What's The Point of Doing Uchikomi
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.พ. 2025
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people don't understand the video. first of all, koreans are not known for doing incredible uchi matas lol, and i doubt that these guy from hanpantv did a single uchi mata at the olympics. the way he is doing it is not even the way japanese or uchi mata players actually do uchi mata in competition, which is getting the head and body bent over and then throw the leg in the middle while pulling in a circular motion (he is not even throwing with the leg, he is using the hips mostly). his understanding of the technique is very poor, at least from what i saw in the video. uchi komi has a value, which is teaching the basic movement of the technique, like getting that leg high and understanding the "pendulum" movement. the point is you are never gonna replicate the technique in a drill EXACTLY how you are gonna do it in randori. even for safety reasons and continous movement and training uchikomi and nagekomi is taught that way. the best in the world do it for a reason, if it was useless they would simply not do it, because their goal is to improve and be the best, you guys think that top athletes like to waste time?
I nodded my head like seven times reading this
Your first point is an ad hominem. You might think that his solution makes things worse or that his uchimata is terrible, but these do not logically undermine his view that one should practice in a way closer to competitive execution rather than practicing traditional uchikomi. You might think Harasawa's suggestion is better (who is surely an uchimata expert), for instance, but are you not then agreeing that traditional uchikomi is not optimal, as Harasawa suggests? (Though I think HanpanTV, although not an expert in uchimata, understands and can execute the uchimata you have described: th-cam.com/video/Sla6eRiSnJQ/w-d-xo.html )
I am not sure I understanding what you mean by "safety reasons and continuous movement". I don't see how modifying traditional uchikomi such that they are closer to competition form - all else being equal - would produce such concerns. If they are safe when done with full force in competition, how can they be more dangerous when done with a co-operative uke with less force?
I agree that uchikomi has value in learning the basic movement, especially for beginners. (Another advantage is that two beginners can understand basic judo principles and then practice with each other easily.) But the more interesting question is, once you can do the traditional uchikomis well, is there any value in spending your time to drill them to perfection (like practicing 1000 uchikomis in practice)? Or would it be better to spend your time practicing a more competitive version or even just do more randori at different intensities? (Assuming of course that your goal is to improve at randori/competitions.) As you noted, uchimata in competition involves getting uke's head down and body bent over. But in traditional uchikomi, we lift uke up and foward so that uke is on their toes, and your right forearm and elbow stay close to uke's right armpit area (in aiyotsu), which is not the case in competition. (th-cam.com/video/HZJcx2ppyB4/w-d-xo.html ) These are clearly two different movements. Why, then, do you think doing 1000 traditional uchimata uchikomi would improve your execution of uchimata in competition, compared to simply practicing the actual movement you use in competition, or something as close to this as possible? (Btw, how many judo instructional, especially older ones, even tell you this? Is this not another valid issue HanpanTV has raised?)
Your last point is weak. Remember the London Olympics when Japan ranks fourth in the medal table? Is it because they fell off their traditonal uchikomi practice? Of course, top athletes do not want to waste their time, but IF they thought traditional uchikomi is useful when IN FACT it is not then they would have wasted their time despite not wanting to do so. This argument hinges on the assumption that top Japanese athletes KNOW FOR A FACT that uchikomi is useful, and the evidence for this seems to boil down to Japanese Judo players are the best - which is not true of all time period or all categories anyway. This fact cannot eliminate the possibility that, without uchikomi practice, they would still be just as good. Furthermore, the effectiveness of uchikomi as a training method is a question of causality which you simply cannot observe from limited experience. (It is not like asking a top player how to do their judo techniques, which is a technical question.) To give you a bodybuilding analogy, if you want to build muscle you should listen to various reputable exercise scientists (who are not and *need not* be super-jacked but have done the studies to determine causal relations), not to winners of Mr. Olympia (who can only speak of his own personal experience). As exercise science in the past two decades has shown, many of these bro routines and theories are not optimal or time-efficient (though they can still work if people are dedicated.) Similarly, I don't think uchikomi is useless, but it is probably sub-optimal and not time-efficient.
@wclay it's not an ad hominem argument to point out that a guy doesn't make much sense in his speech. hanpantv pointed out that uchi mata should be practiced exactly as it is done in randori/competition, but he doesn't do it in the video shown here. Maybe he can do it, I'm not saying he can't, but the way he makes "uchi komi" is not how it's done. I'm not sure if Harasawa actually says uchi komi and nage komi is useless, but still, Harasawa is probably good at uchi mata because of uchi komi. I'm not saying that only the Japanese, EVERY player in the world does uchi komi, nage komi, etc., it's something that all high level athletes do. I have never seen the IJF IMPOSE how athletes should train, you have no real evidence for that. I think uchi komi is useful to understand "kuzushi" or imbalance, to feel that uke should go towards you, tori should not go towards uke, you have to understand that judo techniques are very complicated. Shintaro Higashi posted a video that explains this better, but when you're doing randori or competing, there are a lot of positions and not all opponents move the same way. There are ai yotsu and kenka yotsu, but there are also people who bent over more, or people that are more up right, etc. going by that logic, also no one just stands there and lets you throw them.
by safety i meant that you are not gonna land on top of the guy like you are competing you know? more advanced players for sure also drill techniques in a more similar way on how they do it in a fight, but you cant tell this to a beginner, someone is gonna get hurt most likely.
top athletes do uchi komi for many reasons, one of them is warming up, other exercises are to get more strength, explosiveness and so on in the movements, that's the way i see it.
and judo is not the only grappling art that uses this type of training, wrestlers and jiujitsu players also do some type of drilling.
@@wclay and before yoy say wrestling or jiu jitsu drill in a more realistic way, not that much. i have done freestyle wrestling, and for example how i've been taught to do a double is not the same as how many people including myself do it. usually in wrestling they teach you to always have your posture up, get your trail leg etc, but most athletes don't shoot that way in competition, they even shoot with both knees on the ground. same with other movements, in jiu jitsu they flow roll, which is not a realistic way to fight, but it has some value.
also keep in mind that every body is different, muneta for example had an uchi mata that had the elbow on the inside, lipartiliani has a different one, and so on. there has to be a traditional or standard way to do techniques, because everyone does it different, even japanese, hagas uchi mata is not the same as murao's for example, murao dosent even do a clean entry, he usually puts the leg in there and starts hopping.
so yeah, pretty much every art has their type of drilling that is "unrealistic", its a learning tool, and also a way to remind you the basic movements, get more strength and speed in those movements and so on.
It's harasawa that's making the point of doing this. And when ono anx maruyama does it they don't lift with their arms.
What HanpanTV has done is really healthy: question with arguments. What was said does not completely contradict the practice of uchikomi, because it also talks about correcting the position, repetition of the technique, etc. The Japanese way is not the only one, even if some of us feel admiration for it. I hope that professional judokas can continue to question with arguments what we often accept only by tradition, for the good or for alternatives in the development of oneself.
I still haven’t seen him do 10 clean uchikomi with his method
@@JudoHighlights2015 the man has an Olympic medal
@@JudoHighlights2015 Whether or not HanpanTV can do 10 clean uchikomi with his new method is completely irrelevant. The usefulness of uchikomi as a training method is completely independent of whether someone can think of (or execute) a better alternative. (It's not as if he would be right if he can do what you said.) A bad method is still a bad method in the absence of better alternatives. Though your answer makes me think of another reason why uchikomi might be popular - it is aesthetically pleasing when done well.
@@JudoHighlights2015 The man's an Olympic medalist. Then doesn't it mean one don't require clean uchikomis to become top athelete?
HanpanTV has been on a mission to increase effectiveness and efficiency of how judo is practiced by recreational players for a long time now and only recently started trying to spread their view in English. I would just like to share some context around why they are on this mission so people know they mean well regardless of their opinion on uchi komi / their approach.
*1. They want recreational players to make progress quickly.* In their closing remarks in th-cam.com/video/9FQNnny3W7g/w-d-xo.htmlsi=pZkck0hT7JQsZ9ka&t=1031, they discuss how elite players get plenty of randori to synthesize uchi komi to a more effective form but recreational players don't get the same opportunity. They believe by teaching throws in form more alike the ones seen in randori, recreational players can learn faster and have more fun.
*2. They want people to avoid unnecessary injuries.* In th-cam.com/video/tX3eXfdUIs0/w-d-xo.htmlsi=gCnblXDvP94eaeqs, they discuss the possible injuries from trying to pull up the sleeve. Similarly, in th-cam.com/video/fR8m5b2IMIc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=VgKb9q5hIyeVkxjb, they discuss the possible injuries from certain placements of the elbow in seoi nage.
*3. They have a different view on what it means to create off balance.* In th-cam.com/video/iZz1GFOTFKI/w-d-xo.htmlsi=stVVE59LCQAVpUy9, they discuss what they believe to be the correct application of kuzushi, whether it's by placing tori's body in the way or by forcing it by grip fighting. As far back as 2018, they've been encouraging people to practice uchi mata by pushing down and rotating: th-cam.com/video/Sla6eRiSnJQ/w-d-xo.htmlsi=_vHRPaiLoX7a-ktU&t=660
Long time fan of both channels. Super excited people are having this conversation and taking a moment to reflect.
My big hangup is that practically all the senseis I know insist that the Uchi-Komi is how you're supposed to throw people in randori/shiai... when you basically never see it like that. This is why it takes so long for people to figure things out- most of us won't even figure out the 'competition' way, and when we do we often get corrected and told that its wrong.
I think Uchi-Komi is akin to the boxing speed bag- a great exercise that hones in on the specifics of technique. But if you tried to teach someone speed bag mechanics as the way you actually punch someone in a boxing match, they're not going to do well at all. For me, the Tsurikomi Uchi-Komi stuff is the same- its good at imparting particular ideas and imprinting certain mechanics you wouldn't refine with the 'comp' style... but it should not be taught as the way you'd throw someone for real.
IMO, senseis should actually teach the 'comp' style as the basics, and treat the Uchikomi as more of an isolation drill.
Where are you from?
@@TheNEOverse Good point, I agree.
@ Australia, I have trained under a variety of guys before. A national team coach, senseis from Yong-In University, a sensei from Japan.
They all tend to gravitate towards the conventional pedagogy of Judo and while I'd say they've been a great help overall, I have... seen some conflicting uchikomi things.
My latest teaches the normal way, but also suggests different ways, sometimes outright saying uchi-komi isn't the same.
There was a time when O-soto Gari never worked for me until I watched a specific Grappling Kingdom video and started gravitating towards that style. O-soto Gari is now my bread and butter. This has spurred me to believe there really is something wrong with standard Uchi-Komi.
Yeah! i regret clicking the video this time. I agree with the korean guy on how necessary for uchikomi to mirror randori not the opposite.
A few points:
1. It was Harasawa - a *Japanese* uchimata expert - who first made a video about this. So even Japanese themselves might be doubtful about uchikomi. (Though they might not say it.)
2. Anecdotal evidence is extremely weak. It is like "bro science" in bodybuilding. Lots of top bodybuilders in the past had used inefficient methods based on untested theories to get to the very top. (All of them are on gear, so it's not a differentiating factor.) Exercise science in the past two decades have shown that many top bodybuilders' "theories" on how to build muscles are wrong and their methods are not optimal.
2a. There are so many factors at play when trying to explain why Japanese players are so good: time spent training, the availability, depth and breath of good training partners and opponents, coaching quality, psychological factors (it might be a kind of feel-good ritual or confidence builder), genetics and talent base, cultural and historical value of judo among Japanese which might make them more dedicated (samurai spirit), etc. Without using a scientific method to investigate the issue, we do not really have much basis to say if uchikomi is optimal or sub-optimal. (To put it simply, it is possible that these top players are as good as they are even if they had only done uchikomi as warm-up.)
2b. Relatedly, Japanese players are only the best in the lighter weight categories. In the heavier weights, they don't do that well - at least they do not dominate there. (This is to be expected, given that the average weight and height of Japanese people are smaller, their talents are more likely to be concentrated in those lighter categories.) If uchikomi is such a wonderful training method that explain Japanese's dominance in the lower weight, why aren't they also dominating in the heavier categories? For example, Miku Takaichi/Tashiro has represented Japan for three consecutive Olympics in -63, so she must be the best Japan has to offer for more than a decade, yet she failed to medal at all three of them! To be fair, she is strong, but not overwhelmingly strong. And I suspect as a Japanese her uchikomi would be miles better than all her European opponents.
3. Given that almost every other sports do not train like that (they train the specific movements they use in competition), it seems the burden of proof is on uchikomi supporters to provide the evidence to explain how it could provide more benefit than training the movement itself. It is very odd to think that to improve motion A, one needs to practice motion B instead. (I am not talking about learning the throw as a beginner, but practicing to improve for competition. I think the uchikomi form is valid for learning the throw. But its value might have been overestimated beyond that purpose.) One might train the actual movement in Judo, for example, by doing randori-lite with a knowledgable and co-operative uki who varies the intensity and form of resistance.
4. I obviously cannot know this, but I suspect many coaches do not even teach the way throws are actually done in competition. Just for example, if you look at most instructional videos on TH-cam or instructional DVDs from Japan, even from legends like Inoue and Yamashita, they ONLY teach you the uchikomi form. There was a video of Yamashita teaching Osotogari and he said use your toes to "grab" the mat by standing on the ball of your supporting foot..... (I am very doubtful about this but who am I to criticize the God of Judo? He must be right!) ... and of course, most people know sooner or later that raising your reaping leg as high as possible (like in traditional uchikomi) when doing Osoto in randori is asking to be countered. You have to look at competition examples to figure out that Osotogari is done differently in competition. (Like not stepping in with your support foot first for Osoto, and not lifting your reaping leg too high.) This is, I think, absurd in other sports. This is a significant issue that HanpanTV has pointed out (not the first). They had a video recently teaching someone how to actually execute Osoto in competition, which I suspect most people don't learn at all in their dojo.
5. HapanTV''s another valid point is that for people who are not professional athletes with limited time to spend on training, uchikomi is not a wise way to spend your training time. Not everyone can spend 6 hours in a dojo. If an amateur who starts judo late wants to get good at competition in the least amount of time, how that time is spent is a significant question. Telling them to do more randoori (might) be a better advice than telling them to do 100 uchikomis (even after they can already do it well).
There is no definitive answer now, of course, unless someone starts two training classes with the two different approaches, controlling for all other factors. But it seems to me that, in the absence of such evidence, it would be wiser to not give uchikomi too much weight for reasons I have mentioned above.
It's funny to read comments like "even great champions can't follow Yamashita's technical instructions". Come on... Do you really not understand what is happening? If you pick up Kyohan Judo or any other old judo book, there are no movements that clearly reveal your technique to the opponent before you apply it, such as taking a step forward in the soto gari, stretching your leg forward, or trying to pulling one arm diagonally upwards in an uchi mata. These movements only serve to warn you in advance which technique you are going to use. Yamashita never publicly taught his soto gari to foreigners, nor did Inoue teach his Uchi Mata. Kenji Suzuki is the most honest coach of the Japanese national team in years
@@tonyferraz My O-soto Gari became my strongest move once I realised the regular way was fucking ass as a direct attack. Its good to teach beginners and all, but once I cut the bullshit step out, I was throwing dudes with it.
I only use the 'traditional' way as a followup to either sticky Ko-soto or ken ken O-uchi Gari.
@@TheNEOverse The people who say that the traditional way is good are the same people who can't apply the most basic moves in randori. They think Yamashita is the best in history, but they don't realize that the Soto Gari he applies is very different from the one he teaches. The O Soto gari that Yamashita teaches is a mockery, it's amazing that they take it seriously
@ Oh my senseis are good and they vouch for the traditional way... but I legitimately never see them do it that way live. They have just kinda ingrained the idea of it without realising what they actually do is different.
At least one straight up told me that comp style and uchi-komi style are different though, and its put me on a better path.
@@tonyferraz It would be harsh to say it is mockery or that Yamashita and Inoue is being dishonest. It just seems like a tradition that can be observed in many dojos and that people simply followed in teaching uchikomi only (and indirectly implying that that is how to do it in competition). Yamashita style uchikomi is not uncommon in the past, and still exist today. Judo Highlights have a video a few years ago about the new generation doing a new kind of uchikomi with lower reaping leg (though the basic movement pattern is still the same).
This is an important point that should be discussed. The Japanese are excellent Judoka, but this may not necessarily be due to the high volume of Uchi-Komi practice. From a sports science perspective, Uchi-Komis are closed techniques, comparable, for example, to an athletic discipline, whereas in Randori, we apply throws as open techniques. It is therefore at least questionable why we train using a closed concept but compete using an open concept.
One possible answer is: tradition. Japan is very traditional and, especially in Judo, not necessarily innovative in teaching. Modern methodology is only slowly making its way into Japanese training. It’s no coincidence that people like Ono or Inoue come to Europe to train as coaches.
Honestly more than anything this is why the Japanese are good at Judo. Not specifically because of Uchi-Komi, but because of their sheer volume of training. They do plenty of Uchi-Komi, but will also get even more time for randori and shiai.
My two cents: I think there is a disconnect between the understanding of uchikomi. People think it is meant to train the techniques. Like "do 1000 uchimata uchikomi and then you can do uchimata." That's not necessarily true. Uchikomi is at its fundamental level exercise. When judo started resistance training wasn't common so they likely came up with ways to get stronger. Big movements for uchikomi develop strength. If we just said "we do uchikomi to build strength for our throws while saving our bodies from getting thrown" there wouldn't be this war on uchikomi.
Plus, show me a guy who has done millions of uchikomi, and I'll show you a guy who knows how to work the jacket.
Yeah I can see that. You mean kinda like resistance training with bands, right? Yeah that’s probably the most reasonable response I’ve seen.
Pulling up doesn't work because the main muscle used for that is the posterior delt, which is not a very big or strong muscle, thus why pulling towards you or down makes more sense
You use your legs to pull, not your arms
@@JudoHighlights2015 I meant the whole "look at your watch" thing. Some traditions have meaning, some others don't. Ppl used to believe that doing hundreds of push ups, squats, etc was optimal training, now we know it's not like that
I agree, and in order to pull up you have to extend yourself which biomechanically is less efficient. You are always stronger the closer you are to your body.
It's amazing that even the smartest people can be blinded by tradition. Following what the best do is not the path of judo taught by Kano, the path is to clearly understand the principles that govern the art and use your mental and physical energy in the best possible way. If "traditional" uchi komi (not the kuzushi) does not have a good justification for efficiency, it should be discarded. Ono, Inoue, Yamashita and other Japanese champions clearly teach very different moves than the ones they actually use, and I'm sure they do it on purpose. Chadi knows little technically about almost everything he comments on. I belong to BJJ, with 6 months of study focused on principles and efficiency I have already defeated judô black belt competitors. As long as judokas do not follow the principles of judo, it will always be very easy for those who follow these principles to control them.
When you discover why Yamashita and Inoue only apply o soto gari laterally but teach it frontally, and insist that you don't turn sideways, you will be closer to understanding judo, which is very different from doing what the best apparently do.
There are many factors that make the Japanese the best in the world. It is not necessarily the high practice of Uchi-Komi, which can only come from tradition.
Many high-level gyms do few Uchi-Komi. So I do not think they are essential. What I find essential, which also unites high-level gyms is the high number of randori.
Personally I find that it is almost always more useful to do randori instead of Uchi-Komi
Something eye-opening was FluidJudoTV's video on their Uchi-Mata. They straight up said that the regular one don't work and they had to slowly realise the real version after ages of randori.
Judo needs to develop and evolve... or really it needs to go back. No one was doing this in Mifune's day, their technique has no pulling up motion.
What do you have to say to Harasawa and his contention with the basic methods then? Shintaro Higashi agrees with HanpanTV as well.
When I'm seeing hobbyist BJJers coming into Judo dojos hitting 'incorrect Uchi-Matas' while our novices struggle to even apply it, there is something deeply wrong. The traditional method is a fine training tool, but why are we not teaching our guys the way you'd actually throw someone? Why must we have such a pointless learning curve?
I really recommend the video from judomat lab and their take on Uchi Mata. One of the best channels for judo techniques. Sadly they dont produce more.
@@terrykim2748 Whizzer kick is the Uchi-Mata yep.
As far as I am aware, Head and Arm throw is more like Koshi Guruma.
I use BJJ guys because they're shittier takedown grapplers and I feel more embarrassed seeing them do Judo better than us than the beasts who actually specialise in takedowns.
@@MatthewNguyen-zx3de I dont care much for the Gi, as I find even different fitting Gis changes the throwing mechanics. The best principles I have encountered for executing throws have been from freestyle wrestlers. Gripping systems makes Judo far too complicated.
One of the factors Judo has become popular(Edit: and prevailed over other martial arts) in Japan was because it had most efficient practice methodology compared to other similar martial arts like Ju-Jutsu.
At the time in Japan, Judo was only the martial art that could frequently sparring, because other martial arts techniques were too dangerous to perform in open situation. So Randori has been the main source of growth. This can be vouched by recently released video from Kaihan Takagi(Two blonze medals in IJF Grand Prix). He said he did Randori 6mins 10 round everyday while his 6 years in Tokai Junior high/high school.
"More Uchikomi you do, the better you good at Judo" maybe true, but more Randori, more strength it'll give it to you.
While Uchikomi is not entirely useless tool, the gap of mechanics between Uchikomi and actual fights are too huge to ignore. I am super thankful to Hanpan TV raised this as a topic to develop Judo.
I see some Judo influencers are taking it as personal attack, while Kaihan does agree to what Hanpan says.
Uchikomi teaches the mechanics of the throws, excellent exercise as well, and allows us eventually to think about each and every millisecond of a technique...only through many thousands of uchikomi drills does it get embedded so that during randori/shiai it looks pretty good 😊
Minute 5:55 look at how he throws that guy... he is pulling to him and down while before in the uchikomi he was raising is hand to the sky... I think it all in that...
He’s trying to pull him up, but there is resistance
@JudoHighlights2015 correct! And in randori, you ve got a lot of resistance... that is why it is almost impossible to replicate the standard uchikomi.
I did judo at a local club for a couple years while I was at university, and uchikomi always felt like a complete waste of time. The only time I ever got better at a throw was when I'd finally caught someone with it in randori, and I was able to get a feel for the timing, positioning, and mechanics. I always did tons of uchikomi for throws that I wanted to get good at, but it never seemed to make a difference. I only ever really improved over time at the handful of techniques that tended to work for me in randori. You could probably make the argument that I wasn't doing the uchikomi properly, but no one ever corrected me while I was doing it.
It's just so important to build the muscle memory and getting used to those movements; the big exaggerations of uchikomi help to adjust and even minimize those movements in a practical setting.
Started off with a logical fallacy (appeal to authority) to set up another (strawman). Bad takes here. Stick to highlights and your arguments are flawed.
I agree with hanpan TV. In boxing, kickboxing, BJJ, wrestling, you train the technique how you do it in real life. The only thing uchikomi is good for is warming up.
So why are the people who do the most uchikomi at the top of the sport?
Another question, how do you practice 100s of “real life” techniques. Do we just do 100s of nagekomi instead?
@JudoHighlights2015 I think this is a case of correlation =/= causation. I think Japanese players are the best for other reasons. Their huge player depth, funding and coaching mainly rather than anything they do specifically. Rationally speaking hanpan TV point makes sense when I think about my experiences with other martial arts and sports
@@JudoHighlights2015 We already do it in Judo when we study positions and options from those positions. My uchi and tai otoshi that I do in randoori looks nothing like the classical ones and the only times I've done classical ones is from passing a grade or practicing to pass a grade.
Literally false, boxing and kickboxing do isolated drills in addition to integrated ones. They are absolutely doing repetition drills.
Agree! It is so important! We do it a lot every practice on the low end minimum 500 left and right
Uchikomi is for your muscle to absorb the movement and it must become an automatism as much as possible you do not have to think about doing a throw it must come natural for your body to do that movement
Plus it is exausting doing so many series and that's very important to become more strong or cut weight
Thank you!
I agree fully. Uchi komi is a way to train your muscle memory by repeatedly drilling movement patterns akin to judo throws (in a way that is faster and less tiring than nage komi). Certain aspects of the throw that tend to be weak or sloppy are exaggerated (e.g. looking at your 'watch' for uchi mata or stamping your second/support foot hard in the ground to 'load the spring') to improve those aspects. It also trains fast body rotation (tai sabaki) which is essential in randori and shiai/competition, as well as stepping patterns and foot positioning.
As both a wrestler (first) then judoka, absolutely believe uchikomi is essential but for uchimata/haraigoshi/ etc it never made sense to me coming from doing hip throws in wrestling the way it’s done chest to chest lifting both arms like doing a lateral raise shoulder work out. I do believe in fundamentals but also believe uchikomi should be tailored to the way you do the technique live. Look at your watch? Absolutely. I specialized in ippon seoi though and with the hand on lapel and uchikomi for that was a no brainer the traditional way. For osoto, I like to turn the uke into it and attack the sweeping leg from the side, so for that uchikomi I don’t like to do it front chest to chest, I like to turn the uke a bit.
The amount of repetition it allows for however is also essential as well as muscle memory. It’s something wrestling could benefit from. And to whom who said the exaggerated form it not replicated in striking practice I would say is false in that it’s not an apples to apples comparison but you want to perfect form in striking practice hitting the mits as you won’t always get perfect form live so if your form is off in hitting mitts, it’s gonna be worse live. The repetition is also similar I think to what it enables live.
In kickboxing, you are rarely going to hit 10 round house kicks in a row live but it sure makes sense to drills or hit the pads in that form of repetition.
So uchikomi is essential I think but to what extent and how you do it can be customized.
Doing Uchikomi will help to form the movement of your favorite technique, while doing Uchikomi you may (may not ) realize to short a step of your movement ( 2 steps Uchimata to one step Uchimata , suggest to watch Kosei Inoue’s highlight .
With the thought of "if the best do it, you must do the same" is flawed thinking. Generations improve at a sport due to trying new things and building on their own ideas in terms of training which reflects performance. Judo hardly improves technically through generations in contrast to every other sport why? because of tradition. People say " oh I did uchikomi my whole life and i am successful". Maybe 90% of your success is due to randori or nage komi and uchikomi slowed your progress. I believe without uchikomi you can improve at a faster rate and therefore be a better version. Wrestlers drill the full takedown, BJJ athletes drill the whole technique, but because judo is hard on the body uchi komi allows for more practice with less damage on the uki (but now we have crash mats so who cares). I think uchikomi hurts more than helps.
The more I follow this dialogue, the more I just think this boils down to TH-cam largely being an English-speaking platform that reflects (broadly) Western thinking.
Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but American martial artists, for example, almost universally value victory. I don’t see much concern put into the methods of victory so long as it is consistent, sport-legal, and trainable.
Japanese Judoka (and actually many people here tend to be like this across tons of hobbies) care far, far more about the “how,” victory is sort of a happy byproduct. Just as an example, I see a lot more Judoka talking about how to properly “express” their Judo. Given this trend, a win through undesirable means is often something a Japanese Judoka is going hate just as much as a loss. The ideal goal seems to be “victory through perfect application of technique.”
To that end, Uchi Komi is essentially the study of an idealized technique. Of course, it goes beyond that; one can use Uchi Komi to isolate components of training, too-entry, Kumi Kata, etc.
I’ve seen a lot of interesting takes on this topic. I know, for instance, a lot of people bring up Shintaro Higashi more or less agreeing with HappanTV, but Shintaro also teaches Americans. As an American myself, I’m acutely familiar with how little Americans cherish tradition in martial arts spaces, never really devote much attention to why traditional ideas might exist, and just sort of want to skip to the end where you’re cratering people. Uchi Komi, in an American context, broadly isn’t going to be considered “fun,” and, given that, we could argue it’s less effective a learning tactic there.
Having said that, it is Japan-not America or Korea or anywhere else-that sits atop the Judo world. While Uchi Komi isn’t the only factor in Japanese success, I question the logic for people coming down so hard on it recently. At the end of the day, it is demonstrably a piece of a highly effective Judo development strategy.
I’d never argue for making Uchi Komi some gigantic piece of classes or something, but I increasingly feel like the recent discourse being more about culture-specific training preferences than a conversation about Uchi Komi’s place in Judo. I guess I’ll be more open to these suggestions when the Japanese are thoroughly toppled from their Judo hegemony. Until then… maybe the uses of Uchi Komi are worth meditating on.
I’ve done judo in Japan for 15 years somewhat successfully with just uchikomi and randori so I’m biased
@@JudoHighlights2015I’ve experienced Judo mostly in America, but I’ve done a few years of it in Japan. I “get” the perspective people are pushing with the whole “that’s not how it really happens in randori” thing, but, idk, it just seems like an “Internet martial arts”-ism to me. Everyone is is a rush to get good while conveniently failing to acknowledge how few of us actually ever get all that good.
I can only rail against the cult of optimization so much, I guess. I just think the core issue here is that the best Judo country in the world-full stop-preaches Uchi Komi. If this is truly a conversation about results, then I feel like it stops with that realization. But that’s just me.
Right on spot brother!
Explain Harasawa please.
Oh dear, people (mostly Western people!) need to stop "fetishizing" (for want of a better word) Eastern cultures as some kind of superior(?) "Other" (like being in harmony with Nature; emphasis on process and not outcome, holistic thinking, more in tune with their inner self, etc.). Do you really think the Japanese don't care about winning an Olympic gold medal but only about the HOW? Do you know the All Japan Judo Federation suspended a national children competition a few years ago precisely because of this win-at-all cost attitude instilled to children from a young age?
Btw, Judo Highlights himself had made an observation years ago about how most Japanese people treat Judo as a modern sport (like baseball), not as some kind of martial art instilled with some "philosophy of life", contrary to what many Westerners think.
To me, uchi komi is about building a deep and personal connection to a given technique. Every repetition is almost an affirmation of saying to yourself, "I'm an uchi mata guy," or whatever throw you're focusing on.
By building that deep connection, you are conditioning your mind and body to seek out opportunities to execute that particular technique in randori and shiai.
The fact that your uchi mata or whatever looks different in uchi komi and randori is irrelevant. Of course it does - under active resistance and the threat of being countered.
But the fact you can spot and go for those fleeting opportunities is the direct result of what is often a lifelong commitment to that specific technique.
It's like powerlifting. When you go for a PB, of course your technique breaks down under the burden of the weight. However, it's the hundreds and thousands of perfect, easier reps you have done that enable you to complete that particular lift.
I'm not sure sports science has much to say about developing a 'spiritual connection' to your judo.
Uchikomi is also a good way of breaking down a technique step by step and getting to be fluid with it before trying to execute the whole technique in randori. Yes it can still be tailored to the actual way it’s executed live but there is also a difference I think in uchikomi between the quick rapid fire way and full commitment which I believe is both done at high levels.
When I started kickboxing for example, it was wild to me to not break down the footwork and body trajectory of the punches and kicks or how little attention is paid to it and then just start hitting the pads with the ugliest form and having such difficulty performing them. My bag partners sometimes comment how weak I’m htiting the pads at first while I am warming up or trying to get the form right before I start blasting away.
Do all judo teachers tell you to look at your watch?
Mine do lol. And then come randori, they're all pulling right into their belts.
Pretty much yes. I think the difference is between the start of the throw (kuzushi) and the tsukuri and kake where the wrist does not have to be high anymore (but those arent drilled with uchi komi).
Only 99%
@ Those are not even explained in general. I had one sensei teach the odd 'wrist to the belt' style and I had a double take... but he explained this is more similar to no-gi style and actually twists your uke around more.
I got to watching all the Uchi-Mata guys and this is also how they do it. Looking at your watch ain't it.
@TheNEOverse looking at your watch and pulling the wrist to the belt are not mutaly exclusive. Even If you think allowing your wrist to come to your belt is better(it's not), pushing the top of the wrist to your belt will always extend him more than if you push his palm to your belt. So you look at the watch either way, and it is also instruction on how your head should move during the throw. Even in no gea wrist control, you would grab over his hand, preferably.
Uchi komi is required to develop fluid and precise movement. Doing a complicated throw like morote sei-onage requires placing your body in the right place at the right time. Only then you can achieve an effortless and fast throw. When you do Uchi komi you need to do the kuzushi to break the opponents balance. In randori you cannot pull out the opponent like you do in uchi-komi. Doing this in randori maybe only works if you are 20kgs heavier than your opponent. In randori you need to create a situation,a short moment, where the opponent leans forward and at this moment you swiftly have to enter the throw. This quick entering you can only practice by means of uchi-komi. Just watch the kodokan videos of tadahiro nomura where he explains his seionage.
I think uchikomi is mostly useless (sorry)
I think this debate ties into a larger question of how to teach skills. Imagine a math classroom, like the one I teach. Do we teach students to solve abstract math problems, like finding the slope of a line, in the hope that they will be able to generalize that skill to the wider world where many things are described by slopes? Or do we create a project-based curriculum where students are asked to build machines or create art or imagine businesses in the hope that they will discover the skills that they ought to learn? There's no clear answer.
In my opinion, uchikomi is like doing lots of math problems. It's traditional, and people do learn judo/math that way, but there are new approaches that we're discovering that may (or may not) be more effective in developing effective martial artists/citizens.
I do however believe that judo instructors need to do a better job of explaining the difference between the basic uchikomi variation versus the competition version to give the big picture to aspiring judokas. Case in point almost every standing ippon seio player does it like Koga with the split leg but I would never teach this variant to a beginner who doesn't have proper posture and kuzushi. What's the point? It'll probably further confuse them.
Glad that you are touching on this. I completely agree with you that if the best in the world are doing this, then there must be something to it. I have been thinking a lot about what exactly that is that makes uchi komi effective given that it has come under scrutiny in parts of the online judo community. It seems like the new hot thing that has poured over from bjj is this "ecological approach" to training. Which i definitely think has its merits, but my understanding of this is that part of this movement seems to say things like drilling and uchi komi are not practical and are only useful for teaching brand new white belts the basic ideas of a technique. For judo, i do not agree with this mainly because speed and precision are such critical aspects of successfully throwing someone. When these factors are critical, having more reps in uchi komi is one of the best ways to develop these skills, in my opinion. You are developing the muscle memory of all of these details that go into a throw so that you can move quickly without thinking about all of these details. Just like a basketball player practices their shooting ability. I never hear anyone say you should only practice shooting a basketball with a defender guarding you as they would be in a game. Similarly, you dont hear people say if the shot sometimes looks different than the fundamental shooting form then why practice the fundamental shooting form.
I believe this discussion is about "The Lies Behind Judo Basics" from HanpanTV.
th-cam.com/video/_M9GTgz41lQ/w-d-xo.htmlsi=-TDXS2H7Q_WIEVIT
Also, they do have a drill, called Hanpan Drill that is optimal for actual competitions. Works perfect for me, especially person with injured shoulder. I hope you give it a go and share feedback!
PS, that is not Cho Junho LOLLLLLLLLLLLL. That's his twin brother.
Where is the drill ?
@JudoHighlights2015 At their membership channel
What you say halfway the video is indeed for me the main reason to do uchi komi, namely that you exaggerate an ideal movement as it will decrease massively when doing competition.
Hi Judo Highlights - I watch all your videos, but could you consider refferering the channels/videos you are using in the video description? I really would love that.
Yes I can
You're a great guy!
Haha.. I can't wait for Hanpan's response video. Their Chadi response clip made me laugh for 32 hours straight
Link? Can't say I've seen it
th-cam.com/video/HxpjgJQ9J_4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=L9KbM0IbRRnC88WE 😂
@@genius_7152 video is blocked in Japan! What!!!
@@JudoHighlights2015 Ah yeah, it's blocked in Japan. Try using vpn. It's worth it.
What happens if newcomers do not do uchikomi? No muscle memory, no breaking balance, dangerous techniques.
Uchikomi is to warm up, it’s the best method when opponent isn’t resisting, you also train boxing by punching a sandbag, do you think it’s effective against an opponent who knows how to block?
One of the big issues with uchikomi that isn't addressed in the current conversation is that it gives people the false idea that they are supposed to throw someone that isn't moving. The two most common ways that I've seen uchikomi practiced are static (Uke never moves) and dynamic (Uke generally moving/walking in a single direction the entire time: forward, backward, sideways, etc.) When Tori then goes and spars, they are looking for these two situations. They quickly realize that no one moves in the dynamic way (moving in a straight line for more than two steps at a time without stiff arming Uke), so they then default to looking for situations in which Uke isn't moving at all. They think, based on all the uchikomi they've trained into their bodies, that Uke needs to be standing absolutely still before they try and throw them.
This is in direct contradiction to how every single technique is laid out in Jirgoro Kano's own work "Kodokan Judo". Every single technique in that book follows a pattern: make Uke move, break Uke's balance, while Uke is recovering their balance by stepping, throw them as they step into your throw. To paraphrase that books description of Uchi Mata: both Tori and Uke are in the right natural posture (right foot forward, left foot back), grab Uke's collar a little higher then usual, use your collar grip to pull Uke to their left front corner [this is not a large pull upward: just pull your hand to your shoulder], this pull forces Uke to step forward on their left foot in order to maintain their balance (you're pulling along the line perpendicular to their base; they have to step), while they are stepping, enter for uchimata by cross stepping your left foot behind your right, as their left foot touches the ground, reap their inner left thigh (not the front of it) with the back of your right thigh.
Why do you think the entries to throws are emphasized so much more than the finishing mechanics? Is it mainly because taking full throws is hard on the body?
Entry is the most important part
dumb take
Does being lefty give you any type of advantage in judo? Should I train my techniques from the left side?
I think its completely valid to discuss where the cutoff is on the usefulness of uchikomi or when you start to see diminishing return on your time investment, but anybody who says uchi komi isnt useful is full of it
shohei ono does uchi komi but it is not the way he really learned Judo. All player who get any good at fighting develop their skill in randori.
To certain people: you don't need to mention someone is a bronze medalist, it's known and it doesn't matter, discuss reasons, not identities.
If he thinks his approach is better or should replace the traditional one, he hasn't done anything yet to make himself convincing on that point
Uchi komi is the dea...the fundamenta. Randori is the expression of that idea.
My opinion, uchikomi is about muscle memory. Practice the grip, and the throw. At a young age, through practice you never forget, it becomes automatic. Later on, you develop a style.
"one of the greatest sounds in the world" 🤣🤣🤣👍👍👍 And I make music too😉 Believe it or not: I also enjoyed falling.
Crazy reactions here. People keep saying "breaking tradition is a good thing" and that uchikomi should mirror randori or competition. How do yall think the best were taught? How do you think HanPan was taught? Dollars to donuts it was NOT the way he's showing in the videos.
Just mirroring the top level competitors is not going to help anyone of us do better judo. Their movements, their familiarity with their bodies while doing their techniques have all been refined and adjusted to fit their individual style. But its all born from the same "traditional" techniques. My favorite player is Hashimoto, i take a lot from him - but i have to dial it back and rebuild what i learn from how he fights back from a foundation of traditional technique because **im not Hashimoto.** I dont have the amount or level of training, i dont have his build or way of controlling my body. Likewise he doesnt have my injuries, my thought processes when learning judo my tendencies or physical preferences for certain set ups or techniques. Inherently, i cannot get the same amount of value out of copying his uchikomi.
But we both started with the traditional way of doing the techniques. They arent the way we'll do them in competition but they are both the foundation and the horizon by which we can build and guide the development of our styles.
Exactly. When I do uchikomi, I'm not thinking about "pulling up". One day I might be working on getting my hips lower, or really using my legs to create kuzushi. Some days I'm really focused on chest to chest contact, and others what my hand and wrist are doing. These movements all develop in some way in randori, even if it's not a one to one copy.
People can't seem to understand the point of HanpanTV's video. You are mostly attacking a straw man. No one makes the argument that 1. breaking tradition (for its own sake) is a good thing, 2. you should copy one-to-one the exact movement of specific professional athletes, 3. no one is making the absurd claim that athletes do not have individual adaptations in their throws, or that you shouldn't have your own individual adaptations of throws.
Hanpan's point is that the way (some) judo throws are taught (in their standard uchikomi form) just don't work in competition. This is most obvious in Uchimata or Osotogari. In fact, Osotogari makes a much better example. It is very commonly taught (almost all Japanese instructionals except e.g. Ono seminar) that you should first step in with your supporting leg and position it next to uke's to-be-reaped leg in Aiyotsu. *They don't say anything more beyond that.* You simply cannot execute this version of Osotogari in randori/competition. Can you really call it the "correct" basic form of Osotogari? Now, I know judo is more than competition. So it is "correct" in the sense that this is how it has always been demonstrated. However, from a competition perspective, this is clearly wrong. You should NEVER step in deep as your first step. This is not about individual adaptation. Why can't we teach a basic competitive form of osotogari that actually works so that student can actually have a good chance of performing the throw in randori instead of having to figure it out by themselves (or some seniors tell them in private)?
This is also Harasawa's point about the mechanics of the standard uchikomi you almost always see when a Japanese demoes it. It is a lifting movement that turns the throw into hanegoshi. The competition version has a different mechanics. I don't see how one can suddenly just know how to do the competitive one if one has only been taught the standard uchikomi and has only practiced that. (The problem is not just limited to the angle of the hikite pull.)
The problem is exacerbated when some instructors even state explicitly certain movements are key points to remember. For example, the pulling up and turning out your wrist movement for Uchimata and the stepping in movement of Osotogari I have just mentioned. Speaking of tradition, many older players demonstrate Osotogari by kicking really high with the reaping leg, and they emphasize this is important. However, you can see many newer players have abandoned this above horizontal kick. Isn't that a good breaking of tradition? IMO, this pulling up movement that is often emphasized (even sometimes exaggerated to the point of pulling above one's head!) is unnecessary in uchimata, in the same way that kicking high is unnecessary in Osotogari uchikomi.
The main issue is not *specifically* about pulling up or pulling down or stepping in or not, but rather the deceptive nature of the standard traditional uchikomi being taught in some throws, along with their instruction. They mislead people into thinking that's how they are done in competition which in fact they are not. I personally don't have a problem with the traditional standard uchikomi because I think it's a simple way for beginners to learn (tho Hanpan might want to eliminate such use cases altogether.) But when big names are teaching their tokuiwaza and for some reason they still continue to demo and teach you the basic form which doesn't work in competition, something is really strange!
@@wclay I totally agree!
Uchikomis look different from throws because there is a resistance during randori throws but not in uchikomis.
Your first argument is plain wrong. You say thank”if the best are doing it you should probably doing it too” now on the surface it seems like a reasonable statement but the problem is the worst are also doing the same thing.
Can someone point me in the direction of uchi chibas videos? It would be nice to have references of the clips you have use. Thanks. Also I apologise if I spelt the name wrong
I have never seen a judoka who doesn't have crisp uchikomi with good kuzushi, posture, and feet placement who were any good. However after you have reached a certain level of efficiency and understanding with your uchikomi, I don't think one needs to do an inordinate amount of repetitions. I may preview and explain the differences but I would be hesitant to teach the competition variation of a throw to a person who can't do a basic uchikomi. To try to do so would be idiotic in 99.99% of the case because they most likely lack the confidence, rotational speed, basic body positioning and etc. to make the competitive versions work.
Do you know how much weight Ono did in the Video of hid Clean?
いきなりドンマイ川端とロマンス秋本の打ち込みって(笑)
面白いかなと思いました、笑笑
One thing I haven’t seen in the comments is the recognition of body mechanics. Everyone moves and applies the waza differently. I do agree with training big movements as once resistance is applied those movements do become much much smaller. Also part of being a black belt is you have the technical knowledge, but now you get to make it your own. No two sensei teach exactly the same and they find techniques and tools depending on a variety of situations. So training large uchikomi makes a lot of sense but it’s not the only path. One destination but many paths.
All the problems I see with my athletes can be most easily and permanently fixed by correcting how they perform uchikomi. Not starting throws with their hands is the number one issue. Kids that don't exaggerate pulling upwards for their kuzushi in uchikomi invariably pull their opponent down on top of themselves during randori and shiai. The kids who have good form in uchikomi get their opponents off balance and get underneath them.
Yes!
Are you being obtuse on purpose? You saw the traction Chadi's video had and decided to also post your rage bait to milk the algorithm? I am asking because it is difficult to believe even you aren't able to grasp what is being discussed and the point the "HanpanTV guy" - an olympic bronze medalist and one of South Korea's most successful judoka in history - is trying to make.
There are plenty other Olympic medalists who disagree
@@barryhudson4238 I was alluding to the fact that he's being disrespectful by calling Cho Jun-ho, "the HanpanTV guy". Quite a disrespectful way to address someone that has accomplished more in the sport than he could ever dream of.
As to who's right and who's wrong - at this point I don't really care what this dude or anyone else thinks.
Since I started watching the brothers' videos, my skills increased three fold, my regular pains from training went away, and everyone I train with is stumped at my progress rate, so I know who I'm listening to lol.
@@Bl2EAKIN once he says he feels disrespected by being called the hanpan guy you might have a cause but try not to get offended on other people’s behalf
@@barryhudson4238what a weird reply you’ve come up with…
We all like judo, please keep the respect between us, even if you disagree
You have to start somewhere. Learn the fundamentals. Look at Larry Bird for example, drilled the fundamentals.
Who?
kosei innoui actually
His hand is off his body in each competition throw.
The comments on this video are crazy
@@JudoHighlights2015 I know I don’t get it!
When making bad comment to others, the bad comment also often tells who you truly are.
well, in our club my sensei doesnt believe in uchikomi. thats why everybody's throws look really bad and crappy.
Kawabata’s content is generally very funny, but there’s a lot of truths behind his comedic stunts.
Agreed Uchikomi keeps you fresh, way too many of us are under doing them.
Huh mimi is good
Are you not taking orders for Gis anymore @judohighlights?
No sir