I think the word “debunked” doesn’t mean what you think it means. A better way to state your position would be that we disagree and time will soon tell who was correct. Though I am pretrib, that does not mean that I think believers will escape persecution, history bears that out. After having Twitter conversations with Joel, to be honest I found that any disagreement will find you on the receiving side of insults and divisive language. How about a environment of “we agree to disagree” while still remaining brothers in Christ?
What you described your Twitter conversations wasn't persecution of biblical proportions. I believe he was just trying to warn those of pre-trib beliefs, especially in the West, that it's going to get extremely bad with serious persecution, ie. Being physically tortured, and killed. Possibly watching family be threatened with death or killed in front of you. His warning is valid. How many Christians do you think would stand for Christ under those circumstances, if they believed that they wouldn't be here for it? How many would fall away? There is no reason to take offense, it's something all Christians must think about regardless of their differing opinions. We all should be praying that we are able to stand no matter how we may suffer. The flesh is weak. We must be ready.
I don’t like the equating of Satan’s persecution of the church or even just the world coming against the church and tribulation. I’m pre trib and tired of people saying we’re just fear dodgers. I believe the difference is between true tribulations in the world and the great tribulation that comes form God. That’s the time of Jacob’s trouble, not the churches. Jesus said I will spare you from the hour of trial that comes upon the whole earth.
The biggest issue with pre trib dogma is its almost always tied to Zionism which has nothing to do with biblical prophecy or Christianity at all. It's a deception that germinated and to root in the 19th century
✨I’m a ‘Pre-tribber’ and a Christian who is a Premillennialist. Watched your program because I wanted to hear Joel Richardson’s Post Trib position. Listened to the end. Appreciated that at his opening remarks that he felt it was a premiere pastoral issue and that there was pastoral danger in regard to the PreTrib position. ✨ It was though very grieving to hear him remark at the start too that there was a ‘Cognitive dissonance, almost cultic on the part of the Pre-trib position, that it’s like talking to Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses.’ Don’t understand why he made these ad hominem attacks especially when one considers the respected Godly Christian teachers who hold to the Pre-Trib view like Chuck Missler, Jay Vernon McGee, Andy Woods among others. ✨Although Mr. Richardson made good points specifically on Rev. 3:10 and the dispute over the Galillean and Jewish Wedding difference issue. However, still disagree with his view on Matthew 24, John 14, Acts 1:11, 1 Cor. 15:51-41, 1Thess 4:15-17; these verses I believe strongly support the Pre-Trib position especially in conjunction with Isaiah 2, Daniel 9:20-27, Ezekiel 40-48 among others. ✨And he is clearly wrong regarding that the “Church” (ekklesia) Strong’s 1577 is referred to throughout all of Revelation. Reference to the “Church” (ekklesia) is mentioned only through Rev.1 to 3:22, then mentioned only once more in Rev. 22:16. He is correct that the word “Saints” is mentioned, however that word starts in Rev.5:8 and then throughout the rest of the Book. ✨Also he seemed to be very angered at the interpretation by some Pre-Trib teachers of 2 Thess. 2:3 specifically regarding the word apostasy (apostasia) being interpreted as a “Departing”. Although he accurately stated that there was debate even among Pre-Trib people over the interpretation of this word. He was angered that some would twist it to mean “Departing”. Does he not know that The 1599 Geneva Bible which was in print years before the King James Bible uses “departing” in that specific verse? His accusation of twisting the Scripture is unfounded. ✨Throughout his discussion there were further repeated derogatory attacks that the pastors who held a Pre-Trib view were false prophets twisting scripture. And although in his closing remarks he said that he affirmed that those who held to a Pre-Trib view were his “brothers and sisters” and he meant no hostility. He came across by these remarks as hypocritical and disingenuous because of his hostile and ad hominem attacks. ✨ I believe throughout most of the Book of Revelation The LORD specifically deals with the Nation of Israel and their relationship to their Messiah - The LORD JESUS and fulfilling HIS Promises to them specifically outlined and evidenced in The Torah and throughout the Old Testament. And the Judgment of the Nations and unbelieving world as seen in Psalm 2. ✨it was disheartening to hear such a derogatory stance towards fellow brothers and sisters in CHRIST who hold to an opinion in favor of a PreTrib Rapture. In contrast, although each of the gentlemen on your show do not hold to a Pretrib Rapture, does not cause me to have a derogatory opinion of you all at all. I understand that there is differing opinions on this subject, no problem I get it. ✨Instead why not perhaps make a case among yourselves using Scripture and take it upon yourselves - to go over each and every point of those like Andy Woods who hold to the Pretrib Rapture and show why you all do not hold to it Scripturally without the hostility and derogatory nature.
Thank you for stating the point clearly and with good scripture. I am pre trib and spent the last 3 years going over all aspects of eschatology and rapture teachings. I hold to pre trib because I do believe, like you, that it is biblical and that the tribulation is for the Jews. I believe those who are called out and sealed by the Lord will be saved in that time. I’m sad at the derogatory stance many who don’t hold to pre trib take and mock us repeatedly. Jess Durbin has been bad at that as well as Joel Webbon. It’s not like we don’t give a scriptural basis, yet we’re characterised as newspaper exegetes who want to have perfect lives.
Thank you. I won't bother watching the video based on your comment. I am 100% pre-Tribulation rapture, and my first rapture dream was on 3/16/2017 (have had several) and God told me to start doing videos afterwards. The born again church isn't going to be here for a minute of THE Tribulation. I had another rapture dream on 1/9. Jesus is our Bridegroom, and we (the church) are betrothed to Jesus to be in the wedding chamber (heaven) for seven years. Maranatha.
@@WalkingbytheSpiritAlways Amen Brother or Sister!! I myself have had like 7 or 8 Rapture Dreams like in the past 10 or so years! My daughter just had one the other day and I believe Very Very Very Soon that we will be getting Caught Up With Our Lord Jesus Christ In The Clouds ☁️ Of Heaven 🙏🙏🙏🙏
@@danielwarton5343 Thank You So Much for your comment. It was Very Encouraging and So Well Said! I don’t think I’ll ever understand the condescension and hostility that a lot of those who hold another view on the timing of the Rapture and the Tribulation have against PreTrib people. It doesn’t make any sense.
Dr. Andy Woods has a very thorough series of videos on YT defending pre-trib and debunking other positions - might I suggest him as a guest to defend pre-trib?
If you haven't heard of them yet, Prophecy Watchers are also fantastic resources on this subject as well. And have a multitude of super interesting topics and interviews.
Andy teaches (dispensational) 1 Thes 4:13-17 is the pre-trib rapture and Luke 17:22-37 is the second coming. I think that is backwards. Like the days of Lot and Noah is pre-trib because the wicked are caught unaware (Matt 24:39). Life is normal (eating, drinking, etc.). Whereas at the second coming most are hiding in a cave (Rev 6:15-17) and freaking out (Luke 21:26). Non-dispensational's teach Luke 17 and 1 Thes 4 are both pre-trib and the same event. I would say Luke 17 is pre-trib without a resurrection (verse 37). There is only one resurrection (John 6:40-54, 11:24, Rev 20:4-6, 1 Cor 15:52). It is on the last day, last trump. Why have a resurrection pre-trib? Those in heaven today are not naked in heaven (2 Cor 5:1-6). They have a heavenly body (1 Cor 15:40). The pre-trib rapture is like a natural death. There is a flash of light and we leave our flesh on earth. 1 Thes 4:13-17 is the second coming with THE resurrection.
I was raised pre-trib because it was what I was taught and never actually questioned it until someone challenged me to read Scripture for myself. I scoured through my ‘67 Scofield Reference Bible that I had for 20 some years and couldn’t find a single passage that supported it. I found the FAI channel a couple years later and watched Dalton Thomas’s video explaining what I discovered on my own and have been preparing to endure until the end ever since. I’m sorry, but this is a doctrine we can’t really afford to get wrong. Too many people will be disillusioned and turn from God if they find out their “great escape” doesn’t happen.
I have the same Bible passed down to me from my late grandfather (SBC). It’s very interesting how my fathers generation can describe pre-trib rapture so well and yet often lack such a basic understanding of more central doctrines.
Secondstorybibles - Read the chapter about how God will ABANDON people who love Him to the Devil, Revelation 12:12. Then read the chapter where God is really Allah. Allah tosses innocence into Hell for no reason too! Read about how God will judge the righteous with the wicked and make the righteous equal with the wiked! Oh wait... none of this is in the Bible!
I think the scriptures are pretty clear that we're not going to be here for God's wrath. We'll be here for some of the tribulations caused by man and not the Tribulation of God.
What if there’s no “rapture” and no second coming with trumpets for Israel? What if there’s a quiet, peaceful “appearing” (Colossians 3:4, “appears” KJV) suddenly and without any fanfare (because God no longer has any wrath at all for Israel or sinners or anyone because his Son paid that penalty at Calvary and his casting away of his chosen people in Acts 28:28-31 KJV frees him up to show grace to everyone, but especially to those that believe. Salvation is now the free gift of Ephesians 2:8&9 KJV. Those who accept it will, alive or resurrected, go into the kingdom of God’s dear Son; those that don’t will be left in the grave. Those lucky enough to be alive when Christ appears will have no choice but to believe so they will be allowed to stay.
Joel I’m so excited to hear you say there is no PreTib Rapture. My husband and I have been so concerned for the people in Churches that are taught there is no need to worry you’ll be out of here before the Tribulation, hence they are not preparing to be purified to receive their Messiah. Thank you for making this clear and preaching the Kingdom on earth to come.🙏❤️
He said it. Careful what you believe. Saying something does not make it true. The rapture hasn't happened yet. Believe in the Lord and always be ready.
Jesus debunked the pretrip rapture in Matthew. Paul debunked it in 2 Thess 1:5-8 when you told them the church would not get relief from tribulation prior to judgement day. Very clear. Pretrib was invented by Darby. No historical evidence of that notion prior to him, as far as I can find
I've studied scripture for most of my adult life. In my 60s now. Over the past five or so years The end times became a passion I'd sort of avoided up until then. Since, however, after years of study, I am pretty close to where Joel is. It wasn't as a result of hearing him first, because I didn't. It was more of hearing him and realizing others are gleaning the same things. Hey my brothers who are pretrib, I sure hope you are right. I don't see it in the Word. I think things are gonna get pretty rough before He comes for us...I want to be wrong. I just don't think that is what is revealed in scripture. One thing I will add, the "scholars" of Jesus' day got it so wrong to the point the "experts" crucified the King because He failed to meet their expectations of a Messiah (of course it was to fulfill scripture and had to be) but they missed it big time. It very well may be we will be as surprised on some points as well. He knows all, we do not. During the wait in the midst of disagreements it is clear that His desire was that we love one another...as we study...
I'd gone along with the Rapture because it seemed to be taught every where and Chuck Missler who I love also taught it. But something always bugged me, and when The Left Behind series came out, I was EMBARRASSED because it was so ridiculous. I asked the Lord about the pretrib rapture and told Him it didn't make sense. Finally, I listened to Craig Keener, The Remnant guys, and others who refused to go along with an unscriptural system, and I felt a huge wave of
I am also in my 60's and studied the Bible but my studies show that there is a pre-trib.. if there is no pre-trib that means we are going through the tribulation. And there no scriptures to support it
Then you need to study 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. “Shall be caught up” is the rapture. It’s very easy to understand. Might need to get your “Wanters” fixed.
I am a pre-tribber and have really tried to put aside my own convictions and listen to Joel on this. But there are far too many questions he simply dodges and does not answer convincingly. His main point that Im kind of getting out of this is that Christians will be disappointed and lose their faith if they find themselves in the tribulation. I find that very generic and speculative. Most of the pre-tribbers are very aware of all the aspects of tribulation and the sequence, and so if we were to find ourselves in such a situation, we would be equipped to stand in the faith. On the other hand, I really think Joel should address those who follow the kingdom-now theology, amillenialism, preterism etc. Those guys dont even believe in a actual 7 year tribulation period. I'm sure they'll be more disappointed to find themselves in one. When it comes to pre-trib being a recent doctrine, thats already been addressed by a lot of bible scholars like Thomas ice, Andy woods etc. What I think is that sometimes christians take everything that the early church believed in as a standard. Thats what a lot of reformers do. We need to understand that there was never a point where the church was absolutely free from false teachings. False teachings started even in the time of Paul. So we can't say pre-trib is false just because it wasn't taught in the early church. Theres a lot of prophecy is the Bible that only becomes clear as time passes. In the early 1900s, christians didnt know what to make of all the prophecies about Israel because it didnt even exist as a nation back then. It was only in 1940s and 1950s that christians began to look at it as a fulfillment of prophecy. Similarly, pre-trib rapture is becoming more popular now because many are able to see the the context of those verses better as time passes. Lastly, Joel talks about the insignificance of types and shadows. That thr jewish wedding has absolutely nothing to do with the rapture. Well, the parable of the ten virgins is based on a jewish wedding. Jesus used a lot of typology to put His point across. Even the old testament feasts and festivals are a picture of Jesus. The scriptures say that the temple on earth was a copy of the true temple in heaven. The priest and the offerings were a picture of our High Priest Jesus and His offering of Himself for our sins. The passover was a shadow of Jesus' sacrifice. The israelite journey during the wilderness and their entering the promised land is a picture of our own journey in our sinfulness and how we enter the rest of Christ. The scripture is replete with types and shadows. So when pre-tribbers say that a jewish wedding depicts a picture of rapture and how Jesus as our bridgeroom says to His bride the Church, I go and prepare a place for you, thats not a far fetch at all in my opinion. Anyways, there are many other points that cant be articulated in a limited space or time. Thank you Remnant Radio for bringing in Joel Richardson. I know you brought on Jimmy Evans representing pretrib, but might I suggest somebody who is a stronger speaker like Amir Tsarfati, Barry Stagner or Jack Hibbs to come and speak on yout show? Oh I just remembered- don't the post tribbers use the example of the ambassador of a country being recalled and removed out of his position before a war themselves??
@@I_Negan_I Tribulation saints are those who believe during that period, specifically, Israel. The Tribulation is the final seven of the seventy-sevens of Daniel 9:24-27 which is specific to Israel and spelled out in Revelation. The saints of the Old Testament are not the Church, they are Israel, and if the Bride is taken to the Father's house (John 14:1-3) that again leaves Israel as the saints of the Tribulation. Two witnesses in Jerusalem, the measuring of the Temple in Jerusalem, the 144,000 Sons of Israel, etc., are all pointing toward Israel. References and illusions to the Old Testament are replete throughout the book of Revelation which should be a giant sign to anyone with a good working knowledge of those writings. The biggest stumbling block to understanding the focus of the final seven is the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The Church adopts that as sacred to itself, when in fact it is Christ fulfilling the Law and the Prophets, and setting the stage for the New Covenant, which is rejected by Israel, that is, "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 10:6; 15:24). The Gospels are the segue between Old and New. Israel failed to recognize the time of their visitation, opening the door to the Gentiles. Comfort One another ~
Paul rules out a pre trib rapture very clearly in 2 Thess 1:6-8 when he tells them they wont get relief from their trials and tribs until Jesus returns on judgement day; not 7 years earlier. This passage by Paul is straightforward and every pre tribber I communicate with just avoids it. Your thoughts on whether this passage allows for a pretrib gathering? Regarding a 7-year period, this comes only from Daniel 9, and I am pretty sure that Scofield in 1909 was the first to postulate that there was a huge time gap between the weeks of Daniel. But, Daniel 9 strongly implies that all 70 weeks are completed before the temple was destroyed (70 a.d.) and that it was Messiah who ended sacrifice and grain offerings in the middle of the final week. I cant find any pre Darby scholar who thought the 70th week wasnt completed.
@@rustys5111 thank you so much for posting that because I was of the same mindset despite the fact I was raised in a pre trib church. The time gap theory has always fascinated me for I always wonder if that was used to justify the pre trib stance.
Pretribbers believe in a 2nd and 3rd coming. Don't believe it? Paul calls the rapture the Lord's coming (see 1 Thess. 4:15). Notice that Paul does not just call it a visitation or a descending, but a coming. So that is his supposed 2nd coming. Then Matt. 24 talks about his coming at the end of the age, that would be the supposed 3rd coming. But that is incorrect. There is only one 2nd coming, at the end of the age, after the tribulation of those days, when he raises us up on the last day and gathers us in the rapture.
We had been at war on between pre-Tribulation Rapture and post-Tribulation Rapture. I believe in Post-Tribulation rapture for sure because Christ comes gathering at end of Tribulation. pre-Tribulation Rapture has a lot of missing content
Contentiousness is not a fruit of the Spirit and whether you are pre-trib or post-trib does not determine who might fall away or not. If rapture is post-trib many who were pre-trib believers will stand and many who were post-trib will fall. May humility and grace through faith keep us all.
I was pre trib for a long time. When I started reading the verses and reading early church history I switched to a post tribulation. What did it for me was the mention of dead in christ rising first and those who are alive and remain will be caught up together in the air.... it mentions dead bodies being raised. This isn't mentioned happening twice, but yet people will die during the tribulation.
I think you should read the Bible again. There are several resurrections mentioned in the Bible. The 1 you mentioned above and the man who fell on Elishas body, those who rose with Christ, after the crucifixion, Christ, Lazarus, Jairus daughter, the 2 witnesses, the OT saints in Daniel 12, the Tribulation saints in Revelation 20. Your ? should be who are those that are on the thrones. Who is caught up? Enoch, Elijah, the 2 witnesses, Christ, and the Bride.
Something that might be helpful to you in understanding this part about the dead bodies is knowing that you are comparing 2 different "people groups" (for lack of a better term). The dead in Christ are Christians that have died over the last 2000 years. Because they are a part of the "Bride of Christ", they get to be a part of the "catching up", hence, the dead in Christ rising. The people who die during the tribulation will not be a part of the "Bride in Christ". They are Tribulation Saints. There is no "dead in Christ rising" for them. When they die, they just go to Heaven. Hope that helps.
First of all there are many the dead in Christ rice first there’s many reasons situations of the dead not just the one mentioned here the dead in Christ will rise at the rapture the dead that are not in Christ will rise at the end of the millennium Lazarus rose from the dead so on and so on so there’s not only one raising from the dead there’s also not one rapture in the Bible there are several Enoch was rapture Jesus was ruptured the church will be rapture so by changing your pre-tribulation rapture point of view to a post-tribulation rapture point of view based on this statement that the dead in Christ will rise first and we who are alive and remain shall be caught up is incorrect. He has always been consistent on removing the bride before the Raph the Bible even speaks of the restrainer being taken out of the way before the man of perdition is revealed so the church is that which restrain us we are salt and light in the Earth, and we want must be taken. Out-of-the-way first
The day of Jesus christ is only ever mentioned by the apostle paul Raptures in your own Bible that you refuse to study 1-enoch was raptured 2 - Moses body 3- Elijah was raptured 4- Jesus was raptured 5- the old testament saints from Abrams bosom were raptured and passing though Jerusalem were seen of many 6- the day of Jesus christ is going to happen 5993 from creation or 1993 years after christ was raptured before the 7 years of wrath 7- The day of the Lord when the jews are raptured by the angels from the four winds to Jerusalem to meet jesus as he rids in to slay the armies of the antichrist at the end of daniels 70th week The mystery rapture is only revealed to the apostle Paul found only n the letters to the church's Stop looking in Matthew for a day of Jesus christ as it wasn't revealed yet Matthew only mentions the day of the Lord a rapture or gathering of the jews by the angel's after the 70th week
Three simple ones who can't find truth Raptures in your own Bible that you refuse to study 1-enoch was raptured 2 - Moses body 3- Elijah was raptured 4- Jesus was raptured 5- the old testament saints from Abrams bosom were raptured and passing though Jerusalem were seen of many 6- the day of Jesus christ is going to happen 5993 from creation or 1993 years after christ was raptured before the 7 years of wrath 7- The jews are raptured by the angels from the four winds to Jerusalem to meet jesus as he rids in to slay the armies of the antichrist at the end of daniels 70th week
@@ChrisPerkins-i7h That's grasping at straws. 1)Enoch was taken away, but NOT to escape any coming dangers. He was taken *365* YEARS before the flood! 2) Moses died and his body was BURIED by God. (Deut. 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. 3) Elijah was removed AFTER all of the danger had passed. So, yes. That would actually be a preshadow of the "Rescue of all who are in THE BOOK" that Daniel spoke of. It comes AFTER. 4) Jesus was resurrected and stayed on earth for 40 days. He was not alive and changed to immortal without facing death. Also, He was taken to Heaven AFTER he had suffered and died. He did not get whisked off the planet to avoid persecution and death. 5) The OT Saints were DEAD. They were resurrected and walked on EARTH, they were not translated to immortals while still alive, nor were they bodily whisked off to Heaven. It actually never states how long they remained alive on earth, and what happened after they were resurrected. 6) You are guessing and adding to the Bible to claim to know the exact year. There are too many variables to be dogmatic about any date. 7) The Bible does NOT say that it is JEWS who are gathered from the four winds. The NT uses the term "ELECT" to refer to CHRISTIANS and believing Jews. The bodies of the dead in Christ are gathered from the earth and reunited with the souls, and then the living elect are gathered in the AER (That is the term Paul used. It is the Greek word translated as "AIR." But it means the air as in the lower atmosphere, visible sky. IF Paul had meant to imply that we are gathered to the Highest Heaven he would have used the word "Ouranos."
I was so looking forward to sharing this with my pre-trib friend, but then was disappointed at the unclear quality of sound when Joel was teaching. Josh and Michael’s voices boomed out loud and clear, but then Joel’s responses were choppy and much softer. It’s a pity. 😢
It’s ridiculous to say that the apostia that must come first is the rapture. That would be like saying that Paul said two things must come first for the rapture to happen, to wit, the rapture and the revealing of antichrist. In other words; the rapture won’t happen before the rapture happens.🤪🤪
@@Josrofer How do you get that? Verse 2:6 and now you know WHAT withholds that the man of sin is revealed in his time. How do they know now? He just told them twice, in verse 1 and in verse 3. In verse 1 he is begging them not to be worried about the day of the Lord, and he is using "our gathering together unto Him" as the reason not to be worried. Then in verse 3, the falling away or Departure happens and then that man of sin is revealed before Christ returns. Christ doesn't return until after the man of sin is revealed, and the man of sin isn't revealed until after the falling away Departure.
The best way to prepare is to prepare your heart in the Lord because you can prepare the wrong way, without Jesus, then it you're not really prepared at all. Jesus will take care of us in the End Times.
So if Christians are supposed to be raptured BEFORE the tribulation, why would St. John’s vision not end there? If we are all in heaven, we don’t need to know what comes next.
There are some who say they are believers who are not followers of Messiah, they will still be on earth, they obviously will have some knowledge and will need to know what comes next. As well, non-believers will need to know what comes next as the things that are happening hopefully will lead them to salvation albeit through the time of Yah's wrath.
Post-trib view understands "The Day of the Lord" to refer exclusively to the “Second Coming” of Christ, which occurs after the 7-year tribulation. On the other hand, Pre-trib view considers "The Day of the Lord" to mean the entire sequence of events of the “7-year tribulation.” I struggle to understand how "The Day of the Lord" can be described as coming like a thief in the night if it is only connected to the Second Coming of Christ. When the tribulation begins and people experience its effects, the Second Coming will not feel sudden or unexpected for the people. The Post-Trib view interprets the phrase "that the day would overtake you like a thief" (1 Thess 5:4) to imply that believers will not “feel” surprised or caught off guard like encountering a thief. According to this view, both unbelievers and believers will go through and “experience” the same events, but “unbelievers” will “feel” the suddenness and surprise of the Lord’s Coming, whereas “believers,” being aware of Jesus' coming, will not “feel” that sense of surprise as if encountering an unexpected thief. However, I have serious doubts about whether this is what Paul intended to convey in 1 Thess 5. Paul's intention seems to be more than just a matter of “feelings.” Rather, Paul is suggesting that while unbelievers will indeed “experience” the tribulation as a theft, believers will not actually go through that “same experience” of tribulation as a thief in the night. It’s not a matter of “feelings” but actual “experience.” This is why I adhere to the Pre-tribulation view, as I believe "The Day of the Lord" is synonymous with the entire 7-year tribulation period. The "onset" of the tribulation, its beginning, may come unexpectedly like a thief in the night (1 Thess 5:2), but for believers, "that day" (referring to the 7-year tribulation) will not overtake us as a thief in the night (1 Thess 5:4) because we will be raptured (1 Thess 4:17) just before the tribulation "that day" begins. Just a simple and natural reading of 1 Thess 4-5 will lead any readers to this conclusion. +
adhere to your false doctrine. EVERY ONE will be present on Resurrection day BOTH the living and the dead LIVE to see the dead come out of their graves OR Die and be raised with them and the rapture is after the resurrection.
@@fifajjang77 your problem is not with my arguement your problem is you know I am right according to scripture and you cannot prove the truth is wrong.
@@fifajjang77 It cant be my opinion if it is written 1) Is my opinon Jesus said he would He would raise them up at the last day? John 6 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 2) Is it my opinion Jesus descends from heaven to raise them up FIRST, at the last day? 1 Thes. 4 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 3) Is it my opinion the alive are caught up after the resurrection at the last day? 1 Thes. 4 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 4) Is it my opinion you will be DEAD or ALIVE when Jesus descends to raised the dead at the last day? the last day is not 7 years before the last day I suppose that is opinion! pre tribulation rapture doesnt exist. post resurrection rapture is the truth POST RESURRECTION RAPTURE IS TRUTH see Revelation 10: 5-7 to understand the timing of the last day resurrection. and the rapture is after that. study study study and stop your nonsense Jesus didnt ascend before his resurrection neither will His body.
I believe revelation 3:10 where he’s promised to keep us away from the tribulation that will come on the whole world. I truly believe this is regarding the rapture.
You should rely upon the numerous verses that actually talk about the return of Christ and the rapture specifically. This one clearly does not. But 2 Thess 1:5-8 is a passage that debunks the pre trib rapture. Read it. Paul tells the church they will not receive relief from their persecutions until judgment day. Why did He not say "pre trib rapture day"? This matters. There will be no pre trib rapture. Also, believe what Jesus said to us in Matthew 24 about the rapture timing. It happens after the trib but before the bowls of wrath. It really isnt that complex.
Three simple ones who can't find truth Raptures in your own Bible that you refuse to study 1-enoch was raptured 2 - Moses body 3- Elijah was raptured 4- Jesus was raptured 5- the old testament saints from Abrams bosom were raptured and passing though Jerusalem were seen of many 6- the day of Jesus christ is going to happen 5993 from creation or 1993 years after christ was raptured before the 7 years of wrath 7- The day of the Lord when the jews are raptured by the angels from the four winds to Jerusalem to meet jesus as he rids in to slay the armies of the antichrist at the end of daniels 70th week The mystery rapture is only revealed to the apostle Paul found only n the letters to the church's Stop looking in Matthew for a day of Jesus christ as it wasn't revealed yet Matthew pnly mentions the day of the Lord a rapture or gathering of the jews by the angel's after the 70th week I hope people change
Three simple ones who can't find truth Raptures in your own Bible that you refuse to study 1-enoch was raptured 2 - Moses body 3- Elijah was raptured 4- Jesus was raptured 5- the old testament saints from Abrams bosom were raptured and passing though Jerusalem were seen of many 6- the day of Jesus christ is going to happen 5993 from creation or 1993 years after christ was raptured before the 7 years of wrath 7- The day of the Lord when the jews are raptured by the angels from the four winds to Jerusalem to meet jesus as he rids in to slay the armies of the antichrist at the end of daniels 70th week The mystery rapture is only revealed to the apostle Paul found only n the letters to the church's Stop looking in Matthew for a day of Jesus christ as it wasn't revealed yet Matthew pnly mentions the day of the Lord a rapture or gathering of the jews by the angel's after the 70th week
Tribulation and Wrath are two very different things. Thats the problem with pre trib belief. They tie them together. They are very different. Trib is satans wrath on the saints..wrath is God's wrath on the wicked. God's wrath falls on the last day, after tribulation..The Day of the Lord. Period
The Dead Are Raised First [1 Thess 4:15] We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have died. Therefore, the Rapture cannot take place before the dead are raised. The Bible tells us WHEN the dead are raised [1 Cor 15:52] "at the Last Trumpet". Also, we are told this takes place on "the Last Day" [John 11:24, 6:39, 6:40, 6:44, 6:54,12:48]. Finally, we are also told this takes place after the tribulation [Matt 24:29, Mark 13:34]. Also, "saints" in Jude 1:14 and 1 Thess 3:13, is a reference to "angels" (holy ones - Strong's G40 Hagios) - not human saints, but "angels" are also called "saints" or "holy ones" (Deut 33:2, Ps 68:17). The Rapture cannot take place before the dead are raised - the dead shall rise first. Therefore you cannot have a Rapture (of the living believers) until the dead are raised first, placing the timing of the Rapture after the dead are raised, at the Last Trumpet, on the Last Day, after the tribulation...just like the Bible explains it. We must not contradict these Scriptures as so many have done. We need to embrace and understand these plain statements from the Bible. Please share this with everyone. With thanks to Jesus our Savior. Amen.
Here are some aspects you might want to consider. Post-trib view understands "The Day of the Lord" to refer exclusively to the “Second Coming” of Christ, which occurs after the 7-year tribulation. On the other hand, Pre-trib view considers "The Day of the Lord" to mean the entire sequence of events of the “7-year tribulation.” I struggle to understand how "The Day of the Lord" is solely connected to the Second Coming of Christ. Firstly, if you study the concept of "The Day of the Lord" in the Old Testament, you will discover that it is not a 24-hour period or an instantaneous event connected only to the Second Coming of Christ. Instead, the prophets repeatedly describe "The Day of the Lord" as a sequence of events leading up to the coming of the LORD. It is a complex series of judgments and not a singular event. Secondly, Jesus Himself confirms this understanding in Matthew 24. He divides the first half of the tribulation (Matthew 24:4-14) from the second half (Matthew 24:15-28), with verse 15 serving as a dividing point. Jesus clearly mentions the Seventieth Week of Daniel (Dan 9:27) here in 24:15, which refers to the future Antichrist setting up an abomination of desolation in the temple. The events described in Matthew 24:4-14 closely resemble the beginning of the Seal judgments in Revelation 6. Jesus uses exactly same Greek words, such as "famines and earthquakes" (24:7), "will kill you" (24:9), which correspond to the Seal judgments' description of "kill by sword, famine, and plague" (Rev 6:8), and "There was a great earthquake" (Rev 6:12). Furthermore, Jesus describes the second half of the tribulation with the presence of false messiahs and false prophets performing “signs” and wonders to “deceive” people (Matt 24:24). These same Greek words for "signs" and "deceive" appear in Revelation 13 when it describes the actions of the Beast in the second half of the tribulation. The 7-year tribulation begins with the Seal judgments and concludes with the Bowl judgments. Thus, we see Jesus mentioning this entire 7-year tribulation as a sequence of events in Matthew 24. The fact that Matthew 24:4-28 encompasses the entirety of "the Day (ἡμέρα) of the Lord" is confirmed by Jesus' statement, "But immediately after the tribulation of those days (ἡμέρα)" (24:29), people will witness the coming of the Son of Man: the Second Coming (24:30). The Second Coming occurs "after" the "Day (ἡμέρα) of the Lord," specifically, "immediately after the tribulation of those days (ἡμέρα)." Therefore, it is unreasonable to equate "the Day of the Lord" solely with the singular event of the "Second Coming of Christ." Jesus Himself even emphasized that when individuals observe "all these things," they should recognize that He is near (24:33). "All these things" refers to the entire sequence of events during the tribulation (the Day of the Lord, 24:4-28). The Second Coming is preceded by specific and clear "signs," similar to how people can anticipate the approach of summer (24:32). However, Jesus changes the topic (peri de) starting in 24:36, stating, "But of that day (ἡμέρα) and hour no one knows." The Day of the Lord, the tribulation, is a "signless" event without visible signs. The most compelling evidence supporting the understanding that the Day of the Lord encompasses the entirety of the 7-year tribulation comes from Paul's words in 1 Thessalonians 5. Paul describes the day (ἡμέρα) of the Lord as coming upon unbelievers suddenly, "like labor pains (ὠδίν) on a pregnant woman," and they will not escape (5:3). It is noteworthy that the "onset" of the Day of the Lord is the same as what Jesus referred to as the "onset" of the tribulation in Matthew 24: "All these are the beginning of birth pains (ὠδίν)" (24:8). Both Paul and Jesus affirm that the Day of the Lord is not a singular event but a sequence of events (7 years) leading up to the Second Coming. Both Jesus and Paul affirm that the "onset" of the Day of the Lord signifies only the beginning of birth pains. Unbelievers cannot "escape" the Day when it begins and the sequence of events unfolds. Paul further states, "But you (second person: believers), brethren, are not in darkness, that the day (ἡμέρα) would overtake you like a thief" (5:4). The onset of "that day" cannot seize believers violently because Paul explained in the preceding context that they will be "caught up" to be with the Lord (4:17). Furthermore, if we equate the Day with Christ's Second Coming, it becomes difficult to comprehend how unbelievers can say "peace and safety" (5:3) and live their lives normally just before the Second Coming of Christ, given that they are currently experiencing the terrible wrath of God during that time. Lastly, look at 2 Thessalonians 2. Some of the Thessalonians were disturbed by a report claiming that the day of the Lord had arrived (2:2). If, in this context, the day of the Lord is synonymous with the second coming, then it would be impossible for them to be shaken in mind. Instead of being troubled, they should have rejoiced that the Day of the Lord had come! If the Christians had mistakenly believed, based on Paul's previous teaching, that they were currently going through the tribulation and held a post-tribulationist view, they would have likely been rejoicing rather than troubled by the idea of sudden deliverance. When we consider the overall context of 1-2 Thessalonians, the only logical explanation is as follows: The Thessalonians had been previously taught that the rapture would occur before the day of the Lord. The lie they heard just before Paul wrote his second letter to them suggested that the day of the Lord had come, and being informed of the day of the Lord's arrival necessarily implied that they had missed the rapture. This would undoubtedly be disconcerting, and it would have shaken the Thessalonians from their composure. The pre-tribulational rapture is not lacking in biblical support and evidence. In fact, there is ample evidence to support it. I humbly believe that viewing 1 Thessalonians 4-5 in its entirety, the pre-tribulation position appears to be the most natural reading.
YOUR WORDS --- > I humbly believe that viewing 1 Thessalonians 4-5 in its entirety, the pre-tribulation position appears to be the most natural reading. Well your are wrong. verse 15 clearly says we which are alive and remian unto the coming of the LORD NOT we which are alive and remain unto 7 years before the coming of the LORD verse 16 clearly says the dead in Christ rise FIRST when do the dead rise John 6 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. the dead rise AT THE LAST DAY NOT 7 years before the last day verse 17 says THEN we which are alive and remain shall be caught up in the clouds caught up in the clouds AFTER THE RESURRECTION AT THE LAST DAY is clearly NOT pre tribulation YOU PROVIDE A Horrible interpretation of GOD's holy Word
Hallelujah for post-trib resurrection being explained! Thank God for clear exposition of “the last trump.” Matthew 24 is one of the most shoe-horned and distorted text by pre-trib rapture teaching than almost any other. I was so disappointed to to learn that Rick Renner is pre-trib rapture. Someone sent a link to a great TH-cam sermon by Renner which made me think he was going to be a great resource for meanings of New Testament words and history. The fact he can read the text and not exegete it correctly with regard to eschatology astounds me. Same with all other Greek Bible scholars who are cessationists and/or pre-trib. As a teen, I was taught pre-Trib teaching in my parents’ Bible Church with a pastor who graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary. When I came to Jesus and received salvation 7 years later, one of the first things the Spirit showed me in Scripture was there is no such teaching as a secret rapture of the Church. A few months before my salvation experience, He sovereignly taught me non-cessation truths. If I, a brand new Christian and young adult in college, could receive such understanding by simply reading the Bible for what it says, then why are so many others being duped into believing a teaching which truly makes us look absurd to nonbelievers? By the way, all of this happened to me during the fiery days of Hal Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth,” which took the Christian world by storm. So much of such eschatology over the years has wrongly predicted various aspects of the Book of Revelation, and yet, memories are short. The erroneous interpretations take another turn around the planet when certain situations (usually political) arise both here and abroad (mostly abroad, especially with any upheaval in modern day Israel). This, despite the fact that the Old Covenant was abolished, the Kingdom of God torn from Israel and given to another (those who embrace Jesus as Messiah, King and Savior, both Jew and Gentile), a “parenthetical” Church Age is widely taught & believed. This doctrine was NEVER a part of the early church fathers’ writings or any other period of time until the 1800’s when it popped up in England. The “new revelation” was born and mostly took root in the US. Sadly, the US have spread it worldwide. Well, enough said for now… thank you Remnant Radio guys and Joel Richardson.
I always turn to the scripture of separation of the wheat and chaff. That is done with a tribulum. It is done at the harvest. In the parable of the tares the worker asks the owner if they should remove the tares and the master says we must wait till the harvest so we don't remove some wheat unintentionally. When wheat is ready it bows down and the tares stay upright it is easy to separate them. We go through the tribulation. Good podcast guys. Thanks.
YES! I believe the harvest time is when everyone must decide whether or not to accept the Mark of the Beast. While the executions of those refusing the mark are witnessed, some will reluctantly accept the mark to avoid execution. Only those who are willing to die, endure to the end, will live. They are the ones who will be raptured. God cuts the days short, or all will die. Rapture is how God cuts the days short.
Hold these scriptures side by side and look at the chronological comparison, it can’t be coincidence. ONLY SCRIPTURE - [x] Revelation 6:12-15 - [x] Matt 24:29-31 - [x] Mark 13:24-27 - [x] Luke 21:25-28 - [x] Joel 2:10&11 and 30-31 - [x] Acts 2:19-21 What is the exact comparison in chronological order? A) The sun will be darkened b) The moon will not give its light C) The stars will fall from Heaven D) The powers of the Heavens will be shaken E) On the earth. F) The sea and the waves. G) In Joel there is a Great and TERRIBLE day AND a Great and AWESOME day of the Lord. It will be awesome for the ones who are raptured but it will be terrible for the ones who stays behind. H) Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in Heaven. H) God Have NOT appointed us to WRATH but to OBTAIN SALVATION. I) In Joel 2 God even talked about the Earthquake mentioned in the sixth seal BEFORE The Day of The Lord. J)The Day of God’s WRATH is announced in Rev 6:16&17 “Fall on us and hide us from the face of HIM who sits on the throne and FROM THE WRATH of the LAMB! For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH HAS COME, and who is able to stand?” K) 1 Thess 5:9-11 For God HATH NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to OBTAIN SALVATION by our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. L) Psalms 119:160, John 17:17, Psalm 138:2. The SUM of Thy Word is truth and God’s WORD is magnified above His Name. Our opinions doesn’t matter. According to these scriptures, We will still be here UNTILL the 6th seal and we arrive in Heaven in Revelation 7:9-17. ONCE YOU SEE IT YOU CAN’T UNSEE IT.
Paul debunks the pretrib rapture in 2 Thess 1:6-8 when he tells the church they will not find relief from their persecutions until judgment day. He would have mentioned the pre-trib rapture if it was real. But he didnt. It obviously is not, according to Paul. No bible teacher ever suggested a 2-staged return of Christ until Morgan Edwards in 1742. Nobody. They all knew better.
@@rustys5111 I partly agree but what about what Jesus said: - [x] Matt 24:29-31 - [x] Mark 13:24-27 - [x] Luke 21:25-28 Exactly even in chronological order - [x] Revelation 6:12-15
@@JasminHadda-j1p I checked all those passages. Three of them clearly state that the gathering of the elect (rapture) occurs after the time of distress and at the return of Christ to bring judgment. Rev 6 speaks of His wrath, but doesnt mention the gathering of the saints. See Rev 14 for the harvest of the earth, which appears to be the gathering of the elect and the judgment of the earth occurring about the same time. This happens after the 7 trumpets and prior to the bowls of wrath. Paul agrees with this when he tells the Thessalonian church that the will experience trials and persecution all the way to judgment day, which means there is no pre trib gathering. See 2 Thess 1:5-8.
I grew up in a dispensationalist believing household and went to a dispensationalist Bible college. I am sixty six now. I also grew up hearing II Timothy 3:12, "Indeed all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted." From a young age, I was familiar with the persecution in China and the Soviet Union. I browsed Foxes Book of Martyrs as a child as well as Tortured for His Faith. (It was hard to read them all the way through but they made an impression.) I also read about missionary martyrs in the 20th century. Today I support Open Doors and I feel agony for those Christian young women and men captured and enslaved by Islamic terrorists. Is the American church prepared for persecution? That is an important question and one that is separate from the question of the Tribulation. To me, having grown up in dispensationalism, I think it's a straw man to argue that dispensationalists just want to avoid persecution. Persecution is more the norm in history than not. I knew that as a child and teenager. I heard about putting God first and being willing to sacrifice for God's kingdom. I saw my parents sacrifice. There was nothing "health and wealth" about dispensationalism as I have known it. The big issue as I have understood it is whether the church experiences God's wrath, not man's wrath. So, all this is to say, reason from Scripture and don't conflate persecution and the Great Tribulation. Stay away from judging motives of those with a different position..
Hey I got a question should you're not putting up the pagan symbols 3 witches incident represents the trinity when we going to check the crosses down and put the pentagram up pentagram up and say that represents the crucifixion Huntington so many heritage church leaders are bringing so much paganism into the church of just wondering God bless if it's still okay to say that
I have heard Joel live at a couple Perry Stone conferences and I believe he is a godly man. I have his book about extensive research in Saudi Arabia. His conversation today has not moved me at all from my firm position in a pre trib rapture and a believer in dispensation.
@PETER JOHN BRANDAL Perry Stone is most definitely pre trib. Along with Jimmy Evans who will be at Perry Stones church the last weekend in April for a prophesy summit in Cleveland Tennessee
Please look at these scriptures. I am not pre trib for a heads up. Zechariah 14:16-19 is a passage that shows there are people left on earth who are not "Christian" when the Lord returns. Many today do not realize Christ will keep the sabbaths as shown in the passage. Jesus is said to rule with a rod of iron and the passage shows that too. Isaiah 56:1-9 is a prophecy that reads into the return of Christ if you read verse 8 as the gathering of Israel back to the land of Israel It includes gentiles being gathered as well.. Verse 9 can be seen as the call of the Lord to the beasts to the feast of conquered army of the devil (Gog/Magog) at the battle of Jerusalem at the Lords return. The rest of the chapter can be read as a rebuke to the heart of the general church just prior to the Lords return. In Isaiah 65:17-25 the earth is restructured (Rev 16:18-20 a great earthquake in Jerusalem and the holy city divided into thirds and all the mountains brought low into the valleys and cities of the nations destroyed and isles removed) and in Isaiah 65:20 it is prophesied no child will die in it's youth (meaning children will be born) or old men who will not fulfill their days, good or bad they will live to one hundred> so this is not heaven but Christs earthly reign.). From this passage you can see that the earth will be heavily populated for the devil will deceive many (Revelation 20:7-10) when he is released from the bottomless pit. In Isaiah 66:20 The Lord gathers Israel and the world governments and their armies for purposes of sacrifice and repeats statements of the new world he will create and testifies that his sabbaths will be upheld. All of these things will be done in the thousand year reign. People will live and die during the thousand year reign but those of the first resurrection will live and not die and reign with Christ . After the thousand year reign according to Rev. 20:5 there will be a judgment referring to Rev 20:11-15 where all those not of the first resurrection will be judged. Some will be cast into the lake of fire and others will enter heaven as long as their names are not blotted out of the book of life. Most churches just do not portray the end-times as printed in the Bible. There will be no rapture. The Lord comes one time and resurrects those that are his (1 Cor 15:22) the dead in Christ (1Thess 4:16-17) the rest stay in their grave (Rev.20:5) until the millennium is finished. Judgment happens and then Rev 21:1 the second heaven and earth come because the first earth is finally done away with. Those who think they are going to get raptured and go directly into the presence of God are being deceived and the Seminaries and their pastors are leading the deception whether they know it or not. When the tribulation starts many will be angry and attack those who lied to them and will take their anger out on those who have not fallen for the trap and who have refused to take the mark of the beast scenario. Don't be deceived.
The conversation sounded more like it should have been titled, "The Traditional Post-Tribulational Arguments against PreTribulationism" rather than, "Debunking The Pre-Trib Rapture." Thanks anyways.
The day of Jesus christ is only ever mentioned by the apostle paul Raptures in your own Bible that you refuse to study 1-enoch was raptured 2 - Moses body 3- Elijah was raptured 4- Jesus was raptured 5- the old testament saints from Abrams bosom were raptured and passing though Jerusalem were seen of many 6- the day of Jesus christ is going to happen 5993 from creation or 1993 years after christ was raptured before the 7 years of wrath 7- The day of the Lord when the jews are raptured by the angels from the four winds to Jerusalem to meet jesus as he rids in to slay the armies of the antichrist at the end of daniels 70th week The mystery rapture is only revealed to the apostle Paul found only n the letters to the church's Stop looking in Matthew for a day of Jesus christ as it wasn't revealed yet Matthew only mentions the day of the Lord a rapture or gathering of the jews by the angel's after the 70th week
Reading Malachi 3:17-18 (and into chapter 4) convinced me that God does distinguish between those who are His. I’m still pre-trib based on this scripture.
Disappointed in Joel here. He used to be more sympathetic to pre trib, now he is so far on the other side it’s laughable! Pre trib rapture doesn’t say there won’t be persecution. We believe that the church will escape the wrath of the lord! Very different from persecution which the church has endured since Christ. Also if mathew 24 isn’t referring to just isreal but also the church then explain in verse math 24:15-16 it mentions Judea and the city of Jerusalem! Why doesn’t it mention the whole world if Christian’s are still on the earth? Jesus is clearly focusing on isreal. It’s also another reason why it mentions the sabbath in verse 20. Why would gentiles or the church give a crap about the sabbath? (except for the messianic Christian’s lol) Also if the church is on earth during the time of the second coming why doesn’t the book of revelation ever mention America? The worlds superpower? Makes no sense. Pre trib fits perfectly with the end times scenario. Although not explicitly stated it’s practically implied by any competent person who has read the Bible through and has a good understanding of the church and isreal. Which are two different distinct entities. Church can have gentiles and Jews but once the church is removed it goes back to gentile and isreal.
The Bride of CHRIST is not appointed to wrath since JESUS took the wrath of the FATHER in our place. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. But, we are still to be spiritually prepared. Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. We don't know the day or the hour of the Rapture/Harpadzo. It is a mystery and it is eminent. The two witnesses will prophesy for the first 3.5 years of the tribulation and then will be killed by the antichrist right after the abomination of desolation. Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Then. the remnant of Israel will flee into the wilderness for the last 3.5 years of the tribulation. Daniel 12:11-12 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. We do know the timing of the second coming of the LORD JESUS CHRIST., It is at the end of the 7 year tribulation. We also know that the saints will be with JESUS at HIS second coming. Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Could you do a "debunking" post-trib or a-mil/post-mil show? Pre-trib seems to be the only eschatological view being "debunked" on the channel (see the 3-4 "debunked" videos with Richardson, Keener, and Kruschner). It would be nice to hear from a pre-tribber who is not simply putting on positive argument for their position (e.g., Evans), but actually showing why they believe (biblically) that a post-trib or a-mil/post-mil position may be wrong as well. Thoughts?
Use the TH-cam search bar. There are plenty of pre-trib/pre-mill teachers denouncing all other positions. It's sometimes difficult to find a video about post-mill or amill that's positive.
@sojourner I know, I just trust Remnant in trying to find credentialed speakers on certain topics rather than being cast off into the ether of youtube to just any guy/girl with a youtube channel. I also appreciate the level of discernment they bring to the conversation. If you have recommendations elsewhere though, let me know!
If someone believes in anything OTHER than Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then he needs to do a video on "How Jesus is soooooooo evil towards HIS PEOPLE". Then do another one comparing Jesus with Allah.
I worry many pre tribs will be discouraged when they do not escape the tribulation period. I grew up in a church that taught pre trib, but changed my mind after much study as an adult.
@@Peter007-e5w He doesn't want it, but He did say believers would endure tribulation. Christians have to remember this world has 1000 years after the whole Antichrist scenario, before the recreation of Heaven and Earth. People will still be living here. If Jesus takes out the people with the Mark of the Beast when He returns then who is left to populate the earth? Somebody has to be still on the earth during all of this time.
(42:00) I've heard the boomerang, yo-yo thing before as well. I always ask if they have loved ones visiting from out of town, do they meet them at the airport? The convo usually moves on to a different point from there.
That's a salvation offer, salvation is the same for both. 95% of the church is already in heaven and without the purifying of the great tribulation. God is no respecter of persons and he is not partial. Luke 21:36 watch therefore and pray always that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass. Hebrews 9:28 only those looking for him will see him the second time. Far different from Rev 1:7 where every eye will see him God bless
I am definatly a post trib/pre wrath guy myself. But i do, and i dont, look forward to the the rapture. I cant wait to meet and be with him selfishly, but that also means all other people are doomed. Its over, not 1 more person will be saved and know the true love that i know. I have close l, dear friends, and i talk from time to time, but they dont believe. It kills me to think they will die without knowing Jesus. It is bitter sweet. Whats the shortest verse in the bible? And why did he do it. It hurts to know sometimes
I hope the pre-tribulation rapture is right, but I’m not betting my life on it. My faith will remain intact either way because no matter what we are to expect tribulation while on earth. One thing I know for sure is I’ll find out for sure one day, either before heaven or after. The preaching that I think is the most dangerous is the prosperity gospel, which mostly teaches not to expect tribulation if you become a believer. That doctrine truly does lead to disillusionment.
@janeth3139 You wrote, "I hope the pre-tribulation rapture is right, but I’m not betting my life on it." I hope that was not your approach to believing in Jesus?!? Ask yourself: - What is it that separated me from God before I received the gift of Salvation? - What is the outcome for those who refuse the gift? John 3:18 says, “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." and v. 36 - "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” - What is God's wrath and how does that work in the tribulation? - Does Daniel 9:24-27 have anything to do with the tribulation, if so why, if not, why not? - Is the Church the Bride of Christ? If so, is that who we see in Revelation 19:1-9ff? - Did Christ's death and resurrection remove our sins, and if so, for what reason then must God administer wrath on the Church?
The Tribulation is the Time of Jacob's Trouble. Gabriel tells Daniel the 70 weeks prophecy is for the Jews and Jerusalem. The church was hidden from the OT prophets.
Is the New Covenant found in Daniel chapter 9? Are we supposed to believe the angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant. Or, is the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28? The 1599 Geneva Bible is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Darby showed up on our shores about the time of the Civil War. What was the earlier understanding of Daniel 9:27 found below in the notes of the 1599 Geneva Bible? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate. Daniel 9:27 And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles. (See Rom. 1:16, Matt. 10:5-7, Acts 10:36-38) (b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection. (See Heb. 9:15) (c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them. (See Matt. 23:38, Matt. 24:1-2, Luke 19:41-44) ------------------------------------------------ During recent years many New Covenant scholars have examined Daniel chapter 9 from a New Covenant perspective. Did Christ fulfill the summary found in Daniel 9:24? Is it about the New Covenant fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary? Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (These two verses are quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34.) Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. The death of the Messiah is found in Daniel 9:26, and there are only two possible singular antecedents for the word “he” in the next verse. Those antecedents are either Christ or Titus, who was the prince of the people that destroyed the temple during 70 AD. Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Is the “he” in Daniel 9:27 the “Messiah”, or “the prince” of the people that destroyed the city and the sanctuary in verse 26? If we used “the people of the prince” it would not be a singular “he”. Does the author of the Book of Hebrews connect the New Covenant with the Messiah’s death found in Daniel 9:26, in the verse below? Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. (NKJV) Verse 26 also says the Messiah would be cut off “after” the 69 weeks. If I agree to paint your house “after” 69 weeks, it will not be painted until the 70th week, or after. Is there a “gap” of almost 2,000 years between the 69th week and the 70th week, or was it fulfilled during the first century when the Gospel was preached “first” to the Jews? We know there is a time period when the Gospel was taken “first” to the Jews, as the Apostle Paul said in the verse below. Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Can we find a time period of about seven years when the Gospel was taken “first” to Daniel’s people during the first century? If we can, we have good evidence that the 70th week of Daniel has already been fulfilled. Did Christ command His disciples to take the Gospel only to Israel in the passage below? Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mat 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Is the time period when the Gospel was preached “first” (Rom. 1:16) to the Jews in the passage above, confirmed in the passage below? Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. In the passage above Luke confirms the fact that the Gospel of Christ was preached throughout the land of Israel after the baptism which John preached. Here again, we have a text which reveals a time period when the Gospel was taken “first” to the Jews, as Paul said in Romans 1:16. Bible scholars have looked at the number of Passover celebrations in the Gospels and have estimated Christ’s earthly ministry to have lasted about three and one half years. Was the Gospel taken “first” (Rom. 1:16) to the Jews for a period of about three and one half years during the period of time revealed in the Gospels? In Galatians 1:14-18 Paul reveals he did not go up to see Peter until about 3 years after his conversion. During that time the Gospel continued to be taken almost exclusively to Daniel's people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles. Read the recent book "The 70th Week of Daniel 9 DECODED" by David Wilcoxson for confirmation of the above.
@@SpotterVideo Oh my goodness. When the Disciples ask Jesus about His second coming He tells them to go read the prophet Daniel. The “covenant” spoken of in Daniel 9:27 is a 7 year covenant. The new covenant that Jeremiah prophesied and which began at Calvary is an “everlasting” covenant. Different covenants (agreements) bro. The covenant the man of sin enters into with the Jewish people is a 7 year one which he breaks midway through,
Rightly dividing the word should be translated handling the word since the word has nothing to do with chopping the text into pieces. Also, Daniel was saved, yet he still went into captivity during the Exile
@JosephPerspective it presents no problem for me. After the church is removed there will be people getting saved (saints). Rev 1-3 speaks to the church. Rev 4-5 church is in heaven. Rev 6-19 tribulation. I "personally" don't believe the body of Christ (church) is mentioned during that time. The tribulation is called the "wrath" of God. Thes 5:9 says he has not appointed us to wrath. However, brother let us serve God with reverence ans godly fear...... However it all shakes out the Lord will take care of his own. Blessings.
Its Post-trib according to the Bible! 1.Thess 4:16 says, the resurrection of the NT Saints comes first, that is the First Resurrection at His parousia=advent,2.coming, not a secret coming. There are only 3 resurrections with the change of the body to immortality (1.Cor 15:23+24). ALL NT Saints are changed (1.Cor 15:51+52), including the Saints out of the Tribulation, 1000 years before the end of the Millennium.
It's called our blessed hope! Why would we be hopeful to go through the tribulation, and how can we comfort each other with the words of you will have to endure through the tribulation???
You are called to endure to the end. Wouldn't it had been glorious to stand side by side with Daniel in the Lion's den? God protected him, and He can protect you too. God protected the Israelites from the plagues. He can protect you too. No where does Scripture tell us to endure to avoid the Mark of the Beast. You need to prepare yourself spiritually for passing through much of tribulation.
We must remember prophecy is speculation until it happens, we can speculate how it will happen but will not fully know until it does, my faith is not in when I think the rapture will happen, it is only in Christ, either way we just have to know that the Lord will take care of his own. We can’t be dogmatic with pre,mid or post trib rapture, to be so is wrong, just a thought from a viewer
Read Deuteronomy chapters 28-30. Moses "prophesied" the entire history of the Jewish people, all the way to their return to The Land in the 20th century. "He will do nothing unless He tells his prophets first." Amos 3.7
I'm pre trib but I don't rule out multiple raptures. If you study the harvest cycle in Leviticus it takes place in multiple stages, with Jesus resurrection being the first fruits we see in 1 Corinthians 15 GOD IS GONNA BLOW THIS WORLD'S MIND.
As a fellow Charismatic that believes in a pre-trb rapture, I admonish y'all to please stop trying to imply that believers who hold to the understanding of a pre-trib rapture be perceived as "escapists" or "nutty" in some way. We read 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 along with other verses, and we believe these verses point to a Pre-Trib rapture. Sure, you interviewed Jimmy Evans, but did y'all bother to look up or research the verses that he gave for his position? Y'all are clearly not being very objective and I sense there's some pride there. Please keep on putting out content that engaging, responsible and more thoughtful for those of whom y'all disagree. Have y'all heard of Jack Hibbs, Jan Markell or Amir Tsarfati? All are respectable sources who hold to the Pre-Trib position. This is not a salvation issue, so please stop making it one.
Thanks. I’m still forming my eschatology. I found the interview lacking. Several declarations about what pre-tribbers believe were false representations. The pre-trib view is not newer (and that deserves debunking.) Joel referenced Lee Brainard in building his case on word meaning, yet Lee Brainard is a very firm pre-tribber. I think a better discussion would’ve been for you simply to explain what you believe. Rather, you devoted so much time on trying to say what a pre-tribber thinks. (And as I mentioned, not entirely accurately.) I left the interview with no reason to lean towards post trib. But I did sense much disgust for folks who firmly hold to the pre-trib view. I found this disappointing. I would also add… The information regarding the 2020 film was rather unveiling and sad. Thank you for exposing the “anthropologist” who’s really not.
Thank you guys for having Joel on. I came to the same conclusions he verbalized in the video before I ever watched his teachings. I could just never find the allusions to pre trib in the Bible that many hold to. Always appreciate you all laying out the intention and guideposts as well with these discussions, it establishes these talks on the basis of discernment and refining which is what I believe we all need in this age.
I like much of what Joel says. However, he claims based on Zechariah 12:10 many modern Orthodox Jews will be saved at Christ's Second Coming. John quoted from that verse at Calvary in John 19:37, and the Spirit was poured out a few weeks later on the Day of Pentecost. Based on the words of Paul below about Christ returning "in flaming fire", nobody will be saved at His Second Coming. All people need to hear the Gospel now, no matter what their DNA test reveals. There is no Plan B of salvation based on race found in the New Testament. 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. ======================= New Covenant Whole Gospel: Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him. He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth. Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD: Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis? Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart. Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36) We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24. Watch the TH-cam videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.
I came to the same conclusion on my own prior to seeing this video. I was raised pre trib and I never questioned it. But the more I read the Bible without preconceived thoughts, the more I moved toward a post trib belief. He practically says everything I currently believe
@@lukewarmnomore7523 Amen. Watch the video I produced for TH-cam titled "Genesis of Dispensational Theology", if you want to understand the origin of this recent doctrine.
@@SpotterVideo The Oldest Pyramid Ever Found by Archeologist in the Chinese Desert having running water sewer pipes and Electrical Conduit's and thousands of Mummy's found just laying on Slabs of Stone or Alters looking like they were just Buried no Vital Oregon's Removed no Wrappings on them, so The Archeologist ran their DNA test on them and found they are all European DNA and Unknown DNA from Space, a Pre-Flood of Noah Discovery, perhaps they are all the Son's and Daughters of the Son's of God Who came down unto the Daughter's of Man and Married them and had children with them. And No Chinese found for thousands of miles. Like the Day's of Noah.
I'm just learning right now and studying viewpoints and the Bible. I guess my question is why would it be hard to believe in a pre trib rapture especially if Enoch and Elijah were taken up?
The resurrection and the rapture are handcuffed and hogtied together according to 1 Thess. 4:15. The resurrection happens, and then the rapture immediately after that, on the same day... the last day.
There will be a LOT of Saints who will be the dead in Christ who's body will become whole to envelope them in the clouds first. Especially those who were martyred during the persecution during the tribulation.
Every post-tribber have the full right to experience the full impact of the 7seals, 7trumpets, 7vials of wrath and at the end to witness the 2nd coming of Jesus in Rev. 19:14 with the armies which are in heaven, with ten thousand of His saints in Jude1:14. Wouldn't that be a sight to behold. You can either see it from heaven downwards, or from the earth upwards. Let each choose. It still doesn't hide fact that in the past more than once God has dealt with National Israel in a distinctive manner apart from the other nations. The 70th week of Daniel also apply to Daniel's people and city.
I like Joel but like everyone else who has an opinion he has to force the text to say what fits with his view. The great tribulation is meant for two things to pour wrath on a Christ rejecting 🌎 world As well saving the remnant of Israel. Jesus said this when speaking to the Jews. Mathew 23:39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘BLESSED IS THE ONE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE Lord!’? This means that Jesus is not going to come back until they call his name. In order for Israel to call on his name they must believe that he is The true Christ. That verse is important because it shows you that in the end it will only be about saving Israel 🇮🇱 has nothing to the with the church . If you rightly divide the word of GOD you would stop coming up with things like Islamic anti christ and post trib non biblical view. Yes we have many anti christ and we need to watch for the smoke and mirrors . If you stick to GODs word you will under stand why the last trumpet is not the 7 th trumpet These trumpets are not the same The last trump has to do with salvation and the 7 trumpet has to do with ushering in Jesus reign in earth 🎉 I’m not dogmatic this is not a salvific issue. But it just shows that most people are not hearing from GOD 😮 Lord bless you all
It is refreshing to hear a Bible teacher be so spot-on regarding this topic! The pre-trib rapture is constantly taught and defended using various theological systems, yet it is NOWHERE clearly stated in Scripture, as Mr. Richardson aptly pointed out. I myself was raised pre-trib and defended it for years. I was called to account when a dear brother and friend asked me where it is plainly stated in God's Word. That led me to really go back and reevaluate what the Bible clearly states about the rapture. I found that the post-trib rapture is CLEARLY stated several times over, and the pre-trib rapture is never clearly stated. Just listen to the way it is often taught by its prominent conveyors and ask yourself, "are they clearly stating what the Book says, or are they giving me reasons why I should believe this doctrine without actually showing it clearly outlined in the pages of Scripture"? What can I say? I didn't write the book 🙏 (thank God). Thank you, Joel Richardson and Remnant Radio for this excellent purveyance of truth! The Lord bless you for your labor of love!
It was massively advertised in 1980s and 1990s. Pretribbing is state literally nowhere. They have to twist texts to say something that can be harmonize with their idea (idol?). Jesus comes back after the last tribulation and only then will he have his elect gathered. If pre-tribbers can't see that than it's because they are wrong on many other things as well.
@@KM-zn3lx It is not there. But the concept is. Can one say the same about 'rapture'. Maybe have a closer look at that first, before engaging into what-aboutism
Suffering will bring doubt and then disbelief for many evangelicals. Suffering is outside their doctrinal framework therefore causing one to either walk away from God or change their belief system. Falling away must be the greater response since scripture predicts it.
@@kevinmc62 You nailed it. I would only add that it is righteous suffering that causes spiritual growth. "...though He (Jesus) was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered." Hebrews 5: 8
That's my concern also. The Bible states that the anti-Christ goes after the Christians and he is successful in everything he does. First part of tribulation is Satan's wrath; later part is God's wrath.
We are Brothers & Sisters. Let's never forget it. Thankful for videos like this and even videos I disagree with so I can see where people are coming. Passion debates and brotherly disagreeing conversations over passionate arguments will always go so much further with one another and let the world see the love we have one for another.
Love this! I am strongly pretrib myself but love to hear from other brothers and sisters on their opposing positions on this topic. It's so important to remember that this is not a salvation issue so there is no need to get heated. I see so many nasty arguments in comments sometimes and accusations of false salvation for the opposing view. It's so terrible to see people behaving so unbiblically about this stuff. We can all agree to disagree in love while still being willing to discuss and hear each other out about why we stand where we stand on this.
Sorry but there is only one biblical truth either people are children of God or the devil there is no compromise. If a child of the devil you not a brother or sister of Christ. I'm not saying you are either personally I don't know you. But I do know what the very word of God says you either a child of God or a enemy of God's you must choose which side to stand firm on. A ox and a donkey can not be yoked together they both have two different mind sets.
The day of Jesus christ is only ever mentioned by the apostle paul Raptures in your own Bible that you refuse to study 1-enoch was raptured 2 - Moses body 3- Elijah was raptured 4- Jesus was raptured 5- the old testament saints from Abrams bosom were raptured and passing though Jerusalem were seen of many 6- the day of Jesus christ is going to happen 5993 from creation or 1993 years after christ was raptured before the 7 years of wrath 7- The day of the Lord when the jews are raptured by the angels from the four winds to Jerusalem to meet jesus as he rids in to slay the armies of the antichrist at the end of daniels 70th week The mystery rapture is only revealed to the apostle Paul found only n the letters to the church's Stop looking in Matthew for a day of Jesus christ as it wasn't revealed yet Matthew only mentions the day of the Lord a rapture or gathering of the jews by the angel's after the 70th week
I agree with Joel these are secondary issues and I appreciate my brothers in Christ. That said: The reasons why people have such a hard time with dispensationalists is they take a careless view of scripture and don’t take God’s word as literally as they should. If you treat the Bible literally then it necessitates a rapture of the church and a later rapture of the tribulation saints Those that deny a pre-trib rapture always fail to deal with Luke 12:36: “And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return FROM the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.” (Luk 12:36, KJV) We agree Jesus only returns once. The issue is that Jesus is going to return FROM a wedding, not to get His bride. How can He return from a wedding for the bride He is not with? The only choice you have is to believe it as written or allegorize it which is sloppy eisegesis Furthermore, the imagery of the resurrection is likened to a harvest. Throughout the Bible a harvest has three parts. Firstfruits, harvest and gleanings. Jesus was the firstfruits, the Church is the harvest and the trib saints are the gleanings. Lastly, the people saved in Matthew are “guests” at a wedding. The Father sends people into the highways and byways for “guests” to the wedding. The bride is not also a guest. This is why the Matthew parables of the ten virgins where 5 don’t have enough oil doesn’t apply to the church. Those tribulations saints must endure to the end, the church is already sealed. You either allegorize things that don’t fit your view or you believe it all as it is written and believe it literally.
What is the literal context of Luke 12:36? For whom He is coming, that wait and watch for their Lord? They are servants, the bride, that is missing for the marriage supper. Everything is ready, He comes (erchemai for the Rapture, Mat 24:29-31). Yeshua refers to erchemai for the Rapture and parousia for the wrath of God (Mat 24:42-48 (erchomai)+24:36-41 (parousia) for the wrath. He comes the same day with Rapture and afterward the same Day the wrath of God after the Tribulation at His 2nd coming (parousia) in Luke 17:29-37. He comes as a thief in the night, in the 2. or 3. watch, be ready, you do not know, when the Son of Man comes at an hour, you do not think. Context! No wishful thinking or reading into the text. He comes from the preparation of the wedding. The bride He brings to the wedding!
To Joel: Question: In Matthew 24:29-31, is Jesus referring to the resurrection unto life (John 5:29, I Thes 4:13-18) OR... is He referring to the salvation of Israel both from their enemies as well as a heart change at His second coming? I am leaning more towards the idea that Jesus is explaining the rescue and redemption of the Jews from their enemies at His 2nd coming when He comes with all of His armies out of Heaven (Rev 19:11-16). I believe the end of Matthew 23 ( 39For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”) all the way through Matthew 24 and 25 is telling the singular story of Israel's salvation (both the rescue of the remnant from their enemies (the Beast empire (Islamic in nature)) AND their true repentance and changed heart. They will finally give their full allegiance to their God, and Creator...Jesus, who is the/their Messiah. I'm not convinced that our resurrection/catching up is what Jesus is talking about in this section of scripture then, but rather that He is referring to Isaiah 66:15-16,18-20: 15“For behold, the Lord will come in fire, and his chariots like the whirlwind, to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16For by fire will the Lord enter into judgment, and by his sword, with all flesh; and those slain by the Lord shall be man 18“For I know their works and their thoughts, and the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and shall see my glory, 19and I will set a sign among them. And from them I will send survivors to the nations, to Tarshish, Put, and Lud, who draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands far away, that have not heard my fame or seen my glory. And they shall declare my glory among the nations. 20And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the Lord, on horses and in chariots and in litters and on mules and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the Lord, just as the Israelites bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the Lord. 21And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the Lord. Matthew 24:29 starts off with "Day of the Lord" language. The language that comes after in verse 30... the "sign" also mentioned in Isaiah 66:19 is the pillar of smoke/fire that is also mentioned in Isaiah 4:5-6 and Isaiah 11:11-16 (in particular in verse 12). It is the same pillar that led Israel in the past and according to Isaiah 4:5-6 it is once again in the land protecting God's people after He has cleansed them with a new heart when finally they say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" (Matthew 23:39) and mourn over whom they have pierced (Zech 12:10). I believe that the survivors mentioned in Isaiah 66:19 are survivors from the last battle (Armageddon) and are from the 10 nations that form the beast militia. Jesus at His 2nd coming has gone throughout the region in a series of battles with the last battle finally destroying all of the Beast armies except for these few survivors that He sends back as messengers (angels) to their homelands (where they have taken out a portion of Jews) to tell their people "let My people go" (just like Moses was sent to Pharaoh). The nations bring them back to Jerusalem and at that time the nations are judged as sheep or goats (Matthew 25:31-46) based on how they treated the least of His people. Verse 31 states "gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" which leads us to what is recorded in Deut 30:4-8, Zech 2:6-13 and Neh 1:8-9. This language of the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other is a description of God not only sending His people out of the land but also and more importantly bringing His people back into the land that He gave their fathers AND He gives them a new heart so that they will love God. Duet 30:4-8 is referring to the same time period that Jesus is referring to in Matthew 24 and according to Zech 2 He will dwell in their midst...which again will be this same time period. As to our resurrection (the 1st resurrection/the resurrection unto life), Paul states in I Thes 4:13-17 that God will bring with Jesus (at His 2nd coming) those who have fallen asleep (dead, not those who will be caught up) down with Him from Heaven (Rev 19:11-16). The "asleep" or dead as shown in Revelation 6 (the martyrs given white robes to wear as well as those John sees in Rev 7 from every tribe, etc) are spirits yet to be reunited with their bodies. They follow Christ down on white horses and then Paul states that the dead will be resurrected first and those left alive will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. So it is in the air (between Heaven and earth, since we are both from the earth and also of Heaven) that I believe our spirits and our bodies will become one again. It is on our way down that we are embodied once more and once we hit the earth we go to war...an invincible army that death no longer has a claim. This resurrection then happens on THE LAST DAY according to Jesus (John 6:39-40) and begins The Day of the Lord. (At least that's what I think, but I could be wrong though...) :) ***Here is a breakdown of the language used in Matthew 24:29-31 that is actually used and explained in the following Old Testament scriptures: * Tribulation of those days: The time of Jacob's troubles (Jeremiah 30) * Sun, moon, cosmos: (Joel 2 + 3 + others re: Day of the Lord) * Powers of the Heavens: (Eph 6:12)12For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Col 1:16For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things were created through him and for him. * Sign of the Son of Man: The pillar of smoke and fire as in the OT.. (see Isaiah 66:19, Isaiah 4;1-6, Isaiah 11:11-16) * All tribes of earth will mourn: (Habakkuk 3:3-7, Rev 6:12-17) * Son of Man on the clouds of heaven: (see Daniel 7:13-14) * Send out His Angels: (Angels=messengers) (see Isaiah 66:19,20) * Loud Trumpet: (Joel 2:1-11) * Gather His elect: (Isaiah 66:19-20, Deut 30:4-8, Zech 2:6-13, Isaiah 11:11-16) * Four winds of heaven: (see Deut 30:4-8, Zech 2:6-13, Neh 1:8-9)
THANK YOU!.... I grew up with only a pre-trib as an option in church, however as I began to study on my own and finally heard this viewpoint years ago, I landed here as well. I am in the minority like you. So thank you
I can't believe people say THANK YOU for preaching we will suffer God's Judgement and Satan's wrath and we must die refusing the Mark. Yea, we will be starving, getting diseases, have to hide out from the Beast. Yeah!!!!!! Rainbows and lollipops!!! ^^^ You people make me roll my eyes from your ignorance.
Gathering Up together with the Dead in Christ at the First Resurrection When Jesus Christ Said Immediately after the Tribulation of those Days, before the Wrath of the Lamb Jesus Christ when the Dead in Christ and We which Remain Alive are Gathered Up together and Changed Transformed into Eternal Physical Body of Flesh Bone and Spirit Forever to be with the Lord Jesus Christ
@@scott596 we come back with Jesus at the return. The Elders see all seals opened in Heaven, Revelation 5:9. The Elders will rule on the Earth during the Millennium Age as Kings and Priests, Revelation 5:10, meaning they come BACK with Jesus at the return.
@@scott596 can you explain to me please, why Jesus makes the statement to this group of people they were obviously in the Great Tribulation. When I return from the wedding,! Make sure your lights are burning bright that I might receive you immediately at that time. Take a note, the Jesus is returning from the wedding. And the reason he was speaking to this group of people as they did not go with him because their lights where demaur had gone out completely. You will want to read Matthew 24 1-13 these are the people that we're locked out of the wedding feast
Why does Josh assume that the YOU is the Church, when A, the Church wasn't birthed yet, B, The disciples asked specific questions regarding Israel, NOT the church, and C, the mystery as spoken by Paul in I. Corinthians, and the letter to the Thessalonians was only given to Paul and not the Original 11?
Thank you for sharing this information. It is so important that the church is ready to endure and not fall away as things accelerate toward the LORD's day. 🙏❤ My husband and I are looking forward to attending the Maranatha End Times Summit in Dallas! It will be great to see Joel in person there.
Please don’t use the word “debunk” in the title. It’s rather low brow for this subject. This channel is better than that. Until we get closer to the end, we all see through a glass darkly. I’ve looked at all positions and have questions about each one. I’m pre trib but if I’m wrong I’ll know what to expect.
Regarding the rapture of the bride of Christ I'm preparing myself in case it is post trib and if it's Pre-trib Hallelujah but I think we should all be prepared to go through the tribulation if necessary
The Tribulation is God's Punishment on a God rejecting World. If you find yourself in the Tribulation, then God dropped you off there because you reject the Gospel of Salvation
@@Pre-Tribulation God's judgment is twofold. There is His anger over sin and sinner, the Greek calls it thumos, it is for repentance, temporary. The punishment is the orge wrath, which comes after the death of the wicked. it does not come in the Tribulation, but after the Trib in Rev 6:17 and 11:15-18 at His 2. coming, when Yeshua treads the wine press of the orge wrath of God (Rev 19:15). The Tribulation is not 7 years, but 3 1/2 years (Dan 12:7; 7:25). God drops Christians also into Great Tribulation (Rev 2:22), if you believe false doctrine. If you love a lie and you make a lie, your salvation is in danger (Rev 21:27; 22:15). What will you do, when you realize, the AC has come and you are still on earth?
@@benny-yj7pq if you believe Jesus drops HIS BODY to demon hordes, Revelation 9:15-16, a pissed off Devil, Revelation 12:12, the AntiChrist, Revelation 13:5-8, and the Mark, Revelation 13:16, then abandonment is a virtue and you should start preaching its OK to abandon our wife, husband, children, loved ones, pets, etc. Remember, Jesus is your example of how we should conduct ourselves.
@@Pre-Tribulation Read Rev 2:22 before you make false accusations. Yeshua drops not His body to demon hordes. Rev 2:22 are Christians that commit spiritual adultery, it is his grace for repentance, if they do not repent, they go to hell. You preach doomsday, a horrible 3 1/2 year Great tribulation, making it even 7 years long. You overlook, that God sends 144000 and His 2 witnesses into the Great Tribulation. You do not know God and His power, to save many in the Great Tribulation out of all nations (Rev 7:9+14). I believe that there is an escape for the last 3 1/2 years, but not through a Rapture, that is not in the bible, but only for those believers with a clean heart, because the Lord takes only a spotless bride. Most Christians have not a clean heart, there is more darkness in them than light, because they do not repent daily and get dirty. They will go through tribulation to cleans them (Dan 12:10)
@@benny-yj7pq Revelation 2:1 KJV Unto the 👉 ANGEL 👈 of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; ^^^ we DON'T have ANGELS over our Body of Christ Church. Jesus is our head and we are His Body. Angels are over ALL churches in Revelation 2&3. They are works based, and a report card is given for their works. All they get is the Crown of Life, and even THAT expires by midpoint and the only way to get the Crown of Life is by being a martyr. We ALL get the Crown of Righteousness in the Age of Grace, or upgraded Crowns. Paul's Church is boogying down IN HEAVEN while the Tribulation Churches endure the AntiChrist.
At one point he is recommending a book to "debunk" PRETRIB. He doesn't say that Dr Brown and Keener also disagree with his pre wrath view. Why do all of these skeptics wanna gang up on pre trib? I never see you debating each other in eschatology videos and comment sections. 🤔
Can't debunk the Bible folks. We are not appointed to wrath as believers. Once the tribulation starts I believe that is wrath. I believe the whole tribulation is a form of wrath. I think it gets worse at the end but it's all bad. Either way we will see soon. We can all agree it's any day now because all the signs are here for the tribulation to start
The Great Flood was wrath. The plagues in Egypt were wrath. God's people weren't removed but were protected. God can provide protection to His obedient beloved during tribulation.
It is very disturbing for me to hear some who claims to be a man of God to say "I try to avoid controversial talk or subjects". This gives me the lack of trust that this person even cares to stand for biblical truth no matter how controversial it is. I'm not saying you should shout your beliefs from the treetops but if the subject is brought forth it needs to be approached with stern biblical truth no matter how much it divides people. No I myself I do not believe in pre-tribulation rapture this is a doctrine taught by spirits of demons not true men of God. Once again I'm not saying that everyone that believes in the rapture is a demon what I'm saying is the doctrine itself is a doctrine of demons and who ever teaches this lie is being lead astray by demons. There are many religious leaders that have rejected the true Holy Spirit of God and have accepted a spirit of demons. I pray that they will turn from there evil way before it's too late.
This gentleman does not seem to understand what the purpose of the tribulation is - to bring the Jewish nation to the realization that Jesus Christ IS their Messiah. The tribulation is not for the church, believers in Jesus. It is "the time of Jacob's trouble"- not the gentiles' trouble. That understanding is fundamental to rightly dividing Scriptures about the last days. I am curious whether he believes in replacement theology. If he believes that the Church has taken the place of Israel as God's chosen people, then his perspective is a little easier to understand. Yes, there are absolutely parts of Scripture that do not directly apply to Christians or gentiles. Those Scriptures are for the Jews, who God has absolutely not abandoned or forgotten. Also, the entire tribulation is God's wrath, so a "Pre-wrath" position makes no sense at all.
Hey, i used to like FAI and still think a lot of the teaching is probably solid, but Dalton Thomas and his wife (the founders) have been accused of (credibly, as far as I can tell) about gross sexual sin and have yet to really step down or find accountability. I would just be wary and check it out just in case it would sway how you support their ministry. I used to LOVE their music too but just can’t… hopefully they repent if the allegations are true
@@kaitlinrose6352 that's history if it's true. We all have fallen and sinned during our walk with Messiah. I don't think it was your place to mention it besides how do you know it's true? Cause you read it somewhere? I don't think Dalton would appreciate it. Would you like it if someone posted something you did on the TH-cam comment section. Your gossiping..you need to repent.
@@meadow9166 I do not believe it is gossiping to warn someone about a potential failure in a leader who has yet to repent. It was not a long time ago. It was not that long before 2020. I can find and link the article if you like. It was VERY long because it was also sharing the shortcoming of the person who wrote it, who also sinned sexually and shared how he came to post the article, after MUCH prayer and humbling himself before church leadership and seeking counsel. He tried to talk to Dalton multiple times and Dalton would always tell him they needed to solve it within FAI only. He didn’t want outside counsel or accountability. Why would the author incriminate himself and show so many details of his own faults if it was a lie? Like I said… I do not know 100% if it is true, but it caused me to not want to learn from him because the article had enough evidence to make me worried it was more likely to be true than false. I genuinely do not believe I sinned by trying to warn others who might also have their faith wounded by really trusting a pastor and then being sorrowfully let down. EVERYONE sins. But we are ALL supposed to repent and step down from leadership if it is a disqualifying sin. None of which he has done
I would appreciate it if Dr. Andy Woods and Joel could discuss this topic on your show. I’ve flip flopped on this subject and would like to nail it down. Studying the Word to show myself approved.
Rememeber two things. 1) any position outside of pre-trib means immanency is gone. 2) there are 8 verses that say that believers aren't subject to God's wrath. It makes it pretty hard to believe mid or post trib if you just use these two topics.
The thief in the night teaching in Matthew 24:36-51 is missing some of what Jesus says in Luke 12:35-48 and is overlooked by pastors teaching from Matthew 24:36-51. In Luke 12:36 we see that the master who represents Jesus returning for His faithful servants who are burning their lamps, waiting and watching for His return; returns FROM the wedding. This indicates the marriage of the Lamb has already occurred by the time Jesus returns to rapture the Church. He comes and sits His servants down and feeds them (marriage supper of the Lamb) who in Luke 12:37 are called blessed which parallels Revelation 19:9. This all points to after the tribulation. Eating, drinking and being given into marriage is referencing the rest of the world like in Noah not the believers necessarily speaking. Think about the holocaust. They were eating, drinking and being given into marriage while the Jewish people were being persecuted and killed. Life was normal for most. The 7 year tribulation does not have the Wrath of Lamb in it like many believe. The 6th seal, the Wrath of the Lamb parallels Matthew 24:29-31 and is opened after the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:4-26 by Jesus. Matthew 24:29 specifically says this. Who then are considered the bride of the Lamb? These are those who the Lord avenge the blood of found in Revelation 19:1-8 who do a righteous act for the namesake of Jesus. These are those in the 5th seal. Revelation 19:11-21 reflects Jesus returning from the wedding at the shout of an angel calling the birds together for the feast. Birds are figurative for faithful servants and flesh is figurative for food. This is food kept from the faithful servants because of the mark of the beast. Jesus will take all that food back from the evil doers who are deceived by taking the mark of the beast. Matthew 24:28, "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together." The carcass represents the whole feast and there will be were the eagles (birds) will be gathered. An example of God using birds as faithful servants is found in 1 Kings 17 when God uses ravens to bring meat to Elijah at the brook. In this story Elijah was told by the Word of the Lord in verse 3, “Get away from here and turn eastward, and hide by the Brook Cherith, which flows into the Jordan." This is similar to what is said in Matthew 24:16, “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."
@@revelationminister1910 Greetings. I am afraid you are connecting dots with birds/food/servants, that just aren’t supported by the text. We know the rapture happens prior to the 7-year trib because there are MANY verses that tell us that believers are not appointed to wrath. Who is the wrath for? Nahum 1:2 says “God reserves wrath for His enemies". Obviously, that is not referring to church age believers. We know that the seal judgements are wrath of Jesus as Revelation 6 plainly states at the end. We aren't appointed to seal judgements as they are wrath. In Matthew 16:18 Jesus says I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Then in Revelation 13:7 it says the Antichrist was given power over all nations to make war with the saints and to overcome them. Well, we already know Satan can’t overcome the church because Jesus said so. So clearly the church must be gone (Raptured) from earth during the tribulation period in which the anti-christ will overcome the church. I’ll leave you with comforting words that Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 - And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. Therefore comfort each other with these words (1 Thess 4:16), referring to the rapture in the prior verse.
@@nick2727 Greetings. I can understand your skepticism in regards to my comments on birds/food/servants; that's ok. That was not anything that was revealed to you. I agree we are not appointed to the wrath in the 6th and 7th seals because they are not in the 7 year tribulation. The problem many have in regards to the 7 year tribulation is it is believed the seal judgements are in the 7 year tribulation. This is not true according to Matthew 24:29-31 which indicates the 6th seal does not open until after the tribulation of those days that Jesus just spoke about in Matthew 24:4-26. Pretribulation doctrine says Matthew 24:15-28 is for Israel and not the Church. You are sharing Nahum 1:2 is saying wrath is for the enemies of God. So you are saying an enemy of God is Israel? The ones He is wanting to save? Matthew 24:29-31 parallel's and describes Revelation 6:12-17 (6th seal). The enemy of God is the one deceiving Israel. Not Israel. This is why the Wrath of the Lamb is not in the 7 year tribulation. The 7 year tribulation will be when God's enemy will come against God's people including the Church. This a time God will use to get Israel's attention before His Wrath is poured out through the judgements. Those of Israel and others too, who do not open their eyes and heed the warning and turn away from their wickedness in worshiping a false god will then suffer the consequences of the Wrath of the Lamb after the 7 years are complete. The job of the two witnesses will be to preach to all of Israel's Jewish and to all nations, tongues and tribes. This will be one of the last chances to hear the gospel short of the angel who will preach the gospel just prior to Jesus's return. Jesus is going to pour down His Wrath on His enemies who came against His people and His people includes the Church. He will avenge the blood of the saints who the enemy will kill. Before His Wrath is poured out He will then resurrect those who are asleep in Jesus unto Himself. Those who remain alive will not by any means precede those who are asleep in Jesus. "By any means" include past, present and future saints which includes saints killed during the tribulation and the two witnesses. Revelation 19:1-8, tells us the bride MAKES herself ready through a righteous act. This righteous act was an act of the saints of the tribulation (5th seal saints) according to Revelation 19:2, 8; Revelation 7:11-14. These are the bride who MAKE herself ready. If you will read Revelation 19:1-9 you will see this and you will also see the Wedding consists of two parts. The marriage of Lamb and then the marriage supper of the Lamb with those who are called blessed. Just like Luke 12:35-40 and Revelation 19:9 states. Revelation 7:11-14 is the same exact scene in Revelation 19:4-8. Oh by the way, here are the 24 elders. They are not the representation of the Church as thought to be. 1 Chronicles 24:7-18, "Now the first lot fell to Jehoiarib, the second to Jedaiah, 8 the third to Harim, the fourth to Seorim, 9 the fifth to Malchijah, the sixth to Mijamin, 10 the seventh to Hakkoz, the eighth to Abijah, 11 the ninth to Jeshua, the tenth to Shecaniah, 12 the eleventh to Eliashib, the twelfth to Jakim, 13 the thirteenth to Huppah, the fourteenth to Jeshebeab, 14 the fifteenth to Bilgah, the sixteenth to Immer, 15 the seventeenth to Hezir, the eighteenth to Happizzez, 16 the nineteenth to Pethahiah, the twentieth to Jehezekel, 17 the twenty-first to Jachin, the twenty-second to Gamul, 18 the twenty-third to Delaiah, the twenty-fourth to Maaziah." If you read further in Revelation 19:17-21, you will see this parallels what is written in Luke 12:35-40. Matthew 24:36-51 which is derived from Luke 12:35-48 is for the Church according to the pretribulation view. In regards to Matthew 16:18 yes Satan is given power to wage war and his agenda will be to overcome the saints. He will try to overcome the Church but will not succeed as we know. This doesn't mean the Church is already raptured before the 7 year tribulation.
Try and explain it in the Context of a pre trib one. It clearly states that day and our gathering ( rapture) will not happen until there is a falling away ( apostasy) and the man of sin is revealed. How can pre fibbers claim the church won't see the antichrist when 2 Thessalonians is clear.
People please be obsessed for the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ Maranatha not Harpazo, the fact that all Rapture incident speak about His Coming and the Trumpet sound is agreeing to the Jesus Christ own very word in Matthew 24: 29ff. If the apostles word is speaking about another kind of coming apart from the source Jesus Christ teaching then that would be bizzare...
I am inclined to the Post-Trib position so this message was greatly appreciated. I need to know how the scripture regarding the removal of "the restrainer" is to be interpreted-----Is it referring to the Church?
Always a one sided argument with the pre and post trib guys. Why don't you have an expert on both positions debate the issue and let people decide based on the word of God.
@Brazen Metz Hey they called on you too! They prayed for my carpel tunnel and my hands feel way better. It's awesome how much God cares for us. I wasn't even thinking about it that day but I had prayed earlier in the week because it was affecting my guitar playing and I was getting bummed out about it. Hallelujah!!!
@@tonypino5415 that’s awesome man! So glad to hear that. Praise the Lord 🙌🏻 I also received healing at the conference and in a similar way! I had issues with my neck from whiplash, and after receiving prayer it completely left! It was bothering me throughout the week but wasn’t on my mind going to the conference. There’s a video on my Instagram if you want to see it!
Not sure why Joel wants to divide and draw a line in the sand because others view it (the catching away or rapture) differently than he. Calling names and attributing a cult following. People will say the word "rapture" is not in the bible. I will respond the word "bible" is not in the bible. In fact, rapture\catching\snatching away\taken away is derived from the translated word harpazo apiemur apio (Greek\Latin). For the simple fact that Joel desires to be right\correct in his views - he is willing to knock other Christians. It is okay to state\say this is my viewpoint\opinion and if need be, why that is. It is also okay to say that this is how I believe and I am not sure how it is all going to go down.......but God does. Battle lines in the sand are not necessary with brothers & sisters in Christ over something that we cannot control. It absolutely serves no purpose. My personal opinion is that there is more biblical evidence for a pre\mid trib rapture over a post trib. I do know that God has not appointed us (those in Christ) to HIS wrath\judgements - how that plays out is upon God. My opinion is that there are much bigger issues - like to spread the good news of Christ.
Wow what a complete lack of understanding of The Bible Maybe you guys should spend some time studying even Polycarp thought there would be a rapture There seems to be a demonic spirit behind these pre-rapture mockers
This content is super valuable at this time stage. I believe it`s the best to be in open attitude for whatever happening. If Jesus say COME, we just go and if he say stay to reap, we stay but sure thing is as Rev 3:10 says, we are protected. Whatever the God`s will be.
Believe, repent, watch and pray always to be accounted worthy to escape all the things that are coming to pass and stand before the Son of man. “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” John 14:1-3 “And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.” Luke 21:34-36
Few consider that and I believe is will be monumental. I read a book years a book written by someone who was a missionary in China before the communists took over. The concerns of the Chinese people was the communists would take over their country but the response of the general missionaries was "the Lord would return and rapture them first." He did not return first and many turned their backs on the missionaries and the gospel. You are right this is very important and many will not accept teaching against rapture. I had a guy tell me once that he would not serve a God who would put him through something like that. I was stunned and did not know what to say. Today I would take the risk of being rude and say "then perhaps you do not."
Three simple ones who can't find truth Raptures in your own Bible that you refuse to study 1-enoch was raptured 2 - Moses body 3- Elijah was raptured 4- Jesus was raptured 5- the old testament saints from Abrams bosom were raptured and passing though Jerusalem were seen of many 6- the day of Jesus christ is going to happen 5993 from creation or 1993 years after christ was raptured before the 7 years of wrath 7- The jews are raptured by the angels from the four winds to Jerusalem to meet jesus as he rids in to slay the armies of the antichrist at the end of daniels 70th week
@@forevereign7759 Yes but that alone is enough to make a LOT of people question their faith in God. Tribulation is coming for us all, and it will cause many who believe to fall away and be forever lost. Only those who remain faithful until death will be saved.
That does not sound like "In a twinkling of an eye" in Paul's epistle. Joel Richardson said in Matthew 24:29, "that all people will mourn and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds." I don't think they can see that in a twinkling of an eye and mourn. I don't listen and believe what people or preachers say, I read it and depend on the Holy Spirit to teach me. Sorry Pre-trib is biblical. God bless 🙌 🙏
What does an understanding of the New Covenant do to the Pretrib Rapture doctrine? Since the New Covenant is “everlasting” in Hebrews 13:20, how is the New Covenant Church age going to end seven years before the Second Coming of Christ? Why would anyone think God is going back to the Old Covenant system now made “obsolete” by the New Covenant in Hebrews 8:13? We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24. Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it. The Capitol "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 of this passage proves at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the people of God. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. "It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view." (The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197.) Tim LaHaye was co-author of the “Left Behind” books and movies which have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Church age ends seven years before the Second Coming of Christ. Recently, Pastor Matt Furse of Mountain View Baptist Church in Custer, S.D. has written a book titled “Which One Is Right?’, which reveals the recent history of the pretrib rapture doctrine, and the fact it does not agree with what is written in the King James Bible. The gathering of the Church is described at the end of 1 Thess. Chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5. The word “But” in the first verse of chapter 5 connects the two chapters, and the words “we” and “sleep” in verse 10 of chapter 5 prove the two chapters are connected. The Greek words for “wrath” and “tribulation” are not the same word, as proven by the verse below. Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Watch the TH-cam video “Pretribulation Paradox” by former pretrib believer skydiver626.
@@Pre-Tribulation Heb 13:20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant. :::::::::::::::: Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah- Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many. Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. 1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." 2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH- Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Not sure I like the sarcasm used when quoting Rev 3:10, Rev 4:1 caught up in Heaven, the way his voice emphasized in ridicule over pre Tribbers. Which believe the believers are not subject to the hour of Judgement coming on the whole World. And Rev 2:10 is Tribulation for 10 days, not to be held in comparison to the Rev 3:10 hour of judgement on the World . 55 min caught up into Heaven sounds kind of Raptury rolls eyes.
I was told I could sit in the back of the church but I wasn't allowed to talk to anyone about NOT believing the pretrib rapture, because it is a denominational doctrine and you cannot go against doctrine.
You will never grow in ANY propositionally based "church." Find a smaller group, a Bible study, etc. Remember, the church = Holy Spirit filled true believers, NOT a man-made organization!
What does an understanding of the New Covenant do to the Pretrib Rapture doctrine? Since the New Covenant is “everlasting” in Hebrews 13:20, how is the New Covenant Church age going to end seven years before the Second Coming of Christ? Why would anyone think God is going back to the Old Covenant system now made “obsolete” by the New Covenant in Hebrews 8:13? We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24. Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it. The Capitol "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 of this passage proves at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the people of God. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. "It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view." (The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197.) Tim LaHaye was co-author of the “Left Behind” books and movies which have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Church age ends seven years before the Second Coming of Christ. Recently, Pastor Matt Furse of Mountain View Baptist Church in Custer, S.D. has written a book titled “Which One Is Right?’, which reveals the recent history of the pretrib rapture doctrine, and the fact it does not agree with what is written in the King James Bible. The gathering of the Church is described at the end of 1 Thess. Chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5. The word “But” in the first verse of chapter 5 connects the two chapters, and the words “we” and “sleep” in verse 10 of chapter 5 prove the two chapters are connected. The Greek words for “wrath” and “tribulation” are not the same word, as proven by the verse below. Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Watch the TH-cam video “Pretribulation Paradox” by former pretrib believer skydiver626.
The day of Jesus christ is only ever mentioned by the apostle paul Raptures in your own Bible that you refuse to study 1-enoch was raptured 2 - Moses body 3- Elijah was raptured 4- Jesus was raptured 5- the old testament saints from Abrams bosom were raptured and passing though Jerusalem were seen of many 6- the day of Jesus christ is going to happen 5993 from creation or 1993 years after christ was raptured before the 7 years of wrath 7- The day of the Lord when the jews are raptured by the angels from the four winds to Jerusalem to meet jesus as he rids in to slay the armies of the antichrist at the end of daniels 70th week The mystery rapture is only revealed to the apostle Paul found only n the letters to the church's Stop looking in Matthew for a day of Jesus christ as it wasn't revealed yet Matthew only mentions the day of the Lord a rapture or gathering of the jews by the angel's after the 70th week
The day of Jesus christ is only ever mentioned by the apostle paul Raptures in your own Bible that you refuse to study 1-enoch was raptured 2 - Moses body 3- Elijah was raptured 4- Jesus was raptured 5- the old testament saints from Abrams bosom were raptured and passing though Jerusalem were seen of many 6- the day of Jesus christ is going to happen 5993 from creation or 1993 years after christ was raptured before the 7 years of wrath 7- The day of the Lord when the jews are raptured by the angels from the four winds to Jerusalem to meet jesus as he rids in to slay the armies of the antichrist at the end of daniels 70th week The mystery rapture is only revealed to the apostle Paul found only n the letters to the church's Stop looking in Matthew for a day of Jesus christ as it wasn't revealed yet Matthew only mentions the day of the Lord a rapture or gathering of the jews by the angel's after the 70th week
If you consider that Rev 3:10 was written to the specific church of Philadelphia of that day, and Jesus said He would keep them from the day of wrath, well He did that already, because they have all passed on before the tribulation of the last days has come! So He DID keep them from it!
LOVE this chat! Man it’s just the plain reading of scripture. Pre trib just is so far reaching and playing around with the text. You guys also crack me uo
I do not give an ear to anyone preaching anything other than a pre-trib rapture. Including this one. I have heard it all and I believe in a pre trib rapture. It is our blessed hope and we are told to comfort one another with this word.
I suggest you read Scripture with an open mind. If you can keep your bias on hold, you should be able to understand why everyone doesn't agree with pre-trib rapture.
The pre tribulation rapture is causing division not Joel. He is speaking truth..read your Bible you'll see if you have eyes and ears to hear what it's saying. Don't blame the brother who is trying to share truth with us. Watch a channel that lies to you.
@@meadow9166 no it’s not! I’m pretrib all my life and I never hear any of those teachers disparage people who believe different like this man just did.
Wow, well, I started listening to this to see if Joel had factual information that stood up well against the pretribulation rapture (PTR). Before I list just 3 examples of him misrepresenting, accidently I'm sure, what PTR teaches, I MUST say that I lost all respect for him when he jumped at the chance to NAME those preachers whom he feels are teaching the wrong theory, i.e. not Joel's theory. (Jesus said: For he that is not against us is for us” (Mark 9:38-40). What's obvious is these pastors are bringing MANY into the Kingdom and you guys are judging another man's servant. Also I don't follow these pastors so I don't have a motive. Now, the examples: In my 40ish years of studying the PTR, as well as MTR, PTR, etc., I've NEVER heard PTR teach some of the things Joel's saying they teach! The 1st and easiest to debunk is the yoyo theory! The only ones I've heard teach that are those who don't have fact to discuss the PTR so they hide behind bullying and ridicule. 2. The father of the groom tells his son, "you must wait, not now, not now, ok...GO"! PTRs believe, The father tells his son, the groom, "when I have given my approval of the house you have prepared for your bride, THEN I will tell you to go get her." 3. Those that don't believe PTR are kicked out of the church! Come on! My husband and I were military for 20 yrs so we've belonged to several churches. I've always been open about my studies on rapture opinions. I have NEVER been ostracized, etc. I attended an Assembly of God University for 6 years. What they always stressed is, "hope for the best, prepare for the worst." Very disappointing program in so many ways...
Words of Jesus himself Luke 21:36 But keep alert at all times [be attentive and ready], praying that you may have the strength and ability [to be found worthy and] to "ESCAPE" all these things that are going to take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man [at His coming].” 1 Thes 5:9 Amplified Bible For God HAS NOT destined us to [incur His] wrath [that is, He did not select us to condemn us], but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
@@melanierollins508me too, mid and post trib tosses out doctrine of imminence, among other things. 95% of the church is already in heaven and without purifying themselves by enduring the tribulation.
The Pre-Trib Rature is the enemy’s torpedo that will hit every person who believes in it amidships right below the waterline. It will take a while to sink, but the faith of many will grow cold and many (most) will leave the faith. Because, if our Pastors missed it on this doctrine so thoroughly, what else is a lie? Maybe all of it. This is an important discussion. Thanks!
The day of Jesus christ is only ever mentioned by the apostle paul Raptures in your own Bible that you refuse to study 1-enoch was raptured 2 - Moses body 3- Elijah was raptured 4- Jesus was raptured 5- the old testament saints from Abrams bosom were raptured and passing though Jerusalem were seen of many 6- the day of Jesus christ is going to happen 5993 from creation or 1993 years after christ was raptured before the 7 years of wrath 7- The day of the Lord when the jews are raptured by the angels from the four winds to Jerusalem to meet jesus as he rids in to slay the armies of the antichrist at the end of daniels 70th week The mystery rapture is only revealed to the apostle Paul found only n the letters to the church's Stop looking in Matthew for a day of Jesus christ as it wasn't revealed yet Matthew only mentions the day of the Lord a rapture or gathering of the jews by the angel's after the 70th week
Compared to the evidence supporting a pre-trib rapture, Joel’s argument is very weak. I’ve heard better arguments against pre-trib from more sociable individuals. His attack on the way Josh asked a question was ridiculous! Joel gets one star for his argument and zero stars for character.
For those considering Joel's take on the timing of the rapture and the distinction between tribulation (Satan's persecution of Christians and Jews) and God's Wrath (His judgment on unbelievers via Trumpet and Bowl judgments), consider this... The disciples asked Jesus 'What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?' In his answer, Jesus listed, in order, a dozen or so events that had to happen (culminating in the darkening of the sun and moon and the falling of the stars) just prior to his appearance in the clouds and His gathering of the elect (Rapture). Then in Revelation, Jesus showed John a similar list of events. And He covered many of those events twice, in two separate visions... once in Rev 6-7 and again in Rev 12-14 (where He introduced more characters to the story and added more detail). Here's a comparison of those events in Matthew 24 and in Revelation: Event Matt Revelation (2 visions, same events) False Christs 24:46:113:8 (1st Seal) Wars 24:66:313:7 (2nd Seal) Famines, Earthquakes (Pestilence Luke 21:11) 24:76:5-8 13:16 (3rd & 4th Seals) Persecution, Martyrdom 24:96:913:10-15 (5th Seal) False prophets 24:1113:11-14 Gospel to all nations 24:1414:6 Abomination of Desolation 24:1512:6 Flee Judea 24:1612:6-16 Beginning of 'great tribulation' 24:217:1412:17 Days of Great Tribulation 'cut short' 24:22 Sun & moon darkened, stars fall 24:296:12 (6th Seal) Jesus' 2nd Coming (on the clouds) 24:306:1514:14 (6th Seal) Gathering of the elect (Rapture) 24:317:2-14 14:15 (6th Seal) There is no 7-year 'Tribulation'. Scripture only mentions a period of 'great tribulation' (Matt 24:21, Rev 7:14) which starts after the Abomination of Desolation and lasts 42 months (Dan 9). And based on Jesus' answer, it appears Daniel's 70th Week will be split into 4 parts: 1. Beginning of birth pains (seems to include Seals 1-4 as Antichrist gains political power) 2. Great Tribulation (Seal 5, begins at the mid-point when Antichrist declares himself god and then persecutes Christians and Jews) 3. Jesus' 2nd Coming (Seal 6, on the clouds, marking of the 144,000, the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the rapture) 4. The end (seems to be referring to God's judgment/wrath) Note that Jesus didn't specifically mention God's Wrath in Matt 24 other than to say "And then, the end will come". But He did reveal God's Wrath to John in Rev 8-11 (Trumpet Judgments) and in Rev 15-20 (Bowl Judgments). The chapters in between (Rev 12-14) are a recap of the events of Rev 6-7 where he introduces new characters and provides more detail. God's judgment happens AFTER Jesus appears on the clouds (Seal 6) and the scroll is fully opened (Seal 7). Once we realize that Jesus described the events leading up to his return in two separate visions (Rev 6-7 and Rev 12-14), Revelation becomes much less confusing. It also helps to know that the scroll contains the Father's instructions for his wrath and that his wrath can't begin until the scroll is fully opened (wrath starts with Seal 7 in Rev 8). Hope this helps someone.
The problem is we have a body believing "Best life now". They have rejected the reality that "You will be hated by all men for my name's sake". So, they reject the notion that persecution will come to their doorstep. They are not prepared to suffer hardship for Christ's names sake. The hold fast to a pre-trib rapture because they rejected suffering for Christ.
The Rapture isn't to escape persecution! Although... it will escape that too... The Rapture is to escape the "Thief in the night", or, "Snare" event that tests the whole world with Mark or No Mark. We escape judgment as Days of Noah and Days of Lot or Jesus would not have mentioned this about End Times
I think you are missing the deeper issue of why such a doctrine is able the thrive. A large majority of the American church does not teach a Theology of Suffering, therefore the church has no framework or expectation of suffering as reality.
Exactly. This whole "pre-trib" doctrine that 90+ percent of the American church ascribes to is one designed to appeal to our fleshly nature, since we don't like the idea of suffering. We're spoiled beyond belief in this country, and the Tribulation is going to test the church's faithfulness to God in the days to come. Unfortunately, the vast majority of self-proclaimed believers will fail the test and fall away, leaving behind a tiny faithful remnant that will be saved. This is the great apostasy that the Bible says must take place.
I think the word “debunked” doesn’t mean what you think it means. A better way to state your position would be that we disagree and time will soon tell who was correct. Though I am pretrib, that does not mean that I think believers will escape persecution, history bears that out. After having Twitter conversations with Joel, to be honest I found that any disagreement will find you on the receiving side of insults and divisive language. How about a environment of “we agree to disagree” while still remaining brothers in Christ?
I agree with him on the rapture, but I have found that to be true regarding when he disagrees with people
Looks like you’ll both have more time to find unity, if neither has been martyred at that point which would be most honorable to die for our Lord.
What you described your Twitter conversations wasn't persecution of biblical proportions. I believe he was just trying to warn those of pre-trib beliefs, especially in the West, that it's going to get extremely bad with serious persecution, ie. Being physically tortured, and killed. Possibly watching family be threatened with death or killed in front of you. His warning is valid. How many Christians do you think would stand for Christ under those circumstances, if they believed that they wouldn't be here for it? How many would fall away? There is no reason to take offense, it's something all Christians must think about regardless of their differing opinions. We all should be praying that we are able to stand no matter how we may suffer. The flesh is weak. We must be ready.
I don’t like the equating of Satan’s persecution of the church or even just the world coming against the church and tribulation. I’m pre trib and tired of people saying we’re just fear dodgers. I believe the difference is between true tribulations in the world and the great tribulation that comes form God. That’s the time of Jacob’s trouble, not the churches. Jesus said I will spare you from the hour of trial that comes upon the whole earth.
The biggest issue with pre trib dogma is its almost always tied to Zionism which has nothing to do with biblical prophecy or Christianity at all.
It's a deception that germinated and to root in the 19th century
✨I’m a ‘Pre-tribber’ and a Christian who is a Premillennialist. Watched your program because I wanted to hear Joel Richardson’s Post Trib position. Listened to the end. Appreciated that at his opening remarks that he felt it was a premiere pastoral issue and that there was pastoral danger in regard to the PreTrib position.
✨ It was though very grieving to hear him remark at the start too that there was a ‘Cognitive dissonance, almost cultic on the part of the Pre-trib position, that it’s like talking to Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses.’ Don’t understand why he made these ad hominem attacks especially when one considers the respected Godly Christian teachers who hold to the Pre-Trib view like Chuck Missler, Jay Vernon McGee, Andy Woods among others.
✨Although Mr. Richardson made good points specifically on Rev. 3:10 and the dispute over the Galillean and Jewish Wedding difference issue. However, still disagree with his view on Matthew 24, John 14, Acts 1:11, 1 Cor. 15:51-41, 1Thess 4:15-17; these verses I believe strongly support the Pre-Trib position especially in conjunction with Isaiah 2, Daniel 9:20-27, Ezekiel 40-48 among others.
✨And he is clearly wrong regarding that the “Church” (ekklesia) Strong’s 1577 is referred to throughout all of Revelation. Reference to the “Church” (ekklesia) is mentioned only through Rev.1 to 3:22, then mentioned only once more in Rev. 22:16. He is correct that the word “Saints” is mentioned, however
that word starts in Rev.5:8 and then throughout the rest of the Book.
✨Also he seemed to be very angered at the interpretation by some Pre-Trib teachers of 2 Thess. 2:3 specifically regarding the word apostasy (apostasia) being interpreted as a “Departing”. Although he accurately stated that there was debate even among Pre-Trib people over the interpretation of this word. He was angered that some would twist it to mean “Departing”. Does he not know that The 1599 Geneva Bible which was in print years before the King James Bible uses “departing” in that specific verse? His accusation of twisting the Scripture is unfounded.
✨Throughout his discussion there were further repeated derogatory attacks that the pastors who held a Pre-Trib view were false prophets twisting scripture. And although in his closing remarks he said that he affirmed that those who held to a Pre-Trib view were his “brothers and sisters” and he meant no hostility. He came across by these remarks as hypocritical and disingenuous because of his hostile and ad hominem attacks.
✨ I believe throughout most of the Book of Revelation The LORD specifically deals with the Nation of Israel and their relationship to their Messiah - The LORD JESUS and fulfilling HIS Promises to them specifically outlined and evidenced in The Torah and throughout the Old Testament. And the Judgment of the Nations and unbelieving world as seen in Psalm 2.
✨it was disheartening to hear such a derogatory stance towards fellow brothers and sisters in CHRIST who hold to an opinion in favor of a PreTrib Rapture. In contrast, although each of the gentlemen on your show do not hold to a Pretrib Rapture, does not cause me to have a derogatory opinion of you all at all. I understand that there is differing opinions on this subject, no problem I get it.
✨Instead why not perhaps make a case among yourselves using Scripture and take it upon yourselves - to go over each and every point of those like Andy Woods who hold to the Pretrib Rapture and show why you all do not hold to it Scripturally without the hostility and derogatory nature.
Thank you for stating the point clearly and with good scripture. I am pre trib and spent the last 3 years going over all aspects of eschatology and rapture teachings. I hold to pre trib because I do believe, like you, that it is biblical and that the tribulation is for the Jews. I believe those who are called out and sealed by the Lord will be saved in that time.
I’m sad at the derogatory stance many who don’t hold to pre trib take and mock us repeatedly. Jess Durbin has been bad at that as well as Joel Webbon.
It’s not like we don’t give a scriptural basis, yet we’re characterised as newspaper exegetes who want to have perfect lives.
Thank you. I won't bother watching the video based on your comment. I am 100% pre-Tribulation rapture, and my first rapture dream was on 3/16/2017 (have had several) and God told me to start doing videos afterwards. The born again church isn't going to be here for a minute of THE Tribulation. I had another rapture dream on 1/9. Jesus is our Bridegroom, and we (the church) are betrothed to Jesus to be in the wedding chamber (heaven) for seven years. Maranatha.
@@WalkingbytheSpiritAlways Amen Brother or Sister!! I myself have had like 7 or 8 Rapture Dreams like in the past 10 or so years! My daughter just had one the other day and I believe Very Very Very Soon that we will be getting Caught Up With Our Lord Jesus Christ In The Clouds ☁️ Of Heaven 🙏🙏🙏🙏
@@danielwarton5343 Thank You So Much for your comment. It was Very Encouraging and So Well Said! I don’t think I’ll ever understand the condescension and hostility that a lot of those who hold another view on the timing of the Rapture and the Tribulation have against PreTrib people. It doesn’t make any sense.
@@WalkingbytheSpiritAlways Thank You So Much for your comment! It was So Kind!
Dr. Andy Woods has a very thorough series of videos on YT defending pre-trib and debunking other positions - might I suggest him as a guest to defend pre-trib?
If you haven't heard of them yet, Prophecy Watchers are also fantastic resources on this subject as well. And have a multitude of super interesting topics and interviews.
Absolutely agree with you! They should have Pastor Andy Woods on - who gives a Very Sound defense of the PreTrib Rapture!
Andy teaches (dispensational) 1 Thes 4:13-17 is the pre-trib rapture and Luke 17:22-37 is the second coming. I think that is backwards.
Like the days of Lot and Noah is pre-trib because the wicked are caught unaware (Matt 24:39). Life is normal (eating, drinking, etc.).
Whereas at the second coming most are hiding in a cave (Rev 6:15-17) and freaking out (Luke 21:26).
Non-dispensational's teach Luke 17 and 1 Thes 4 are both pre-trib and the same event.
I would say Luke 17 is pre-trib without a resurrection (verse 37). There is only one resurrection (John 6:40-54, 11:24, Rev 20:4-6, 1 Cor 15:52). It is on the last day, last trump.
Why have a resurrection pre-trib? Those in heaven today are not naked in heaven (2 Cor 5:1-6). They have a heavenly body (1 Cor 15:40).
The pre-trib rapture is like a natural death. There is a flash of light and we leave our flesh on earth.
1 Thes 4:13-17 is the second coming with THE resurrection.
Love Dr Andy Woods !
I second this!! 70+ messages all about the Rapture and the Scriptures supporting it, but also going deep into the other escatalogical views.
I was raised pre-trib because it was what I was taught and never actually questioned it until someone challenged me to read Scripture for myself. I scoured through my ‘67 Scofield Reference Bible that I had for 20 some years and couldn’t find a single passage that supported it. I found the FAI channel a couple years later and watched Dalton Thomas’s video explaining what I discovered on my own and have been preparing to endure until the end ever since. I’m sorry, but this is a doctrine we can’t really afford to get wrong. Too many people will be disillusioned and turn from God if they find out their “great escape” doesn’t happen.
I have the same Bible passed down to me from my late grandfather (SBC). It’s very interesting how my fathers generation can describe pre-trib rapture so well and yet often lack such a basic understanding of more central doctrines.
Secondstorybibles - Read the chapter about how God will ABANDON people who love Him to the Devil, Revelation 12:12. Then read the chapter where God is really Allah. Allah tosses innocence into Hell for no reason too! Read about how God will judge the righteous with the wicked and make the righteous equal with the wiked!
Oh wait... none of this is in the Bible!
@@bencooper8668 amusing fibs
@@logiciskey7 what part chief?
l
I think the scriptures are pretty clear that we're not going to be here for God's wrath. We'll be here for some of the tribulations caused by man and not the Tribulation of God.
Amen brother
What makes that clear?
What if there’s no “rapture” and no second coming with trumpets for Israel? What if there’s a quiet, peaceful “appearing” (Colossians 3:4, “appears” KJV) suddenly and without any fanfare (because God no longer has any wrath at all for Israel or sinners or anyone because his Son paid that penalty at Calvary and his casting away of his chosen people in Acts 28:28-31 KJV frees him up to show grace to everyone, but especially to those that believe. Salvation is now the free gift of Ephesians 2:8&9 KJV. Those who accept it will, alive or resurrected, go into the kingdom of God’s dear Son; those that don’t will be left in the grave. Those lucky enough to be alive when Christ appears will have no choice but to believe so they will be allowed to stay.
"Rapture," @@dfkuz, equals the Second Advent; Jesus is only coming back one more time, not two.
Please read revelation chapters 4-5, then let me know if you still believe we’ll be here for any of the tribulation
Joel I’m so excited to hear you say there is no PreTib Rapture. My husband and I have been so concerned for the people in Churches that are taught there is no need to worry you’ll be out of here before the Tribulation, hence they are not preparing to be purified to receive their Messiah. Thank you for making this clear and preaching the Kingdom on earth to come.🙏❤️
He said it. Careful what you believe. Saying something does not make it true. The rapture hasn't happened yet. Believe in the Lord and always be ready.
The bible is actually very clear, that the pretrib rapture idea is a myth. It emerged around 1830.
Jesus debunked the pretrip rapture in Matthew. Paul debunked it in 2 Thess 1:5-8 when you told them the church would not get relief from tribulation prior to judgement day. Very clear. Pretrib was invented by Darby. No historical evidence of that notion prior to him, as far as I can find
I'm sure it is a pre trib Rapture. ♥️ Scripture dosent support mid or later.
when does the debunk get started?
I've studied scripture for most of my adult life. In my 60s now. Over the past five or so years The end times became a passion I'd sort of avoided up until then. Since, however, after years of study, I am pretty close to where Joel is. It wasn't as a result of hearing him first, because I didn't. It was more of hearing him and realizing others are gleaning the same things. Hey my brothers who are pretrib, I sure hope you are right. I don't see it in the Word. I think things are gonna get pretty rough before He comes for us...I want to be wrong. I just don't think that is what is revealed in scripture.
One thing I will add, the "scholars" of Jesus' day got it so wrong to the point the "experts" crucified the King because He failed to meet their expectations of a Messiah (of course it was to fulfill scripture and had to be) but they missed it big time. It very well may be we will be as surprised on some points as well.
He knows all, we do not. During the wait in the midst of disagreements it is clear that His desire was that we love one another...as we study...
I'd gone along with the Rapture because it seemed to be taught every where and Chuck Missler who I love also taught it. But something always bugged me, and when The Left Behind series came out, I was EMBARRASSED because it was so ridiculous. I asked the Lord about the pretrib rapture and told Him it didn't make sense. Finally, I listened to Craig Keener, The Remnant guys, and others who refused to go along with an unscriptural system, and I felt a huge wave of
Woops.... P2,
I felt a huge wave of relief, because I KNEW it was not true and there were brethren who agreed with that.
Totally agree with you.
I am also in my 60's and studied the Bible but my studies show that there is a pre-trib.. if there is no pre-trib that means we are going through the tribulation. And there no scriptures to support it
Then you need to study 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. “Shall be caught up” is the rapture. It’s very easy to understand. Might need to get your “Wanters” fixed.
I am a pre-tribber and have really tried to put aside my own convictions and listen to Joel on this. But there are far too many questions he simply dodges and does not answer convincingly. His main point that Im kind of getting out of this is that Christians will be disappointed and lose their faith if they find themselves in the tribulation. I find that very generic and speculative. Most of the pre-tribbers are very aware of all the aspects of tribulation and the sequence, and so if we were to find ourselves in such a situation, we would be equipped to stand in the faith. On the other hand, I really think Joel should address those who follow the kingdom-now theology, amillenialism, preterism etc. Those guys dont even believe in a actual 7 year tribulation period. I'm sure they'll be more disappointed to find themselves in one.
When it comes to pre-trib being a recent doctrine, thats already been addressed by a lot of bible scholars like Thomas ice, Andy woods etc. What I think is that sometimes christians take everything that the early church believed in as a standard. Thats what a lot of reformers do. We need to understand that there was never a point where the church was absolutely free from false teachings. False teachings started even in the time of Paul. So we can't say pre-trib is false just because it wasn't taught in the early church.
Theres a lot of prophecy is the Bible that only becomes clear as time passes. In the early 1900s, christians didnt know what to make of all the prophecies about Israel because it didnt even exist as a nation back then. It was only in 1940s and 1950s that christians began to look at it as a fulfillment of prophecy. Similarly, pre-trib rapture is becoming more popular now because many are able to see the the context of those verses better as time passes.
Lastly, Joel talks about the insignificance of types and shadows. That thr jewish wedding has absolutely nothing to do with the rapture. Well, the parable of the ten virgins is based on a jewish wedding. Jesus used a lot of typology to put His point across. Even the old testament feasts and festivals are a picture of Jesus. The scriptures say that the temple on earth was a copy of the true temple in heaven. The priest and the offerings were a picture of our High Priest Jesus and His offering of Himself for our sins. The passover was a shadow of Jesus' sacrifice. The israelite journey during the wilderness and their entering the promised land is a picture of our own journey in our sinfulness and how we enter the rest of Christ. The scripture is replete with types and shadows. So when pre-tribbers say that a jewish wedding depicts a picture of rapture and how Jesus as our bridgeroom says to His bride the Church, I go and prepare a place for you, thats not a far fetch at all in my opinion.
Anyways, there are many other points that cant be articulated in a limited space or time.
Thank you Remnant Radio for bringing in Joel Richardson. I know you brought on Jimmy Evans representing pretrib, but might I suggest somebody who is a stronger speaker like Amir Tsarfati, Barry Stagner or Jack Hibbs to come and speak on yout show?
Oh I just remembered- don't the post tribbers use the example of the ambassador of a country being recalled and removed out of his position before a war themselves??
Explain tribulation saints?
@@I_Negan_I Tribulation saints are those who believe during that period, specifically, Israel. The Tribulation is the final seven of the seventy-sevens of Daniel 9:24-27 which is specific to Israel and spelled out in Revelation. The saints of the Old Testament are not the Church, they are Israel, and if the Bride is taken to the Father's house (John 14:1-3) that again leaves Israel as the saints of the Tribulation. Two witnesses in Jerusalem, the measuring of the Temple in Jerusalem, the 144,000 Sons of Israel, etc., are all pointing toward Israel. References and illusions to the Old Testament are replete throughout the book of Revelation which should be a giant sign to anyone with a good working knowledge of those writings.
The biggest stumbling block to understanding the focus of the final seven is the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The Church adopts that as sacred to itself, when in fact it is Christ fulfilling the Law and the Prophets, and setting the stage for the New Covenant, which is rejected by Israel, that is, "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 10:6; 15:24). The Gospels are the segue between Old and New. Israel failed to recognize the time of their visitation, opening the door to the Gentiles.
Comfort One another ~
@@williamredfield6006 wrong. The Bible doesn’t specify what saints are better than other saints.
Paul rules out a pre trib rapture very clearly in 2 Thess 1:6-8 when he tells them they wont get relief from their trials and tribs until Jesus returns on judgement day; not 7 years earlier. This passage by Paul is straightforward and every pre tribber I communicate with just avoids it. Your thoughts on whether this passage allows for a pretrib gathering? Regarding a 7-year period, this comes only from Daniel 9, and I am pretty sure that Scofield in 1909 was the first to postulate that there was a huge time gap between the weeks of Daniel. But, Daniel 9 strongly implies that all 70 weeks are completed before the temple was destroyed (70 a.d.) and that it was Messiah who ended sacrifice and grain offerings in the middle of the final week. I cant find any pre Darby scholar who thought the 70th week wasnt completed.
@@rustys5111 thank you so much for posting that because I was of the same mindset despite the fact I was raised in a pre trib church. The time gap theory has always fascinated me for I always wonder if that was used to justify the pre trib stance.
Pretribbers believe in a 2nd and 3rd coming. Don't believe it? Paul calls the rapture the Lord's coming (see 1 Thess. 4:15). Notice that Paul does not just call it a visitation or a descending, but a coming. So that is his supposed 2nd coming. Then Matt. 24 talks about his coming at the end of the age, that would be the supposed 3rd coming. But that is incorrect. There is only one 2nd coming, at the end of the age, after the tribulation of those days, when he raises us up on the last day and gathers us in the rapture.
pretrib is not modern .. Go do research on the early church fathers teachings you will find pre-trib
No just no
We had been at war on between pre-Tribulation Rapture and post-Tribulation Rapture. I believe in Post-Tribulation rapture for sure because Christ comes gathering at end of Tribulation. pre-Tribulation Rapture has a lot of missing content
I started to feel like Bible is made up bs cuz people fighting over everything including pre-Tribulation Rapture and post-Tribulation Rapture
The people that believe in the rapture will fight you in a very mean way but yet they think they are worthy of being rapture
Contentiousness is not a fruit of the Spirit and whether you are pre-trib or post-trib does not determine who might fall away or not. If rapture is post-trib many who were pre-trib believers will stand and many who were post-trib will fall. May humility and grace through faith keep us all.
In the Book of Jude, we are commanded to contend for the faith.
I was pre trib for a long time. When I started reading the verses and reading early church history I switched to a post tribulation. What did it for me was the mention of dead in christ rising first and those who are alive and remain will be caught up together in the air.... it mentions dead bodies being raised. This isn't mentioned happening twice, but yet people will die during the tribulation.
Correct, pre trib requires many theories and illogical assumptions, such as the one you point out.
There would need to be two resurrections.
I think you should read the Bible again. There are several resurrections mentioned in the Bible. The 1 you mentioned above and the man who fell on Elishas body, those who rose with Christ, after the crucifixion, Christ, Lazarus, Jairus daughter, the 2 witnesses, the OT saints in Daniel 12, the Tribulation saints in Revelation 20. Your ? should be who are those that are on the thrones.
Who is caught up?
Enoch, Elijah, the 2 witnesses, Christ, and the Bride.
Something that might be helpful to you in understanding this part about the dead bodies is knowing that you are comparing 2 different "people groups" (for lack of a better term). The dead in Christ are Christians that have died over the last 2000 years. Because they are a part of the "Bride of Christ", they get to be a part of the "catching up", hence, the dead in Christ rising. The people who die during the tribulation will not be a part of the "Bride in Christ". They are Tribulation Saints. There is no "dead in Christ rising" for them. When they die, they just go to Heaven. Hope that helps.
First of all there are many the dead in Christ rice first there’s many reasons situations of the dead not just the one mentioned here the dead in Christ will rise at the rapture the dead that are not in Christ will rise at the end of the millennium Lazarus rose from the dead so on and so on so there’s not only one raising from the dead there’s also not one rapture in the Bible there are several Enoch was rapture Jesus was ruptured the church will be rapture so by changing your pre-tribulation rapture point of view to a post-tribulation rapture point of view based on this statement that the dead in Christ will rise first and we who are alive and remain shall be caught up is incorrect. He has always been consistent on removing the bride before the Raph the Bible even speaks of the restrainer being taken out of the way before the man of perdition is revealed so the church is that which restrain us we are salt and light in the Earth, and we want must be taken. Out-of-the-way first
The day of Jesus christ is only ever mentioned by the apostle paul
Raptures in your own Bible that you refuse to study
1-enoch was raptured
2 - Moses body
3- Elijah was raptured
4- Jesus was raptured
5- the old testament saints from Abrams bosom were raptured and passing though Jerusalem were seen of many
6- the day of Jesus christ is going to happen 5993 from creation or 1993 years after christ was raptured before the 7 years of wrath
7- The day of the Lord when the jews are raptured by the angels from the four winds to Jerusalem to meet jesus as he rids in to slay the armies of the antichrist at the end of daniels 70th week
The mystery rapture is only revealed to the apostle Paul found only n the letters to the church's
Stop looking in Matthew for a day of Jesus christ as it wasn't revealed yet
Matthew only mentions the day of the Lord a rapture or gathering of the jews by the angel's after the 70th week
I would like to see Joel and Andy Woods have a discussion on the topic
Andy Woods would shred him into pieces.
Three simple ones who can't find truth
Raptures in your own Bible that you refuse to study
1-enoch was raptured
2 - Moses body
3- Elijah was raptured
4- Jesus was raptured
5- the old testament saints from Abrams bosom were raptured and passing though Jerusalem were seen of many
6- the day of Jesus christ is going to happen 5993 from creation or 1993 years after christ was raptured before the 7 years of wrath
7- The jews are raptured by the angels from the four winds to Jerusalem to meet jesus as he rids in to slay the armies of the antichrist at the end of daniels 70th week
prophecy is bullshit
Be sure, Andy Woods will not discuss the Rapture with Joel, he is running.
@@ChrisPerkins-i7h That's grasping at straws.
1)Enoch was taken away, but NOT to escape any coming dangers. He was taken *365* YEARS before the flood!
2) Moses died and his body was BURIED by God. (Deut. 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
3) Elijah was removed AFTER all of the danger had passed. So, yes. That would actually be a preshadow of the "Rescue of all who are in THE BOOK" that Daniel spoke of. It comes AFTER.
4) Jesus was resurrected and stayed on earth for 40 days. He was not alive and changed to immortal without facing death. Also, He was taken to Heaven AFTER he had suffered and died. He did not get whisked off the planet to avoid persecution and death.
5) The OT Saints were DEAD. They were resurrected and walked on EARTH, they were not translated to immortals while still alive, nor were they bodily whisked off to Heaven. It actually never states how long they remained alive on earth, and what happened after they were resurrected.
6) You are guessing and adding to the Bible to claim to know the exact year. There are too many variables to be dogmatic about any date.
7) The Bible does NOT say that it is JEWS who are gathered from the four winds. The NT uses the term "ELECT" to refer to CHRISTIANS and believing Jews. The bodies of the dead in Christ are gathered from the earth and reunited with the souls, and then the living elect are gathered in the AER (That is the term Paul used. It is the Greek word translated as "AIR." But it means the air as in the lower atmosphere, visible sky. IF Paul had meant to imply that we are gathered to the Highest Heaven he would have used the word "Ouranos."
I was so looking forward to sharing this with my pre-trib friend, but then was disappointed at the unclear quality of sound when Joel was teaching.
Josh and Michael’s voices boomed out loud and clear, but then Joel’s responses were choppy and much softer. It’s a pity. 😢
You can always study Joel's argument to discuss the pre-trib with them.
I had the transcript running while listening
Yeah, but "debunking pretrib???" I think I'm more convinced of a pretrib rapture after watching this video
It’s ridiculous to say that the apostia that must come first is the rapture. That would be like saying that Paul said two things must come first for the rapture to happen, to wit, the rapture and the revealing of antichrist. In other words; the rapture won’t happen before the rapture happens.🤪🤪
@@Josrofer How do you get that?
Verse 2:6 and now you know WHAT withholds that the man of sin is revealed in his time.
How do they know now? He just told them twice, in verse 1 and in verse 3.
In verse 1 he is begging them not to be worried about the day of the Lord, and he is using "our gathering together unto Him" as the reason not to be worried.
Then in verse 3, the falling away or Departure happens and then that man of sin is revealed before Christ returns. Christ doesn't return until after the man of sin is revealed, and the man of sin isn't revealed until after the falling away Departure.
Prepare for the worst, and hope for the best.
Just how do we "PREPARE"? What does that look like? What scripture tells us to prepare where maybe some "steps" are laid out?
@@Kman. Bunker, dehydrated corn, bottled water, flashlight, fresh batteries, the weather channel...and toilet paper!
The best way to prepare is to prepare your heart in the Lord because you can prepare the wrong way, without Jesus, then it you're not really prepared at all. Jesus will take care of us in the End Times.
So if Christians are supposed to be raptured BEFORE the tribulation, why would St. John’s vision not end there? If we are all in heaven, we don’t need to know what comes next.
There are some who say they are believers who are not followers of Messiah, they will still be on earth, they obviously will have some knowledge and will need to know what comes next. As well, non-believers will need to know what comes next as the things that are happening hopefully will lead them to salvation albeit through the time of Yah's wrath.
It’s also the question of Israel’s salvation during the 7 year tribulation
They won’t be…it’s false doctrine popular since the mid 1800s
Post-trib view understands "The Day of the Lord" to refer exclusively to the “Second Coming” of Christ, which occurs after the 7-year tribulation. On the other hand, Pre-trib view considers "The Day of the Lord" to mean the entire sequence of events of the “7-year tribulation.” I struggle to understand how "The Day of the Lord" can be described as coming like a thief in the night if it is only connected to the Second Coming of Christ. When the tribulation begins and people experience its effects, the Second Coming will not feel sudden or unexpected for the people.
The Post-Trib view interprets the phrase "that the day would overtake you like a thief" (1 Thess 5:4) to imply that believers will not “feel” surprised or caught off guard like encountering a thief. According to this view, both unbelievers and believers will go through and “experience” the same events, but “unbelievers” will “feel” the suddenness and surprise of the Lord’s Coming, whereas “believers,” being aware of Jesus' coming, will not “feel” that sense of surprise as if encountering an unexpected thief.
However, I have serious doubts about whether this is what Paul intended to convey in 1 Thess 5. Paul's intention seems to be more than just a matter of “feelings.” Rather, Paul is suggesting that while unbelievers will indeed “experience” the tribulation as a theft, believers will not actually go through that “same experience” of tribulation as a thief in the night. It’s not a matter of “feelings” but actual “experience.”
This is why I adhere to the Pre-tribulation view, as I believe "The Day of the Lord" is synonymous with the entire 7-year tribulation period. The "onset" of the tribulation, its beginning, may come unexpectedly like a thief in the night (1 Thess 5:2), but for believers, "that day" (referring to the 7-year tribulation) will not overtake us as a thief in the night (1 Thess 5:4) because we will be raptured (1 Thess 4:17) just before the tribulation "that day" begins. Just a simple and natural reading of 1 Thess 4-5 will lead any readers to this conclusion. +
adhere to your false doctrine.
EVERY ONE will be present on Resurrection day
BOTH the living and the dead
LIVE to see the dead come out of their graves
OR
Die and be raised with them
and the rapture is after the resurrection.
@@GodsOwnGodZone Learn how to write proper biblical arguments not your opinions 🤦♂
@@fifajjang77
your problem is not with my arguement
your problem is you know I am right according to scripture and you cannot prove the truth is wrong.
@@fifajjang77
It cant be my opinion if it is written
1)
Is my opinon Jesus said he would He would raise them up at the last day?
John 6
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
2)
Is it my opinion Jesus descends from heaven to raise them up FIRST, at the last day?
1 Thes. 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
3)
Is it my opinion the alive are caught up after the resurrection at the last day?
1 Thes. 4
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4)
Is it my opinion you will be DEAD or ALIVE when Jesus descends to raised the dead at the last day?
the last day is not 7 years before the last day
I suppose that is opinion!
pre tribulation rapture doesnt exist.
post resurrection rapture is the truth
POST RESURRECTION RAPTURE IS TRUTH
see Revelation 10: 5-7 to understand the timing of the last day resurrection.
and the rapture is after that.
study study study and stop your nonsense
Jesus didnt ascend before his resurrection
neither will His body.
@@GodsOwnGodZone 🤦♂
Joel Richardson needs to debate a scholar who holds on to the Pr-tribulation belief. This is not a fair way to debunk pre-trib teaching.
I believe revelation 3:10 where he’s promised to keep us away from the tribulation that will come on the whole world. I truly believe this is regarding the rapture.
You are not taking the Bible literally.
You should rely upon the numerous verses that actually talk about the return of Christ and the rapture specifically. This one clearly does not. But 2 Thess 1:5-8 is a passage that debunks the pre trib rapture. Read it. Paul tells the church they will not receive relief from their persecutions until judgment day. Why did He not say "pre trib rapture day"? This matters. There will be no pre trib rapture. Also, believe what Jesus said to us in Matthew 24 about the rapture timing. It happens after the trib but before the bowls of wrath. It really isnt that complex.
I would suggest having Andy Woods on your show to talk about Pre-Trib rapture.
Andy won’t do it. He has some good reasons, too.
He's one of he best to explain pretribute though you have David Jeremiah too to help those in doubt of pretrib
Three simple ones who can't find truth
Raptures in your own Bible that you refuse to study
1-enoch was raptured
2 - Moses body
3- Elijah was raptured
4- Jesus was raptured
5- the old testament saints from Abrams bosom were raptured and passing though Jerusalem were seen of many
6- the day of Jesus christ is going to happen 5993 from creation or 1993 years after christ was raptured before the 7 years of wrath
7- The day of the Lord when the jews are raptured by the angels from the four winds to Jerusalem to meet jesus as he rids in to slay the armies of the antichrist at the end of daniels 70th week
The mystery rapture is only revealed to the apostle Paul found only n the letters to the church's
Stop looking in Matthew for a day of Jesus christ as it wasn't revealed yet
Matthew pnly mentions the day of the Lord a rapture or gathering of the jews by the angel's after the 70th week I hope people change
@@ChrisPerkins-i7hso where is the church in all of this?
We are not appointed to God's wrath..that is the 7 tribulation...looking up for my Savior
Not appointed to eternal wrath
Three simple ones who can't find truth
Raptures in your own Bible that you refuse to study
1-enoch was raptured
2 - Moses body
3- Elijah was raptured
4- Jesus was raptured
5- the old testament saints from Abrams bosom were raptured and passing though Jerusalem were seen of many
6- the day of Jesus christ is going to happen 5993 from creation or 1993 years after christ was raptured before the 7 years of wrath
7- The day of the Lord when the jews are raptured by the angels from the four winds to Jerusalem to meet jesus as he rids in to slay the armies of the antichrist at the end of daniels 70th week
The mystery rapture is only revealed to the apostle Paul found only n the letters to the church's
Stop looking in Matthew for a day of Jesus christ as it wasn't revealed yet
Matthew pnly mentions the day of the Lord a rapture or gathering of the jews by the angel's after the 70th week
Tribulation and Wrath are two very different things.
Thats the problem with pre trib belief. They tie them together. They are very different.
Trib is satans wrath on the saints..wrath is God's wrath on the wicked. God's wrath falls on the last day, after tribulation..The Day of the Lord. Period
Noah was not appointed to wrath either and God protected him.
Me to, I'm looking for the Blessed Hope not the Anti Christ leader.
The Dead Are Raised First [1 Thess 4:15] We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have died. Therefore, the Rapture cannot take place before the dead are raised. The Bible tells us WHEN the dead are raised [1 Cor 15:52] "at the Last Trumpet". Also, we are told this takes place on "the Last Day" [John 11:24, 6:39, 6:40, 6:44, 6:54,12:48]. Finally, we are also told this takes place after the tribulation [Matt 24:29, Mark 13:34]. Also, "saints" in Jude 1:14 and 1 Thess 3:13, is a reference to "angels" (holy ones - Strong's G40 Hagios) - not human saints, but "angels" are also called "saints" or "holy ones" (Deut 33:2, Ps 68:17). The Rapture cannot take place before the dead are raised - the dead shall rise first. Therefore you cannot have a Rapture (of the living believers) until the dead are raised first, placing the timing of the Rapture after the dead are raised, at the Last Trumpet, on the Last Day, after the tribulation...just like the Bible explains it. We must not contradict these Scriptures as so many have done. We need to embrace and understand these plain statements from the Bible. Please share this with everyone. With thanks to Jesus our Savior. Amen.
Amen
Here are some aspects you might want to consider. Post-trib view understands "The Day of the Lord" to refer exclusively to the “Second Coming” of Christ, which occurs after the 7-year tribulation. On the other hand, Pre-trib view considers "The Day of the Lord" to mean the entire sequence of events of the “7-year tribulation.” I struggle to understand how "The Day of the Lord" is solely connected to the Second Coming of Christ.
Firstly, if you study the concept of "The Day of the Lord" in the Old Testament, you will discover that it is not a 24-hour period or an instantaneous event connected only to the Second Coming of Christ. Instead, the prophets repeatedly describe "The Day of the Lord" as a sequence of events leading up to the coming of the LORD. It is a complex series of judgments and not a singular event.
Secondly, Jesus Himself confirms this understanding in Matthew 24. He divides the first half of the tribulation (Matthew 24:4-14) from the second half (Matthew 24:15-28), with verse 15 serving as a dividing point. Jesus clearly mentions the Seventieth Week of Daniel (Dan 9:27) here in 24:15, which refers to the future Antichrist setting up an abomination of desolation in the temple.
The events described in Matthew 24:4-14 closely resemble the beginning of the Seal judgments in Revelation 6. Jesus uses exactly same Greek words, such as "famines and earthquakes" (24:7), "will kill you" (24:9), which correspond to the Seal judgments' description of "kill by sword, famine, and plague" (Rev 6:8), and "There was a great earthquake" (Rev 6:12).
Furthermore, Jesus describes the second half of the tribulation with the presence of false messiahs and false prophets performing “signs” and wonders to “deceive” people (Matt 24:24). These same Greek words for "signs" and "deceive" appear in Revelation 13 when it describes the actions of the Beast in the second half of the tribulation. The 7-year tribulation begins with the Seal judgments and concludes with the Bowl judgments. Thus, we see Jesus mentioning this entire 7-year tribulation as a sequence of events in Matthew 24.
The fact that Matthew 24:4-28 encompasses the entirety of "the Day (ἡμέρα) of the Lord" is confirmed by Jesus' statement, "But immediately after the tribulation of those days (ἡμέρα)" (24:29), people will witness the coming of the Son of Man: the Second Coming (24:30). The Second Coming occurs "after" the "Day (ἡμέρα) of the Lord," specifically, "immediately after the tribulation of those days (ἡμέρα)." Therefore, it is unreasonable to equate "the Day of the Lord" solely with the singular event of the "Second Coming of Christ."
Jesus Himself even emphasized that when individuals observe "all these things," they should recognize that He is near (24:33). "All these things" refers to the entire sequence of events during the tribulation (the Day of the Lord, 24:4-28). The Second Coming is preceded by specific and clear "signs," similar to how people can anticipate the approach of summer (24:32). However, Jesus changes the topic (peri de) starting in 24:36, stating, "But of that day (ἡμέρα) and hour no one knows." The Day of the Lord, the tribulation, is a "signless" event without visible signs.
The most compelling evidence supporting the understanding that the Day of the Lord encompasses the entirety of the 7-year tribulation comes from Paul's words in 1 Thessalonians 5. Paul describes the day (ἡμέρα) of the Lord as coming upon unbelievers suddenly, "like labor pains (ὠδίν) on a pregnant woman," and they will not escape (5:3). It is noteworthy that the "onset" of the Day of the Lord is the same as what Jesus referred to as the "onset" of the tribulation in Matthew 24: "All these are the beginning of birth pains (ὠδίν)" (24:8). Both Paul and Jesus affirm that the Day of the Lord is not a singular event but a sequence of events (7 years) leading up to the Second Coming. Both Jesus and Paul affirm that the "onset" of the Day of the Lord signifies only the beginning of birth pains.
Unbelievers cannot "escape" the Day when it begins and the sequence of events unfolds. Paul further states, "But you (second person: believers), brethren, are not in darkness, that the day (ἡμέρα) would overtake you like a thief" (5:4). The onset of "that day" cannot seize believers violently because Paul explained in the preceding context that they will be "caught up" to be with the Lord (4:17).
Furthermore, if we equate the Day with Christ's Second Coming, it becomes difficult to comprehend how unbelievers can say "peace and safety" (5:3) and live their lives normally just before the Second Coming of Christ, given that they are currently experiencing the terrible wrath of God during that time.
Lastly, look at 2 Thessalonians 2. Some of the Thessalonians were disturbed by a report claiming that the day of the Lord had arrived (2:2). If, in this context, the day of the Lord is synonymous with the second coming, then it would be impossible for them to be shaken in mind. Instead of being troubled, they should have rejoiced that the Day of the Lord had come! If the Christians had mistakenly believed, based on Paul's previous teaching, that they were currently going through the tribulation and held a post-tribulationist view, they would have likely been rejoicing rather than troubled by the idea of sudden deliverance.
When we consider the overall context of 1-2 Thessalonians, the only logical explanation is as follows: The Thessalonians had been previously taught that the rapture would occur before the day of the Lord. The lie they heard just before Paul wrote his second letter to them suggested that the day of the Lord had come, and being informed of the day of the Lord's arrival necessarily implied that they had missed the rapture. This would undoubtedly be disconcerting, and it would have shaken the Thessalonians from their composure.
The pre-tribulational rapture is not lacking in biblical support and evidence. In fact, there is ample evidence to support it. I humbly believe that viewing 1 Thessalonians 4-5 in its entirety, the pre-tribulation position appears to be the most natural reading.
Excellent point 🎉
YOUR WORDS --- > I humbly believe that viewing 1 Thessalonians 4-5 in its entirety, the pre-tribulation position appears to be the most natural reading.
Well your are wrong.
verse 15 clearly says we which are alive and remian unto the coming of the LORD
NOT
we which are alive and remain unto 7 years before the coming of the LORD
verse 16 clearly says the dead in Christ rise FIRST
when do the dead rise
John 6
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
the dead rise AT THE LAST DAY
NOT
7 years before the last day
verse 17 says THEN we which are alive and remain shall be caught up in the clouds
caught up in the clouds AFTER THE RESURRECTION AT THE LAST DAY
is clearly NOT pre tribulation
YOU PROVIDE A
Horrible interpretation of GOD's holy Word
The last trumpet. The last day. The day of the Lord. Endure to the end. Scripture does not say, before Antichrist is revealed.
Hallelujah for post-trib resurrection being explained! Thank God for clear exposition of “the last trump.” Matthew 24 is one of the most shoe-horned and distorted text by pre-trib rapture teaching than almost any other. I was so disappointed to to learn that Rick Renner is pre-trib rapture. Someone sent a link to a great TH-cam sermon by Renner which made me think he was going to be a great resource for meanings of New Testament words and history. The fact he can read the text and not exegete it correctly with regard to eschatology astounds me. Same with all other Greek Bible scholars who are cessationists and/or pre-trib.
As a teen, I was taught pre-Trib teaching in my parents’ Bible Church with a pastor who graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary. When I came to Jesus and received salvation 7 years later, one of the first things the Spirit showed me in Scripture was there is no such teaching as a secret rapture of the Church. A few months before my salvation experience, He sovereignly taught me non-cessation truths. If I, a brand new Christian and young adult in college, could receive such understanding by simply reading the Bible for what it says, then why are so many others being duped into believing a teaching which truly makes us look absurd to nonbelievers? By the way, all of this happened to me during the fiery days of Hal Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth,” which took the Christian world by storm. So much of such eschatology over the years has wrongly predicted various aspects of the Book of Revelation, and yet, memories are short. The erroneous interpretations take another turn around the planet when certain situations (usually political) arise both here and abroad (mostly abroad, especially with any upheaval in modern day Israel). This, despite the fact that the Old Covenant was abolished, the Kingdom of God torn from Israel and given to another (those who embrace Jesus as Messiah, King and Savior, both Jew and Gentile), a “parenthetical” Church Age is widely taught & believed. This doctrine was NEVER a part of the early church fathers’ writings or any other period of time until the 1800’s when it popped up in England. The “new revelation” was born and mostly took root in the US. Sadly, the US have spread it worldwide.
Well, enough said for now… thank you Remnant Radio guys and Joel Richardson.
I always turn to the scripture of separation of the wheat and chaff. That is done with a tribulum. It is done at the harvest. In the parable of the tares the worker asks the owner if they should remove the tares and the master says we must wait till the harvest so we don't remove some wheat unintentionally. When wheat is ready it bows down and the tares stay upright it is easy to separate them. We go through the tribulation. Good podcast guys. Thanks.
YES! I believe the harvest time is when everyone must decide whether or not to accept the Mark of the Beast. While the executions of those refusing the mark are witnessed, some will reluctantly accept the mark to avoid execution. Only those who are willing to die, endure to the end, will live. They are the ones who will be raptured. God cuts the days short, or all will die. Rapture is how God cuts the days short.
The more I listen to you the more I am certain of a pre tribulation rapture. The good thing is your perspective does not have to divide us
Hold these scriptures side by side and look at the chronological comparison, it can’t be coincidence. ONLY SCRIPTURE
- [x] Revelation 6:12-15
- [x] Matt 24:29-31
- [x] Mark 13:24-27
- [x] Luke 21:25-28
- [x] Joel 2:10&11 and 30-31
- [x] Acts 2:19-21
What is the exact comparison in chronological order?
A) The sun will be darkened
b) The moon will not give its light
C) The stars will fall from Heaven
D) The powers of the Heavens will be shaken
E) On the earth.
F) The sea and the waves.
G) In Joel there is a Great and TERRIBLE day AND a Great and AWESOME day of the Lord. It will be awesome for the ones who are raptured but it will be terrible for the ones who stays behind.
H) Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in Heaven.
H) God Have NOT appointed us to WRATH but to OBTAIN SALVATION.
I) In Joel 2 God even talked about the Earthquake mentioned in the sixth seal BEFORE The Day of The Lord.
J)The Day of God’s WRATH is announced in Rev 6:16&17 “Fall on us and hide us from the face of HIM who sits on the throne and FROM THE WRATH of the LAMB! For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH HAS COME, and who is able to stand?”
K) 1 Thess 5:9-11 For God HATH NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to OBTAIN SALVATION by our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
L) Psalms 119:160, John 17:17, Psalm 138:2. The SUM of Thy Word is truth and God’s WORD is magnified above His Name.
Our opinions doesn’t matter.
According to these scriptures, We will still be here UNTILL the 6th seal and we arrive in Heaven in Revelation 7:9-17.
ONCE YOU SEE IT YOU CAN’T UNSEE IT.
Paul debunks the pretrib rapture in 2 Thess 1:6-8 when he tells the church they will not find relief from their persecutions until judgment day. He would have mentioned the pre-trib rapture if it was real. But he didnt. It obviously is not, according to Paul. No bible teacher ever suggested a 2-staged return of Christ until Morgan Edwards in 1742. Nobody. They all knew better.
@@rustys5111
I partly agree but what about what Jesus said:
- [x] Matt 24:29-31
- [x] Mark 13:24-27
- [x] Luke 21:25-28
Exactly even in chronological order
- [x] Revelation 6:12-15
@@JasminHadda-j1p I checked all those passages. Three of them clearly state that the gathering of the elect (rapture) occurs after the time of distress and at the return of Christ to bring judgment. Rev 6 speaks of His wrath, but doesnt mention the gathering of the saints. See Rev 14 for the harvest of the earth, which appears to be the gathering of the elect and the judgment of the earth occurring about the same time. This happens after the 7 trumpets and prior to the bowls of wrath. Paul agrees with this when he tells the Thessalonian church that the will experience trials and persecution all the way to judgment day, which means there is no pre trib gathering. See 2 Thess 1:5-8.
I grew up in a dispensationalist believing household and went to a dispensationalist Bible college. I am sixty six now. I also grew up hearing II Timothy 3:12, "Indeed all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted." From a young age, I was familiar with the persecution in China and the Soviet Union. I browsed Foxes Book of Martyrs as a child as well as Tortured for His Faith. (It was hard to read them all the way through but they made an impression.) I also read about missionary martyrs in the 20th century. Today I support Open Doors and I feel agony for those Christian young women and men captured and enslaved by Islamic terrorists.
Is the American church prepared for persecution? That is an important question and one that is separate from the question of the Tribulation. To me, having grown up in dispensationalism, I think it's a straw man to argue that dispensationalists just want to avoid persecution. Persecution is more the norm in history than not. I knew that as a child and teenager. I heard about putting God first and being willing to sacrifice for God's kingdom. I saw my parents sacrifice. There was nothing "health and wealth" about dispensationalism as I have known it. The big issue as I have understood it is whether the church experiences God's wrath, not man's wrath. So, all this is to say, reason from Scripture and don't conflate persecution and the Great Tribulation. Stay away from judging motives of those with a different position..
Hey I got a question should you're not putting up the pagan symbols 3 witches incident represents the trinity when we going to check the crosses down and put the pentagram up pentagram up and say that represents the crucifixion Huntington so many heritage church leaders are bringing so much paganism into the church of just wondering God bless if it's still okay to say that
I have heard Joel live at a couple Perry Stone conferences and I believe he is a godly man.
I have his book about extensive research in Saudi Arabia. His conversation today has not moved me at all from my firm position in a pre trib rapture and a believer in dispensation.
That's interesting since I thought Stone was pre-trib.
@PETER JOHN BRANDAL Perry Stone is most definitely pre trib. Along with Jimmy Evans who will be at Perry Stones church the last weekend in April for a prophesy summit in Cleveland Tennessee
Please look at these scriptures. I am not pre trib for a heads up. Zechariah 14:16-19 is a passage that shows there are people left on earth who are not "Christian" when the Lord returns. Many today do not realize Christ will keep the sabbaths as shown in the passage. Jesus is said to rule with a rod of iron and the passage shows that too. Isaiah 56:1-9 is a prophecy that reads into the return of Christ if you read verse 8 as the gathering of Israel back to the land of Israel It includes gentiles being gathered as well.. Verse 9 can be seen as the call of the Lord to the beasts to the feast of conquered army of the devil (Gog/Magog) at the battle of Jerusalem at the Lords return. The rest of the chapter can be read as a rebuke to the heart of the general church just prior to the Lords return. In Isaiah 65:17-25 the earth is restructured (Rev 16:18-20 a great earthquake in Jerusalem and the holy city divided into thirds and all the mountains brought low into the valleys and cities of the nations destroyed and isles removed) and in Isaiah 65:20 it is prophesied no child will die in it's youth (meaning children will be born) or old men who will not fulfill their days, good or bad they will live to one hundred> so this is not heaven but Christs earthly reign.). From this passage you can see that the earth will be heavily populated for the devil will deceive many (Revelation 20:7-10) when he is released from the bottomless pit. In Isaiah 66:20 The Lord gathers Israel and the world governments and their armies for purposes of sacrifice and repeats statements of the new world he will create and testifies that his sabbaths will be upheld. All of these things will be done in the thousand year reign. People will live and die during the thousand year reign but those of the first resurrection will live and not die and reign with Christ . After the thousand year reign according to Rev. 20:5 there will be a judgment referring to Rev 20:11-15 where all those not of the first resurrection will be judged. Some will be cast into the lake of fire and others will enter heaven as long as their names are not blotted out of the book of life. Most churches just do not portray the end-times as printed in the Bible. There will be no rapture. The Lord comes one time and resurrects those that are his (1 Cor 15:22) the dead in Christ (1Thess 4:16-17) the rest stay in their grave (Rev.20:5) until the millennium is finished. Judgment happens and then Rev 21:1 the second heaven and earth come because the first earth is finally done away with. Those who think they are going to get raptured and go directly into the presence of God are being deceived and the Seminaries and their pastors are leading the deception whether they know it or not. When the tribulation starts many will be angry and attack those who lied to them and will take their anger out on those who have not fallen for the trap and who have refused to take the mark of the beast scenario. Don't be deceived.
The conversation sounded more like it should have been titled, "The Traditional Post-Tribulational Arguments against PreTribulationism" rather than, "Debunking The Pre-Trib Rapture." Thanks anyways.
Wish Joel's audio was better
The day of Jesus christ is only ever mentioned by the apostle paul
Raptures in your own Bible that you refuse to study
1-enoch was raptured
2 - Moses body
3- Elijah was raptured
4- Jesus was raptured
5- the old testament saints from Abrams bosom were raptured and passing though Jerusalem were seen of many
6- the day of Jesus christ is going to happen 5993 from creation or 1993 years after christ was raptured before the 7 years of wrath
7- The day of the Lord when the jews are raptured by the angels from the four winds to Jerusalem to meet jesus as he rids in to slay the armies of the antichrist at the end of daniels 70th week
The mystery rapture is only revealed to the apostle Paul found only n the letters to the church's
Stop looking in Matthew for a day of Jesus christ as it wasn't revealed yet
Matthew only mentions the day of the Lord a rapture or gathering of the jews by the angel's after the 70th week
Reading Malachi 3:17-18 (and into chapter 4) convinced me that God does distinguish between those who are His. I’m still pre-trib based on this scripture.
Disappointed in Joel here. He used to be more sympathetic to pre trib, now he is so far on the other side it’s laughable! Pre trib rapture doesn’t say there won’t be persecution. We believe that the church will escape the wrath of the lord! Very different from persecution which the church has endured since Christ. Also if mathew 24 isn’t referring to just isreal but also the church then explain in verse math 24:15-16 it mentions Judea and the city of Jerusalem! Why doesn’t it mention the whole world if Christian’s are still on the earth? Jesus is clearly focusing on isreal. It’s also another reason why it mentions the sabbath in verse 20. Why would gentiles or the church give a crap about the sabbath? (except for the messianic Christian’s lol) Also if the church is on earth during the time of the second coming why doesn’t the book of revelation ever mention America? The worlds superpower? Makes no sense. Pre trib fits perfectly with the end times scenario. Although not explicitly stated it’s practically implied by any competent person who has read the Bible through and has a good understanding of the church and isreal. Which are two different distinct entities. Church can have gentiles and Jews but once the church is removed it goes back to gentile and isreal.
The Bride of CHRIST is not appointed to wrath since JESUS took the wrath of the FATHER in our place.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Revelation 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
But, we are still to be spiritually prepared.
Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
We don't know the day or the hour of the Rapture/Harpadzo. It is a mystery and it is eminent.
The two witnesses will prophesy for the first 3.5 years of the tribulation and then will be killed by the antichrist right after the abomination of desolation.
Revelation 11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Then. the remnant of Israel will flee into the wilderness for the last 3.5 years of the tribulation.
Daniel 12:11-12
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Revelation 12:6
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
We do know the timing of the second coming of the LORD JESUS CHRIST., It is at the end of the 7 year tribulation.
We also know that the saints will be with JESUS at HIS second coming.
Revelation 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Could you do a "debunking" post-trib or a-mil/post-mil show? Pre-trib seems to be the only eschatological view being "debunked" on the channel (see the 3-4 "debunked" videos with Richardson, Keener, and Kruschner). It would be nice to hear from a pre-tribber who is not simply putting on positive argument for their position (e.g., Evans), but actually showing why they believe (biblically) that a post-trib or a-mil/post-mil position may be wrong as well. Thoughts?
I think they have several videos regarding different views of the end times
Use the TH-cam search bar. There are plenty of pre-trib/pre-mill teachers denouncing all other positions. It's sometimes difficult to find a video about post-mill or amill that's positive.
@sojourner I know, I just trust Remnant in trying to find credentialed speakers on certain topics rather than being cast off into the ether of youtube to just any guy/girl with a youtube channel. I also appreciate the level of discernment they bring to the conversation. If you have recommendations elsewhere though, let me know!
@Nathan Pogue they are a terrific source for sure. As an Amill myself I can't recommend any good debunks of it 😉
If someone believes in anything OTHER than Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then he needs to do a video on "How Jesus is soooooooo evil towards HIS PEOPLE". Then do another one comparing Jesus with Allah.
I worry many pre tribs will be discouraged when they do not escape the tribulation period. I grew up in a church that taught pre trib, but changed my mind after much study as an adult.
You don't care about others. Do you have a bunker with seven years of food, water, and electricity?
Have you explained how to keep safe from the AntiChrist by building a bunker and stocking it?
Why would Christ want his 👰 bride (Christian believers) to suffer by enduring the 7yr Tribulation? mm🤔💭
@@Peter007-e5w
He doesn't want it, but He did say believers would endure tribulation. Christians have to remember this world has 1000 years after the whole Antichrist scenario, before the recreation of Heaven and Earth. People will still be living here. If Jesus takes out the people with the Mark of the Beast when He returns then who is left to populate the earth? Somebody has to be still on the earth during all of this time.
@@chrisstiff2914 Give me the Bible verse or verses where it says believers would endure tribulation or the 7yr Tribulation?🤔
(42:00) I've heard the boomerang, yo-yo thing before as well. I always ask if they have loved ones visiting from out of town, do they meet them at the airport? The convo usually moves on to a different point from there.
That's a salvation offer, salvation is the same for both.
95% of the church is already in heaven and without the purifying of the great tribulation.
God is no respecter of persons and he is not partial. Luke 21:36 watch therefore and pray always that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass.
Hebrews 9:28 only those looking for him will see him the second time.
Far different from Rev 1:7 where every eye will see him
God bless
How is one worthy? Because he is watching and waiting for escape. You can't be watching if you're expecting to go through the tribulation first.
I am definatly a post trib/pre wrath guy myself. But i do, and i dont, look forward to the the rapture. I cant wait to meet and be with him selfishly, but that also means all other people are doomed. Its over, not 1 more person will be saved and know the true love that i know. I have close l, dear friends, and i talk from time to time, but they dont believe. It kills me to think they will die without knowing Jesus. It is bitter sweet. Whats the shortest verse in the bible? And why did he do it. It hurts to know sometimes
I hope the pre-tribulation rapture is right, but I’m not betting my life on it. My faith will remain intact either way because no matter what we are to expect tribulation while on earth. One thing I know for sure is I’ll find out for sure one day, either before heaven or after. The preaching that I think is the most dangerous is the prosperity gospel, which mostly teaches not to expect tribulation if you become a believer. That doctrine truly does lead to disillusionment.
@janeth3139 You wrote, "I hope the pre-tribulation rapture is right, but I’m not betting my life on it."
I hope that was not your approach to believing in Jesus?!?
Ask yourself:
- What is it that separated me from God before I received the gift of Salvation?
- What is the outcome for those who refuse the gift?
John 3:18 says, “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." and v. 36 - "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
- What is God's wrath and how does that work in the tribulation?
- Does Daniel 9:24-27 have anything to do with the tribulation, if so why, if not, why not?
- Is the Church the Bride of Christ? If so, is that who we see in Revelation 19:1-9ff?
- Did Christ's death and resurrection remove our sins, and if so, for what reason then must God administer wrath on the Church?
The Tribulation is the Time of Jacob's Trouble. Gabriel tells Daniel the 70 weeks prophecy is for the Jews and Jerusalem. The church was hidden from the OT prophets.
Is the New Covenant found in Daniel chapter 9?
Are we supposed to believe the angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant. Or, is the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28? The 1599 Geneva Bible is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Darby showed up on our shores about the time of the Civil War. What was the earlier understanding of Daniel 9:27 found below in the notes of the 1599 Geneva Bible?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.
Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles. (See Rom. 1:16, Matt. 10:5-7, Acts 10:36-38)
(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection. (See Heb. 9:15)
(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.
(See Matt. 23:38, Matt. 24:1-2, Luke 19:41-44)
------------------------------------------------
During recent years many New Covenant scholars have examined Daniel chapter 9 from a New Covenant perspective. Did Christ fulfill the summary found in Daniel 9:24? Is it about the New Covenant fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary?
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (These two verses are quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
The death of the Messiah is found in Daniel 9:26, and there are only two possible singular antecedents for the word “he” in the next verse. Those antecedents are either Christ or Titus, who was the prince of the people that destroyed the temple during 70 AD.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Is the “he” in Daniel 9:27 the “Messiah”, or “the prince” of the people that destroyed the city and the sanctuary in verse 26? If we used “the people of the prince” it would not be a singular “he”.
Does the author of the Book of Hebrews connect the New Covenant with the Messiah’s death found in Daniel 9:26, in the verse below?
Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. (NKJV)
Verse 26 also says the Messiah would be cut off “after” the 69 weeks. If I agree to paint your house “after” 69 weeks, it will not be painted until the 70th week, or after. Is there a “gap” of almost 2,000 years between the 69th week and the 70th week, or was it fulfilled during the first century when the Gospel was preached “first” to the Jews?
We know there is a time period when the Gospel was taken “first” to the Jews, as the Apostle Paul said in the verse below.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Can we find a time period of about seven years when the Gospel was taken “first” to Daniel’s people during the first century? If we can, we have good evidence that the 70th week of Daniel has already been fulfilled.
Did Christ command His disciples to take the Gospel only to Israel in the passage below?
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
Is the time period when the Gospel was preached “first” (Rom. 1:16) to the Jews in the passage above, confirmed in the passage below?
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
In the passage above Luke confirms the fact that the Gospel of Christ was preached throughout the land of Israel after the baptism which John preached. Here again, we have a text which reveals a time period when the Gospel was taken “first” to the Jews, as Paul said in Romans 1:16.
Bible scholars have looked at the number of Passover celebrations in the Gospels and have estimated Christ’s earthly ministry to have lasted about three and one half years. Was the Gospel taken “first” (Rom. 1:16) to the Jews for a period of about three and one half years during the period of time revealed in the Gospels?
In Galatians 1:14-18 Paul reveals he did not go up to see Peter until about 3 years after his conversion. During that time the Gospel continued to be taken almost exclusively to Daniel's people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.
Read the recent book "The 70th Week of Daniel 9 DECODED" by David Wilcoxson for confirmation of the above.
@@SpotterVideo Oh my goodness. When the Disciples ask Jesus about His second coming He tells them to go read the prophet Daniel. The “covenant” spoken of in Daniel 9:27 is a 7 year covenant. The new covenant that Jeremiah prophesied and which began at Calvary is an “everlasting” covenant.
Different covenants (agreements) bro. The covenant the man of sin enters into with the Jewish people is a 7 year one which he breaks midway through,
@@SpotterVideo the saints are not part of the New Covenant. They had to die refusing the Mark in order to get their names written in the Book of Life.
Rightly dividing Gods word is crucial. Every judgment of God never let a person who is saved be in the judgment
Rightly dividing the word should be translated handling the word since the word has nothing to do with chopping the text into pieces.
Also, Daniel was saved, yet he still went into captivity during the Exile
@JosephPerspective major difference is those are punishments coming from men to the saints. The tribulation is punishments from God to the wicked.
@@Manofwar7 so was the exile
@JosephPerspective it presents no problem for me. After the church is removed there will be people getting saved (saints). Rev 1-3 speaks to the church. Rev 4-5 church is in heaven. Rev 6-19 tribulation. I "personally" don't believe the body of Christ (church) is mentioned during that time. The tribulation is called the "wrath" of God. Thes 5:9 says he has not appointed us to wrath.
However, brother let us serve God with reverence ans godly fear...... However it all shakes out the Lord will take care of his own. Blessings.
@@Manofwar7 No. That is wrath.
Pretrib is the truth, Jesus said pray that you may be counted worthy to ESCAPE ALL the big troubles coming.
Its Post-trib according to the Bible! 1.Thess 4:16 says, the resurrection of the NT Saints comes first, that is the First Resurrection at His parousia=advent,2.coming, not a secret coming. There are only 3 resurrections with the change of the body to immortality (1.Cor 15:23+24). ALL NT Saints are changed (1.Cor 15:51+52), including the Saints out of the Tribulation, 1000 years before the end of the Millennium.
It's called our blessed hope! Why would we be hopeful to go through the tribulation, and how can we comfort each other with the words of you will have to endure through the tribulation???
True and why would we be told to pray we can escape the wrath? If were to go through it he would have said pray we will endure it.
You are called to endure to the end. Wouldn't it had been glorious to stand side by side with Daniel in the Lion's den? God protected him, and He can protect you too. God protected the Israelites from the plagues. He can protect you too. No where does Scripture tell us to endure to avoid the Mark of the Beast. You need to prepare yourself spiritually for passing through much of tribulation.
John 15
Read “The Blessed Hope” book.
@@izmir2004 You do not know in Greek, what the wrath is and when it comes, not in the Tribulation, but when the Lord comes as a thief (Rev !6:15).
We must remember prophecy is speculation until it happens, we can speculate how it will happen but will not fully know until it does, my faith is not in when I think the rapture will happen, it is only in Christ, either way we just have to know that the Lord will take care of his own. We can’t be dogmatic with pre,mid or post trib rapture, to be so is wrong, just a thought from a viewer
Read Deuteronomy chapters 28-30. Moses "prophesied" the entire history of the Jewish people,
all the way to their return to The Land in the 20th century. "He will do nothing unless He tells his prophets first." Amos 3.7
I'm pre trib but I don't rule out multiple raptures. If you study the harvest cycle in Leviticus it takes place in multiple stages, with Jesus resurrection being the first fruits we see in 1 Corinthians 15
GOD IS GONNA BLOW THIS WORLD'S MIND.
As a fellow Charismatic that believes in a pre-trb rapture, I admonish y'all to please stop trying to imply that believers who hold to the understanding of a pre-trib rapture be perceived as "escapists" or "nutty" in some way. We read 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 along with other verses, and we believe these verses point to a Pre-Trib rapture. Sure, you interviewed Jimmy Evans, but did y'all bother to look up or research the verses that he gave for his position? Y'all are clearly not being very objective and I sense there's some pride there.
Please keep on putting out content that engaging, responsible and more thoughtful for those of whom y'all disagree. Have y'all heard of Jack Hibbs, Jan Markell or Amir Tsarfati? All are respectable sources who hold to the Pre-Trib position. This is not a salvation issue, so please stop making it one.
Love Joel Richardson.
Another good man to listen to about the pre-wrath topic is David Rosenthal with Zion’s Hope.
Thanks. I’m still forming my eschatology. I found the interview lacking. Several declarations about what pre-tribbers believe were false representations. The pre-trib view is not newer (and that deserves debunking.)
Joel referenced Lee Brainard in building his case on word meaning, yet Lee Brainard is a very firm pre-tribber.
I think a better discussion would’ve been for you simply to explain what you believe. Rather, you devoted so much time on trying to say what a pre-tribber thinks. (And as I mentioned, not entirely accurately.)
I left the interview with no reason to lean towards post trib. But I did sense much disgust for folks who firmly hold to the pre-trib view. I found this disappointing.
I would also add… The information regarding the 2020 film was rather unveiling and sad. Thank you for exposing the “anthropologist” who’s really not.
I didn't see anything he showed to be false on what pre trib believes. All pre tribbers don't believe the same
Thank you guys for having Joel on. I came to the same conclusions he verbalized in the video before I ever watched his teachings. I could just never find the allusions to pre trib in the Bible that many hold to. Always appreciate you all laying out the intention and guideposts as well with these discussions, it establishes these talks on the basis of discernment and refining which is what I believe we all need in this age.
I like much of what Joel says. However, he claims based on Zechariah 12:10 many modern Orthodox Jews will be saved at Christ's Second Coming. John quoted from that verse at Calvary in John 19:37, and the Spirit was poured out a few weeks later on the Day of Pentecost. Based on the words of Paul below about Christ returning "in flaming fire", nobody will be saved at His Second Coming. All people need to hear the Gospel now, no matter what their DNA test reveals. There is no Plan B of salvation based on race found in the New Testament.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
=======================
New Covenant Whole Gospel:
Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him.
He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by
husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.
Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36)
We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.
Watch the TH-cam videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.
I came to the same conclusion on my own prior to seeing this video. I was raised pre trib and I never questioned it. But the more I read the Bible without preconceived thoughts, the more I moved toward a post trib belief. He practically says everything I currently believe
@Spirit and flesh
You must be a NCT guy, or gal?
@@lukewarmnomore7523 Amen. Watch the video I produced for TH-cam titled "Genesis of Dispensational Theology", if you want to understand the origin of this recent doctrine.
@@SpotterVideo The Oldest Pyramid Ever Found by Archeologist in the Chinese Desert having running water sewer pipes and Electrical Conduit's and thousands of Mummy's found just laying on Slabs of Stone or Alters looking like they were just Buried no Vital Oregon's Removed no Wrappings on them, so The Archeologist ran their DNA test on them and found they are all European DNA and Unknown DNA from Space, a Pre-Flood of Noah Discovery, perhaps they are all the Son's and Daughters of the Son's of God Who came down unto the Daughter's of Man and Married them and had children with them. And No Chinese found for thousands of miles. Like the Day's of Noah.
I'm just learning right now and studying viewpoints and the Bible. I guess my question is why would it be hard to believe in a pre trib rapture especially if Enoch and Elijah were taken up?
The resurrection and the rapture are handcuffed and hogtied together according to 1 Thess. 4:15. The resurrection happens, and then the rapture immediately after that, on the same day... the last day.
There will be a LOT of Saints who will be the dead in Christ who's body will become whole to envelope them in the clouds first. Especially those who were martyred during the persecution during the tribulation.
@@kamikaze4928 There are many "last day" in the word. Do a study on them and see. They are all not talking about the same time.
Every post-tribber have the full right to experience the full impact of the 7seals, 7trumpets, 7vials of wrath and at the end to witness the 2nd coming of Jesus in Rev. 19:14 with the armies which are in heaven, with ten thousand of His saints in Jude1:14. Wouldn't that be a sight to behold. You can either see it from heaven downwards, or from the earth upwards. Let each choose. It still doesn't hide fact that in the past more than once God has dealt with National Israel in a distinctive manner apart from the other nations. The 70th week of Daniel also apply to Daniel's people and city.
I like Joel but like everyone else who has an opinion he has to force the text to say what fits with his view.
The great tribulation is meant for two things to pour wrath on a Christ rejecting 🌎 world
As well saving the remnant of Israel.
Jesus said this when speaking to the Jews.
Mathew 23:39
For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘BLESSED IS THE ONE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE Lord!’?
This means that Jesus is not going to come back until they call his name.
In order for Israel to call on his name they must believe that he is The true Christ.
That verse is important because it shows you that in the end it will only be about saving Israel 🇮🇱 has nothing to the with the church .
If you rightly divide the word of GOD you would stop coming up with things like Islamic anti christ and post trib non biblical view.
Yes we have many anti christ and we need to watch for the smoke and mirrors .
If you stick to GODs word you will under stand why the last trumpet is not the 7 th trumpet
These trumpets are not the same
The last trump has to do with salvation and the 7 trumpet has to do with ushering in Jesus reign in earth 🎉
I’m not dogmatic this is not a salvific issue.
But it just shows that most people are not hearing from GOD 😮
Lord bless you all
Yup exactly the trumpet the ushers in Jesus is the trumpet of God
It is refreshing to hear a Bible teacher be so spot-on regarding this topic! The pre-trib rapture is constantly taught and defended using various theological systems, yet it is NOWHERE clearly stated in Scripture, as Mr. Richardson aptly pointed out. I myself was raised pre-trib and defended it for years. I was called to account when a dear brother and friend asked me where it is plainly stated in God's Word. That led me to really go back and reevaluate what the Bible clearly states about the rapture. I found that the post-trib rapture is CLEARLY stated several times over, and the pre-trib rapture is never clearly stated. Just listen to the way it is often taught by its prominent conveyors and ask yourself, "are they clearly stating what the Book says, or are they giving me reasons why I should believe this doctrine without actually showing it clearly outlined in the pages of Scripture"? What can I say? I didn't write the book 🙏 (thank God).
Thank you, Joel Richardson and Remnant Radio for this excellent purveyance of truth! The Lord bless you for your labor of love!
It was massively advertised in 1980s and 1990s. Pretribbing is state literally nowhere. They have to twist texts to say something that can be harmonize with their idea (idol?). Jesus comes back after the last tribulation and only then will he have his elect gathered. If pre-tribbers can't see that than it's because they are wrong on many other things as well.
So where is term trinity or Bible in scripture?
@@KM-zn3lx It is not there. But the concept is. Can one say the same about 'rapture'. Maybe have a closer look at that first, before engaging into what-aboutism
Is there going to be a great falling away when pre trib believers realize they are heading into the tribulation?
Sadly, yes.
The scriptures call it "apostasy."
People are already falling/fallen away and the trouble hasn't really even begun.
Suffering will bring doubt and then disbelief for many evangelicals. Suffering is outside their doctrinal framework therefore causing one to either walk away from God or change their belief system. Falling away must be the greater response since scripture predicts it.
@@kevinmc62
You nailed it.
I would only add that it is righteous suffering that causes spiritual growth.
"...though He (Jesus) was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered."
Hebrews 5: 8
That's my concern also. The Bible states that the anti-Christ goes after the Christians and he is successful in everything he does. First part of tribulation is Satan's wrath; later part is God's wrath.
We are Brothers & Sisters. Let's never forget it. Thankful for videos like this and even videos I disagree with so I can see where people are coming. Passion debates and brotherly disagreeing conversations over passionate arguments will always go so much further with one another and let the world see the love we have one for another.
Love this! I am strongly pretrib myself but love to hear from other brothers and sisters on their opposing positions on this topic. It's so important to remember that this is not a salvation issue so there is no need to get heated. I see so many nasty arguments in comments sometimes and accusations of false salvation for the opposing view. It's so terrible to see people behaving so unbiblically about this stuff. We can all agree to disagree in love while still being willing to discuss and hear each other out about why we stand where we stand on this.
@@ThenSingsMySoul. Same page, Family!.Same page.
Sorry but there is only one biblical truth either people are children of God or the devil there is no compromise. If a child of the devil you not a brother or sister of Christ. I'm not saying you are either personally I don't know you. But I do know what the very word of God says you either a child of God or a enemy of God's you must choose which side to stand firm on. A ox and a donkey can not be yoked together they both have two different mind sets.
The day of Jesus christ is only ever mentioned by the apostle paul
Raptures in your own Bible that you refuse to study
1-enoch was raptured
2 - Moses body
3- Elijah was raptured
4- Jesus was raptured
5- the old testament saints from Abrams bosom were raptured and passing though Jerusalem were seen of many
6- the day of Jesus christ is going to happen 5993 from creation or 1993 years after christ was raptured before the 7 years of wrath
7- The day of the Lord when the jews are raptured by the angels from the four winds to Jerusalem to meet jesus as he rids in to slay the armies of the antichrist at the end of daniels 70th week
The mystery rapture is only revealed to the apostle Paul found only n the letters to the church's
Stop looking in Matthew for a day of Jesus christ as it wasn't revealed yet
Matthew only mentions the day of the Lord a rapture or gathering of the jews by the angel's after the 70th week
I agree with Joel these are secondary issues and I appreciate my brothers in Christ. That said:
The reasons why people have such a hard time with dispensationalists is they take a careless view of scripture and don’t take God’s word as literally as they should. If you treat the Bible literally then it necessitates a rapture of the church and a later rapture of the tribulation saints
Those that deny a pre-trib rapture always fail to deal with Luke 12:36: “And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return FROM the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.” (Luk 12:36, KJV)
We agree Jesus only returns once. The issue is that Jesus is going to return FROM a wedding, not to get His bride. How can He return from a wedding for the bride He is not with? The only choice you have is to believe it as written or allegorize it which is sloppy eisegesis
Furthermore, the imagery of the resurrection is likened to a harvest. Throughout the Bible a harvest has three parts. Firstfruits, harvest and gleanings. Jesus was the firstfruits, the Church is the harvest and the trib saints are the gleanings.
Lastly, the people saved in Matthew are “guests” at a wedding. The Father sends people into the highways and byways for “guests” to the wedding. The bride is not also a guest. This is why the Matthew parables of the ten virgins where 5 don’t have enough oil doesn’t apply to the church. Those tribulations saints must endure to the end, the church is already sealed.
You either allegorize things that don’t fit your view or you believe it all as it is written and believe it literally.
What is the literal context of Luke 12:36? For whom He is coming, that wait and watch for their Lord? They are servants, the bride, that is missing for the marriage supper. Everything is ready, He comes (erchemai for the Rapture, Mat 24:29-31). Yeshua refers to erchemai for the Rapture and parousia for the wrath of God (Mat 24:42-48 (erchomai)+24:36-41 (parousia) for the wrath. He comes the same day with Rapture and afterward the same Day the wrath of God after the Tribulation at His 2nd coming (parousia) in Luke 17:29-37. He comes as a thief in the night, in the 2. or 3. watch, be ready, you do not know, when the Son of Man comes at an hour, you do not think. Context! No wishful thinking or reading into the text. He comes from the preparation of the wedding. The bride He brings to the wedding!
To Joel:
Question: In Matthew 24:29-31, is Jesus referring to the resurrection unto life (John 5:29, I Thes 4:13-18) OR... is He referring to the salvation of Israel both from their enemies as well as a heart change at His second coming?
I am leaning more towards the idea that Jesus is explaining the rescue and redemption of the Jews from their enemies at His 2nd coming when He comes with all of His armies out of Heaven (Rev 19:11-16). I believe the end of Matthew 23 ( 39For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”) all the way through Matthew 24 and 25 is telling the singular story of Israel's salvation (both the rescue of the remnant from their enemies (the Beast empire (Islamic in nature)) AND their true repentance and changed heart. They will finally give their full allegiance to their God, and Creator...Jesus, who is the/their Messiah.
I'm not convinced that our resurrection/catching up is what Jesus is talking about in this section of scripture then, but rather that He is referring to Isaiah 66:15-16,18-20:
15“For behold, the Lord will come in fire,
and his chariots like the whirlwind,
to render his anger in fury,
and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16For by fire will the Lord enter into judgment,
and by his sword, with all flesh;
and those slain by the Lord shall be man
18“For I know their works and their thoughts, and the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and shall see my glory, 19and I will set a sign among them. And from them I will send survivors to the nations, to Tarshish, Put, and Lud, who draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands far away, that have not heard my fame or seen my glory. And they shall declare my glory among the nations. 20And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the Lord, on horses and in chariots and in litters and on mules and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the Lord, just as the Israelites bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the Lord. 21And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the Lord.
Matthew 24:29 starts off with "Day of the Lord" language.
The language that comes after in verse 30... the "sign" also mentioned in Isaiah 66:19 is the pillar of smoke/fire that is also mentioned in Isaiah 4:5-6 and Isaiah 11:11-16 (in particular in verse 12). It is the same pillar that led Israel in the past and according to Isaiah 4:5-6 it is once again in the land protecting God's people after He has cleansed them with a new heart when finally they say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" (Matthew 23:39) and mourn over whom they have pierced (Zech 12:10).
I believe that the survivors mentioned in Isaiah 66:19 are survivors from the last battle (Armageddon) and are from the 10 nations that form the beast militia. Jesus at His 2nd coming has gone throughout the region in a series of battles with the last battle finally destroying all of the Beast armies except for these few survivors that He sends back as messengers (angels) to their homelands (where they have taken out a portion of Jews) to tell their people "let My people go" (just like Moses was sent to Pharaoh). The nations bring them back to Jerusalem and at that time the nations are judged as sheep or goats (Matthew 25:31-46) based on how they treated the least of His people.
Verse 31 states "gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" which leads us to what is recorded in Deut 30:4-8, Zech 2:6-13 and Neh 1:8-9. This language of the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other is a description of God not only sending His people out of the land but also and more importantly bringing His people back into the land that He gave their fathers AND He gives them a new heart so that they will love God. Duet 30:4-8 is referring to the same time period that Jesus is referring to in Matthew 24 and according to Zech 2 He will dwell in their midst...which again will be this same time period.
As to our resurrection (the 1st resurrection/the resurrection unto life), Paul states in I Thes 4:13-17 that God will bring with Jesus (at His 2nd coming) those who have fallen asleep (dead, not those who will be caught up) down with Him from Heaven (Rev 19:11-16). The "asleep" or dead as shown in Revelation 6 (the martyrs given white robes to wear as well as those John sees in Rev 7 from every tribe, etc) are spirits yet to be reunited with their bodies. They follow Christ down on white horses and then Paul states that the dead will be resurrected first and those left alive will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. So it is in the air (between Heaven and earth, since we are both from the earth and also of Heaven) that I believe our spirits and our bodies will become one again. It is on our way down that we are embodied once more and once we hit the earth we go to war...an invincible army that death no longer has a claim. This resurrection then happens on THE LAST DAY according to Jesus (John 6:39-40) and begins The Day of the Lord. (At least that's what I think, but I could be wrong though...) :)
***Here is a breakdown of the language used in Matthew 24:29-31 that is actually used and explained in the following Old Testament scriptures:
* Tribulation of those days: The time of Jacob's troubles (Jeremiah 30)
* Sun, moon, cosmos: (Joel 2 + 3 + others re: Day of the Lord)
* Powers of the Heavens: (Eph 6:12)12For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Col 1:16For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things were created through him and for him.
* Sign of the Son of Man: The pillar of smoke and fire as in the OT.. (see Isaiah 66:19, Isaiah 4;1-6, Isaiah 11:11-16)
* All tribes of earth will mourn: (Habakkuk 3:3-7, Rev 6:12-17)
* Son of Man on the clouds of heaven: (see Daniel 7:13-14)
* Send out His Angels: (Angels=messengers) (see Isaiah 66:19,20)
* Loud Trumpet: (Joel 2:1-11)
* Gather His elect: (Isaiah 66:19-20, Deut 30:4-8, Zech 2:6-13, Isaiah 11:11-16)
* Four winds of heaven: (see Deut 30:4-8, Zech 2:6-13, Neh 1:8-9)
THANK YOU!.... I grew up with only a pre-trib as an option in church, however as I began to study on my own and finally heard this viewpoint years ago, I landed here as well. I am in the minority like you. So thank you
I can't believe people say THANK YOU for preaching we will suffer God's Judgement and Satan's wrath and we must die refusing the Mark. Yea, we will be starving, getting diseases, have to hide out from the Beast. Yeah!!!!!! Rainbows and lollipops!!!
^^^
You people make me roll my eyes from your ignorance.
Gathering Up together with the Dead in Christ at the First Resurrection When Jesus Christ Said Immediately after the Tribulation of those Days, before the Wrath of the Lamb Jesus Christ when the Dead in Christ and We which Remain Alive are Gathered Up together and Changed Transformed into Eternal Physical Body of Flesh Bone and Spirit Forever to be with the Lord Jesus Christ
@@scott596 we come back with Jesus at the return. The Elders see all seals opened in Heaven, Revelation 5:9. The Elders will rule on the Earth during the Millennium Age as Kings and Priests, Revelation 5:10, meaning they come BACK with Jesus at the return.
@@scott596 the Elders aren't the saints of Tribulation, Revelation 7:13-16. The saints aren't the 144,000 sealed Jews, Revelation 14;1-4
@@scott596 can you explain to me please, why Jesus makes the statement to this group of people they were obviously in the Great Tribulation. When I return from the wedding,! Make sure your lights are burning bright that I might receive you immediately at that time. Take a note, the Jesus is returning from the wedding. And the reason he was speaking to this group of people as they did not go with him because their lights where demaur had gone out completely. You will want to read Matthew 24 1-13 these are the people that we're locked out of the wedding feast
Why does Josh assume that the YOU is the Church, when A, the Church wasn't birthed yet, B, The disciples asked specific questions regarding Israel, NOT the church, and C, the mystery as spoken by Paul in I. Corinthians, and the letter to the Thessalonians was only given to Paul and not the Original 11?
Remnant88 The disciples were the first members of the Church
@@christiansoldier77 cant be the first members when then the Church wasnt even established yet, when Jesus was speaking in Matthew.
@@remnant8898 What? The church was established once Jesus started His ministry.
@@christiansoldier77 what? How can the church start when there is no death, burial, resurrection, ascension and promise of the Holy Spirit?
@@remnant8898 WHat does all of that have to do with the church? THe church is just believers in CHrist .
Thank you for sharing this information. It is so important that the church is ready to endure and not fall away as things accelerate toward the LORD's day. 🙏❤ My husband and I are looking forward to attending the Maranatha End Times Summit in Dallas! It will be great to see Joel in person there.
He Who Endures to the End the Same Shall be Saved,
Please don’t use the word “debunk” in the title. It’s rather low brow for this subject. This channel is better than that. Until we get closer to the end, we all see through a glass darkly. I’ve looked at all positions and have questions about each one. I’m pre trib but if I’m wrong I’ll know what to expect.
The bride of Christ is not appointed to God’s wrath.
Regarding the rapture of the bride of Christ I'm preparing myself in case it is post trib and if it's Pre-trib Hallelujah but I think we should all be prepared to go through the tribulation if necessary
The Tribulation is God's Punishment on a God rejecting World. If you find yourself in the Tribulation, then God dropped you off there because you reject the Gospel of Salvation
@@Pre-Tribulation God's judgment is twofold. There is His anger over sin and sinner, the Greek calls it thumos, it is for repentance, temporary. The punishment is the orge wrath, which comes after the death of the wicked. it does not come in the Tribulation, but after the Trib in Rev 6:17 and 11:15-18 at His 2. coming, when Yeshua treads the wine press of the orge wrath of God (Rev 19:15).
The Tribulation is not 7 years, but 3 1/2 years (Dan 12:7; 7:25). God drops Christians also into Great Tribulation (Rev 2:22), if you believe false doctrine. If you love a lie and you make a lie, your salvation is in danger (Rev 21:27; 22:15).
What will you do, when you realize, the AC has come and you are still on earth?
@@benny-yj7pq if you believe Jesus drops HIS BODY to demon hordes, Revelation 9:15-16, a pissed off Devil, Revelation 12:12, the AntiChrist, Revelation 13:5-8, and the Mark, Revelation 13:16, then abandonment is a virtue and you should start preaching its OK to abandon our wife, husband, children, loved ones, pets, etc. Remember, Jesus is your example of how we should conduct ourselves.
@@Pre-Tribulation Read Rev 2:22 before you make false accusations. Yeshua drops not His body to demon hordes. Rev 2:22 are Christians that commit spiritual adultery, it is his grace for repentance, if they do not repent, they go to hell. You preach doomsday, a horrible 3 1/2 year Great tribulation, making it even 7 years long. You overlook, that God sends 144000 and His 2 witnesses into the Great Tribulation. You do not know God and His power, to save many in the Great Tribulation out of all nations (Rev 7:9+14). I believe that there is an escape for the last 3 1/2 years, but not through a Rapture, that is not in the bible, but only for those believers with a clean heart, because the Lord takes only a spotless bride. Most Christians have not a clean heart, there is more darkness in them than light, because they do not repent daily and get dirty. They will go through tribulation to cleans them (Dan 12:10)
@@benny-yj7pq Revelation 2:1 KJV Unto the 👉 ANGEL 👈 of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
^^^ we DON'T have ANGELS over our Body of Christ Church. Jesus is our head and we are His Body. Angels are over ALL churches in Revelation 2&3. They are works based, and a report card is given for their works. All they get is the Crown of Life, and even THAT expires by midpoint and the only way to get the Crown of Life is by being a martyr. We ALL get the Crown of Righteousness in the Age of Grace, or upgraded Crowns. Paul's Church is boogying down IN HEAVEN while the Tribulation Churches endure the AntiChrist.
At one point he is recommending a book to "debunk" PRETRIB. He doesn't say that Dr Brown and Keener also disagree with his pre wrath view. Why do all of these skeptics wanna gang up on pre trib? I never see you debating each other in eschatology videos and comment sections. 🤔
Can't debunk the Bible folks. We are not appointed to wrath as believers. Once the tribulation starts I believe that is wrath. I believe the whole tribulation is a form of wrath. I think it gets worse at the end but it's all bad. Either way we will see soon. We can all agree it's any day now because all the signs are here for the tribulation to start
Explain tribulation saints?
The Great Flood was wrath. The plagues in Egypt were wrath. God's people weren't removed but were protected. God can provide protection to His obedient beloved during tribulation.
It is very disturbing for me to hear some who claims to be a man of God to say "I try to avoid controversial talk or subjects". This gives me the lack of trust that this person even cares to stand for biblical truth no matter how controversial it is. I'm not saying you should shout your beliefs from the treetops but if the subject is brought forth it needs to be approached with stern biblical truth no matter how much it divides people. No I myself I do not believe in pre-tribulation rapture this is a doctrine taught by spirits of demons not true men of God. Once again I'm not saying that everyone that believes in the rapture is a demon what I'm saying is the doctrine itself is a doctrine of demons and who ever teaches this lie is being lead astray by demons. There are many religious leaders that have rejected the true Holy Spirit of God and have accepted a spirit of demons. I pray that they will turn from there evil way before it's too late.
This gentleman does not seem to understand what the purpose of the tribulation is - to bring the Jewish nation to the realization that Jesus Christ IS their Messiah. The tribulation is not for the church, believers in Jesus. It is "the time of Jacob's trouble"- not the gentiles' trouble. That understanding is fundamental to rightly dividing Scriptures about the last days. I am curious whether he believes in replacement theology. If he believes that the Church has taken the place of Israel as God's chosen people, then his perspective is a little easier to understand. Yes, there are absolutely parts of Scripture that do not directly apply to Christians or gentiles. Those Scriptures are for the Jews, who God has absolutely not abandoned or forgotten.
Also, the entire tribulation is God's wrath, so a "Pre-wrath" position makes no sense at all.
I just discovered these guys at FAI and have thoroughly enjoyed their teaching. I too am a post trib person
Hey, i used to like FAI and still think a lot of the teaching is probably solid, but Dalton Thomas and his wife (the founders) have been accused of (credibly, as far as I can tell) about gross sexual sin and have yet to really step down or find accountability. I would just be wary and check it out just in case it would sway how you support their ministry. I used to LOVE their music too but just can’t… hopefully they repent if the allegations are true
@@kaitlinrose6352 that's history if it's true. We all have fallen and sinned during our walk with Messiah. I don't think it was your place to mention it besides how do you know it's true? Cause you read it somewhere? I don't think Dalton would appreciate it. Would you like it if someone posted something you did on the TH-cam comment section. Your gossiping..you need to repent.
@@meadow9166 I do not believe it is gossiping to warn someone about a potential failure in a leader who has yet to repent. It was not a long time ago. It was not that long before 2020. I can find and link the article if you like. It was VERY long because it was also sharing the shortcoming of the person who wrote it, who also sinned sexually and shared how he came to post the article, after MUCH prayer and humbling himself before church leadership and seeking counsel. He tried to talk to Dalton multiple times and Dalton would always tell him they needed to solve it within FAI only. He didn’t want outside counsel or accountability. Why would the author incriminate himself and show so many details of his own faults if it was a lie?
Like I said… I do not know 100% if it is true, but it caused me to not want to learn from him because the article had enough evidence to make me worried it was more likely to be true than false. I genuinely do not believe I sinned by trying to warn others who might also have their faith wounded by really trusting a pastor and then being sorrowfully let down.
EVERYONE sins. But we are ALL supposed to repent and step down from leadership if it is a disqualifying sin. None of which he has done
Read my comment and answer it.
@@davidskeen5210 I spent awhile searching for your comment. Cannot find it
I would appreciate it if Dr. Andy Woods and Joel could discuss this topic on your show. I’ve flip flopped on this subject and would like to nail it down. Studying the Word to show myself approved.
See my comment to the channel owners from earlier tonight.
Rememeber two things. 1) any position outside of pre-trib means immanency is gone. 2) there are 8 verses that say that believers aren't subject to God's wrath. It makes it pretty hard to believe mid or post trib if you just use these two topics.
The thief in the night teaching in Matthew 24:36-51 is missing some of what Jesus says in Luke 12:35-48 and is overlooked by pastors teaching from Matthew 24:36-51. In Luke 12:36 we see that the master who represents Jesus returning for His faithful servants who are burning their lamps, waiting and watching for His return; returns FROM the wedding. This indicates the marriage of the Lamb has already occurred by the time Jesus returns to rapture the Church. He comes and sits His servants down and feeds them (marriage supper of the Lamb) who in Luke 12:37 are called blessed which parallels Revelation 19:9. This all points to after the tribulation.
Eating, drinking and being given into marriage is referencing the rest of the world like in Noah not the believers necessarily speaking. Think about the holocaust. They were eating, drinking and being given into marriage while the Jewish people were being persecuted and killed. Life was normal for most.
The 7 year tribulation does not have the Wrath of Lamb in it like many believe. The 6th seal, the Wrath of the Lamb parallels Matthew 24:29-31 and is opened after the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:4-26 by Jesus. Matthew 24:29 specifically says this.
Who then are considered the bride of the Lamb? These are those who the Lord avenge the blood of found in Revelation 19:1-8 who do a righteous act for the namesake of Jesus. These are those in the 5th seal.
Revelation 19:11-21 reflects Jesus returning from the wedding at the shout of an angel calling the birds together for the feast. Birds are figurative for faithful servants and flesh is figurative for food. This is food kept from the faithful servants because of the mark of the beast. Jesus will take all that food back from the evil doers who are deceived by taking the mark of the beast.
Matthew 24:28, "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together." The carcass represents the whole feast and there will be were the eagles (birds) will be gathered.
An example of God using birds as faithful servants is found in 1 Kings 17 when God uses ravens to bring meat to Elijah at the brook. In this story Elijah was told by the Word of the Lord in verse 3, “Get away from here and turn eastward, and hide by the Brook Cherith, which flows into the Jordan." This is similar to what is said in Matthew 24:16, “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."
@@revelationminister1910 Greetings. I am afraid you are connecting dots with birds/food/servants, that just aren’t supported by the text. We know the rapture happens prior to the 7-year trib because there are MANY verses that tell us that believers are not appointed to wrath. Who is the wrath for? Nahum 1:2 says “God reserves wrath for His enemies". Obviously, that is not referring to church age believers. We know that the seal judgements are wrath of Jesus as Revelation 6 plainly states at the end. We aren't appointed to seal judgements as they are wrath.
In Matthew 16:18 Jesus says I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Then in Revelation 13:7 it says the Antichrist was given power over all nations to make war with the saints and to overcome them. Well, we already know Satan can’t overcome the church because Jesus said so. So clearly the church must be gone (Raptured) from earth during the tribulation period in which the anti-christ will overcome the church.
I’ll leave you with comforting words that Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 - And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. Therefore comfort each other with these words (1 Thess 4:16), referring to the rapture in the prior verse.
@@nick2727 Greetings. I can understand your skepticism in regards to my comments on birds/food/servants; that's ok. That was not anything that was revealed to you.
I agree we are not appointed to the wrath in the 6th and 7th seals because they are not in the 7 year tribulation.
The problem many have in regards to the 7 year tribulation is it is believed the seal judgements are in the 7 year tribulation. This is not true according to Matthew 24:29-31 which indicates the 6th seal does not open until after the tribulation of those days that Jesus just spoke about in Matthew 24:4-26. Pretribulation doctrine says Matthew 24:15-28 is for Israel and not the Church. You are sharing Nahum 1:2 is saying wrath is for the enemies of God. So you are saying an enemy of God is Israel? The ones He is wanting to save? Matthew 24:29-31 parallel's and describes Revelation 6:12-17 (6th seal).
The enemy of God is the one deceiving Israel. Not Israel. This is why the Wrath of the Lamb is not in the 7 year tribulation. The 7 year tribulation will be when God's enemy will come against God's people including the Church. This a time God will use to get Israel's attention before His Wrath is poured out through the judgements. Those of Israel and others too, who do not open their eyes and heed the warning and turn away from their wickedness in worshiping a false god will then suffer the consequences of the Wrath of the Lamb after the 7 years are complete. The job of the two witnesses will be to preach to all of Israel's Jewish and to all nations, tongues and tribes. This will be one of the last chances to hear the gospel short of the angel who will preach the gospel just prior to Jesus's return.
Jesus is going to pour down His Wrath on His enemies who came against His people and His people includes the Church. He will avenge the blood of the saints who the enemy will kill. Before His Wrath is poured out He will then resurrect those who are asleep in Jesus unto Himself. Those who remain alive will not by any means precede those who are asleep in Jesus. "By any means" include past, present and future saints which includes saints killed during the tribulation and the two witnesses.
Revelation 19:1-8, tells us the bride MAKES herself ready through a righteous act. This righteous act was an act of the saints of the tribulation (5th seal saints) according to Revelation 19:2, 8; Revelation 7:11-14. These are the bride who MAKE herself ready. If you will read Revelation 19:1-9 you will see this and you will also see the Wedding consists of two parts. The marriage of Lamb and then the marriage supper of the Lamb with those who are called blessed. Just like Luke 12:35-40 and Revelation 19:9 states.
Revelation 7:11-14 is the same exact scene in Revelation 19:4-8.
Oh by the way, here are the 24 elders. They are not the representation of the Church as thought to be. 1 Chronicles 24:7-18, "Now the first lot fell to Jehoiarib, the second to Jedaiah, 8 the third to Harim, the fourth to Seorim, 9 the fifth to Malchijah, the sixth to Mijamin, 10 the seventh to Hakkoz, the eighth to Abijah, 11 the ninth to Jeshua, the tenth to Shecaniah, 12 the eleventh to Eliashib, the twelfth to Jakim, 13 the thirteenth to Huppah, the fourteenth to Jeshebeab, 14 the fifteenth to Bilgah, the sixteenth to Immer, 15 the seventeenth to Hezir, the eighteenth to Happizzez, 16 the nineteenth to Pethahiah, the twentieth to Jehezekel, 17 the twenty-first to Jachin, the twenty-second to Gamul, 18 the twenty-third to Delaiah, the twenty-fourth to Maaziah."
If you read further in Revelation 19:17-21, you will see this parallels what is written in Luke 12:35-40. Matthew 24:36-51 which is derived from Luke 12:35-48 is for the Church according to the pretribulation view.
In regards to Matthew 16:18 yes Satan is given power to wage war and his agenda will be to overcome the saints. He will try to overcome the Church but will not succeed as we know. This doesn't mean the Church is already raptured before the 7 year tribulation.
I would like to have 2 Thessalonians 2 explained in the context of a post-trib rapture. Thanks!
Try and explain it in the Context of a pre trib one. It clearly states that day and our gathering ( rapture) will not happen until there is a falling away ( apostasy) and the man of sin is revealed. How can pre fibbers claim the church won't see the antichrist when 2 Thessalonians is clear.
People please be obsessed for the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ Maranatha not Harpazo, the fact that all Rapture incident speak about His Coming and the Trumpet sound is agreeing to the Jesus Christ own very word in Matthew 24: 29ff. If the apostles word is speaking about another kind of coming apart from the source Jesus Christ teaching then that would be bizzare...
I am inclined to the Post-Trib position so this message was greatly appreciated. I need to know how the scripture regarding the removal of "the restrainer" is to be interpreted-----Is it referring to the Church?
Always a one sided argument with the pre and post trib guys. Why don't you have an expert on both positions debate the issue and let people decide based on the word of God.
I went to Michael Miller's conference this weekend and it was amazing! The Lord was glorified mightily!
Same! It was awesome! 🙌🏻
@Brazen Metz Hey they called on you too! They prayed for my carpel tunnel and my hands feel way better. It's awesome how much God cares for us. I wasn't even thinking about it that day but I had prayed earlier in the week because it was affecting my guitar playing and I was getting bummed out about it. Hallelujah!!!
@@tonypino5415 that’s awesome man! So glad to hear that. Praise the Lord 🙌🏻
I also received healing at the conference and in a similar way! I had issues with my neck from whiplash, and after receiving prayer it completely left! It was bothering me throughout the week but wasn’t on my mind going to the conference. There’s a video on my Instagram if you want to see it!
Good to hear. I saw a post and people were already questioning it and calling for proof.
Not sure why Joel wants to divide and draw a line in the sand because others view it (the catching away or rapture) differently than he. Calling names and attributing a cult following. People will say the word "rapture" is not in the bible. I will respond the word "bible" is not in the bible. In fact, rapture\catching\snatching away\taken away is derived from the translated word harpazo
apiemur
apio (Greek\Latin). For the simple fact that Joel desires to be right\correct in his views - he is willing to knock other Christians. It is okay to state\say this is my viewpoint\opinion and if need be, why that is. It is also okay to say that this is how I believe and I am not sure how it is all going to go down.......but God does. Battle lines in the sand are not necessary with brothers & sisters in Christ over something that we cannot control. It absolutely serves no purpose. My personal opinion is that there is more biblical evidence for a pre\mid trib rapture over a post trib. I do know that God has not appointed us (those in Christ) to HIS wrath\judgements - how that plays out is upon God. My opinion is that there are much bigger issues - like to spread the good news of Christ.
Wow what a complete lack of understanding of The Bible Maybe you guys should spend some time studying even Polycarp thought there would be a rapture There seems to be a demonic spirit behind these pre-rapture mockers
This content is super valuable at this time stage. I believe it`s the best to be in open attitude for whatever happening. If Jesus say COME, we just go and if he say stay to reap, we stay but sure thing is as Rev 3:10 says, we are protected. Whatever the God`s will be.
Believe, repent, watch and pray always to be accounted worthy to escape all the things that are coming to pass and stand before the Son of man.
“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
John 14:1-3
“And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”
Luke 21:34-36
This issue is extremely important. Imagine the fall away from Christ when they aren't rescued
Few consider that and I believe is will be monumental. I read a book years a book written by someone who was a missionary in China before the communists took over. The concerns of the Chinese people was the communists would take over their country but the response of the general missionaries was "the Lord would return and rapture them first." He did not return first and many turned their backs on the missionaries and the gospel. You are right this is very important and many will not accept teaching against rapture. I had a guy tell me once that he would not serve a God who would put him through something like that. I was stunned and did not know what to say. Today I would take the risk of being rude and say "then perhaps you do not."
Three simple ones who can't find truth
Raptures in your own Bible that you refuse to study
1-enoch was raptured
2 - Moses body
3- Elijah was raptured
4- Jesus was raptured
5- the old testament saints from Abrams bosom were raptured and passing though Jerusalem were seen of many
6- the day of Jesus christ is going to happen 5993 from creation or 1993 years after christ was raptured before the 7 years of wrath
7- The jews are raptured by the angels from the four winds to Jerusalem to meet jesus as he rids in to slay the armies of the antichrist at the end of daniels 70th week
It is only the timing being debated , not the rapture itself.
@@forevereign7759 Yes but that alone is enough to make a LOT of people question their faith in God. Tribulation is coming for us all, and it will cause many who believe to fall away and be forever lost. Only those who remain faithful until death will be saved.
That does not sound like "In a twinkling of an eye" in Paul's epistle. Joel Richardson said in Matthew 24:29, "that all people will mourn and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds." I don't think they can see that in a twinkling of an eye and mourn. I don't listen and believe what people or preachers say, I read it and depend on the Holy Spirit to teach me. Sorry Pre-trib is biblical. God bless 🙌 🙏
Jesus doesn't touch the earth on the rapture, bible says He will gather them in the AIR! NOT touching the mountain.
Like everyone says. Read it yourself. No commentators. Where can you find pre trib?
Pre trib here. Jesus will come for his Church🙏❤️
What does an understanding of the New Covenant do to the Pretrib Rapture doctrine?
Since the New Covenant is “everlasting” in Hebrews 13:20, how is the New Covenant Church age going to end seven years before the Second Coming of Christ? Why would anyone think God is going back to the Old Covenant system now made “obsolete” by the New Covenant in Hebrews 8:13? We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
The Capitol "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 of this passage proves at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the people of God.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."
(The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197.) Tim LaHaye was co-author of the “Left Behind” books and movies which have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Church age ends seven years before the Second Coming of Christ. Recently, Pastor Matt Furse of Mountain View Baptist Church in Custer, S.D. has written a book titled “Which One Is Right?’, which reveals the recent history of the pretrib rapture doctrine, and the fact it does not agree with what is written in the King James Bible.
The gathering of the Church is described at the end of 1 Thess. Chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5. The word “But” in the first verse of chapter 5 connects the two chapters, and the words “we” and “sleep” in verse 10 of chapter 5 prove the two chapters are connected.
The Greek words for “wrath” and “tribulation” are not the same word, as proven by the verse below.
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Watch the TH-cam video “Pretribulation Paradox” by former pretrib believer skydiver626.
@@SpotterVideo the saints of Tribulation aren't part of the New Covenant. They had to die refusing the Mark.
@@Pre-Tribulation
Heb 13:20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.
::::::::::::::::
Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-
Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.
Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.
1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH-
Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
@@SpotterVideo the saints are NOT part of the "New Covenant'. The new Covenant doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the Mark.
Not sure I like the sarcasm used when quoting Rev 3:10, Rev 4:1 caught up in Heaven, the way his voice emphasized in ridicule over pre Tribbers. Which believe the believers are not subject to the hour of Judgement coming on the whole World. And Rev 2:10 is Tribulation for 10 days, not to be held in comparison to the Rev 3:10 hour of judgement on the World . 55 min caught up into Heaven sounds kind of Raptury rolls eyes.
There is no way to debunk the pre-trib Rapture.
I was told I could sit in the back of the church but I wasn't allowed to talk to anyone about NOT believing the pretrib rapture, because it is a denominational doctrine and you cannot go against doctrine.
You will never grow in ANY propositionally based "church."
Find a smaller group, a Bible study, etc. Remember, the church = Holy Spirit filled true believers, NOT a man-made organization!
What does an understanding of the New Covenant do to the Pretrib Rapture doctrine?
Since the New Covenant is “everlasting” in Hebrews 13:20, how is the New Covenant Church age going to end seven years before the Second Coming of Christ? Why would anyone think God is going back to the Old Covenant system now made “obsolete” by the New Covenant in Hebrews 8:13? We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
The Capitol "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 of this passage proves at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the people of God.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."
(The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197.) Tim LaHaye was co-author of the “Left Behind” books and movies which have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Church age ends seven years before the Second Coming of Christ. Recently, Pastor Matt Furse of Mountain View Baptist Church in Custer, S.D. has written a book titled “Which One Is Right?’, which reveals the recent history of the pretrib rapture doctrine, and the fact it does not agree with what is written in the King James Bible.
The gathering of the Church is described at the end of 1 Thess. Chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5. The word “But” in the first verse of chapter 5 connects the two chapters, and the words “we” and “sleep” in verse 10 of chapter 5 prove the two chapters are connected.
The Greek words for “wrath” and “tribulation” are not the same word, as proven by the verse below.
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Watch the TH-cam video “Pretribulation Paradox” by former pretrib believer skydiver626.
The day of Jesus christ is only ever mentioned by the apostle paul
Raptures in your own Bible that you refuse to study
1-enoch was raptured
2 - Moses body
3- Elijah was raptured
4- Jesus was raptured
5- the old testament saints from Abrams bosom were raptured and passing though Jerusalem were seen of many
6- the day of Jesus christ is going to happen 5993 from creation or 1993 years after christ was raptured before the 7 years of wrath
7- The day of the Lord when the jews are raptured by the angels from the four winds to Jerusalem to meet jesus as he rids in to slay the armies of the antichrist at the end of daniels 70th week
The mystery rapture is only revealed to the apostle Paul found only n the letters to the church's
Stop looking in Matthew for a day of Jesus christ as it wasn't revealed yet
Matthew only mentions the day of the Lord a rapture or gathering of the jews by the angel's after the 70th week
Amen I'll sit beside you
Earth is stationary and inside the molten sea inside the temple in heaven under God's throne
The day of Jesus christ is only ever mentioned by the apostle paul
Raptures in your own Bible that you refuse to study
1-enoch was raptured
2 - Moses body
3- Elijah was raptured
4- Jesus was raptured
5- the old testament saints from Abrams bosom were raptured and passing though Jerusalem were seen of many
6- the day of Jesus christ is going to happen 5993 from creation or 1993 years after christ was raptured before the 7 years of wrath
7- The day of the Lord when the jews are raptured by the angels from the four winds to Jerusalem to meet jesus as he rids in to slay the armies of the antichrist at the end of daniels 70th week
The mystery rapture is only revealed to the apostle Paul found only n the letters to the church's
Stop looking in Matthew for a day of Jesus christ as it wasn't revealed yet
Matthew only mentions the day of the Lord a rapture or gathering of the jews by the angel's after the 70th week
If you consider that Rev 3:10 was written to the specific church of Philadelphia of that day, and Jesus said He would keep them from the day of wrath, well He did that already, because they have all passed on before the tribulation of the last days has come! So He DID keep them from it!
It’s not the “Day of wrath”; it’s the “hour of testing”!
"THY KINGDOM COME, THY WILL BE DONE AS EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN."
LOVE this chat! Man it’s just the plain reading of scripture. Pre trib just is so far reaching and playing around with the text.
You guys also crack me uo
It's actually a very selective and narrow reading of the scripture. See my comment from earlier tonight.
I do not give an ear to anyone preaching anything other than a pre-trib rapture. Including this one. I have heard it all and I believe in a pre trib rapture. It is our blessed hope and we are told to comfort one another with this word.
Amen!!!
Amen me to. Revelation 3:10 said he will keep us from this tribulation that will come upon the rest of the world
I suggest you read Scripture with an open mind. If you can keep your bias on hold, you should be able to understand why everyone doesn't agree with pre-trib rapture.
This whole video breaks my heart. Joel is sowing division whether he says he is not.
The pre tribulation rapture is causing division not Joel. He is speaking truth..read your Bible you'll see if you have eyes and ears to hear what it's saying. Don't blame the brother who is trying to share truth with us. Watch a channel that lies to you.
@@meadow9166 no it’s not! I’m pretrib all my life and I never hear any of those teachers disparage people who believe different like this man just did.
What does it matter anyway. It’s not a Salvation issue! How you believe about the rapture will not get you into or keep you out of Heaven!!!!
Wow, well, I started listening to this to see if Joel had factual information that stood up well against the pretribulation rapture (PTR). Before I list just 3 examples of him misrepresenting, accidently I'm sure, what PTR teaches, I MUST say that I lost all respect for him when he jumped at the chance to NAME those preachers whom he feels are teaching the wrong theory, i.e. not Joel's theory. (Jesus said: For he that is not against us is for us” (Mark 9:38-40). What's obvious is these pastors are bringing MANY into the Kingdom and you guys are judging another man's servant. Also I don't follow these pastors so I don't have a motive. Now, the examples: In my 40ish years of studying the PTR, as well as MTR, PTR, etc., I've NEVER heard PTR teach some of the things Joel's saying they teach! The 1st and easiest to debunk is the yoyo theory! The only ones I've heard teach that are those who don't have fact to discuss the PTR so they hide behind bullying and ridicule.
2. The father of the groom tells his son, "you must wait, not now, not now, ok...GO"! PTRs believe, The father tells his son, the groom, "when I have given my approval of the house you have prepared for your bride, THEN I will tell you to go get her." 3. Those that don't believe PTR are kicked out of the church! Come on! My husband and I were military for 20 yrs so we've belonged to several churches. I've always been open about my studies on rapture opinions. I have NEVER been ostracized, etc. I attended an Assembly of God University for 6 years. What they always stressed is, "hope for the best, prepare for the worst." Very disappointing program in so many ways...
Words of Jesus himself Luke 21:36 But keep alert at all times [be attentive and ready], praying that you may have the strength and ability [to be found worthy and] to "ESCAPE" all these things that are going to take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man [at His coming].” 1 Thes 5:9 Amplified Bible For God HAS NOT destined us to [incur His] wrath [that is, He did not select us to condemn us], but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
I am still pre Trip
Me too
@@melanierollins508me too, mid and post trib tosses out doctrine of imminence, among other things. 95% of the church is already in heaven and without purifying themselves by enduring the tribulation.
You will be deceived by the Antichrist if you believe in this false doctrine
The Pre-Trib Rature is the enemy’s torpedo that will hit every person who believes in it amidships right below the waterline. It will take a while to sink, but the faith of many will grow cold and many (most) will leave the faith. Because, if our Pastors missed it on this doctrine so thoroughly, what else is a lie? Maybe all of it. This is an important discussion. Thanks!
it's less that they will fall away and more that they will fall for the Antichrist due to not thinking they are in the time of him
The day of Jesus christ is only ever mentioned by the apostle paul
Raptures in your own Bible that you refuse to study
1-enoch was raptured
2 - Moses body
3- Elijah was raptured
4- Jesus was raptured
5- the old testament saints from Abrams bosom were raptured and passing though Jerusalem were seen of many
6- the day of Jesus christ is going to happen 5993 from creation or 1993 years after christ was raptured before the 7 years of wrath
7- The day of the Lord when the jews are raptured by the angels from the four winds to Jerusalem to meet jesus as he rids in to slay the armies of the antichrist at the end of daniels 70th week
The mystery rapture is only revealed to the apostle Paul found only n the letters to the church's
Stop looking in Matthew for a day of Jesus christ as it wasn't revealed yet
Matthew only mentions the day of the Lord a rapture or gathering of the jews by the angel's after the 70th week
We have inherited many lies from our fathers (and pastors). Read the word without any bias and you will find them rather quickly.
This man is deceived and leading people astray.
Yes - but not regarding his eschatology
Compared to the evidence supporting a pre-trib rapture, Joel’s argument is very weak. I’ve heard better arguments against pre-trib from more sociable individuals. His attack on the way Josh asked a question was ridiculous! Joel gets one star for his argument and zero stars for character.
For those considering Joel's take on the timing of the rapture and the distinction between tribulation (Satan's persecution of Christians and Jews) and God's Wrath (His judgment on unbelievers via Trumpet and Bowl judgments), consider this...
The disciples asked Jesus 'What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?' In his answer, Jesus listed, in order, a dozen or so events that had to happen (culminating in the darkening of the sun and moon and the falling of the stars) just prior to his appearance in the clouds and His gathering of the elect (Rapture).
Then in Revelation, Jesus showed John a similar list of events. And He covered many of those events twice, in two separate visions... once in Rev 6-7 and again in Rev 12-14 (where He introduced more characters to the story and added more detail). Here's a comparison of those events in Matthew 24 and in Revelation:
Event Matt Revelation (2 visions, same events)
False Christs 24:4 6:1 13:8 (1st Seal)
Wars 24:6 6:3 13:7 (2nd Seal)
Famines, Earthquakes (Pestilence Luke 21:11) 24:7 6:5-8 13:16 (3rd & 4th Seals)
Persecution, Martyrdom 24:9 6:9 13:10-15 (5th Seal)
False prophets 24:11 13:11-14
Gospel to all nations 24:14 14:6
Abomination of Desolation 24:15 12:6
Flee Judea 24:16 12:6-16
Beginning of 'great tribulation' 24:21 7:14 12:17
Days of Great Tribulation 'cut short' 24:22
Sun & moon darkened, stars fall 24:29 6:12 (6th Seal)
Jesus' 2nd Coming (on the clouds) 24:30 6:15 14:14 (6th Seal)
Gathering of the elect (Rapture) 24:31 7:2-14 14:15 (6th Seal)
There is no 7-year 'Tribulation'. Scripture only mentions a period of 'great tribulation' (Matt 24:21, Rev 7:14) which starts after the Abomination of Desolation and lasts 42 months (Dan 9).
And based on Jesus' answer, it appears Daniel's 70th Week will be split into 4 parts:
1. Beginning of birth pains (seems to include Seals 1-4 as Antichrist gains political power)
2. Great Tribulation (Seal 5, begins at the mid-point when Antichrist declares himself god and then persecutes Christians and Jews)
3. Jesus' 2nd Coming (Seal 6, on the clouds, marking of the 144,000, the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the rapture)
4. The end (seems to be referring to God's judgment/wrath)
Note that Jesus didn't specifically mention God's Wrath in Matt 24 other than to say "And then, the end will come". But He did reveal God's Wrath to John in Rev 8-11 (Trumpet Judgments) and in Rev 15-20 (Bowl Judgments). The chapters in between (Rev 12-14) are a recap of the events of Rev 6-7 where he introduces new characters and provides more detail. God's judgment happens AFTER Jesus appears on the clouds (Seal 6) and the scroll is fully opened (Seal 7).
Once we realize that Jesus described the events leading up to his return in two separate visions (Rev 6-7 and Rev 12-14), Revelation becomes much less confusing. It also helps to know that the scroll contains the Father's instructions for his wrath and that his wrath can't begin until the scroll is fully opened (wrath starts with Seal 7 in Rev 8).
Hope this helps someone.
The problem is we have a body believing "Best life now". They have rejected the reality that "You will be hated by all men for my name's sake". So, they reject the notion that persecution will come to their doorstep. They are not prepared to suffer hardship for Christ's names sake. The hold fast to a pre-trib rapture because they rejected suffering for Christ.
The Rapture isn't to escape persecution! Although... it will escape that too... The Rapture is to escape the "Thief in the night", or, "Snare" event that tests the whole world with Mark or No Mark. We escape judgment as Days of Noah and Days of Lot or Jesus would not have mentioned this about End Times
I think you are missing the deeper issue of why such a doctrine is able the thrive. A large majority of the American church does not teach a Theology of Suffering, therefore the church has no framework or expectation of suffering as reality.
Get your concealed carry license. Make THEM suffer
Exactly. This whole "pre-trib" doctrine that 90+ percent of the American church ascribes to is one designed to appeal to our fleshly nature, since we don't like the idea of suffering. We're spoiled beyond belief in this country, and the Tribulation is going to test the church's faithfulness to God in the days to come. Unfortunately, the vast majority of self-proclaimed believers will fail the test and fall away, leaving behind a tiny faithful remnant that will be saved. This is the great apostasy that the Bible says must take place.