I grew up in a dogmatic calvary chapel pre-trib, Dispensational tradition. They taught it as unquestionably dogma. My parents also taught me the pre-trib doctrine of imminency from a very young age. When i was 22 years old i decided to stop believing everything that i was told and get my doctrine from the Scriptures alone. When i read the olivet discourse, 2nd thessalonians 2:1-4 and also revalation chapters 6-8 i ended up rejecting Pre-tribulationalism and came to the conclusion that the Rapture will happen AFTER the anti-christ's great Tribulation but BEFORE the day of the LORD'S wrath upon the wicked. I came to this conclusion before i ever even heard of the Pre-wrath rapture position.
Different background (mostly with prophetic teaching non-existent) but the same line of evidence and passages for me. I called myself a “Revelation 7 rapturist” for several years before running into prewrath
Amen. I read revelation hundreds of times. I have swayed back and forth and watched so many different views. Both views twist scripture and have arrogant haughty belief and disrespect the other side. We need unity. There is a reason why there is a blessing to those that read and understand revelation. We need to be open to both and to look for both. MY MAIN QUESTION FOR PRE TRIB IS HOW WOULD A GREAT FALLING AWAY HAPPEN AS WELL AS MATTHEW 24. STOP SPEAKING FOR JESUS AND LET IT HAPPEN. LOVE OTHER BROTHERS AND SISTERS AND DONT STRIFE OVER THIS ISSUE OF MENS CREATION OF CONCEPTS
I attended a pre trib-rapture church for almost 5 years trying to believe in it, but yet, questioning as well. They were so dogmatic about it, the pastor would literally call you a loser if you didn't believe it. They taught that the word apostacy in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3-4 meant a physical departure from earth. No where else in the Bible is it ever applied to as such, but, rather, a falling away from faith.> 3 Let No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above [e]every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. They also contradict the scripture which states the man of sin will be revealed before any Rapture occurs. Matthew 24 is also crystal clear on when it occurs. There is no mention anywhere in the Bible of two second advents, or as some pre-tribber foolishly said once to me, the second coming happens in two stages. I left this church many years ago and obtained proper instruction from pastors, Jacob Prasch and Dalton Thomas.
@@craigsaunders2382 "Dogmatic"? Please define that & describe just how that manifest itself in that church...what did that look like? I'm thinking this... That you're just as set/secure in YOUR belief than the church you attended. Look, I enjoy listening to Kurschner, but I will TOTALLY disagree with him on the matter of end times. I'm familiar with the arguments he puts forth...I've listened to him debate the matter...I've read a wee bit from him, but none of the arguments are convincing to me, _ANNNN_ the majority of Christendom I don't think. Granted, that in itself doesn't cement the pre-trib position (the one I align with) as being "correct", but I simply u/stand the scriptures to teach the rapture happening *PRIOR* to the tribulation period. So sure...I TOO would be "dogmatic" about the position (as is Kurschner & I guess you too?), but I won't break fellowship over the matter.
You're right on, Pat. The "day and hour"(DH) of the Lord's return comes AFTER all the events Jesus described in the Olivet discourse (Matt. 24:5-31). The church must first "see all these things" before that day (Matt.24:33,36). Pretribs believe the DH comes before the tribulation.
He DIDN'T say He will rapture the church "after the tribulation", sorry. Why _skate_ over an entire chapter to cull THREE WORDS from a passage to find support for a narrative?
@@amsterdamG2G Obviously you know I'll respond with a hearty "YES", so just what passage do you want to discuss? You obviously think not, so what passage do you find the church in, where we're getting raptured AFTER the tribulation?
@@amsterdamG2G Well you've conveniently taken a pass on addressing a/thing that has been brought to your attention, so I really hesitate to bring a/thing else up @ this point...so I won't, only to say that "LAST/LAST "DAY" is not a technical term/phrase. In o/words, it doesn't mean the same thing e/time you find the mention of it, & sorry, but doesn't point to what you think it does.
God blessed me so much when he delivered me out from the occult. I was born into a Masonic family, so all my understanding of the Bible was twisted. I threw out everything I knew and started over. I came into this Christian world with a blank slate. Still stinging from the realization of how many lies I'd been buried under. I started looking for Bible teachers. With Bible in hand and a healthy skepticism of everyone teaching it, I began my trek through the insanity that is YT. God has been so incredibly faithful, he's led me to some awesome teachers. I deeply appreciate this teaching. Thank God for Jesus.....Maranatha!
@@BrknVeel I wasn't being rude.... the cult of dispensationalism teaches a counterfeit gospel, a counterfeit salvation a counterfeit return of Christ and a counterfeit return of Christ... Here are some questions for you: -----After Christ warns "take heed that no man deceive you..."Matt 24:4, He directly states that He comes after the tribulation... vs 29-31. If you are going to suggest the opposite of Christ (antichrist spirit) and suggest that He comes prior to tribulation... What Scripture tells you that He comes prior to tribulation? ------If Jesus comes "like a thief in the night" when the heavens are destroyed with a great noise... 2 Peter 3:10.... how can a "rapture event" happen prior that would create a countdown to when the heavens would be destroyed? -----How can there be a rapture prior to Christ rewarding the quick and the dead... which happens at the 7th trumpet... Rev 11:15-18... If Paul, Christ and John all tell us that He rewards everyone when He comes... Matt 16:27, 2 Tim 4:1, Rev 22:12? -----If Paul directly called the event" the resurrection of the dead"... 1 Cor 15:42-54... which is what he didn't want us ignorant about in 1 Thess 4:13-18... why does the name need to be changed to "rapture"? The resurrection of the dead shows that the dead return with Christ 1 Thess 4:14 and get their physical bodies back from the graves...for the "rise first"... vs 16... Paul directly states that these physical bodies do not go to heaven... 1 Cor 15:42-54...see vs. 50? -----Why do the dead get their physical bodies returned to them... 1 Thess 4:15-16, if they are going back to heaven for 7 years... instead of ruling and reigning with Christ on a physical Earth?
@@RandyRoth-mo3lz I'm not pre-trib...I never said I was. I'm not even perfectly clear on what dispensationalism is. I simply study the Bible, if I'm listening to someone teach and I can't make what they are teaching match what I see the Bible saying, I move on. I think you're preaching to the choir.
@@BrknVeel Thank you for having patience with this person. I think he didn’t understand what you were saying. God bless you, and I praise God for you coming out of that disgusting cult which is masonry. A good friend of mine in his early 20’s got up to the 32nd degree, and he got cancer and died before he was 23 years old. Thankfully I believe he repented before he died and turned to Christ, but it is truly a brotherhood of Satan.
Presuppositions are hard to abandon sometimes. It was for me. I just believed what I was “taught” by my pretrib teachers and pastors. When I read the Bible there were so many things that didn’t match up or make sense. I finally became a Berean by doing Bible studies on my own. At about the same time I read a book by Marvin Rosenthal called “The Prewrath Rapture”. That book made so much sense based on my own studies but my pastor warned me not to take it to heart…so I didnt. Then I read a book my Jacob Prasch called “Shadow of the Beast. He had the same prewrath proofs and used the Bible to show them. I realized just how much preconceived notions that I was taught before. I studied the history of the pretrib ideas. I saw the deception. The whole Bible came alive for me again in a bright new way. I pray that you carefully review your eschatology. Make sure it lines up with actual scripture. I was once told that whole chapters of the gospels were written just for the Jews, yet these same people would quote from the same chapters to try to prove their pretrib theology! Be a Berean. Look at Daniel, Joel, Zechariah, Isaiah, and Revelation like you were starting over. Like you know nothing except what the Holy Spirit wants you to learn. God Bless!
If "rapture" is the term used for "snatching up of true believers to meet the Lord in the clouds".... and the Greek term is harpazo.... used 13 times in Scripture... So you must be suggesting that when Paul was taken (harpazo) by the the Romans and hauled off to prison... acts 23:10... He really was just meeting Jesus in the clouds....Right? You are changing a VERB into a NOUN.... Peter tells us that unlearned men.... those who don't know the difference between a verb and a noun... twist what Paul teaches on this matter, as they do all of Scripture, and then he calls them "wicked" and tells us not to fall from our own steadfastness... 2 Peter 3:10-18. The fact is that Paul already DIRCTLY called the event "the resurrection of the dead'... 1Cor 15:42-54... which is what he didn't want us ignorant about in 1 Thess 4:13-18. This was a big deal to Paul.... for the Sadducees taught that there was no resurrection of the dead... Acts 23:8.... and thus the reason people were sorrowful ... 1 Thess 4;13... and why we are to "comfort one another with these words'.... that we are "forevermore with the Lord". The resurrection of the dead does not occur until the heavens are destroyed with a great noise... Job 14:12, 2 Peter 3;10-18, Matt 24:35,36, Mark 13:31,32. Those martyred for not taking the mark are resurrected at the first resurrection...Rev 20:4-6.
@@RandyRoth-mo3lz Exactly, your interpretation is just to logical for some people to except. Like, if those saints who had been beheaded for refusing the "Mark of the Beast" still have part in the 1st Resurrection at Christ 2nd coming, then it should follow and be true that the Great Tribulation happens before Christ returns to gather his saints which is the church. Further, we know from 1st Cor. 15:52 - the Resurrection happens just before any Rapture, which means all the world will be here for the Wrath of Satan. Read Revelation 7:14 "... these are they which came out of Great Tribulation...". You can't come out of something - unless you are in something first. I hope other will read this and your post, and understand.
I was the same way when I was a pre-trib. It's hard to view it from a different angle without picking up our "old" glasses, if you know what I mean. This might help: According to Paul, we know for a fact that the resurrection happens just before/or with the rapture. Given this nugget of knowledge, please read Revelation 19 and 20. The first resurrection is the resurrection of all of those who are in Christ. Paul makes this clear in 1 Corinthians 15.
The pre tribulation rapture has been sowed so deep by Satan into the minds and hearts of Christianity in name only. Regardless that the truth of Gods Word is shown to them for what has always been written, they continue to depart from the truth. Therefore God will give them over to the great and powerful delusion - then they will take the mark of the beast.
People forget……Christianity is fulfillment of a Jewish faith. The first church members were believing Jews and gentiles were grafted in. But prophecy teachers keep separating the Jews from the church when the church is actually believers. There is no difference between Jew and gentile. So prophecies made to the Jewish people include the sojourner who has adopted the Jewish messiah.
Paul makes that distinction in 1Corinth10:32, the church comes out of both Jews and gentiles, but the distinction remains for those who do not receive Christ, Jews(unto whom God gave His oracles Rom 3:2), and gentiles where were not of the commonwealth of God. Gods program for the end times always separates Jews and gentiles, with the Church under the headship of Christ.
@@ab3585 yes, but ironically the NT book most directly pointed at gentiles (Romans 9-11) is where pre-tribbers pull the seperation of Israel in the end times from. Then Hebrews the book most directly pointed to the jews in the NT is the book that most clearly shows the connection of the old and new testemant and How God has always been working towards 1 goal.
i see no harm in rejecting the idea of a pre or mid tribulation rapture. if wrong what a pleasant surprise that will be! but i see great harm in believing in a pre or mid trib rapture and being unprepared if wrong. that is a terrifying scenario.
God wiping out a city in His wrath is very different than a great tribulation period. The last trumpet is the 7th Trumpet is the 7 bowls of wrath, earn God comes and wipes out the wicked and establishes His reign. Which is the very Trumpet Paul says will herald the return of Christ, the resurrection and the rapture.
@@cryptojihadi265 "The last trumpet is the 7th Trumpet is the 7 bowls of wrath, earn God comes and wipes out the wicked and establishes His reign." Demonstrate that. Also, demonstrate that people are getting married in Revelation 19.
As a new Christian 30 yrs ago, i began reading the Bible for myself. Without any preconcieved ideas, or any outside influence from Bible teachers or historians, or authors, or speakers, teachers, or preachers...i came to the conclusion that the what i was reading in the Bible explicantly indicates a post-trib rapture. I have never let any outside source influence my thinking, as Scripture is sufficient.
Two reasons why I cannot be convinced to break away from pre trib - Jesus would not require his bride to endure beheading before the marriage supper and the antichrist cannot come until the Holy Spirit is withdrawn with the church, ie. the rapture.
the martyred apostles were part of the Bride. the Christians murdered for entertainment in from of jeering crowds in Roman Coliseum were part of the Bride.
I’m fairly new to reading the Bible. One thing though that bothered me is this obsession with the rapture from preTrib believers. It’s in your face every time you turn around. Knowing that deception is the #1 thing we’re warned of, I began thinking what would Satan prefer we believe? I also kept questioning certain preTrib arguments like THE DAY of the Lord being 7 yrs, that’s it’s the entire time of God’s wrath, the LAST trump apparently isn’t really the LAST trump, the falling away and the man of lawlessness needing to be revealed first, yet that’s ignored, now some say the apostasy IS the rapture. If the rapture removes the wheat from the earth, why did the Lord say that the wheat and tares grow together until the harvest? (Which is at the end of the age Matt 13:39) Also those martyred in Rev 7:9 will not be among those that are alive and remain, they’ll be among those dead in Christ, so wouldn’t they need to rise first? I wanted to believe in preTrib. I just couldn’t make it work without a lot of “he didn’t really mean that” type of justifications. I pray that all prepare their minds and hearts.
I TOTALLY disagree with your opening salvo. I'm not a bettin' man, but I would wager that there are as many "POST-trib" videos as there are PRE-trib, and THIS I can say with certainty, that the PRE-trib videos don't _"go after"_ those who align with a POST position, but w/o fail, the POST folks here on YT seemingly have it in for those who believe the PRE-trib rapture. I don't see them going after mid-trib, pre-wrath, Preterists, Amill, etc. And forgive me, but for you to inject some line about deception & what would Satan want us to believe doesn't qualify for an argument one way or the other. You go on to say, _"I wanted to believe in preTrib. I just couldn’t make it work..."_ to which I say... We're not to make *ANY* position "WORK" or try to "make it work". Read the text with a consistent, literal hermeneutic that doesn't discard the audience, the context, who spoke it, etc... And you close with, _"I pray that all prepare their minds and hearts"_ and I couldn't agree more...prepare for *JESUS,* not the tribulation. If you're able to put up one passage...yea one VERSE that tells us *WHY* the church would have to undergo ANY of the tribulation, I'll capitulate. The truth of the matter is, there are *S E V E R A L* passages that give us not only *WHY* the tribulation will be here, but the *PEOPLE* it's aimed at, and NONE of them include the church. none.
i see no harm in rejecting the idea of a pre or mid tribulation rapture. if wrong what a pleasant surprise that will be! but i see GREAT harm in believing in a pre or mid trib rapture and being unprepared if wrong. that is a terrifying scenario.
@@Kman. if you are wrong and there is no pre-trib rapture but you have been telling people there will be one, you could hurt a lot of people because they did not prepare. and if you are wrong will you feed and shelter my family? no. there is no way you can blame people for getting a little irritated.
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies. September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle. I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth.
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies. September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle. I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth.
That's what we're all hoping for, but that's not necessarily the way it will be. Christians have been persecuted since Christ's resurrection, & will be until He destroys evil. God's WRATH is for the destruction of the wicked, not His saints. The bible says Christians will face many tribulations/persecutions until then. Christ's disciples were martyred & Christians have been ever since via the works of satan, which is different than God's WRATH which is the destruction of the wicked.
To suggest that Scripture offers a rapture, is to ignore what Jesus said. First...Jesus warns us about the deception over this issue in verse 4... Matt 24;3,4 and then directly tells us that He comes after the tribulation... vs 29-31. Then He declares that the heavens will be destroyed ..vs 35-42..and of THAT DAY... no man knows the day or the hour.. but it will be as the days of Noah and one person will be taken and the other person left. He was referencing Job 14:12... which states "man dies and does not rise again until the heavens are destroyed. This first notes the event Scripture calls "the resurrection of the dead". Peter later quotes Jesus and Job and states that Jesus comes like a thief in the night when the heavens are destroyed... 2 Peter 3:10.... as Christ also points out that He comes like a thief...Matt 24:43- The concept of a rapture was created to suggest that Jesus returns 7 years prior to the heavens being destroyed. to make this suggestion is to remove the element of surprise declared when the heavens will be destroyed and bump it up 7 years... thus creating a countdown to when the heavens would be destroyed...Now suggesting that Scripture is mistaken that the element of surprise falls when it says it does... when the heavens are destroyed with a great noise... 2 Peter 3:10. This prior event of a rapture does not exist in Scripture... Ever notice that the rapturists love to suggest that 'no man knows the day our the our of their conjured rapture", when Christ told us that no man knows the day or the hour of when the heavens are destroyed? Paul directly calls the event "the resurrection of the dead"... 1 Cor 15:42-55, which is what he didn't' want us ignorant about in 1 Thess 4;13-18... not the "rapture". The lie of the rapturist tells us that Paul revealed this brand new mystery of a rapture... citing 1 Cor 15:51,52... and ignoring the fact that Paul directly called the event "the resurrection of the dead"... 9 verses prior and is revealing the mystery of how people are changed at the event he directly calls the resurrection of the dead.... Why is it SO IMPORTANT to change the name? The resurrection of the dead is presented throughout Scripture: Job 14:12, John 11, Heb 6;1,2, Rev 20;4-6 The reason the rapturist must change the the name is so that they can deceive and be deceived. The term "the resurrection of the dead" maintains the focus on the dead", whereas the new fangled term "rapture" redirects the focus to the living. The art of deception, as any good magician knows, is redirection. Every argument for a rapture is birthed out of deception
I lean towards the rapture doctrine……I also pray to strengthen my faith if it is not…….what I don’t care for is the condescending attitude towards those brothers/sisters that do believe in a rapture.
I know what you mean about that, but there was no condescension in this discussion here. They did a good job presenting the pre-tribulation rapture beliefs and then analyzing them with scripture
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies. September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle. I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth.
Jesus said he will raise us up on the Last Day, not 7 or 3.5 years prior. And he can certainly protect his elect if he is pouring out wrath on his enemies. Remember Psalm 91. Amen?
I grew up believing the pre-trib. Then about 1-2 years ago, I was 50 at the time, I read the book of Revelation. My eyes were open and I realized that it says Jesus is going to take the dead in Christ first and then the believers at the seventh trumpet. I realized it’s very arrogant of us to believe that believers aren’t going to have to go through the tribulation. God’s people had to go through the 10 plagues in Egypt, what would make us any different 🤷♀️
The Dead Are Raised First [1 Thess 4:15] We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have died. Therefore, the Rapture cannot take place before the dead are raised. The Bible tells us WHEN the dead are raised [1 Cor 15:52] "at the Last Trumpet". Also, we are told this takes place on "the Last Day" [John 11:24, 6:39, 6:40, 6:44, 6:54,12:48]. Finally, we are also told this takes place after the tribulation [Matt 24:29, Mark 13:34]. Also, "saints" in Jude 1:14 and 1 Thess 3:13, is a reference to "angels" (holy ones - Strong's G40 Hagios) - not human saints, but "angels" are also called "saints" or "holy ones" (Deut 33:2, Ps 68:17). The Rapture cannot take place before the dead are raised - the dead shall rise first. Therefore you cannot have a Rapture (of the living believers) until the dead are raised first, placing the timing of the Rapture after the dead are raised, at the Last Trumpet, on the Last Day, after the tribulation...just like the Bible explains it. We must not contradict these Scriptures as so many have done. We need to embrace and understand these plain statements from the Bible. Please share this with everyone. With thanks to Jesus our Savior. Amen.
@gospeltrax2513 - Looks like you are confused on what angels are, and also the "Last Day". In both Jude an 1Thess. it says God comes with his saints not angels. Show me where the bible says saints can be angels of the Lord, it doesn't. When the bible says He will come with his saints it is always talking about his second coming, and since we are coming with Him, then we must have to be in heaven with God already. (Raptured). You are confused between last day resurrection of old testament saints and new testament saints. New testament saints are resurrected at the rapture before the tribulation(we are his bride) and old testament saints are resurrected after the tribulation. You obviously can't discern CONTEXT, please learn how to comprehend context. If you can do this you will definitely believe the pre-trib rapture. Once you learn how to understand the context of scripture; read Revelation chapter 5 and 2Thess. 2:1-8 especially verse 5-8. God Bless,
Jesus said he went to prepare a place for us, and would return again to receive us unto himself, so that we may be where he is NOW, in Heaven.*(when we shall be caught up)* That can't happen when He returns and His feet stand upon the mount of Olives.(second coming) because we know he will then reign on Earth. So what of the place he has prepared for us? "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." -Revelation 3:10 *John 14:3 * 1 thessalonians 4:17
We experience the tribulation, the persecution & wrath of the Anti Christ but we are not subject to the wrath of God which is the Day of the Lord which occurs when cosmic catastrophes occur. We will not experience that.
@thepasswordisJesus - Context! Jesus was speaking those words to His disciples. In the Olivette Discourse, I could find no statement from our Lord that said "and all who believe in Me". The use of this particular passage as being applicable to everyone Born Again has always been a problem for me because I know I am not one of those who was sitting with Jesus when He made the reference to "in My Father's house....". If there is another Scripture that promises Believers the same thing, I would love to see it. That would answer a burning question I have had for years.
Because the new Jerusalem with come down from heaven with homes prepared for us. Read un Revelation about how God's city will come down from heaven to the new earth. Praise him for he will the heavens and the earth new.
@@Khulismonica mat 25, the bride goes to the marrige chamber at the rapture, rev 19 the bride becomes the wife and the wedding supper is completed in heaven. the new jerusalem comes many years later.
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies. September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle. I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth.
I don’t know man, whenever it comes to these discussions I always wonder if it matters to my salvation when (or if) the rapture will happen. What benefit am I missing that comes with knowing all of this stuff? To me, Jesus coming back and defeating all evil, sin and death seems to be where our hope and faith should lie not how, when and where things will happen.
In 2nd Thessalonians 2:10-12 warns of a God sent delusion that will be brought upon those who don't have a "love for the truth". The Truth that matters here is the very same subject matter of 2nd Thessalonians - which is what must happen just before Christ return. Chapter 1 gives a visual description of what Christ return will look like. It should form a picture in your mind. Than the first 4 verses of Chapter 2 tells of 2 events that must occur before Christ will gather his people to himself, so we will NOT be deceived by Satan's return and his declaring himself as God. God is going to test our faith and also our knowledge of the Truth, which is in his Word. Pretribulationalist can very easily fall victim when Satan comes.
@@MorrisonJames Are you saying people who believe in the pre-trib are not Christians? I’d believe in faith in Christ alone for salvation, believe in His divinity and Him living a sinless life and dying for my sins but all that is invalidated by a belief in pre-trib? Really???
I don't believe it matters for salvation. However, if were a post-tribber or a pre-wrather I would be shopping for bomb shelter (nuclear war) these days. Pre-wrath negates 2 Thes 2:3. The AC is revealed when he confirms the peace treaty. I don't think the pre-tribbers are right about 1 Thes 4:13-17 either. I think that is the second coming with the one and only resurrection (1 Cor 15:52, John 6:39-54, 11:24, Rev 20:4-6). Luke 17:22-37 is the pre-trib (eating, drinking, etc., Matt 24:39 oblivous , unaware etc.) rapture without a resurrection (Luke 17:37). There is a flash of light and dead bodies. We leave our flesh on earth.
The most important point about a correct understanding of when the Second Coming happens (called the Rapture), is in the spiritual, mental, and physical preparation to withstand all the schemes of the evil one and having done all, to stand victorious in your faith to never give up and turn away from your Lord. That is the express reason why Jesus said he wanted us to know ahead of time. The pretrib teaching leaves a believer vulnerable to not being prepared in the case of their theory not coming true like they have been taught. Then, considering many are teaching pretrib as a biblical absolute, will they realize their teachers were incorrect or will they believe the Bible is not true? All this at the exact time when they will realize they may have to die for their faith. Some even believe when pretribbers see the Abomination of Desolation, many at that time will turn away from the faith fulfilling the great falling away.
@@seasquawker pretrib already have an antichrist spirit..... After Christ warns, "take heed that no man deceive you..." Matt 24:4, He warns of many antichrists and then directly states that He comes after the tribulation.... vs 29-31. To teach the opposite of Christ (antichrist) and suggest a rapture prior to tribulation requires Scripture that would directly state the opposite of Christ.... otherwise the person has rejected Christ for the doctrines of man/devils. Christ tells us that those who have no mindset for tribulation and persecution, are "stony soil" believers, and when it comes... "the will immediately stumble". The pretrib is the breeding grounds for the stony soil. Paul tells us that the falling away is in context with the man of perdition revealed.... 2 Thess 2:1-3. If you have no mindset for tribulation and persecution, and you value a fabled rapture over the Word's of Christ.... a state of delusion is bound to occur. God Himself puts a strong delusion over those who do not love the truth....vs 10-12
@@seasquawker I believe in the PRE-TRIBULATION Rapture, but I do not have any ISSUES with ANY of my Brothers and Sisters in the Lord who BELIEVE in the MID-TRIBULATION Rapture. See as Brothers and Sisters in the Lord we LOVE Jesus with ALL our HEART, with ALL our MIND and with ALL our SOUL and NOTHING not ONE THING should SEPARATE us from the LOVE of God which is in Christ Jesus.
@@natureocean9466 absolutely.... people have exchanged believing Jesus for believing man.... No Scripture even remotely offers a rapture prior to tribulation.
@@Pre-Tribulation .... so being chased, tortured and put to death is what we will face as followers of christ? Well... if that's what you believe according to scriptures, it is the tribulation. Now.. if God's sends "plagues" like he did in Egypt and that he wants to protect us from that He will. But we are surely going to experiment some horrible stuff (which defines the time of tribulation describe in the bible). You have many brothers and sisters in christ being crucified today in afghanistan for exemple. That's Tribulation Jesus was speaking about. So be prepared to face that. it's better to be prepared to die for Christ that to live peacefully (nobody has to be prepared for a living a nice life and nice death.. but being prepared for an horrible life and excruciating death? For that, you should prepare.)
Many are blind to God's Holy Word and do not see the truth , but the marriage of the Lamb know as the rapture is very true , we who are saved will be caught up to join the lord in the air and the Christians left behind who are not saved will be left behind going through the Tribulation.. How could anyone miss this?.?.?.?.?.
@@user-ru9mv9vh4u Pre Trib Rapture. Luke chapter 21 verses 27 and 28 Jesus is coming In A Cloud the Rapture. In Revelation chapter 1 verses 7 Jesus is coming With the Clouds when he comes back to the Mt of Olive the second coming KJV.
I wonder if pan-mill falls under the foolish virgins as well..... The foolish virgins are told, "I know you not"...Matt 25:9.... and why not? .... Christ just finished telling them that He comes "after the tribulation... Matt 24:29-31. The foolish virgins didn't bring any extra batteries (vessel) for their flashlights (lamps), because they saw no need to prepare.... after all, His coming was imminent....Right?!?
@@RandyRoth-mo3lz lol why did you say "vessel" instead of oil? And why did you bring up batteries and flashlights? I highly highly doubt that someone who is undogmatic about the Millennium is Damned because of that. I think it's as obvious as the sun in the sky that the millennium hasn't happened yet!! Lol gosh. But I think humans are allowed to be dumb as a sock full of sticks and still be saved if they have Faith in Jesus.
@@RandyRoth-mo3lz I hope you're joking. Just because someone isn't caught up with foolishly trying to pedal off their eschatology, whether it's correct or not , has nothing to do with being prepared for eternity. You could die in ten minutes. What good did your eschatology and the effort time you put in help you. Did it it further the kingdom of God? Sermon over lol
Jonathan Cahn is a pan tribulationalist. You don't have a place to firmly place your feet. It's as Days of Noah and Days of Lot. It's escape, then judgment.
I am post-trib pre-wrath. The only wrath we are promised to be delivered from is "orge" wrath in the Greek. The "orge" wrath is only found in a post-trib context in Revelation.
Orge is defined as forever burning with fire and brimstone... Rev 14:10... the vials are wrath: thumos.... God's anger. Orge is throughout the New testament.... John 3:35, 1 Thess 5:9,10. Pre-wrath is birthed out of pretrib.... over the false notion of what wrath we are not appointed to. Pre-wrath maintains the false notion of the pretrib that there is a separation of "rapture" and "second coming".... both terms conjured by the pretrib. Paul calls the event "the resurrection of the dead".. 1 Cor 15;42-55.. which is what Paul didn't want us ignorant about in 1 Thess 4:13-18. the term "rapture" was created for the purpose of deceit... to draw the focus off of what is actually written. The resurrection of the dead focuses on the dead, while the rapture focuses on the living. If we can get people to ignore the fact that the dead are resurrected... come back to life, then we can create multiple returns. If there were a resurrection of the dead prior to the end... then a bunch of dead people who return with Christ... 1 Thess 4;14 and RISE FIRST... are somehow mysteriously running around earth without Christ who is still waiting to return so that He can rule and reign forevermore. Problem is that once people die... they are forevermore with the Lord... if they are His. The resurrection of the dead does not occur until the heavens are destroyed with a great noise.... Job 14;12, 2 Peter 3:10, Matt 24:35,36, Mark 13:31,32. Those martyred for not taking the mark are resurrected at the FIRST resurrection... Rev 20:4-6.
This is a HUGE problem for Christians in particular evangelical Christians. The prophecy about the land of Israel (physical land) took place before Christ arrived on the scene. After the Jews rejected Christ and His death burial and ressurection the old covemant was overwith. The Zionists pushing this theology is EVIL! This evil is what is causing so much bloodshed in the middle east. Today...if you don't accept Christ as Lord and Savior you are not saved...I don't care if king David himself was your great great etc grand daddy! I would say I am mote of an amellinalist excepy I don't believe in a literal thousand year reign. Anyway...I agree with your sentiment.
I was a pretribber for 42 years, although I considered it a theory and not a biblical absolute (like so many do today). When I discovered the prewrath rapture (2 years ago), I was amazed at how much information I already had that is still correct in the prewrath position. I would love to speak to you in a layman's language (non-technical) about the amazing layout of the prewrath timeline. It makes everything else totally clear like crystal.
Prewrathers are generally disgruntled pretribbers... it is because of the "information" they think they already have and assimilate that into their new view. Here is the kink in that thinking..... 2 Peter 3:10-18... After Peter tells us that Christ comes like a thief in the night when the heavens are destroyed with a great noise, he goes on to state that unlearned individuals twist Paul's teaching on the matter, as they do all of Scripture, and then he calls them 'wicked" and tells us not to fall from our own steadfastness. You now have a problem.... you know that there is one major view of eschatology claimed to have been taken from Paul's teaching alone.... the pretrib. The problem lies in the fact that the Word of God tells us that they twist ALL of Scripture. Therefore, the foundations that you think that you have for the prewrath aren't as 'clear like crystal" as you may think! Even the name "prewrath" comes from the pretrib deceit that suggests that we are not appointed to God's eternal wrath (orge).... defined by Scripture as "forever burning with fire and brimstone.... Rev 14:10. God's temporal anger/wrath.... thumos is what's found in the judgments of Revelation. David experienced God's temporal wrath when he sinned with Bathsheba, but not His eternal wrath. Again... the foundations of the pretrib are founded in John Nelson Darby's private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20) of Daniel's 70th week.... an interpretation that was conjured up prior to the time of the Pony Express. Horseback was the fastest mode of transportation when Daniel sealed up the book... Dan12:4... until the time of the end with mass transportation and the internet. History shows that the sacrifices and offerings ended in the middle of a 7 year war known as the Roman-Jewish war or Jewish Uprising... AD 66 to AD 73... ending with the fall of Masada. In the middle of that week the temple was destroyed and the Sacrifices and offerings ended... Yet.... this is STILL the foundation of the prewrath view. Daniel's 70th week has no place in the future.... and the idea of a 7 year tribulation is all pretrib. If you would like to speak face to face on the matter via zoom.... you can look me up on my channel under the 'about' tab.
We are dwelling in Heaven BEFORE the saints even show up, Revelation 13:6. In Revelation 20:4, the ones sitting on thrones, DON'T GET A RESURRECTION! They follow Days of Noah and Days of Lot about End Times and both had an ESCAPE method and then judgment. The saints show up during last 3.5 years of the Tribulation.
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies. September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle. I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth. GOD BLESS
@@youhannabarrechit5649 I’ll check back to see if you’re here around 11/12. If you are then by your definition either you’re not a Christian or a false prophet.
Terrific content, guys ! Right up my alley ! The most important thing I say to those who sit under me in this teaching is . . . do the research for yourself, so that you will OWN what you believe. Too many believing brethren, take the word of a biased preacher as to what the Bible says (or doesn't say) regarding this, most important, subject. I take to heart . . . 'See to it that you are NOT deceived !' Those believers who might be deceived by contradictory occurrences to what they were led to believe, are subject to be those who 'fall away' ! THAT is what is subject to your salvation ! Your end-times predictions, in themselves, are NOT issues of salvation ! The 'shortening of days, during the Great Tribulation' promise is what draws me to adopt the 'Pre-Wrath' theology. Thank you for clarification.
Since the New Covenant is “everlasting” in Hebrews 13:20, how is the Church Age going to end before the Second Coming of Christ? Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it. The Capitol "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 of this passage proves at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the people of God. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. "It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view." The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197. The gathering of the Church is described at the end of 1 Thess. Chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5. The word “But” in the first verse of chapter 5 connects the two chapters, and the words “we” and “sleep” in verse 10 of chapter 5 prove the two chapters are connected.
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies. September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle. I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth.
@SpotterVideo you wrongly assume the covenant in Jeremiah was fulfilled already. The church is the newTESTAMENT church not covenant. A covenant is not the same thing as a testament. The covenant is for Israel not the church
@@SpotterVideo(2 Corinthians 3:6 KJV) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. It says testament not covenant. They are different
@@robcrobert The Greek word Paul used in 2 Cor. 3:6 is "diatheke". It is the same Greek word translated as "covenant" in the passage below. Paul also spoke of the "two covenants" in Gal. 4:24-31. Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (KJV)
Exactly. There are so many other scriptures that line up with a pre tribulation view. The problem I have with people trying to debunk a pre tribulation rapture is they usually misrepresent the views of a pre tribulation rapture.
Most of those who believe the Pretrib doctrine do not know why modern Dispensational Theology needs a Pretrib removal of the Church. They are trying to get the Church off the planet so that God can go back and deal with modern Jews under the Old Covenant system. What is wrong with this idea? Since the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Heb. 13:20, why would anyone think God is going back to the Old Covenant now made "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13? Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it. Who is really teaching “Replacement Theology” ? (Did God fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary? Matthew 26:28, John 19:30) The advocates of modern Dispensational Theology often accuse others of promoting “Replacement Theology”, or some may even say “Antisemitism”. What does the Bible say about their accusations? 1. Who is replacing Christ as the seed of Abraham through which all the families of the Earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3, with Abraham’s modern descendants? (See Galatians 3:8) 2. Who is replacing the one people of God in John 10:16, with two peoples of God ? 3. Who is replacing the one seed (Christ) in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds? 4. Who is replacing the children of the promise in Romans 9:8, with the children of the flesh? 5. Who is replacing the faithful “remnant” of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5, with the Baal worshipers? 6. Who is replacing the word "so" in Romans 11:26, with the word "then"? 7. Who is attempting to replace the Church made up of all races of people, with one made up only of Gentiles? Why did Peter address the crowd as “all the house of Israel” in Acts 2:36, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ on the Day of Pentecost? 8. Based on Hebrews 9:15, the New Covenant cannot be separated from the Messiah’s death. Is the covenant in Daniel 9:27 connected to the Messiah’s death in Daniel 9:26. Is the covenant with the “many” in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the “many” in Matthew 26:28? If it is, some have replaced the New Covenant in Daniel 9:27 with a future covenant made by an antichrist not found in Daniel chapter 9. (See the 1599 Geneva Bible used by the Pilgrims.) 9. Those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology often accuse others of teaching “Replacement Theology”, but are they the masters of it? Are they promoting a form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race? (See “genealogies” in Titus 3:9) Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis? 10. Watch the TH-cam video “Genesis of Dispensational Theology” to see the origin of this man-made doctrine, which is less than 200 years old. It was brought to the United States about the time of the Civil War by John Nelson Darby. The doctrine was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and then spread through much of the modern Church. Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas Texas was created in part to promote John Darby’s Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology. Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church:
“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.” Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107. Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.” Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323. John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated… "...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.” John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are there two peoples of God in John 10:16? (See also 1 John 2:22-23, 2 John 1:7-11.) What is the land promise to the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16? Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, is this earth “eternal”? Will it be replaced by a new earth? Based on Acts 2:36, and Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and James 1:1-3, can faithful Israel and the Church be separated into two different groups? Who is the New Covenant promised to in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and Hebrews 8:6-13? Will modern Orthodox Jews ever be saved outside of the New Covenant Church?
@@Wallflower28 how much time do you have. If you don't understand that God has a separate plan for the church and a separate plan for Israel then you won't understand a pre tribulation rapture. You have to go back to Old Testament prophecies and work your way forward. If you understand that God has a future for Israel then you have a start. The main reason for the tribulation is for the national salvation of Israel. Have you read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1Corinthians 15:50-58? Understand that Matthew 24 and 25 is not about the rapture as many people think. It is about what will happen to Israel during the tribulation. It has nothing to do with the church. It is a future prophecy for Israel. Matthew 23:37-38. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see me no more till you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." This is when Israel finally realizes that Jesus is the Messiah that they have been waiting for. Revelation 3:10. Because you have kept my command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Revelation 1:19-20. Therefore, write these things which you have seen and the things which are and the things which will take place after this. The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the seven angels of the seven churches and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches. This is what the angel was showing John that the seven churches were in heaven. How can the seven churches be in heaven if the church, all believers, is going to be in the tribulation? The problem for people who try to debunk the pre tribulation rapture is that they don't understand the harmony of scripture. It is like putting a puzzle together. Another problem is that people want to believe that the church has replaced Israel which is called replacement theology. God has given many promises to Israel and if he doesn't fulfill all those promises then that would make him a liar which he cannot do because God cannot lie. Romans 11:25-26. For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved. This does not mean that every Jew will be saved. It means that all Jews who have said what Matthew 23:38 says: You shall see me no more till you say, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. This will be the national salvation of Israel. Jeremiah 30:7. Alas! For that day is great, so that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble. This again is a future prophecy for Israel. Who is Jacob? Israel. You need to understand the Old Testament prophets more. Zechariah 13:8. And it shall come to pass in all the land, says the Lord, that two thirds in it shall be cut off and die, but one third shall be left in it. Again, this is an Old Testament prophecy for Israel. Zechariah 14 is about the day of the Lord and what will happen to Israel during the tribulation. Read it for yourself. Why is it that there are so many prophecies about Israel during the tribulation and none about the church. Because the church will be in heaven. The tribulation is mainly for the national salvation of Israel. It is also about the judgment for an unbelieving world. What you need to understand is the purpose for the tribulation.
@@gregmatz3693 Mid trib is correct. Daniel says it, Paul says it, and Jesus says it, and John says it. Daniel 12:1 is parallel to Matthew 24:21. 1 Corinthians 15:52 is parallel to Revelation 11:12. 1 Thessalonians 4:15 & 17 parallel to Matthew 24:13. And 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is parallel to Matthew 24:15 We go up when the prophets go up. Nowhere in the Bible does it say we go up beforehand. If we went up beforehand we would never provoke the Jewish people to jealousy. After all they choose a false Messiah right from the start. Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall SALVATION is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies. September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle. I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth. GOD BLESS
I like how much Dr. Kurschner respects other that doesn't share the same doctrine of rapture and end times. I like also Thomas Ice who respects people who have different view. That's very intelligent way to handle things. They never say that they can''t change their views when they see they are wrong. Thank you for posting this episode. Is there an episode with Thomas Ice?
I would say the restrainer is primarily the Holy Spirit in the church. The AC won't get a foothold with the church on earth. The Holy Spirit will still be working on the earth after the rapture (Luke 17:22-37 no resurrection in verse 37) which explains all the martyrs (Rev 6:9-11). 1 Thes 4:13-17, Matt 24:29-31 is the second coming with the one and only resurrection (1 Cor 15:52, John 6:39-54, 11:24, Rev 20:4-6) on the last trump, last day (singular).
Lord bless,good question. How is God (Holy Spirit) ever "removed" from any place if He is omni-present 24/7?. If the church goes up, saints still have the HS. But That doesn't mean He is not going to be in the world.
makes me think the restrainer is satan himself. He doesnt want all of this to happen. In Revelation we read that he is eventually thrown out of heaven. Depends who the "he" is in 2 Thessalonians 2 will determine the context of that passage. Some versions say "he" others say "He"
I too had some serious doubts years ago myself about my pre-trib upbringing and was sick at home for a few days and took that time to study this in depth with just the Bible alone and researching all the key eschatological terms. After days of doing this I could not avoid the pre-trib position, it was like guardrails forcing me on that path. I tried but realized it takes a lot of gymnastics to twist one's way out of it or avoid it. Pre-trib is the biblical position. Sorry guys.
@@jaykrizzle thanks I really do. appreciate it. I find that some of the same style of non-pretrib interpretation is similar to the old earth creationists and calvinism: sounds very good, structured and detailed and so very convincing, yet ignoring the forest for the trees. I will admit pre-wrath is closer to the biblical position, way better than post-trib, but still falls short of obvious characteristics in the pertinent passages. Thank you again very much. Let's all just be ready for His coming, regardless!
I’m a YEC too. I’m interested in what the pre-trib is more straightforward with than you find the pre-wrath. Because for me if you swapped those two out, I could have said the same thing-there is only one position that doesn’t force the Bible into knots. What passages lead you to the opposite conclusion?
The 7 year tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel's dream. It's there to sift Israel, it's not for the church saved under the dispensation of grace. You are blending theologies together. This makes you look foolish. You all make a lot of words out of context.
Is the New Covenant found in Daniel chapter 9? Are we supposed to believe the angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant. Or, is the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28? The 1599 Geneva Bible is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Darby showed up on our shores. What was the earlier understanding of Daniel 9:27 found below in the notes of the 1599 Geneva Bible? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate. Daniel 9:27 And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles. (b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection. (c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them. ------------------------------------------------ During recent years many New Covenant scholars have examined Daniel chapter 9 from a New Covenant perspective. Did Christ fulfill the summary found in Daniel 9:24? Is it about the New Covenant fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary? Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (These two verses are quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34.) Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. The death of the Messiah is found in Daniel 9:26, and there are only two possible singular antecedents for the word “he” in the next verse. Those antecedents are either Christ or Titus, who was the prince of the people that destroyed the temple during 70 AD. Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Is the “he” in Daniel 9:27 the “Messiah”, or “the prince” of the people that destroyed the city and the sanctuary in verse 26? If we used “the people of the prince” it would not be a singular “he”. Does the author of the Book of Hebrews connect the New Covenant with the Messiah’s death found in Daniel 9:26, in the verse below? Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. (NKJV) Verse 26 also says the Messiah would be cut off “after” the 69 weeks. If I agree to paint your house “after” 69 weeks, it will not be painted until the 70th week, or after. Is there a “gap” of almost 2,000 years between the 69th week and the 70th week, or was it fulfilled during the first century when the Gospel was preached “first” to the Jews? We know there is a time period when the Gospel was taken “first” to the Jews, as the Apostle Paul said in the verse below. Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Can we find a time period of about seven years when the Gospel was taken “first” to Daniel’s people during the first century? If we can, we have good evidence that the 70th week of Daniel has already been fulfilled. Did Christ command His disciples to take the Gospel only to Israel in the passage below? Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mat 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Is the time period when the Gospel was preached “first” (Rom. 1:16) to the Jews in the passage above, confirmed in the passage below? Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. In the passage above Luke confirms the fact that the Gospel of Christ was preached throughout the land of Israel after the baptism which John preached. Here again, we have a text which reveals a time period when the Gospel was taken “first” to the Jews, as Paul said in Romans 1:16. Bible scholars have looked at the number of Passover celebrations in the Gospels and have estimated Christ’s earthly ministry to have lasted about three and one half years. Was the Gospel taken “first” (Rom. 1:16) to the Jews for a period of about three and one half years during the period of time revealed in the Gospels? In Galatians 1:14-18 Paul reveals he did not go up to see Peter until about 3 years after his conversion. During that time the Gospel continued to be taken almost exclusively to Daniel's people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles. Read the recent book "The 70th Week of Daniel 9 DECODED" by David Wilcoxson for confirmation of the above.
The problem with pre-trib is they are dispensationalist. Basically God has different modes of salvation according to what era of time we are in. We are in the church age and thus under grace. Don't believe me research why they think the tribulation is for the Jews and why pre-trib'ers ignore Matt 24.
Did you guys ever realize if a newborn Christian would listen to your broadcast how much would he understand? Paul didn't speak like this with eloquent words, phrases etc. you guys do, why? Bring it down a level. Can you imagine Jesus would have talked like this? People would have scratched their heads and walked away. Guys, it is not a contest who knows more eloquent words, put yourselves in the shoes of newborn believers. Please 🙏
The following proves you are correct. Is the New Covenant found in Daniel chapter 9? Are we supposed to believe the angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant. Or, is the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28? The 1599 Geneva Bible is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Darby showed up on our shores. What was the earlier understanding of Daniel 9:27 found below in the notes of the 1599 Geneva Bible? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate. Daniel 9:27 And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles. (b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection. (c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them. ------------------------------------------------ During recent years many New Covenant scholars have examined Daniel chapter 9 from a New Covenant perspective. Did Christ fulfill the summary found in Daniel 9:24? Is it about the New Covenant fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary? Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (These two verses are quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34.) Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. The death of the Messiah is found in Daniel 9:26, and there are only two possible singular antecedents for the word “he” in the next verse. Those antecedents are either Christ or Titus, who was the prince of the people that destroyed the temple during 70 AD. Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Is the “he” in Daniel 9:27 the “Messiah”, or “the prince” of the people that destroyed the city and the sanctuary in verse 26? If we used “the people of the prince” it would not be a singular “he”. Does the author of the Book of Hebrews connect the New Covenant with the Messiah’s death found in Daniel 9:26, in the verse below? Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. (NKJV) Verse 26 also says the Messiah would be cut off “after” the 69 weeks. If I agree to paint your house “after” 69 weeks, it will not be painted until the 70th week, or after. Is there a “gap” of almost 2,000 years between the 69th week and the 70th week, or was it fulfilled during the first century when the Gospel was preached “first” to the Jews? We know there is a time period when the Gospel was taken “first” to the Jews, as the Apostle Paul said in the verse below. Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Can we find a time period of about seven years when the Gospel was taken “first” to Daniel’s people during the first century? If we can, we have good evidence that the 70th week of Daniel has already been fulfilled. Did Christ command His disciples to take the Gospel only to Israel in the passage below? Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mat 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Is the time period when the Gospel was preached “first” (Rom. 1:16) to the Jews in the passage above, confirmed in the passage below? Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. In the passage above Luke confirms the fact that the Gospel of Christ was preached throughout the land of Israel after the baptism which John preached. Here again, we have a text which reveals a time period when the Gospel was taken “first” to the Jews, as Paul said in Romans 1:16. Bible scholars have looked at the number of Passover celebrations in the Gospels and have estimated Christ’s earthly ministry to have lasted about three and one half years. Was the Gospel taken “first” (Rom. 1:16) to the Jews for a period of about three and one half years during the period of time revealed in the Gospels? In Galatians 1:14-18 Paul reveals he did not go up to see Peter until about 3 years after his conversion. During that time the Gospel continued to be taken almost exclusively to Daniel's people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles. Read the recent book "The 70th Week of Daniel 9 DECODED" by David Wilcoxson for confirmation of the above.
@@SpotterVideo Daniel is only concerned about His people, the Jews. The ew Covenant is not mentioned. Buried in tbe parenthetical 69th Week). He traces history accurately up the 69th week (Palm Sunday) snd picks it up i. The 70th week when Israel confirms a covenant with “ The Prince That Shall Come” ( the Antichrist) until the end of the age when The Son of Man receives the kingdom from the Ancient of Days. Why do you think Jesus referred to himself self as The Son of Man ? He validates Daniel. This kingdom shall have no end.
@@meggy8868 Based on the verse below, the Messiah's death in Daniel 9:26 cannot be separated from the New Covenant fulfilled by His blood. Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. There is no singular antecedent for an "antichrist" in Daniel chapter 9. In Romans 1:16 Paul said the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people the Jews. This time period is found in Matt. 10:5-7, and Acts 10:36-38, and Gal. 1:14-18. Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.
@@SpotterVideo Granted the Messiah is cut off . But we still don’t know about the New Covenant. Hinted at by Ezekiel 36.26. Palm Sunday is the acknowledgment of His Kingdom which must be held in abeyance. A rule of logic is no information no conclusion. It is the fallacy known as argument from Ignorance. What Daniel does include is amazing. The 4 coming world powers, even brief mention of the Greek Kingdom ruler, Cleopatra. Then in the 70th week blow by blow of the end of the age from AntiChrist to the reign of Son of Man, Jesus. The 69 th week no information. No Jew knew of the CHURCH until Paul revealed it, the “ mystery hidden from the Ages”. Good discussion :). However. Your argument is based on the assumption the New Covenant has to be included with Messiah “cut off “.
Really sad how many people reject the scripturally sound doctrine of the harpazo (rapture in Greek) occurring before the start of the 70th week. And in so doing, forfeit the Lord's intended hope (confident assurance ) tied to the pre-trib rapture. So many people completely misinterpret Matthew 24 and then use it as the basis for a flawed argument of a post-trib rapture. I challenge anyone who wants to be a Berean to dig deep and listen to Pastor Andy Woods' Rapture series from lessons 21-32. Literally 12 hours of deep biblical teaching on properly interpreting Matthew 24-25. Some are simply not willing to take off the blue shades they have worn all of their life, and consequently are spiritually unable to see the panorama of red that exists within the contextual background upon which the substance of Matt 24 -25 has been painted. But most folks are satisfied with a cursory misinterpretation and not willing to spend the time studying to find the treasure of Truth in the Word. Proverbs 18:13. Maranatha!!!
@@FaithfulFireRadio Sorry, don't mean to be unkind, but your response is so ridiculous as to barely even warrant a response. The idea that the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture came into existence in 1827 is utterly absurd. It is either in the Bible or is this not. Period. And it is.
You are correct. Also Matthew 24 is not the rapture. The wicked were taken away so that the Millennium could commence. Every time a hear a pastor mistakening the events in Matthew 24 as the rapture I know its time to change the channel.
@@user-sn5zs9qh4w What??? Noah was left behind on earth, the wicked were taken away by the flood. Man, I wonder how many other Scriptures you twist to fit a narrative.
@@jsamc You are correct. The rapture doesn't take place until after the tribulation right before the wrath of God, as it states in scripture. Finally a person who doesn't try to interpret scripture to make it fit their beliefs because scripture interprets itself.
@@meggy8868 exactly. Yet pre-wrath, mid-trib and post-trib all seem to argue that the tribulation period is the wrath of man. Jesus is the one unleashing these things on the earth. It isn't until the 6th seal is loosed that men acknowledge that the wrath of God is being poured out on them.
@@meggy8868 The question they should be asking is how the apostles would have gone about convincing Jewish people that Jesus had fulfilled messianic prophecies if they also followed this allegorical method
@@PeopleoftheFreeGift Doesn’t matter what men acknowledge, The Bible says that the tribulation begins with the first seal. The lamb’s wrath. Daniel says it will be. seven years. the first seal corresponds to Daniel’s “ Coming Prince” The man with a crown who comes to conquer. Jesus says the last half 31/2 years will be the toughest ( Matt 24) The book os seals sums it up. Fir the great day if his wrath us come “ Who is able to stand ?” None of it is pretty
Great conversation. I was taught the tier rapture theory. 3 raptures within the resurrection.7 resurrections in scripture. The Bride is raptured first. Yet carnal and others raptured later. I also have friends who teach those raptured our the tares. When I was pastoring in my mid 20s I taught pre wrath.
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies. September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle. I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth. GOD BLESS
Does it really make sense that we, the church, would be raptured before the tribulation saints and be up in heaven celebrating and feasting at the marriage supper of the Lamb while the tribulation saints are being persecuted, tortured and beheaded. I believe we, the church, are the tribulation saints!
He can be a little too technical but Kushner is on of the best pre-wrath and even pre-mill teachers. His work changed my mind on the rapture years ago. But my mind has since been changed on the millennium too.
In his new book, PRETRIB, page 90, Alan records “back-to-back rapture and wrath - 2 Thes. 1:6-10.” But the second coming could also be included since Jesus comes in flaming fire. But if the rapture and second coming are back-to-back, how could there be several months between them? I assume the “rest” in 2 Thes. 1:7 is code for rapture, which Jesus has happening when He comes in flaming fire. So how could there be a span of several months between the rapture and second coming to earth will all His saints if the “rapture and second coming are back-to-back? I like the prewrath narrative, but there are things I'm not understanding.
post tribulation ---> doctrinal impossibility after 2030 ---> temporal impossibility also 2030 - 7 years ---> summer 2023 I send you more explanations, read them, you will understand... follow my comment thread
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies. September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle. I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth. GOD BLESS
I thought the anti-Christ will not be revealed until the great restrainor is removed? If the great restrainor is the Holy Spirit which resides in his elect than there must be a pre-trib rapture
Actually, 2 Thess 2 says the opposite of that. If you read it carefully, you’ll see that the coming of our Lord, and our gathering together unto him (ie the rapture) will not happen until the antichrist is revealed first. He tells them to look for the coming of the man of lawlessness as a sign, just like Jesus did on the Mt of Olives. If we’re supposed to look for him as a sign, we can’t be gone before he appears, or Paul’s whole point is missed
If the Holy Spirit is removed then how do people get saved afterwards and if they do why don’t they get raptured out of here is as well. The Pre-Trib Theory has so many Logical Fallacies that most proponents never even consider.
The mistery is the restrainer. And Paul doesn't state that it is Holy Spirit. I agree with Jonathan Poland on the timeline found in 2 Thess I got some clue in the end of Revelation 12 - to beginning of 13. You see that the woman is removed first before the dragon got angry, then the beast is revealed. Isn't that similar with the removal of the restrainer and revealing of the lawless one?
2 Thess 2:6,7.... the restrainer is removed prior to the lawless one vs. 1-3.... "our gathering unto Him" does not happen until after the man of perdition is revealed.... therefore the order is: Restrainer removed, lawless one revealed, then our gathering unto Him. Paul directly warns us of those who teach that our "gathering unto Him..." is "at hand" (imminent)....vs 2.... Amazing, Paul warns us of his cult following!
No. The Restrainer by all accounts of correct study is Satan. It has always been false teaching that it is The Holy Spirit or the Church. IF??? The Restrainer is The Holy Spirit, The Church or Michael - God would have named them. They are ALWAYS named throughout all scripture. Research all the meanings of restrain, to restrain, restraint etc Satan IS restraining from unleashing his complete wrath upon Gods people - because it is not his time - his is the wild dog on the leash. God lets him off the leash when he is finally cast out of the heavens onto the earth which starts the great tribulation which is 3.5 years - not 7 years. This great tribulation start point when Satan is cast to the earth is the exact point that the man of sin becomes the son of perdition and reveals himself! God allows him to hunt, persecute and kill multitudes of true believers. The foreshadow of Satan's restraining and the permission he needs from God is found in Job.
I have another question. So what happens to you as a Christian if you enter the Tribulation but you get killed in the nuclear war (red horse) or you starve to death (pale horse) and you don't make it to the 5th seal. Because you have to get martyred during the Tribulation in order for it to count. Rev 6:9 says specifically says you have to be slain "because of the word of God" for your soul to go up under the altar, and to receive your white robe. So that means you have to survive the four horsemen with 2 billion killed under them (that's a lot of odds). Because if you look closely at the pale horse rider, it says death and hell follow him. Death is obvious, that means your body is physically dead on the planet. But Hell is not where Christians go when they get killed (they are supposed to go up under the altar). But if hell follows the people who are dying on the planet during the pale horse we have a serious problem for those who don't get martyred for Christ. Did anyone ever pick that up before now?!?! It suggests to me that the people on the earth when the Tribulation begins are not believers, because all of those killed by the four horsemen go to hell (not heaven). People don't convert until after the four horsemen. Then Satan starts to focus on them personally. That's why God seals 144,000 Jews to go throughout the world to preach the gospel. The reason why they are sealed is that they don't die as a result of God's wrath being poured out under the seal judgments. Anyone catching this yet?
@@ReLair88 There are no Christians (or believers) on the planet right after the rapture. There are also no Christians on the planet 90 days into the Tribulation when WW3 starts. Either that or God supernaturally changes the laws of physics during the nuclear world war. The bombs only kill the unbelievers and they don't harm the Christians. I don't believe God interrupts the laws of physics. The nuclear bombs will kill believers and unbelievers alike together at the same time. But if you take that stance, then you are saying that all those Christians are going to hell, because during the four horsemen, everyone who dies from those four judgments go to Hades (or hell). That would also contradict scripture. So full circle back to the obvious. There are no Christians on the planet when the Tribulation begins. It's not until after the 4 horsemen that people start dying for Christ. That means people converted during the 4 horsemen and now the Anti-Christ sees that and starts to behead them (5th seal).
Genesis is tough. It's hard to take it straight literal. Trees/vegetation sprouted on 3rd day, sun was fourth day, man sixth, but then again in chapter 2 God made man before any vegetation sprouted so God planted a garden for him,... do you not think it's tough? I'm still trying to figure out exactly how to read it myself.
@@rickjelley6347 you just blew my mind 🤯 I’ve never seen that before. I still believe in 7 days even if I’m confused about that 😳 because of Exodus 20:8-11 where it talks about the law for the sabbath day and says creation was in 6 days
@@rickjelley6347 im looking at it, and it seems to me that it’s talking about day 1, heavens and earth, day 3 grass herbs and trees and then day 6… sort of like a summary of what led to man. I don’t know because I’ve never seen it before 🤯
@@justindarnellfpv there are some intriguing good works that argue that Genesis 1 was written to oppose the mythological middle eastern gods - the Sun, moon, water gods (among others). They believed to be slave to those gods as well. In Genesis 1 God corrects this in saying that those gods don’t exist and that He and He alone created those “gods” (the sun, moon, stars, etc) and that we are not slaves, but stewards.
I don't see no secret get out of jail free card either really with what Jesus taught us he says he comes immediately after the tribulation and we're not supposed to fear tribulation or death really according to scripture
Believers have to listen to Jesus words first and foremost over any other teaching. Take the parable of the Wheat & Tares in Matthew 13:24-30 with Jesus explained in verses 36-49 "Let them both grow together until the harvest" The Harvest is "the end of the age or world for the KJV. Jesus is coming at the very end, even the very last day. See John 6:39-40,44&54 "at the last day" I will raise them up. These scripture verses I cited will not be preached by any pretrib pastor. This is not condescending, but simply an observation I have noticed over many year of attending many Baptist churches.
The return is Matthew 24:29-31. We see what happens at the return in Revelation 20:4. The Church Elders simply come down from Heaven to Earth to sit on thrones and power of JUDGMENT is given to them. The saints get a full resurrection because 100% of them were martyrs.
From your post I learned TWO things about you, and no disrespect, but just saying... *1* Using phraseology like "get out of jail free" tells me you're good @ hoisting up straw men. *2* Drafting 3 words from deep in a text ("after the tribulation") w/o providing context, tells me you're good @ contextomy.
@@Kman. sir the rapture we all agree that there is a rapture or a catching away of the saints we just disagree on the timing in other words but when I think of a pre-trib I think people just want to escape trouble and that's actually human nature but it's not scriptural Jesus said he was coming immediately after the tribulation tribulation and wrath are two different events and really we're not supposed to be fearful of tribulation or even death for for that matter if you really have the victory now in my Bible tells me that we're appointed unto tribulation yes tribulation is far the church the wrath of God is not and I don't see two different comings of Jesus Christ there's only one
@@shanemcguire5347 I'm out of town, but actually we *DON'T* all agree that there is a rapture, and the "POST" position is a great example of that. I don't see where the "POST" position can reconcile the following with scripture. *=====>* AT THE RAPTURE... *1* We go to heaven...where Christ is & has been since He ascended; *Acts 7:55,56* *2* The Bema Judgment takes place in HEAVEN; *Rom **14:10* & also *II Cor **5:10* *3* The marriage of the LAMB also takes place in heaven; *Rev 19:7* The 'ole "AFTER THE TRIBULATION" (as stated), are three words you're culling from a passage that has *ZERO* to do with the church. That was brought to your attention initially. For you to assume it DOES, you must make the case that the chapter deals with the church, & quite frankly, it can't. Also, a case *CANNOT* be made that the church is appointed unto *"THEE"* tribulation. Any & all verses you would want to cull from the bible that may _USE_ the word "tribulation", are disconnected from the argument, for we're NOT talking about troubles, trials, persecution, etc as Christians go thru life. Here again, you're wanting to rip verses from passages in an effort to find support for a narrative...that is *CONTEXTOMY* and it renders your argument invalid. That's also what you've done in wanting to use *Matt 24* where you found the words, "after the tribulation". The 7 year tribulation period will be the *WRATH* of God on full display, and *PTL,* the church won't be around for ANY of it~:) All for now. All the best to you in your search for truth, *MARANATHA!*
Being exempt from Gods wrath doesnt mean you wont be here for it. Also, Revelation tells us that we will be massacred, not raptured. Then when Jesus comes, we meet Him in the sky to come BACK with Him.
Also the tribulation isn't the same as His wrath. The 7th Trumpet is the 7 bowls of wrath. Paul says we are raptured at the last Trumpet which heralds the end of the tribulation and the beginning of God's wrath.
Because the Bible doesn't discuss multiple raptures. What we have is a lot of, probably well meaning folks, reading the Bible and interpreting it differently. While I have my own opinions( that have changed wildly over the 40 plus years of being a believer) I think it isn't that important. Prepare for the worst...that is what is wisest. So if we ,as believers, are prepared to lay down our physical lives to be a martyr for Chtist and then the rapture occurs and makes it unneecessary then awesome. However...if people are expecting a pre trib rapture and that doesn't happen then they may not be prepared. They may lose their "faith". This is possibly the great turning away.
So if there are millions of Christians on the earth during the Tribulation, how come God calls 144,000 Jews at the beginning of the Tribulation to go and preach the gospel to all the world? Why wouldn't he just use the millions of Christians who are already here, ready to serve? Something doesn't make sense.
Right, I agree. The focus is on preaching to Israel, and it so happens that Gentiles get saved in the process--a lot of them. I don't know what the church is doing if it's still here, except that perhaps Jews won't be listening to the church, but only other Jews. Of course, Dr. Kurschner doesn't believe that the Trib starts until the mid point.
@@ReLair88 Yeah so if the pre-trib rapture takes 800 million Christians off the planet, the only people left are the ones who are close to the Christian community. They are the Catholics, the 50% of the congregation that was in church but didn't really believe the message. Others who had Christian friends. Etc. So God fulfills his original plan, and that was for the Jewish people to take the gospel to all nations (but they rejected the gospel the first time around). God raises up 144,000 Messianic Jews whose job is to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every tribe, nation, tongue, etc. They are responsible for the great multitude in heaven in Rev 7:9. That is their ministry. The ministry for Israel, that is the purpose of the two witnesses. God brings back Elijah and Moses when the Tribulation begins, and their job is to stand on the Temple Mount and preach the gospel. In fact, the reason for the rebuilding of the temple is to make the ministry of the two witnesses more effective. They bear witness that the law and the prophets proclaim the Lordship of Jesus as the Messiah. They reveal the spiritual significance of everything the priest does, and how it points to Jesus as the Messiah. The two witnesses serve during the first half of the Tribulation, when Israel is living peacefully in their land. As they construct the temple, the two witnesses will play a critical role in Israel being converted as a nation. But once the mid-point of the Tribulation arrives, right before the abomination of desecration, the Anti-Christ kills the two witnesses, before he steps into the Holy of Holies and acts like he is God.
Good question. The Jews were called to be a light unto the nations (paraphrased). The millions of Christians on the earth during the tribulation are the result of God's, mercy and these of the twelve tribes, the two witnesses and the angel flying through the midst of heaven teaching the gospel to those on the earth. The church has been removed and they are fulfilling that prophesy.
@@jash7401 Correct. God's original plan was to have the Jewish people share the gospel message to all the nations, but they rejected Him, so he had to go to the Gentiles. Once he removes the Gentile church, then the 144k fulfill what God originally intended. They are responsible for bringing billions to Christ during the Tribulation. But that greatly conflicts with post-Tribulation eschatology that the "Christians" will endure to the end and be the ones bringing the message to the world. Hence it negates that there are believers on the planet when the Tribulation begins.
@@seanc2788 Read Acts 15:6-17 along side Paul's statement in Romans. For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. .I believe it was John Barnes that opened my eyes to the Acts verses. Let me know what you think?
I haven't finished the video but does he address this question: Did Paul live with the expectation of Christ's eminent return? If so, doesn't that support the pre-trib rapture?
I don't think so, brother Joe. God bless you. Yes, Paul did believe he would be alive for the rapture (2 Thes. 2:1). But he also believed the same for the second coming (2 thes. 1:6,7). The two must happen around the same time frame, as I see it.
@@slamdunk4879 I read the 2 Thessalonians 1 passage. That appears to be the Rapture because the current people were facing current persecution and tribulation v.4, then v5 appears to be the Rapture!!! Wow! The Kingdom of God is what we suffer for! v6 Then God pours out His Judgement on one's who give us tribulation (man's tribulation). This is the Tribulation. Then the return v7. Thanks for this passage. God bless
It's obvious by the way Paul lived, wrote, and spoke that he believed Christ could come back at any moment. That's why he was so passionate for people to be saved (the purpose of his travels) and for the church to grow and mature, right? He wanted to present the church as a pure, chaste bride (2 Cor 11:2). Scholars say 1 & 2 Thessalonians are Paul's earliest letters to the Church where he teaches about the return of Christ. But not just Paul. John & Peter also wrote suggesting the time was near and that their days were the last ones. But practically EVERY generation has believed that Christ's return was soon. I think God planned it that way so that we might always "be ready". In the 1930's people thought Hitler was the anti-Christ. More recently, some thought President Obama was the A.C. In 1964's massive earthquake in Alaska, people thought it was the return of Christ. God must have planned it this way so that we might not get too comfortable in the World and live as lights in the darkness and be eternally minded.
Yes he did. And his comfort to the martyrs in Thessonlica was aimed at telling them The Day of The Lord had not happened. The minor and major prophets are replete with the horrors of That Day or that great and terrible Day, The Day, period of time known as Jacob’s Trouble, Daniel’s 70th Week, or The Tribulation and also The hour of trial that Jesus refers to in the Lord’s prayer. Paul says some things must happen first: the rapture the falling away and the revelation of the Antichrist. Plain as day. Mistakes happen when one doesn’t understand the terms. Day of tbe Lord incredibly important
I believe in a post-trib/ pre-wrath rapture / resurrection but I disagree with Dr Allen's interpretation in Mathew 24 on who will be taken and who will be left behind ( which only supports the pre-trib / left behind series ). Starting in verse 36 - Regarding no one knows the day or the hour ....... Jesus says in verse 37 " As it was in the days of Noah so it shall at the coming of the Son of Man " I believe Noah preached about what was coming so these people was hearing but refused to believe. Then it goes on to say " they knew nothing about what would happen ( because of unbelief ) "until" the flood came and "took" them all away" As you can see the sinful ones were "taken". Then Jesus says this is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. So the one left in the field is the believer. Why ? Regarding the Tares and the wheat parable Jesus says at the end of the age, the angels will remove the Tares first and throw in the fire then the wheat is harvested.
Nobody knows and can’t agree on anything, it’s crazy why this is even debated. Why don’t we just admit we have no idea and then just be ready for whatever. *yawn
My favorite saying about eschatology is “pray for pre, prepare for post”. I find it’s still beneficial to understand my brothers and sister who care about these topics and what the reasons are for what they believe. We can have unity in the midst of difference if we take the time to listen to understand one another.
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies. September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle. I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth.
Do your own research, salvation like the rapture is by faith. In a twinkling of an eye caught up in the air. No one on earth will see it happen. Because Jesus doesn't come down.
@@robcrobert In German, instead of saying "I'll just be a minute," they say they will do it in the "blink of an eye." Does this mean they do things invisibly?
@@CheriFields (1 Corinthians 15:52 KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. A twinkling is not a blink.
No. Not when Jesus was referring to the Days of Noah and Days of Lot... the ones taken are removed. Then Matthew 24:43 says the house was broken up because he wasn't watching. He wasn't prepared. The RETURN is when angels are involved with gathering Mark and No Mark takers.
Matthew 24:44-51 KJV Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. [45] Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? [46] Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. [47] Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. [48] But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; [49] And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; [50] The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, [51] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
@@Pre-Tribulation there are 4 passages that speak directly on the rapture.. none of them are pre-trib..you have to interject a theory made up in the 1830’s..nice try
Since the New Covenant is “everlasting” in Hebrews 13:20, how is the Church Age going to end before the Second Coming of Christ? Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it. The Capitol "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 of this passage proves at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the people of God. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. "It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view." The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197. The gathering of the Church is described at the end of 1 Thess. Chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5. The word “But” in the first verse of chapter 5 connects the two chapters, and the words “we” and “sleep” in verse 10 of chapter 5 prove the two chapters are connected.
It's been 2000 years we have been.. in that sence. But when the bible is speaking about tribulation, it is speaking about christians being chased, tortured like never before, and put to death. Some christians in some countries are experiencing it. It's nothing compared to what you are experiencing in the occident.
What do you do with the fact that we come back with him? We go up and come back immediately? Read 2 Ezra. Clearly a pretrib view. Furthermore followers of the apostles followed pre trib beliefs. Jesus opens the seals not satan. It’s not “satans tribulation “. It’s Gods tribulation as he opens the seals. Why would the 144,000 and 2 witnesses be needed if we are still here?
A few things: -the 2 witnesses are here during the first half of the tribulation, then killed by AC after he takes power mid-tribulation. Then the last 3.5 years is the AC rule and war on the saints/church. -The tribulation and the wrath are two separate things. Nowhere in the bible does it say the church leaves 7 yrs before the Day of the Lord and are exempt from tribulation and persecution. We are to expect persecution (Matthew 5:10, Matthew 24:9). But we are not appointed to wrath (1 Thess 5:9). -The wrath is not spoken of in the book of Revelation until Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18. The gathering/"rapture" wedding supper does not even take place until AFTER the tribulation is over in Rev 19. -And the "coming back with him" is meeting him in the air, not all the way up to Heaven (1 Thess 4:17). So, as he is coming down on the Day of the Lord, that's where we meet him. It never says we spend 7 yrs in heaven first. -The tribulation is the Antichrist's war on the saints. After Jesus comes, the wrath comes. -The FIRST resurrection is outlined in Rev 20:5 Sorry, but pre-trib isn't biblical. it's just not there.
@@Littleangel_-jp4xb The Elders, in Heaven, see all seals opened in Heaven and they are redeemed to the throne by the blood of Jesus!!! They will rule on the Earth as Kings and Priests, Revelation 5:10. The Elders are NOT the saints, Revelation 7:13-17. The Elders are sitting on thrones and power of JUDGMENT is given to them, see Revelation 20:4. The only resurrection happens for the saints, because 100% were beheaded.
@@Littleangel_-jp4xb wrong!😑 Jesus said in John 14:1-4 that he’s preparing a place for us in heaven. He will come back and take us there. How is this not pre trib? This promise contradicts the post trib because we come back down immediately without going to our place at the fathers house as Jesus said. As for pre trib it fits perfectly because we Go to heaven during the tribulation period. Paul reassured this in 1 thess 4:13-17 and Philippians 3:20-21 our citizenship is IN HEAVEN not on earth.
The common theme of anti pre trib videos is arrogance as displayed at the very beginning of the video. “By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Jn 13:35
This was too much for me. Over my head. Fancy word salad. I got 2/3 through. Thanks for the video...just couldn't follow what they gentleman was saying.
@@slamdunk4879 Its not going to make any more sense to me a second time around. I may go back and watch other videos from this channel on this topic however. Some teachers I connect with and some I don't. The Holy Spirit knows how to teach me. He'll guide my path. Remnant Radio is pretty fair about discussing all sides of an issue so I feel like its a good source for digging.
When you don’t believe in the pretrib rapture, you are not considering what Jesus did on the cross. All of the suffering he endured for our sake. You believe that we have to prove ourselves and on our own strength we gotta make it out of the great tribulations
Revelation chapter 7, 9 KJV Beheld and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all tongues, stood before the throne 13, And one of the elders andwered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes, 14, And I said unto him, Sir, knowest. And he said to me , These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes. And made them white in the blood of the Lamb . This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Tell it to all of the Christians who were burnt at the stake, had their heads cut off, thrown to the Lions as Sport in Rome for believing in Christ then and now. Tell it to them!
@@rod1547 that wasn't God's way of testing their faith, that was evil people wanting them dead. The tribulation will be God putting the inhabitants of the world under pressure to submit to Him and repent of their evil ways...many will, even more won't.
This is one of the BEST answers here! People don't seem to get that when Jesus took on our flesh so that he could take our sin onto himself when he died on the cross...that he also took something else onto himself...GOD'S WRATH ! The WRATH we deserved for our sins. 1st John 4:1-3 warns us that any belief or teaching that denies that Jesus came in the flesh is from the spirit of the antichrist. When anyone teaches that the Church will again be subject to the Wrath of God in the Tribulation, they are in effect denying that Jesus came in the flesh , and dealt with our wrath there. And what did John warn us in that regard? It comes from the spirit of antichrist.
@@AnniEast If they won't turn to a loving forgiving God through the Love of our Lord while it is day, what makes you think they will if they believe it's Him causing the tribulation? Does God Force anyone to accept him? When the Wrath oh God Starts it's for judgment, not to persuade anyone to love him.
These are the verses used buy those who hold to the "Rapture", which occurs before the 7 years Great Tribulation. 1 Thess. 4:13-18 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. These are the verses depicting the resurrection at the Second coming, after the Great Tribulation. 1 Cor. 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Notice_in_both_cases_those_asleep_rise_first_and_those_alive_are_changed_and_in_both_sections_the_trumpet_sounds._No_secret_rapture_here.___Are_those_who_are_asleep_resurrected_twice?
The most important verses to put the Rapture AFTER the 1st Resurrection [of the just] is found in 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17 "... and the dead in Christ shall raise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together..." And ALL this happens at the sound of the Trump of God. --- The last Trump as Paul prophecies in 1st Corinthians 15:52; but that's not all, in the same 15th chapter in verse 23 is written about the Resurrections "...Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ at his coming." And I would simply add [at his 2nd coming], which does not change the meaning at all. These above scriptures should settle that there is absolutely NO separation between the Resurrection of the Just and the Rapture, and the Resurrection is just a short time before the Rapture.
The Rapture is a resurrection of the dead, and a change of the ones who are still alive and believe in the Gospel. This happens before the Tribulation.
This whole conversation was weird. He was trying to argue against the pre-trib case, but didn’t seem to understand the pre-trib case. Every passage he discussed was a misrepresentation of the pre-trib interpretation.
@@CheriFields to me it felt like he was going to several passages that pre-trib rapture people, including myself, would use, but then misrepresenting how they use that passage, and then arguing against that misrepresentation. That's called the straw man fallacy. He did this with Daniel 9, 2 Thessalonians 2, and other passages.
I believe the proof of the rapture is that John experiences the rapture himself in the book of Revelation chapter 4. In the first three chapters of the book, the church is mentioned TWENTY times. In chapter 4, a door is opened in heaven, John hears the sound of a trumpet, and a voice "COME UP HITHER', then IMMEDIATELY (In a moment in the twinkling of an eye), John is caught up and in the spirit. The apostle John was brought up into the future and experienced the future rapture himself! Not only that, from chapter 4 through 19, it describes the tribulation and the words CHURCH, churches or Christians are NEVER mentioned again. Where are they? In the first 3 chapters the church is mentioned over and over again. But in the next 15 chapters (4-19), you can't find the words CHURCH churches or Christians mentioned ONCE! Why not? Where did they all go? Chapters 20 - 22 describes the millennium, the new heaven, the new earth and eternity In Revelation 4:1 & 2, you have ALL of the elements of the rapture that is described in 1 Corinthians 15:49-52 & 1 Thess 4:15,16. - you have a voice, a trumpet, a calling up, a change into a spiritual condition which occurs IMMEDIATELY - IN A MOMENT IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE! Moreover, 1 Thess. 4:18 reads: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. wherefore COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS. So instead, if there is no pre-trib rapture, Christians are to possibly experience two world wars, the battle of Armageddon, a chance that we may take the mark of the beast & dozens of other horrors - Therefore, we are to comfort one another with THESE words? Or, when the Lord returns are Christians who are waiting, and our hope is in the Lord really going to say to the mountains and rocks “”FALL ON US AND HIDE US FROM THE FACE OF HIM THAT SITTETH ON THE THRONE, AND FROM THE WRATH OF THE LAMB”” As it reads in Rev 6:16? In Revelation 6:15 it reads: that EVERY bondman & freeman (which would include everyone on earth), hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains. Aren’t we Christians supposed to look for the coming of the Lord Jesus with hope? Is that hope? At the rapture Jesus arrives in the air (i Thess 4:16,17). At the end of the tribulation our LORD lands on the ground. (Joel 2; Isa, 2; Rev 5:10, 14, 19). Not only that, He commeth WITH the ten thousands of His saints. (Jude 1:14). These saints return with the LORD on white horses. Now there will also be Tribulation saints; however, their salvation will be based on faith PLUS works, and how gentiles treat God's people - the Jews. During the tribulation period, salvation will no longer be based on grace alone. As far as Mark 13, Luke 21 and Matthew 24 is concerned, who was Jesus speaking to? He was talking to the Jews! There wasn’t one bible believing Christian in the bunch, NOT ONE! It is also not true that the Rapture was first taught by Darby, which many post-trib, post-millennium & A-millennium people claim, for in addition to John and Paul writing about the Rapture in the bible, it was taught by Ephraem the Syrian more than 1,500 years ago! He wrote: ‘For all the saints and the elect of God are gathered PRIOR to the tribulation that is to come and are taken to the LORD lest they see the confusion that is to overcome the world because of our sins.” That is a sixth century A.D. letter ascribed to Ephraem Syrus (A.D. 306 to 373) from a sermon on “The Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the world.” This is just one of many early church teachings about the rapture.
Our hope should not be based on escaping tribulation, it has to be based that HE IS with us during tribulation. They can take your body but not your soul
@@amsterdamG2G Tribulation Yes! All Christians suffer tribulation. The great tribulation - No! Or are you going to be hiding in a cave when the Lord returns asking the rocks to fall on you as it states in Rev 6:16? Jesus said to pray that you will be able to escape the things that are to occur. Why pray to escape if there is no escape?
@@phalanxrazorz4863 How do you explain John being raptured EXACTLY as it is described 1 Corinthians 15:49-52 & 1 Thess 4:15,16. Moreover, during the tribulation it mentions several times that those saints must keep the commandments of God. Since when do Christians have to keep God's commandments? We are saved by Grace through faith in our LORD Jesus Christ. By the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.
@@kjvnews8326 John's experience isn't yours. Or can you jump in the ring with Mike Tyson because David killed a Giant? Pre trib exists in a realm of concepts, there is no scripture stating masses of saints are caught up and taken specifically to heaven before the man of sin is revealed. Plus the dead rise first and the first mass resurrection is rev 20 making pre trib impossible.
QUESTIONS:.. God allowed the Church back then to undergo persecutions and martyrdom... 1 ) Do they (1st Cent. A.D. Christians) knew that the rescue of the Church thru Rapture was not for them or not for their generation back then?... 2.) Is God Almighty, an Unfair God for allowing back then to suffer the martyrdom of the Church while our generation today if Christ will come, the Church will not suffer thru Imminent Rapture?
The Rapture isn't to escape persecution, although it will do this too... The Rapture is to escape the "Thief in the night", or, "Snare" event that tests the whole world with Mark or No Mark.
@@Pre-Tribulation The "Thief of the Night" is mostly associated and attributed to DEATH also, which no one knows when it will come to us (young and old) unless we have an evil mind or mental disorder to take our own lives called suicide... The Bible said, "No one knows the DAY or the HOUR," but Christ gave us a HINT of SEASON and SIGNS before the 1st Resurrection of the Dead People of God happens followed by the Rapture of the Living and the meeting of Christ Jesus from the sky/clouds... these will be "Simultaneous SEQUENTIAL Events" that will happen one after the other...It can not just happen at any moment (imminence)... What are the Signs based on the Bible,... Prophet Elijah will come back before the Great Tribulation starts... the Sun and the Moon will not shine or give their light for a period of time ...etc... If we see those SIGNS, it is just a matter of "DAY and HOUR" before it will happen THE EVENTS... There will be NO Secret Rapture, with the 1st resurrection of the Dead, and the coming of Christ nor Christ will appear twice... "Coming and Meeting" are the same Event... Christ will only appear once according to the Bible, and when Christ Jesus comes from the Sky/Clouds, it will be a PUBLIC Event, (not a secret with the LOUD Last (the 7th) Trumpet Sound) everybody both believers and non-believers (Atheists) around the world will see the coming/meeting of Christ Jesus from the Sky/Clouds landing at Mt. Olive with His Transformed People washed by the blood of Christ, facing the Eastern Gate side of the Temple mount, Israel (with LIVE coverage)... how?... thru mass media, internet, T.V, cellphones, laptops, etc...
To get a proper perspective, they should have had someone on to give an opposing view. I believe in a pre tribulation rapture but some of what he is saying isn’t even espoused by most pre tribulation rapture teachers.
It is important to remember that believers in Yeshua are "grafted in" to the vine of Israel, thus all prophecies that apply to Israel also apply to us. We can take it deeper by following the scriptural trail of Ephraim and Judah.
A Christian can always quote John 3:16 if you want to know how to get Saved, but they can never show you where in the Bible it states the Rapture will take place 7 years before the Second Coming.
@@andreastarks2780 Daniel 12:1 shows "at that time".... speaking of the time of Roman occupation... Dan 11:40,41.... then it states that BOTH the righteous and unrighteous are resurrected.... which occurred in Matt 27 when Christ when to "paradise/Sheol" while in the grave for 3 days.... Releasing the righteous to heaven, and the unrighteous to hell. Rev. 20:4-6 informs us that at the resurrection of the dead, when Christ returns (1 Cor 15:42-54, Job 14;12, 2 Peter 3:10, matt 24:35,36) only the righteous are resurrected... the rest of the dead remain dead for 1000 years. Therefore, Dan 12 CANNOT have anything to do with the futuristic resurrection that occurs when Christ returns.
@@RandyRoth-mo3lz thank you, now I have a good study to be able to debate my Bible study group. I am not pre-trib rapture, I am post mil partial preterist.
It is a shame that western Christians cannot read history books! Rome was not a crushing empire. Pax Romana they came in you pay tax they build streets and aqua ducts. Furthermore the Antichrist comes into a city without walls where they are dwelling in peace. Hasn’t happened but pretribulation folks always think it’s Rome!
We are dwelling in Heaven BEFORE the saints even show up, Revelation 13:6. The Mark shows up, Revelation 13:16. The saints have 3.5 years to endure the AntiChrist and his Mark.
Dr. Alan kurschner.. you probably will never read this but please do a debate with gary demar on the "Timing statements" in the Olivet discourse. That would be an epic debate.
Here are some distinct differences between the rapture and the second coming. 1, Imminent Vs Categorical 2, Unknown, Like A Thief Vs Known, 1335 Days After The Abomination Of Desolation 3, Secret Vs Visible 4, Lord Himself Gathers Vs The Angels Gathering 5, Deliverance Vs Judgment 6, Removing Believers vs Removing Unbelievers 7, For The Church Vs With The Church 8, In The Air Vs On The Ground 9, During Peacetime Vs During Devastation 10, Comforting Vs Warning 11, Day Of Christ Vs Day Of The Lord
@@kimmykimkoIf you believe that there will be a great tribulation warning prior to Christs return, then you are greatly deceived. Yes, it will be ‘business as usual’ right up to the day when the Son of Man is revealed. Luke 17:28-30 Two will be in the field, and one will be taken!!! 🕊
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies. September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle. I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth.
If you call yourself "The REMNANT Radio" it is a sign to me that you don't rightly divide. You probably have all sorts of teachings that belong to national Israel. Maybe it's time for a word study for you guys. "Remnant" is not the church. Even Paul specifically names the remnant as being national Israel.
I'm so confused. So is Dr. K saying that Christ is coming and staying on earth for the whole of the great tribulation? Or is he saying that Christ is not coming until Armageddon? And when is what he considers the wrath? Is that the first 7 seals? The first 7 trumpets?
It is claimed that pre-trib is based on fear, but I've never actually heard any pre-triber make an argument for the pre-trib rapture based on fear. Can you provide a source, please?
I would guess that you've arrived at your u/standing due to numerous texts & passages, but is there maybe ONE passage that you deem "convincing" to the point that you could never capitulate? Lastly, what argument(s) seem "EMOTIONAL" for the pre-trib position? I've never argued making an appeal to emotion, just sayin'. *MARANATHA!*
@@Kman. why are you intent on preaching a pre-trib rapture? little can be gained from it, but a great deal can be lost if you are wrong. will you feed and shelter my family if you are wrong? no
On the day of Pentecost, when the disciples spoke in known languages, not tongues, the Holy Spirit was not pored out on everyone. It was more of Peter using it as an example of the Holy Spirit.
Satan's wrath? I thought it was Jesus who is worthy to open the seal judgments and therefore the heavenly hosts are orchestrating the Tribulation. Satan has nothing to do with it. When the first seal is broken by the Lamb, one of the four living creatures who serves the Lamb calls forth the rider on the white horse who is the Anti-Christ. So clearly the Tribulation begins when Christ opens it up, not Satan. Therefore the entire series of seals, trumpets and bowls is called forth by the creator, the devil just plays his small role in it all.
I guess he believes that the wrath doesn't begin until it is explicitly mentioned in chapter 6 (the wrath of the Lamb). Not that I disagree with your statement.
the real ecclesiastical error is the one Dispensationalists commit by Separating themselves from God's people Israel, in violation to God's command in Isaiah 56!
Dispensationalist separate themselves from God.... To suggest that we no longer live in the dispensation/gospel of Christ is for them to claim that Christ is no longer the way, the truth and the life for them....and somehow they can make it to the Father through the man Paul. Dispensationalism offers a counterfeit gospel, a counterfeit salvation a counterfeit return of Christ and a counterfeit hope. Every argument is birthed in deceit.
The following proves you are correct. Who is really teaching “Replacement Theology” ? (Did God fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary? Matthew 26:28, John 19:30) The advocates of modern Dispensational Theology often accuse others of promoting “Replacement Theology”, or some may even say “Antisemitism”. What does the Bible say about their accusations? 1. Who is replacing Christ as the seed of Abraham through which all the families of the Earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3, with Abraham’s modern descendants? (See Galatians 3:8) 2. Who is replacing the one people of God in John 10:16, with two peoples of God ? 3. Who is replacing the one seed (Christ) in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds? 4. Who is replacing the children of the promise in Romans 9:8, with the children of the flesh? 5. Who is replacing the faithful “remnant” of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5, with the Baal worshipers? 6. Who is replacing the word "so" in Romans 11:26, with the word "then"? 7. Who is attempting to replace the Church made up of all races of people, with one made up only of Gentiles? Why did Peter address the crowd as “all the house of Israel” in Acts 2:36, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ on the Day of Pentecost? 8. Based on Hebrews 9:15, the New Covenant cannot be separated from the Messiah’s death. Is the covenant in Daniel 9:27 connected to the Messiah’s death in Daniel 9:26. Is the covenant with the “many” in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the “many” in Matthew 26:28? If it is, some have replaced the New Covenant in Daniel 9:27 with a future covenant made by an antichrist not found in Daniel chapter 9. (See the 1599 Geneva Bible used by the Pilgrims.) 9. Those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology often accuse others of teaching “Replacement Theology”, but are they the masters of it? Are they promoting a form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race? (See “genealogies” in Titus 3:9) Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis? 10. Watch the TH-cam video “Genesis of Dispensational Theology” to see the origin of this man-made doctrine, which is less than 200 years old. It was brought to the United States about the time of the Civil War by John Nelson Darby. The doctrine was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and then spread through much of the modern Church. Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas Texas was created in part to promote John Darby’s Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology. Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church:
“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.” Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107. Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.” Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323. John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated… "...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.” John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are there two peoples of God in John 10:16? (See also 1 John 2:22-23, 2 John 1:7-11.) What is the land promise to the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16? Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, is this earth “eternal”? Will it be replaced by a new earth? Based on Acts 2:36, and Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and James 1:1-3, can faithful Israel and the Church be separated into two different groups? Who is the New Covenant promised to in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and Hebrews 8:6-13? Will modern Orthodox Jews ever be saved outside of the New Covenant Church?
Dispensationalist believe there is now no jew or gentile, male or female, but all one in Christ. God is not bringing salvation through the Jews at this time, but through Jesus Christ by His Blood alone, no works. No one has to become a Jew and keep the Law of Moses to be considered a true believer in God, like they did before Christ died and rose. No reasonable dispensationalist holds to a view of 2 peoples during this time, quite the opposite. There is but one people, and that is the Body of Christ. They do however believe that this time will end and God will again deal with Isreal directly, fulfilling the promises He made to them as a nation. Believeing this way does not seperate them(dispensationalists) from God or make them false converts. Those are extreme accusations. I would heed the Bibles warning that you ought not think too highly of yourself...we all see in part, and know in part.
I grew up in a dogmatic calvary chapel pre-trib, Dispensational tradition.
They taught it as unquestionably dogma.
My parents also taught me the pre-trib doctrine of imminency from a very young age. When i was 22 years old i decided to stop believing everything that i was told and get my doctrine from the Scriptures alone. When i read the olivet discourse, 2nd thessalonians 2:1-4 and also revalation chapters 6-8 i ended up rejecting Pre-tribulationalism and came to the conclusion that the Rapture will happen AFTER the anti-christ's great Tribulation but BEFORE the day of the LORD'S wrath upon the wicked.
I came to this conclusion before i ever even heard of the Pre-wrath rapture position.
Different background (mostly with prophetic teaching non-existent) but the same line of evidence and passages for me. I called myself a “Revelation 7 rapturist” for several years before running into prewrath
Me too. Reading God's pure word set me straight!
Amen. I read revelation hundreds of times. I have swayed back and forth and watched so many different views. Both views twist scripture and have arrogant haughty belief and disrespect the other side. We need unity. There is a reason why there is a blessing to those that read and understand revelation. We need to be open to both and to look for both. MY MAIN QUESTION FOR PRE TRIB IS HOW WOULD A GREAT FALLING AWAY HAPPEN AS WELL AS MATTHEW 24. STOP SPEAKING FOR JESUS AND LET IT HAPPEN. LOVE OTHER BROTHERS AND SISTERS AND DONT STRIFE OVER THIS ISSUE OF MENS CREATION OF CONCEPTS
I attended a pre trib-rapture church for almost 5 years trying to believe in it, but yet, questioning as well. They were so dogmatic about it, the pastor would literally call you a loser if you didn't believe it. They taught that the word apostacy in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3-4 meant a physical departure from earth. No where else in the Bible is it ever applied to as such, but, rather, a falling away from faith.> 3 Let No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above [e]every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. They also contradict the scripture which states the man of sin will be revealed before any Rapture occurs. Matthew 24 is also crystal clear on when it occurs. There is no mention anywhere in the Bible of two second advents, or as some pre-tribber foolishly said once to me, the second coming happens in two stages. I left this church many years ago and obtained proper instruction from pastors, Jacob Prasch and Dalton Thomas.
@@craigsaunders2382 "Dogmatic"? Please define that & describe just how that manifest itself in that church...what did that look like? I'm thinking this...
That you're just as set/secure in YOUR belief than the church you attended. Look, I enjoy listening to Kurschner, but I will TOTALLY disagree with him on the matter of end times. I'm familiar with the arguments he puts forth...I've listened to him debate the matter...I've read a wee bit from him, but none of the arguments are convincing to me, _ANNNN_ the majority of Christendom I don't think.
Granted, that in itself doesn't cement the pre-trib position (the one I align with) as being "correct", but I simply u/stand the scriptures to teach the rapture happening *PRIOR* to the tribulation period. So sure...I TOO would be "dogmatic" about the position (as is Kurschner & I guess you too?), but I won't break fellowship over the matter.
I'll go by why Jesus said, he says immediately AFTER the tribulation he will descend with a shout of a trumpet. Matthew 24
You're right on, Pat. The "day and hour"(DH) of the Lord's return comes AFTER all the events Jesus described in the Olivet discourse (Matt. 24:5-31). The church must first "see all these things" before that day (Matt.24:33,36). Pretribs believe the DH comes before the tribulation.
He DIDN'T say He will rapture the church "after the tribulation", sorry. Why _skate_ over an entire chapter to cull THREE WORDS from a passage to find support for a narrative?
@@amsterdamG2G Obviously you know I'll respond with a hearty "YES", so just what passage do you want to discuss? You obviously think not, so what passage do you find the church in, where we're getting raptured AFTER the tribulation?
@@amsterdamG2G Well you've conveniently taken a pass on addressing a/thing that has been brought to your attention, so I really hesitate to bring a/thing else up @ this point...so I won't, only to say that "LAST/LAST "DAY" is not a technical term/phrase. In o/words, it doesn't mean the same thing e/time you find the mention of it, & sorry, but doesn't point to what you think it does.
@@amsterdamG2G No. the church was not born yet. He was talking to his disciples Jews who had been promised a Messianic Kingdom since before Moses
God blessed me so much when he delivered me out from the occult. I was born into a Masonic family, so all my understanding of the Bible was twisted. I threw out everything I knew and started over. I came into this Christian world with a blank slate. Still stinging from the realization of how many lies I'd been buried under. I started looking for Bible teachers. With Bible in hand and a healthy skepticism of everyone teaching it, I began my trek through the insanity that is YT. God has been so incredibly faithful, he's led me to some awesome teachers. I deeply appreciate this teaching. Thank God for Jesus.....Maranatha!
Why did you join the cult of dispensationalism?
@@RandyRoth-mo3lz I haven't joined anything. No need to be rude.
@@BrknVeel I wasn't being rude.... the cult of dispensationalism teaches a counterfeit gospel, a counterfeit salvation a counterfeit return of Christ and a counterfeit return of Christ...
Here are some questions for you:
-----After Christ warns "take heed that no man deceive you..."Matt 24:4, He directly states that He comes after the tribulation... vs 29-31. If you are going to suggest the opposite of Christ (antichrist spirit) and suggest that He comes prior to tribulation... What Scripture tells you that He comes prior to tribulation?
------If Jesus comes "like a thief in the night" when the heavens are destroyed with a great noise... 2 Peter 3:10.... how can a "rapture event" happen prior that would create a countdown to when the heavens would be destroyed?
-----How can there be a rapture prior to Christ rewarding the quick and the dead... which happens at the 7th trumpet... Rev 11:15-18... If Paul, Christ and John all tell us that He rewards everyone when He comes... Matt 16:27, 2 Tim 4:1, Rev 22:12?
-----If Paul directly called the event" the resurrection of the dead"... 1 Cor 15:42-54... which is what he didn't want us ignorant about in 1 Thess 4:13-18... why does the name need to be changed to "rapture"? The resurrection of the dead shows that the dead return with Christ 1 Thess 4:14 and get their physical bodies back from the graves...for the "rise first"... vs 16... Paul directly states that these physical bodies do not go to heaven... 1 Cor 15:42-54...see vs. 50?
-----Why do the dead get their physical bodies returned to them... 1 Thess 4:15-16, if they are going back to heaven for 7 years... instead of ruling and reigning with Christ on a physical Earth?
@@RandyRoth-mo3lz I'm not pre-trib...I never said I was. I'm not even perfectly clear on what dispensationalism is. I simply study the Bible, if I'm listening to someone teach and I can't make what they are teaching match what I see the Bible saying, I move on. I think you're preaching to the choir.
@@BrknVeel Thank you for having patience with this person. I think he didn’t understand what you were saying. God bless you, and I praise God for you coming out of that disgusting cult which is masonry. A good friend of mine in his early 20’s got up to the 32nd degree, and he got cancer and died before he was 23 years old. Thankfully I believe he repented before he died and turned to Christ, but it is truly a brotherhood of Satan.
Great argument for pre-wrath... but still not convinced, still pre-trib
Presuppositions are hard to abandon sometimes. It was for me. I just believed what I was “taught” by my pretrib teachers and pastors. When I read the Bible there were so many things that didn’t match up or make sense. I finally became a Berean by doing Bible studies on my own. At about the same time I read a book by Marvin Rosenthal called “The Prewrath Rapture”. That book made so much sense based on my own studies but my pastor warned me not to take it to heart…so I didnt. Then I read a book my Jacob Prasch called “Shadow of the Beast. He had the same prewrath proofs and used the Bible to show them. I realized just how much preconceived notions that I was taught before. I studied the history of the pretrib ideas. I saw the deception. The whole Bible came alive for me again in a bright new way. I pray that you carefully review your eschatology. Make sure it lines up with actual scripture. I was once told that whole chapters of the gospels were written just for the Jews, yet these same people would quote from the same chapters to try to prove their pretrib theology! Be a Berean. Look at Daniel, Joel, Zechariah, Isaiah, and Revelation like you were starting over. Like you know nothing except what the Holy Spirit wants you to learn. God Bless!
If "rapture" is the term used for "snatching up of true believers to meet the Lord in the clouds".... and the Greek term is harpazo.... used 13 times in Scripture... So you must be suggesting that when Paul was taken (harpazo) by the the Romans and hauled off to prison... acts 23:10... He really was just meeting Jesus in the clouds....Right?
You are changing a VERB into a NOUN.... Peter tells us that unlearned men.... those who don't know the difference between a verb and a noun... twist what Paul teaches on this matter, as they do all of Scripture, and then he calls them "wicked" and tells us not to fall from our own steadfastness... 2 Peter 3:10-18.
The fact is that Paul already DIRCTLY called the event "the resurrection of the dead'... 1Cor 15:42-54... which is what he didn't want us ignorant about in 1 Thess 4:13-18. This was a big deal to Paul.... for the Sadducees taught that there was no resurrection of the dead... Acts 23:8.... and thus the reason people were sorrowful ... 1 Thess 4;13... and why we are to "comfort one another with these words'.... that we are "forevermore with the Lord".
The resurrection of the dead does not occur until the heavens are destroyed with a great noise... Job 14:12, 2 Peter 3;10-18, Matt 24:35,36, Mark 13:31,32. Those martyred for not taking the mark are resurrected at the first resurrection...Rev 20:4-6.
@@RandyRoth-mo3lz Exactly, your interpretation is just to logical for some people to except. Like, if those saints who had been beheaded for refusing the "Mark of the Beast" still have part in the 1st Resurrection at Christ 2nd coming, then it should follow and be true that the Great Tribulation happens before Christ returns to gather his saints which is the church. Further, we know from 1st Cor. 15:52 - the Resurrection happens just before any Rapture, which means all the world will be here for the Wrath of Satan. Read Revelation 7:14 "... these are they which came out of Great Tribulation...". You can't come out of something - unless you are in something first. I hope other will read this and your post, and understand.
I was the same way when I was a pre-trib. It's hard to view it from a different angle without picking up our "old" glasses, if you know what I mean.
This might help: According to Paul, we know for a fact that the resurrection happens just before/or with the rapture. Given this nugget of knowledge, please read Revelation 19 and 20. The first resurrection is the resurrection of all of those who are in Christ. Paul makes this clear in 1 Corinthians 15.
The pre tribulation rapture has been sowed so deep by Satan into the minds and hearts of Christianity in name only.
Regardless that the truth of Gods Word is shown to them for what has always been written, they continue to depart from the truth.
Therefore God will give them over to the great and powerful delusion - then they will take the mark of the beast.
People forget……Christianity is fulfillment of a Jewish faith. The first church members were believing Jews and gentiles were grafted in. But prophecy teachers keep separating the Jews from the church when the church is actually believers. There is no difference between Jew and gentile. So prophecies made to the Jewish people include the sojourner who has adopted the Jewish messiah.
Paul makes that distinction in 1Corinth10:32, the church comes out of both Jews and gentiles, but the distinction remains for those who do not receive Christ, Jews(unto whom God gave His oracles Rom 3:2), and gentiles where were not of the commonwealth of God. Gods program for the end times always separates Jews and gentiles, with the Church under the headship of Christ.
Are some books in the Bible specifically directed towards Gentiles and others towards jews? Why would they be separate?
@@ab3585 yes, but ironically the NT book most directly pointed at gentiles (Romans 9-11) is where pre-tribbers pull the seperation of Israel in the end times from. Then Hebrews the book most directly pointed to the jews in the NT is the book that most clearly shows the connection of the old and new testemant and How God has always been working towards 1 goal.
i see no harm in rejecting the idea of a pre or mid tribulation rapture. if wrong what a pleasant surprise that will be! but i see great harm in believing in a pre or mid trib rapture and being unprepared if wrong. that is a terrifying scenario.
The account of Abraham and Lot is a good example of God not sending His judgment until the righteous are removed Gen. 18-19
God wiping out a city in His wrath is very different than a great tribulation period.
The last trumpet is the 7th Trumpet is the 7 bowls of wrath, earn God comes and wipes out the wicked and establishes His reign. Which is the very Trumpet Paul says will herald the return of Christ, the resurrection and the rapture.
@@cryptojihadi265 "The last trumpet is the 7th Trumpet is the 7 bowls of wrath, earn God comes and wipes out the wicked and establishes His reign."
Demonstrate that.
Also, demonstrate that people are getting married in Revelation 19.
As a new Christian 30 yrs ago, i began reading the Bible for myself. Without any preconcieved ideas, or any outside influence from Bible teachers or historians, or authors, or speakers, teachers, or preachers...i came to the conclusion that the what i was reading in the Bible explicantly indicates a post-trib rapture. I have never let any outside source influence my thinking, as Scripture is sufficient.
Do you think people will be having weddings in revelation 19?
Two reasons why I cannot be convinced to break away from pre trib - Jesus would not require his bride to endure beheading before the marriage supper and the antichrist cannot come until the Holy Spirit is withdrawn with the church, ie. the rapture.
the martyred apostles were part of the Bride. the Christians murdered for entertainment in from of jeering crowds in Roman Coliseum were part of the Bride.
@@dumbcat Are those martyred the ones Jesus promised to keep through the tribulation in Revelation 3:10?
I’m fairly new to reading the Bible. One thing though that bothered me is this obsession with the rapture from preTrib believers. It’s in your face every time you turn around. Knowing that deception is the #1 thing we’re warned of, I began thinking what would Satan prefer we believe?
I also kept questioning certain preTrib arguments like THE DAY of the Lord being 7 yrs, that’s it’s the entire time of God’s wrath, the LAST trump apparently isn’t really the LAST trump, the falling away and the man of lawlessness needing to be revealed first, yet that’s ignored, now some say the apostasy IS the rapture.
If the rapture removes the wheat from the earth, why did the Lord say that the wheat and tares grow together until the harvest? (Which is at the end of the age Matt 13:39)
Also those martyred in Rev 7:9 will not be among those that are alive and remain, they’ll be among those dead in Christ, so wouldn’t they need to rise first?
I wanted to believe in preTrib. I just couldn’t make it work without a lot of “he didn’t really mean that” type of justifications.
I pray that all prepare their minds and hearts.
I TOTALLY disagree with your opening salvo. I'm not a bettin' man, but I would wager that there are as many "POST-trib" videos as there are PRE-trib, and THIS I can say with certainty, that the PRE-trib videos don't _"go after"_ those who align with a POST position, but w/o fail, the POST folks here on YT seemingly have it in for those who believe the PRE-trib rapture. I don't see them going after mid-trib, pre-wrath, Preterists, Amill, etc.
And forgive me, but for you to inject some line about deception & what would Satan want us to believe doesn't qualify for an argument one way or the other. You go on to say, _"I wanted to believe in preTrib. I just couldn’t make it work..."_ to which I say...
We're not to make *ANY* position "WORK" or try to "make it work". Read the text with a consistent, literal hermeneutic that doesn't discard the audience, the context, who spoke it, etc...
And you close with, _"I pray that all prepare their minds and hearts"_ and I couldn't agree more...prepare for *JESUS,* not the tribulation.
If you're able to put up one passage...yea one VERSE that tells us *WHY* the church would have to undergo ANY of the tribulation, I'll capitulate. The truth of the matter is, there are *S E V E R A L* passages that give us not only *WHY* the tribulation will be here, but the *PEOPLE* it's aimed at, and NONE of them include the church. none.
i see no harm in rejecting the idea of a pre or mid tribulation rapture. if wrong what a pleasant surprise that will be! but i see GREAT harm in believing in a pre or mid trib rapture and being unprepared if wrong. that is a terrifying scenario.
@@Kman. if you are wrong and there is no pre-trib rapture but you have been telling people there will be one, you could hurt a lot of people because they did not prepare. and if you are wrong will you feed and shelter my family? no. there is no way you can blame people for getting a little irritated.
@@dumbcat Your comment right there is nothing but an Appeal to Emotion. You bring no argument. It carries no weight. It's a logical fallacy.
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies.
September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle.
I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth.
Pre Trib rapture believer. 🙏💚🙏❤️🙏💙
Maranatha! May today be That Day! Praise Jesus.
Amen, and *AMEN!*
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies.
September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle.
I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth.
Its clear to me, after a lifetime of research, Pre Trib is the most likely
Amen
That's what we're all hoping for, but that's not necessarily the way it will be. Christians have been persecuted since Christ's resurrection, & will be until He destroys evil. God's WRATH is for the destruction of the wicked, not His saints. The bible says Christians will face many tribulations/persecutions until then. Christ's disciples were martyred & Christians have been ever since via the works of satan, which is different than God's WRATH which is the destruction of the wicked.
@@lizf8949People that believe in the rapture already know that.
To suggest that Scripture offers a rapture, is to ignore what Jesus said.
First...Jesus warns us about the deception over this issue in verse 4... Matt 24;3,4 and then directly tells us that He comes after the tribulation... vs 29-31.
Then He declares that the heavens will be destroyed ..vs 35-42..and of THAT DAY... no man knows the day or the hour.. but it will be as the days of Noah and one person will be taken and the other person left. He was referencing Job 14:12... which states "man dies and does not rise again until the heavens are destroyed. This first notes the event Scripture calls "the resurrection of the dead". Peter later quotes Jesus and Job and states that Jesus comes like a thief in the night when the heavens are destroyed... 2 Peter 3:10.... as Christ also points out that He comes like a thief...Matt 24:43-
The concept of a rapture was created to suggest that Jesus returns 7 years prior to the heavens being destroyed. to make this suggestion is to remove the element of surprise declared when the heavens will be destroyed and bump it up 7 years... thus creating a countdown to when the heavens would be destroyed...Now suggesting that Scripture is mistaken that the element of surprise falls when it says it does... when the heavens are destroyed with a great noise... 2 Peter 3:10. This prior event of a rapture does not exist in Scripture... Ever notice that the rapturists love to suggest that 'no man knows the day our the our of their conjured rapture", when Christ told us that no man knows the day or the hour of when the heavens are destroyed?
Paul directly calls the event "the resurrection of the dead"... 1 Cor 15:42-55, which is what he didn't' want us ignorant about in 1 Thess 4;13-18... not the "rapture". The lie of the rapturist tells us that Paul revealed this brand new mystery of a rapture... citing 1 Cor 15:51,52... and ignoring the fact that Paul directly called the event "the resurrection of the dead"... 9 verses prior and is revealing the mystery of how people are changed at the event he directly calls the resurrection of the dead.... Why is it SO IMPORTANT to change the name? The resurrection of the dead is presented throughout Scripture: Job 14:12, John 11, Heb 6;1,2, Rev 20;4-6 The reason the rapturist must change the the name is so that they can deceive and be deceived.
The term "the resurrection of the dead" maintains the focus on the dead", whereas the new fangled term "rapture" redirects the focus to the living. The art of deception, as any good magician knows, is redirection. Every argument for a rapture is birthed out of deception
@@lizf8949 Not what I am hoping for. I am not so afraid of the world. There is no reason to be.
I lean towards the rapture doctrine……I also pray to strengthen my faith if it is not…….what I don’t care for is the condescending attitude towards those brothers/sisters that do believe in a rapture.
I know what you mean about that, but there was no condescension in this discussion here. They did a good job presenting the pre-tribulation rapture beliefs and then analyzing them with scripture
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies.
September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle.
I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth.
Jesus said he will raise us up on the Last Day, not 7 or 3.5 years prior. And he can certainly protect his elect if he is pouring out wrath on his enemies. Remember Psalm 91. Amen?
I grew up believing the pre-trib. Then about 1-2 years ago, I was 50 at the time, I read the book of Revelation. My eyes were open and I realized that it says Jesus is going to take the dead in Christ first and then the believers at the seventh trumpet. I realized it’s very arrogant of us to believe that believers aren’t going to have to go through the tribulation. God’s people had to go through the 10 plagues in Egypt, what would make us any different 🤷♀️
It is "very arrogant" to believe that our sins can be forgiven by only believing too. But that's what was promised.
The Dead Are Raised First [1 Thess 4:15] We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have died. Therefore, the Rapture cannot take place before the dead are raised. The Bible tells us WHEN the dead are raised [1 Cor 15:52] "at the Last Trumpet". Also, we are told this takes place on "the Last Day" [John 11:24, 6:39, 6:40, 6:44, 6:54,12:48]. Finally, we are also told this takes place after the tribulation [Matt 24:29, Mark 13:34]. Also, "saints" in Jude 1:14 and 1 Thess 3:13, is a reference to "angels" (holy ones - Strong's G40 Hagios) - not human saints, but "angels" are also called "saints" or "holy ones" (Deut 33:2, Ps 68:17). The Rapture cannot take place before the dead are raised - the dead shall rise first. Therefore you cannot have a Rapture (of the living believers) until the dead are raised first, placing the timing of the Rapture after the dead are raised, at the Last Trumpet, on the Last Day, after the tribulation...just like the Bible explains it. We must not contradict these Scriptures as so many have done. We need to embrace and understand these plain statements from the Bible. Please share this with everyone. With thanks to Jesus our Savior. Amen.
@gospeltrax2513 - Looks like you are confused on what angels are, and also the "Last Day". In both Jude an 1Thess. it says God comes with his saints not angels. Show me where the bible says saints can be angels of the Lord, it doesn't. When the bible says He will come with his saints it is always talking about his second coming, and since we are coming with Him, then we must have to be in heaven with God already. (Raptured). You are confused between last day resurrection of old testament saints and new testament saints. New testament saints are resurrected at the rapture before the tribulation(we are his bride) and old testament saints are resurrected after the tribulation. You obviously can't discern CONTEXT, please learn how to comprehend context. If you can do this you will definitely believe the pre-trib rapture. Once you learn how to understand the context of scripture; read Revelation chapter 5 and 2Thess. 2:1-8 especially verse 5-8.
God Bless,
Tribulation. Wrath. Two different words.
Jesus said he went to prepare a place for us, and would return again to receive us unto himself, so that we may be where he is NOW, in Heaven.*(when we shall be caught up)*
That can't happen when He returns and His feet stand upon the mount of Olives.(second coming) because we know he will then reign on Earth.
So what of the place he has prepared for us?
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
-Revelation 3:10
*John 14:3
* 1 thessalonians 4:17
We experience the tribulation, the persecution & wrath of the Anti Christ but we are not subject to the wrath of God which is the Day of the Lord which occurs when cosmic catastrophes occur. We will not experience that.
@thepasswordisJesus - Context! Jesus was speaking those words to His disciples. In the Olivette Discourse, I could find no statement from our Lord that said "and all who believe in Me". The use of this particular passage as being applicable to everyone Born Again has always been a problem for me because I know I am not one of those who was sitting with Jesus when He made the reference to "in My Father's house....". If there is another Scripture that promises Believers the same thing, I would love to see it. That would answer a burning question I have had for years.
@@carmennooner2027 IOW
you can not reconcile those verses. So you explain how Jesus was mistaken
Because the new Jerusalem with come down from heaven with homes prepared for us. Read un Revelation about how God's city will come down from heaven to the new earth. Praise him for he will the heavens and the earth new.
@@Khulismonica
mat 25, the bride goes to the marrige chamber at the rapture,
rev 19 the bride becomes the wife and the wedding supper is completed in heaven.
the new jerusalem comes many years later.
EXCELLENT- as Always, from Brother Kerschner!!!!
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies.
September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle.
I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth.
@@youhannabarrechit5649 So I guess we're 3 months into the tribulation now.
I don’t know man, whenever it comes to these discussions I always wonder if it matters to my salvation when (or if) the rapture will happen. What benefit am I missing that comes with knowing all of this stuff? To me, Jesus coming back and defeating all evil, sin and death seems to be where our hope and faith should lie not how, when and where things will happen.
In 2nd Thessalonians 2:10-12 warns of a God sent delusion that will be brought upon those who don't have a "love for the truth". The Truth that matters here is the very same subject matter of 2nd Thessalonians - which is what must happen just before Christ return. Chapter 1 gives a visual description of what Christ return will look like. It should form a picture in your mind. Than the first 4 verses of Chapter 2 tells of 2 events that must occur before Christ will gather his people to himself, so we will NOT be deceived by Satan's return and his declaring himself as God. God is going to test our faith and also our knowledge of the Truth, which is in his Word. Pretribulationalist can very easily fall victim when Satan comes.
@@nickstaxfree9604 and here we are arguing about when the rapture will happen or if it will happen at all.
Problem is, that the pre tribulation rapture ‘jesus’ is the false ‘jesus’ from the false gospel. Paul warned of him and his gospel of filth.
@@MorrisonJames Are you saying people who believe in the pre-trib are not Christians? I’d believe in faith in Christ alone for salvation, believe in His divinity and Him living a sinless life and dying for my sins but all that is invalidated by a belief in pre-trib? Really???
I don't believe it matters for salvation. However, if were a post-tribber or a pre-wrather I would be shopping for bomb shelter (nuclear war) these days. Pre-wrath negates 2 Thes 2:3. The AC is revealed when he confirms the peace treaty. I don't think the pre-tribbers are right about 1 Thes 4:13-17 either. I think that is the second coming with the one and only resurrection (1 Cor 15:52, John 6:39-54, 11:24, Rev 20:4-6). Luke 17:22-37 is the pre-trib (eating, drinking, etc., Matt 24:39 oblivous , unaware etc.) rapture without a resurrection (Luke 17:37). There is a flash of light and dead bodies. We leave our flesh on earth.
The most important point about a correct understanding of when the Second Coming happens (called the Rapture), is in the spiritual, mental, and physical preparation to withstand all the schemes of the evil one and having done all, to stand victorious in your faith to never give up and turn away from your Lord. That is the express reason why Jesus said he wanted us to know ahead of time. The pretrib teaching leaves a believer vulnerable to not being prepared in the case of their theory not coming true like they have been taught. Then, considering many are teaching pretrib as a biblical absolute, will they realize their teachers were incorrect or will they believe the Bible is not true? All this at the exact time when they will realize they may have to die for their faith. Some even believe when pretribbers see the Abomination of Desolation, many at that time will turn away from the faith fulfilling the great falling away.
@@seasquawker pretrib already have an antichrist spirit..... After Christ warns, "take heed that no man deceive you..." Matt 24:4, He warns of many antichrists and then directly states that He comes after the tribulation.... vs 29-31. To teach the opposite of Christ (antichrist) and suggest a rapture prior to tribulation requires Scripture that would directly state the opposite of Christ.... otherwise the person has rejected Christ for the doctrines of man/devils.
Christ tells us that those who have no mindset for tribulation and persecution, are "stony soil" believers, and when it comes... "the will immediately stumble". The pretrib is the breeding grounds for the stony soil. Paul tells us that the falling away is in context with the man of perdition revealed.... 2 Thess 2:1-3. If you have no mindset for tribulation and persecution, and you value a fabled rapture over the Word's of Christ.... a state of delusion is bound to occur. God Himself puts a strong delusion over those who do not love the truth....vs 10-12
@@seasquawker Yes, that is the whole design of the pre tribulation rapture by Satan
Many already are TURNING AWAY from the TRUTH and believing a LIE, look around the APOSTASY has already begun and moving like a SPEEDING BULLET!!!
@@seasquawker
I believe in the PRE-TRIBULATION Rapture, but I do not have any ISSUES with ANY of my Brothers and Sisters in the Lord who BELIEVE in the MID-TRIBULATION Rapture.
See as Brothers and Sisters in the Lord we LOVE Jesus with ALL our HEART, with ALL our MIND and with ALL our SOUL and NOTHING not ONE THING should SEPARATE us from the LOVE of God which is in Christ Jesus.
@@natureocean9466 absolutely.... people have exchanged believing Jesus for believing man.... No Scripture even remotely offers a rapture prior to tribulation.
"You will have tribulation" -Jesus
Yay
Man's tribulation... correct. We don't face the Judgement of Christ during the Tribulation
1. "Tribulation", yes, but not *THEE* tribulation.
2. _WAAAAAY_ out of context. The verse/passage has *ZERO* to do with the conversation.
Terms. The tribulation
@@Pre-Tribulation .... so being chased, tortured and put to death is what we will face as followers of christ? Well... if that's what you believe according to scriptures, it is the tribulation. Now.. if God's sends "plagues" like he did in Egypt and that he wants to protect us from that He will. But we are surely going to experiment some horrible stuff (which defines the time of tribulation describe in the bible).
You have many brothers and sisters in christ being crucified today in afghanistan for exemple. That's Tribulation Jesus was speaking about.
So be prepared to face that. it's better to be prepared to die for Christ that to live peacefully (nobody has to be prepared for a living a nice life and nice death.. but being prepared for an horrible life and excruciating death? For that, you should prepare.)
Many are blind to God's Holy Word and do not see the truth , but the marriage of the Lamb know as the rapture is very true , we who are saved will be caught up to join the lord in the air and the Christians left behind who are not saved will be left behind going through the Tribulation.. How could anyone miss this?.?.?.?.?.
Because. Nothing of what you said is in the scripture.
So it's easy to miss something that doesn't exist.
The super is for all qho believe in Christ, past, present and future.
there is one question no pre trib teacher can answer > where does JESUS HIMSELF say before the trib < there is not one even hinted at
People not teaching the Rapture are only confused.
Do you mean a rapture in general or a pre trib rapture?
@@user-ru9mv9vh4u Pre Trib Rapture. Luke chapter 21 verses 27 and 28 Jesus is coming In A Cloud the Rapture. In Revelation chapter 1 verses 7 Jesus is coming With the Clouds when he comes back to the Mt of Olive the second coming KJV.
I'm a pan-millenialist. It'll all pan out in the end!
I wonder if pan-mill falls under the foolish virgins as well..... The foolish virgins are told, "I know you not"...Matt 25:9.... and why not? .... Christ just finished telling them that He comes "after the tribulation... Matt 24:29-31. The foolish virgins didn't bring any extra batteries (vessel) for their flashlights (lamps), because they saw no need to prepare.... after all, His coming was imminent....Right?!?
@@RandyRoth-mo3lz lol why did you say "vessel" instead of oil? And why did you bring up batteries and flashlights?
I highly highly doubt that someone who is undogmatic about the Millennium is Damned because of that. I think it's as obvious as the sun in the sky that the millennium hasn't happened yet!! Lol gosh. But I think humans are allowed to be dumb as a sock full of sticks and still be saved if they have Faith in Jesus.
Lol I like your batteries and flashlight
@@RandyRoth-mo3lz I hope you're joking. Just because someone isn't caught up with foolishly trying to pedal off their eschatology, whether it's correct or not , has nothing to do with being prepared for eternity. You could die in ten minutes. What good did your eschatology and the effort time you put in help you. Did it it further the kingdom of God? Sermon over lol
Jonathan Cahn is a pan tribulationalist. You don't have a place to firmly place your feet. It's as Days of Noah and Days of Lot. It's escape, then judgment.
I am post-trib pre-wrath. The only wrath we are promised to be delivered from is "orge" wrath in the Greek. The "orge" wrath is only found in a post-trib context in Revelation.
Orge is defined as forever burning with fire and brimstone... Rev 14:10... the vials are wrath: thumos.... God's anger. Orge is throughout the New testament.... John 3:35, 1 Thess 5:9,10.
Pre-wrath is birthed out of pretrib.... over the false notion of what wrath we are not appointed to. Pre-wrath maintains the false notion of the pretrib that there is a separation of "rapture" and "second coming".... both terms conjured by the pretrib. Paul calls the event "the resurrection of the dead".. 1 Cor 15;42-55.. which is what Paul didn't want us ignorant about in 1 Thess 4:13-18. the term "rapture" was created for the purpose of deceit... to draw the focus off of what is actually written. The resurrection of the dead focuses on the dead, while the rapture focuses on the living. If we can get people to ignore the fact that the dead are resurrected... come back to life, then we can create multiple returns. If there were a resurrection of the dead prior to the end... then a bunch of dead people who return with Christ... 1 Thess 4;14 and RISE FIRST... are somehow mysteriously running around earth without Christ who is still waiting to return so that He can rule and reign forevermore. Problem is that once people die... they are forevermore with the Lord... if they are His.
The resurrection of the dead does not occur until the heavens are destroyed with a great noise.... Job 14;12, 2 Peter 3:10, Matt 24:35,36, Mark 13:31,32. Those martyred for not taking the mark are resurrected at the FIRST resurrection... Rev 20:4-6.
What about the Bible saying that there IS NO LONGER JEW NOR GENTILE ? Are we as Christians not ALL ONE IN CHRIST FOREVER ?
This is a HUGE problem for Christians in particular evangelical Christians. The prophecy about the land of Israel (physical land) took place before Christ arrived on the scene. After the Jews rejected Christ and His death burial and ressurection the old covemant was overwith. The Zionists pushing this theology is EVIL! This evil is what is causing so much bloodshed in the middle east.
Today...if you don't accept Christ as Lord and Savior you are not saved...I don't care if king David himself was your great great etc grand daddy!
I would say I am mote of an amellinalist excepy I don't believe in a literal thousand year reign. Anyway...I agree with your sentiment.
I was a pretribber for 42 years, although I considered it a theory and not a biblical absolute (like so many do today). When I discovered the prewrath rapture (2 years ago), I was amazed at how much information I already had that is still correct in the prewrath position. I would love to speak to you in a layman's language (non-technical) about the amazing layout of the prewrath timeline. It makes everything else totally clear like crystal.
Isaiah 26 : 19-21
Prewrathers are generally disgruntled pretribbers... it is because of the "information" they think they already have and assimilate that into their new view. Here is the kink in that thinking..... 2 Peter 3:10-18... After Peter tells us that Christ comes like a thief in the night when the heavens are destroyed with a great noise, he goes on to state that unlearned individuals twist Paul's teaching on the matter, as they do all of Scripture, and then he calls them 'wicked" and tells us not to fall from our own steadfastness.
You now have a problem.... you know that there is one major view of eschatology claimed to have been taken from Paul's teaching alone.... the pretrib. The problem lies in the fact that the Word of God tells us that they twist ALL of Scripture. Therefore, the foundations that you think that you have for the prewrath aren't as 'clear like crystal" as you may think!
Even the name "prewrath" comes from the pretrib deceit that suggests that we are not appointed to God's eternal wrath (orge).... defined by Scripture as "forever burning with fire and brimstone.... Rev 14:10. God's temporal anger/wrath.... thumos is what's found in the judgments of Revelation. David experienced God's temporal wrath when he sinned with Bathsheba, but not His eternal wrath.
Again... the foundations of the pretrib are founded in John Nelson Darby's private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20) of Daniel's 70th week.... an interpretation that was conjured up prior to the time of the Pony Express. Horseback was the fastest mode of transportation when Daniel sealed up the book... Dan12:4... until the time of the end with mass transportation and the internet. History shows that the sacrifices and offerings ended in the middle of a 7 year war known as the Roman-Jewish war or Jewish Uprising... AD 66 to AD 73... ending with the fall of Masada. In the middle of that week the temple was destroyed and the Sacrifices and offerings ended... Yet.... this is STILL the foundation of the prewrath view. Daniel's 70th week has no place in the future.... and the idea of a 7 year tribulation is all pretrib.
If you would like to speak face to face on the matter via zoom.... you can look me up on my channel under the 'about' tab.
@@seasquawker What do you mean, "need to have everything finished"?
The 3rd temple comes out of heaven for the millennium.... not built by hands.
@@seasquawker Christ finished everything... all of Dan 9:24 is complete
We are dwelling in Heaven BEFORE the saints even show up, Revelation 13:6. In Revelation 20:4, the ones sitting on thrones, DON'T GET A RESURRECTION! They follow Days of Noah and Days of Lot about End Times and both had an ESCAPE method and then judgment. The saints show up during last 3.5 years of the Tribulation.
I’m a no rapture but final resurrection kind of guy myself.
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies.
September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle.
I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth. GOD BLESS
@@youhannabarrechit5649 I’ll check back to see if you’re here around 11/12. If you are then by your definition either you’re not a Christian or a false prophet.
I would like to know if armageddon and the trumpet/bowl judgments could take place during the 75 days that follow the 70th week.
Terrific content, guys ! Right up my alley ! The most important thing I say to those who sit under me in this teaching is . . . do the research for yourself, so that you will OWN what you believe. Too many believing brethren, take the word of a biased preacher as to what the Bible says (or doesn't say) regarding this, most important, subject. I take to heart . . . 'See to it that you are NOT deceived !' Those believers who might be deceived by contradictory occurrences to what they were led to believe, are subject to be those who 'fall away' ! THAT is what is subject to your salvation ! Your end-times predictions, in themselves, are NOT issues of salvation ! The 'shortening of days, during the Great Tribulation' promise is what draws me to adopt the 'Pre-Wrath' theology. Thank you for clarification.
Watch: "THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR MISSING THE RAPTURE!" on Repent & Prepare the way.
I’m sorry I still believe in a pre trib rapture
Since the New Covenant is “everlasting” in Hebrews 13:20, how is the Church Age going to end before the Second Coming of Christ?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
The Capitol "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 of this passage proves at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the people of God.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."
The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197.
The gathering of the Church is described at the end of 1 Thess. Chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5. The word “But” in the first verse of chapter 5 connects the two chapters, and the words “we” and “sleep” in verse 10 of chapter 5 prove the two chapters are connected.
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies.
September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle.
I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth.
@SpotterVideo you wrongly assume the covenant in Jeremiah was fulfilled already. The church is the newTESTAMENT church not covenant. A covenant is not the same thing as a testament. The covenant is for Israel not the church
@@SpotterVideo(2 Corinthians 3:6 KJV) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
It says testament not covenant. They are different
@@robcrobert The Greek word Paul used in 2 Cor. 3:6 is "diatheke". It is the same Greek word translated as "covenant" in the passage below. Paul also spoke of the "two covenants" in Gal. 4:24-31.
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (KJV)
The problem with studying eschatology is we go into it with presuppositions.
Excellent closing statements!!
Exactly. There are so many other scriptures that line up with a pre tribulation view. The problem I have with people trying to debunk a pre tribulation rapture is they usually misrepresent the views of a pre tribulation rapture.
Most of those who believe the Pretrib doctrine do not know why modern Dispensational Theology needs a Pretrib removal of the Church. They are trying to get the Church off the planet so that God can go back and deal with modern Jews under the Old Covenant system. What is wrong with this idea? Since the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Heb. 13:20, why would anyone think God is going back to the Old Covenant now made "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
Who is really teaching “Replacement Theology” ?
(Did God fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary? Matthew 26:28, John 19:30)
The advocates of modern Dispensational Theology often accuse others of promoting “Replacement Theology”, or some may even say “Antisemitism”. What does the Bible say about their accusations?
1. Who is replacing Christ as the seed of Abraham through which all the families of the Earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3, with Abraham’s modern descendants? (See Galatians 3:8)
2. Who is replacing the one people of God in John 10:16, with two peoples of God ?
3. Who is replacing the one seed (Christ) in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds?
4. Who is replacing the children of the promise in Romans 9:8, with the children of the flesh?
5. Who is replacing the faithful “remnant” of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5, with the Baal worshipers?
6. Who is replacing the word "so" in Romans 11:26, with the word "then"?
7. Who is attempting to replace the Church made up of all races of people, with one made up only of Gentiles? Why did Peter address the crowd as “all the house of Israel” in Acts 2:36, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ on the Day of Pentecost?
8. Based on Hebrews 9:15, the New Covenant cannot be separated from the Messiah’s death. Is the covenant in Daniel 9:27 connected to the Messiah’s death in Daniel 9:26. Is the covenant with the “many” in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the “many” in Matthew 26:28? If it is, some have replaced the New Covenant in Daniel 9:27 with a future covenant made by an antichrist not found in Daniel chapter 9. (See the 1599 Geneva Bible used by the Pilgrims.)
9. Those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology often accuse others of teaching “Replacement Theology”, but are they the masters of it? Are they promoting a form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race? (See “genealogies” in Titus 3:9) Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
10. Watch the TH-cam video “Genesis of Dispensational Theology” to see the origin of this man-made doctrine, which is less than 200 years old. It was brought to the United States about the time of the Civil War by John Nelson Darby. The doctrine was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and then spread through much of the modern Church.
Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas Texas was created in part to promote John Darby’s Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology.
Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church:
“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.
Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.
John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…
"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”
John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25
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Are there two peoples of God in John 10:16? (See also 1 John 2:22-23, 2 John 1:7-11.)
What is the land promise to the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16?
Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, is this earth “eternal”? Will it be replaced by a new earth?
Based on Acts 2:36, and Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and James 1:1-3, can faithful Israel and the Church be separated into two different groups?
Who is the New Covenant promised to in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and Hebrews 8:6-13?
Will modern Orthodox Jews ever be saved outside of the New Covenant Church?
Example please?
Can you please say which scriptures line up with pre-trib.
@@Wallflower28 how much time do you have. If you don't understand that God has a separate plan for the church and a separate plan for Israel then you won't understand a pre tribulation rapture. You have to go back to Old Testament prophecies and work your way forward. If you understand that God has a future for Israel then you have a start. The main reason for the tribulation is for the national salvation of Israel. Have you read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1Corinthians 15:50-58? Understand that Matthew 24 and 25 is not about the rapture as many people think. It is about what will happen to Israel during the tribulation. It has nothing to do with the church. It is a future prophecy for Israel. Matthew 23:37-38. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see me no more till you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." This is when Israel finally realizes that Jesus is the Messiah that they have been waiting for. Revelation 3:10. Because you have kept my command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Revelation 1:19-20. Therefore, write these things which you have seen and the things which are and the things which will take place after this. The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the seven angels of the seven churches and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches. This is what the angel was showing John that the seven churches were in heaven. How can the seven churches be in heaven if the church, all believers, is going to be in the tribulation? The problem for people who try to debunk the pre tribulation rapture is that they don't understand the harmony of scripture. It is like putting a puzzle together. Another problem is that people want to believe that the church has replaced Israel which is called replacement theology. God has given many promises to Israel and if he doesn't fulfill all those promises then that would make him a liar which he cannot do because God cannot lie. Romans 11:25-26. For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved. This does not mean that every Jew will be saved. It means that all Jews who have said what Matthew 23:38 says: You shall see me no more till you say, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. This will be the national salvation of Israel. Jeremiah 30:7. Alas! For that day is great, so that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble. This again is a future prophecy for Israel. Who is Jacob? Israel. You need to understand the Old Testament prophets more. Zechariah 13:8. And it shall come to pass in all the land, says the Lord, that two thirds in it shall be cut off and die, but one third shall be left in it. Again, this is an Old Testament prophecy for Israel. Zechariah 14 is about the day of the Lord and what will happen to Israel during the tribulation. Read it for yourself. Why is it that there are so many prophecies about Israel during the tribulation and none about the church. Because the church will be in heaven. The tribulation is mainly for the national salvation of Israel. It is also about the judgment for an unbelieving world. What you need to understand is the purpose for the tribulation.
@@gregmatz3693 Mid trib is correct. Daniel says it, Paul says it, and Jesus says it, and John says it.
Daniel 12:1 is parallel to Matthew 24:21. 1 Corinthians 15:52 is parallel to Revelation 11:12. 1 Thessalonians 4:15 & 17 parallel to Matthew 24:13. And 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is parallel to Matthew 24:15
We go up when the prophets go up. Nowhere in the Bible does it say we go up beforehand. If we went up beforehand we would never provoke the Jewish people to jealousy. After all they choose a false Messiah right from the start.
Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall SALVATION is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Thank you, brothers! Ha! I agree! We need a good timeline!!! 😂
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies.
September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle.
I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth. GOD BLESS
I like how much Dr. Kurschner respects other that doesn't share the same doctrine of rapture and end times. I like also Thomas Ice who respects people who have different view. That's very intelligent way to handle things. They never say that they can''t change their views when they see they are wrong. Thank you for posting this episode.
Is there an episode with Thomas Ice?
So who is the restrainer in 2Thess 2:6-7? I was always taught it is the Holy Spirit. Will he be taken from us during the tribulation?
I've heard the same thing would like to know!
I would say the restrainer is primarily the Holy Spirit in the church. The AC won't get a foothold with the church on earth. The Holy Spirit will still be working on the earth after the rapture (Luke 17:22-37 no resurrection in verse 37) which explains all the martyrs (Rev 6:9-11). 1 Thes 4:13-17, Matt 24:29-31 is the second coming with the one and only resurrection (1 Cor 15:52, John 6:39-54, 11:24, Rev 20:4-6) on the last trump, last day (singular).
Lord bless,good question. How is God (Holy Spirit) ever "removed" from any place if He is omni-present 24/7?. If the church goes up, saints still have the HS. But That doesn't mean He is not going to be in the world.
makes me think the restrainer is satan himself. He doesnt want all of this to happen. In Revelation we read that he is eventually thrown out of heaven. Depends who the "he" is in 2 Thessalonians 2 will determine the context of that passage. Some versions say "he" others say "He"
The Holy Spirit never leaves, not even during the tribulation.
I too had some serious doubts years ago myself about my pre-trib upbringing and was sick at home for a few days and took that time to study this in depth with just the Bible alone and researching all the key eschatological terms. After days of doing this I could not avoid the pre-trib position, it was like guardrails forcing me on that path. I tried but realized it takes a lot of gymnastics to twist one's way out of it or avoid it. Pre-trib is the biblical position. Sorry guys.
Watch some Nelson Walters talks on the topic. Rapture happens pre-wrath (7th seal), but after Trib begins.
@@jaykrizzle thanks I really do. appreciate it. I find that some of the same style of non-pretrib interpretation is similar to the old earth creationists and calvinism: sounds very good, structured and detailed and so very convincing, yet ignoring the forest for the trees. I will admit pre-wrath is closer to the biblical position, way better than post-trib, but still falls short of obvious characteristics in the pertinent passages. Thank you again very much. Let's all just be ready for His coming, regardless!
Amen. There it is. And no need to replace Israel or indulge in allegory.
I’m a YEC too. I’m interested in what the pre-trib is more straightforward with than you find the pre-wrath. Because for me if you swapped those two out, I could have said the same thing-there is only one position that doesn’t force the Bible into knots. What passages lead you to the opposite conclusion?
I suggest you prepare for the worst case scenario, believe whichever one you wish, but prepare, regardless
The 7 year tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel's dream. It's there to sift Israel, it's not for the church saved under the dispensation of grace.
You are blending theologies together. This makes you look foolish.
You all make a lot of words out of context.
Is the New Covenant found in Daniel chapter 9?
Are we supposed to believe the angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant. Or, is the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28? The 1599 Geneva Bible is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Darby showed up on our shores. What was the earlier understanding of Daniel 9:27 found below in the notes of the 1599 Geneva Bible?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.
Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.
(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.
(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.
------------------------------------------------
During recent years many New Covenant scholars have examined Daniel chapter 9 from a New Covenant perspective. Did Christ fulfill the summary found in Daniel 9:24? Is it about the New Covenant fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary?
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (These two verses are quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
The death of the Messiah is found in Daniel 9:26, and there are only two possible singular antecedents for the word “he” in the next verse. Those antecedents are either Christ or Titus, who was the prince of the people that destroyed the temple during 70 AD.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Is the “he” in Daniel 9:27 the “Messiah”, or “the prince” of the people that destroyed the city and the sanctuary in verse 26? If we used “the people of the prince” it would not be a singular “he”.
Does the author of the Book of Hebrews connect the New Covenant with the Messiah’s death found in Daniel 9:26, in the verse below?
Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. (NKJV)
Verse 26 also says the Messiah would be cut off “after” the 69 weeks. If I agree to paint your house “after” 69 weeks, it will not be painted until the 70th week, or after. Is there a “gap” of almost 2,000 years between the 69th week and the 70th week, or was it fulfilled during the first century when the Gospel was preached “first” to the Jews?
We know there is a time period when the Gospel was taken “first” to the Jews, as the Apostle Paul said in the verse below.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Can we find a time period of about seven years when the Gospel was taken “first” to Daniel’s people during the first century? If we can, we have good evidence that the 70th week of Daniel has already been fulfilled.
Did Christ command His disciples to take the Gospel only to Israel in the passage below?
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
Is the time period when the Gospel was preached “first” (Rom. 1:16) to the Jews in the passage above, confirmed in the passage below?
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
In the passage above Luke confirms the fact that the Gospel of Christ was preached throughout the land of Israel after the baptism which John preached. Here again, we have a text which reveals a time period when the Gospel was taken “first” to the Jews, as Paul said in Romans 1:16.
Bible scholars have looked at the number of Passover celebrations in the Gospels and have estimated Christ’s earthly ministry to have lasted about three and one half years. Was the Gospel taken “first” (Rom. 1:16) to the Jews for a period of about three and one half years during the period of time revealed in the Gospels?
In Galatians 1:14-18 Paul reveals he did not go up to see Peter until about 3 years after his conversion. During that time the Gospel continued to be taken almost exclusively to Daniel's people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.
Read the recent book "The 70th Week of Daniel 9 DECODED" by David Wilcoxson for confirmation of the above.
But Luke says where they are taken; “where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered.” That doesn’t sound like rapture to me. 🤔
Point on! It's clearly the "supper of the great God", *Rev 19:17.*
_MARANATHA!_
The problem with pre-trib is they are dispensationalist. Basically God has different modes of salvation according to what era of time we are in. We are in the church age and thus under grace. Don't believe me research why they think the tribulation is for the Jews and why pre-trib'ers ignore Matt 24.
Why do you want to discard the word DISPENSATION?
Did you guys ever realize if a newborn Christian would listen to your broadcast how much would he understand? Paul didn't speak like this with eloquent words, phrases etc. you guys do, why? Bring it down a level. Can you imagine Jesus would have talked like this? People would have scratched their heads and walked away. Guys, it is not a contest who knows more eloquent words, put yourselves in the shoes of newborn believers. Please 🙏
The 70 weeks of Daniel has already been Fulfilled….
The following proves you are correct.
Is the New Covenant found in Daniel chapter 9?
Are we supposed to believe the angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant. Or, is the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28? The 1599 Geneva Bible is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Darby showed up on our shores. What was the earlier understanding of Daniel 9:27 found below in the notes of the 1599 Geneva Bible?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.
Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.
(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.
(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.
------------------------------------------------
During recent years many New Covenant scholars have examined Daniel chapter 9 from a New Covenant perspective. Did Christ fulfill the summary found in Daniel 9:24? Is it about the New Covenant fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary?
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (These two verses are quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
The death of the Messiah is found in Daniel 9:26, and there are only two possible singular antecedents for the word “he” in the next verse. Those antecedents are either Christ or Titus, who was the prince of the people that destroyed the temple during 70 AD.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Is the “he” in Daniel 9:27 the “Messiah”, or “the prince” of the people that destroyed the city and the sanctuary in verse 26? If we used “the people of the prince” it would not be a singular “he”.
Does the author of the Book of Hebrews connect the New Covenant with the Messiah’s death found in Daniel 9:26, in the verse below?
Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. (NKJV)
Verse 26 also says the Messiah would be cut off “after” the 69 weeks. If I agree to paint your house “after” 69 weeks, it will not be painted until the 70th week, or after. Is there a “gap” of almost 2,000 years between the 69th week and the 70th week, or was it fulfilled during the first century when the Gospel was preached “first” to the Jews?
We know there is a time period when the Gospel was taken “first” to the Jews, as the Apostle Paul said in the verse below.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Can we find a time period of about seven years when the Gospel was taken “first” to Daniel’s people during the first century? If we can, we have good evidence that the 70th week of Daniel has already been fulfilled.
Did Christ command His disciples to take the Gospel only to Israel in the passage below?
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
Is the time period when the Gospel was preached “first” (Rom. 1:16) to the Jews in the passage above, confirmed in the passage below?
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
In the passage above Luke confirms the fact that the Gospel of Christ was preached throughout the land of Israel after the baptism which John preached. Here again, we have a text which reveals a time period when the Gospel was taken “first” to the Jews, as Paul said in Romans 1:16.
Bible scholars have looked at the number of Passover celebrations in the Gospels and have estimated Christ’s earthly ministry to have lasted about three and one half years. Was the Gospel taken “first” (Rom. 1:16) to the Jews for a period of about three and one half years during the period of time revealed in the Gospels?
In Galatians 1:14-18 Paul reveals he did not go up to see Peter until about 3 years after his conversion. During that time the Gospel continued to be taken almost exclusively to Daniel's people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.
Read the recent book "The 70th Week of Daniel 9 DECODED" by David Wilcoxson for confirmation of the above.
Where is the King? does iniquity still exist? Is there still sin? Daniel 7.13-14
@@SpotterVideo Daniel is only concerned about His people, the Jews. The ew Covenant is not mentioned. Buried in tbe parenthetical 69th Week). He traces history accurately up the 69th week (Palm Sunday) snd picks it up i. The 70th week when Israel confirms a covenant with “ The Prince That Shall Come” ( the Antichrist) until the end of the age when The Son of Man receives the kingdom from the Ancient of Days. Why do you think Jesus referred to himself self as The Son of Man ? He validates Daniel. This kingdom shall have no end.
@@meggy8868 Based on the verse below, the Messiah's death in Daniel 9:26 cannot be separated from the New Covenant fulfilled by His blood.
Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
There is no singular antecedent for an "antichrist" in Daniel chapter 9.
In Romans 1:16 Paul said the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people the Jews. This time period is found in Matt. 10:5-7, and Acts 10:36-38, and Gal. 1:14-18.
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.
@@SpotterVideo Granted the Messiah is cut off . But we still don’t know about the New Covenant. Hinted at by Ezekiel 36.26. Palm Sunday is the acknowledgment of His Kingdom which must be held in abeyance. A rule of logic is no information no conclusion. It is the fallacy known as argument from Ignorance. What Daniel does include is amazing. The 4 coming world powers, even brief mention of the Greek Kingdom ruler, Cleopatra. Then in the 70th week blow by blow of the end of the age from AntiChrist to the reign of Son of Man, Jesus. The 69 th week no information. No Jew knew of the CHURCH until Paul revealed it, the “ mystery hidden from the Ages”. Good discussion :). However. Your argument is based on the assumption the New Covenant has to be included with Messiah “cut off “.
Really sad how many people reject the scripturally sound doctrine of the harpazo (rapture in Greek) occurring before the start of the 70th week. And in so doing, forfeit the Lord's intended hope (confident assurance ) tied to the pre-trib rapture. So many people completely misinterpret Matthew 24 and then use it as the basis for a flawed argument of a post-trib rapture. I challenge anyone who wants to be a Berean to dig deep and listen to Pastor Andy Woods' Rapture series from lessons 21-32. Literally 12 hours of deep biblical teaching on properly interpreting Matthew 24-25. Some are simply not willing to take off the blue shades they have worn all of their life, and consequently are spiritually unable to see the panorama of red that exists within the contextual background upon which the substance of Matt 24 -25 has been painted. But most folks are satisfied with a cursory misinterpretation and not willing to spend the time studying to find the treasure of Truth in the Word. Proverbs 18:13. Maranatha!!!
The pre trib idea came about in 1827. So your telling me the Apostles and the early 1st Century Church didnt understand end times?
@@FaithfulFireRadio Sorry, don't mean to be unkind, but your response is so ridiculous as to barely even warrant a response. The idea that the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture came into existence in 1827 is utterly absurd. It is either in the Bible or is this not. Period. And it is.
What happens to young children that are not saved when the rapture happens? Do they stay for the wrath and get more opportunities to get saved?
In the days of Noah, wasnt the wicked taken away, and Noah and his family left behind?
Noah was taken into the ark
The lost were left behind
Noah was protected through the flood. Enoch was raptured before the flood
You are correct. Also Matthew 24 is not the rapture. The wicked were taken away so that the Millennium could commence. Every time a hear a pastor mistakening the events in Matthew 24 as the rapture I know its time to change the channel.
@@user-sn5zs9qh4w What??? Noah was left behind on earth, the wicked were taken away by the flood. Man, I wonder how many other Scriptures you twist to fit a narrative.
@@jsamc You are correct. The rapture doesn't take place until after the tribulation right before the wrath of God, as it states in scripture. Finally a person who doesn't try to interpret scripture to make it fit their beliefs because scripture interprets itself.
Who is opening the seals? Jesus or Satan?
The lamb Jesus. “Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world “
@@meggy8868 exactly. Yet pre-wrath, mid-trib and post-trib all seem to argue that the tribulation period is the wrath of man. Jesus is the one unleashing these things on the earth. It isn't until the 6th seal is loosed that men acknowledge that the wrath of God is being poured out on them.
@@PeopleoftheFreeGift Good. I agree. These people have to allegorize the”hell” out of the texts to come up with yheir notions
@@meggy8868 The question they should be asking is how the apostles would have gone about convincing Jewish people that Jesus had fulfilled messianic prophecies if they also followed this allegorical method
@@PeopleoftheFreeGift Doesn’t matter what men acknowledge, The Bible says that the tribulation begins with the first seal. The lamb’s wrath. Daniel says it will be. seven years. the first seal corresponds to Daniel’s “ Coming Prince” The man with a crown who comes to conquer. Jesus says the last half 31/2 years will be the toughest ( Matt 24) The book os seals sums it up. Fir the great day if his wrath us come “ Who is able to stand ?” None of it is pretty
Great conversation.
I was taught the tier rapture theory. 3 raptures within the resurrection.7 resurrections in scripture. The Bride is raptured first. Yet carnal and others raptured later.
I also have friends who teach those raptured our the tares.
When I was pastoring in my mid 20s I taught pre wrath.
What biblical justification do you have for seven resurrections??
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies.
September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle.
I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth. GOD BLESS
@@youhannabarrechit5649don’t put dates because no man knows the hour
.@@crazycatman5928 READ THE BIBLE..... fool man
Does it really make sense that we, the church, would be raptured before the tribulation saints and be up in heaven celebrating and feasting at the marriage supper of the Lamb while the tribulation saints are being persecuted, tortured and beheaded. I believe we, the church, are the tribulation saints!
He can be a little too technical but Kushner is on of the best pre-wrath and even pre-mill teachers. His work changed my mind on the rapture years ago. But my mind has since been changed on the millennium too.
Oof.
In his new book, PRETRIB, page 90, Alan records “back-to-back rapture and wrath - 2 Thes. 1:6-10.” But the second coming could also be included since Jesus comes in flaming fire. But if the rapture and second coming are back-to-back, how could there be several months between them? I assume the “rest” in 2 Thes. 1:7 is code for rapture, which Jesus has happening when He comes in flaming fire. So how could there be a span of several months between the rapture and second coming to earth will all His saints if the “rapture and second coming are back-to-back?
I like the prewrath narrative, but there are things I'm not understanding.
@@slamdunk4879 I’m wondering why having Jesus’ people resting in heaven during the months of God’s wrath is confusing for you?
post tribulation ---> doctrinal impossibility
after 2030 ---> temporal impossibility
also 2030 - 7 years ---> summer 2023
I send you more explanations, read them, you will understand... follow my comment thread
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies.
September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle.
I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth. GOD BLESS
I thought the anti-Christ will not be revealed until the great restrainor is removed? If the great restrainor is the Holy Spirit which resides in his elect than there must be a pre-trib rapture
Actually, 2 Thess 2 says the opposite of that. If you read it carefully, you’ll see that the coming of our Lord, and our gathering together unto him (ie the rapture) will not happen until the antichrist is revealed first. He tells them to look for the coming of the man of lawlessness as a sign, just like Jesus did on the Mt of Olives. If we’re supposed to look for him as a sign, we can’t be gone before he appears, or Paul’s whole point is missed
If the Holy Spirit is removed then how do people get saved afterwards and if they do why don’t they get raptured out of here is as well.
The Pre-Trib Theory has so many Logical Fallacies that most proponents never even consider.
The mistery is the restrainer. And Paul doesn't state that it is Holy Spirit.
I agree with Jonathan Poland on the timeline found in 2 Thess
I got some clue in the end of Revelation 12 - to beginning of 13. You see that the woman is removed first before the dragon got angry, then the beast is revealed. Isn't that similar with the removal of the restrainer and revealing of the lawless one?
2 Thess 2:6,7.... the restrainer is removed prior to the lawless one
vs. 1-3.... "our gathering unto Him" does not happen until after the man of perdition is revealed.... therefore the order is: Restrainer removed, lawless one revealed, then our gathering unto Him. Paul directly warns us of those who teach that our "gathering unto Him..." is "at hand" (imminent)....vs 2.... Amazing, Paul warns us of his cult following!
No. The Restrainer by all accounts of correct study is Satan. It has always been false teaching that it is The Holy Spirit or the Church.
IF??? The Restrainer is The Holy Spirit, The Church or Michael - God would have named them. They are ALWAYS named throughout all scripture.
Research all the meanings of restrain, to restrain, restraint etc
Satan IS restraining from unleashing his complete wrath upon Gods people - because it is not his time - his is the wild dog on the leash. God lets him off the leash when he is finally cast out of the heavens onto the earth which starts the great tribulation which is 3.5 years - not 7 years. This great tribulation start point when Satan is cast to the earth is the exact point that the man of sin becomes the son of perdition and reveals himself! God allows him to hunt, persecute and kill multitudes of true believers.
The foreshadow of Satan's restraining and the permission he needs from God is found in Job.
The rapture in Mathew already happened. We are promised tribulation which there will be a great tribulation for the church
What would the purpose of a tribulation for the Body of Christ?
I have another question. So what happens to you as a Christian if you enter the Tribulation but you get killed in the nuclear war (red horse) or you starve to death (pale horse) and you don't make it to the 5th seal. Because you have to get martyred during the Tribulation in order for it to count. Rev 6:9 says specifically says you have to be slain "because of the word of God" for your soul to go up under the altar, and to receive your white robe. So that means you have to survive the four horsemen with 2 billion killed under them (that's a lot of odds). Because if you look closely at the pale horse rider, it says death and hell follow him. Death is obvious, that means your body is physically dead on the planet. But Hell is not where Christians go when they get killed (they are supposed to go up under the altar). But if hell follows the people who are dying on the planet during the pale horse we have a serious problem for those who don't get martyred for Christ. Did anyone ever pick that up before now?!?! It suggests to me that the people on the earth when the Tribulation begins are not believers, because all of those killed by the four horsemen go to hell (not heaven). People don't convert until after the four horsemen. Then Satan starts to focus on them personally. That's why God seals 144,000 Jews to go throughout the world to preach the gospel. The reason why they are sealed is that they don't die as a result of God's wrath being poured out under the seal judgments. Anyone catching this yet?
What is your main conclusion derived from what you said?
@@ReLair88 There are no Christians (or believers) on the planet right after the rapture. There are also no Christians on the planet 90 days into the Tribulation when WW3 starts. Either that or God supernaturally changes the laws of physics during the nuclear world war. The bombs only kill the unbelievers and they don't harm the Christians. I don't believe God interrupts the laws of physics. The nuclear bombs will kill believers and unbelievers alike together at the same time. But if you take that stance, then you are saying that all those Christians are going to hell, because during the four horsemen, everyone who dies from those four judgments go to Hades (or hell). That would also contradict scripture. So full circle back to the obvious. There are no Christians on the planet when the Tribulation begins. It's not until after the 4 horsemen that people start dying for Christ. That means people converted during the 4 horsemen and now the Anti-Christ sees that and starts to behead them (5th seal).
You guys are spot on with soooo much!! How can y’all possibly say Genesis is poetry and not history? Reference to old earth vs Genesis is history
Genesis is tough. It's hard to take it straight literal. Trees/vegetation sprouted on 3rd day, sun was fourth day, man sixth, but then again in chapter 2 God made man before any vegetation sprouted so God planted a garden for him,... do you not think it's tough? I'm still trying to figure out exactly how to read it myself.
@@rickjelley6347 you just blew my mind 🤯 I’ve never seen that before. I still believe in 7 days even if I’m confused about that 😳 because of Exodus 20:8-11 where it talks about the law for the sabbath day and says creation was in 6 days
@@justindarnellfpv I hear you. It's tough and I definitely don't have the answers.
@@rickjelley6347 im looking at it, and it seems to me that it’s talking about day 1, heavens and earth, day 3 grass herbs and trees and then day 6… sort of like a summary of what led to man. I don’t know because I’ve never seen it before 🤯
@@justindarnellfpv there are some intriguing good works that argue that Genesis 1 was written to oppose the mythological middle eastern gods - the Sun, moon, water gods (among others). They believed to be slave to those gods as well. In Genesis 1 God corrects this in saying that those gods don’t exist and that He and He alone created those “gods” (the sun, moon, stars, etc) and that we are not slaves, but stewards.
I don't see no secret get out of jail free card either really with what Jesus taught us he says he comes immediately after the tribulation and we're not supposed to fear tribulation or death really according to scripture
Believers have to listen to Jesus words first and foremost over any other teaching. Take the parable of the Wheat & Tares in Matthew 13:24-30 with Jesus explained in verses 36-49 "Let them both grow together until the harvest" The Harvest is "the end of the age or world for the KJV. Jesus is coming at the very end, even the very last day. See John 6:39-40,44&54 "at the last day" I will raise them up. These scripture verses I cited will not be preached by any pretrib pastor. This is not condescending, but simply an observation I have noticed over many year of attending many Baptist churches.
The return is Matthew 24:29-31. We see what happens at the return in Revelation 20:4. The Church Elders simply come down from Heaven to Earth to sit on thrones and power of JUDGMENT is given to them. The saints get a full resurrection because 100% of them were martyrs.
From your post I learned TWO things about you, and no disrespect, but just saying...
*1* Using phraseology like "get out of jail free" tells me you're good @ hoisting up straw men.
*2* Drafting 3 words from deep in a text ("after the tribulation") w/o providing context, tells me you're good @ contextomy.
@@Kman. sir the rapture we all agree that there is a rapture or a catching away of the saints we just disagree on the timing in other words but when I think of a pre-trib I think people just want to escape trouble and that's actually human nature but it's not scriptural Jesus said he was coming immediately after the tribulation tribulation and wrath are two different events and really we're not supposed to be fearful of tribulation or even death for for that matter if you really have the victory now in my Bible tells me that we're appointed unto tribulation yes tribulation is far the church the wrath of God is not and I don't see two different comings of Jesus Christ there's only one
@@shanemcguire5347 I'm out of town, but actually we *DON'T* all agree that there is a rapture, and the "POST" position is a great example of that. I don't see where the "POST" position can reconcile the following with scripture.
*=====>* AT THE RAPTURE...
*1* We go to heaven...where Christ is & has been since He ascended; *Acts 7:55,56*
*2* The Bema Judgment takes place in HEAVEN; *Rom **14:10* & also *II Cor **5:10*
*3* The marriage of the LAMB also takes place in heaven; *Rev 19:7*
The 'ole "AFTER THE TRIBULATION" (as stated), are three words you're culling from a passage that has *ZERO* to do with the church. That was brought to your attention initially. For you to assume it DOES, you must make the case that the chapter deals with the church, & quite frankly, it can't.
Also, a case *CANNOT* be made that the church is appointed unto *"THEE"* tribulation. Any & all verses you would want to cull from the bible that may _USE_ the word "tribulation", are disconnected from the argument, for we're NOT talking about troubles, trials, persecution, etc as Christians go thru life. Here again, you're wanting to rip verses from passages in an effort to find support for a narrative...that is *CONTEXTOMY* and it renders your argument invalid. That's also what you've done in wanting to use *Matt 24* where you found the words, "after the tribulation". The 7 year tribulation period will be the *WRATH* of God on full display, and *PTL,* the church won't be around for ANY of it~:)
All for now. All the best to you in your search for truth, *MARANATHA!*
Being exempt from Gods wrath doesnt mean you wont be here for it. Also, Revelation tells us that we will be massacred, not raptured. Then when Jesus comes, we meet Him in the sky to come BACK with Him.
Also the tribulation isn't the same as His wrath.
The 7th Trumpet is the 7 bowls of wrath.
Paul says we are raptured at the last Trumpet which heralds the end of the tribulation and the beginning of God's wrath.
Who is to say that there is only one rapture? Why can't there be two? One pre-Trib, one post-Trib
Because the Bible doesn't discuss multiple raptures. What we have is a lot of, probably well meaning folks, reading the Bible and interpreting it differently.
While I have my own opinions( that have changed wildly over the 40 plus years of being a believer) I think it isn't that important.
Prepare for the worst...that is what is wisest. So if we ,as believers, are prepared to lay down our physical lives to be a martyr for Chtist and then the rapture occurs and makes it unneecessary then awesome.
However...if people are expecting a pre trib rapture and that doesn't happen then they may not be prepared. They may lose their "faith".
This is possibly the great turning away.
So if there are millions of Christians on the earth during the Tribulation, how come God calls 144,000 Jews at the beginning of the Tribulation to go and preach the gospel to all the world? Why wouldn't he just use the millions of Christians who are already here, ready to serve? Something doesn't make sense.
Right, I agree. The focus is on preaching to Israel, and it so happens that Gentiles get saved in the process--a lot of them. I don't know what the church is doing if it's still here, except that perhaps Jews won't be listening to the church, but only other Jews. Of course, Dr. Kurschner doesn't believe that the Trib starts until the mid point.
@@ReLair88 Yeah so if the pre-trib rapture takes 800 million Christians off the planet, the only people left are the ones who are close to the Christian community. They are the Catholics, the 50% of the congregation that was in church but didn't really believe the message. Others who had Christian friends. Etc. So God fulfills his original plan, and that was for the Jewish people to take the gospel to all nations (but they rejected the gospel the first time around). God raises up 144,000 Messianic Jews whose job is to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every tribe, nation, tongue, etc. They are responsible for the great multitude in heaven in Rev 7:9. That is their ministry.
The ministry for Israel, that is the purpose of the two witnesses. God brings back Elijah and Moses when the Tribulation begins, and their job is to stand on the Temple Mount and preach the gospel. In fact, the reason for the rebuilding of the temple is to make the ministry of the two witnesses more effective. They bear witness that the law and the prophets proclaim the Lordship of Jesus as the Messiah. They reveal the spiritual significance of everything the priest does, and how it points to Jesus as the Messiah.
The two witnesses serve during the first half of the Tribulation, when Israel is living peacefully in their land. As they construct the temple, the two witnesses will play a critical role in Israel being converted as a nation.
But once the mid-point of the Tribulation arrives, right before the abomination of desecration, the Anti-Christ kills the two witnesses, before he steps into the Holy of Holies and acts like he is God.
Good question. The Jews were called to be a light unto the nations (paraphrased). The millions of Christians on the earth during the tribulation are the result of God's, mercy and these of the twelve tribes, the two witnesses and the angel flying through the midst of heaven teaching the gospel to those on the earth. The church has been removed and they are fulfilling that prophesy.
@@jash7401 Correct. God's original plan was to have the Jewish people share the gospel message to all the nations, but they rejected Him, so he had to go to the Gentiles. Once he removes the Gentile church, then the 144k fulfill what God originally intended. They are responsible for bringing billions to Christ during the Tribulation.
But that greatly conflicts with post-Tribulation eschatology that the "Christians" will endure to the end and be the ones bringing the message to the world. Hence it negates that there are believers on the planet when the Tribulation begins.
@@seanc2788 Read Acts 15:6-17 along side Paul's statement in Romans.
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
.I believe it was John Barnes that opened my eyes to the Acts verses.
Let me know what you think?
I haven't finished the video but does he address this question: Did Paul live with the expectation of Christ's eminent return? If so, doesn't that support the pre-trib rapture?
Yes!!!!!
I don't think so, brother Joe. God bless you. Yes, Paul did believe he would be alive for the rapture (2 Thes. 2:1). But he also believed the same for the second coming (2 thes. 1:6,7). The two must happen around the same time frame, as I see it.
@@slamdunk4879 I read the 2 Thessalonians 1 passage. That appears to be the Rapture because the current people were facing current persecution and tribulation v.4, then v5 appears to be the Rapture!!! Wow! The Kingdom of God is what we suffer for! v6 Then God pours out His Judgement on one's who give us tribulation (man's tribulation). This is the Tribulation. Then the return v7. Thanks for this passage. God bless
It's obvious by the way Paul lived, wrote, and spoke that he believed Christ could come back at any moment. That's why he was so passionate for people to be saved (the purpose of his travels) and for the church to grow and mature, right? He wanted to present the church as a pure, chaste bride (2 Cor 11:2). Scholars say 1 & 2 Thessalonians are Paul's earliest letters to the Church where he teaches about the return of Christ. But not just Paul. John & Peter also wrote suggesting the time was near and that their days were the last ones. But practically EVERY generation has believed that Christ's return was soon. I think God planned it that way so that we might always "be ready". In the 1930's people thought Hitler was the anti-Christ. More recently, some thought President Obama was the A.C. In 1964's massive earthquake in Alaska, people thought it was the return of Christ. God must have planned it this way so that we might not get too comfortable in the World and live as lights in the darkness and be eternally minded.
Yes he did. And his comfort to the martyrs in Thessonlica was aimed at telling them The Day of The Lord had not happened. The minor and major prophets are replete with the horrors of That Day or that great and terrible Day, The Day, period of time known as Jacob’s Trouble, Daniel’s 70th Week, or The Tribulation and also The hour of trial that Jesus refers to in the Lord’s prayer. Paul says some things must happen first: the rapture the falling away and the revelation of the Antichrist. Plain as day. Mistakes happen when one doesn’t understand the terms. Day of tbe Lord incredibly important
I believe in a post-trib/ pre-wrath rapture / resurrection but I disagree with Dr Allen's interpretation in Mathew 24 on who will be taken and who will be left behind ( which only supports the pre-trib / left behind series ). Starting in verse 36 - Regarding no one knows the day or the hour ....... Jesus says in verse 37 " As it was in the days of Noah so it shall at the coming of the Son of Man " I believe Noah preached about what was coming so these people was hearing but refused to believe. Then it goes on to say " they knew nothing about what would happen ( because of unbelief ) "until" the flood came and "took" them all away" As you can see the sinful ones were "taken". Then Jesus says this is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. So the one left in the field is the believer. Why ? Regarding the Tares and the wheat parable Jesus says at the end of the age, the angels will remove the Tares first and throw in the fire then the wheat is harvested.
Daniel didn’t know about the church and in Daniel 12 he was told to seal up the vision.
Nobody knows and can’t agree on anything, it’s crazy why this is even debated. Why don’t we just admit we have no idea and then just be ready for whatever.
*yawn
My favorite saying about eschatology is “pray for pre, prepare for post”.
I find it’s still beneficial to understand my brothers and sister who care about these topics and what the reasons are for what they believe. We can have unity in the midst of difference if we take the time to listen to understand one another.
Amen 👏🏼👏🏼🙏🏼
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies.
September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle.
I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth.
Do your own research, salvation like the rapture is by faith. In a twinkling of an eye caught up in the air. No one on earth will see it happen. Because Jesus doesn't come down.
Where would I go to research that no one on earth will see it happen?
@@CheriFieldsin the twinkling of an eye is proof that it will mot be seen. The passage is saying it will happen so quickly that it won't be visible
@@robcrobert In German, instead of saying "I'll just be a minute," they say they will do it in the "blink of an eye." Does this mean they do things invisibly?
@@CheriFields (1 Corinthians 15:52 KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
A twinkling is not a blink.
The passage “one will be taken and one left” is about the wicked being taken first …I guess the wicked is pre trib 🤣
No. Not when Jesus was referring to the Days of Noah and Days of Lot... the ones taken are removed. Then Matthew 24:43 says the house was broken up because he wasn't watching. He wasn't prepared. The RETURN is when angels are involved with gathering Mark and No Mark takers.
I believe your thread comment is very immature
Matthew 24:44-51 KJV Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. [45] Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? [46] Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. [47] Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. [48] But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; [49] And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; [50] The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, [51] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The ones TAKEN here were the ones WATCHING. The unwise servant makes ridiculous comments like yours
@@Pre-Tribulation there are 4 passages that speak directly on the rapture.. none of them are pre-trib..you have to interject a theory made up in the 1830’s..nice try
John 14 is clear imminent rapture pre trib to heaven. A 5 year old can understand it.
I do believe there is a way to go yet before rapture.
Since the New Covenant is “everlasting” in Hebrews 13:20, how is the Church Age going to end before the Second Coming of Christ?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
The Capitol "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 of this passage proves at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the people of God.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."
The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197.
The gathering of the Church is described at the end of 1 Thess. Chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5. The word “But” in the first verse of chapter 5 connects the two chapters, and the words “we” and “sleep” in verse 10 of chapter 5 prove the two chapters are connected.
I think we are already in tribulation from the enemy
It's been 2000 years we have been.. in that sence. But when the bible is speaking about tribulation, it is speaking about christians being chased, tortured like never before, and put to death.
Some christians in some countries are experiencing it. It's nothing compared to what you are experiencing in the occident.
What do you do with the fact that we come back with him? We go up and come back immediately? Read 2 Ezra. Clearly a pretrib view. Furthermore followers of the apostles followed pre trib beliefs. Jesus opens the seals not satan. It’s not “satans tribulation “. It’s Gods tribulation as he opens the seals. Why would the 144,000 and 2 witnesses be needed if we are still here?
A few things:
-the 2 witnesses are here during the first half of the tribulation, then killed by AC after he takes power mid-tribulation. Then the last 3.5 years is the AC rule and war on the saints/church.
-The tribulation and the wrath are two separate things. Nowhere in the bible does it say the church leaves 7 yrs before the Day of the Lord and are exempt from tribulation and persecution. We are to expect persecution (Matthew 5:10, Matthew 24:9). But we are not appointed to wrath (1 Thess 5:9).
-The wrath is not spoken of in the book of Revelation until Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18. The gathering/"rapture" wedding supper does not even take place until AFTER the tribulation is over in Rev 19.
-And the "coming back with him" is meeting him in the air, not all the way up to Heaven (1 Thess 4:17). So, as he is coming down on the Day of the Lord, that's where we meet him. It never says we spend 7 yrs in heaven first.
-The tribulation is the Antichrist's war on the saints. After Jesus comes, the wrath comes.
-The FIRST resurrection is outlined in Rev 20:5
Sorry, but pre-trib isn't biblical. it's just not there.
Bravo, karen
@@Littleangel_-jp4xb The Elders, in Heaven, see all seals opened in Heaven and they are redeemed to the throne by the blood of Jesus!!! They will rule on the Earth as Kings and Priests, Revelation 5:10. The Elders are NOT the saints, Revelation 7:13-17. The Elders are sitting on thrones and power of JUDGMENT is given to them, see Revelation 20:4. The only resurrection happens for the saints, because 100% were beheaded.
@@Littleangel_-jp4xb the church is not mentioned in Rev. Only the 7 churches and then crickets.
@@Littleangel_-jp4xb wrong!😑
Jesus said in John 14:1-4 that he’s preparing a place for us in heaven. He will come back and take us there. How is this not pre trib? This promise contradicts the post trib because we come back down immediately without going to our place at the fathers house as Jesus said.
As for pre trib it fits perfectly because we Go to heaven during the tribulation period. Paul reassured this in 1 thess 4:13-17 and Philippians 3:20-21 our citizenship is IN HEAVEN not on earth.
Michael and his thunder theft ⚡😂
The common theme of anti pre trib videos is arrogance as displayed at the very beginning of the video. “By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Jn 13:35
This was too much for me. Over my head. Fancy word salad. I got 2/3 through. Thanks for the video...just couldn't follow what they gentleman was saying.
Not all word salad is fancy. Some is poopy. Be careful, Sister.
Poopy salad is my least favourite, if I had to choose
Don't quit. Go back and listen again. Ask Holy Spirit to help. He will. God bless you.
@@christianwoudenberg3393 it could make for a good FMT, depending on the sample quality.
@@slamdunk4879 Its not going to make any more sense to me a second time around. I may go back and watch other videos from this channel on this topic however. Some teachers I connect with and some I don't. The Holy Spirit knows how to teach me. He'll guide my path. Remnant Radio is pretty fair about discussing all sides of an issue so I feel like its a good source for digging.
When you don’t believe in the pretrib rapture, you are not considering what Jesus did on the cross. All of the suffering he endured for our sake. You believe that we have to prove ourselves and on our own strength we gotta make it out of the great tribulations
Revelation chapter 7, 9 KJV
Beheld and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all tongues, stood before the throne
13, And one of the elders andwered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes,
14, And I said unto him, Sir, knowest. And he said to me , These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes.
And made them white in the blood of the Lamb . This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Tell it to all of the Christians who were burnt at the stake, had their heads cut off, thrown to the Lions as Sport in Rome for believing in Christ then and now. Tell it to them!
@@rod1547 that wasn't God's way of testing their faith, that was evil people wanting them dead.
The tribulation will be God putting the inhabitants of the world under pressure to submit to Him and repent of their evil ways...many will, even more won't.
This is one of the BEST answers here! People don't seem to get that when Jesus took on our flesh so that he could take our sin onto himself when he died on the cross...that he also took something else onto himself...GOD'S WRATH ! The WRATH we deserved for our sins. 1st John 4:1-3 warns us that any belief or teaching that denies that Jesus came in the flesh is from the spirit of the antichrist. When anyone teaches that the Church will again be subject to the Wrath of God in the Tribulation, they are in effect denying that Jesus came in the flesh , and dealt with our wrath there. And what did John warn us in that regard? It comes from the spirit of antichrist.
@@AnniEast If they won't turn to a loving forgiving God through the Love of our Lord while it is day, what makes you think they will if they believe it's Him causing the tribulation? Does God Force anyone to accept him? When the Wrath oh God Starts it's for judgment, not to persuade anyone to love him.
These are the verses used buy those who hold to the "Rapture", which occurs before the 7 years
Great Tribulation.
1 Thess. 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
These are the verses depicting the resurrection at the Second coming, after the Great Tribulation.
1 Cor. 15:51-52
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Notice_in_both_cases_those_asleep_rise_first_and_those_alive_are_changed_and_in_both_sections_the_trumpet_sounds._No_secret_rapture_here.___Are_those_who_are_asleep_resurrected_twice?
The most important verses to put the Rapture AFTER the 1st Resurrection [of the just] is found in 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17 "... and the dead in Christ shall raise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together..." And ALL this happens at the sound of the Trump of God. --- The last Trump as Paul prophecies in 1st Corinthians 15:52; but that's not all, in the same 15th chapter in verse 23 is written about the Resurrections "...Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ at his coming." And I would simply add [at his 2nd coming], which does not change the meaning at all.
These above scriptures should settle that there is absolutely NO separation between the Resurrection of the Just and the Rapture, and the Resurrection is just a short time before the Rapture.
The Rapture is a resurrection of the dead, and a change of the ones who are still alive and believe in the Gospel. This happens before the Tribulation.
This whole conversation was weird. He was trying to argue against the pre-trib case, but didn’t seem to understand the pre-trib case. Every passage he discussed was a misrepresentation of the pre-trib interpretation.
No
What was he misrepresenting?
@@CheriFields to me it felt like he was going to several passages that pre-trib rapture people, including myself, would use, but then misrepresenting how they use that passage, and then arguing against that misrepresentation. That's called the straw man fallacy. He did this with Daniel 9, 2 Thessalonians 2, and other passages.
@@daniell9268 care to elaborate?
@@PeopleoftheFreeGift Can you name one specific example where he used a strawman argument?
I believe the proof of the rapture is that John experiences the rapture himself in the book of Revelation chapter 4. In the first three chapters of the book, the church is mentioned TWENTY times. In chapter 4, a door is opened in heaven, John hears the sound of a trumpet, and a voice "COME UP HITHER', then IMMEDIATELY (In a moment in the twinkling of an eye), John is caught up and in the spirit. The apostle John was brought up into the future and experienced the future rapture himself! Not only that, from chapter 4 through 19, it describes the tribulation and the words CHURCH, churches or Christians are NEVER mentioned again. Where are they? In the first 3 chapters the church is mentioned over and over again. But in the next 15 chapters (4-19), you can't find the words CHURCH churches or Christians mentioned ONCE! Why not? Where did they all go? Chapters 20 - 22 describes the millennium, the new heaven, the new earth and eternity In Revelation 4:1 & 2, you have ALL of the elements of the rapture that is described in 1 Corinthians 15:49-52 & 1 Thess 4:15,16. - you have a voice, a trumpet, a calling up, a change into a spiritual condition which occurs IMMEDIATELY - IN A MOMENT IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE! Moreover, 1 Thess. 4:18 reads: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. wherefore COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS. So instead, if there is no pre-trib rapture, Christians are to possibly experience two world wars, the battle of Armageddon, a chance that we may take the mark of the beast & dozens of other horrors - Therefore, we are to comfort one another with THESE words? Or, when the Lord returns are Christians who are waiting, and our hope is in the Lord really going to say to the mountains and rocks “”FALL ON US AND HIDE US FROM THE FACE OF HIM THAT SITTETH ON THE THRONE, AND FROM THE WRATH OF THE LAMB”” As it reads in Rev 6:16? In Revelation 6:15 it reads: that EVERY bondman & freeman (which would include everyone on earth), hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains. Aren’t we Christians supposed to look for the coming of the Lord Jesus with hope? Is that hope? At the rapture Jesus arrives in the air (i Thess 4:16,17). At the end of the tribulation our LORD lands on the ground. (Joel 2; Isa, 2; Rev 5:10, 14, 19). Not only that, He commeth WITH the ten thousands of His saints. (Jude 1:14). These saints return with the LORD on white horses. Now there will also be Tribulation saints; however, their salvation will be based on faith PLUS works, and how gentiles treat God's people - the Jews. During the tribulation period, salvation will no longer be based on grace alone.
As far as Mark 13, Luke 21 and Matthew 24 is concerned, who was Jesus speaking to? He was talking to the Jews! There wasn’t one bible believing Christian in the bunch, NOT ONE!
It is also not true that the Rapture was first taught by Darby, which many post-trib, post-millennium & A-millennium people claim, for in addition to John and Paul writing about the Rapture in the bible, it was taught by Ephraem the Syrian more than 1,500 years ago! He wrote: ‘For all the saints and the elect of God are gathered PRIOR to the tribulation that is to come and are taken to the LORD lest they see the confusion that is to overcome the world because of our sins.” That is a sixth century A.D. letter ascribed to Ephraem Syrus (A.D. 306 to 373) from a sermon on “The Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the world.” This is just one of many early church teachings about the rapture.
Our hope should not be based on escaping tribulation, it has to be based that HE IS with us during tribulation. They can take your body but not your soul
@@amsterdamG2G Tribulation Yes! All Christians suffer tribulation. The great tribulation - No! Or are you going to be hiding in a cave when the Lord returns asking the rocks to fall on you as it states in Rev 6:16? Jesus said to pray that you will be able to escape the things that are to occur. Why pray to escape if there is no escape?
@@kjvnews8326 The antichrist won't kill all of us, so some do escape.........on earth.
@@phalanxrazorz4863 How do you explain John being raptured EXACTLY as it is described 1 Corinthians 15:49-52 & 1 Thess 4:15,16. Moreover, during the tribulation it mentions several times that those saints must keep the commandments of God. Since when do Christians have to keep God's commandments? We are saved by Grace through faith in our LORD Jesus Christ. By the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.
@@kjvnews8326 John's experience isn't yours. Or can you jump in the ring with Mike Tyson because David killed a Giant? Pre trib exists in a realm of concepts, there is no scripture stating masses of saints are caught up and taken specifically to heaven before the man of sin is revealed. Plus the dead rise first and the first mass resurrection is rev 20 making pre trib impossible.
QUESTIONS:.. God allowed the Church back then to undergo persecutions and martyrdom...
1 ) Do they (1st Cent. A.D. Christians) knew that the rescue of the Church thru Rapture was not for them or not for their generation back then?...
2.) Is God Almighty, an Unfair God for allowing back then to suffer the martyrdom of the Church while our generation today if Christ will come, the Church will not suffer thru Imminent Rapture?
The Rapture isn't to escape persecution, although it will do this too... The Rapture is to escape the "Thief in the night", or, "Snare" event that tests the whole world with Mark or No Mark.
@@Pre-Tribulation The "Thief of the Night" is mostly associated and attributed to DEATH also, which no one knows when it will come to us (young and old) unless we have an evil mind or mental disorder to take our own lives called suicide...
The Bible said, "No one knows the DAY or the HOUR," but Christ gave us a HINT of SEASON and SIGNS before the 1st Resurrection of the Dead People of God happens followed by the Rapture of the Living and the meeting of Christ Jesus from the sky/clouds... these will be "Simultaneous SEQUENTIAL Events" that will happen one after the other...It can not just happen at any moment (imminence)...
What are the Signs based on the Bible,... Prophet Elijah will come back before the Great Tribulation starts... the Sun and the Moon will not shine or give their light for a period of time ...etc... If we see those SIGNS, it is just a matter of "DAY and HOUR" before it will happen THE EVENTS...
There will be NO Secret Rapture, with the 1st resurrection of the Dead, and the coming of Christ nor Christ will appear twice... "Coming and Meeting" are the same Event... Christ will only appear once according to the Bible, and when Christ Jesus comes from the Sky/Clouds, it will be a PUBLIC Event, (not a secret with the LOUD Last (the 7th) Trumpet Sound) everybody both believers and non-believers (Atheists) around the world will see the coming/meeting of Christ Jesus from the Sky/Clouds landing at Mt. Olive with His Transformed People washed by the blood of Christ, facing the Eastern Gate side of the Temple mount, Israel (with LIVE coverage)... how?... thru mass media, internet, T.V, cellphones, laptops, etc...
The church has and will under go persecution, but the rapture is about not being removed from the wrath of God being poured upon the earth.
To get a proper perspective, they should have had someone on to give an opposing view. I believe in a pre tribulation rapture but some of what he is saying isn’t even espoused by most pre tribulation rapture teachers.
It is important to remember that believers in Yeshua are "grafted in" to the vine of Israel, thus all prophecies that apply to Israel also apply to us. We can take it deeper by following the scriptural trail of Ephraim and Judah.
A Christian can always quote John 3:16 if you want to know how to get Saved, but they can never show you where in the Bible it states the Rapture will take place 7 years before the Second Coming.
At my church they try to find it, read it into, parts of Isaiah and Daniel 12. But they don’t flesh it out to discuss. Moving on…
@@andreastarks2780 Daniel 12:1 shows "at that time".... speaking of the time of Roman occupation... Dan 11:40,41.... then it states that BOTH the righteous and unrighteous are resurrected.... which occurred in Matt 27 when Christ when to "paradise/Sheol" while in the grave for 3 days.... Releasing the righteous to heaven, and the unrighteous to hell. Rev. 20:4-6 informs us that at the resurrection of the dead, when Christ returns (1 Cor 15:42-54, Job 14;12, 2 Peter 3:10, matt 24:35,36) only the righteous are resurrected... the rest of the dead remain dead for 1000 years. Therefore, Dan 12 CANNOT have anything to do with the futuristic resurrection that occurs when Christ returns.
@@RandyRoth-mo3lz thank you, now I have a good study to be able to debate my Bible study group. I am not pre-trib rapture, I am post mil partial preterist.
It is a shame that western Christians cannot read history books! Rome was not a crushing empire. Pax Romana they came in you pay tax they build streets and aqua ducts. Furthermore the Antichrist comes into a city without walls where they are dwelling in peace. Hasn’t happened but pretribulation folks always think it’s Rome!
Brother JD Russel, you are not saved by John 3:16. We are saved by 1 Cor 15:1-4.
@theremnantradio
Can you please invite Jonathan Welton on. I would love to hear your thoughts on him and his book “Raptureless”.
Please have him on "soon"... (not 2000 years from now..!)
This all sounds so exciting, but is it real?
Pretribulation view seems to be the most consistent. Looking forward to the rapture of the church. It is our (Christian’s) blessed hope. ✝️👍
We are dwelling in Heaven BEFORE the saints even show up, Revelation 13:6. The Mark shows up, Revelation 13:16. The saints have 3.5 years to endure the AntiChrist and his Mark.
Dr. Alan kurschner.. you probably will never read this but please do a debate with gary demar on the "Timing statements" in the Olivet discourse.
That would be an epic debate.
Here are some distinct differences between the rapture and the second coming.
1, Imminent Vs Categorical
2, Unknown, Like A Thief Vs Known, 1335 Days After The Abomination Of Desolation
3, Secret Vs Visible
4, Lord Himself Gathers Vs The Angels Gathering
5, Deliverance Vs Judgment
6, Removing Believers vs Removing Unbelievers
7, For The Church Vs With The Church
8, In The Air Vs On The Ground
9, During Peacetime Vs During Devastation
10, Comforting Vs Warning
11, Day Of Christ Vs Day Of The Lord
Impossible. Read 1 corinth 15 all the way through very carefully asking for wisdom. There are not 2 seperate happenings.
@@kimmykimkoIf you believe that there will be a great tribulation warning prior to Christs return, then you are greatly deceived.
Yes, it will be ‘business as usual’ right up to the day when the Son of Man is revealed. Luke 17:28-30
Two will be in the field, and one will be taken!!! 🕊
Now the Rapture can happen at any time because the first day of the Tribulation is of course Sunday, November 12, 2023 (we are a few hours away, D Day -100) and this cannot be changed, for lack of time for the prophecies.
September 16, 2023 is a new 7 year shmittah cycle.
I personally think of a Rapture before entering a new shmittah but we can overflow a little and September 29, 2023 is sukkot symbolizing a tent where we take refuge for 7 days of the world. In any case the possibilities are diminishing and therefore we are coming to the end of our pilgrimage on earth.
@@youhannabarrechit5649 Come quickly Lord Jesus 🙌🏼
If you call yourself "The REMNANT Radio" it is a sign to me that you don't rightly divide. You probably have all sorts of teachings that belong to national Israel. Maybe it's time for a word study for you guys. "Remnant" is not the church. Even Paul specifically names the remnant as being national Israel.
Yesss! These reformed notions always destroy God’s plan for Israel
I'm so confused. So is Dr. K saying that Christ is coming and staying on earth for the whole of the great tribulation? Or is he saying that Christ is not coming until Armageddon? And when is what he considers the wrath? Is that the first 7 seals? The first 7 trumpets?
I am convinced that it’s a post-tribulation rapture. To me the arguments for pre-trip seem emotional more than factual.
It is claimed that pre-trib is based on fear, but I've never actually heard any pre-triber make an argument for the pre-trib rapture based on fear. Can you provide a source, please?
I would guess that you've arrived at your u/standing due to numerous texts & passages, but is there maybe ONE passage that you deem "convincing" to the point that you could never capitulate? Lastly, what argument(s) seem "EMOTIONAL" for the pre-trib position? I've never argued making an appeal to emotion, just sayin'. *MARANATHA!*
@@Kman. why are you intent on preaching a pre-trib rapture? little can be gained from it, but a great deal can be lost if you are wrong. will you feed and shelter my family if you are wrong? no
@@dumbcat Looking at my comment above which you're replying to, I've got to ask, where did I even state that I align with the pre-trib position?
On the day of Pentecost, when the disciples spoke in known languages, not tongues, the Holy Spirit was not pored out on everyone. It was more of Peter using it as an example of the Holy Spirit.
Can anyone show me when and how the pre trib saints receive thier white robes and where does it they reign with christ?
Revelation must have kept everyone on their toes for 2000 years, thinking they may have been in the very last days.
Satan's wrath? I thought it was Jesus who is worthy to open the seal judgments and therefore the heavenly hosts are orchestrating the Tribulation. Satan has nothing to do with it. When the first seal is broken by the Lamb, one of the four living creatures who serves the Lamb calls forth the rider on the white horse who is the Anti-Christ. So clearly the Tribulation begins when Christ opens it up, not Satan. Therefore the entire series of seals, trumpets and bowls is called forth by the creator, the devil just plays his small role in it all.
I guess he believes that the wrath doesn't begin until it is explicitly mentioned in chapter 6 (the wrath of the Lamb). Not that I disagree with your statement.
the real ecclesiastical error is the one Dispensationalists commit by Separating themselves from God's people Israel, in violation to God's command in Isaiah 56!
Dispensationalist separate themselves from God.... To suggest that we no longer live in the dispensation/gospel of Christ is for them to claim that Christ is no longer the way, the truth and the life for them....and somehow they can make it to the Father through the man Paul. Dispensationalism offers a counterfeit gospel, a counterfeit salvation a counterfeit return of Christ and a counterfeit hope. Every argument is birthed in deceit.
The following proves you are correct.
Who is really teaching “Replacement Theology” ?
(Did God fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary? Matthew 26:28, John 19:30)
The advocates of modern Dispensational Theology often accuse others of promoting “Replacement Theology”, or some may even say “Antisemitism”. What does the Bible say about their accusations?
1. Who is replacing Christ as the seed of Abraham through which all the families of the Earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3, with Abraham’s modern descendants? (See Galatians 3:8)
2. Who is replacing the one people of God in John 10:16, with two peoples of God ?
3. Who is replacing the one seed (Christ) in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds?
4. Who is replacing the children of the promise in Romans 9:8, with the children of the flesh?
5. Who is replacing the faithful “remnant” of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5, with the Baal worshipers?
6. Who is replacing the word "so" in Romans 11:26, with the word "then"?
7. Who is attempting to replace the Church made up of all races of people, with one made up only of Gentiles? Why did Peter address the crowd as “all the house of Israel” in Acts 2:36, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ on the Day of Pentecost?
8. Based on Hebrews 9:15, the New Covenant cannot be separated from the Messiah’s death. Is the covenant in Daniel 9:27 connected to the Messiah’s death in Daniel 9:26. Is the covenant with the “many” in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the “many” in Matthew 26:28? If it is, some have replaced the New Covenant in Daniel 9:27 with a future covenant made by an antichrist not found in Daniel chapter 9. (See the 1599 Geneva Bible used by the Pilgrims.)
9. Those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology often accuse others of teaching “Replacement Theology”, but are they the masters of it? Are they promoting a form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race? (See “genealogies” in Titus 3:9) Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
10. Watch the TH-cam video “Genesis of Dispensational Theology” to see the origin of this man-made doctrine, which is less than 200 years old. It was brought to the United States about the time of the Civil War by John Nelson Darby. The doctrine was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and then spread through much of the modern Church.
Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas Texas was created in part to promote John Darby’s Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology.
Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church:
“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.
Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.
John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…
"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”
John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25
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Are there two peoples of God in John 10:16? (See also 1 John 2:22-23, 2 John 1:7-11.)
What is the land promise to the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16?
Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, is this earth “eternal”? Will it be replaced by a new earth?
Based on Acts 2:36, and Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and James 1:1-3, can faithful Israel and the Church be separated into two different groups?
Who is the New Covenant promised to in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and Hebrews 8:6-13?
Will modern Orthodox Jews ever be saved outside of the New Covenant Church?
Dispensationalist believe there is now no jew or gentile, male or female, but all one in Christ.
God is not bringing salvation through the Jews at this time, but through Jesus Christ by His Blood alone, no works. No one has to become a Jew and keep the Law of Moses to be considered a true believer in God, like they did before Christ died and rose.
No reasonable dispensationalist holds to a view of 2 peoples during this time, quite the opposite. There is but one people, and that is the Body of Christ.
They do however believe that this time will end and God will again deal with Isreal directly, fulfilling the promises He made to them as a nation.
Believeing this way does not seperate them(dispensationalists) from God or make them false converts. Those are extreme accusations.
I would heed the Bibles warning that you ought not think too highly of yourself...we all see in part, and know in part.
All this confusion comes from following the teachings of the Catholic Church. The same church that's creating the ecumenical church right now.
If the Church is going to be in the first half of the tribulation, will we know when the tribulation starts? Are we in the tribulation now?
I agree with this I’m post trib pre wrath, but if you are still pre-trib my best prayerful advice is that you be prepared if you are not correct.
No matter what you believe this is confusing to whatever position you hold.