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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2024
- Okinawa - Crucible of Hell - The Last Great Battle of WWII
Part of Pacific Week on WW2TV
We are delighted to welcome Saul David to WW2TV. Saul is Professor of Military History at the University of Buckingham and author of numerous books about various aspects of military history of the 19th and 20th Centuries. He has also a prolific TV presenter with an impressive portfolio of series and specials. sauldavid.co.uk/
The amphibious operation to capture Okinawa was the largest of the Pacific War and the greatest air-land-sea battle in history, mobilizing 183,000 troops from Seattle, Leyte in the Philippines, and ports around the world. The campaign lasted for 83 blood-soaked days, as the fighting plumbed depths of savagery. One veteran, struggling to make sense of what he had witnessed, referred to the fighting as the "crucible of Hell." Okinawan civilians died in the tens of thousands: some were mistaken for soldiers by American troops; but as the US Marines spearheading the invasion drove further onto the island and Japanese defeat seemed inevitable, many more civilians took their own lives, some even murdering their own families. In just under three months, the world had changed irrevocably: President Franklin D. Roosevelt died; the war in Europe ended; America's appetite for an invasion of Japan had waned, spurring President Truman to use other means -- ultimately atomic bombs -- to end the war; and more than 250,000 servicemen and civilians on or near the island of Okinawa had lost their lives.
Crucible of Hell: Okinawa: the Last Great Battle of the Second World War by Saul David
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As a former marine I have nothing but respect for the us army troops that served in the pacific!
As a grandson of a veteran of the 6th Marine Division, thank you for the wonderful interview. Btw, the 6th Marine Division was the only WW2 Marine Division to never set foot in the United States. A story for another day.
Thanks Thomas
Served on Okinawa in the 90s at Torii Station, the place where 6 MarDiv landed to seize Yontan (Yomitan) airfield. The island has been so developed that I found that very little of the battle sites are recognizable, except for perhaps Ie Shima off the NW end of Okinawa (where Ernie Pyle was killed), and Hacksaw Ridge, just north of Naha.
Go explore the caves! Many were left intact from the battle
Excellent presentation Paul and Saul.
Absolutely fantastic
Another outstanding WW2TV presentation. Saul gave a tremendous presentation with a unique look at the Battle of Okinawa. I have run out of adjectives to describe how great WW2TV is, all I can tell you is watch every show!!!
me, too! I have the same challenge.
Excellent interview and superb lecture by a British historian on the final land battle United States troops fought in World War II. Truly well done! I am greatly impressed by this Professor's knowledge of the Battle of Okinawa. (My late father was there aboard USS ONEIDA, APA-221. He was a young Navy doctor at that time. As a general rule, my dad didn't talk much about what he saw during the war. That said, my interest in World War II in general and the Pacific War in particular started because of dad's career in the Navy was I was a school kid in the 1950's and early 1960's.) Thank you for this extremely impressive interview! Andy McKane, P.O Box 166, Maunaloa, Molokai, Hawaii 96770.
Thanks for sharing your father's story
Just a quality episode , look forward to reading Sauls book .
First class interview! Surely we are living in the golden age of WWII scholarship when such content is available to the public.
Excellent show with 2 very enthousiastic hosts. Please do bring him back for the SBS, after all, they originated in WW2
Yep, Saul's forthcoming book is specifically about the SBS in WWII, so he will indeed come back to talk about it
Just finishing up "Bloody Okinawa" and wanted to watch this episode before I move onto "Crucible of Hell". Great presentation and the discussion in the last 20 minutes or so once the slide show was finished was just brilliant and very interesting. Both of your thoughts as to how the battle is viewed in context with other matters such as the bomb, how the Japanses view suicides etc. is very insightful. Great show as always Paul, and Mr. David is really outstanding.
That photo of the father and son is chilling. These were the best people in the history of our country and they did remarkable things.
Thank you again. Saul is blessed with a great teacher's voice, and a very engaged manner; great history teaching. And the story he's telling, particularly the horror of it , raises a multitude of important points, and seems very much in line with the Australian experience, at least the knowledge as received up to now; that the Indo-Pacific was a series of battles, years long, that seem to be markedly horrific and shocking.
Adopting the automatic condemnation of the bomb by the youthful that thankfully was superseded by some actual historical knowledge, it became and becomes ever clearer that it was by far the best of all the options. And although there was research, experimentation, fabrication, etc, etc, that for the artisans, fabricators, scientists, engineers et al, it was their holding a gun on a battlefield, their enduring a depth charge attack in a submarine, their own war effort. And so, the unthinkable Battlefield Japan carnage was averted, a blessing to both sides.
Excellent show and fitting finale to WW2TV's "Pacific Week" series.
My wife is Chinese. She does not understand the hand wringing over the A bomb in America. When the dropping of the bombs is covered in school in China, the students stand up and give a rousing round of applause.
One thing few people think about with ending the war with the bomb is the Chinese lives saved. The amount of Americans not killed because there was no invasion, or the amount of Japanese not killed are mentioned, but the Chinese are not discussed. The numbers of Chinese dying at the hands of the imperial Japanese army in 1945 was absolutely staggering, on the order of 500,000 to 600,000 every month.
My grandfather caught in Europe. After VE Day they started getting ready to go to the pacific. He was greatly relieved after the bombs were dropped. As a family so are we.
Great show, so much to cover but hearing the presentation I'm sure the book is just as good.
Excellent presentation. Thank you
Good book. Because dad was usaf, my mom,brother and me lived with dad 74-77 on okinawa.
catching up on the videos i haven't seen, this was a fantastic show! One of the greatest honors i've ever had was meeting Desmond Doss and shaking his hand, when he came to my local church a couple of years before he passed away. Being a Seventh Day Adventist i grew up being taught about him in my school and church so was such an honor to finally meet him.
Another fantastic, informative show. Saul was excellent! More books to add to the rapidly growing library!
Excellent overview of Okinawa, thank you Paul and Dr. David. I'm loathe to self quote but this is something I wrote in a comment to "B-29s Over Japan - The Atomic Bombs and The Enola Gay" broadcast last year:
"The WW2 Purple Heart Medal awarded by the US to service members wounded/KIA was produced with an ~ 500,000 surplus into 1945. This surplus was intended for projected Operation Downfall US casualties--but were ultimately unneeded and put into storage. Many of these unused (and refurbished) WW2 medals have been, and still are being, awarded to wounded and KIA US service members 76 years following Japan's unconditional surrender."
Japanese dead (military and civilian) accruing from a grinding conventional mainland invasion would have been staggering. It may well have extinguished, between combat and blind emperor worship, the Japanese nation and culture. The irony is that using the atomic bombs likely saved Japan. China, Manchuria, Saipan, Okinawa, et al provide a clear picture of what the Japanese were gleefully capable of doing. Imagine their creativity while defending their own soil.
I won't hold my breath waiting for an apology from the Japanese to the Okinawans.
Brilliant program! Saul's book is now a must read. This has to be one of the top shows I have seen on the channel. Excellent analysis of horrid combat conditions. Personal preference when looking at Okinawa is examine it as a battle without the benefit of what comes after. At the time it was not known. Great presentation--thanks to Saul, and thanks Paul for another excellent program!!!!
Thanks Dave
Japan only annexed the kingdom of the Ryukyu Islands late in the 19th century to prevent a European power doing the same. In terms of how mainland Japanese viewed Okinawans then, a Japanese Army officer with a great understanding of America once remarked that ‘Okinawa is our Puerto Rico.’
‘Tennozan: The Battle of Okinawa and the Atomic Bomb’ is another superb, comprehensive examination of the battle. ‘Tennozan’ is a site where an earlier Japanese ruler had staked everything on a single battle.
Paul & Saul, this was a great stream! Kuddos.
Regards the LVT-3 Amtrack spares issue, please see the USMC official history "Victory & Occupation" Chapter II-9, foot note 26.
ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/V/USMC-V-II-9.html#fn26
26. At the beginning of the campaign, the 4th and 9th Amphibian Tractor Battalions with a total of 205 LVTs were attached to the 6th Marine Division. Added to those in the 1st and 8th Battalions attached to the 1st Marine Division, the total number of LVTs available to IIIAC was 421. IIIAC AR, chap VII, p. 101. The resupply of spare parts for LVTs was totally inadequate, especially in the case of such vitally needed basic items as tracks, track suspension system parts, front drive assemblies, and transmission parts. The lack of all of these deadlined a good many LVTs and severely limited the amount of support they could have provided during the drive to the south and in the Oroku landing. At the end of the campaign, 75 LVTs had been completely destroyed as a result of enemy action, or, having been badly damaged, they were cannibalized for spare parts. Of the 346 vehicles remaining, 200 were deadlined for lack of spare parts. Ibid., p. 102.
I ran into this back in 2013 when I wrote this chicagoboyz blog post: chicagoboyz.net/archives/13605.html
I did this Twitter Okinawa history thread recently with more operational context on the LVT issue here: twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1399871325997518850
Another excellent program- thank you.👍
I didn't know that the British Pacific fleet at Okinawa was the largest strike force of the Royal Navy in WWII. That is impressive and does help explain their effectiveness in the campaign, I did know that the ships were a modern fleet in every term in 1945. Really good stuff.
Love to hear from some Okinawans as a follow-up. Brilliant!
Someone else here mentioned interest in a video about the civilian experience of the pacific war - Americans in the Philippines, British in the various colonies, those indigenous peoples we never hear about such as Vietnamese, ethnic Chinese in Singapore (ghastly), Chamorros in Guam, Indonesians, Dutch, Papuans, Japanese civilians in Iwo Jima, Saipan, etc. it’s a big topic.
Fascinating, and unusual to hear an English historian present with such passion a (mostly) American battle. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it! Actually I think Saul is Welsh, but I take your point
Late to the party. One of the best presentations I’ve seen on this channel. Saul David is superb. In the early 60’s in U.S. we were made to get beneath our desks and cover our eyes and napes of our necks with our hands. I always used to peak , always fearful of seeing Nazi planes in the sky. I had no understanding of the Cold War, but WW2 through my French mother’s eyes seemed very recent and almost present in my 5-6 year old brain.
this is an extraordinary presentation. Very thorough presentation w/ great slides featuring maps and b/w photos from the Okinawa battle. WW2TV continues to suss out content that reminds us of the true cost of freedom. Don't miss this show; it's very informative & the discussion about Truman's decision to use the nuclear bomb is nuanced & honest.
It sure is. And even though this is among the more well known battles, it really bears a continuing learning. And, if such a creature as a Japanese military historian competent in English and willing to do basically what all Paul's guests do, exist, I'd be a very attentive audience.
Bought Mr. David's book when it first came out...and it just went to the top of my TBR pile.
It's a great book Lawrence
55:00 wow, reminds me of my grandfather’s words when he heard about Hiroshima, “blow another one!”
He fought in Burma from early 1943 to the spring of 1945, and after a few weeks back home in northwestern Minnesota, he shipped out for the west coast, knowing full well he’d be going to Japan next… the atomic bomb was used while he was still on the train.
Another excellent presentation from Saul; well done Woody @WW2TV for getting him on to discuss this battle. Having just watched 2 very good episodes from Army University Press regarding Okinawa, I didn't think there was much more to add - Saul proved me wrong. Great stuff. I'm sure Saul will return, and I look forward to that.
Great show, and another book purchased!
Also, After hearing this discussion, I purchased the audio book Crucible of Hell on audible. I haven’t finished it, but so far it’s excellent.👍
I cannot express strong enough the distain I have for those who second guess the atomic bomb and know nothing of the costs paid before the decision(including but not limited to Okinawa).
Everyone is entitled to an opinion
It's estimated that 20 million Chinese were killed in WW II, around 18 million of whom were civilians. That's a holocaust that few people know about.
The Japanese got away with that, they also shared their chemical research which the japenese used civilians and pows.
Such an entertaining and informative hour!!
I just finished “Devil Dogs”. Outstanding research and reading
Thanks!
The Australians would say that the last great battle was the campaign to liberate Dutch and British Borneo which turned out to be much harder than expected because the Japanese assumed the Allies were using it as a stepping stone to retake Singapore.
When the war ended the Australians were much closer to Singapore than the British were.
I think Borneo is another Pacific battle that's forgotten.
"" When the war ended the Australians were much closer to Singapore than the British were.""
And Australia is much closer to Singapore than Britain is so??
I did not know of Doss. But when the picture came on, I thought; "What a nice guy". He looks like the nicest of men- and apparently he was.
"Knock out the US Pacific Fleet". What an absurd thought. The US Pacific Fleet in 1945 was immense, so large you cannot fathom it.
I’d like to see a video dedicated to the role of the British Pacific Fleet.
Great idea, I'll add it to my long list
Great video!
I was a 6 year old living on a South-Eastern U.S. Air Force base at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis, if the SHTF and went down, Everybody knew we were First Wave, even the Children, didn't understand it but we all had fallout bunker drills All the time, everyone knowing they would offer no protection from a near on Blast, we were young, not stupid.
That's what made it so brutal, the Japanese did not surrender.
Operation Coronet would've included many divisions from Great Britain alone, India, Australia, New Zealand, most likely French and possibly Dutch and Canadian troops, planes, and ships. From near necessity and the closeness to the theater of operations in the Western Pacific and since they were already committed to fighting Imperial Japan. The sheer number of naval units, merchant marine, air forces, and ground troops that were needed to invade Honshu would've meant an all-out effort by the western Allies.
@morganhale3434: Not forgetting the almost certain inclusion of Soviet troops & material as well participating in any potential invasion of the Japanese homeland in either 1945, 46 or even 47!!
A whole corps if I'm not mistaken, along with American divisions to be transferred to the Pacific from Europe. Operation Downfall as a whole would have dwarfed Overlord several times over as the largest amphibious invasion in history. Hell to Pay by D.M. Giangreco is an excellent read for the planning and preparation of the Japanese and Allied forces prior to the end of the war for this titanic struggle.
Had an uncle who was at Iwo Jima and then Okinawa. After the war he was in Japan as part of the occupation an security. He later had a son who was born with mental and physical disabilities, which was later attributed to radiation he received in Japan. He was in Hiroshima area.
The other alternative was to completely blockade Japan, which would have killed half the population from starvation within a year. If anyone thinks that slowly starving 10 million civilians to death is more humane than the bombs, I don't think they've thought anything through.
They were starving when the Atomic bombs were dropped.
This had to have been a time of struggling moral with all the troops, in a span of 6 days they lost their Beloved President, Commander-in-Chief and their Beloved Ernie Pyle.
Looking forward to this..
Looking forward to what?
How has TH-cam taken this long to suggest this video for me? Apparently I need to be more blunt with the algorithm…
Sad to see that 118 student nurses who were assisting the Japanese military died in the battle.
I personally am not as sad to know that the Americans were able to do what they had to do to end the evil empire of Japan. Anyone who died fighting for the Japanese, well, they had it coming.
Have you had anyone on that has written a book or delved into the IJA side of the pacific(ie a pacific version of Niels). Maybe there isn’t much western scholarship on this given language and written barriers and that there are so few IJA veterans of any of the pacific land campaigns.
I find the human side of this very interesting how whole units are resigning themselves to complete and total sacrifice. Which is not to say that Americans, Brits, Germans, Russians, etc haven’t been in military situations that they likely realized there was no escape from, but a whole military culture centered around a code such as the Japanese had.
As an aside, I always find it interesting how historians are able to know the name of the Japanese pilot that struck the Bunker Hill, etc. Especially when I imagine the records for the Axis powers(having lost the war obviously) must be ridiculously scarce.
Great show as always, bravo
Would like to comment on 27th Inf. First let me thank you as ever for your choice of subject matter, expert presenter and style of presentation. There is a book on the 3 generals named Smith on Saipan that severely criticizes H M Smith and states he only had consulting rights not command after this. I noticed that your author while criticizing the 27th immediately goes on to say the subsequent marine replacement had much the same reaction. In this type of grueling and debilitating warfare social denigration could not have helped these people. I wonder whether the author was permitting himself some of the more than likely unwarranted bias. I think it worth asking, I have no personal relation to the unit but being aware of the issue am curious. Thank you again
Interesting point Jon - thanks. When I next see Saul, I will try and remember to ask him
You may find this thesis on the 27th by Maj Charles S. Kaune of interest. My great uncle was with the 105th Inf, 27th Inf Div on Saipan and Okinawa. Link is to his conclusions.
museum.dmna.ny.gov/unit-history/conflict/world-war-2-1939-1945/27th-infantry-division-world-war-two/national-guard-war-historical-analysis-27th-infantry-division-new-york-national-guard-world-war-ii/national-guard-war-historical-analysis-27th-infantry-division-new-york-national-guard-world-war-ii-chapter-seven-conclusions
I'm curious; what exactly do YOU think qualifies you to publicly question the decision to drop the bomb?
I'm curious: Why shouldn't anyone be able to question any historic decision?
The Japanese were a vicious enemy.
The 2 atomic bombs and the prospect of more ended the war and ultimately saved hundreds of thousands of Japanese, Chinese, Americans, and others. Not to drop the bombs would have been irresponsible. As many people died in conventional bombing.
Thanks Paul, your brake has given a chance to catch up. Check out hypohisterical history, maybe someone you could work into your program
I love these presentations, but to be honest I've had to just stop after a few minutes because some of your other guests are just not very good at live presentation, but this fellow, who I've seen on a number of other documentaries, is A Number One good at making his point and presenting the information. I don't mean to be so down on some of your other guests, but I really find it hard to understand how they can write a book yet seems so unprepared for live talk.
The thing is, that's exactly why I use a wide range of guests. My problem with regular TV is that it's often the same talking heads in every show. Very slick and professional presenters who make it look easy. My issue with that is that they are therefore ignoring many other brilliant experts who know their subjects but are perhaps not as polished. I fully agree that some of my guests are not as slick as some of the TV names, but to me their knowledge is always worth listening to. So, although I take your point I will continue to use people based on their knowledge of the subject first
So far as dropping the atomic bombs, if Imperial Japan or Nazi Germany had the technology, they most certainly would have employed it with extreme predjudice.
Great presentation, but there is an assumption that the Atomic bombs forced Japan to surrender and I would like to see some evidence of that. From what I've read the Japanese Government didn't even meet to discuss the Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They seem to be pretty keen on fighting the Allied landing in the South and, frankly, were getting it just as bad from the conventional bombing campaign. The Japanese were much more concerned with the Soviet invasions of Manchuria (eliminating an important resource base) and South Sakhalin (putting them withing striking range of the weakly defended North). I get that the Allies thought it might work and that has to be considered when understanding their decision, but it seems it didn't end the war.
This is completely false.
Not correct and verifiably so. It directly persuaded the emperor to cache all his cultural authority to end the war and he said as such multiple times. This is what broke deadlock on the decision in the war cabinet. Even then it was a near run thing to get his message on radio to the Japanese people. The military did want continue even after two bombs and the Russians attack.
Also, see the book Hell to Pay, 2nd edition. The Russians required US logistics for everything they did in Manchuria, and very limited amphib capability.
I have yet to see this referenced, but Richard B. Frank has an exceptional brief discussing ending the Pacific War. th-cam.com/video/0RY7QSx0qCw/w-d-xo.html I include the link here. The reason I mention it, is because in the discussions you had about using the bomb, Richard B Frank references declassified American Intelligence that showed the Japanese military's response to the Atomic Bombs. It is very interesting and a game changer when discussing the use of these weapons. I hope you give it a look, and consider having Richard B. Frank give an updated brief on this.
It was a really stupid decision to have an inexperieced and unproven commander.
I do not mean to sound picky but the title of this video "the Last Great Battle" sounds a bit off center. Yes. I suspect the person who contributed this title probably meant "large" but it sings the wrong note to my ear. There is nothing GREAT about battle, large or small. This is truly an excellent production but I do believe that a better word could have been used when describing one of the largest, bloodiest and most gruesome struggles djring the entire of WW2. Again, I mean no offense so please don't think that the work is.not of the highest quality. It is superlative ... on point. Nothing in it glorifies what happened on Okinawa, except the valor, heroism ant patriotism. God Bless America.
Its simply the title of Saul's book
@@WW2TV yeah. And I figured that it might ruffle someone's feathers. That was NOT my intention. The word "GREAT" is often thought to mean specular. amazing or good to the extreme. I've always used to the word to mean "large".That is just the way of my English teachers through the years. I'm certain that Mr. Saul meant it that way and not in any way to glorify the fighting. I'm equally sure that there are those who took it to mean something other than large and I suspect that was the last thing on his mind. I would hope that no one would glorify war. I know first hand that nothing about Viet Nam was anything other than horrible.
It’s human nature to look at using the atomic bomb in a binary way. That if it wasn’t used atomic issues of the Cold War and the future would not have existed. It’s shamefully dishonest and intellectually lazy. The USSR had already got the atomic plans via espionage. In the end, geopolitical struggles would always remain. Some people assume that atomic science would just vanish if the bomb wasn’t used, that no other conflict would have ended up with the use of atomic bomb(s). I believe that the devastating use of the bomb and it’s effects was important for the world to see and how dangerous such technology is. The world was able to see what it’s use would involve. The bomb was not used out of a blood lust nor for conquest. It was used to end a conflict against a pathologically deathly driven regime with incalculably costs. Okinawa was just a preview.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, especially historians
Only to a Britisher does the "Pacific" War include India...
Yes, it is technically incorrect pattern, but the campaign for India is pivotal to the wider Pacific
Only in the sense of Churchill's panic at the potential loss of India and Army Command's worry about loss of India's manpower. The Japanese ARMY was concerned, but the Pacific War was a Japanese NAVY concern, and the two never really talked to each other.@@WW2TV
So what's your point exactly?
Just the original observation. It was a jarring note...@@WW2TV
These things are deeply rooted. I get called out for calling Burma, The Far East, but those three words although misrepresenting the campaign have meaning to many. I was an associate member of FEPOW as a young man - literally FAR EASTERN PRISONERS OF WAR. Now these days we realise that most of Slim's IV Army did not think of Burma/India as the Far East at all, but the phrase gets used. It seems that TH-cam and WWII in general has broken down the war into three main theatres: Europe, The Pacific and The Eastern Front. Now, of course those names do not cover everything. What about the Med, China? North Africa, etc
Okinawa wasn’t the last great battle of ww2, that would have been the Soviet invasions of Manchuria and elsewhere. Also the final great battle between the Western powers and Japanese was at Sittang End in Burma which took place on the 2nd July and ended on 7th August 1945.
Jeez it's just the book title
@@WW2TV I know but it’s also misleading. The Japanese were fighting on multiple fronts like Germany did.
Publishers need to create titles that attract readers and the same applies to YT. It's why you see Untold, Forgotten. Greatest, Largest, Last etc
It's simply a reality of how marketing works
@@WW2TV very true but he could have at least called it one of the final great battles of ww2.
"One of" just doesn't cut it. I'm literally having this type of conversation with fellow authors and publishers now about the book I'm working on
A snappy, factually, slightly incorrect title is better for sales. That's just a reality