"Super Sonic is not just Sonic using some magic rocks to turn into a Super Saiyan" - Super Saiyan is also not just a Super Saiyan. People now underestimate how DESERVED Goku's first SSJ was. Goku went through the entire original "Dragon Ball" and the entire Saiyan Saga without any superforms. Super Saiyan was something that was teased throughout the Frieza Saga. Goku has been through hellish training before. Goku has been through hellish battles. Goku fought the one who destroyed his people, and who considered him an ordinary monkey. Goku was trying to protect his new home and his loved ones. And Goku sucked in this battle. And only when Frieza killed Goku's best friend in front of him - only then did the usually merciful Goku fall into such a rage that he became a Super Saiyan and defeated Frieza. Sorry for the off-topic, but because of how often superforms were used in Dragon Ball later, because of pop-cultural osmosis, because people skip the original "Dragon Ball" and all that long period when Goku had no superforms - people forget that the first SSJ absolutely earned its epicness.
Was not trying to throw shade at DB there lol. Just wording it that way because clearly that's what Super Sonic is copying. And yeah, later DB does reduce Super Saiyan down to just a power-up. The Namek story earns it.
Ian has expressly said that he writes Sonic as "Roger Craig Smith Sonic". It's weird how people dismiss sonic's original, quieter, more subtle personality as a product of early videogame translation and pretend that he was always meant to be written in a more generic western superhero way. I think it's because they're more familiar with that type of character, tone and writing style and thus think of Ian's sonic as a more "realized" version of the character.
well, that would explain why I do not like Ian Flynn’s Sonic interpretation. I always felt there was way too much “heck yeah buddy, let’s totally kick some epic robo butt!” type dialogue in his writing. I’m tired of Sonic being cringe lol
49:16 now that you mention their designs, Tangle and Whisper are like two sides of the sonic franchise, tangle is designed like how a classic (not in branding) sonic character would be designed, with her weird attribute being her tail, whereas Whisper is designed as if she came from sonic forces (modern day sonic) . and in a sense, you could argue their backstories are like that as well. Tangles story being pretty simple with not much intricacy, and she pretty much is by her self and comes from a small tight knit town (outside of her right hand girl, Jewel (like how sonic pretty much had tails or was alone) but Whisper has a deeper more “lore based” story, being connected to a team (like how sonic branding now emphasize team ups). and bringing them together can be a way of having two pieces of the same pie existing in harmony in the era of a more Unified Sonic branding
23:11: _Indiana Jones_ is about Indiana becoming less mercantile, less about "fortune and glory", believing in the magic behind the artifacts, which parallels him warming up to the women in his life, treating them as romances instead of flings to be tossed aside. Also about father-son reconciliation in _The Last Crusade._
@@Pariah6950 I hesitated to go off and complain about your indie takes in my main comment on this video because I thought there were more imperative things to mention. But yeah the original indie movies deffo have a narrative and plot. And good ones at that. Very good movies. Pretty much original star wars level of quality.
@@Pariah6950 IDW Sonic is about something, though the execution can be kinda debatable. There's a theme throughout the whole comic (yes, even Scrapnik Island) where basically it's challenging 'Sonic' as an idea, the idea of the embodiment of good, the 'perfect character'. Throughout the whole first arc we see how great Sonic is, he's very exaggeratedly cool due to how Ian Flynn writes him, but we see also another kinder side to him, he comforts Tails, he motivates the wisps to fight for themselves, he quickly befriends new characters like Tangle, he shows understading towards Whisper's shyness, overrall just showing how he affects the world by just being kind, and yet in the second arc, from that point on it seems that all good things Sonic does or did, come back to punish him. In the first arc he gives a second chance to both Mr Tinker and Metal Sonic, which might seem odd, but he's done similar stuff in the past so it's nothing new, and due to the circustances, that's what he thought was right at the moment so that's what he did. But then comes another factor to the occasion, Dr. Starline, and he is the opposite of Sonic, he affects the world in negative ways, and he only manages to do that thanks to Sonic's actions, from that point on Sonic just suffers, the consequences of the good thing he did, and yet Sonic resists, he doesn't stop being kind despite that, and that's what makes Sonic such a good person. And we see on Scrapnik Island Sonic's kindness finally paying off, it wasn't just an isolated story, it was a sort of 'end' to this whole arc. But as i said the execution can be kinda debatable, but that what I think was the writers intent from both Ian, Stanley and Daniel Barnes.
@Rainyar4479 They just shoehorned superhero writing into the games' world and/or used characters like Starline and Surge to rant about the apparent status quo of the games (really just their interpretations of the characters and salt at not being able to do Archie again).
The most frustrating part of IDW is that it’s now intrinsically linked to the games now despite feeling completely different. If it was it’s own thing like Archie, I could judge it on its own terms, but I can’t with IDW because it isn’t its own thing. IDW is canon, they are supposed to represent the characters and stories from the games and it fails at every turn. And now we have the very real possibility of IDW’s problems bleeding into the games.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that they are going to ignore criticism, hell, this video could be use as an example because PARIAH'S A WRITTER, so this could be good thing for both Ian and Evan, hell even danny . Like not all of it will be bad
@@sugarsmile7852fleetway was canned all they back in the early 2000s, they’re not that popular so I won’t be surprised if he didnt I never hear of them until that cybershell video
You’re actually one of the first people who actually acknowledges the way sonic Introduces Himself, Ive heard it so much I have it Implanted in my brain
@@igirjei3717 is not brainrot, brainrot is like a virus that gets to you at some point and slowly kills you. Sonic is more like propaganda from a dictorial regime that selects the most vulnerable to its mind control
when he first mentioned it and started building up to it, it brought such a big smile to my face. i didn't even think something as small as that could matter, but it surprisingly makes a huge difference
Another one of those catchphrases he talks about that always sticks in my mind is "Long time no see!", that quote is permanently implanted into my brain.
I wanna add to the stuff about the humor: in older Sonic material, the humor didn't come from the characters making quips or saying funny lines. The humor came from how their personalities played off each other and their situation, like Sonic making fun of Caliburn, or Amy bossing around her teammates. Also, I feel like Flynn writes a lot of characters the same. Like in a lot of situations they all have this very light, sarcastic tone or sometimes phrase things in an unconventional way like he does, and it doesn't feel natural. Sonic would not talk the same as Amy who would not talk the same way as Eggman
I commented this before you brought that second point up. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU CHARACTERS DO NOT ALL HAVE THE SAME VOCABULARY AND MANNERS OF SPEAKONG
I think that may come down to the marvel comic/movie issue that Ian seems to take from: everyone is quippy, everyone is funny, everyone sees what's going on and instead of playing it straight, makes a joke. And because everyone """has""" to be that way, it kinda bleeds over their actual character traits
Literally the core of good comic writing is making all lines interesting, it's been written like that for an actual age. But when sonic does it it's suddenly bad, uh uh.
Interesting fact about the British sonic comics: it's one of the few sonic media to adopted the sonic bible pitch by SOA which American sonic media never adapted
Well there is one exception, there was a one shot comic that was a promotional comic to the sonic game, and it was released in America It adapted the plot that you're talking about
@@saeedalajati yeah that was a thing but other then that none of American Sonic media adopted The Bible they only took some elements for sure like the name of the world and some of the animal characters
The thing with Mr. Tinker was because the comics tried to establish "why doesn't Sonic just kill Eggman". Because Eggman's intellect could be used for good. From my understanding from the games - he couldn't. Eggman is just too good at planning, running away etc. Every time Eggman was vulnerable enough it was during truces. Sonic was previously okay with killing, his reaction to slaying King Arthur (before he knew he isn't a human) was shouting happily "Yes, I did it!", Biolizard, Dark Gaia and many Black Arms soldier got no mercy from him. On the flip side, there is also "why doesn't Eggman just kill Sonic", why he wasn't okay with Starline just setting a trap. He said that he could just carpet bomb Sonic - and he couldn't because he already tried it in Sonic 3&K, in Angel Island! And Eggman even attempted to kill Sonic with a trap in Adventure 2! When Sonic and Eggman couldn't just kill each other, it made them both feel strong, two indestructible shields stuck in eternal stalemate. When Sonic got turned into Batman and Eggman changed focus from conquest to Sonic, it made them both feel weaker and overconfident that "they could kill each other at any moment, they just don't want".
@Gnidel Besides all you pointed out, a big difference between Sonic and Batman is that Batman's iconic rogues are supposed to genuinely need help hence them being largely sent to an institution rather than actual prison. If you accept that then it's easy to see how come Batman isn't killing them all (they're just men who need support and institutions to help them). That and enough of them aren't shown as full blown terrorists or enemies of the American state but just serial killers or thieves who should be well handled by just being locked up. None of that applies to Eggman. Sonic isn't fighting for society or care what example he sets. Eggman is oblivious to what he's actually doing to the world he's never been someone who's beyond being a hero if he wished to be one (after all, look at Gerald).
The thing is, neither question should be a thing that should be brought up in the first place. Sonic doesn't kill Eggman and vjce versa because this is a cartoon series for kids. They all run on cartoon logic, Eggman can be blown to Kingdom Come only to come back next week to enact his next dastardly scheme. Hell, Eggman survived being sucked into a black hole. If that didn't get him nothing will. This was only ever addressed as an artificial way to add conflict to the story, and it just doesn't work. As you pointed out, this exact issue has plagued cape comics for decades, and it's disheartening how IDW Sonic has learned NOTHING from those missteps.
The problem with this reasoning is that it misunderstanding Sonic's morality on a fundamental level. He's a simple guy who does as he pleases. He's not a superhero and doesn't abide to any higher responsibility or morals beyond whatever he feels is right. He doesn't try to kill Eggman, nor does he deliberately try to spare him. He just deals with the immediate threat and moves on. He'll fight Eggman as much as he needs to. Eggman always ends up retreating though, and Sonic isn’t the type to kill someone who's given up or is no longer a threat. He also doesn't show much mercy or try to save Eggman from his exploding machinery or collapsing bases. Trying to make a conflict or justification for why Sonic will or won't kill Eggman is stupid because it's inherently not understanding that Sonic genuinely just doesn't really care about all that.
@autobotstarscream765 Yeah since a lot of the Western takes didn't really include that and still don't. The DiC shows and comics all made him a full time superhero/rebel commander. Even when Archie rebooted itself to be more like the games they still had much of the established cast operate within the Freedom Fighters or other organizations.
Not even a fan of the IDW comics (though i have read up until the surge stuff and liked it for the most part) but some points you made rubbed me the wrong way. * Stories dont always have to have themes to be enjoyable. Characterisation, Action, and "Rule of Cool" are good enough sometimes (i.e. The Mario Movie and why people enjoy that movie despite it having minimal story) *I understand that seeing characters fight is not exactly "Sonic-like" (even though he fights a lot in the games lol) but the comics would be really boring if each chapter was just sonic running with nothing else *The characters dont "Just fight" there are several points in the story where action is shown through other methods. (and even when they are fighting the fight scenes are compelling) *Saying things are pointless in a story is reasonable occasionally but just saying "strip all the character except for Sonic, Knuckles, and Shadow and remove the robots defending the island" makes the story FAR more boring and uninteresting. Even if they "aren't necessary for the story" they make it more interesting rather then watching sonic (hedge)hog all the fame to himself. *32:45 Yes their mission was pointless but would you rather they cut the issue entirely and just had them sit around talking in the base until knuckles tells them? that makes no sense for them to do that and it makes the story more engaging. You then go on to say that the whole thing was pointless except for introducing a major character? (THAT MAKES IT NOT POINTLESS???) *33:35 You said the WHOLE plot line with Mr. Tinkerer meant nothing? Mr. Tinkerer shows that Robotnik can do good with his intelligence, it gives more depth to the character and also gives an origin for Belle later down the line and her ENTIRE motive. Saying he does nothing for the story is ENTIRELY wrong. Also saying just because they arent VITAL for the story means the characters should be cut from this part? Why would they introduce Tangle and Whisper later instead of building on their characters from the very start? It gives less time to develop them and make people like them before they take the limelight. *37:50 IDW sonic is serious a lot of the time but also quips and is sassy like mainline sonic. Sonic has always made quips and takes things seriously when he needs to. I'll give you a list of all the ones i thought of from the adventure games: (Where you going ya' big drip, i'll play with you some other time, oh look a giant talking egg, knucklehead, talk about a low budget flight..., I found you, faker [kind of a stretch], you've turned into a big time villain, doctor... [whilst amy is held at GUNPOINT] ) all im saying is that sonic makes quips when he's confident in his abilities or is currently winning a fight and takes things serious when necessary (meta era is a different story...) *39:00 would you prefer he not talk at all in the comics???? also he talks a lot during cutscenes so i have no clue what your even talking about here. are you talking about how during levels he doesn't talk because thats not where the plot is. *The points you make about Amy's characterisation was not a good take at all imo. She's finally getting to be written as a character who has more character traits then "I LOVE YOU SONIC" and i actually appreciate that. although i do think taking her in that direction of being a "nick fury" is a bit goofy, like you said, (she is like 12 or something), you make it seem like you'd rather her stay as a 2d character, whos personality runs down to wanting to marry sonic, just because that's in her source material and i disagree GREATLY with that. *I think him treating metal like a son is actually not only a good bit of humor (which you seemed to be opposed against entirely for some reason) but also gives metal and eggman more character even if its not like the adventure games. Characters dont have to remain the same all the time. Different versions and takes on characters are way more interesting then keeping them exactly the same imo. *I agree that shadow is TERRIBLY written. It's the part i hate the most about Ian's writing... *I agree with you on the point about "Sonic. Sonic the Hedgehog." i think it is kinda weird that Ian forgot that lol. Although i think you made it a bigger deal then it actually is. *44:44 "CAUSE WE'RE SONIC HEROES!!!" lol anyways i got bored of complaining about your complaining so im just gonna stop now. TL:DR just because its not written exactly how you want it to be written doesn't mean its flawed. I originally started writing this because i wanted to just lay out some stuff you got wrong but i kinda got a bit opinionated lol. Your opinions are your own so don't call the stories objectively bad or boring even if they are to you.
Listen nobody likes the mario movie because of the story it's because it's a new thing and after few movies people will complain about the just look at the mcu
@@zeanone9257 thanks for cherry picking one point out of my entire argument :) also your just wrong, people enjoy the Mario movie because its a fun adventure and because its Mario. not because its fresh.
Themes aren't mandatory, but without an actual message to serve as a connective tissue for the story then everything else is going to be weaker. You'd need to have the action and cool moments to be top notch to make up for that, otherwise the audience is going to feel like they're wasting their time. Thing is, IDW simply isn't top notch action/cool moments. Like, Pariah practically spells out how repetitive the action and pacing is, and it only makes the shallow nature of the comics all the more egregious. So yeah, IDW could really use some themes to strengthen the narratives they want to set up. Also Mr. Tinker was 100 percent pointless. He only appears for two issues before going back to being Eggman, with almost nothing about him being shown, only told. If they wanted to convince the audience that Tinker was capable of good, they needed WAY more time to flesh him out to show that his avtions are even genuine. Like, Eggman could've been faking the whole Tinker identity and literally NOTHING would change.
@@felixdaniels37 I'm sorry, I wont touch on everything u said but I HEAVILY disagree that tinker meant nothing to the story. Like what the poster said, tinker showed the vast amounts of goodness Eggman could do if he let go of the desire for conquest and settled somewhere. I also believe it built sonic from just stopping him to wanting to change him. As it seems sonic after that fight speaks to Eggman differently and is constantly hinting at how good he was as tinker. Even eggman in the metal virus arc thinks about it as he pauses for a bit when sonic talks to him in that 1 city (when sonic breaks the chance Eggman could control the zombots). It also starts the whole "should we put Eggman down" question and what should be done about him. Which has been brought up at times in the story even after the metal virus arc. We also get 3 new characters that come from that due to the actions of tinker. Bell, and with the metal virus? Surge and kit.
I quite like a lot of the sonic comics, and I like Ian Flynn, but I gotta say it's refreshing to see well constructed criticism against his writing that doesn't devolve into blindly hating the guy. Your critique was all very fair and I enjoyed hearing the positives you had to say as well. Another great video!
@@hype5456plenty of people just nitpick and constantly hate on Ian Flynn. Your just wrong if you think everybody who doesn’t like Ian Flynn is a 100% valid.
Yeah some people still believe he’s the reason the freedom fighters don’t appear in idw and send death threats to him. People give too much attention to those idiots.
@@unkownunkown2420 and plenty like to strawman people when they're critical of his writing like what you're doing. Not everyone that criticize him is out for blood
@@hype5456 I said plenty of people not everyone. Even in this comment section I have heard someone call him talentless which is just plain rude and isn’t a good way to deliver criticism. A lot of people have valid points against the guy but not everybody has those valid points.
I hope Daniel Barnes watches your Scrapnik Island segment, from someone like you who appreciates storytelling that's gotta be really high praise for someone who worked only a few written works for this comic series.
12:44 Moon Channel's video about the Sonic IP explains this. Basically the current owners of the IP (SegaSammy) view Sonic more as a "hero among children", a positive role model they can use to make their company seen more family friendly towards investors. SegaSammy has been pushing the Sonic brand to be more Super Hero-y since they acquired Sega in 2005. I believe the way Sonic is written in the comic's, recent games and the Paramount movies are related to this brand guidelines.
This makes no sense there are multiple games since 2005 where Sonic is written correctly and his character has barely changed in Japan. The more likely reason is Sega of America think that superhero characters appeal more to western audiences.
I feel like Ian did a lot better writing during archie comics run because the characters could actually grow and change and he had a base to pick up from and characters weren't supposed to be the real sonic. Ian flynn isn't a bad writer, he's just not the best thing to happen to sonic because he's better than other writers for sonic games. I'd say he can write a great sonic story, but not if people keep telling him he's already there. Also by the way you talked about this video I thought you were you going to flame him, but you were very reasonable and made a lot great points not a lot of people talked about. Great video as always!
Yeah man because the only thing that holds Ian Flynn back is the higher-ups because lack of creative freedom leads to your ideas not getting used in your own story that you want to tell because otherwise they'll just force you to write something that you didn't want to write and I think he did better when he had much more freedom with Archie than he did for IDW can it would have been better if the IDW comics was its own continuity
@@JustinJulian-00 it's also because he wants to be faithful to the games and so do the fans, you can see it post genesis archie where he starts to add more game elements to his stories. Then when the contract with idw was being made the best way to get it to sell to more fans was a complete fresh start. I bet he wanted it to be canon, but he probably didnt realize that the characters wouldnt be able to truly change over the story. Especially when he started making sonic frontiers, cause now he has to keep the characters the same without any big changes until the comics catch up to frontiers and dream team. This will then cause moments where he cant do anything crazy like enerjak, or a main character getting shot
I do not agree here. Ian has always had these issues, it's just that his flaws as a writer has only become more noticeable without the baggage of Archie obfuscating them.
@@JustinJulian-00 We need to stop blaming SEGA for the shit Flynn does. Flynn has free-reign over the comic. That's why his characterization is off, that's why shit is nonsensical, that's why the dialogue is cringe. SEGA has little to no input on the shit Flynn does. If they got him for writing the games, then they NEVER seen the comics. The reason you all blame SEGA is because when HE gets backlash for HIS writing, he pins the blame on SEGA. Why? Because fans want any and every reason to just bite the hand that feeds them, just like in the 2000's and 2010's. Flynn wants to parade around like he's the Jesus of Sonic, when in actuality he's not. He's a comic writer. He wrote for Archie Sonic and that's the only Sonic he knows.
@@Godiswithus3 And obviously need it. There are a lot of reviews online about this comics. Do you know what the best ones have in common? Despite the difference of opinion, none of them claim to know or be capable of creating something better. This kind of videos just remind me of the opinions of writers like Alan Moore and how fan culture is ruining entertainment or Garth Ennis and his annoyance at the rising of the “amateur expert” created by the Internet. This is what this writers think, take notes.
I entirely agree. IDW Sonic sincerely just feels like an excuse for SEGA to have a comic about Sonic to promote the franchise, but the writers, either because of mandates or because they don’t know what to do with Sonic, have to maintain this status quo and can’t progress any of the characters or world in any meaningful way. It’s just an action comic that exists to promote the Sonic brand and to push that brand into the multimedia franchise they want Sonic to be rather than existing to tell a meaningful Sonic story. I enjoy the artwork in many of these IDW issues, and there’s a few issues that do have a more meaningful story (Scrapnik Island is probably the best example of this imo) but overall it feels like Sonic junk food.
maybe Scrapnik Island is good because it's written by a good writer and the other aren't than just pushing the mandates as an cause into why the comic sucks
@@aymenjbailiMost of the mandates make sense. People need to stop blaming the mandates and start questioning authorial decisions instead of blaming everything from Sega. Plus, limitations breed creativity - within mandates there are still good stories being written, it’s just that IDW is not one of them (except Scrapnik Island)
I've actually been kind of unimpressed with the idw comic art. At least the actual pages, lots of the covers are very nice. But designs are all kind of blobby and the colors are too flat. Seeing the comic art of Archie preboot Flynn era makes me really want that art back. The designs were just top notch, super nice to look at, and the colors were super nice
Flynn's writing is what me and my other comic fan friends call "literalism" and it's how superheroes have been written for decades. There's a fixation on the fictional universe itself, the continuity and how the world works and internal consistency. Which is great fun for people who are extremely invested in the fiction, but almost always it's at the cost of storytelling, and to be honest literalist writers tend to not really be interested in things like themes and metaphor and character development. The story is almost completely incidental to the lore, it's there to "tell" the lore, and character progression is done solely with big emotional moments that tend to be completely unearned.
Personally enjoy it when there's a mix of both; a great interest in the lore and the world itself, but also something to tell. The fiction is incidental to the theme and not the other way around.
It’s like how George rr martin made fun of lotr bc we didn’t know Aragorn’s tax policy and then he couldn’t even finish his own story bc it turns out people care more about the actual story then they do about universe padding.
I'm so glad someone touched on Ian's writing these aren't the og sonic characters, game characters were mostly consistent from the begining sonic 1 to unleashed or black knight whichever was the latter one, especially in japanese version of the scripts. Then the life was sucked out of them and they turned into caricatures of themselves after colors and now they are replaced with Ian's version of the characters (which a lot of them feel like variations of the same character being the quippy marvel guy/gal sorry but it's what it's). You can especially feel it in frontiers these aren't the og sonic characters they haven't been since unleashed/black knight.
@@lemon5000-tj6nvtoo bad the cutscene animation and plots are set in stone, so even if the characterization is right, it still doesn't make any sense with what they're actually doing (like sonic being argumentative with Amy in frontiers)
As someone who starts to play sonic from colours and I genuinely like it till this day, colors story wise is my biggest grip of it. And my genuine fear that, "This might influence to the future games." from the moment I played the game is coming true... It pissed me off somehow.
@@alexbain8606yeah. But his portrayal of sonic isn't too outta character since the added snarkiness is usually in times when he's disturbed, irritated or bothered. Although there are still oofs to his handling that pariah pointed out in his story videos.
this video really breaks down why exactly i'm nervous about having ian flynn as the lead writer for sonic games in the future and having IDW be considered canon. "this doesn't feel like sonic". god, i miss shiro maekawa more and more every day.
People overthink this way too much. Any writer is fine honestly- there's always going to be some level of deviation when you get new blood in a team. We shouldn't be trying so hard to look for nonexistant patterns in this deviation to determine if this person, across multiple media, "belongs" or not though. You get caught up in overthinking media that you don't just accept it for what it is. When you say "This doesn't feel like Sonic", what you really mean is you're longing for older media that you already like and can't accept that newer media is never going to be exactly the same. Because it's newer media- they can't just pump out the same exact thing with minor tweaks and differences over and over again.
@@NicheXCC My point is, new directions happen. That's what deviation is. What Sonic is now isn't what Sonic was 20 years ago, and isn't what Sonic is gonna be 20 years from now in the future either. The mandates aren't even the problem. We don't have a full understanding of what the mandates are or how they change over time. We can't just say "Shadow sucked in a few pieces of media and Sonic isn't allowed to cry, so everything is now revolving around these two elements." Heck, this doesn't even necessarily apply to the games, as the games are more likely to influence the mandates. We don't know. And we really shouldn't be acting like we do know or that everything is doomed constantly. Sonic is currently pretty successful though and many people who aren't caught up on little things are pretty happy with it. Those who are upset over certain things are a vocal minority at best who don't realize it. Calling the IDW characters "OC's" is also not a mandate issue lol.
@@dailydelphox Sonic isn't a blank slate that can be molded into just anything. At it's core, it is an established concept where the media expresses particular themes. It's the most common through line with every Sonic game. Long running franchises should not change on a fundamental level to the point where they completely veer off from the core idea. "This doesn't feel like Sonic" is perfectly valid in this case because Ian Flynn fails to understand the fundamentals of Sonic storytelling and worldbuilding. It's not overthinking to say that what's coming out now is worse than what's coming out then. Lupin for example, has different writers for it's movies yet they all have some theme or message it's exploring and every main character is consistent to how they've always been portrayed. Same with stuff like Dragon Ball. Changing characters and the general identity on a fundamental level is going to be noticed by anyone and reducing it to "it's just your nostalgia". I don't want new media to feel exactly the same as the old media, I want the new media to feel like it actually understands the old media its continuing from and that's the heart of the issue.
There’s a difference between knowing a lot about a character and understanding a character. Flynn certainly is the former…which is also, unfortunately, what a lot of the fan base follows under.
Yeah, definitely the vast majority of the vocal minorities. It is annoying because it mostly leads to the detriment of the series and, honestly, I'm tired of this whole thing
The weird thing is I've heard him describe Sonic's character before and it was a near perfect description. He seems to understand what the character should be but never writes him like that.
@@kieronix4071 If this information is actually true, then he probably chooses to not write the characters the way they should. He did say that he didn't like how Amy was written in the whole series and wanted to write her in his own way, so maybe that's why. I'm not blaming him because Maekawa did a similar thing, so I'd be a hypocrite.
@@Kelps.mp4 I don't have a problem with writers having different takes on characters, as you said Maekawa did aswell. However, Maekawa just emphasised elements that were already parts of Sonic's character whereas Ian is changing or removing aspects of the characters.
About the speed, Sonic's speed is somehow special because he was the only one fixing time by running in Generations. He is just faster than the rest, its like in anime where the characters can literally break the rules of nature by punching really hard, for Sonic is running really fast and nobody is faster than Sonic.
Ending off with Scrapnik Island and that being considered great in this video is peakkkk. Because Scrapnik Island is PEAKKKK! It makes me want to see more of the Scrapnik's and this developed version of Mecha Sonic someday because of how cool they are design wise and the little moments and implied connections these robots have together as a made up family. And the fact that I'm in my FNAF phase lately really does make the story very cool to me! I love exploring sentient robots as characters that have their own agency. The perception and mind of Mecha Sonic was really so cool, I overall really enjoy how much Mecha Sonic characterization that this comic really got into.
I agree sonic isnt Batman he’s not someone who sees the good in everyone, if somebody is willing to change and ask for redemption then he will let them change and redeem themselves but he’s not gonna go on this quest where he tries to per-swayed people to change that’s not his character,he’s a guy that just looks forward and keeps on moving and if his enemies dont wanna change then he accepts it
I don’t know why they did that to Sonic. Sonic doesn’t kill Eggman because he believes he can become a better person. He does it because he’s a Chill dude who normally wouldn’t do something like that. Sonic is optimistic but there’s know way he’d be naive enough to believe that Metal Sonic would turn a new leaf without being reprogrammed.
that end frame of Sonic and Mecha standing just staring off in the distance feels so “Sonic” to me. it’s been done before (Riders for instance) but it just works so well. ironically they try to attempt something like this in Forces but it does not work at all. I’m interested in seeing the whole Scrapnik comic now.
28:37 I wanna add to this point. But, part of the reason the action in this comic sucks is because Sonic and co are just waay to good at smashing robots, so there’s no variety or stakes in these action scenes. At least with the early Archie days, the Freedom Fighters were outmatched by them, so the writers had to find creative ways to make them useful. Some characters would go on espionage missions, others like Sally used Nicole to hack into systems, Rotor built gadgets for the team, and all of the fighting was left to Sonic or Bunnie, but even then, they struggled. Apart from Tails being a genius, none of the other characters have distinctive talents to make them fight robots differently in IDW. Maybe their weapon of choice will change, but it ultimately amounts to the same results. It’s made even worse with the introduction of Wispons where any new OC can pack heat with a super powered alien.
Ironically in the Archie comics Sonic should be able to easily obliterate most enemies. Besides seeing the characters take advantage of their unique abilities to fight enemies is fun.
I don't agree with your action point lol?? Spoilers for beyond #50 Tangle uses her tail to fight differently just like Whisper uses wisps with her gun? It's pretty cool to see her tie up enemies and crush them thats different id say. It's slower and rougher than others too. Omega shoots the zombots with bullets and puts holes in them for example? Sonic gets pretty overwhelmed in #51 I think? Mostly running from them is that boring? Also Sonic fighting the deadly six was pretty evenly sided no? He had some bruises and got knocked around. Combat isn't just against robots here but I feel it's still varied enough to definitely not be boring like you said.
@@SwimSwayer Well, keep in mind that boredom is subjective. I'm aware that people enjoy the action in this comic regardless, but to people like Pariah and myself, I tend to find it pretty repetitive and uninspiring at times, especially in the first arc where it was just fighting robots in towns again and again. "Tangle uses her tail to fight differently just like Whisper uses wisps with her gun? " I know, which is why I said "Maybe their weapon of choice will change, but it ultimately amounts to the same results." It's not about how they fight in a fancy way, it's just that it's too easy. The badniks are rarely a threat unless the story wants them to be. Sure Sonic struggled in issue #51, but it doesn't negate all the other times he doesn't. He was still doing pretty fine through most of that arc. He only struggled because he got hurt and couldn't run. As for the Deadly six? Sure, I guess? I'll give you that one, but it's not really saying much when I've forgotten about that confrontation completely. After a while, a lot of the stuff in this comic becomes a blur to me. A "blue blur" if you will, lol. It's all too samey. If you find this stuff entertaining, more power to you though.
@@SwimSwayer "Tangle uses her tail to fight differently just like Whisper uses wisps with her gun? It's pretty cool to see her tie up enemies and crush them thats different id say. It's slower and rougher than others too." It still leads to the same result, though.
This is just my opinion, but Sonic would benefit more by having a manga series instead of an ongoing comic. The problem with the structure of comics is that these stories aren't supposed to conclude, and therefore the story cannot have anything significant to be resolved (ex: character growth). Secondly, comics these days are trying to have serious storytelling when the structure of comic books production just doesn't allow that. Originally, comic books were disposable stories that a person would buy at a magazine stand, and throw it away once they're done reading it. Given that the Sonic franchise wants to have real stories, the comic book structure isn't going to cut it and it just waters down what Sonic is all about. I would prefer if Sega instead invested time into searching a manga artist and writer who can tell a good story, with a beginning and end. An original story that is a one-off thing, separate from the games would be nice and a Sonic manga is overdue.
Real question why didn't we get a new sonic manga yet?it's over 2 decades since the last sonic manga and I'm still wonder why sega of japan didn't try to make a sonic manga?
@@sugarsmile7852 Japan doesn't really love sonic as much as the western side does Took until frontiers for them to care about him again so maybe it'll happen outside of minor stuff like sonic channel art Also now I'm reminded of that chao in space mini manga maekawa did in 2001
Yeah, and what would happen to those who prefer Western comics over Weeb shit??? Also, endless manga and Western comics with a beggining and end exists, you weeb
@@CV100-jv6ht”omg who would prefer japanese stories that can actually stay true to the original characters that were made by japanese people than localized american bullshit!”
You would think Sega would at least pay someone to translate the very few mangas we do have and release it in another sonic collection type of thing, since we now have to pretend archie never existed
If you watch Danny Phantom, has a lot of nods to Spidey. Danny’s wit and banter. Villain like Vlad, Valarie, and Dan Phantom being parallels to characters like Venom and the Green Goblin.
17:16 I think you had already mentioned this in your sonic heroes video but originally bean bark and dang were gonna be a team in sonic heroes, it doesn’t make it any better but it might justify why they made them a team here.
If fang, bean and bark got added in heroes, their characters will be rebooted. Also, the concept of the hooligans was made before shiro maekawa revealed that they could’ve been a team in heroes.
9:46 wow never noticed this cameo For context: the two hedgehogs are Silvers parents from evan Stanley's fan comic "ghosts of the future" and theres another really furry hedgehog in crowd at the back called zeilo from a fancomic called "murder of me"
Nobody asked for this, but diversity of opinion and discussion are both healthy, so here’s my two penny’s worth on this matter as something of an outsider. Strap in folks, this one’s a long one! I am not what I would call a Sonic fan. I did not grow up with the games, and nor do I keep a finger on the pulse of the franchise beyond general awareness of its existence. However, I am prone to sometimes falling down the rabbit holes of various things, and lately I’ve just so happened to tumble down the one belonging to this blue borrowing mammal. As I fell, I thought I’d poke my nose into the IDW comics just for a laugh, but was very pleasantly surprised with them, as I found them to have been put together with more thought than I expected. Happening upon this video, and feeling in the mood for a respectful (albeit possibly tangential) argument, I want to raise a couple of points for consideration, if I may. Firstly, a lot of your complaints revolve around the idea that the characters, ideas, stories and etc. are ‘not Sonic’, because they do not align with the early, original versions. Now, Sonic, as I understand it, is a big franchise that’s been around for a while and has been subject to such things as localisations and changes of direction. Whether or not these are for better or for worse is subjective, and if you think the latter then you are fully entitled to do so. However, then going on to say that these things are ‘not Sonic the Hedgehog’ or ‘have no place in Sonic’, I think is a leap. A lot of long running characters and franchises change over time due to the nature of their being, and have done for longer than you might think, but this idea that the original is the purest version is a more modern one. Take, for example, Batman, seeing as he came up in the video. Batman, as he first appeared in 1939, lacks a lot of the aspects that people have come to associate with the character. For one, this Batman kills, and has few qualms about doing so. He also lacks: a batmobile, a batcave, a butler, a sidekick, most of his gadgets, and the Joker. He smokes too. His parents are still dead though. Another example is Sherlock Holmes. There have been many different adaptations of Holmes over the years, and people argue about which is the ‘definitive’, but even with the original stories the character shifted for the sake of Conan Doyle’s ease of writing. A Study in Scarlet, the first Sherlock Holmes novel, depicts him as an almost inhuman calculating machine, knowing very little about anything that will not directly aid him in solving crimes. This is because the first half of the novel is dedicated to his efficiency and logic behind finding the murderer, whereas the second half is written entirely from the murderer’s perspective, detailing the love, loss and betrayals that led him to commit his crimes; the novel contrasts the cold Holmes against the emotionally driven murderer. None of the subsequent Sherlock Holmes stories were like this, and instead focused solely on Holmes solving crimes, and as a result the detective’s character changes a little. In the very next story, in fact, Conan Doyle expanded his knowledge and shows him quoting philosophy. ANOTHER example (bear with me, I’m having fun!) is Robin Hood. Legends of ol’ Robin date back centuries, but the earliest ones are not of a heroic outlaw fighting injustice and caring for the poor. Instead, they are about a mischievous little man who runs around the forest playing pranks on those who walk through. He doesn’t even have a bow and arrow. My point being is that the original version of a long running character is not necessarily the purest. Things that come to define them often come or are expanded on later. Of course, if you prefer the original version and think that is what should be strived for going forward, that’s your prerogative. Saying that anything but that version is incorrect though is reaching. Secondly, there’s the matter of adaptational changes. When adapting something from one medium to the other, sometimes changes have to be made to accommodate it. The example I like to use is that of movies adapted for the stage. In a film with close up shots and moments of quiet, an actor can employ subtle facial expressions to convey emotion. In a theatre, where you are playing to a large crowd, you have to go a little over the top-perhaps throw your arms about-for the people at the back. Similarly, in a game with cutscenes, visuals and voice acting, you can do things that you can’t in a comic of speech bubbles and static images, which means a speedy and carefree character like sonic can be hard to translate. Therefore, certain poses or bits of dialogue that they might use in a game cutscene have to be changed from being 1:1 in order to still convey what you’re trying to get at. Sonic might well quip a lot more in this medium whilst performing stunts so as to tell the reader that he’s having fun and is a bit carefree. Naturally, if you think the translation has failed in its purpose, then none of what I’ve just said on that matters, but I felt it was worth bringing to the table. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, whilst listening to the video I couldn’t help but feel you were criticising the comics for failing to do something that they were not really trying to do in the first place. You spoke in the video a lot about plot: how it isn’t progressed, how it doesn’t make sense, what the point of the story is, etc. Now, I’m an aspiring writer, and I agree that plot can be very important, but I put it to you that it is not always the be all and end all. Writers, readers and narratologists have argued about what is most important in narratives for years, some saying like you that it’s the plot, others saying it’s the characters; some saying the plot is for the characters, and others saying that characters are for the plot. The takeaway is that comics, like other art forms, is not always about the events taking place or character arcs. Sometimes it’s purely about exploring a character or idea or theme, sometimes it’s about posing a question that you might or might not answer, sometimes it's about something else. I’ll cut to the chase: I think that the intention behind these comics is that they are all part of one long soap opera. A very different kind of soap opera-one set in the world of anthropomorphic animals that gotta go fast instead of washed-up celebrities having affairs in pubs and apartments -but a soap opera nonetheless. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing; despite the stigma’s revolving around certain genres, very few are bad in and of themselves. The IDW comics are more focused on the relationships between characters and the world they live, putting them in new places and situations to see how they react. It is, in that way, like a playground where different bits of Lego get mixed up, but rather than that being a bad thing, I think that’s what draws a lot of people to it. Let’s be honest: the comic is spin off material, and no way would it be allowed to make earth shattering changes to the status quo or have plot points carry into the games. If it is canon, then it’s secondary canon, used to fill in the gaps. With that in mind, why have them try to do what the games do but with pictures when you could have them doing something else? The games wouldn’t have long to focus on soap-opera stuff before they had to get back to gameplay, so the comics step up to give that to those who want it. I’m not trying to convert you to the comics or say that you’re wrong for disliking them. But I would argue that you shouldn’t be too dismissive of them as nothing more than ‘trash’. (Thanks to anyone who read all that. Just wanted to get it off my chest, y’know? Feel free to disagree or discuss below. You don't have to do it in long form!)
I love seeing outsiders opinions on Sonic, they always have so much interesting stuff to say. Let me talk from my own experience as a Sonic fan my whole life. The Sonic franchise is a big cycle, every time it changes, a generation of Sonic fans gets mad. Originally it was all cartoony and simple, then the franchise changed to a darker tone with more realistic aesthetics, people who liked the simpler good ol' days demanded that it was changed back, so they did (at least, how the public perceived it), and then the fans from the darker, more realistic days demanded it was changed back to that, so they did, and the cycle goes on. Sonic is a character that is able to adapt itself to whatever direction the series wants to take. In the 90's, there were 2 versions of Sonic from the different divisions at SEGA, the japanese version (from the classic games) and the american version (from other media like cartoons and comics) the japanese version was more serious, he had an attitude but he was more subtle about it, the american version was exaggerated to the extreme, he was snarky, used a lot of slang, was very cocky, etc. In the 2000's, when the games started having more dialogue, the brand was unified, and so they brought some of these american elements to the japanese version creating a sort of mix of versions, which the fanbase calls "Adventure Sonic." In the 2010's, to accomodate the more lighthearted approach, Sonic was now more of a cartoon character, his snarkiness instead of being used for cool factor, was now used for comedy, which translated to the main cartoon at the time, Sonic Boom. And then we arrive at IDW, and i'm sure that this is the version you're most familiar with so i'll waste no time. The Sonic fanbase is composed of various generations, so by their point of view, the version that they grew up with is the only version that matters, so any version that comes after is just a shallow imitation of the one that they grew up with, which is why it seems you can't please the Sonic fanbase, because it's made up of very different publics with very different tastes, and a lot of them are just afraid of change. And yet they can't just stop consuming it, they've become too attached, so all they have left to do is complain about it, until one day, everything goes back to how it used to be.
@@Rainyar4779 Thanks for your reply! I gleaned some of that history from my decent already, but thanks for expanding on it. You're definitely right that there's a generational factor at play, and people can't help but stick to and prefer what they know sometimes. I think what has also compounded this issue for Sonic and characters/franchises in the modern day, as opposed to older ones like Sherlock Holmes and Robin Hood that I mentioned, is that thanks to the internet and greater emphases on preservation, people now have more access to what came before. You can go back and play old games, watch old movies, find and read old books on demand, and connect with people from the other side of the planet to see what their version of something is, so making comparisons and tracking changes is naturally far easier. In this kind of landscape for storytelling, an idea of permanence has arisen that wasn't necessarily as strong before. We live in a world of consistent fictional timelines and 'cinematic universes', and people search for the 'definitive' or 'true' or 'lore accurate' (whatever the heck that means) versions of things. The way that people consume media is closer now to how archaeologists and historians study the real world, were you ARE striving for truth and facts, when beforehand I think a lot more people were open (whether they were aware of it or not) to fiction being altered and retconned and what-have-you. I think a symptom of this is that certain entries into franchises can completely derail them in the minds of the audience, whereas looking back it was possible for certain movies/books/episodes to be quietly forgotten about and following things could continue as normal. Sorry, I'm being all tangential again. I'm not saying that I think this new landscape is bad, and I'm definitely not saying that freedom of information and preservation are wrong (I'm really, really, really all for it, believe me!), but I do think it is different and had an interesting effect on fiction, in a similar way to how the invention of the printing press did. I find it kinda fascinating really, and perhaps that's what made me fall into this rabbit hole in the first place.
@@jajproductionsfruitcakefil8489 No no, it's fine, in fact it's amazing to be able to talk to someone who has so much stuff to say as i do. Thanks to my autism, whenever i like something i make sure to do as much research on it as i can, in fact when i was little i used to watch videos detailing the whole lore behind Sonic, not just the in game lore, the real life lore of how he was made! Nowadays i've been fascinated by another side of Sonic, the comics. Both the in universe lore and the real life story behind it all is so interesting to me. I have a whole digital collection of both the Archie comics and the Fleetway comics, i've been trying to get a hold on the IDW comics but the thing is, with both of the earlier comics, they're not being sold anymore, so i have no problem in just downloading them for free, but with IDW, i wanna support the team behind it, so i'm making an effort into getting physical copies of them, and right now the only one i got is Imposter Syndrome, and i absolutely love it! One thing i didn't mention in my original reply is how you described the IDW comics, and i just wanna say i love that description a lot, it perfectly describes Ian Flynn's writing in general, ever since the Archie days he uses method acting for his stories, he basically becomes the characters, and that's what i love about it. The characters are always the main priority, and that's a great writing principle for Sonic, a series known for its characters. Really i don't care what people say, i love Sonic comics and i'll stand by that opinion as long as i can!
The reason Ian Flynn’s characters don’t sound like themselves is because they literally have the same speech patterns as Ian Flynn himself. If you listen to his podcast and then read his work it’s like yeah, this sounds like it’s coming from the mouth of Ian Flynn, not from the mouth of the character.
I really hate it when people say that Ian Flynn's versions of the characters is somehow a natural progression of the game characters when they are just different characters.
It’s very easy to fudge character growth when there’s a whole six months of ‘life without Sonic’ unaccounted for. Any time a character doesn’t make sense or reflect their old personality, you can just say “The war changed them.”
@@LeafRazorStorm Then again, they don't really feel like they experienced pure war for 6 months without their savior in Forces, so making them feel like they did in Frontiers is weird.
That's... kinda just how writing characters goes though. The Sonic fandom just never seems to understand this. They think across a massive franchise with countless stories, it needs to be consistent to a point where everything always feels familiar- but that's impossible to ask for any franchise. New writers are gonna have new ideas, there's gonna be burnout or new interests, creative new directions, experimentation and exploration of old and new ideas. We can't just throw up our hands because "It's not the Sonic I want" while alluding to some old media as some holy grail that should be copy and pasted with minor adjustments each time like a Pokemon game. Honestly, a lot of Sonic fans yearn for the things they already like instead of realizing new things are never going to be the same as the old things, even if they DID try to aim for that. Creating stories isn't that simple. When writing a new story, pre-existing characters are inevitably going to be different characters. As they get used more, the illusion we've created in our heads that these are living, breathing people with consistency falls apart, as we realize these are characters instead who are prone to change far more often than real people are.
@delaneyelekes8660 "but that's impossible to ask for any franchise" WRONG. The characters in One Piece have been consistent in every movie, game and everything else they've ever been in outside the original manga for 20+ years. It's not impossible. All it takes is for someone to give a shit. Sonic has been inconsistent since his inception because Sonic Team didn't care to keep his character consistent across the globe for marketability reasons. It's an old practice that has slowly died out since the mid 90s and Sonic is still suffering from the effects of that old practice. Now the original vision of Japanese franchises are treated with way more respect and we just want the same for Sonic.
@@mrbanks456 Bingo. Typically, the creators pen some kind of exhaustive character/story bible for the series BEFORE handing it off to freelancers, but Sonic had no such luck. Now the current team is stuck trying to weld all these various depictions of Sonic into one cohesive character again, and it seems NOBODY on staff can agree on which parts should be highlighted and which should be ignored.
You touched on a huge difference between Western takes on Sonic and Eastern takes on Sonic. Western takes as a rule make Sonic a full superhero ala DC/Marvel's big names and/or a rebel commander ala Luke Skywalker who for either operates within a full time team/unit/paramilitary. Flynn being someone who certainly got into the franchise from the Western interpretations applies this to how he writes for Sonic even and especially in IDW. Same goes for others in IDW's staff. What IDW Sonic is "trying to say" overall is the following: A. Trying to "examine" the "rules" of the games like how Batman and other superhero works keep on doing so for their "rules" (see all the debates over whether superheroes should kill villains or whther they should have more oversight since they're vigilantes or if they do enough to counter society's issues). IDW Sonic uses how Sonic hasn't killed Eggman yet to make them do their version of a Batman v. Joker dynamic (hero who's a paragon of light or justice or whatever refuses to kill ridiculously vile villain which doesn't fit the games' characterizations). B. Building on the above using characters like Starline and Surge to rant about the status quo of Sonic (which comes off like Flynn and Co. complaining about how they can't just make Archie again where you had Julian getting killed off and replaced by another Robotnik who upgraded himself into Adventure Eggman, Sonic fighting to preserve a monarchy that locks up protestors, long lost parents, the Echidnas being more or less Kryptonians, doppalgangers replacing the cast secretly etc. ) apparently has. Eggman in game canon is not Dr. Weil or the Joker (or Jack Horner or any other "goofy looking villain is actually darkness incarnate/super vile"). He is supposed to believe what he's doing will upgrade the world into a utopia he can protect while being ignorant/oblivious to what he's doing to the world (he's meant to represent Man after all). There is no real evidence he has a notable bodycount and while he's fine with killing he's not shown as making genocides like he's doing shopping or making wastelands for the sake of it (see Western takes but namely SatAM with Archie especially Archie written by Flynn). Flynn just sees Eggman as how he wrote him in Archie (where he was a Robo Hitler crossed with The Joker) and isn't impressed with how Eggman is characterized in the games (hence IDW Sonic having the "Eggman never plans ahead" which was also done to make Starline fallout with Eggman). And while Eggman would insist on defeating Sonic in a way that shows his ability there's no real evidence he would flat-out prevent a henchmen from defeating Sonic just from that henchmen not doing so in the approved way (again, Eggman isn't the Joker). Sonic is not a superhero. Sonic does not face villains in game canon from society's justice or duty or responsibility but rather from the villains offending his values or bothering him. His bios say that the adventures he does are a distraction in his life. Sonic has no real code against killing he holds himself (and others going from Batman) to and doesn't worry if he loses the tolerance of proper authorities or care about setting an example for anyone (those three are the in-universe answers to superheroes not killing villains while the out-of-universe answers are all regulations). While Sonic has no issue with villains redeeming themselves he doesn't reliably go out of his way to redeem anyone (not even for Merlina, he didn't actually to redeem her when she was an active threat), that's far more associated with Amy and arguably even Knuckles (see Sonic X saying that Knuckles believes anyone can change hence him being willing to trust Eggman saying he'll stop being a villain). Don't confuse Sonic not being bothered to kill Eggman with actively sparing him, what actually happened is that Sonic just doesn't need to do more than smack around Eggman to make him stop whatever he's doing and once Eggman is downed Sonic just moved on to do something else. Again, not a superhero.
@@galten7361 a nice write up. Ian making Eggman say "rodent" was what cued me in that he couldn't (or wouldnt, which is far worse) separate game Eggman from Archie. That's when I stopped actively following reviews.
@SuperboyLilly No they aren't genocide. Eggman wouldn't have done anything to stop Gerald's plan in Adventure 2 if he was going to use the Eclipse Cannon to kill off the world and there's no evidence Unleashed had a notable bodycount with the countries still livable as full societies rather than being post-apocalyptic.
i really hope theres some sort of way we can propel Daniel Barnes into becoming the series writer, because genuinely skrapnik island was god damn beautiful.
Yes, please, anyone but Flynn and Stanley. Stanley's a great artist and I hear she's actually nice. But man, she can't write. Flynn has no talents of ANY sort so I just don't get why he's part of this.
@@CliffNerply I get personally not liking Flynn’s writing, but calling him talentless is way too rude and not a healthy form of criticism. That’s just being an asshole
@@CliffNerply Say what you will about Ian but he's trying his damn hardest to add interesting stuff to this franchise, I think he could do it better but I respect the shit out of the hustle when even the guys making the games have given up at this point
Daniel Barnes is an entitled idiot who publicly criticized the work of his own colleague (Flynn) instead of giving criticism behind doors which is what anyone does with a colleague. Also he said that his stuff was better than doing so. Yes, i believe he knows how to write somewhat better than Flynn, but he is still a total idiot and a disrespectful person
People who want some one new to take over always has it blow up in their faces. Daniel wrote one mildly decent mini and suddenly there's people who want him to take over. History repeats itself is all I'm saying.
@@ralsei3157 Yeah, but at least Daniel Barnes is actively trying to get better and talking about it. Few weeks ago, he was responding to a person talking about his characterization of Sonic on Scrapnik Island, and he admitted that he could done it more game accurate.
Also recently when I gave some criticism to IDW's structure on how the stories progress, he liked my comments. I mean, the guy is watching and trying to get better.
People wanted literally anyone else to take over because for a long time, Sonic games had basically no story what so ever. Flynn is a step in the right direction, but not ideal. Personally, I just want Shiro Maekawa back. Then everyone would be happy.
It's really disappointing how fast IDW Sonic peaked. They jumped the shark SO HARD with the end of the Metal Virus arc, you can't just go from double super chaos control warping a liquid metal sickness into the sun, to "get the Deadly Six"
Once again, your analysis reveals things that I've always understood at some level but have never been able to articulate. Your explanation of how the stories are written like super hero comics is exactly the problem I've had with them this whole time. Good stuff.
some really good and well thought out points here. tbh people are so in love with the idea of story in terms of the individual story beats and twists that happen in them that i feel like actual storytelling gets left by the wayside far too often
Ian's sonic feels like an extension of Roger's Sonic, which has been in the series for so long that people assume that's how Sonic acts. I think people see him as closer to the game Sonic because it's the Sonic they grew up with (me included) but just not as cringe/annoying, so it must be accurate!
@@kirbypopstar2485 I don't even mind RCS Sonic, I just wish he was better executed. You can absolutely have a quippy, jokester Sonic, but the jokes need to either be funny, or endearing enough to not really matter when it isn't. Also lean on on the concept more beyond just word jokes; have him lean into more physical comedy even in battle, like how he is in Sonic the Fighters. Basically have him act like a Looney Tunes character that's just as interested in humiliating his foes over just simply stopping them.
If that characterization has “been in the series for so long”, then that *IS* how Sonic acts. I prefer the old Sonic, but he has developed into something else at this point.
39:33 Now I see it: Isn Flynn's Sonic is how people (mainly americans) believe Sonic used to be, because their only frame of reference is the Sega of America version of the Sonic brand in the 90's. Because if this, every attempts to deviate from this americanized image of Sonic towards a more japanese/original version makes people dismiss Sonic, saying the brand changed for the worst, when in actuality the brand reverted to its original intended meaning.
Well yeah, when this is the sonic they grew up with of course they're going to cling to it. American sonic matters to a lot of people just like japanese sonic really matters to Pariah. Though I will say in most of IDW his character has been pretty flat compared to even post-reboot archie where he at least showed emotion. And with Pre-boot Archie there is no contest since he's actually allowed to develop.
@@endosaurus1404well I would say sonic not developing is perfectly fine, considering sonic doesn't do that. The issue is that he's just... someone else
@@igirjei3717 I see no reason why Sonic cannot develop when its in its own comic continuity. Especially when done well. That and him interacting with other characters with arcs as well.
twitter makes me feel insane for how many of the readers on there act like amy's personality and her dynamic with sonic in the idw comics is totally normal
Facts bro. I have the same problem with silver in these comics. Like wth is an uwu adorkable softie? That just seems like modern Disney/MCU character writing. This is not how naive and immature works with silver. We already have the chaotix for dorky characters. He's honestly just as bad as shadow in my opinion.
@@Exmotable I'm afraid that people are just too dense and ignorant to understand these issues. We're better off doing our own iterations, rather than sticking to how they were, prior to the 2010s.
That's a really interesting point, how sonic games are mostly about going fast and adventuring, yet a lot of these comics are mostly action-y fight sequences. I've always thought of the combat as one of the weakest parts of the sonic games, yet they highlight that in these. Weird.
@ShazyShaze A lot of it has to do with not just taking notes from superheroes but also trying to be a shonen battle manga (and the dubbed animations of them at that). How many times have you heard that Sonic is just DBZ with furries while ignoring all the other works Sonic took notes from?
@@zigzagintrusion Yeah, but why highlight combat at all? It's consistently the worst part of sonic games, and usually runs pretty antithetical to sonic as a character.
I'm glad more people are waking up to Flynn's writing instead of treating him like the second coming of Christ or something. I remember back when Frontiers came out that his fanboys went nuts if you called it anything but perfect just because he was on the story. His Archie days were pretty kickass for the most part, but those days are over. And this is coming from a Surge fan lol
@@shinkai9kami162 Me too! I thought Surge and Kit were the best thing to happen in the main story by far. I'm really just interested in who they were before Starline took their lives away from them.
@@MetalWeebChaos I'm so fcking glad seeing people realizing IDW comics aren't that good. The story feels more flat after the metal virus saga (not to say it already had fundamental flaws and I'm tired people screaming "metal virus saga is the best story of the franchise"), the characters not only are starting to feel more one dimensional over time but also being not 100% themselves (yeah I'm looking at you Amy Rose and Sonic), all of that. I'm just reading the comics because 1) Visually everything look beatiful and 2) The villains who are peak imo like Starline (even if he's practically a recycled character from Archie, u know that bald Eggman familiar), the iconic duo Rough and Tumble (I like how simple but memorable they are) and of course... Surge (even if it's, again, not a 100% original character).
@@criticalbuddy524 Some of the characters are interesting, yeah. Unfortunately they stand out more than Sonic and co. in a series named after the main character himself. There can be characters more interesting than Sonic, but Sonic has to be fun too. That's why people were so fond of Archie and Fleetway. The art looks great too, but without a good story or decent writing it's just there to look pretty instead of being immersive. It feels like a modern day Sony game in that regard; beautiful yet bland at the same time. It's odd.
It’s simply because his writing was better than trash of the meta era and due to that most people didn’t want to criticize or notice flaws because they have been starved so long of good content. Not to mention certain youtubers hyping up his stuff. It’s about time people get out of this hype phase and come back to reality.
1:00:20 Y'know, I never thought shadow looked too similar to sonic besides some few design coincidences, but this single panel made me honestly quesiton if they just traced over an Sonic model but with shadow's color pallete, because his quils are softer looking, more close together instead of spread out, his face looks more pressed together like normal sonic meanwhile shadow's LOOKS broader because his quillss are more spread out
The more I hear about these kinds of generic Sonic stories, the more I want Sonic stuff that's written like Lupin III or One Piece. Daniel Barnes being a fan of both of those series is yet another sign that he could write really great stuff for Sonic if given the chance!
Could you please elaborate on what aspects of Lupin III and One Piece you'll like Sonic to take notes of? Because I'll love to your perspective on why the franchise needs that
@@RightNowsReverie One Piece follows the general structure of the main characters visiting a new place, getting to know the locals and their often tragic situation, and helping them out by beating the bad guy before moving on to the next island. Sounds a lot like the stories from classic Sonic, doesn't it? Would fit pretty well imo Lupin III also has a somewhat similar thing going on, especially Miyazaki's works in the franchise. Lupin and his gang often find a person in trouble and help them out in one-off episodes. The series in general is also pretty light on continuity, which is something Sonic does as well. A lot of episodes are also very character-driven, having a deeper exploration of the main characters and such. Both series also have an underlying theme of freedom throughout (One Piece more so than Lupin, but Lupin still does have it) which is also what Sonic originally was all about So, yeah, I'd like for Sonic stories to take notes from those in regards to the general tone and storytelling structure. I was very surprised to see Scrapnik Island does this and now I want to read it!
@@patofanatico reminds me of a cartoon, Wonder Over Yonder. While that show is more silly and not very shoneny compared to lupin iii or one piece, it's got a similar premise of two characters traveling the galaxy and visiting planets while also saving them from this show's bad guy who.. just so happens to be narcissistic and childish.
Following logic for a worse outcome that will be harder, ergo more interesting, for the characters to crawl out of is always benefitial. It's just higher-up fear to dare.
HAhahahahaha Ian Flynn and caring about logic? Hahahahahaha This guy doesn't care about "logic" anymore the moment it gets in the way of what ever dramatic bs he currently wants to write. Metal Virus breaks its own logic not just every issue but often even with in the same issue and the rules for the world and the logic behind character actions are twisted and turned into what ever is currently needed to brute force the story he wants to happen to happen.
The thing about the "mandates" is that they aren't really something SEGA does for everybody, multiple writers, (including the one currently in charge, Evan Stanley,) have stated SEGA have been very accommodating and even liked their ideas, while with Ian, he constantly complains. This isn't because of some corporate desire for control, but because Ian's ideas are awful. The infamous Shadow scene was caused by Ian wanting Shadow to destroy the city with Chaos Blast before being infected. SEGA just told him to do something else because they thought that was too violent. That's it, no one said "make Shadow an enormous asshole," Ian did that himself. So SEGA keeps him on a tight leash because his ideas are horrible, look it up and you'll get countless more examples.
bro this isn't true at all lmao. they wouldn't hire ian if they thought his ideas were terrible, they just change things they want on brand or in character. where did you even get this information from?
@@CanaldoZenny ...no? Sega isn't going to bring another person with terrible writing they hate like Ken Penders to write the new Sonic comic. They wanted Ian because they liked his ideas. The author's recognizablility doesn't even matter here, especially when majority of the people who buy the comic are children who don't know who Ian Flynn is.
As person who read all Archie, where he had all creative freedom in the world, i don't believe you. Only information i could find about that saying that Flynn planned to Shadow take off the inhibitor rings and get infected while saving evacuating civilians.
You know, I see this idea pushed by people who don't pay attention to the fanbase that the Sonic 06/Dark Age fans are these overly aggressive people who try to strongarm people into liking whatever they like and getting very prickly and defensive when challenged; not only have I never experienced this with any 06 fan, after skimming through this comment section I'm more willing to believe it's another subset of Sonic fans. The kind that seem to really like Ian Flynn.
What direction would you take Amy as a character without just reverting her into an annoyance that just sometimes shows up and harasses Sonic, or constantly thinks and talks about him?
He already put his stance on it: And he wants her to be a worthless normal girl that gets to stay in the background until the emotional moment happens, if at all. Is it surprise to me that I see nobody other than Amy fans understand this character?
I'm not sure if you've spoken about them before, forgive me if you already have, but have you read translations of the Sonic Channel stories? I'd be interested to know what you think of them. I think the story that went on for the entirety of 2023 was very fun, and I frequently revisit the 2021 stories as great characterisation examples.
@@Rainyar4779 damn lol, they're favourites of mine. do you know where i can hear his thoughts on them? i'm curious to know what he doesn't like about them.
@@aaphant He said it various times in his livestreams whenever someome has asked about it. As to why he doesn't like them, i imagine it has something to do with the stories not having much substance.
@@Rainyar4779 yeah that's fair, they are pretty short so there's not much room for depth. i'd be super interested to see eitaro toyoda handle an entire game's plot someday
43:08 Eggman in these american comics has a long history of being probed into this pseudo-father/mentor figure. Some people even joke abd call him Egg Dad. I believe Ian Flynn even said Eggman is his favorite character to write for. In one of the Twitter Takeovers they even made a joke about it eith Eggman giving some fatherly advice. Ian, what are you trying to say?
It feels like the comics being part of the canon ended up being a millstone around the series' neck. They can't do anything too crazy that would shake-up the status quo since it might undermine what Sonic Team wants to do, and that includes the comic-original characters now. Sega and Iizuka had to give the OK to everything about Tangle, Whisper, Surge, etc. (Yuji Uekawa even gave notes on Whisper's mask), so Sonic Team can use the characters for anything they want. The comics now are just fun adventures starring funny animal characters, like the Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck comics. And those comics can get pretty raw (particularly with Scrooge), but you're only going to get a certain amount of thematic depth.
I'd probably give Flynn a little more credit, considering he is subject to restrictions while Filoni has nearly complete creative control of his enterprise and still makes dreck like the Ahsoka show. Plus, Filoni is infamous for disregarding the Expanded Universe, while Flynn seems to have a genuine desire to preserve Sonic's "canon," insofar as he is capable. In terms of writing talent and artistic approaches, though, it's a really apt comparison. They are both so dry.
26:33 This is an excellent point. I hate when people try to use this as a counterargument because they forget that this is all fiction. You can just write a scenario to play any way you want. There’s no “one specific” way to write a plot line as logic, power scaling, or whatever McGuffin you wanna pull from your ass fluctuates between writers. If you get 5 writers to write one plot line, you’ll get 5 different results. That’s why the whole “it was necessary to be written this way” was always BS to me. I’ve written stories before in a collaborative setting with other people, and things always tend to change based on what others believe should happen.
28:50 To comment on that and give you some information: In Matttt's video on the Archie comics (which is a great video that I highly recommend. I'll link it below.), Ian reveals he grew up in a theatrical household and studied greatly in the English language; but admired a lot of nerd culture as well. Matttt mentions how surprised he was of Ian rambling about how passionate he was for E.E. Cummings, Rob Liefeld, Shakespeare, Fullmetal Alchemist, Vonnegut, and The Dark Tower in pretty much the same conversations. Ian even mentions his love for the stories from Ken Penders, he read when growing up. His upbring for drama also influenced how he writes. Using the approach of method acting; instead of writing a character, he becomes that character and speaks in their voice. So, with all of that, I don't know how that could be linked with how he writes for IDW. Of course, he did bring his love for Rob Liefeld. Leading me to guess that you were right about him being a superhero fan and the genre influencing his writing. But the rest doesn't add up (or at least to my knowledge. To any of you reading this who happens to spot something in the works Ian's passionate about, that I mentioned, which parallels with IDW; feel free to let me know). Especially with his "method writing". Doesn't make sense for him to be writing in the voice of Sonic, yet don't understand Sonic himself. [Matttt's Archie Sonic video: th-cam.com/video/xzor44qgKnA/w-d-xo.html]
A guy in this comment section said that Ian's writing feels more like he is writing himself talking instead of a fictional character, so that's maybe something.
Your problems with sonic comics are the problems of ALL COMICS. The marvel/DC comic experience is... allot of things happen but... it don't mather at all? No character progression?? Status quo reset?
@masonasaro2118 Marvel just hates Spider-Man and either thinks Spider-Man fans hate him too (they sorta do tbh lol) or hate both the fans and the character equally
The reason Tails uses the Cyclone is because we gotta show how he totally should've kicked Phantom Chaos' ass in Forces and taken down Eggman's army himself from the start and how STUPID Sonic Team was for letting him BETRAY his flawless character development from the Adventure games
Wasn't a betrayal when his best friend had died and it became basically mentally unstable which is kind of accurate for his character yeah they tell you tales has lost it and that's the reason he couldn't fight it's not the only time this has happened
I like the fang bean and bark trio because there's a severe lack of villains who aren't robots. Character vs. character is always more exciting. It's also heavily alluded to multiple times that bark isn't actually a bad guy. In the fang series it's basically insinuated that bean and bark are just along for the ride.
@Rhyme_Time They just failed to make a big enough rogue's gallery. You can make way more villains just sticking with the themes of the Classic Era (like hunters/outdoorsmen).
@@galten7361 Witchcarters and the Battle Bird Armada worked in that regard, but they were treated as one offs rather than a set piece to alternate or even combine with Eggman. This tendency was awful from the 2000s and it's starting to return after they tone that down in the 10s (except Boom).
The metal virus could've done a "true goodness can't be corrupted" thing with Super Sonic and Silver, with the super hedgehogs bringing back the hearts of the zombies, giving them the power to realise the goodness within them or something. Idk, I haven't thought about it too much.
I think the thing that will satisfy you is if we get a new sonic manga written by shiro maekawa. Written in Japanese, translated into English. And it doesn’t have to be unique stories, they can be the stories of every single sonic game so far just in manga form , one game per chapter or something. and that would be a product that I’m sure you would love. And I would to.
22:06 CAN WE TALK ABOUT THAT CYLOOP? i'm not gonna download the game to just to try it but is the tech just letting go of boost and boosting in another direction while still holding cyloop?
Thank you for this! I especially loved your views on Amy in these comics, because as someone who's been an avid Amy defender and who use to be my favorite character I'm glad to hear how someone realizes that she isn't the same character. While I initially praised IDW Amy, I think it was just more of the fact that she wasn't just generic female character, which is what she is reduced to in later issues. For me Amy in recent times has suffered from what I like to call (and labeled on TV Tropes) as Chickification. Almost everyone unanimously says that Amy has "improved" or "received" development, yet what exactly developed about her? The only thing that changed was that she doesn't like Sonic anymore, otherwise? Every attribute related to her character isn't her character. And for me these leads into what I dislike the most about modern female characters nowadays, they have turned into controversial mouthpieces where every element about them has to be a giant Vs war. And Amy is one of the worst in this regard, first she is criticized for being boy crazy, now she's hated for being boring. It's this weird shift where people put female characters in lose/lose situations. That is if they aren't inserting political rhetoric into the equation. I hate how every attribute of a female character has to involve a political fit from someone who's just inserting systemic issues into something they think is there, just because it's a problem they want to rant about. Not everything in relation is political or meant to be portrayed in such a way. yet despite ranting how "double standards" are (especially regarding Amy) they ironically place Amy (and female characters in general) in a double standard. (Like criticizing Amy for chasing Sonic with a hammer, while ignoring Sonic's contribution entirely, even the times it was deserved just because "female abusing male" when that's not what it is) Especially when it plays no part in or influences how these characters are written, it's just people inserting salty political issues into character specifics. That was the point of Amy's original inception, Sonic and Amy were made to be incapable with each other. Amy wants to keep a guy who's known to be on the move tied down, while Sonic is a guy who keeps running. The entire point is that this isn't a relationship that can work, and its entirely played off Amy's persistence to make it work. Female character has an attitude? She's a bitch. Female character has a temper or negative characteristics "toxic" she's the protagonist and or is strong? "Girlboss" this Samey way of thinking is everywhere. Like how people criticize Princess Zelda for having her own game because "woke" despite saying she should have her own game (especially considering how Link now being playable will step on Zelda's toes, as now all it will do is cause people to prefer Link to Zelda in ZELDA's game!) or Vivian from Paper Mario being "woke" because she's trans. But if you write a male character in the same way, sure there will be backlash or distain, but it wouldn't be nearly as hyperbolic as it is with female characters, unless they are an in-your-face hate sink. I think Amy wouldn't get nearly as hated if she were male tbh, and this comes from the fact Amy was always criticized for being one dimensional, when yet how was she any less dimensional than anyone else or either served the same role or had basic characteristics? Outside of Shadow and some minor characters who really got that deep into character? I miss when female characters could be written to be sassy or display a level of aggression, there's a place for wallflowers, but don't make that define them! And even so there's better ways to write them compared to how they shifted Amy. It's like if Nintendo randomly decided to say "Princess Peach isn't a damsel in distress anymore, so now Illumination Peach is her character" like you just replace one trope with another you don't progress the character. Nearly every reaction to Amy was either very exaggerated and fueled by surface level observations (such as her character in Sonic Heroes, which isn't even remotely how she's displayed) or played up to be worse than what she was. And it annoys me how her modern version gets labeled as "developed" or "better" when these are the same people who didn't like the character TO BEGIN with (not to mention people who used "she's more mature" when 1: immaturity doesn't automatically make a character bad, and 2: comparisons to her Boom-Modern era were unfair comparisons for characters MADE to be different from Amy, even though Boom Amy wasn't mature, she just expressed her feels differently and tbh the whole "secret lover" trope is more overused and cliched than the fangirl trope), and only come to like the character because she appeals to them. She is no longer what THEY don't want her to be and is now what they WANT her to be, and Ian doing this to her character isn't a surprise when you see how he intentionally wrote her this way based off of the same mindset. Especially since I think she is WAY underrated in the Archie Comics, which not only write her accurately she feels very much in line with Amy in the games back then or Sonic X, just in a different context and more freedom to go on her own adventures. (For instance, how they do their version of the Blaze half of Sonic Rush is SO much better for Amy's character than what actual Rush did to her) It's also why I don't entirely buy her being a stalker either, since Sonic is a guy always on the move and it makes sense, she would chase him. I also feel people misinterpret Amy's involvement with Team Sonic, since she has always been marketed as Sonic's #4, its just fans didn't see her that way, Amy was just apart of the group in a different way. She wasn't one of the boys, she became part of the adventure through her own involvement. Amy now just feels like "Sonic's friend who is a girl".. Amy now has basically become an idealized version of what people want her to be. (Which I also feel is sexist because it's saying a female character is solely defined by how YOU WANT her to be, and if she isn't she's bad) She isn't relating to Sonic in any kind of way, has zero-character flaws, she's basically a perfect character. And I do want to say this, I really dislike this new "mother hen" character she has as her entire personality in Modern media because to me it feels very much like a backwards progression. Female characters (especially in sitcoms) were always criticized for being a generic voice of reason character who's only purpose was to oppose fun or be a passive love interest, this defined female characters in the 70s, 80s and even 90s, and it was often hand in hand with the mother hen persona, the overtly passive female character who's only trait is being prim, proper and polite and has ZERO negative characteristics. Doesn't that feel kind of sexist? Because to me its saying the only way a female character is good is to make her passive and motherly, while displaying traits like aggression is a no no. Even though you can still have a temper or be aggressive and still be a nice or caring person. When it comes to her leadership role in IDW it feels very much like a role Sally Acorn would play in Archie or a superhero-based character. In Sonic Heroes or any time Amy had a leaderlike role it was always more of a motivational/assertive kind. She was more into going straight for the danger but uplifting her friends in order to keep them moving. She wasn't a military strategist who plans battle strategies or anything, that doesn't come from any kind of progression it's just what they inserted for her. How in any way does that go with her character from CD-Black Knight?
I agree with almost everything you said. For me, the stories that got Amy right are Adventure 1 and 2, Heroes, Riders, Zero Gravity, Sonic Battle, Sonic X and to a lesser extent Unleashed and 06.
@@henriquezioto8760 you gotta be kidding me.. heroes!? seriously!? that's gotta be the worse characterization she ever had in heroes because sonic heroes only regressed her obsession with sonic in the entire story and that made her character from S tier(sonic adventure 2) to D tier.. the writers completely misunderstood her character in heroes Amy isn't just an obsessive fan girl that's the thing.. She's caring, compassionate (these some of the traits we've seen in adventure 1 and later seen it in frontiers so that's in character for her) and bubbly, positive and optimistic and silly and energetic.. and have a little temper something IDW comics has for the most part it mostly did understood the character I'm not saying it's perfect but you know just saying in heres they just regressed her obessession with sonic and created a toxic dynamic between sonic and amy... Now as for frontiers her character well in my opinion is good but again it's divisive as hell so I'm just gonna remain neutral her and talk about what made so many fans mad and upset about Amy's character in frontiers for some reason her character now is boring to OG fans and her cat-mouse dynamic with sonic is almost non-existent-she has no energy or being bubbly whatsoever just mostly depressed(which it's kinda justified due tone of the story but again I will stay neutral) and her character is basically changed just a little bit and grown up and you know aka matured and because of that the OG fans thinking that frontiers took away what made her character good and she feels boring while people on other hand thinking the reverse. Same thing happening with IDW comics some fans like the characterization the OG fans hate it..see the fandom is just really divisive so you would expect this kind of criticism and reviews like this about IDW dislike the IDW sonic series as a whole.. But back to my point Amy's character was the worst characterization when I played heroes I could tell the writer didn't understand the character...so yeah I heavily disagree she had the best characterization in heroes cause it's not but it's arguably worse in free riders Jesus...
Holy crap, are you me? Cause you've put into words every single thought I've had about Amy! Like, I'm inclined to add my own words to this argument, but I'd just be repeating most of your points lol You've said everything that I could say, and more! Keep on cooking ;)
@@JakeThehedgehog-m1x I really don't see how Heroes Amy is bad, like at all. Its just people grossly overacting to het character. I find it a MASSIVE hyperbole to say its Amy at her worst. Are you really going to sit there and say Heroes Amy is worse than Battle or Free Riders Amy? When Free Riders Amy is the worst version of her? Its literally the ONE version of Amy that feels as if it was written by someone who disliked her. All she does in that game is treat her teammates poorly and act like a brat, even toward Sonic. And not for any justifiable or comedic reason either. I also don't find her obsession with Sonic a problem because it doesn't come at a determient to anything, she's just channeling her love for him into confidence and is focused on helping her teammates find their friends and stopping Eggman. Plus, the team had a REASON to track Sonic beyond Amy just wants to, and so what if Amy saw it as her way to meet him? It's not like she's doing anything that comes at the expense of her friends or acting bad, Heroes literally continues her character from the Adventure games and even gets a dose of sassy lines thrown in. It's also a MUCH better and more in character showing of her leadership skills, she motives her team to keep going and of the three is treated as the one guiding the other two. Rather than make her a completely different character who's all of a sudden, a tactician and military strategist? Amy isn't a fangirl, but it's not like what you described is any better, she's literally just a girl. Which is more regressive because you're saying a female character NEEDS to be defined by their gender to be progressive, rather than just play on what she had and balance it out. LOL All of those traits listed just blend into the same archetype, being caring and compassionate largely fall under the same type, which she already had to begin with so it isn't really making her any deeper than "fangirl" she's just nice, that's all. She also doesn't really display any kind of temper, at all. Not in Frontiers, Dream Team, IDW (except maybe the rare occasion) all of her traits could just amount to one thing, she's a nice person, which isn't really more complex it's just trading one character type for another, and just because YOU happen to find one better doesn't make it objective. Also going by what you listed she has ZERO negative flaws at all, she's basically just perfect. The only time she feels like an actual character in Modern Media is Murder of Sonic the Hedgehog I also don't really agree that Sonic and Amy were toxic, in their worst portrayals yeah, but literally the entire point was the fact they weren't compatible.
Some of your takes on Ian Flynn and his writing were sprinkled into some other videos and with how you talk about Sonic stories having me think very critically about how I felt/feel about them, I was curious to see you discuss this area of his work. Suffice to say it's a very unique piece of criticism I've never seen anyone talk about. When I got into IDW, I was really into the art and action scenes and how "the characters were back" (different feelings today on that last one). I really liked Battle for Angel Island because it looked cool and had all these characters but when I look at it in the angle of how much substance the plot or wealth of action this arc had....yeah it's kinda just a reintroductory period with a very repetitive idea that just switches out its characters a lot and has a lot of fighting. Now my personal opinion is a bit skewed because I for the longest time, loved to imagine Sonic characters in fights so seeing the amount of fighting in this with such good art made me feel good but I understand why someone else might bring up the more traversal based action of the games or how the crowd of characters blends in and don't feel significant. I have always held that the Metal Virus was a very awesome story arc and I like a lot of the elements of it. Hell, I'll NEVER like the Deadly Six and I still bow my head down and say they did a good job with not only that but also how the characters deal with them. That being said, you make excellent points about how the Sonic crew probably should just go up to the face ship itself, raid the place, stop Eggman and work on a cure after everything is said and done instead of focusing on the civilians and having the infection rate grow. It's kinda like in Adventure 2 where the game kinda hits an awkward filler portion between Eggman blowing up the moon and Team Sonic actually trying to get to space so we can have more levels for characters. Just feels like a lapse in judgement. The Super Sonic climax also has some good criticism when looking at how it's used in other stories. The Adventures, Rush, Shadow, 06, Unleashed, the storybook games. These sequences have more to them than "Sonic uses the things to become stronger". The only times it doesn't are in stuff like the Advance trilogy and Generations where the form feels incredibly shoehorned in. Super Sonic and Super Silver are exactly that, Super Sonic and Super Silver. There isn't anything story or meaning wise other than "they needed the Chaos Emeralds to beat the bad guys". I'm not gonna say it's not hype but Super Sonic stuff to me is better when it's hype *and* means something greater than "we need to beat the guy and save the day". After that, not much else for me. I stuck around until about issue 45 because...I just kinda stopped caring. I became more vigilant to the stories flaws and it feels like nothing has progressed or left any impact on the characters. I liked Belle and thought it was the only really cool thing to come out of Mr. Tinker but in general nothing really hit like the Metal Virus to me. IDW just felt like it was spinning it's wheels and just...doing cool stuff and even for me who's a very simple "I like cool stuff" kinda guy, can only take a bunch of cool stuff with little substance to it for so long. Just wanted to share my personal thoughts and say I think you've done an excellent job of explaining why you don't like IDW Sonic that much.
I'd argue that even in the Advance games, Super Sonic is handled pretty well. I liked how in Advance 2, he transformed into Super only after seeing Cream cry, and he almost does it in a fit of rage. It feels totally in line with Sonic's character, and how he absolutely HATES seeing people cry more than anything. This is the same guy that tried to cheer up Elise no matter what, the guy who comforted Shara in her time of need. It's a great example of his compassion overriding his more self-centered aspects. Which makes his IDW comics even more jarring taking this into account. Sonic just sitting there watching Cream and the others cry during the Metal Virus was what turned me off the story entirely. That should've been the turning point, where Sonic decided enough is enough and he tries to cheer her up while dealing with this issue head on. But it's just sort of brushed aside to make way for more angst. That moment in particular is the perfect example of this comic's failings.
@@felixdaniels37 You know what? You make an excellent point. I can't believe I forgot about that Super Sonic cutscene in Advance 2. It's in my top 3 transformation scenes. I do think that lends into Pariah's point in the video of just getting a group to the Faceship and beating Eggman to stop the giant dumps of virus all over the place and make the threat much smaller. The melodrama did get a bit intense and while I think that was good in making very interesting stakes, it could also feel like a drag and extra bad stuff just keeps happening to make everyone even more sad.
@@felixdaniels37I'm sorry but force is kind of takes into account Sonic has changed and no one is like taking that in if a new game refined a character's personality to where they have change stop looking into the past for all he would have done this or this he wouldn't have now ensure he still kept some traits I guess that wasn't one of them so why is this such a problem all of his friends were sad in forces and negatively affected people you don't see Sonic crashing out over that why because they have changed his personality to where he doesn't do it as often he's changed a bit especially in the one game they're building what it was a bad game but it's still accurate
I think the thing that I've most appreciated from these "Sonic Story" videos is how applicable many of the insights and complaints that you've had pertaining to the franchise's narratives are applicable to writing endeavors more generally. Much of this video's criticism of the IDW comics - that having a detailed story with lots of events can still feel hollow if there isn't anything of much thematic substance occurring - is something that I've sort of been aware of for a long time, but even though I've come across plenty instances of such in fanfiction, I could never understand why I never really connected with stories that seemed to have interesting premises with lots of stuff going on. After having watched this video, I'm in a much better place to articulate my issues. So thanks for that. And yeah, same on action scenes' overabundance really killing the flow of a story for me. I've seen a lot of people claim that they should be totally avoided in literature because visual mediums can do them a lot better, but MY problem has always been that I feel as though they're a lazier form of settling conflicts than many other methods that I've seen in fiction, and literature has the most avenues of conflict resolution available to it thanks to the audience's being able to peer into characters' internal thoughts. Though I will say that puzzle-esque "fight scenes" can be quite appreciated, in that while the conflict may have a fight's window dressing, the actual resolution is based on taking advantage of an unconventional weakness of the opponent's that skips a drawn-out sequence of punches and kicks. Too bad these "Sonic" comics don't have that.
It's cathartic to know I wasn't the only one underwhelmed after hearing the writing in the IDW comics be hyped up so much. Reading them wasn't actively unpleasant or anything (other than the hamfisted references to Crush 40 lyrics in the dialogue lmao), but I finished Battle for Angel Island feeling like I could've done something better with my time. I'm not opposed to Ian Flynn taking up writing duties for the games going forward, but I hope he'll take criticism into account as he hones his skills. He seems like he's receptive to feedback, and he clearly cares a lot about these characters, so I'm optimistic.
Yeah people were so tired of the awful game stories that they started overhyping these comic stories, which leads to people who haven't read it to create expectations that can't be achieved.
As a die hard fan of the Sonic comics I have this to say to you Pariah695: You're so right! I expected to go into this video disagreeing with you on everything but for most of the video I felt like we were on the same page. I just don't really let some of those things hamper my enjoyment. Yeah several of the characters don't get to have major character development and it can feel like action figures being put together. Because ultimately, as sucky as it is, these comics primarily exist to sell the games and not to tell a story. I do have some disagreements or different views that I would like to highlight here: Characterization and Themes. Let's start with Characterization since it's less different to your views. I have probably said that the IDW Comics feel like a return to form for the characters, and while I can't speak for others, I never meant it as "They're written the way they were always meant to" because they're not. The IDW versions of these characters feel like a natural evolution and combination of previous versions of themselves from the games. Yeah Sonic is more quippy but they explain why, through subtext. It's incredibly clear that even if Sonic doesn't truly see himself as a hero, other people do and put pressure on him. This is, in my opinion, a reasonable explanation for that shift in his character. When he has amnesia as Mr. Needlemouse he is more free-spirited and carefree, reflecting how, without these influences, he returns back to form. This admittedly only applies to the Modern writing as the Classic writing fails to convey these ideas, probably due to these characters being treated more as mascots then characters. As mentioned earlier that doesn't really erase your problem with the characters but it's what I mean when I say they feel like themselves. Themes however are something I have to disagree with you on. These stories have themes and pretty clear ones at that. You highlight how the first arc didn't have a theme and said it would have been better if they had a simple theme of learning to trust your friends. There should have been a moment where Sonic rushes in to face off against an enemy on his own, realizes he can't do that, and then asks his friends for help. Except that did happen in Issue #7. Sonic went to go fight Metal Sonic but quickly realized he was in over his head and retreated. Later when Metal gets even more power he asks for help from the Resistance. It's small because Sonic already knows the value of teamwork, he just had to be reminded of it. But it being small doesn't mean it's non-existent. The theme of the Metal Virus arc is not to give up even when things look dire. While Sonic obviously never fully considers giving up, we see that as time goes on, he feels more and more hopeless. Believing he might not be able to save the day. But he obviously pushes through. Him teaming up with Silver at the end to turn Super, while having less to due with the theme of the Metal Virus arc itself, highlights how Sonic has grown from the previous arc. He once again turns to his friends and does so way earlier in Metal Virus then he does in the first arc. Belle, Surge, and Kit's arcs are RIPE with theme, practically DRIPPING with it. It's about parental abuse. All three characters "grow up" believing that their "parental" figures know what's best for them. But they learn that these figures are not who they seem and how they learn is important in highlighting their differences. Eggman leaves Belle, already tainting the image of him in her mind and meaning that when she does finally confront the truth, she is able to push past and move on. Mr. Tinker represents how our views as children can be simple-minded and flawed. How our parents can appear to be one thing because they are hiding their more crueler side, intentionally or not. Meanwhile Surge and Kit are actively abused by Dr. Starline. Even once they realize that they've been brainwashed it's hard to change because it's all they've ever known. Even if they can recognize what's happening to them as abuse it can be incredibly difficult to stop that abuse from influencing you. Yeah, it's portrayed a bit simply in the comic, not going into the nitty-gritty. Because it's a kid comic. But kids go through parental abuse and having characters they can see themselves in and understand is important. I know because I was one of those kids. And while I'd rather not go into my parents in particular, this comic was there for me when I started to unravel these feeling and this story resonated with me. It made Sonic one of the most influential media in my life all because of it's themes and messaging. These stories do have themes and meanings and even if the comic isn't for you, I hope you can at least see the value in them. You and anyone else reading this comment. That was really the gist of what I wanted to say. As mentioned I do enjoy your video and agree with a lot of points made! I just wanted to share my side as a die-hard IDW Sonic fan!
Okay, about the "it's clear sonic doesn't truly see himself as a hero, other people do and put pressure on him", that was always the case and yet he would still never claim to be a hero or care about anything like that. The whole premise of sonic is that he does whatever he wants, he embodies freedom. Why is sonic suddenly submitting to peer pressure now? Why is the natural evolution of sonic actually a regression to back before sonic 1?
@@igirjei3717 Sonic claims to be a hero in Sonic Heroes "We're Sonic Heroes!", Sonic Runners Adventure "All in a day's work for a hero like me!". And as mentioned this isn't a natural evolution of Sonic as he was portrayed in Sonic 1. It's accounting for the 2010's games where they didn't really care. This is probably because A. Sega wanted Sonic to be portrayed that way and B. It's more interesting as a writer. Sure theoretically they could have ignored how the characters acted during the 2010's and moved forward but instead they incorporated those differences in a way that, to me at least, feels natural. That's takes skill. Sonic didn't call himself a hero before or see himself as one but he started describing himself as one over time. It being because of the pressure others put on him makes a ton of sense. Sonic used to travel the world alone but he kept running into the same people, people who look up to him. In Zeti Hunt Zavok calls Sonic out on his morality and Sonic hesitates before standing by his belief. It's not too much of a stretch to say that another situation could have happened and Sonic caved, especially with something as simple as a word.
@@RainDroplet-l5o do we really have to count the classic title drop as a declaration of sonic thinking of himself as a hero? When you really think about it, naming your group of friends as a team after yourself sounds like a pretty shitty thing to do, but why the hell would shadow, rouge, or omega willingly name themselves "team dark"? If sonic would say "We're Sonic Heroes!!!" Then why wouldn't team dark say "Ah yeah, we're Team Dark!!!" That just doesn't feel like natural dialogue and I dismiss that fully as a title drop moment I'd also dismiss runners adventure purely because that was written in the 2010's when Sonic's characterization was completely different. We could also say that sonic is egotistical, doesn't even hear out his best friend, and jokes about literally everything as if he was half his age, but I wouldn't say that's very accurate to his true character either And lo and behold, you do acknowledge that it's playing off the 2010's games, which is actually correct, so I've heard. I've seen people say that Ian's sonic is based on "Roger's sonic" And the thing is, I would completely agree with your take that it feels like natural evolution of sonic as he was in 2010's, if not for an issue I take with that. How did we go from his characterization in black knight to the way it was in colors? Now there's just this gap in character development (or replacement, lowkey) and so we have to believe that 2000's sonic just flat out disappeared and was replaced with a skinwalker in colors, and now we're building off of that. I have to ask, *why*? What makes 2010's sonic a more interesting character to build off of than 2000's sonic? And in all honesty, there's no way to fix it. Nobody wants to be told their favorite games are simply not canon due to a shift in tone, sega doesn't want to acknowledge that major things like the personality of the protagonist can, will, and has changed on a whim, and most hardcore sonic fans have 0 attachment to 2010's Sonic. It's unfixable, and I'm pretty unhappy with that But to speak a bit more on the "sonic starts to see himself as a hero" thing, I'm not gonna tell you "YOU CANT FEEL THIS WAY INTERNALLY YOURE WROOOOOOONG" because it really doesn't matter at the end of the day. Whatever floats your boat, right? I can totally believe that Ian's sonic is an evolved version of meta era sonic, but there's simply no way to convince me that meta era sonic is the same as pre-2010's sonic, and as such, there will always be a disconnect that makes the characters feel off. Modern santiago is a little better, but I don't want modern santiago to be improved, I just want 2000s sonic
@RainDroplet-l50 Sonic Heroes legit has Sonic tell Metal Sonic that he welcomes fighting him again. That doesn't support IDW's take on Sonic at at all and if anything shows he's supposed to be into battle and would only actively keep around villains if they were amusing.
He doesn't say that at all. It's "we're using logic to justify this kind of finale?!", and it doesn't sound ridiculous out of context. Don't know why you made that comment
@@RightNowsReverie Again, look up what paraphrasing is. You can paraphrase and still put the sentence in quotation marks.(Though it's not necessary) This isn't an academic study. Please don't talk to me about English 101 when you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Thank you & go winge somewhere else. 🙏🏽
@@AizakkuAnalysis Fair point, and I'm sorry I said it without remembering the concept of paraphrasing. But your comment had a timestamp in it, and talked about how it "sounds so ridiculous without context". Giving the impression of that is what he said in the video. Maybe it's not English 101, but it's TH-cam comment 101 (or at least taken from what is set up as the norm over there). In those comments, they quote what is said in the video. And from what I remember, paraphrasing is used for summaries of texts, not laughing at how funny something a guy said in a video is. Also, what's the point of telling me to go winge somewhere else? I'm not complaining for the sake of complaining. I'm just trying to point out (what seems to me) a mistake in your comment.
I agree, I dislike it when stories make the main driving force in logic. In more action oriented things like this, themes and emotions take precedent over logic. Unless it's something that actively interferes with the main focus, things in stories are allowed to be illogical. Trying to have a reasonable explanation for everything is unnecessary and only distracts from the emotional core in a story like this. There's a reason when someone points somrthing out that doesn’t make sense, a lot of times people just go "It's a movie!" because, yeah, it is a movie. You're here for the characters or the themes or the journey. Not a detailed logical explanation of each event
I feel the same way, and yeah you're totally right there's not much substance to those comics, it's sad because Sonic is meant to inspire. Another thing that bothers me about them is they rarely visit new places with new characters- Sonic is supposed to travel the world, that's such a basic thing about Sonic stories. It's always the SAME video game locations, the SAME badnik designs and bad guys, nothing experimental or crazy. And that makes it so much less interesting even on a surface level. For instance, why bring Metal Overlord back? It could at the very MINIMUM be a new design. But instead we get a less interesting telling of Sonic Heroes with no deeper existential questions about identity posed by Metal Sonic this time around. :(
@HydraBread You can argue Sonic even running into so many of the same characters over and over misses that Sonic is supposed to be a wanderer. The comics make this problem much more obvious.
@@SuperboyLilly I think you're missing the point, Sonic travels to locations that are already explored in the video games (the locations he visits with Blaze are from Unleashed for instance). If it were structured like a Sonic game, the arcs of the comic would all be set in new locations. That is almost always the case in Sonic, with few exceptions.
1:01:21 - 1:02:08 As one of Cream's biggest fans, I couldn't agree more with all of this! It's *SO* infuriating that Cream gets treated in Archie and IDW as this harmless and defenseless character who needs to be kept out of danger, when the games consistently portrayed Cream as a character who can keep up with the heroes and kick ass just as good if not better than them. And it's not a purely gameplay thing either as a key part of Cream's story in Sonic Battle has her fight off Chaos Gamma to defend Emerl and *win* . So either Cream is an action-capable character and IDW is just going completely against that for whatever fucking reasons. Or Cream never was meant to be an action-capable character, to which I have to ask *why was she made playable to begin with??* It pisses me off so much cause the reason I love Cream so much is because she's a polite little girl who nonetheless can kick serious ass. But ever since the 2000's, it feels like her character is being horribly regressed into a defenseless civilian to be kept away from adventures, and it's like... Why? What does this accomplish? You're just ruining a perfectly good character and ensuring she never becomes more popular.
Another thing that annoys me too much is the fact they don't explore more in Cream as a character. Like there's a lot of potencial into explaining how she has a chao as a pet, how is she able to run at high speeds, family backstories cuz why not, her relationship with the chaos and how she could have an essencial role in future games with her ability to talk with chaos, who knows even being able to face Chaos from SA1 but nope, writers just say Cream is a normal Child who have a normal chao named Chese as a pet, that's all, no more story.
@@endosaurus1404 for that I recommend watching "The Rise and Fall of Ian Flynn", because it goes through Ian's entire run on Archie and IDW. Ian benefited from the setups and characters left by the previous writers, but when the chance to restart the story from scratch with the reboot he fumbled the bag.
@@CanaldoZenny I mildly agree with that because he did infact benefit from the stuff that came before him, and since he was also a fan of all that stuff he would expand on it. The Reboot is alright for what it is and it's certainly better than IDW. I do think it's unfair to say he dropped the ball because by the end of Pre-boot as it was essentially his own story at that point, his own story built and expanded upon on those that came before which he had to completely drop due to things outside of his control. Of course the reboot was never going to be as good to begin with, because we never got any actual conclusion with pre-boot which left a sour taste in peoples mouths. He had to bring elements in from the games while also juggling the Archie characters that were allowed to come over. Characters that had to basically start from scratch after all that development they had. The reboot was cool for what it was but it was obvious something was lost, and I don't really blame Ian for that, given that it ended too before a lot of development could happen.
Great video personally I don’t mind most of IDW but I definitely agree & hope the writing in the comics & games improves overtime I’m interested to see how the story of Shadow generations turns out Also I really appreciate you shouting out scrapnik island my favourite Sonic comic I love that story honestly happy to hear you enjoyed it
What Shadow generations turned out well and it took supplementary material from legit takeovers so everything said in this video was stupid because the takeovers are based on comics and games
your opinions about what sonic and his world should be are extremely limiting. you are applying critique about video games to an entirely different medium and it ends up sounding like the worst of CinemaSins. i broadly agree with the criticisms you have about the idw comics which is exactly why im kind of baffled you didnt even bother to check out anything beyond archie's rebooted continuity. It's a little bit weird you claim to want stories with deeper meaning and yet you write off everything except the stories that are under the most heavy legal scrutiny by Sega. Ian Flynn is constrained by the restictions put upon him, and yet you talk about this stuff as if he didnt have to start from scratch two goddamn times. I think you just don't like comics.
@@zeanone9257 that's a piss poor answer that ignores the context of the sonic comics and their purpose under archie. he is throwing away 20 years worth of comics because he's afraid of them being too different, obviously one is going to have questions about things like why bean and bark are paired up with nack if he won't bother to understand that this is how theyve been depicted on the page for almost 20 years. anyone with a brain stem and a passing knowledge of SatAM would have no problem wrapping their heads around the archie sonic comics, there are multiple safe onboarding points for the comics which he would've realized if he bothered to do any research. your "answer" only highlights the problem I have with the way this guy conceives of the world of sonic the hedgehog, anyone trying to assert that sonic's world has a canon at this point is fighting a steep uphill battle and i am unable to see it as anything other than trying to find justifications for a flawed interpretation of the franchise. I mean seriously, how many times is Sonic gonna save the world before he's allowed to consider himself a hero to this guy?
@@zeanone9257 if he was fully aware he would be less confused about bean and bark, about amy's characterization, and frankly he wouldn't be measuring how good a comic was solely by how it compares to the games. If comparing it to the games is all he wants to do he could at least check out some of ian flynn's pre reboot archie comics where he spent a notable amount of effort making the world be more like how it is in the games, but he would clearly rather throw out the baby with the bathwater and make himself look foolish to anyone that would go into this video actually hoping for a real discussion about the comics. again, i cannot stress this enough, i agree with a lot of what he has to say, but by closing himself off to any comics that came before he is missing out on prior context and making his arguments suffer as a result.
The problem with pariah is he doesn’t even want story in sonic in the first place, so all of this just feels like hot air spoken from a viewpoint most people don’t share.
i really don't get how people say that the comics are better than the games in terms of storytelling. they've always felt like byproducts to the games that try to simulate the stories from them. but never do the comics feel like something exactly if not better than how the games tell the stories of sonic. at the end of the day, as how many people that think similarly would put it, the comics just don't feel like sonic.
It’s because people have different opinions on different things. It shouldn’t be shocking that there are people out there who simply prefer the comics over the games.
Long-running franchises are going to change with time and mediums. The comics ARE Sonic, they're just a version of Sonic that Pariah (and others) don't like.
Thank you for actually taking some extra time to get into Ian's characterization of the characters. I am sick of people pretending like "Oh, the characters are back to normal now!" No. They are not. Personally, I am even more annoyed with the new direction Frontiers took with the characters because with games like Colours, Generations, Lost World & similar stuff people at LEAST overwhelmingly agreed that these characters were not the same characters anymore. At least the fanbase overall had some common ground. But now? People just delude themself into thinking "Oh, we are back to the Unleashed & Black Knight days! Finally!" No. We are even further removed from these great stories due to how much the fanbase hypes up the new direction. It's terrible and personally speaking, this franchise is almost dead to me. In my opinion it just gets worse and worse and worse.
Unleashed, Black Knight and Secret Rings are all ridiculous; slapping a "Sonic" label on top of something that would be original / new IPs (Frontiers is also badly written)
@@IZZYCHAN13 Doesn't matter. The stories are good and the characterization between the originals and those games mentioned is consistent enough. Your complains do not matter in the bigger picture because people enjoyed these stories, people liked them and that is all that matters at the end of the day.
@@tadaokou4919I mean, that’s a bit hypocritical to say given your comment. A lot of people really like Flynn’s writing in Frontiers and how well he writes the characters. Why are you so pressed about that?
@@bluefire9285 It sounds hypocritical because you exclude this important part of my previous comment: "and the characterization between the originals and those games mentioned is consistent enough". If you look at japanese Sonic media (which is the canon one up until Frontiers) Sonic is pretty consistent throughout the series. If we just look at the Classics and compare those to everything else than Sonic does evolve into something different, yes. But it's not as drastic of a shift in comparison to Unleashed to Frontiers...or Unleashed to Colours for that matter. Sonic in Frontiers is basically a completely different character and like I said...the same also happened with Colours-Forces. But at least with Colours-Forces people overall had common ground. Also, why am I so pressed about that? It's because Frontiers story sucks. It's terrible and in my opinion people only delude themself into liking it. Sage is just a little bit better in comparison to characters like the Deadly Six. She is better. But not by a lot. If you want details look at JebZones video on the Frontiers story or wait for Pariah to make his Sonic Frontiers story video...or just look at this video right here in which Pariah critiques a lot of stuff about the comics which can be perfectly translated to Sonic Frontiers story. "Oh, why are you so pressed about people liking Frontiers story?" It's because people pretend that Frontiers is something which it just is not. It's not a return to form. It honestly is the opposite. This is gonna be the new direction for Sonic? This terrible storytelling? Great, I'm jumping of this trainwreck. The characters I once loved are obviously dead.
This may be a hot take, but I'm just gonna say it... The comics are overrated. I feel like people hype them up a LOT, but I've never understood the interest. They just don't feel like Sonic. I read some of the IDW comics, and they weren't anything special. Kinda anticlimactic even. All the new characters introduced feel like OCs rather than genuine Sonic characters, and it feels like all of the Sonic cast act like Soldiers. As Pariah said, they feel like superheroes, like the Avengers, rather than something you would see in the Sonic games.
I feel like people don't even understand what their criticism is when they say "It doesn't feel like Sonic." What you mean isn't "Oh no, it's like the Avengers!" as if Sonic has some habit of calling his organized team of supers constantly, going "Sonic Heroes, assemble!" This isn't criticism. What you *mean* is that, you miss a certain portrayal of the stories/Sonic and fail to grasp the idea that, across a large, long running franchise with different media explored by many different writers, there's going to be variation. You stick to something you enjoyed and when you see something with a similar label but find something different inside, rather than accepting it's different you get upset over it. This doesn't just apply to Ian Flynn. It's just an inevitable fact- A franchise thing big is going to do different things. Maybe this does feel like superheroes compared to another piece of media? But different doesn't equal bad. The Sonic fandom is way too used to criticizing things on the basis of something being "different" than it being bad.
@@dailydelphoxI agree that different doesn't equal bad, thing is, many sonic fans don't want different. Lots of sonic fans got different with colors and didn't like it, and fewer, but still some got different with IDW and frontiers and still weren't entirely satisfied. I think that what many sonic fans want is "iteration" or a sort of "natural evolution", not necessarily "different". Hardcore sonic fans are by no means the majority of sonic fans, or gamers in general, but even we like being listened to (not necessarily overcorrected for though)
@@dailydelphoxFirst of all, don’t tell other people what they *mean* to say like you’d know. Second of all, the argument that the comics “don’t feel like Sonic” is completely valid. Stop excusing inconsistent writing.
So i was gonna write a very long comment dissecting each issue, but i just ate some instant ramen that completely killed my motivation and now that whole comment is going in the trash. Thanks a lot Ian Flynn.
I knew somebody was gonna say that lol!@@castform7 But to be fair, it's my fault, i should've been more specific, i meant the first issues of the first arc, then i was gonna talk a little about the other issues i've read, which is very little, i've read some of the first and last issues of the Meta Virus, a few Evan Stanley issues with Belle the Tinkerer, Impostors Syndrome (which i even have a physical copy) and issue 50 and 51, the rest of the Surge saga i had to watch a comic dub by Mariokartgamerdude which had Jehtt on it. I guess i was so demotivated that i didn't even specify that, sorry! Though now that you mention it, me reviewing every single issue could've been interesting, perhaps i'll still do it one day.
Fr fr I understand why people don't like it, but some people have really reduced the conversation to an Archie Vs IDW conversation despite the fact he's worked on both, so it's always funny when people say it's his fault when the stories are flawed despite also working on some of the best stories in archie. SEGA has a tight leash on the brand now and that in it of itself causes issues for characterization. Also people saying "limitation breeds creativity" is such a copout because what happens when the Creativity ALSO gets limited by editorials and higher ups?
@@SHORYUKIN-SF6 His Archie output was also extenely flawed. It only looked better back then was because of the dozens upon dozens of books beforehand that are just absolute garbage. The bar was so low that even Ian's rather shallow output was miraculous in comparison. But without that to compare it to, it's much easier to dissect the issues with his writing.
If there were a manga written with big creative input from the people running the story of the games (and no, Ian Flynn on his own doesn't even begin to count), I'd be all over it. I'm not interested in anything that doesn't actually push the plot of the games in any way though. Ideally comics would be connective tissue for the games instead of just random nonsense.
Ian Flynn feels like the type of writer you would want to have around for support, his ideas are great but his execution could use some work, I believe Ian's work is at it's best when he has somebody else helping him write the stuff he comes up with. (I did not read his fan comic but I suppose he writes better when there are no mandates or things limiting his ideas, see his run in archie as an example of the guy completely fumbling when mandates are involved) edit: I also like scrapnick a lot, would love to see Ian collab with Daniel and see what would come out
The weird thing about "Team Hooligan", is that the only time they team up in the games DOESN'T COUNT! It was just Heavy Magician gaslighting everyone with fan service! Why else would they have separate WANTED posters in Generations?
You def didn’t watch the full video then because he already says that a Sonic story doesn’t need to have a deep meaning, but the story still needs to be good
@@unkownunkown2420 even sonic unleashed you know the game that people praised it as a whole including it's story this mf keep complaining about IDW sonic stories don't have any deep meaning.. it's pointless and nothing matters etc...all that kind of nonsense stuff when the games stories follow the same pattern I mean the 2000's stories I'm not using 2010's cause they're just lackluster in general..so that wouldn't be a good example yes..even some of the games in 2000's like sonic unleashed, secret rings and black knight fall through the same pattern and formula just like IDW sonic stories I mean yes you get some good and compelling moments here and there solely how sonic is written but.. that's it the main reason why the story of those game get praised is because of sonic's characterization in those game and if we go by his logic..then nothing happens in those stories aswell the whole characterization of sonic carries the story and that's it regardless the story of those games it just happens...and the end like nothing really happened or really mattered and just return to the status quo. like even games like the ones I just mentioned have this kind of stories just like IDW yet he and other people praise those game stories and shitting on IDW stories(even if some of them very well written except scrapnik robotnik because they like that one atleast) this fandom just..doesn't know what it wants!!
Ironically even some games like Sonic unleashed, Black Knight, secret follow the similar pattern of IDW sonic's stories sonic's characterization just mostly carry the entire story and then everything just happened and when it's over then they just return to status quo yet they praise the story of those game which again...follow the same pattern and shit on IDW sonic's yeah...I don't think I can take this guy seriously
I finally finished, and as brutally honest as you were, I have to agree. Daniel Barnes is so talented, and he genuinely should write the games compared to Ian...
@_rando_d or maybe not, maybe he should stick to writing cool stuff on one issue comics and maybe only getting called to help out in qiriting major game stories, this is "SEGA hire this man" all over again, the same thing happened to Ian, look where it got us
44:49 In sonic heroes sonic says "cause we're sonic heroes" at the end. That is probably the only exception to sonic not calling himself a hero I could remember.
@@Pariah6950 I don't disagree with what you said about sonic, its just in that particular moment that he technically refers to himself as a hero that I found funnily out of character just for a title drop.
@existential_narwal9257 The same ending also has him tell Metal Sonic he welcomes fighting him again. IDW didn't bring up Sonic finding his enemies amusing in the big scenes and framed it just as him having a code.
I don’t think Idw Sonic is as bad as some people make it out to be, but I can still understand why some people don’t like this version of the character. The reason why Sonic doesn’t kill people isn’t because he’s a super optimistic superhero who believes that anyone can change. It’s because Sonic is a cool dude that simply doesn’t want to.
"Super Sonic is not just Sonic using some magic rocks to turn into a Super Saiyan" - Super Saiyan is also not just a Super Saiyan. People now underestimate how DESERVED Goku's first SSJ was.
Goku went through the entire original "Dragon Ball" and the entire Saiyan Saga without any superforms.
Super Saiyan was something that was teased throughout the Frieza Saga.
Goku has been through hellish training before. Goku has been through hellish battles.
Goku fought the one who destroyed his people, and who considered him an ordinary monkey. Goku was trying to protect his new home and his loved ones.
And Goku sucked in this battle.
And only when Frieza killed Goku's best friend in front of him - only then did the usually merciful Goku fall into such a rage that he became a Super Saiyan and defeated Frieza.
Sorry for the off-topic, but because of how often superforms were used in Dragon Ball later, because of pop-cultural osmosis, because people skip the original "Dragon Ball" and all that long period when Goku had no superforms - people forget that the first SSJ absolutely earned its epicness.
Was not trying to throw shade at DB there lol. Just wording it that way because clearly that's what Super Sonic is copying. And yeah, later DB does reduce Super Saiyan down to just a power-up. The Namek story earns it.
@Pariah6950 It started in the Cell Saga with how easy Vegeta got to be one.
@@galten7361And then Vegeta was the one to complain about the "Super Saiyan bargain sale"! 😂
@@Pariah6950 This is why Namek is my favorite DB Saga, ngl.
@@galten7361 Ways to become a Super Saiyan:
Goku: Rage
Trunks: Grief
Gohan: Pressure
Vegeta: I WANNA!
Ian has expressly said that he writes Sonic as "Roger Craig Smith Sonic". It's weird how people dismiss sonic's original, quieter, more subtle personality as a product of early videogame translation and pretend that he was always meant to be written in a more generic western superhero way. I think it's because they're more familiar with that type of character, tone and writing style and thus think of Ian's sonic as a more "realized" version of the character.
Americans ruined Sonic and gaslighted the entire world into thinking their version of Sonic is the "real" Sonic.
What about the British and their version of sonic?@@CanaldoZenny
well, that would explain why I do not like Ian Flynn’s Sonic interpretation.
I always felt there was way too much “heck yeah buddy, let’s totally kick some epic robo butt!” type dialogue in his writing. I’m tired of Sonic being cringe lol
Where and when did he say that?
@@Mr.Holloday im interested in that myself
49:16 now that you mention their designs, Tangle and Whisper are like two sides of the sonic franchise, tangle is designed like how a classic (not in branding) sonic character would be designed, with her weird attribute being her tail, whereas Whisper is designed as if she came from sonic forces (modern day sonic) . and in a sense, you could argue their backstories are like that as well. Tangles story being pretty simple with not much intricacy, and she pretty much is by her self and comes from a small tight knit town (outside of her right hand girl, Jewel (like how sonic pretty much had tails or was alone) but Whisper has a deeper more “lore based” story, being connected to a team (like how sonic branding now emphasize team ups). and bringing them together can be a way of having two pieces of the same pie existing in harmony in the era of a more Unified Sonic branding
Yep whisper just looks like a forces oc with bunch of accessories.
From what I've heard, Tangle was inspired by the grappling hook for the avatar and Whisper wispons.
That's because Whisper was partially designed IN FORCES.
Nah they’re designed to be gay western inserts bc every western writers sees children oriented media as an opportunity to groom them.
That's an unironically awesome way of looking at it
23:11: _Indiana Jones_ is about Indiana becoming less mercantile, less about "fortune and glory", believing in the magic behind the artifacts, which parallels him warming up to the women in his life, treating them as romances instead of flings to be tossed aside. Also about father-son reconciliation in _The Last Crusade._
You know what, you got me. Even Indy is about something.
@@Pariah6950 I hesitated to go off and complain about your indie takes in my main comment on this video because I thought there were more imperative things to mention. But yeah the original indie movies deffo have a narrative and plot. And good ones at that. Very good movies. Pretty much original star wars level of quality.
@@Pariah6950 IDW Sonic is about something, though the execution can be kinda debatable.
There's a theme throughout the whole comic (yes, even Scrapnik Island) where basically it's challenging 'Sonic' as an idea, the idea of the embodiment of good, the 'perfect character'.
Throughout the whole first arc we see how great Sonic is, he's very exaggeratedly cool due to how Ian Flynn writes him, but we see also another kinder side to him, he comforts Tails, he motivates the wisps to fight for themselves, he quickly befriends new characters like Tangle, he shows understading towards Whisper's shyness, overrall just showing how he affects the world by just being kind, and yet in the second arc, from that point on it seems that all good things Sonic does or did, come back to punish him. In the first arc he gives a second chance to both Mr Tinker and Metal Sonic, which might seem odd, but he's done similar stuff in the past so it's nothing new, and due to the circustances, that's what he thought was right at the moment so that's what he did. But then comes another factor to the occasion, Dr. Starline, and he is the opposite of Sonic, he affects the world in negative ways, and he only manages to do that thanks to Sonic's actions, from that point on Sonic just suffers, the consequences of the good thing he did, and yet Sonic resists, he doesn't stop being kind despite that, and that's what makes Sonic such a good person.
And we see on Scrapnik Island Sonic's kindness finally paying off, it wasn't just an isolated story, it was a sort of 'end' to this whole arc.
But as i said the execution can be kinda debatable, but that what I think was the writers intent from both Ian, Stanley and Daniel Barnes.
@Rainyar4479 They just shoehorned superhero writing into the games' world and/or used characters like Starline and Surge to rant about the apparent status quo of the games (really just their interpretations of the characters and salt at not being able to do Archie again).
@@crimsonzone8984 Its what Sega wants them to do. They are the main ones in control.
The most frustrating part of IDW is that it’s now intrinsically linked to the games now despite feeling completely different. If it was it’s own thing like Archie, I could judge it on its own terms, but I can’t with IDW because it isn’t its own thing. IDW is canon, they are supposed to represent the characters and stories from the games and it fails at every turn. And now we have the very real possibility of IDW’s problems bleeding into the games.
Hey you are from the UK right? Have you read fleetway sonic the comic before?
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that they are going to ignore criticism, hell, this video could be use as an example because PARIAH'S A WRITTER, so this could be good thing for both Ian and Evan, hell even danny . Like not all of it will be bad
Part of why I seriously do not care about the sonic lore and “story” anymore
@@sugarsmile7852fleetway was canned all they back in the early 2000s, they’re not that popular so I won’t be surprised if he didnt
I never hear of them until that cybershell video
Agreed so much
Ian flynn didnt want the transition in the archie reboot, but editorial told him to do the memory thing
You’re actually one of the first people who actually acknowledges the way sonic Introduces Himself, Ive heard it so much I have it Implanted in my brain
When he got to that point I was laughing my ass off in hysteria and asking myself why I know that. The sonic Brainrot has consumed me💀
@@igirjei3717 is not brainrot, brainrot is like a virus that gets to you at some point and slowly kills you. Sonic is more like propaganda from a dictorial regime that selects the most vulnerable to its mind control
when he first mentioned it and started building up to it, it brought such a big smile to my face. i didn't even think something as small as that could matter, but it surprisingly makes a huge difference
Another one of those catchphrases he talks about that always sticks in my mind is "Long time no see!", that quote is permanently implanted into my brain.
Sucks that this was what Twitter brought up and not how Sonic isn’t a jokester
I wanna add to the stuff about the humor: in older Sonic material, the humor didn't come from the characters making quips or saying funny lines. The humor came from how their personalities played off each other and their situation, like Sonic making fun of Caliburn, or Amy bossing around her teammates.
Also, I feel like Flynn writes a lot of characters the same. Like in a lot of situations they all have this very light, sarcastic tone or sometimes phrase things in an unconventional way like he does, and it doesn't feel natural. Sonic would not talk the same as Amy who would not talk the same way as Eggman
I commented this before you brought that second point up. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU
CHARACTERS DO NOT ALL HAVE THE SAME VOCABULARY AND MANNERS OF SPEAKONG
I think that may come down to the marvel comic/movie issue that Ian seems to take from: everyone is quippy, everyone is funny, everyone sees what's going on and instead of playing it straight, makes a joke. And because everyone """has""" to be that way, it kinda bleeds over their actual character traits
Literally the core of good comic writing is making all lines interesting, it's been written like that for an actual age. But when sonic does it it's suddenly bad, uh uh.
@@vazazell5967 that definitely seems like an oversimplification of the problem
@@igirjei3717Would you say he also has this issue in Archie, whether it be pre or post-reboot?
Interesting fact about the British sonic comics: it's one of the few sonic media to adopted the sonic bible pitch by SOA which American sonic media never adapted
Well there is one exception, there was a one shot comic that was a promotional comic to the sonic game, and it was released in America
It adapted the plot that you're talking about
@@saeedalajati yeah that was a thing but other then that none of American Sonic media adopted The Bible they only took some elements for sure like the name of the world and some of the animal characters
@@saeedalajati Oh yeah, forgot about that! Thanks for reminding me!
ew
The thing with Mr. Tinker was because the comics tried to establish "why doesn't Sonic just kill Eggman". Because Eggman's intellect could be used for good. From my understanding from the games - he couldn't. Eggman is just too good at planning, running away etc. Every time Eggman was vulnerable enough it was during truces. Sonic was previously okay with killing, his reaction to slaying King Arthur (before he knew he isn't a human) was shouting happily "Yes, I did it!", Biolizard, Dark Gaia and many Black Arms soldier got no mercy from him. On the flip side, there is also "why doesn't Eggman just kill Sonic", why he wasn't okay with Starline just setting a trap. He said that he could just carpet bomb Sonic - and he couldn't because he already tried it in Sonic 3&K, in Angel Island! And Eggman even attempted to kill Sonic with a trap in Adventure 2! When Sonic and Eggman couldn't just kill each other, it made them both feel strong, two indestructible shields stuck in eternal stalemate. When Sonic got turned into Batman and Eggman changed focus from conquest to Sonic, it made them both feel weaker and overconfident that "they could kill each other at any moment, they just don't want".
@Gnidel Besides all you pointed out, a big difference between Sonic and Batman is that Batman's iconic rogues are supposed to genuinely need help hence them being largely sent to an institution rather than actual prison. If you accept that then it's easy to see how come Batman isn't killing them all (they're just men who need support and institutions to help them). That and enough of them aren't shown as full blown terrorists or enemies of the American state but just serial killers or thieves who should be well handled by just being locked up.
None of that applies to Eggman. Sonic isn't fighting for society or care what example he sets. Eggman is oblivious to what he's actually doing to the world he's never been someone who's beyond being a hero if he wished to be one (after all, look at Gerald).
The thing is, neither question should be a thing that should be brought up in the first place. Sonic doesn't kill Eggman and vjce versa because this is a cartoon series for kids. They all run on cartoon logic, Eggman can be blown to Kingdom Come only to come back next week to enact his next dastardly scheme. Hell, Eggman survived being sucked into a black hole. If that didn't get him nothing will.
This was only ever addressed as an artificial way to add conflict to the story, and it just doesn't work. As you pointed out, this exact issue has plagued cape comics for decades, and it's disheartening how IDW Sonic has learned NOTHING from those missteps.
The problem with this reasoning is that it misunderstanding Sonic's morality on a fundamental level.
He's a simple guy who does as he pleases. He's not a superhero and doesn't abide to any higher responsibility or morals beyond whatever he feels is right.
He doesn't try to kill Eggman, nor does he deliberately try to spare him. He just deals with the immediate threat and moves on. He'll fight Eggman as much as he needs to. Eggman always ends up retreating though, and Sonic isn’t the type to kill someone who's given up or is no longer a threat. He also doesn't show much mercy or try to save Eggman from his exploding machinery or collapsing bases.
Trying to make a conflict or justification for why Sonic will or won't kill Eggman is stupid because it's inherently not understanding that Sonic genuinely just doesn't really care about all that.
@spoonybard2380 The idea of Sonic as an aloof dude who does his own thing is mind-shatteringly alien to a surprising amount of people.
@autobotstarscream765 Yeah since a lot of the Western takes didn't really include that and still don't. The DiC shows and comics all made him a full time superhero/rebel commander. Even when Archie rebooted itself to be more like the games they still had much of the established cast operate within the Freedom Fighters or other organizations.
Not even a fan of the IDW comics (though i have read up until the surge stuff and liked it for the most part) but some points you made rubbed me the wrong way.
* Stories dont always have to have themes to be enjoyable. Characterisation, Action, and "Rule of Cool" are good enough sometimes (i.e. The Mario Movie and why people enjoy that movie despite it having minimal story)
*I understand that seeing characters fight is not exactly "Sonic-like" (even though he fights a lot in the games lol) but the comics would be really boring if each chapter was just sonic running with nothing else
*The characters dont "Just fight" there are several points in the story where action is shown through other methods. (and even when they are fighting the fight scenes are compelling)
*Saying things are pointless in a story is reasonable occasionally but just saying "strip all the character except for Sonic, Knuckles, and Shadow and remove the robots defending the island" makes the story FAR more boring and uninteresting. Even if they "aren't necessary for the story" they make it more interesting rather then watching sonic (hedge)hog all the fame to himself.
*32:45 Yes their mission was pointless but would you rather they cut the issue entirely and just had them sit around talking in the base until knuckles tells them? that makes no sense for them to do that and it makes the story more engaging. You then go on to say that the whole thing was pointless except for introducing a major character? (THAT MAKES IT NOT POINTLESS???)
*33:35 You said the WHOLE plot line with Mr. Tinkerer meant nothing? Mr. Tinkerer shows that Robotnik can do good with his intelligence, it gives more depth to the character and also gives an origin for Belle later down the line and her ENTIRE motive. Saying he does nothing for the story is ENTIRELY wrong. Also saying just because they arent VITAL for the story means the characters should be cut from this part? Why would they introduce Tangle and Whisper later instead of building on their characters from the very start? It gives less time to develop them and make people like them before they take the limelight.
*37:50 IDW sonic is serious a lot of the time but also quips and is sassy like mainline sonic. Sonic has always made quips and takes things seriously when he needs to. I'll give you a list of all the ones i thought of from the adventure games:
(Where you going ya' big drip, i'll play with you some other time, oh look a giant talking egg, knucklehead, talk about a low budget flight..., I found you, faker [kind of a stretch], you've turned into a big time villain, doctor... [whilst amy is held at GUNPOINT] ) all im saying is that sonic makes quips when he's confident in his abilities or is currently winning a fight and takes things serious when necessary (meta era is a different story...)
*39:00 would you prefer he not talk at all in the comics???? also he talks a lot during cutscenes so i have no clue what your even talking about here. are you talking about how during levels he doesn't talk because thats not where the plot is.
*The points you make about Amy's characterisation was not a good take at all imo. She's finally getting to be written as a character who has more character traits then "I LOVE YOU SONIC" and i actually appreciate that. although i do think taking her in that direction of being a "nick fury" is a bit goofy, like you said, (she is like 12 or something), you make it seem like you'd rather her stay as a 2d character, whos personality runs down to wanting to marry sonic, just because that's in her source material and i disagree GREATLY with that.
*I think him treating metal like a son is actually not only a good bit of humor (which you seemed to be opposed against entirely for some reason) but also gives metal and eggman more character even if its not like the adventure games. Characters dont have to remain the same all the time. Different versions and takes on characters are way more interesting then keeping them exactly the same imo.
*I agree that shadow is TERRIBLY written. It's the part i hate the most about Ian's writing...
*I agree with you on the point about "Sonic. Sonic the Hedgehog." i think it is kinda weird that Ian forgot that lol. Although i think you made it a bigger deal then it actually is.
*44:44 "CAUSE WE'RE SONIC HEROES!!!" lol
anyways i got bored of complaining about your complaining so im just gonna stop now.
TL:DR just because its not written exactly how you want it to be written doesn't mean its flawed. I originally started writing this because i wanted to just lay out some stuff you got wrong but i kinda got a bit opinionated lol. Your opinions are your own so don't call the stories objectively bad or boring even if they are to you.
Listen nobody likes the mario movie because of the story it's because it's a new thing and after few movies people will complain about the just look at the mcu
@@zeanone9257 thanks for cherry picking one point out of my entire argument :)
also your just wrong, people enjoy the Mario movie because its a fun adventure and because its Mario. not because its fresh.
Themes aren't mandatory, but without an actual message to serve as a connective tissue for the story then everything else is going to be weaker. You'd need to have the action and cool moments to be top notch to make up for that, otherwise the audience is going to feel like they're wasting their time.
Thing is, IDW simply isn't top notch action/cool moments. Like, Pariah practically spells out how repetitive the action and pacing is, and it only makes the shallow nature of the comics all the more egregious. So yeah, IDW could really use some themes to strengthen the narratives they want to set up.
Also Mr. Tinker was 100 percent pointless. He only appears for two issues before going back to being Eggman, with almost nothing about him being shown, only told. If they wanted to convince the audience that Tinker was capable of good, they needed WAY more time to flesh him out to show that his avtions are even genuine. Like, Eggman could've been faking the whole Tinker identity and literally NOTHING would change.
i do not like lanolin
@@felixdaniels37
I'm sorry, I wont touch on everything u said but I HEAVILY disagree that tinker meant nothing to the story.
Like what the poster said, tinker showed the vast amounts of goodness Eggman could do if he let go of the desire for conquest and settled somewhere.
I also believe it built sonic from just stopping him to wanting to change him. As it seems sonic after that fight speaks to Eggman differently and is constantly hinting at how good he was as tinker. Even eggman in the metal virus arc thinks about it as he pauses for a bit when sonic talks to him in that 1 city (when sonic breaks the chance Eggman could control the zombots).
It also starts the whole "should we put Eggman down" question and what should be done about him. Which has been brought up at times in the story even after the metal virus arc.
We also get 3 new characters that come from that due to the actions of tinker.
Bell, and with the metal virus? Surge and kit.
I quite like a lot of the sonic comics, and I like Ian Flynn, but I gotta say it's refreshing to see well constructed criticism against his writing that doesn't devolve into blindly hating the guy. Your critique was all very fair and I enjoyed hearing the positives you had to say as well. Another great video!
It's not hard to hear actual criticism when your not focusing on the folks that don't and those that treat his words like gospel
@@hype5456plenty of people just nitpick and constantly hate on Ian Flynn. Your just wrong if you think everybody who doesn’t like Ian Flynn is a 100% valid.
Yeah some people still believe he’s the reason the freedom fighters don’t appear in idw and send death threats to him. People give too much attention to those idiots.
@@unkownunkown2420 and plenty like to strawman people when they're critical of his writing like what you're doing.
Not everyone that criticize him is out for blood
@@hype5456 I said plenty of people not everyone. Even in this comment section I have heard someone call him talentless which is just plain rude and isn’t a good way to deliver criticism. A lot of people have valid points against the guy but not everybody has those valid points.
I hope Daniel Barnes watches your Scrapnik Island segment, from someone like you who appreciates storytelling that's gotta be really high praise for someone who worked only a few written works for this comic series.
12:44 Moon Channel's video about the Sonic IP explains this. Basically the current owners of the IP (SegaSammy) view Sonic more as a "hero among children", a positive role model they can use to make their company seen more family friendly towards investors.
SegaSammy has been pushing the Sonic brand to be more Super Hero-y since they acquired Sega in 2005. I believe the way Sonic is written in the comic's, recent games and the Paramount movies are related to this brand guidelines.
Of course a gambling related thing had to be a plausible explanation for a japanese IP's issues
We're so cooked 😭
I emplore you and all others reading this to not take the word of a TH-camr as gospel.
This makes no sense there are multiple games since 2005 where Sonic is written correctly and his character has barely changed in Japan. The more likely reason is Sega of America think that superhero characters appeal more to western audiences.
True, Sonic is a hero but guess not in that way.
And just like that. We go from Live Stream to new video.
I feel like Ian did a lot better writing during archie comics run because the characters could actually grow and change and he had a base to pick up from and characters weren't supposed to be the real sonic. Ian flynn isn't a bad writer, he's just not the best thing to happen to sonic because he's better than other writers for sonic games. I'd say he can write a great sonic story, but not if people keep telling him he's already there.
Also by the way you talked about this video I thought you were you going to flame him, but you were very reasonable and made a lot great points not a lot of people talked about. Great video as always!
Yeah man because the only thing that holds Ian Flynn back is the higher-ups because lack of creative freedom leads to your ideas not getting used in your own story that you want to tell because otherwise they'll just force you to write something that you didn't want to write and I think he did better when he had much more freedom with Archie than he did for IDW can it would have been better if the IDW comics was its own continuity
@@JustinJulian-00 it's also because he wants to be faithful to the games and so do the fans, you can see it post genesis archie where he starts to add more game elements to his stories. Then when the contract with idw was being made the best way to get it to sell to more fans was a complete fresh start. I bet he wanted it to be canon, but he probably didnt realize that the characters wouldnt be able to truly change over the story. Especially when he started making sonic frontiers, cause now he has to keep the characters the same without any big changes until the comics catch up to frontiers and dream team. This will then cause moments where he cant do anything crazy like enerjak, or a main character getting shot
I do not agree here. Ian has always had these issues, it's just that his flaws as a writer has only become more noticeable without the baggage of Archie obfuscating them.
@@JustinJulian-00
We need to stop blaming SEGA for the shit Flynn does. Flynn has free-reign over the comic.
That's why his characterization is off, that's why shit is nonsensical, that's why the dialogue is cringe. SEGA has little to no input on the shit Flynn does. If they got him for writing the games, then they NEVER seen the comics.
The reason you all blame SEGA is because when HE gets backlash for HIS writing, he pins the blame on SEGA. Why? Because fans want any and every reason to just bite the hand that feeds them, just like in the 2000's and 2010's. Flynn wants to parade around like he's the Jesus of Sonic, when in actuality he's not. He's a comic writer. He wrote for Archie Sonic and that's the only Sonic he knows.
The more I listen to you, the more tips I’m receiving on how to write a story well. Thanks for your time in making this video.
Holy shit, NO! How about you take tips from actual writers instead of some random TH-cam essayist.
@@Frank-zb7zh your unwanted advice is noted.
@@Godiswithus3 And obviously need it. There are a lot of reviews online about this comics. Do you know what the best ones have in common? Despite the difference of opinion, none of them claim to know or be capable of creating something better.
This kind of videos just remind me of the opinions of writers like Alan Moore and how fan culture is ruining entertainment or Garth Ennis and his annoyance at the rising of the “amateur expert” created by the Internet.
This is what this writers think, take notes.
@@Frank-zb7zh What have you written? I'm just inquisitive.
@@Frank-zb7zh"essayist"? His vids are unscripted
And what's wrong with claiming to know or be capable of creating something better?
I entirely agree. IDW Sonic sincerely just feels like an excuse for SEGA to have a comic about Sonic to promote the franchise, but the writers, either because of mandates or because they don’t know what to do with Sonic, have to maintain this status quo and can’t progress any of the characters or world in any meaningful way. It’s just an action comic that exists to promote the Sonic brand and to push that brand into the multimedia franchise they want Sonic to be rather than existing to tell a meaningful Sonic story.
I enjoy the artwork in many of these IDW issues, and there’s a few issues that do have a more meaningful story (Scrapnik Island is probably the best example of this imo) but overall it feels like Sonic junk food.
maybe Scrapnik Island is good because it's written by a good writer and the other aren't than just pushing the mandates as an cause into why the comic sucks
@@aymenjbailiMost of the mandates make sense. People need to stop blaming the mandates and start questioning authorial decisions instead of blaming everything from Sega. Plus, limitations breed creativity - within mandates there are still good stories being written, it’s just that IDW is not one of them (except Scrapnik Island)
@@aymenjbaili The same guy who defended ian flynn and said he is a good writter
I've actually been kind of unimpressed with the idw comic art. At least the actual pages, lots of the covers are very nice. But designs are all kind of blobby and the colors are too flat. Seeing the comic art of Archie preboot Flynn era makes me really want that art back. The designs were just top notch, super nice to look at, and the colors were super nice
@@ChibiSteakI do like the art of IDW, but Tracey's pre-boot archie does hit differently.
Flynn's writing is what me and my other comic fan friends call "literalism" and it's how superheroes have been written for decades.
There's a fixation on the fictional universe itself, the continuity and how the world works and internal consistency. Which is great fun for people who are extremely invested in the fiction, but almost always it's at the cost of storytelling, and to be honest literalist writers tend to not really be interested in things like themes and metaphor and character development.
The story is almost completely incidental to the lore, it's there to "tell" the lore, and character progression is done solely with big emotional moments that tend to be completely unearned.
Kinda like how Hazbin Hôtel is written basically
@ASolidSnack Seal clapping.
Personally enjoy it when there's a mix of both; a great interest in the lore and the world itself, but also something to tell.
The fiction is incidental to the theme and not the other way around.
Fuck that totally describes me. How does someone not write like that
It’s like how George rr martin made fun of lotr bc we didn’t know Aragorn’s tax policy and then he couldn’t even finish his own story bc it turns out people care more about the actual story then they do about universe padding.
2:28 You know what makes this funny? Ian Flynn reused that joke in the first boss fight of Sonic Dream Team.
Sonic really liked that joke
@@jateyboi1108 Sonic more like Sonian
ian must've really liked that joke huh?
I'm so glad someone touched on Ian's writing these aren't the og sonic characters, game characters were mostly consistent from the begining sonic 1 to unleashed or black knight whichever was the latter one, especially in japanese version of the scripts. Then the life was sucked out of them and they turned into caricatures of themselves after colors and now they are replaced with Ian's version of the characters (which a lot of them feel like variations of the same character being the quippy marvel guy/gal sorry but it's what it's). You can especially feel it in frontiers these aren't the og sonic characters they haven't been since unleashed/black knight.
They still have consistent characterisations till this day
But only in Japan…..
@@lemon5000-tj6nvtoo bad the cutscene animation and plots are set in stone, so even if the characterization is right, it still doesn't make any sense with what they're actually doing (like sonic being argumentative with Amy in frontiers)
As someone who starts to play sonic from colours and I genuinely like it till this day, colors story wise is my biggest grip of it.
And my genuine fear that, "This might influence to the future games." from the moment I played the game is coming true... It pissed me off somehow.
didn't shiro maekawa not like genesis sonic's personality
@@alexbain8606yeah. But his portrayal of sonic isn't too outta character since the added snarkiness is usually in times when he's disturbed, irritated or bothered. Although there are still oofs to his handling that pariah pointed out in his story videos.
this video really breaks down why exactly i'm nervous about having ian flynn as the lead writer for sonic games in the future and having IDW be considered canon. "this doesn't feel like sonic". god, i miss shiro maekawa more and more every day.
People have tried to warn Sonic fans, but they refuse to listen.
People overthink this way too much. Any writer is fine honestly- there's always going to be some level of deviation when you get new blood in a team. We shouldn't be trying so hard to look for nonexistant patterns in this deviation to determine if this person, across multiple media, "belongs" or not though. You get caught up in overthinking media that you don't just accept it for what it is.
When you say "This doesn't feel like Sonic", what you really mean is you're longing for older media that you already like and can't accept that newer media is never going to be exactly the same. Because it's newer media- they can't just pump out the same exact thing with minor tweaks and differences over and over again.
@@NicheXCC My point is, new directions happen. That's what deviation is. What Sonic is now isn't what Sonic was 20 years ago, and isn't what Sonic is gonna be 20 years from now in the future either.
The mandates aren't even the problem. We don't have a full understanding of what the mandates are or how they change over time. We can't just say "Shadow sucked in a few pieces of media and Sonic isn't allowed to cry, so everything is now revolving around these two elements."
Heck, this doesn't even necessarily apply to the games, as the games are more likely to influence the mandates. We don't know. And we really shouldn't be acting like we do know or that everything is doomed constantly.
Sonic is currently pretty successful though and many people who aren't caught up on little things are pretty happy with it. Those who are upset over certain things are a vocal minority at best who don't realize it.
Calling the IDW characters "OC's" is also not a mandate issue lol.
@@dailydelphox Sonic isn't a blank slate that can be molded into just anything. At it's core, it is an established concept where the media expresses particular themes. It's the most common through line with every Sonic game. Long running franchises should not change on a fundamental level to the point where they completely veer off from the core idea. "This doesn't feel like Sonic" is perfectly valid in this case because Ian Flynn fails to understand the fundamentals of Sonic storytelling and worldbuilding. It's not overthinking to say that what's coming out now is worse than what's coming out then.
Lupin for example, has different writers for it's movies yet they all have some theme or message it's exploring and every main character is consistent to how they've always been portrayed. Same with stuff like Dragon Ball. Changing characters and the general identity on a fundamental level is going to be noticed by anyone and reducing it to "it's just your nostalgia". I don't want new media to feel exactly the same as the old media, I want the new media to feel like it actually understands the old media its continuing from and that's the heart of the issue.
@@dailydelphox And that's why it almost vanished to obscurity from 2010 to now.
I feel like there is more narrative potencial in bean and bark beaing teamed up with fang then just being another set of background characters
There’s a difference between knowing a lot about a character and understanding a character. Flynn certainly is the former…which is also, unfortunately, what a lot of the fan base follows under.
Yeah, definitely the vast majority of the vocal minorities. It is annoying because it mostly leads to the detriment of the series and, honestly, I'm tired of this whole thing
The weird thing is I've heard him describe Sonic's character before and it was a near perfect description. He seems to understand what the character should be but never writes him like that.
What was the description @@kieronix4071?
@@kieronix4071 If this information is actually true, then he probably chooses to not write the characters the way they should. He did say that he didn't like how Amy was written in the whole series and wanted to write her in his own way, so maybe that's why.
I'm not blaming him because Maekawa did a similar thing, so I'd be a hypocrite.
@@Kelps.mp4 I don't have a problem with writers having different takes on characters, as you said Maekawa did aswell. However, Maekawa just emphasised elements that were already parts of Sonic's character whereas Ian is changing or removing aspects of the characters.
"Everything in Modern entertainment has to be weird and platonic" as an AroAce I need RECEIPTS 😭 WHERE DO I GET MORE PLATONIC DYNAMICS
If it makes you feel any better there's a gay owl and a rooster which is nice I kind of enjoyed the character dynamic
About the speed, Sonic's speed is somehow special because he was the only one fixing time by running in Generations.
He is just faster than the rest, its like in anime where the characters can literally break the rules of nature by punching really hard, for Sonic is running really fast and nobody is faster than Sonic.
makes me think of gurren lagann where just "really wanting it to happen" is able break through the multiverse and rewrite the fucking canon lmao
@anga156u1 everyone in shonen can punch, but somehow the shonen protag jus knows how to punch the punchiest punch a punch can punch the punched
Which is so fucking dumb, like it brings up so many questions i don't even know where to begin.
Ending off with Scrapnik Island and that being considered great in this video is peakkkk. Because Scrapnik Island is PEAKKKK! It makes me want to see more of the Scrapnik's and this developed version of Mecha Sonic someday because of how cool they are design wise and the little moments and implied connections these robots have together as a made up family.
And the fact that I'm in my FNAF phase lately really does make the story very cool to me! I love exploring sentient robots as characters that have their own agency. The perception and mind of Mecha Sonic was really so cool, I overall really enjoy how much Mecha Sonic characterization that this comic really got into.
ah shit are we on the same phase cycle?
I agree sonic isnt Batman he’s not someone who sees the good in everyone, if somebody is willing to change and ask for redemption then he will let them change and redeem themselves but he’s not gonna go on this quest where he tries to per-swayed people to change that’s not his character,he’s a guy that just looks forward and keeps on moving and if his enemies dont wanna change then he accepts it
I don’t know why they did that to Sonic. Sonic doesn’t kill Eggman because he believes he can become a better person. He does it because he’s a Chill dude who normally wouldn’t do something like that. Sonic is optimistic but there’s know way he’d be naive enough to believe that Metal Sonic would turn a new leaf without being reprogrammed.
that end frame of Sonic and Mecha standing just staring off in the distance feels so “Sonic” to me. it’s been done before (Riders for instance) but it just works so well.
ironically they try to attempt something like this in Forces but it does not work at all. I’m interested in seeing the whole Scrapnik comic now.
28:37 I wanna add to this point. But, part of the reason the action in this comic sucks is because Sonic and co are just waay to good at smashing robots, so there’s no variety or stakes in these action scenes. At least with the early Archie days, the Freedom Fighters were outmatched by them, so the writers had to find creative ways to make them useful. Some characters would go on espionage missions, others like Sally used Nicole to hack into systems, Rotor built gadgets for the team, and all of the fighting was left to Sonic or Bunnie, but even then, they struggled.
Apart from Tails being a genius, none of the other characters have distinctive talents to make them fight robots differently in IDW. Maybe their weapon of choice will change, but it ultimately amounts to the same results. It’s made even worse with the introduction of Wispons where any new OC can pack heat with a super powered alien.
Ironically in the Archie comics Sonic should be able to easily obliterate most enemies. Besides seeing the characters take advantage of their unique abilities to fight enemies is fun.
I don't agree with your action point lol?? Spoilers for beyond #50
Tangle uses her tail to fight differently just like Whisper uses wisps with her gun? It's pretty cool to see her tie up enemies and crush them thats different id say. It's slower and rougher than others too.
Omega shoots the zombots with bullets and puts holes in them for example?
Sonic gets pretty overwhelmed in #51 I think? Mostly running from them is that boring?
Also Sonic fighting the deadly six was pretty evenly sided no? He had some bruises and got knocked around.
Combat isn't just against robots here but I feel it's still varied enough to definitely not be boring like you said.
@@SwimSwayer Well, keep in mind that boredom is subjective. I'm aware that people enjoy the action in this comic regardless, but to people like Pariah and myself, I tend to find it pretty repetitive and uninspiring at times, especially in the first arc where it was just fighting robots in towns again and again.
"Tangle uses her tail to fight differently just like Whisper uses wisps with her gun? " I know, which is why I said "Maybe their weapon of choice will change, but it ultimately amounts to the same results." It's not about how they fight in a fancy way, it's just that it's too easy. The badniks are rarely a threat unless the story wants them to be. Sure Sonic struggled in issue #51, but it doesn't negate all the other times he doesn't. He was still doing pretty fine through most of that arc. He only struggled because he got hurt and couldn't run.
As for the Deadly six? Sure, I guess? I'll give you that one, but it's not really saying much when I've forgotten about that confrontation completely. After a while, a lot of the stuff in this comic becomes a blur to me. A "blue blur" if you will, lol. It's all too samey. If you find this stuff entertaining, more power to you though.
@@SwimSwayer "Tangle uses her tail to fight differently just like Whisper uses wisps with her gun? It's pretty cool to see her tie up enemies and crush them thats different id say. It's slower and rougher than others too." It still leads to the same result, though.
This is just my opinion, but Sonic would benefit more by having a manga series instead of an ongoing comic.
The problem with the structure of comics is that these stories aren't supposed to conclude, and therefore the story cannot have anything significant to be resolved (ex: character growth). Secondly, comics these days are trying to have serious storytelling when the structure of comic books production just doesn't allow that. Originally, comic books were disposable stories that a person would buy at a magazine stand, and throw it away once they're done reading it.
Given that the Sonic franchise wants to have real stories, the comic book structure isn't going to cut it and it just waters down what Sonic is all about.
I would prefer if Sega instead invested time into searching a manga artist and writer who can tell a good story, with a beginning and end. An original story that is a one-off thing, separate from the games would be nice and a Sonic manga is overdue.
Real question why didn't we get a new sonic manga yet?it's over 2 decades since the last sonic manga and I'm still wonder why sega of japan didn't try to make a sonic manga?
@@sugarsmile7852
Japan doesn't really love sonic as much as the western side does
Took until frontiers for them to care about him again so maybe it'll happen outside of minor stuff like sonic channel art
Also now I'm reminded of that chao in space mini manga maekawa did in 2001
Yeah, and what would happen to those who prefer Western comics over Weeb shit??? Also, endless manga and Western comics with a beggining and end exists, you weeb
@@CV100-jv6ht”omg who would prefer japanese stories that can actually stay true to the original characters that were made by japanese people than localized american bullshit!”
You would think Sega would at least pay someone to translate the very few mangas we do have and release it in another sonic collection type of thing, since we now have to pretend archie never existed
new long-form pariah video better than most modern cinema!
also predicted that “sonic is not spider-man” line. that was so funny 😭
If you watch Danny Phantom, has a lot of nods to Spidey. Danny’s wit and banter. Villain like Vlad, Valarie, and Dan Phantom being parallels to characters like Venom and the Green Goblin.
17:16 I think you had already mentioned this in your sonic heroes video but originally bean bark and dang were gonna be a team in sonic heroes, it doesn’t make it any better but it might justify why they made them a team here.
Correct along with Mighty,Ray, & Metal being on a team.
If fang, bean and bark got added in heroes, their characters will be rebooted. Also, the concept of the hooligans was made before shiro maekawa revealed that they could’ve been a team in heroes.
9:46 wow never noticed this cameo
For context: the two hedgehogs are Silvers parents from evan Stanley's fan comic "ghosts of the future" and theres another really furry hedgehog in crowd at the back called zeilo from a fancomic called "murder of me"
Nobody asked for this, but diversity of opinion and discussion are both healthy, so here’s my two penny’s worth on this matter as something of an outsider. Strap in folks, this one’s a long one!
I am not what I would call a Sonic fan. I did not grow up with the games, and nor do I keep a finger on the pulse of the franchise beyond general awareness of its existence. However, I am prone to sometimes falling down the rabbit holes of various things, and lately I’ve just so happened to tumble down the one belonging to this blue borrowing mammal. As I fell, I thought I’d poke my nose into the IDW comics just for a laugh, but was very pleasantly surprised with them, as I found them to have been put together with more thought than I expected. Happening upon this video, and feeling in the mood for a respectful (albeit possibly tangential) argument, I want to raise a couple of points for consideration, if I may.
Firstly, a lot of your complaints revolve around the idea that the characters, ideas, stories and etc. are ‘not Sonic’, because they do not align with the early, original versions. Now, Sonic, as I understand it, is a big franchise that’s been around for a while and has been subject to such things as localisations and changes of direction. Whether or not these are for better or for worse is subjective, and if you think the latter then you are fully entitled to do so. However, then going on to say that these things are ‘not Sonic the Hedgehog’ or ‘have no place in Sonic’, I think is a leap. A lot of long running characters and franchises change over time due to the nature of their being, and have done for longer than you might think, but this idea that the original is the purest version is a more modern one.
Take, for example, Batman, seeing as he came up in the video. Batman, as he first appeared in 1939, lacks a lot of the aspects that people have come to associate with the character. For one, this Batman kills, and has few qualms about doing so. He also lacks: a batmobile, a batcave, a butler, a sidekick, most of his gadgets, and the Joker. He smokes too. His parents are still dead though.
Another example is Sherlock Holmes. There have been many different adaptations of Holmes over the years, and people argue about which is the ‘definitive’, but even with the original stories the character shifted for the sake of Conan Doyle’s ease of writing. A Study in Scarlet, the first Sherlock Holmes novel, depicts him as an almost inhuman calculating machine, knowing very little about anything that will not directly aid him in solving crimes. This is because the first half of the novel is dedicated to his efficiency and logic behind finding the murderer, whereas the second half is written entirely from the murderer’s perspective, detailing the love, loss and betrayals that led him to commit his crimes; the novel contrasts the cold Holmes against the emotionally driven murderer. None of the subsequent Sherlock Holmes stories were like this, and instead focused solely on Holmes solving crimes, and as a result the detective’s character changes a little. In the very next story, in fact, Conan Doyle expanded his knowledge and shows him quoting philosophy.
ANOTHER example (bear with me, I’m having fun!) is Robin Hood. Legends of ol’ Robin date back centuries, but the earliest ones are not of a heroic outlaw fighting injustice and caring for the poor. Instead, they are about a mischievous little man who runs around the forest playing pranks on those who walk through. He doesn’t even have a bow and arrow.
My point being is that the original version of a long running character is not necessarily the purest. Things that come to define them often come or are expanded on later. Of course, if you prefer the original version and think that is what should be strived for going forward, that’s your prerogative. Saying that anything but that version is incorrect though is reaching.
Secondly, there’s the matter of adaptational changes. When adapting something from one medium to the other, sometimes changes have to be made to accommodate it. The example I like to use is that of movies adapted for the stage. In a film with close up shots and moments of quiet, an actor can employ subtle facial expressions to convey emotion. In a theatre, where you are playing to a large crowd, you have to go a little over the top-perhaps throw your arms about-for the people at the back. Similarly, in a game with cutscenes, visuals and voice acting, you can do things that you can’t in a comic of speech bubbles and static images, which means a speedy and carefree character like sonic can be hard to translate. Therefore, certain poses or bits of dialogue that they might use in a game cutscene have to be changed from being 1:1 in order to still convey what you’re trying to get at. Sonic might well quip a lot more in this medium whilst performing stunts so as to tell the reader that he’s having fun and is a bit carefree. Naturally, if you think the translation has failed in its purpose, then none of what I’ve just said on that matters, but I felt it was worth bringing to the table.
Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, whilst listening to the video I couldn’t help but feel you were criticising the comics for failing to do something that they were not really trying to do in the first place. You spoke in the video a lot about plot: how it isn’t progressed, how it doesn’t make sense, what the point of the story is, etc. Now, I’m an aspiring writer, and I agree that plot can be very important, but I put it to you that it is not always the be all and end all. Writers, readers and narratologists have argued about what is most important in narratives for years, some saying like you that it’s the plot, others saying it’s the characters; some saying the plot is for the characters, and others saying that characters are for the plot. The takeaway is that comics, like other art forms, is not always about the events taking place or character arcs. Sometimes it’s purely about exploring a character or idea or theme, sometimes it’s about posing a question that you might or might not answer, sometimes it's about something else.
I’ll cut to the chase: I think that the intention behind these comics is that they are all part of one long soap opera. A very different kind of soap opera-one set in the world of anthropomorphic animals that gotta go fast instead of washed-up celebrities having affairs in pubs and apartments -but a soap opera nonetheless. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing; despite the stigma’s revolving around certain genres, very few are bad in and of themselves. The IDW comics are more focused on the relationships between characters and the world they live, putting them in new places and situations to see how they react. It is, in that way, like a playground where different bits of Lego get mixed up, but rather than that being a bad thing, I think that’s what draws a lot of people to it.
Let’s be honest: the comic is spin off material, and no way would it be allowed to make earth shattering changes to the status quo or have plot points carry into the games. If it is canon, then it’s secondary canon, used to fill in the gaps. With that in mind, why have them try to do what the games do but with pictures when you could have them doing something else? The games wouldn’t have long to focus on soap-opera stuff before they had to get back to gameplay, so the comics step up to give that to those who want it.
I’m not trying to convert you to the comics or say that you’re wrong for disliking them. But I would argue that you shouldn’t be too dismissive of them as nothing more than ‘trash’.
(Thanks to anyone who read all that. Just wanted to get it off my chest, y’know? Feel free to disagree or discuss below. You don't have to do it in long form!)
This was a very well thought out and informative comment. I just wanted to express my appreciation.
I love seeing outsiders opinions on Sonic, they always have so much interesting stuff to say.
Let me talk from my own experience as a Sonic fan my whole life. The Sonic franchise is a big cycle, every time it changes, a generation of Sonic fans gets mad.
Originally it was all cartoony and simple, then the franchise changed to a darker tone with more realistic aesthetics, people who liked the simpler good ol' days demanded that it was changed back, so they did (at least, how the public perceived it), and then the fans from the darker, more realistic days demanded it was changed back to that, so they did, and the cycle goes on.
Sonic is a character that is able to adapt itself to whatever direction the series wants to take.
In the 90's, there were 2 versions of Sonic from the different divisions at SEGA, the japanese version (from the classic games) and the american version (from other media like cartoons and comics) the japanese version was more serious, he had an attitude but he was more subtle about it, the american version was exaggerated to the extreme, he was snarky, used a lot of slang, was very cocky, etc.
In the 2000's, when the games started having more dialogue, the brand was unified, and so they brought some of these american elements to the japanese version creating a sort of mix of versions, which the fanbase calls "Adventure Sonic."
In the 2010's, to accomodate the more lighthearted approach, Sonic was now more of a cartoon character, his snarkiness instead of being used for cool factor, was now used for comedy, which translated to the main cartoon at the time, Sonic Boom.
And then we arrive at IDW, and i'm sure that this is the version you're most familiar with so i'll waste no time.
The Sonic fanbase is composed of various generations, so by their point of view, the version that they grew up with is the only version that matters, so any version that comes after is just a shallow imitation of the one that they grew up with, which is why it seems you can't please the Sonic fanbase, because it's made up of very different publics with very different tastes, and a lot of them are just afraid of change. And yet they can't just stop consuming it, they've become too attached, so all they have left to do is complain about it, until one day, everything goes back to how it used to be.
@@Pikmanipulator Hey thanks! I appreciate your comment of appreciation.
@@Rainyar4779 Thanks for your reply! I gleaned some of that history from my decent already, but thanks for expanding on it. You're definitely right that there's a generational factor at play, and people can't help but stick to and prefer what they know sometimes. I think what has also compounded this issue for Sonic and characters/franchises in the modern day, as opposed to older ones like Sherlock Holmes and Robin Hood that I mentioned, is that thanks to the internet and greater emphases on preservation, people now have more access to what came before. You can go back and play old games, watch old movies, find and read old books on demand, and connect with people from the other side of the planet to see what their version of something is, so making comparisons and tracking changes is naturally far easier.
In this kind of landscape for storytelling, an idea of permanence has arisen that wasn't necessarily as strong before. We live in a world of consistent fictional timelines and 'cinematic universes', and people search for the 'definitive' or 'true' or 'lore accurate' (whatever the heck that means) versions of things. The way that people consume media is closer now to how archaeologists and historians study the real world, were you ARE striving for truth and facts, when beforehand I think a lot more people were open (whether they were aware of it or not) to fiction being altered and retconned and what-have-you. I think a symptom of this is that certain entries into franchises can completely derail them in the minds of the audience, whereas looking back it was possible for certain movies/books/episodes to be quietly forgotten about and following things could continue as normal.
Sorry, I'm being all tangential again. I'm not saying that I think this new landscape is bad, and I'm definitely not saying that freedom of information and preservation are wrong (I'm really, really, really all for it, believe me!), but I do think it is different and had an interesting effect on fiction, in a similar way to how the invention of the printing press did. I find it kinda fascinating really, and perhaps that's what made me fall into this rabbit hole in the first place.
@@jajproductionsfruitcakefil8489 No no, it's fine, in fact it's amazing to be able to talk to someone who has so much stuff to say as i do.
Thanks to my autism, whenever i like something i make sure to do as much research on it as i can, in fact when i was little i used to watch videos detailing the whole lore behind Sonic, not just the in game lore, the real life lore of how he was made!
Nowadays i've been fascinated by another side of Sonic, the comics. Both the in universe lore and the real life story behind it all is so interesting to me. I have a whole digital collection of both the Archie comics and the Fleetway comics, i've been trying to get a hold on the IDW comics but the thing is, with both of the earlier comics, they're not being sold anymore, so i have no problem in just downloading them for free, but with IDW, i wanna support the team behind it, so i'm making an effort into getting physical copies of them, and right now the only one i got is Imposter Syndrome, and i absolutely love it!
One thing i didn't mention in my original reply is how you described the IDW comics, and i just wanna say i love that description a lot, it perfectly describes Ian Flynn's writing in general, ever since the Archie days he uses method acting for his stories, he basically becomes the characters, and that's what i love about it. The characters are always the main priority, and that's a great writing principle for Sonic, a series known for its characters.
Really i don't care what people say, i love Sonic comics and i'll stand by that opinion as long as i can!
The reason Ian Flynn’s characters don’t sound like themselves is because they literally have the same speech patterns as Ian Flynn himself. If you listen to his podcast and then read his work it’s like yeah, this sounds like it’s coming from the mouth of Ian Flynn, not from the mouth of the character.
oh, that's interesting
Actually, yeah, I can definitely see where you're coming from. I wouldn't sa that's the main thing that makes these characters act different, though.
I totally agree. I think he just has a certain style of writing that just doesn't fit Sonic. The individual characters need to speak differently
He tries to be like pretend to be those character, he studied theater n shit
@babyyoshi2904 No wonder it sucks, it came from a theater kid/s
I really hate it when people say that Ian Flynn's versions of the characters is somehow a natural progression of the game characters when they are just different characters.
It’s very easy to fudge character growth when there’s a whole six months of ‘life without Sonic’ unaccounted for. Any time a character doesn’t make sense or reflect their old personality, you can just say “The war changed them.”
@@LeafRazorStorm Then again, they don't really feel like they experienced pure war for 6 months without their savior in Forces, so making them feel like they did in Frontiers is weird.
That's... kinda just how writing characters goes though.
The Sonic fandom just never seems to understand this. They think across a massive franchise with countless stories, it needs to be consistent to a point where everything always feels familiar- but that's impossible to ask for any franchise. New writers are gonna have new ideas, there's gonna be burnout or new interests, creative new directions, experimentation and exploration of old and new ideas.
We can't just throw up our hands because "It's not the Sonic I want" while alluding to some old media as some holy grail that should be copy and pasted with minor adjustments each time like a Pokemon game.
Honestly, a lot of Sonic fans yearn for the things they already like instead of realizing new things are never going to be the same as the old things, even if they DID try to aim for that. Creating stories isn't that simple.
When writing a new story, pre-existing characters are inevitably going to be different characters. As they get used more, the illusion we've created in our heads that these are living, breathing people with consistency falls apart, as we realize these are characters instead who are prone to change far more often than real people are.
@delaneyelekes8660 "but that's impossible to ask for any franchise" WRONG. The characters in One Piece have been consistent in every movie, game and everything else they've ever been in outside the original manga for 20+ years. It's not impossible. All it takes is for someone to give a shit. Sonic has been inconsistent since his inception because Sonic Team didn't care to keep his character consistent across the globe for marketability reasons. It's an old practice that has slowly died out since the mid 90s and Sonic is still suffering from the effects of that old practice. Now the original vision of Japanese franchises are treated with way more respect and we just want the same for Sonic.
@@mrbanks456 Bingo. Typically, the creators pen some kind of exhaustive character/story bible for the series BEFORE handing it off to freelancers, but Sonic had no such luck. Now the current team is stuck trying to weld all these various depictions of Sonic into one cohesive character again, and it seems NOBODY on staff can agree on which parts should be highlighted and which should be ignored.
You touched on a huge difference between Western takes on Sonic and Eastern takes on Sonic. Western takes as a rule make Sonic a full superhero ala DC/Marvel's big names and/or a rebel commander ala Luke Skywalker who for either operates within a full time team/unit/paramilitary. Flynn being someone who certainly got into the franchise from the Western interpretations applies this to how he writes for Sonic even and especially in IDW. Same goes for others in IDW's staff.
What IDW Sonic is "trying to say" overall is the following:
A. Trying to "examine" the "rules" of the games like how Batman and other superhero works keep on doing so for their "rules" (see all the debates over whether superheroes should kill villains or whther they should have more oversight since they're vigilantes or if they do enough to counter society's issues). IDW Sonic uses how Sonic hasn't killed Eggman yet to make them do their version of a Batman v. Joker dynamic (hero who's a paragon of light or justice or whatever refuses to kill ridiculously vile villain which doesn't fit the games' characterizations).
B. Building on the above using characters like Starline and Surge to rant about the status quo of Sonic (which comes off like Flynn and Co. complaining about how they can't just make Archie again where you had Julian getting killed off and replaced by another Robotnik who upgraded himself into Adventure Eggman, Sonic fighting to preserve a monarchy that locks up protestors, long lost parents, the Echidnas being more or less Kryptonians, doppalgangers replacing the cast secretly etc. ) apparently has.
Eggman in game canon is not Dr. Weil or the Joker (or Jack Horner or any other "goofy looking villain is actually darkness incarnate/super vile"). He is supposed to believe what he's doing will upgrade the world into a utopia he can protect while being ignorant/oblivious to what he's doing to the world (he's meant to represent Man after all). There is no real evidence he has a notable bodycount and while he's fine with killing he's not shown as making genocides like he's doing shopping or making wastelands for the sake of it (see Western takes but namely SatAM with Archie especially Archie written by Flynn). Flynn just sees Eggman as how he wrote him in Archie (where he was a Robo Hitler crossed with The Joker) and isn't impressed with how Eggman is characterized in the games (hence IDW Sonic having the "Eggman never plans ahead" which was also done to make Starline fallout with Eggman). And while Eggman would insist on defeating Sonic in a way that shows his ability there's no real evidence he would flat-out prevent a henchmen from defeating Sonic just from that henchmen not doing so in the approved way (again, Eggman isn't the Joker).
Sonic is not a superhero. Sonic does not face villains in game canon from society's justice or duty or responsibility but rather from the villains offending his values or bothering him. His bios say that the adventures he does are a distraction in his life. Sonic has no real code against killing he holds himself (and others going from Batman) to and doesn't worry if he loses the tolerance of proper authorities or care about setting an example for anyone (those three are the in-universe answers to superheroes not killing villains while the out-of-universe answers are all regulations). While Sonic has no issue with villains redeeming themselves he doesn't reliably go out of his way to redeem anyone (not even for Merlina, he didn't actually to redeem her when she was an active threat), that's far more associated with Amy and arguably even Knuckles (see Sonic X saying that Knuckles believes anyone can change hence him being willing to trust Eggman saying he'll stop being a villain). Don't confuse Sonic not being bothered to kill Eggman with actively sparing him, what actually happened is that Sonic just doesn't need to do more than smack around Eggman to make him stop whatever he's doing and once Eggman is downed Sonic just moved on to do something else. Again, not a superhero.
Exactly!!
you get it
@@galten7361 a nice write up. Ian making Eggman say "rodent" was what cued me in that he couldn't (or wouldnt, which is far worse) separate game Eggman from Archie. That's when I stopped actively following reviews.
Eggman tried to blow up Earth with the Eclipse Cannon in SA2, and shattered the Earth in Unleashed; that's two instances of attempted genocide.
@SuperboyLilly No they aren't genocide. Eggman wouldn't have done anything to stop Gerald's plan in Adventure 2 if he was going to use the Eclipse Cannon to kill off the world and there's no evidence Unleashed had a notable bodycount with the countries still livable as full societies rather than being post-apocalyptic.
i really hope theres some sort of way we can propel Daniel Barnes into becoming the series writer, because genuinely skrapnik island was god damn beautiful.
Yes, please, anyone but Flynn and Stanley. Stanley's a great artist and I hear she's actually nice. But man, she can't write. Flynn has no talents of ANY sort so I just don't get why he's part of this.
@@CliffNerply I get personally not liking Flynn’s writing, but calling him talentless is way too rude and not a healthy form of criticism. That’s just being an asshole
@@CliffNerply Do you know why he even got popular to begin with or are you just being ignorant?
@@CliffNerply Say what you will about Ian but he's trying his damn hardest to add interesting stuff to this franchise, I think he could do it better but I respect the shit out of the hustle when even the guys making the games have given up at this point
Daniel Barnes is an entitled idiot who publicly criticized the work of his own colleague (Flynn) instead of giving criticism behind doors which is what anyone does with a colleague. Also he said that his stuff was better than doing so. Yes, i believe he knows how to write somewhat better than Flynn, but he is still a total idiot and a disrespectful person
People who want some one new to take over always has it blow up in their faces. Daniel wrote one mildly decent mini and suddenly there's people who want him to take over. History repeats itself is all I'm saying.
Exactly, it happened with Ian Flynn, and now he's getting lousy
@@ralsei3157 Yeah, but at least Daniel Barnes is actively trying to get better and talking about it.
Few weeks ago, he was responding to a person talking about his characterization of Sonic on Scrapnik Island, and he admitted that he could done it more game accurate.
Also recently when I gave some criticism to IDW's structure on how the stories progress, he liked my comments.
I mean, the guy is watching and trying to get better.
People wanted literally anyone else to take over because for a long time, Sonic games had basically no story what so ever. Flynn is a step in the right direction, but not ideal.
Personally, I just want Shiro Maekawa back. Then everyone would be happy.
Pretty sure Pariah was not advocating for Ian Flynn to take over.
It's really disappointing how fast IDW Sonic peaked. They jumped the shark SO HARD with the end of the Metal Virus arc, you can't just go from double super chaos control warping a liquid metal sickness into the sun, to "get the Deadly Six"
Once again, your analysis reveals things that I've always understood at some level but have never been able to articulate. Your explanation of how the stories are written like super hero comics is exactly the problem I've had with them this whole time. Good stuff.
some really good and well thought out points here. tbh people are so in love with the idea of story in terms of the individual story beats and twists that happen in them that i feel like actual storytelling gets left by the wayside far too often
Ian's sonic feels like an extension of Roger's Sonic, which has been in the series for so long that people assume that's how Sonic acts. I think people see him as closer to the game Sonic because it's the Sonic they grew up with (me included) but just not as cringe/annoying, so it must be accurate!
@@kirbypopstar2485
I don't even mind RCS Sonic, I just wish he was better executed. You can absolutely have a quippy, jokester Sonic, but the jokes need to either be funny, or endearing enough to not really matter when it isn't. Also lean on on the concept more beyond just word jokes; have him lean into more physical comedy even in battle, like how he is in Sonic the Fighters. Basically have him act like a Looney Tunes character that's just as interested in humiliating his foes over just simply stopping them.
Nah Ian’s Sonic is just Ian himself in a Sonic suit.
If that characterization has “been in the series for so long”, then that *IS* how Sonic acts. I prefer the old Sonic, but he has developed into something else at this point.
Look man, Flynn's Sonic is a better Spider-Man than Spider-Man has been in the past 15 years, so I'll take what I can get.
It's so sad that this is true. American comics have been in the dumpster for about a decade now
Still, Sonic is not Spider-Man :/
Sonic isn't suppose to be
Lol that is true, Sonic fans are having it really good compared to Spider Man fans.
Ultimate Spider-Man (2024) is Peak, took awhile to get there.
Ian for some reason really likes writting zavok
To try to make him better, and honestly, he did a good job imo. I mean, have u seen lost world (his debut game), Froces, and Team Sonic Racing.
Who doesn’t like Zavok?
@@themissingbits6375 I like him
@@themissingbits6375 Dude, I love Zavok.
@mediamuncher69 IDW Zavok is just a Sonic Klingon or Orc.
39:33 Now I see it: Isn Flynn's Sonic is how people (mainly americans) believe Sonic used to be, because their only frame of reference is the Sega of America version of the Sonic brand in the 90's.
Because if this, every attempts to deviate from this americanized image of Sonic towards a more japanese/original version makes people dismiss Sonic, saying the brand changed for the worst, when in actuality the brand reverted to its original intended meaning.
Well yeah, when this is the sonic they grew up with of course they're going to cling to it. American sonic matters to a lot of people just like japanese sonic really matters to Pariah. Though I will say in most of IDW his character has been pretty flat compared to even post-reboot archie where he at least showed emotion. And with Pre-boot Archie there is no contest since he's actually allowed to develop.
@@endosaurus1404well I would say sonic not developing is perfectly fine, considering sonic doesn't do that. The issue is that he's just... someone else
Meanwhile sonic riders and sonic adventure and sonic Rush being literally just idw:
@@igirjei3717 I see no reason why Sonic cannot develop when its in its own comic continuity. Especially when done well. That and him interacting with other characters with arcs as well.
@@vazazell5967 Not really, he doesn't make jokes. Tho the character philosophically is the same.
twitter makes me feel insane for how many of the readers on there act like amy's personality and her dynamic with sonic in the idw comics is totally normal
Average Twitter "normalization" behavior: Gaslighting, gatekeeping, silencing.
It’s not normal but it’s certainly better
Facts bro.
I have the same problem with silver in these comics. Like wth is an uwu adorkable softie? That just seems like modern Disney/MCU character writing. This is not how naive and immature works with silver. We already have the chaotix for dorky characters. He's honestly just as bad as shadow in my opinion.
It kind of is though. Especially when compared to some of the games.
@@Exmotable I'm afraid that people are just too dense and ignorant to understand these issues. We're better off doing our own iterations, rather than sticking to how they were, prior to the 2010s.
That's a really interesting point, how sonic games are mostly about going fast and adventuring, yet a lot of these comics are mostly action-y fight sequences. I've always thought of the combat as one of the weakest parts of the sonic games, yet they highlight that in these. Weird.
@ShazyShaze A lot of it has to do with not just taking notes from superheroes but also trying to be a shonen battle manga (and the dubbed animations of them at that). How many times have you heard that Sonic is just DBZ with furries while ignoring all the other works Sonic took notes from?
I imagine because they can’t really highlight combat in the games, so they do it in the comics just to do it _somewhere._
@@galten7361 Yeah, I'd imagine a lot of it is that
@@zigzagintrusion Yeah, but why highlight combat at all? It's consistently the worst part of sonic games, and usually runs pretty antithetical to sonic as a character.
@@ShazySoft Explain how it is antithetical to Sonic’s character, please. There has been “combat” in Sonic games since the first one lol
I'm glad more people are waking up to Flynn's writing instead of treating him like the second coming of Christ or something. I remember back when Frontiers came out that his fanboys went nuts if you called it anything but perfect just because he was on the story. His Archie days were pretty kickass for the most part, but those days are over.
And this is coming from a Surge fan lol
Yeah I don't think this story would be much without Surge. I'm only following Idw because of surge.
@@shinkai9kami162 Me too! I thought Surge and Kit were the best thing to happen in the main story by far. I'm really just interested in who they were before Starline took their lives away from them.
@@MetalWeebChaos I'm so fcking glad seeing people realizing IDW comics aren't that good. The story feels more flat after the metal virus saga (not to say it already had fundamental flaws and I'm tired people screaming "metal virus saga is the best story of the franchise"), the characters not only are starting to feel more one dimensional over time but also being not 100% themselves (yeah I'm looking at you Amy Rose and Sonic), all of that. I'm just reading the comics because 1) Visually everything look beatiful and 2) The villains who are peak imo like Starline (even if he's practically a recycled character from Archie, u know that bald Eggman familiar), the iconic duo Rough and Tumble (I like how simple but memorable they are) and of course... Surge (even if it's, again, not a 100% original character).
@@criticalbuddy524 Some of the characters are interesting, yeah. Unfortunately they stand out more than Sonic and co. in a series named after the main character himself. There can be characters more interesting than Sonic, but Sonic has to be fun too. That's why people were so fond of Archie and Fleetway.
The art looks great too, but without a good story or decent writing it's just there to look pretty instead of being immersive. It feels like a modern day Sony game in that regard; beautiful yet bland at the same time. It's odd.
It’s simply because his writing was better than trash of the meta era and due to that most people didn’t want to criticize or notice flaws because they have been starved so long of good content. Not to mention certain youtubers hyping up his stuff. It’s about time people get out of this hype phase and come back to reality.
1:00:20 Y'know, I never thought shadow looked too similar to sonic besides some few design coincidences, but this single panel made me honestly quesiton if they just traced over an Sonic model but with shadow's color pallete, because his quils are softer looking, more close together instead of spread out, his face looks more pressed together like normal sonic meanwhile shadow's LOOKS broader because his quillss are more spread out
The more I hear about these kinds of generic Sonic stories, the more I want Sonic stuff that's written like Lupin III or One Piece.
Daniel Barnes being a fan of both of those series is yet another sign that he could write really great stuff for Sonic if given the chance!
Sonic já sendo bem semelhante a One Piece em muitas coisas, a storyline de One Piece iria encaixar direitinho.
Could you please elaborate on what aspects of Lupin III and One Piece you'll like Sonic to take notes of? Because I'll love to your perspective on why the franchise needs that
@@RightNowsReverie One Piece follows the general structure of the main characters visiting a new place, getting to know the locals and their often tragic situation, and helping them out by beating the bad guy before moving on to the next island.
Sounds a lot like the stories from classic Sonic, doesn't it? Would fit pretty well imo
Lupin III also has a somewhat similar thing going on, especially Miyazaki's works in the franchise. Lupin and his gang often find a person in trouble and help them out in one-off episodes. The series in general is also pretty light on continuity, which is something Sonic does as well.
A lot of episodes are also very character-driven, having a deeper exploration of the main characters and such.
Both series also have an underlying theme of freedom throughout (One Piece more so than Lupin, but Lupin still does have it) which is also what Sonic originally was all about
So, yeah, I'd like for Sonic stories to take notes from those in regards to the general tone and storytelling structure. I was very surprised to see Scrapnik Island does this and now I want to read it!
@@patofanatico reminds me of a cartoon, Wonder Over Yonder. While that show is more silly and not very shoneny compared to lupin iii or one piece, it's got a similar premise of two characters traveling the galaxy and visiting planets while also saving them from this show's bad guy who.. just so happens to be narcissistic and childish.
Mid piece…
Y'know, after watching this video, I've come to realize that Ian Flynn's writing is basically logic>good writing.
Following logic for a worse outcome that will be harder, ergo more interesting, for the characters to crawl out of is always benefitial.
It's just higher-up fear to dare.
Easy conclusion to make when he never covered Ian's Pre-boot Archie run, the thing that made him popular.
Pre-reboot Archie was the best sonic media ever but sure let's ignore that
HAhahahahaha Ian Flynn and caring about logic? Hahahahahaha This guy doesn't care about "logic" anymore the moment it gets in the way of what ever dramatic bs he currently wants to write.
Metal Virus breaks its own logic not just every issue but often even with in the same issue and the rules for the world and the logic behind character actions are twisted and turned into what ever is currently needed to brute force the story he wants to happen to happen.
@@endosaurus1404
Well it really wouldn't make a difference he would hate it on principle as its a continuation of 90s American Sonic to its very core.
The thing about the "mandates" is that they aren't really something SEGA does for everybody, multiple writers, (including the one currently in charge, Evan Stanley,) have stated SEGA have been very accommodating and even liked their ideas, while with Ian, he constantly complains.
This isn't because of some corporate desire for control, but because Ian's ideas are awful. The infamous Shadow scene was caused by Ian wanting Shadow to destroy the city with Chaos Blast before being infected. SEGA just told him to do something else because they thought that was too violent. That's it, no one said "make Shadow an enormous asshole," Ian did that himself.
So SEGA keeps him on a tight leash because his ideas are horrible, look it up and you'll get countless more examples.
bro this isn't true at all lmao. they wouldn't hire ian if they thought his ideas were terrible, they just change things they want on brand or in character. where did you even get this information from?
@@afro025 they wanted Ian because he is a recognizable face in the Sonic community.
@@CanaldoZenny ...no? Sega isn't going to bring another person with terrible writing they hate like Ken Penders to write the new Sonic comic. They wanted Ian because they liked his ideas. The author's recognizablility doesn't even matter here, especially when majority of the people who buy the comic are children who don't know who Ian Flynn is.
Source? I’d like to read about that
As person who read all Archie, where he had all creative freedom in the world, i don't believe you. Only information i could find about that saying that Flynn planned to Shadow take off the inhibitor rings and get infected while saving evacuating civilians.
You know, I see this idea pushed by people who don't pay attention to the fanbase that the Sonic 06/Dark Age fans are these overly aggressive people who try to strongarm people into liking whatever they like and getting very prickly and defensive when challenged; not only have I never experienced this with any 06 fan, after skimming through this comment section I'm more willing to believe it's another subset of Sonic fans. The kind that seem to really like Ian Flynn.
What direction would you take Amy as a character without just reverting her into an annoyance that just sometimes shows up and harasses Sonic, or constantly thinks and talks about him?
Let her be more energetic and exciting. Like SpongeBob
He already put his stance on it: And he wants her to be a worthless normal girl that gets to stay in the background until the emotional moment happens, if at all.
Is it surprise to me that I see nobody other than Amy fans understand this character?
"Those are games, with gameplay, that I play." 31:36. Pariah the poet.
I'm not sure if you've spoken about them before, forgive me if you already have, but have you read translations of the Sonic Channel stories? I'd be interested to know what you think of them. I think the story that went on for the entirety of 2023 was very fun, and I frequently revisit the 2021 stories as great characterisation examples.
Pariah has already said his thoughts on the Sonic Channel 2021 stories: he didn't like it.
@@Rainyar4779 damn lol, they're favourites of mine. do you know where i can hear his thoughts on them? i'm curious to know what he doesn't like about them.
@@aaphant He said it various times in his livestreams whenever someome has asked about it. As to why he doesn't like them, i imagine it has something to do with the stories not having much substance.
@@Rainyar4779 yeah that's fair, they are pretty short so there's not much room for depth. i'd be super interested to see eitaro toyoda handle an entire game's plot someday
43:08 Eggman in these american comics has a long history of being probed into this pseudo-father/mentor figure. Some people even joke abd call him Egg Dad.
I believe Ian Flynn even said Eggman is his favorite character to write for. In one of the Twitter Takeovers they even made a joke about it eith Eggman giving some fatherly advice. Ian, what are you trying to say?
@CanaldoZenny A lot of those Western takes make Eggman much more monstrous than in the games though.
Yaknow maybe it's because Bowser is a dad?
It feels like the comics being part of the canon ended up being a millstone around the series' neck. They can't do anything too crazy that would shake-up the status quo since it might undermine what Sonic Team wants to do, and that includes the comic-original characters now. Sega and Iizuka had to give the OK to everything about Tangle, Whisper, Surge, etc. (Yuji Uekawa even gave notes on Whisper's mask), so Sonic Team can use the characters for anything they want. The comics now are just fun adventures starring funny animal characters, like the Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck comics. And those comics can get pretty raw (particularly with Scrooge), but you're only going to get a certain amount of thematic depth.
Heheh... Who knew the comics had so many ISSUES? XD
Ba-dun-tsss!
Carlos!!
Heh, I see what you did there.
Ian Flynn is literally the Sonic series’ Dave Filoni, if you’re a Star Wars fan you know.
Who’s Dave filoni?
I'd probably give Flynn a little more credit, considering he is subject to restrictions while Filoni has nearly complete creative control of his enterprise and still makes dreck like the Ahsoka show. Plus, Filoni is infamous for disregarding the Expanded Universe, while Flynn seems to have a genuine desire to preserve Sonic's "canon," insofar as he is capable.
In terms of writing talent and artistic approaches, though, it's a really apt comparison. They are both so dry.
@@theGstar305 ah a man of culture I see! Nah though, you honestly make a pretty good point.
26:33 This is an excellent point. I hate when people try to use this as a counterargument because they forget that this is all fiction. You can just write a scenario to play any way you want. There’s no “one specific” way to write a plot line as logic, power scaling, or whatever McGuffin you wanna pull from your ass fluctuates between writers. If you get 5 writers to write one plot line, you’ll get 5 different results. That’s why the whole “it was necessary to be written this way” was always BS to me.
I’ve written stories before in a collaborative setting with other people, and things always tend to change based on what others believe should happen.
Mr. tinker created Belle the wooden robot. People can i identify with the loss of their father like Belle does. That has a purpose.
you're not alone in your hatred of combat, the older i get the more interested i am in narrative based conflict, psychological battles etc
28:50 To comment on that and give you some information: In Matttt's video on the Archie comics (which is a great video that I highly recommend. I'll link it below.), Ian reveals he grew up in a theatrical household and studied greatly in the English language; but admired a lot of nerd culture as well. Matttt mentions how surprised he was of Ian rambling about how passionate he was for E.E. Cummings, Rob Liefeld, Shakespeare, Fullmetal Alchemist, Vonnegut, and The Dark Tower in pretty much the same conversations. Ian even mentions his love for the stories from Ken Penders, he read when growing up. His upbring for drama also influenced how he writes. Using the approach of method acting; instead of writing a character, he becomes that character and speaks in their voice.
So, with all of that, I don't know how that could be linked with how he writes for IDW. Of course, he did bring his love for Rob Liefeld. Leading me to guess that you were right about him being a superhero fan and the genre influencing his writing. But the rest doesn't add up (or at least to my knowledge. To any of you reading this who happens to spot something in the works Ian's passionate about, that I mentioned, which parallels with IDW; feel free to let me know). Especially with his "method writing". Doesn't make sense for him to be writing in the voice of Sonic, yet don't understand Sonic himself.
[Matttt's Archie Sonic video: th-cam.com/video/xzor44qgKnA/w-d-xo.html]
A guy in this comment section said that Ian's writing feels more like he is writing himself talking instead of a fictional character, so that's maybe something.
His “method” is turning every other character into himself, not the other way around…
Your problems with sonic comics are the problems of ALL COMICS.
The marvel/DC comic experience is... allot of things happen but... it don't mather at all? No character progression?? Status quo reset?
Ye… he literally says that in the video…
@@Nextliar I mean, what's ONE MORE DAY of pretending it all matters until the fans get alienated about apider-man actually having a fulfilling life?
@@murilosampaio1264 not to mention the 8 deaths, paul, morlun killing MVC spidey, etc
@masonasaro2118 Marvel just hates Spider-Man and either thinks Spider-Man fans hate him too (they sorta do tbh lol) or hate both the fans and the character equally
7:27
The reason Tails uses the Cyclone is because we gotta show how he totally should've kicked Phantom Chaos' ass in Forces and taken down Eggman's army himself from the start and how STUPID Sonic Team was for letting him BETRAY his flawless character development from the Adventure games
Wasn't a betrayal when his best friend had died and it became basically mentally unstable which is kind of accurate for his character yeah they tell you tales has lost it and that's the reason he couldn't fight it's not the only time this has happened
i sighed really hard when ppl were drawing parallels between metal virus and that irl virus thing that happened and calling it clever
I like the fang bean and bark trio because there's a severe lack of villains who aren't robots. Character vs. character is always more exciting. It's also heavily alluded to multiple times that bark isn't actually a bad guy. In the fang series it's basically insinuated that bean and bark are just along for the ride.
@Rhyme_Time They just failed to make a big enough rogue's gallery. You can make way more villains just sticking with the themes of the Classic Era (like hunters/outdoorsmen).
@@galten7361 Witchcarters and the Battle Bird Armada worked in that regard, but they were treated as one offs rather than a set piece to alternate or even combine with Eggman.
This tendency was awful from the 2000s and it's starting to return after they tone that down in the 10s (except Boom).
19:06 you don't know how long i've waited to hear you say these exact words.
I don't even try to hate on Archie that much but I've been anticipating this video for so damn long.
The metal virus could've done a "true goodness can't be corrupted" thing with Super Sonic and Silver, with the super hedgehogs bringing back the hearts of the zombies, giving them the power to realise the goodness within them or something. Idk, I haven't thought about it too much.
I think the thing that will satisfy you is if we get a new sonic manga written by shiro maekawa. Written in Japanese, translated into English. And it doesn’t have to be unique stories, they can be the stories of every single sonic game so far just in manga form , one game per chapter or something. and that would be a product that I’m sure you would love. And I would to.
22:06 CAN WE TALK ABOUT THAT CYLOOP? i'm not gonna download the game to just to try it but is the tech just letting go of boost and boosting in another direction while still holding cyloop?
Thank you for this! I especially loved your views on Amy in these comics, because as someone who's been an avid Amy defender and who use to be my favorite character I'm glad to hear how someone realizes that she isn't the same character. While I initially praised IDW Amy, I think it was just more of the fact that she wasn't just generic female character, which is what she is reduced to in later issues. For me Amy in recent times has suffered from what I like to call (and labeled on TV Tropes) as Chickification. Almost everyone unanimously says that Amy has "improved" or "received" development, yet what exactly developed about her? The only thing that changed was that she doesn't like Sonic anymore, otherwise? Every attribute related to her character isn't her character. And for me these leads into what I dislike the most about modern female characters nowadays, they have turned into controversial mouthpieces where every element about them has to be a giant Vs war. And Amy is one of the worst in this regard, first she is criticized for being boy crazy, now she's hated for being boring. It's this weird shift where people put female characters in lose/lose situations. That is if they aren't inserting political rhetoric into the equation. I hate how every attribute of a female character has to involve a political fit from someone who's just inserting systemic issues into something they think is there, just because it's a problem they want to rant about.
Not everything in relation is political or meant to be portrayed in such a way. yet despite ranting how "double standards" are (especially regarding Amy) they ironically place Amy (and female characters in general) in a double standard. (Like criticizing Amy for chasing Sonic with a hammer, while ignoring Sonic's contribution entirely, even the times it was deserved just because "female abusing male" when that's not what it is) Especially when it plays no part in or influences how these characters are written, it's just people inserting salty political issues into character specifics. That was the point of Amy's original inception, Sonic and Amy were made to be incapable with each other. Amy wants to keep a guy who's known to be on the move tied down, while Sonic is a guy who keeps running. The entire point is that this isn't a relationship that can work, and its entirely played off Amy's persistence to make it work. Female character has an attitude? She's a bitch. Female character has a temper or negative characteristics "toxic" she's the protagonist and or is strong? "Girlboss" this Samey way of thinking is everywhere. Like how people criticize Princess Zelda for having her own game because "woke" despite saying she should have her own game (especially considering how Link now being playable will step on Zelda's toes, as now all it will do is cause people to prefer Link to Zelda in ZELDA's game!) or Vivian from Paper Mario being "woke" because she's trans. But if you write a male character in the same way, sure there will be backlash or distain, but it wouldn't be nearly as hyperbolic as it is with female characters, unless they are an in-your-face hate sink. I think Amy wouldn't get nearly as hated if she were male tbh, and this comes from the fact Amy was always criticized for being one dimensional, when yet how was she any less dimensional than anyone else or either served the same role or had basic characteristics? Outside of Shadow and some minor characters who really got that deep into character? I miss when female characters could be written to be sassy or display a level of aggression, there's a place for wallflowers, but don't make that define them! And even so there's better ways to write them compared to how they shifted Amy. It's like if Nintendo randomly decided to say "Princess Peach isn't a damsel in distress anymore, so now Illumination Peach is her character" like you just replace one trope with another you don't progress the character.
Nearly every reaction to Amy was either very exaggerated and fueled by surface level observations (such as her character in Sonic Heroes, which isn't even remotely how she's displayed) or played up to be worse than what she was. And it annoys me how her modern version gets labeled as "developed" or "better" when these are the same people who didn't like the character TO BEGIN with (not to mention people who used "she's more mature" when 1: immaturity doesn't automatically make a character bad, and 2: comparisons to her Boom-Modern era were unfair comparisons for characters MADE to be different from Amy, even though Boom Amy wasn't mature, she just expressed her feels differently and tbh the whole "secret lover" trope is more overused and cliched than the fangirl trope), and only come to like the character because she appeals to them. She is no longer what THEY don't want her to be and is now what they WANT her to be, and Ian doing this to her character isn't a surprise when you see how he intentionally wrote her this way based off of the same mindset. Especially since I think she is WAY underrated in the Archie Comics, which not only write her accurately she feels very much in line with Amy in the games back then or Sonic X, just in a different context and more freedom to go on her own adventures. (For instance, how they do their version of the Blaze half of Sonic Rush is SO much better for Amy's character than what actual Rush did to her) It's also why I don't entirely buy her being a stalker either, since Sonic is a guy always on the move and it makes sense, she would chase him.
I also feel people misinterpret Amy's involvement with Team Sonic, since she has always been marketed as Sonic's #4, its just fans didn't see her that way, Amy was just apart of the group in a different way. She wasn't one of the boys, she became part of the adventure through her own involvement. Amy now just feels like "Sonic's friend who is a girl"..
Amy now has basically become an idealized version of what people want her to be. (Which I also feel is sexist because it's saying a female character is solely defined by how YOU WANT her to be, and if she isn't she's bad) She isn't relating to Sonic in any kind of way, has zero-character flaws, she's basically a perfect character. And I do want to say this, I really dislike this new "mother hen" character she has as her entire personality in Modern media because to me it feels very much like a backwards progression. Female characters (especially in sitcoms) were always criticized for being a generic voice of reason character who's only purpose was to oppose fun or be a passive love interest, this defined female characters in the 70s, 80s and even 90s, and it was often hand in hand with the mother hen persona, the overtly passive female character who's only trait is being prim, proper and polite and has ZERO negative characteristics. Doesn't that feel kind of sexist? Because to me its saying the only way a female character is good is to make her passive and motherly, while displaying traits like aggression is a no no. Even though you can still have a temper or be aggressive and still be a nice or caring person. When it comes to her leadership role in IDW it feels very much like a role Sally Acorn would play in Archie or a superhero-based character. In Sonic Heroes or any time Amy had a leaderlike role it was always more of a motivational/assertive kind. She was more into going straight for the danger but uplifting her friends in order to keep them moving. She wasn't a military strategist who plans battle strategies or anything, that doesn't come from any kind of progression it's just what they inserted for her. How in any way does that go with her character from CD-Black Knight?
I agree with almost everything you said. For me, the stories that got Amy right are Adventure 1 and 2, Heroes, Riders, Zero Gravity, Sonic Battle, Sonic X and to a lesser extent Unleashed and 06.
@@henriquezioto8760 you gotta be kidding me.. heroes!? seriously!? that's gotta be the worse characterization she ever had in heroes because sonic heroes only regressed her obsession with sonic in the entire story and that made her character from S tier(sonic adventure 2) to D tier.. the writers completely misunderstood her character in heroes
Amy isn't just an obsessive fan girl that's the thing..
She's caring, compassionate (these some of the traits we've seen in adventure 1 and later seen it in frontiers so that's in character for her) and bubbly, positive and optimistic and silly and energetic.. and have a little temper something IDW comics has for the most part it mostly did understood the character I'm not saying it's perfect but you know just saying in heres they just regressed her obessession with sonic and created a toxic dynamic between sonic and amy...
Now as for frontiers her character well in my opinion is good but again it's divisive as hell so I'm just gonna remain neutral her and talk about what made so many fans mad and upset about Amy's character in frontiers for some reason her character now is boring to OG fans and her cat-mouse dynamic with sonic is almost non-existent-she has no energy or being bubbly whatsoever just mostly depressed(which it's kinda justified due tone of the story but again I will stay neutral) and her character is basically changed just a little bit and grown up and you know aka matured and because of that the OG fans thinking that frontiers took away what made her character good and she feels boring while people on other hand thinking the reverse.
Same thing happening with IDW comics some fans like the characterization the OG fans hate it..see the fandom is just really divisive so you would expect this kind of criticism and reviews like this about IDW dislike the IDW sonic series as a whole..
But back to my point Amy's character was the worst characterization when I played heroes I could tell the writer didn't understand the character...so yeah I heavily disagree she had the best characterization in heroes cause it's not but it's arguably worse in free riders Jesus...
Holy crap, are you me? Cause you've put into words every single thought I've had about Amy!
Like, I'm inclined to add my own words to this argument, but I'd just be repeating most of your points lol You've said everything that I could say, and more! Keep on cooking ;)
@@JakeThehedgehog-m1x I really don't see how Heroes Amy is bad, like at all. Its just people grossly overacting to het character. I find it a MASSIVE hyperbole to say its Amy at her worst. Are you really going to sit there and say Heroes Amy is worse than Battle or Free Riders Amy? When Free Riders Amy is the worst version of her? Its literally the ONE version of Amy that feels as if it was written by someone who disliked her. All she does in that game is treat her teammates poorly and act like a brat, even toward Sonic. And not for any justifiable or comedic reason either. I also don't find her obsession with Sonic a problem because it doesn't come at a determient to anything, she's just channeling her love for him into confidence and is focused on helping her teammates find their friends and stopping Eggman. Plus, the team had a REASON to track Sonic beyond Amy just wants to, and so what if Amy saw it as her way to meet him? It's not like she's doing anything that comes at the expense of her friends or acting bad, Heroes literally continues her character from the Adventure games and even gets a dose of sassy lines thrown in. It's also a MUCH better and more in character showing of her leadership skills, she motives her team to keep going and of the three is treated as the one guiding the other two. Rather than make her a completely different character who's all of a sudden, a tactician and military strategist?
Amy isn't a fangirl, but it's not like what you described is any better, she's literally just a girl. Which is more regressive because you're saying a female character NEEDS to be defined by their gender to be progressive, rather than just play on what she had and balance it out. LOL All of those traits listed just blend into the same archetype, being caring and compassionate largely fall under the same type, which she already had to begin with so it isn't really making her any deeper than "fangirl" she's just nice, that's all. She also doesn't really display any kind of temper, at all. Not in Frontiers, Dream Team, IDW (except maybe the rare occasion) all of her traits could just amount to one thing, she's a nice person, which isn't really more complex it's just trading one character type for another, and just because YOU happen to find one better doesn't make it objective. Also going by what you listed she has ZERO negative flaws at all, she's basically just perfect. The only time she feels like an actual character in Modern Media is Murder of Sonic the Hedgehog
I also don't really agree that Sonic and Amy were toxic, in their worst portrayals yeah, but literally the entire point was the fact they weren't compatible.
Girls being boy obssessed is just a reality you can’t admit any more bc it goes against
[THE MESSAGE]
Some of your takes on Ian Flynn and his writing were sprinkled into some other videos and with how you talk about Sonic stories having me think very critically about how I felt/feel about them, I was curious to see you discuss this area of his work. Suffice to say it's a very unique piece of criticism I've never seen anyone talk about.
When I got into IDW, I was really into the art and action scenes and how "the characters were back" (different feelings today on that last one). I really liked Battle for Angel Island because it looked cool and had all these characters but when I look at it in the angle of how much substance the plot or wealth of action this arc had....yeah it's kinda just a reintroductory period with a very repetitive idea that just switches out its characters a lot and has a lot of fighting. Now my personal opinion is a bit skewed because I for the longest time, loved to imagine Sonic characters in fights so seeing the amount of fighting in this with such good art made me feel good but I understand why someone else might bring up the more traversal based action of the games or how the crowd of characters blends in and don't feel significant.
I have always held that the Metal Virus was a very awesome story arc and I like a lot of the elements of it. Hell, I'll NEVER like the Deadly Six and I still bow my head down and say they did a good job with not only that but also how the characters deal with them. That being said, you make excellent points about how the Sonic crew probably should just go up to the face ship itself, raid the place, stop Eggman and work on a cure after everything is said and done instead of focusing on the civilians and having the infection rate grow. It's kinda like in Adventure 2 where the game kinda hits an awkward filler portion between Eggman blowing up the moon and Team Sonic actually trying to get to space so we can have more levels for characters. Just feels like a lapse in judgement. The Super Sonic climax also has some good criticism when looking at how it's used in other stories. The Adventures, Rush, Shadow, 06, Unleashed, the storybook games. These sequences have more to them than "Sonic uses the things to become stronger". The only times it doesn't are in stuff like the Advance trilogy and Generations where the form feels incredibly shoehorned in. Super Sonic and Super Silver are exactly that, Super Sonic and Super Silver. There isn't anything story or meaning wise other than "they needed the Chaos Emeralds to beat the bad guys". I'm not gonna say it's not hype but Super Sonic stuff to me is better when it's hype *and* means something greater than "we need to beat the guy and save the day".
After that, not much else for me. I stuck around until about issue 45 because...I just kinda stopped caring. I became more vigilant to the stories flaws and it feels like nothing has progressed or left any impact on the characters. I liked Belle and thought it was the only really cool thing to come out of Mr. Tinker but in general nothing really hit like the Metal Virus to me. IDW just felt like it was spinning it's wheels and just...doing cool stuff and even for me who's a very simple "I like cool stuff" kinda guy, can only take a bunch of cool stuff with little substance to it for so long.
Just wanted to share my personal thoughts and say I think you've done an excellent job of explaining why you don't like IDW Sonic that much.
@castform7 Mr. Tinker misses that Eggman is just a representation of Man. Him needing to be memory wiped to be capable of heroism missed that.
I'd argue that even in the Advance games, Super Sonic is handled pretty well. I liked how in Advance 2, he transformed into Super only after seeing Cream cry, and he almost does it in a fit of rage. It feels totally in line with Sonic's character, and how he absolutely HATES seeing people cry more than anything. This is the same guy that tried to cheer up Elise no matter what, the guy who comforted Shara in her time of need. It's a great example of his compassion overriding his more self-centered aspects.
Which makes his IDW comics even more jarring taking this into account. Sonic just sitting there watching Cream and the others cry during the Metal Virus was what turned me off the story entirely. That should've been the turning point, where Sonic decided enough is enough and he tries to cheer her up while dealing with this issue head on. But it's just sort of brushed aside to make way for more angst.
That moment in particular is the perfect example of this comic's failings.
@@felixdaniels37 You know what? You make an excellent point. I can't believe I forgot about that Super Sonic cutscene in Advance 2. It's in my top 3 transformation scenes.
I do think that lends into Pariah's point in the video of just getting a group to the Faceship and beating Eggman to stop the giant dumps of virus all over the place and make the threat much smaller. The melodrama did get a bit intense and while I think that was good in making very interesting stakes, it could also feel like a drag and extra bad stuff just keeps happening to make everyone even more sad.
@@felixdaniels37I'm sorry but force is kind of takes into account Sonic has changed and no one is like taking that in if a new game refined a character's personality to where they have change stop looking into the past for all he would have done this or this he wouldn't have now ensure he still kept some traits I guess that wasn't one of them so why is this such a problem all of his friends were sad in forces and negatively affected people you don't see Sonic crashing out over that why because they have changed his personality to where he doesn't do it as often he's changed a bit especially in the one game they're building what it was a bad game but it's still accurate
I think the thing that I've most appreciated from these "Sonic Story" videos is how applicable many of the insights and complaints that you've had pertaining to the franchise's narratives are applicable to writing endeavors more generally. Much of this video's criticism of the IDW comics - that having a detailed story with lots of events can still feel hollow if there isn't anything of much thematic substance occurring - is something that I've sort of been aware of for a long time, but even though I've come across plenty instances of such in fanfiction, I could never understand why I never really connected with stories that seemed to have interesting premises with lots of stuff going on. After having watched this video, I'm in a much better place to articulate my issues. So thanks for that.
And yeah, same on action scenes' overabundance really killing the flow of a story for me. I've seen a lot of people claim that they should be totally avoided in literature because visual mediums can do them a lot better, but MY problem has always been that I feel as though they're a lazier form of settling conflicts than many other methods that I've seen in fiction, and literature has the most avenues of conflict resolution available to it thanks to the audience's being able to peer into characters' internal thoughts. Though I will say that puzzle-esque "fight scenes" can be quite appreciated, in that while the conflict may have a fight's window dressing, the actual resolution is based on taking advantage of an unconventional weakness of the opponent's that skips a drawn-out sequence of punches and kicks. Too bad these "Sonic" comics don't have that.
It's cathartic to know I wasn't the only one underwhelmed after hearing the writing in the IDW comics be hyped up so much. Reading them wasn't actively unpleasant or anything (other than the hamfisted references to Crush 40 lyrics in the dialogue lmao), but I finished Battle for Angel Island feeling like I could've done something better with my time. I'm not opposed to Ian Flynn taking up writing duties for the games going forward, but I hope he'll take criticism into account as he hones his skills. He seems like he's receptive to feedback, and he clearly cares a lot about these characters, so I'm optimistic.
Yeah people were so tired of the awful game stories that they started overhyping these comic stories, which leads to people who haven't read it to create expectations that can't be achieved.
As a die hard fan of the Sonic comics I have this to say to you Pariah695: You're so right! I expected to go into this video disagreeing with you on everything but for most of the video I felt like we were on the same page. I just don't really let some of those things hamper my enjoyment. Yeah several of the characters don't get to have major character development and it can feel like action figures being put together. Because ultimately, as sucky as it is, these comics primarily exist to sell the games and not to tell a story. I do have some disagreements or different views that I would like to highlight here: Characterization and Themes.
Let's start with Characterization since it's less different to your views. I have probably said that the IDW Comics feel like a return to form for the characters, and while I can't speak for others, I never meant it as "They're written the way they were always meant to" because they're not. The IDW versions of these characters feel like a natural evolution and combination of previous versions of themselves from the games. Yeah Sonic is more quippy but they explain why, through subtext. It's incredibly clear that even if Sonic doesn't truly see himself as a hero, other people do and put pressure on him. This is, in my opinion, a reasonable explanation for that shift in his character. When he has amnesia as Mr. Needlemouse he is more free-spirited and carefree, reflecting how, without these influences, he returns back to form. This admittedly only applies to the Modern writing as the Classic writing fails to convey these ideas, probably due to these characters being treated more as mascots then characters. As mentioned earlier that doesn't really erase your problem with the characters but it's what I mean when I say they feel like themselves.
Themes however are something I have to disagree with you on. These stories have themes and pretty clear ones at that. You highlight how the first arc didn't have a theme and said it would have been better if they had a simple theme of learning to trust your friends. There should have been a moment where Sonic rushes in to face off against an enemy on his own, realizes he can't do that, and then asks his friends for help. Except that did happen in Issue #7. Sonic went to go fight Metal Sonic but quickly realized he was in over his head and retreated. Later when Metal gets even more power he asks for help from the Resistance. It's small because Sonic already knows the value of teamwork, he just had to be reminded of it. But it being small doesn't mean it's non-existent. The theme of the Metal Virus arc is not to give up even when things look dire. While Sonic obviously never fully considers giving up, we see that as time goes on, he feels more and more hopeless. Believing he might not be able to save the day. But he obviously pushes through. Him teaming up with Silver at the end to turn Super, while having less to due with the theme of the Metal Virus arc itself, highlights how Sonic has grown from the previous arc. He once again turns to his friends and does so way earlier in Metal Virus then he does in the first arc. Belle, Surge, and Kit's arcs are RIPE with theme, practically DRIPPING with it. It's about parental abuse. All three characters "grow up" believing that their "parental" figures know what's best for them. But they learn that these figures are not who they seem and how they learn is important in highlighting their differences. Eggman leaves Belle, already tainting the image of him in her mind and meaning that when she does finally confront the truth, she is able to push past and move on. Mr. Tinker represents how our views as children can be simple-minded and flawed. How our parents can appear to be one thing because they are hiding their more crueler side, intentionally or not. Meanwhile Surge and Kit are actively abused by Dr. Starline. Even once they realize that they've been brainwashed it's hard to change because it's all they've ever known. Even if they can recognize what's happening to them as abuse it can be incredibly difficult to stop that abuse from influencing you. Yeah, it's portrayed a bit simply in the comic, not going into the nitty-gritty. Because it's a kid comic. But kids go through parental abuse and having characters they can see themselves in and understand is important. I know because I was one of those kids. And while I'd rather not go into my parents in particular, this comic was there for me when I started to unravel these feeling and this story resonated with me. It made Sonic one of the most influential media in my life all because of it's themes and messaging. These stories do have themes and meanings and even if the comic isn't for you, I hope you can at least see the value in them. You and anyone else reading this comment.
That was really the gist of what I wanted to say. As mentioned I do enjoy your video and agree with a lot of points made! I just wanted to share my side as a die-hard IDW Sonic fan!
Okay, about the "it's clear sonic doesn't truly see himself as a hero, other people do and put pressure on him", that was always the case and yet he would still never claim to be a hero or care about anything like that. The whole premise of sonic is that he does whatever he wants, he embodies freedom. Why is sonic suddenly submitting to peer pressure now? Why is the natural evolution of sonic actually a regression to back before sonic 1?
@@igirjei3717 Sonic claims to be a hero in Sonic Heroes "We're Sonic Heroes!", Sonic Runners Adventure "All in a day's work for a hero like me!". And as mentioned this isn't a natural evolution of Sonic as he was portrayed in Sonic 1. It's accounting for the 2010's games where they didn't really care. This is probably because A. Sega wanted Sonic to be portrayed that way and B. It's more interesting as a writer. Sure theoretically they could have ignored how the characters acted during the 2010's and moved forward but instead they incorporated those differences in a way that, to me at least, feels natural. That's takes skill. Sonic didn't call himself a hero before or see himself as one but he started describing himself as one over time. It being because of the pressure others put on him makes a ton of sense. Sonic used to travel the world alone but he kept running into the same people, people who look up to him. In Zeti Hunt Zavok calls Sonic out on his morality and Sonic hesitates before standing by his belief. It's not too much of a stretch to say that another situation could have happened and Sonic caved, especially with something as simple as a word.
@@RainDroplet-l5o do we really have to count the classic title drop as a declaration of sonic thinking of himself as a hero? When you really think about it, naming your group of friends as a team after yourself sounds like a pretty shitty thing to do, but why the hell would shadow, rouge, or omega willingly name themselves "team dark"? If sonic would say "We're Sonic Heroes!!!" Then why wouldn't team dark say "Ah yeah, we're Team Dark!!!" That just doesn't feel like natural dialogue and I dismiss that fully as a title drop moment
I'd also dismiss runners adventure purely because that was written in the 2010's when Sonic's characterization was completely different. We could also say that sonic is egotistical, doesn't even hear out his best friend, and jokes about literally everything as if he was half his age, but I wouldn't say that's very accurate to his true character either
And lo and behold, you do acknowledge that it's playing off the 2010's games, which is actually correct, so I've heard. I've seen people say that Ian's sonic is based on "Roger's sonic"
And the thing is, I would completely agree with your take that it feels like natural evolution of sonic as he was in 2010's, if not for an issue I take with that. How did we go from his characterization in black knight to the way it was in colors? Now there's just this gap in character development (or replacement, lowkey) and so we have to believe that 2000's sonic just flat out disappeared and was replaced with a skinwalker in colors, and now we're building off of that. I have to ask, *why*? What makes 2010's sonic a more interesting character to build off of than 2000's sonic? And in all honesty, there's no way to fix it. Nobody wants to be told their favorite games are simply not canon due to a shift in tone, sega doesn't want to acknowledge that major things like the personality of the protagonist can, will, and has changed on a whim, and most hardcore sonic fans have 0 attachment to 2010's Sonic. It's unfixable, and I'm pretty unhappy with that
But to speak a bit more on the "sonic starts to see himself as a hero" thing, I'm not gonna tell you "YOU CANT FEEL THIS WAY INTERNALLY YOURE WROOOOOOONG" because it really doesn't matter at the end of the day. Whatever floats your boat, right? I can totally believe that Ian's sonic is an evolved version of meta era sonic, but there's simply no way to convince me that meta era sonic is the same as pre-2010's sonic, and as such, there will always be a disconnect that makes the characters feel off. Modern santiago is a little better, but I don't want modern santiago to be improved, I just want 2000s sonic
@RainDroplet-l50 Sonic Heroes legit has Sonic tell Metal Sonic that he welcomes fighting him again. That doesn't support IDW's take on Sonic at at all and if anything shows he's supposed to be into battle and would only actively keep around villains if they were amusing.
@igirjei3717 The JP scripts of the games still have the cast broadly act the same as they do circa 06.
1:13:40 This sounds so ridiculous without context. "How dare you use logic to explain Super Silver." 😂
He doesn't say that at all. It's "we're using logic to justify this kind of finale?!", and it doesn't sound ridiculous out of context. Don't know why you made that comment
@@RightNowsReverie Do you not know what it means to paraphrase something?
I don't know why you made that comment. :)
@@AizakkuAnalysis But you're using speech marks. They are used when you quote someone. That's English 101
@@RightNowsReverie Again, look up what paraphrasing is. You can paraphrase and still put the sentence in quotation marks.(Though it's not necessary) This isn't an academic study.
Please don't talk to me about English 101 when you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Thank you & go winge somewhere else. 🙏🏽
@@AizakkuAnalysis Fair point, and I'm sorry I said it without remembering the concept of paraphrasing. But your comment had a timestamp in it, and talked about how it "sounds so ridiculous without context". Giving the impression of that is what he said in the video. Maybe it's not English 101, but it's TH-cam comment 101 (or at least taken from what is set up as the norm over there). In those comments, they quote what is said in the video. And from what I remember, paraphrasing is used for summaries of texts, not laughing at how funny something a guy said in a video is.
Also, what's the point of telling me to go winge somewhere else? I'm not complaining for the sake of complaining. I'm just trying to point out (what seems to me) a mistake in your comment.
I agree, I dislike it when stories make the main driving force in logic. In more action oriented things like this, themes and emotions take precedent over logic. Unless it's something that actively interferes with the main focus, things in stories are allowed to be illogical. Trying to have a reasonable explanation for everything is unnecessary and only distracts from the emotional core in a story like this. There's a reason when someone points somrthing out that doesn’t make sense, a lot of times people just go "It's a movie!" because, yeah, it is a movie. You're here for the characters or the themes or the journey. Not a detailed logical explanation of each event
I feel the same way, and yeah you're totally right there's not much substance to those comics, it's sad because Sonic is meant to inspire. Another thing that bothers me about them is they rarely visit new places with new characters- Sonic is supposed to travel the world, that's such a basic thing about Sonic stories. It's always the SAME video game locations, the SAME badnik designs and bad guys, nothing experimental or crazy.
And that makes it so much less interesting even on a surface level. For instance, why bring Metal Overlord back? It could at the very MINIMUM be a new design. But instead we get a less interesting telling of Sonic Heroes with no deeper existential questions about identity posed by Metal Sonic this time around. :(
@HydraBread You can argue Sonic even running into so many of the same characters over and over misses that Sonic is supposed to be a wanderer. The comics make this problem much more obvious.
Sonic does travel in the IDW comics; he traveled the world with Blaze in an afternoon, sightseeing and eating snacks.
@@SuperboyLilly I think you're missing the point, Sonic travels to locations that are already explored in the video games (the locations he visits with Blaze are from Unleashed for instance). If it were structured like a Sonic game, the arcs of the comic would all be set in new locations. That is almost always the case in Sonic, with few exceptions.
@@HydraBread The point is Sonic is too fast; Sonic in Unleashed even says that running around the planet is just a jog to him.
@@SuperboyLilly When did he ever say that
1:01:21 - 1:02:08 As one of Cream's biggest fans, I couldn't agree more with all of this! It's *SO* infuriating that Cream gets treated in Archie and IDW as this harmless and defenseless character who needs to be kept out of danger, when the games consistently portrayed Cream as a character who can keep up with the heroes and kick ass just as good if not better than them. And it's not a purely gameplay thing either as a key part of Cream's story in Sonic Battle has her fight off Chaos Gamma to defend Emerl and *win* . So either Cream is an action-capable character and IDW is just going completely against that for whatever fucking reasons. Or Cream never was meant to be an action-capable character, to which I have to ask *why was she made playable to begin with??*
It pisses me off so much cause the reason I love Cream so much is because she's a polite little girl who nonetheless can kick serious ass. But ever since the 2000's, it feels like her character is being horribly regressed into a defenseless civilian to be kept away from adventures, and it's like... Why? What does this accomplish? You're just ruining a perfectly good character and ensuring she never becomes more popular.
Another thing that annoys me too much is the fact they don't explore more in Cream as a character.
Like there's a lot of potencial into explaining how she has a chao as a pet, how is she able to run at high speeds, family backstories cuz why not, her relationship with the chaos and how she could have an essencial role in future games with her ability to talk with chaos, who knows even being able to face Chaos from SA1 but nope, writers just say Cream is a normal Child who have a normal chao named Chese as a pet, that's all, no more story.
You notably ignored Ian's run of Pre-boot archie, the reason why people like him to begin with. Other than that, I mostly agree with the IDW takes.
@@endosaurus1404 for that I recommend watching "The Rise and Fall of Ian Flynn", because it goes through Ian's entire run on Archie and IDW.
Ian benefited from the setups and characters left by the previous writers, but when the chance to restart the story from scratch with the reboot he fumbled the bag.
@@CanaldoZenny I mildly agree with that because he did infact benefit from the stuff that came before him, and since he was also a fan of all that stuff he would expand on it. The Reboot is alright for what it is and it's certainly better than IDW. I do think it's unfair to say he dropped the ball because by the end of Pre-boot as it was essentially his own story at that point, his own story built and expanded upon on those that came before which he had to completely drop due to things outside of his control. Of course the reboot was never going to be as good to begin with, because we never got any actual conclusion with pre-boot which left a sour taste in peoples mouths. He had to bring elements in from the games while also juggling the Archie characters that were allowed to come over. Characters that had to basically start from scratch after all that development they had. The reboot was cool for what it was but it was obvious something was lost, and I don't really blame Ian for that, given that it ended too before a lot of development could happen.
I've been reading a lot of the comments left in the video, and you're by far the person i agreed with most frequently@@endosaurus1404!
Great video personally I don’t mind most of IDW but I definitely agree & hope the writing in the comics & games improves overtime
I’m interested to see how the story of Shadow generations turns out
Also I really appreciate you shouting out scrapnik island my favourite Sonic comic I love that story honestly happy to hear you enjoyed it
What Shadow generations turned out well and it took supplementary material from legit takeovers so everything said in this video was stupid because the takeovers are based on comics and games
your opinions about what sonic and his world should be are extremely limiting. you are applying critique about video games to an entirely different medium and it ends up sounding like the worst of CinemaSins. i broadly agree with the criticisms you have about the idw comics which is exactly why im kind of baffled you didnt even bother to check out anything beyond archie's rebooted continuity. It's a little bit weird you claim to want stories with deeper meaning and yet you write off everything except the stories that are under the most heavy legal scrutiny by Sega. Ian Flynn is constrained by the restictions put upon him, and yet you talk about this stuff as if he didnt have to start from scratch two goddamn times. I think you just don't like comics.
14:00 is your answer now watch the video completely
@@zeanone9257 that's a piss poor answer that ignores the context of the sonic comics and their purpose under archie. he is throwing away 20 years worth of comics because he's afraid of them being too different, obviously one is going to have questions about things like why bean and bark are paired up with nack if he won't bother to understand that this is how theyve been depicted on the page for almost 20 years. anyone with a brain stem and a passing knowledge of SatAM would have no problem wrapping their heads around the archie sonic comics, there are multiple safe onboarding points for the comics which he would've realized if he bothered to do any research. your "answer" only highlights the problem I have with the way this guy conceives of the world of sonic the hedgehog, anyone trying to assert that sonic's world has a canon at this point is fighting a steep uphill battle and i am unable to see it as anything other than trying to find justifications for a flawed interpretation of the franchise. I mean seriously, how many times is Sonic gonna save the world before he's allowed to consider himself a hero to this guy?
@@CDoss-bc7tv he never said that he was throwing away Archie he was aware of the some of the arche lore
Background lore so ye he has it
@@zeanone9257 if he was fully aware he would be less confused about bean and bark, about amy's characterization, and frankly he wouldn't be measuring how good a comic was solely by how it compares to the games. If comparing it to the games is all he wants to do he could at least check out some of ian flynn's pre reboot archie comics where he spent a notable amount of effort making the world be more like how it is in the games, but he would clearly rather throw out the baby with the bathwater and make himself look foolish to anyone that would go into this video actually hoping for a real discussion about the comics. again, i cannot stress this enough, i agree with a lot of what he has to say, but by closing himself off to any comics that came before he is missing out on prior context and making his arguments suffer as a result.
The problem with pariah is he doesn’t even want story in sonic in the first place, so all of this just feels like hot air spoken from a viewpoint most people don’t share.
i really don't get how people say that the comics are better than the games in terms of storytelling.
they've always felt like byproducts to the games that try to simulate the stories from them.
but never do the comics feel like something exactly if not better than how the games tell the stories of sonic.
at the end of the day, as how many people that think similarly would put it, the comics just don't feel like sonic.
It’s because people have different opinions on different things. It shouldn’t be shocking that there are people out there who simply prefer the comics over the games.
Long-running franchises are going to change with time and mediums. The comics ARE Sonic, they're just a version of Sonic that Pariah (and others) don't like.
Thank you for actually taking some extra time to get into Ian's characterization of the characters. I am sick of people pretending like "Oh, the characters are back to normal now!" No. They are not. Personally, I am even more annoyed with the new direction Frontiers took with the characters because with games like Colours, Generations, Lost World & similar stuff people at LEAST overwhelmingly agreed that these characters were not the same characters anymore. At least the fanbase overall had some common ground.
But now? People just delude themself into thinking "Oh, we are back to the Unleashed & Black Knight days! Finally!"
No. We are even further removed from these great stories due to how much the fanbase hypes up the new direction. It's terrible and personally speaking, this franchise is almost dead to me. In my opinion it just gets worse and worse and worse.
Unleashed, Black Knight and Secret Rings are all ridiculous; slapping a "Sonic" label on top of something that would be original / new IPs (Frontiers is also badly written)
@@IZZYCHAN13 Doesn't matter. The stories are good and the characterization between the originals and those games mentioned is consistent enough. Your complains do not matter in the bigger picture because people enjoyed these stories, people liked them and that is all that matters at the end of the day.
Except black knight and unleashed are completely off character. Secret rings is in characters
@@tadaokou4919I mean, that’s a bit hypocritical to say given your comment. A lot of people really like Flynn’s writing in Frontiers and how well he writes the characters. Why are you so pressed about that?
@@bluefire9285 It sounds hypocritical because you exclude this important part of my previous comment: "and the characterization between the originals and those games mentioned is consistent enough".
If you look at japanese Sonic media (which is the canon one up until Frontiers) Sonic is pretty consistent throughout the series. If we just look at the Classics and compare those to everything else than Sonic does evolve into something different, yes. But it's not as drastic of a shift in comparison to Unleashed to Frontiers...or Unleashed to Colours for that matter.
Sonic in Frontiers is basically a completely different character and like I said...the same also happened with Colours-Forces. But at least with Colours-Forces people overall had common ground.
Also, why am I so pressed about that? It's because Frontiers story sucks. It's terrible and in my opinion people only delude themself into liking it. Sage is just a little bit better in comparison to characters like the Deadly Six. She is better. But not by a lot.
If you want details look at JebZones video on the Frontiers story or wait for Pariah to make his Sonic Frontiers story video...or just look at this video right here in which Pariah critiques a lot of stuff about the comics which can be perfectly translated to Sonic Frontiers story.
"Oh, why are you so pressed about people liking Frontiers story?" It's because people pretend that Frontiers is something which it just is not. It's not a return to form. It honestly is the opposite.
This is gonna be the new direction for Sonic? This terrible storytelling? Great, I'm jumping of this trainwreck. The characters I once loved are obviously dead.
This may be a hot take, but I'm just gonna say it... The comics are overrated.
I feel like people hype them up a LOT, but I've never understood the interest. They just don't feel like Sonic. I read some of the IDW comics, and they weren't anything special. Kinda anticlimactic even. All the new characters introduced feel like OCs rather than genuine Sonic characters, and it feels like all of the Sonic cast act like Soldiers. As Pariah said, they feel like superheroes, like the Avengers, rather than something you would see in the Sonic games.
The idw comics are just a vehicle for Flynn to show off his lesbian OCs lol
@lasercraft32 "act like soldiers"
Recall how the Metal Virus had Team Dark commanding a squad of furries in uniforms with shields.
I feel like people don't even understand what their criticism is when they say "It doesn't feel like Sonic."
What you mean isn't "Oh no, it's like the Avengers!" as if Sonic has some habit of calling his organized team of supers constantly, going "Sonic Heroes, assemble!" This isn't criticism.
What you *mean* is that, you miss a certain portrayal of the stories/Sonic and fail to grasp the idea that, across a large, long running franchise with different media explored by many different writers, there's going to be variation. You stick to something you enjoyed and when you see something with a similar label but find something different inside, rather than accepting it's different you get upset over it.
This doesn't just apply to Ian Flynn. It's just an inevitable fact- A franchise thing big is going to do different things. Maybe this does feel like superheroes compared to another piece of media? But different doesn't equal bad.
The Sonic fandom is way too used to criticizing things on the basis of something being "different" than it being bad.
@@dailydelphoxI agree that different doesn't equal bad, thing is, many sonic fans don't want different. Lots of sonic fans got different with colors and didn't like it, and fewer, but still some got different with IDW and frontiers and still weren't entirely satisfied. I think that what many sonic fans want is "iteration" or a sort of "natural evolution", not necessarily "different". Hardcore sonic fans are by no means the majority of sonic fans, or gamers in general, but even we like being listened to (not necessarily overcorrected for though)
@@dailydelphoxFirst of all, don’t tell other people what they *mean* to say like you’d know. Second of all, the argument that the comics “don’t feel like Sonic” is completely valid. Stop excusing inconsistent writing.
thank you for posting this video the time you did. it improved my mood quite a bit
1:30:39 This body swap/mind link plot reminds me of the Superior Spider Man storyline from the comics.
So i was gonna write a very long comment dissecting each issue, but i just ate some instant ramen that completely killed my motivation and now that whole comment is going in the trash.
Thanks a lot Ian Flynn.
Dude there's like 72 plus 3 mini spin-offs. Honestly, kinda wanna go to the timeline where you do do that.
I knew somebody was gonna say that lol!@@castform7 But to be fair, it's my fault, i should've been more specific, i meant the first issues of the first arc, then i was gonna talk a little about the other issues i've read, which is very little, i've read some of the first and last issues of the Meta Virus, a few Evan Stanley issues with Belle the Tinkerer, Impostors Syndrome (which i even have a physical copy) and issue 50 and 51, the rest of the Surge saga i had to watch a comic dub by Mariokartgamerdude which had Jehtt on it. I guess i was so demotivated that i didn't even specify that, sorry!
Though now that you mention it, me reviewing every single issue could've been interesting, perhaps i'll still do it one day.
I’ve live long enough to see the fanbase turn on Ian Flynn. The Sonic Cycle is real.
Maybe for some. But not me. I never liked his stuff.
Fr fr I understand why people don't like it, but some people have really reduced the conversation to an Archie Vs IDW conversation despite the fact he's worked on both, so it's always funny when people say it's his fault when the stories are flawed despite also working on some of the best stories in archie. SEGA has a tight leash on the brand now and that in it of itself causes issues for characterization.
Also people saying "limitation breeds creativity" is such a copout because what happens when the Creativity ALSO gets limited by editorials and higher ups?
@@SHORYUKIN-SF6
His Archie output was also extenely flawed. It only looked better back then was because of the dozens upon dozens of books beforehand that are just absolute garbage. The bar was so low that even Ian's rather shallow output was miraculous in comparison. But without that to compare it to, it's much easier to dissect the issues with his writing.
If there were a manga written with big creative input from the people running the story of the games (and no, Ian Flynn on his own doesn't even begin to count), I'd be all over it. I'm not interested in anything that doesn't actually push the plot of the games in any way though. Ideally comics would be connective tissue for the games instead of just random nonsense.
Ian Flynn feels like the type of writer you would want to have around for support, his ideas are great but his execution could use some work, I believe Ian's work is at it's best when he has somebody else helping him write the stuff he comes up with. (I did not read his fan comic but I suppose he writes better when there are no mandates or things limiting his ideas, see his run in archie as an example of the guy completely fumbling when mandates are involved)
edit: I also like scrapnick a lot, would love to see Ian collab with Daniel and see what would come out
The weird thing about "Team Hooligan", is that the only time they team up in the games DOESN'T COUNT! It was just Heavy Magician gaslighting everyone with fan service! Why else would they have separate WANTED posters in Generations?
I don’t think every Sonic story needs to have a deep meaning. It can still be good if it’s fun and entertaining.
You def didn’t watch the full video then because he already says that a Sonic story doesn’t need to have a deep meaning, but the story still needs to be good
@@unkownunkown2420Really, I must’ve missed that then.
@@Skibster-w9l don’t blame you super long video
@@unkownunkown2420 even sonic unleashed you know the game that people praised it as a whole including it's story this mf keep complaining about IDW sonic stories don't have any deep meaning.. it's pointless and nothing matters etc...all that kind of nonsense stuff when the games stories follow the same pattern I mean the 2000's stories I'm not using 2010's cause they're just lackluster in general..so that wouldn't be a good example yes..even some of the games in 2000's like sonic unleashed, secret rings and black knight fall through the same pattern and formula just like IDW sonic stories I mean yes you get some good and compelling moments here and there solely how sonic is written but.. that's it the main reason why the story of those game get praised is because of sonic's characterization in those game and if we go by his logic..then nothing happens in those stories aswell the whole characterization of sonic carries the story and that's it regardless the story of those games it just happens...and the end like nothing really happened or really mattered and just return to the status quo. like even games like the ones I just mentioned have this kind of stories just like IDW yet he and other people praise those game stories and shitting on IDW stories(even if some of them very well written except scrapnik robotnik because they like that one atleast) this fandom just..doesn't know what it wants!!
Ironically even some games like Sonic unleashed, Black Knight, secret follow the similar pattern of IDW sonic's stories sonic's characterization just mostly carry the entire story and then everything just happened and when it's over then they just return to status quo yet they praise the story of those game which again...follow the same pattern and shit on IDW sonic's yeah...I don't think I can take this guy seriously
I finally finished, and as brutally honest as you were, I have to agree. Daniel Barnes is so talented, and he genuinely should write the games compared to Ian...
@_rando_d or maybe not, maybe he should stick to writing cool stuff on one issue comics and maybe only getting called to help out in qiriting major game stories, this is "SEGA hire this man" all over again, the same thing happened to Ian, look where it got us
@@murilosampaio1264 Ians work was bad before the games. If anything, Frontiers is better than most of his work.
@@_rando_d still, I would prefer Barnes sticks to giving us these little treats in form of sweet little one offs
44:49 In sonic heroes sonic says "cause we're sonic heroes" at the end. That is probably the only exception to sonic not calling himself a hero I could remember.
That's a title drop thing. I'd hardly say that counts.
It's not even a title drop, it's a reference to the title drop by other character
@@Pariah6950 Wait am I missing something? Why is it actually called Sonic Heroes then?
@@Pariah6950 I don't disagree with what you said about sonic, its just in that particular moment that he technically refers to himself as a hero that I found funnily out of character just for a title drop.
@existential_narwal9257 The same ending also has him tell Metal Sonic he welcomes fighting him again. IDW didn't bring up Sonic finding his enemies amusing in the big scenes and framed it just as him having a code.
I don’t think Idw Sonic is as bad as some people make it out to be, but I can still understand why some people don’t like this version of the character. The reason why Sonic doesn’t kill people isn’t because he’s a super optimistic superhero who believes that anyone can change. It’s because Sonic is a cool dude that simply doesn’t want to.