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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 มี.ค. 2022
- Updates in the description below. Turns out the plot isn't as broken as I thought.
Once again, huge thanks to Windii for her excellent translations and some of the footage used in this video. Her channel was sadly destroyed, along with all her translation videos. So here's a link to her Twitter. Please support her.
/ girlbossuran
UPDATE: I have re-examined some things and found the story has less issues than I originally thought. Eggman sets his 24 hour timer before Shadow makes him aware that the cannon will take time to charge with only 6 Emeralds. So likely he won't able to fire when the timer runs out without the 7th. This gives him proper motivation to want the 7th. Though it is still too vague. Shadow should have said something like, "The cannon won't be ready by your deadline without the last Emerald."
Thanks to James Belnap in the comments, I've reconsidered my thoughts on Knuckles. His inclusion in the story is still a little weaker than it could be. But him actually being detached from the main story works well for him considering he's a loner. Check my comment thread with James in the comments. He makes a lot of good points.
The other issues with the plot I stated still stand though.
I cannot believe I got this under 2 hours. I thought for sure it would go over that. But I did cut out quite a bit. Sorry if some of the narration editing is a bit rough. I chopped out and rearranged a lot.
Also, my apologies for the inconsistency of my voice. I recorded most of this in a single 4 hour recording session, so by the end of it I was getting pretty hoarse. And I struggle to speak consistently in general. That's something I gotta work on. And I need to say, "You know," less. Jeez. I'd suggest playing a drinking game with that, but you might die of alcohol poisoning.
To be honest, I'm a bit worried about this one. With SA2 being so beloved, I hope I haven't brought upon the community's wrath by getting a bunch of things wrong or criticizing things unfairly. I did my best.
My channel has finally started to get some real numbers. Thank you to everyone who's subscribed recently and has been watching my stuff. I've gotten a bunch of very flattering comments and I'm grateful. I hope you continue to enjoy my videos.
If you want to try the full story mod, Here's a link to a spreadsheet I put together compiling all of my Sonic recommendations.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
You can support me here if you want. ko-fi.com/pariah695 - เกม
One of the biggest drivers for this story was this thematic concept they were exploring of "good vs evil" which sounds a little cliché on paper but in practice it's a clash of ideals. Each of the hero characters had a flat arc espousing a specific virtue, and the Dark counterparts each represented a specific subversion of that ideal.
With Knuckles, the virtue he espouses is responsibility. He needs to guard the Master Emerald not just because it's his job or part of his heritage, but because it serves an important role in the balance of the world. Rouge is all about freedom and self interest, so she's unmoved by his plight. Their arcs end up mirroring each others throughout the whole story. Knuckles spends his entire arc dead set of fulfilling his responsibility, while Rouge does whatever she want whenever she wants.
In Knuckles 2nd and 3rd stages he's in areas he'd really rather not be, Pumpkin Hill creeps him out, Aquatic mine is dark and damp, collecting the shards from these areas is uncomfortable and difficult, but he does it anyways because it needs to be done. When he joins the rest of Team Hero it's because it what he needs to do, he leaves Team Hero it's what he needs to do, every action he takes in the story is driven entirely by duty and responsibility.
At Rouge's 2nd stage in the story she's already abandoned her main goal in favor of another endeavor that promised her jewels, collecting info on Project Shadow. I know a lot of people are going to respond with "well yeah, stopping Eggman and Shadow was more important, she WAS being responsible" except no, Rouge doesn't give a damn about that, that's why she lets them raid Prison Island, and also why she lets them destroy the moon, all she cares about is her own self interest. They promised her jewels if she collected info on them so that's what she did, and once she did that she immediately leaves to pursue her other interest instead of doing anything else to try and stop them, which ultimately lead to her cover being blown.
So with that in mind, the fact that the Master Emerald ends up being critical to saving the day in the last story is REALLY FUCKING significant. He spends the entire game firmly pushing the ideal that if you have a responsibility you have to follow through on it, even if it takes you to places no one else is willing to go, even if you end isolated from what the rest of the characters are doing, even if no one else is willing to validate your conviction (like honestly not even Sonic and Tails did a great job validating him in that department), you still have to do it. And then in the last story the fruits of his labors are realized, if he gave up searching for the shards the moment it became inconvenient for him the same way Rouge did they'd all be fucked.
At it's core, Knuckles's story in this game is an understated but firm arc that demonstrates why responsibility is such an important virtue to have, which is why it's so freaking frustrating that you keep insisting that Knuckles's character is pointless and that you wouldn't lose anything if he wasn't there. Knuckles contributes to the main theme of the game just as much as anyone else does.
Thematically, sure. You're totally right. But I was talking plot wise, Knuckles' story doesn't intertwine with the main story in a way where it is a necessary component for it to work.
@@Pariah6950 I don't agree with your logic though. Like yeah, they could have chosen a different way to stop the chaos emeralds, but they didn't, they chose Knuckles. Just because you can imagine a version of the story where he doesn't influence events, it doesn't mean he isn't influencing events in the version we got, and I doubt Sonic and co racing to the core so they can press the off button on the emerald machine would of had the same pay off. If the story would be worse off if he wasn't there, and if his arc has thematic synergy with the rest of the game, at what point does he stop being a necessary component?
@James Belnap The way they executed it, Knuckles does indeed matter. But only because they forced in an arbitrary thing for him to do. That's bad writing.
Compare him to Rouge. Trying to remove her from the story would require massive changes to so many things. Not so for Knuckles because he contributes almost nothing.
I'm not saying Knuckles should be removed. I'm saying they should have done a better job of weaving him into the main story so he actually does need to be there and does contribute something of value.
@@Pariah6950 I understand you aren't saying Knuckles should be removed, the point of contention here is that you think they failed to weave him into the main story where as from my perspective it felt like Knuckles being isolated for most of the game was an intentional narrative choice they made to support his character arc (and in turn, his character arc supports the greater themes of the game). Like, I don't think they were struggling to figure out how to make Knuckles important, I think they knew exactly how to make him important, and this was how they did it.
The other point of contention here seems to be that his role in the last story was arbitrary, but I don't agree with that either. No matter what angle you look at the plot point I think it works. From an in-universe perspective this solution calls on preexisting lore that is integral to Knuckles as a character and the series as a whole and makes intuitive sense for the problem they're dealing with. From a thematic perspective it's the culmination of his character arc. From a plot perspective this refocuses all the characters and gives them a tangible objective to reach for the final stretch of the game. From a mechanical perspective this a well executed example of Chekhov's Gun.
I get that writing Knuckles out of the story would be comparatively easier to writing out most of the other characters, but instead of asking "how easy would it be to write them out the story?" I think a much fairer question to ask here is "what would the story lose if the character wasn't in it?" If Knuckles wasn't here then Rouge's arc would be neutered, the lore of the chaos emeralds would be less interesting, the ideology his arc represented would vanish altogether, and the overall theme of the game would be weakened considerably. I don't think it's fair to say Knuckles isn't contributing anything of value here.
@@Jbelnap510 You know what? I see what you're saying. To a degree, you've convinced me. Knuckles has always been a loner type. So him going on an adventure separate from the others works well for him. Makes him feel more like the guardian of the Master Emerald instead of just, "Sonic's friend". The fact that he only joins up with them out of convenience is very appropriate for his character. And him becoming useful at the end does tie his story with the main one in a way that is both set up and works for the theme of his own story.
My issue was that it is more "his story" than a part of the main one. It's much more like Adventure 1 in that way. Knuckles has his own story with its own beginning and end, that just so happens to be occurring at the same time as the main story. All of the other characters are part of that one main story, so Knuckles feels very detached.
And generally if there are things that can be easily trimmed from a story, that means it's not necessary. And ideally every single thing that happens in a story should be pushing the main plot forward in some way. You can have side stories, but to make that work you have to tie it into the main story, where it does push it forward in a way where it couldn't work otherwise. And in that regard I still believe it could have been done better.
But overall, I'll actually agree. It does sort of work now that I think about it that way. I'll put a note in the description and heart this thread so people can see it. Good conversation. Made me appreciate the story of SA2 even more.
"G.U.N is such a f-ing ridiculous stupid acronym for a military."
No more ridiculous than S.H.I.E.L.D and S.W.O.R.D in the MCU.
At least G.U.N. has the extra of being a japanese pun; the word for army in japanese is 軍, which when transcribed to the latin alphabet it's spelled as "gun" (though actually pronounced more like "goon").
sorta like pokemon S.W.O.R.D, S.H.I.E.L.D, and G.U.N one could say
the holy trinity...
Unified Intelligence Task Force be like:
You hate it becuase it makes sense for the abbreviation it stands for bozo
"G.U.N being the government isn't gonna do something that evil." Yeah tell that to the probably millions in damages that the giant truck does while just trying to catch one hedgehog.
Or the censoring of their activities, definitely not a thing real governments do
And the added millions with the truck in generations lol
Aside from that, not like world governments are exactly the pillars of morality.
*TW: Animal Abuse*
Also the actual CIA did in fact mutilate a cat in an attempt to use it as a spying device (Operation Acoustic Kitty, search at your own risk it's fucked up) so using animals as a power source for death robots wouldn't be THAT far-fetched
yeah like... even if you dont buy into the "gun arrested sonic deliberately to cover up project shadow" theory, they did do that truck shit and are also arguably responsible for the entire plot by killing Maria. they are definitely an evil force in this story
"Shadow is kinda like Jesus" I never thought that I will heard something like that in my entire life
yea me neither
Shadow is moist critikal
Shadow Basically Actually Is Jesus Since They Both Were Born & Created Even Meant To Save & Protect Humanity Of Mankind By Sacrificing Their Own Lives In Similar Ways To Make A Lot Of Sense When You Really Even Think About It
@@emmanuelharris6445 to be honest all this shadow being Jesus stuff is really unsettling for me in many ways. Why was he cloned if he’s Jesus?????
@@brabbythegutman9183 Because Shadow Is Ultimate Life Form same thing that Jesus is Ultimate Human God that’s why their basically the same but just have different personalities
1:17:23
really love how in sonic x the master emerald doesn’t shrink and Knuckles just carries the fuckin thing around the ark for the rest of the finale 😭
Correction I wanna make. Shadow's actions actually ARE from his trauma blocking out Maria's actual wish. Its reinforced in all the guides and bios that the trauma was the motivation. Gerald didnt actually know about Maria's wish to even alter it.
What Gerald did was put the imperative to initiate the plan, which lead to Shadow twisting his trauma and desire to fulfill Maria's wish.
Absolutely loved watching this. As someone who far too often hears "criticism" of SA2, it is soooooo sooooo good to hear someone address the ACTUAL problems with the plot. This game gets a lot of praise for its story and the result is often people looking to knock it down a peg by making things that arent issues into issues, often to the actual ignorance of its actual issues.
It's something I always wanted to go over myself and I am grateful that you did.
One thing though I wanna also correct you on is the cannon. The cannon wasnt gonna destroy the entire planet, just do damage to the surface. This is why Gerald needed the ARK crash plan.
Also, I took it as Rouge genuinely just being selfish and not caring about the island blowing up. It wasnt her job, she just wants jewels.
Lastly, I disagree about the idea that SA2 ignores a lot of the themes of the classics. Or at least the idea that you can really pin it on SA2. SA2 explores the concept of nature vs artificiality which, in particular the concept of AI was around since Mecha Sonic in Sonic 3, is imo a perfectly valid take on the whole nature vs technology thing. SA2 very much is placed in the "technology and machines" design space and story telling of the Sonic series at itself has a lot of messaging on science and it going to far, weapons being dangerous, etc which to me seems like a natural progression of the very Miyazaki-esque concepts the classics were dabbling with.
Loved your stuff man. Awesome watch!
If these thing are the case, it's still an issues because the game does a bad job of conveying these ideas properly. But true that the Sonic vs Shadow conflict itself can be a metaphor for nature vs technology. The issue is that it gets so buried under all the other themes going on, so I didn't even really realize it.
Glad you enjoyed the video. I look forward to talking about the story of Shadow and how it relates to this game.
@@Pariah6950 so far, independant of whether I have agreed with you on everything, I have enjoyed you actually examining these themes and concepts, and so I hope you catch on to what the game was trying to say, which is something the fandom seemingly intentionally blocks out out of cognitive dissonance seemingly. I greatly look forward to it.
In general, the themes of environmentalism specifically in regards to the nature vs technology thing is something I feel is often overemphasized by people when talking about the themes of the classics. Huge themes on those games is also dreams and pursuit of whats in ones heart independant of outside influences as well as self discovery, and Sonic acting as the catalyst for that.
Its stuff you can see in all of Naka and Ohshima's works in how it pertains to the nature of the human soul and it not being inherently corrupt but instead tainted by negative outside stimulae bu compromising on true wishes.
And of course you get into the themes of living life to the fullest in the time you have and all that as well. These are things the series will focus on more as it goes on and I personally dont see it as necessarily a flaw, as outside of say, SatAM, it was always really surface level, with the focus more specifically being on the nature and mysticism and technology stuff and how they arent mutually exclusive.
@ChaddyFantome All of them just can't figure out that Sonic isn't supposed to be James Cameron's Avatar where (post-industrial) technology and society by themselves are a corruption/poison on creation that needs to be burned but rather that they should be used to make new possibilities (see also all the times Sonic and Eggman join forces to stop other threats).
I like that perspective, while Sonic is the embodiment of freedom and independence, Shadow is a prisoner of an abstracted past, he is not fully himself until he manages to get out of that.
@@harryenchiladas8826 but the plotline with the destroyed moon went nowhere. So here's how I'd fix that issue:
In my version of Sonic Adventure 2, after Gerald snapped into madness over Maria's passing, he now wanted to avenge her by programming the ARK to ram into Earth with the Biolizard pulling the ARK to Earth as a last ditch plan. But he knew the ARK wasn't big enough to fully destroy Earth. So he reprogrammed the Eclipse Cannon to send the reserve energy from the Chaos Emeralds to chain The Moon & Allow the ARK to pull the it down to Earth once all 7 Chaos Emeralds are inserted into The Eclipse Cannon.
And once Eggman inserted the Chaos Emeralds into The Eclipse Cannon, the ARK sends out a chain to the hole Eggman created when he shot The Moon in a previous cutscene & starts pulling it towards Earth.
And here's how Gerald's Speech plays out:
"This is a Death Sentence for the entire human race! If my calculations are correct: The Space Colony ARK will tear The Moon out of it's orbit & then impact the Earth in 27 minutes & 53 seconds!
All of you will be Destroyed! Along with your beloved planet Earth!
I plan to give you a taste of my vengeance once all the 7 Chaos Emeralds are collected! Once I activate this program, it can't be disabled! All of you ungrateful Monsters who took everything away from me will feel my loss & despair!"
Once the Biolizard fuses with the ARK, he also controls the Moon through the ARK & once Sonic & Shadow defeat the Biolizard, they use Chaos Control to warp the ARK & Moon back into their places (with Shadow removing his inhibitor rings to do it.) When the ARK teleports back into its old place, the Moon restores itself to it's pre-blown up state with a new Star shaped symbol in where the hole from the Eclipse Cannon's shot was.
Your bafflement at why Gerald didn't simply program the Eclipse Cannon to fire at the Earth should the Chaos Emeralds ever be reinserted got me curious as to what would actually be more destructive: the cannon, or the entire ARK smashing straight into the planet. So I got to number crunching.
The ARK, based on the information in Sonic X, is stated to be 15 km in diameter. This is roughly the same size as the city of Paris, so this is plausible, considering how much time the various characters spend running all over it and the combined distance they cover in Sonic Adventure 2 and Shadow the Hedgehog. This also puts it in the ballpark of the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs. Given what we see of its structure, I assumed a density roughly equivalent to ice, as this would allow it to float on water as does a Nimitz class aircraft carrier, which is basically the closest real-life analogue we have to a ship of this size.
The next parameter to assess is the velocity of the ARK as it re-enters Earth's atmosphere. US space shuttles, on re-entry, have a velocity of 7 km/s. Of course, they're not TRYING to barrel into the planet, so I feel like doubling this to 15 km/s is fair. For reference, the KT asteroid was going about 30 km/s, but that had a hell of a longer wind-up than however far away the ARK is orbiting from Earth.
Crunching these numbers, and assuming an impact angle of 80 degrees and landfall, the ARK would hit the earth with an energy of 1.99 x 10^23 Joules. We have to divide this in half, though, considering that, though the ARK has a diameter of 15 km, it isn't a sphere, but rather a hemisphere. So around 1 x 10^23 J. This would definitely be considered an apocalyptic event. It would cause an earthquake with a Richter scale magnitude of 9.7 - greater than any earthquake in recorded history. Glass windows across the world would shatter, and any cities within 1000 km of the impact site would be demolished. When the dust settled, the impact crater would measure 55 km, or about 35 miles (for reference, the Chicxulub crater measures 180 km (or 110 mi). It wouldn't be as bad as the Cretaceous extinction, but it would be reminiscent.
Now, let's compare this to the blast from the Eclipse Cannon seen in the cutscene around the middle of the game. It looks like the blast displaces roughly 40% of the moon's mass. The moon has a mass of 7.35x10^22 kg. Using the Planetary Parameter Calculator on stardestroyer.net, the minimum energy needed to destroy the moon is 1.26x10^29 J. Forty percent of that energy is around 5x10^28 J. So... fifty THOUSAND times greater than the impact force from the ARK itself. So, yeah, if any sense is to be made out of this, Gerald's revenge plan of programming the ARK to crash into the Earth was devised as a way to destroy, like, a continent, and decimate human society but not, y'know, wipe out all life on Earth. It would also indicate that the Black Arms had the power on the cannon cranked way the fuck down when they used it to wipe out Central City in Shadow the Hedgehog (though, admittedly, by that point, they only have five Chaos Emeralds).
Love this. I always wished Kyle Hill would have done a video on the Eclipse Cannon. Lots of fun calculations to do.
There's of course the recoil the ARK should experience when firing and what would actually happen if the moon was shot with a laser that powerful.
We could also use this to calculate the power of an individual Chaos Emerald. And also remember, when destroying the moon the cannon only has 6 Emeralds. So a 7th would make it even stronger. We could guess it would just be a little bit more powerful, but considering we know 7 Emeralds are capable of a lot more than 6, it's possible their energy combines exponentially.
And to be fair, Eggman does mention that the core of the ARK is set to explode. So it's possible extra damage would be dealt by the Chaos Emeralds exploding.
Fun stuff. Thank you so much for such an awesome comment.
I like when stuff like this happens, its so cool seeing people try and find out what would happen, great comment, really great comment
Hey there! I'm happy that my SA2 Full Story Mod is being used! Thanks so much! I'm glad you enjoyed it!
It's really well done. Thanks for making it.
I feel like the Chaos Control moment with Sonic isn’t actually all that far fetched, seeing as Sonic HAS used the Chaos Emeralds multiple times, just not specifically to teleport. He’s channeled Chaos Emeralds before to do other things before, so I wouldn’t say it’s unfeasible.
A line from Shadow that was cut I think went like ''Sonic, I think the ultimate lifeform might be..'' alluding that Sonic is what Shadow got created from to begin with and thus have that type of ability with the Chaos Emeralds.
@@islandboy9381
Oh that isn't a cut line its just buried 5 or so minutes into the Final Hazard Boss fight.
Same with a lot of references to Shadow quickly burning throw his super forms energy. far quicker than Sonic which is the reason Shadow "dies" while Sonic lives.
@@rynobehnke8289 Gerald doing a little bit of trolling with the recessive genes on Shadow
@@islandboy9381
Shadow: Sonic! You have all the dominant genes a hedgehog can have! Meanwhile, Gerald made my genes recessive!
Sonic: What?
Also people seem to forget there's a first time for everything. Like, what about when Sonic first transformed into Super Sonic, should he have not been able to do that because he hasn't done it before? Just makes no sense
If knuckles had the master emerald restored from the beginning, he could just used it to neutralize the chaos emeralds, putting a stop to eggman's plan. So yeah, knuckles' story WAS necessary.
But he didn't have the master emerald restored so knuckles' story is still not necessary.
@@ldub5562 literally just understand that he let sonic into space by finding key.
First off, he only found out about Eggman's plan from the other characters, if Rouge hadn't tried to steal the master emerald then he would have been chilling on Angle Island, unaware of what's going on.
Secondly, even if he saw that giant laser in the sky, how would he know that that was because of the chaos emeralds? He could just as easily assume that Dr Eggman made a death egg 3, he didn't need the chaos emeralds to build the first one in Sonic 2.
It really wasn't; you could remove Knuckles from the plot and nothing would change. The Master Emerald supposedly nullifying the Chaos Emeralds? Immediately rendered moot. If that's the extent of Knuckles' contributions to the main storyline, that's pretty damn pointless.
@@ldub5562 just shut up
I think the Biolizard looks the way he does because it's modeled after Perfect Chaos. So when creating the ultimate life form they went with two routes, the big dragon thingy and the hedgehog thing both from the echidna tribe's prophecies. But this is just off the top of my head tbh, could be remembering things wrong.
That's fanon sadly
@@TechBlade9000 No some of the machines in final rush are chaos heads, which definitely is alluding to the creation if the biolizard.
@@mcmax1123 I......fair enough
@@TechBlade9000 It hasn't been explicitly said but there is enough in game evidence to conclude it's true. For one, Canon's Core has a giant recreation of the Master Emerald Shrine at the center, which wouldn't really make a lot of sense unless Gerald had been to the Shrine himself. This would also line up with the stated above Artificial Chaos that are plentiful aboard the ark. Finally and while this does come after SA2, Sonic Battle's entire plot revolves around Gerald finding ancient Echidna artifacts which all but confirms he was studying their civilization for Project Shadow.
Yeah, Shadow is supposed to be similar to Super Sonic, and the Biolizard is supposed to be similar to Perfect Chaos. Since Gerald was researching the Echidna Tribe, he got to see both murals and studied how the Chaos Emeralds work. At first he wished to create a god-like being, capable of eternal life, as an attempt to save Maria. He used Perfect Chaos as the inspiration for the Biolizard, which did not work correctly due to the Negative Energy of the Chaos Emeralds. Just like Perfect Chaos does, the Biolizard becomes corrupt and unstable, lashing out on the scientists and becoming animalistic in nature. Super Sonic uses the Positive Energy of the Chaos Emeralds, and is also seen as a god-like being, so Gerald then tried using Super Sonic as his new inspiration, creating Shadow. Shadow turns out to be pure and heroic just like Super Sonic, since he was created with the Positive Energy of the Chaos Emeralds. The Positive and Negative Energy is explained by Tikal in SA1 when Sonic transforms using the Emeralds.
There's an "interesting" detail about Gerald that I don't really see anyone talk about, and that's how Gerald, at least in the English translation, calls Shadow an "it" in one of the cutscenes. As if he doesn't think of Shadow as anything more than just his creation, where as Maria treats him more like a family member. I don't know if that's what they were going for but I thought it was interesting.
You know? Despite everything, I think these stories from the early 3D era of Sonic have some real heart put into them. Sure they are a bit cheesy, the cutscenes are clunky and badly animated, and the writing is a bit questionable, but it feels like they come from a genuine place. They feel like Japanese writers of the 90s trying to experiment with storytelling to make Sonic games deep and interesting. Even if the result is mixed and the execution could be better, you can't help but appreciate them in the end for what they are: an attempt to advance the Sonic franchise
This is why I think people genuinely hate the stories from Modern Sonic, like Forces and Lost World. They are so corporate and lifeless, trying too hard to appeal to every demographic, that there is nothing you can get a hold of. It's not bad writing really trying to be good like mid-2000s Sonic: it's just lazy bad writing that plays it safe without spice.
Imagine if they actually nail the "I choose to be Shadow" details in Sonic 3 movie
Binged all your Sonic videos in anticipation for this, am not dissapointed. This is the most meticulous analysis with the least amount of bias I've seen of this game on youtube.
Though, you dunking on Shiro Maekawa was a bit harsh. He was working on a pretty rushed timeline with game design changes every new second completely messing with the flow of the story (an example being the drastic redesign of Shadow completely obliterating any chance the story had of making sense). If he was given time to iron out the flaws, he would've delivered a genuinely fantastic shounen story. He has proven himself to be a talented writer judging by his work on Shadow and it's a shame he didn't get the true opportunity he deserved.
All in all, fantastic video that made me love SA2 even more. I'm guessing the next video will be about Sonic Heroes so I'm thrilled for that.
I was thinking I may have been a bit too harsh on Maekawa. It was kind of a bit in response to how much people praise him when he definitely can get pretty careless with his writing. He did write 06 after all, which was also troubled of course so I'll give that some slack. But in wanting to show his flaws, I did get too aggressive. Sorry about that. I'll probably say something about it in the next story video.
Though to be fair, he has said that the only thing he'd change about SA2's story if he could would be to put all the cut things back into it. And I would say it needs more than that. So that tells me he doesn't see a lot of the problems that are there. That's why the word I use is sloppy. He had some great ideas and did a lot of things quite well, but there's a lot of issues too that could easily be fixed.
Glad you liked it anyway. Heroes is definitely coming. Believe it or not, I have quite a bit to say about that game's story too.
@@Pariah6950 it's kinda funny because most ppl hate 06 because of the messy story and gameplay while praise this game like it's a masterpiece but all in fair judgement I can't blame them for that since I'm a fan of the older 3d Sonic games that anything
@@Pariah6950 Kinda funny that you mention how Maekawa wrote sonic 06, which is not only partily wrong, but he actually wrote Shadow's story in that game. Said story is one of the universally agreed upon good parts of Sonic 06.
That aside, I do get being a bit harsh about Maekawa when a lot of people do love his stuff and sing his praises to the high heavens. (Me included. Lol.) I honestly feel the same thing about Ian Flynn. While you did get a bit too harsh, it's fair to think about that in regard to Maekawa since he deserves fair criticism like every other writer, no matter how beloved his works.
@@Drax69420 He seems credited in the Sonic scenario too, although with another female writer as well though so could have only been a co-writer, any source on where it was said he only worked on the Shadow scenario?
I'd argue this is just proof that a story doesn't have to be perfect to be great tbh
_(This is backstory listed in Sonic Adventure 2 Perfect Guide - taking the form of a report submitted by Rouge the Bat to her superiors. Translation by Windii)._
During my latest undercover investigation, I have obtained highly classified data notes of the then federal government president through GUN's security hole that seem to be related to Project Shadow. It is a top secret research request addressed and sent to Gerald from the president of its time, 13 presidents ago. The content of the letter is concisely stated as follows:
"Begin research on immortality, humanity's ultimate, eternal dream."
Gerald seemed to have stubbornly rejected this request at first, for it exceeded man's limits. However, the one who gave him an excuse to realize this plan that was supposed to end as it was an influential person's nonsense, was (ironically) his beloved granddaughter Maria Robotnik. Maria had contracted a difficult-to-cure illness; "NIDS: Neuro Immunodeficiency Syndrome," and while treatment continued at the ARK's medical research facility, she was not expected to recover. The irritated Gerald seemed to think that he would overcome this incurable disease by studying immortal life. The research has been documented as being named "Project Shadow" from the irony of creating a shadow (which cannot exist in this world,) and was advancing internally at the ARK behind the scenes in absolute secrecy.
At first, everyone thought that this far-fetched and reckless plan was undoubtedly a fabrication that couldn't have been thought up by Prof. Gerald's ingenious intellect. The Chaos Drives were based on research results of the Chaos Emeralds, and the experimental attempt to apply that infinite energy to life functions was successful. Shortly thereafter, the project lead to completion of a single prototype. Focusing on its restorative ability, the Ultimate Lifeform's prototype, which was modeled after a lizard, showed signs of phenomenal growth, as well as self-recovery and self-replication. The researchers were overjoyed.
However, that joy was brief, as the prototype's abilities eventually far exceeded the researchers' expectations, to the point where it was difficult to control. Voices of doubt begin to rise internally from the researchers, questioning the duration, significance and safety of the research. It is likely that the staff who witnessed the prototype going out of control leaked information of the project to GUN first, but the truth is uncertain. However, the upper branches of GUN that were looking upon the research institution's unique qualities as hostile arrived at the decision to close the ARK itself, taking advantage of this opportunity; an informal operation, "ARK Sealing & Destruction."
A biological hazard suddenly occurred at the ARK research facility, and all colony residents were to be rescued and the colony sealed from the disaster. This was the ostensible purpose of this operation. Of course, the real goal was none other than to shut down the ARK, erase Project Shadow, and detain Prof. Gerald as the person responsible for the disaster. The operation was carried out on an unprecedented scale, the likes of which had not been seen since the founding of GUN. In only seven days since the start of the operation, all inhabitants of the ARK were transferred to the surface. Its facilities were frozen by GUN and all of Project Shadow's staff, with the exception of Gerald, were declared victims of this disaster. The operation was completed by sealing the Ultimate Lifeform's prototype at the deepest part of the colony.
However, there was just one miscalculation in this operation. At the time action was taken, Prof. Gerald seemed to have already nearly completed the Ultimate Lifeform, Shadow, using a different model. When GUN special forces entered the laboratory, the fleeing Gerald entrusted Shadow to his granddaughter Maria, and made sure that one escape capsule was ejected towards the surface. (The whereabouts of said capsule remain unknown.)
In the end, Gerald was apparently captured by special forces afterwards and imprisoned at Prison Island. Now, without Shadow the Hedgehog, there is no longer a way to confirm anywhere if the Shadow that was sealed at Prison Island was a replica created by Gerald, or the original Shadow that was ejected towards the surface and recovered...
~Partial excerpt from Rouge's final investigation report on Project Shadow~
Source: SonicRetro Community
Hmm interesting report of Project Shadow. Also the reason why G.U.N raided the Ark was bc of Black Doom's presence there and the involvement with Shadows creation.
@@AFeralTrout420I'm pretty sure that report was written before SEGA decided to make Space Satan a part of what they consider "everything".
"The original Shadow" is obviosly Sonic the hedgehog
Was that "biological hazard" she mentioned the one shown in Lost Impact?
I thought it was pretty clear that he was using the eclipse cannon for deterrence. He has a loaded gun pointed at the world, who isnt going to listen to his demands?
As for the arc crashing into the earth instead of just firing the laser. Gerald was definitely anticipating shadow to fulfill his plan and I think it would just be simpler for shadow to crash the arc into the planet then having shadow go through the trouble of fixing it. I mean shadow could be a super genius who can fix and build things as well as eggman and tails, but it's probably for the best that he cant.
Shadow’s character switching with “no agency” is summed up in the rouge scene. “If all my memories are fake they’re still all I have. All I want to do is fulfil Maria’s wish.”… they are ALL he has
Man I love this guy lol. The way he told this story was so interesting especially with this mod, and how he added in parts where they make sense and extends the story to points where I've never thought of. Incredible man be safe everyone and have fun :). SA2 What a creation man.❤ 😊
Shadow being able to use chaos powers without a Chaos Emerald isn't really a continuity error at this point, because in later games, the same things would be established.
I think that Shadow could always use his chaos powers, but a Chaos Emerald of course increases that power even more.
The later games expand on what he can do but it's not stated in SA2 that he can do it without one. Every time Shadow Chaos Controls in SA2, he is touching or is near an emerald.
With the ARK crashing into Earth Instead of using the laser, maybe he wanted for everyone to die with his plan, not only Earth but also people on ARK. Just my simple head-canon. Also after watching your videos, Also great video
Yeah this. I thought that was a pretty obvious and sensible headcanon
I had always thought that the eclipse canon just couldn't actually destroy the planet in one go. It was said to be capable of destroying an entire planet, but no one said "in a single shot". So either the Ark is programmed to take aim and fire at every available opportunity until it eventually blasts earth away, or Ark Crashes and explodes much more violently and immediately.
Eggman probably only wants all the chaos emeralds because of his “childish behavior”,
for example, a child might want all of a candy bar even though they’re perfectly fine with half a candy bar
A chaos emerald
This is too easy
This is like taking candy from a baby
Which is fine by me
-Shadow the Hedgehog 2005
eggman: sure, all of the emeralds i currently have can blow a good chunk off of the moon, but could you IMAGINE how much more powerful this laser would be if i had all 7? thats an opportunity i simply cant pass up!
He's also shown to be vain and have a thing for showmanship so his victory would have to be absolute. Wouldn't be as cool or theatric if he nuked the Earth with just six of the seven emeralds.
@@InternetFanatic
The hero path
Didn't Shadow specifically say something along the lines of "at this rate the canon will take too long to charge up, if you want it to fire again we'll need all 7 chaos emeralds" ?
Tbh I think shadow's redesign was made purely in need of creating a recognozable silluete. If u give shadow downward spikes it doesnt differ much from the concept art. But if u make them longer as in the art I imagine a lot of clipping animations would have happened. So they slapped super sonic spikes on him
You have my respect by being one of the people who ACTUALLY UNDERSTANDS THE "Shadow being mistaken for Sonic" thing rather than just going on about it being dumb...
Two other things though- yeah the story was written first, but there are other excuses you can make for it as well in universe. Like, people know that Sonic has a super form in universe from Sonic Adventure 1. So it could be entirely reasoned that Shadow is just some other form of Sonic. The designer of Sonic himself thought that's what Shadow was when he first saw the design!
A lot of it is just from fanon being unable to separate canon from Western takes or their own fanfiction.
In the games, the talking animals are concentrated in islands and do not live in the mainlands/continents. Talking animals aren't an alien presence like in the Paramount films or in an endless fantasy racism war like in Archie but there's no real evidence that it's the case that humans by large know well that superpowers like Sonic's aren't exclusive to him. Taking Amy as the benchmark as what a "civilian" furry is capable of, she's far more clunkly and slow in Adventure than Sonic/Tails/Knuckles who all have superpowers or more impressive backgrounds and she lived in Station Square as a citizen with her having friends there. That means that by large humans in the canon just don't know the talking animals well when it comes to their abilities.
this is interesting because only Sonic, Shadow, Silver and Knuckles have real superpowers, and the rest of the friends are too ordinary. This is easily explained by the fact that Sonic is a ultimate life form, Shadow is his copy, Silver is a descendant of one of two or both from the children of Sonic and Shadow separately and Knuckles from the tribe of echidnas who for centuries have been fueled by the power of the master emerald
@@ediakin4993 Ok but Tails is a two tailed fox that can fly like a helicopter, Cream can fly with her ears, Blaze has fire powers and Amy presumably has super strength and/or a magic hammer she can summon from anywhere.
I think Sonic/Shadow/Silver/Knuckles have a special connection with the emeralds, but his friends are definitely not ordinary!
Also Silver is canonically not a decedent of Shadow. In the future Silver is from, Shadow was imprisoned before he ever had a family.
7:34 I think Sonic only called Cuckles "the world's greatest treasure hunter" as a little joke/prod, because Cux needed to collect the Master Emerald shards again, presumably not long after Adventure 1. Also, I don't find it hard to believe that he'd also be searching Angel Island for artefacts of the Echidnas.
29:25 I’ve always wished they would’ve made a Shadow Stage 8: Dangerous Basement or Stealth Island where you work your way around the island tagging marked locations with bombs,
Shadow needs an extra level, then Security Hall and White Jungle come next,
I'm really glad someone took the time to make this video regarding the backstory of Project Shadow and it's relation to both Sonic Adventure and Sonic 3 & Knuckles. A lot of it was lost in strategy guides and small pieces so to just hear all of that explained concisely along with their flaws and strengths for story telling is really nice. It also helps to better show what kind of character Shadow really is. It's a very mature story for its time and I'm happy I grew up with this game. I'm thankful that you made this video. Good stuff.
Awesome video!
There is all that meme regarding "99 hours long Sonic in-depth video lmao" but I still prefer that over most shorter but lack-luster information that most types of videos on TH-cam are like.
So here we go again with another gigantic comment.
I pretty much disagree with the campaigns being split as a bad thing, because the problem you mentioned basically happen to any game and I don't think the basic narrative is confusing to understand, in the Hero side you pretty much know that they are after Eggman, goes to space, comes with a plan to stop and do that in the end, the Dark side is pretty much the same thing, Eggman discovers a new weapon for him to use, they are gathering the Chaos Emerald and at the end they get all of them.
Any kind of narrative that is told through different campaigns in the same timeline will inevitably leave parts of it with no explanation, the thing is that you play the other side and discover things like "Oh so that's how Eggman knew about the fake emerald" or how the villains knew the Heroes where coming to his base, because Shadow/Rouge were tracking them, and even the scene where Eggman captures Sonic doesn't have the same impact when you already know Eggman knows about the fake emerald. There is also the introduction, the game clearly wanted players to start with Sonic's epic introduction which will lead to the mysteries surrounding the situation.
I don't think you meant to have a singular story from a gameplay perspective, but if it is, then this also poses a big problem to boss fights and stages, if a player play with Full Story they'll think that the game is just padding by reutilizing the same boss for Sonic/Shadow, or Egg Golem as Sonic/Eggman, which is not a problem when playing separately, both Shadow and Sonic fighting the same boss to show their similarities makes more sense when the story is split into two campaigns then when it's single, there is also Tails' appearance that is way to late in the story if played like this, and even worse from a gameplay perspective considering by that time you already played 4 Eggman levels.
I love to play the game with the Full Story mod, but I don't think the narrative of the split campaigns is really that bad, you just have to connect the elements together like any story split like this. While obviously a game's overhaul story is still one, I think it works perfectly fine when split in two campaigns.
The ideal way to fix that if the game had a Cutscene Viewer that shows the timeline and correct sequence of events.
But anyway, I still think it's a fun experience to play Full Story *after* having already played the game once the intended way, and it's perfectly fine for the sake of this video.
I'm really glad you weren't one of those who complain about Shadow/Sonic not being similar at all and such, but I just want to add another point here. Since GUN completely sealed Project Shadow for 50 years, no one really knows what it is, so when they see Shadow, people don't see him as another person, they see him as Sonic, "Sonic has become evil and changed his appearance", it's not like they don't see anything different at all, people just think Shadow is Sonic by that time in the story, which is why Amy does her mistake, not because she is colorblind, but because Shadow was shown to be Sonic and that's probably what Amy thought until she hugs him and notices it's actually not the Sonic she knows, it makes even more sense when you consider that they never mistake Shadow with Sonic again. It's pretty much as when someone change clothes, one day you're wearing a blue shirt and another day you change your hairstyle and use a black shirt, people won't suddenly come up with the conclusion that you're another person, they'll still identify you because they can still see the same similarities despite on surface being very different.
About Tails bringing the real Chaos Emerald to the ARK, I think it makes sense, they don't know how Eggman got the Chaos Emeralds, so Tails just brought with him so he can guard them safely and keep an eye on any threats, there is no assurance that Eggman wouldn't find the Emerald hidden on Earth without someone watching it.
And just like you said, I think it most benefits the plot rather than causing problems.
About Eggman wanting to blow up the Earth, I always understood as much more of a threat to the world to show how superior he is and such, which is also why I think he chose to join the Heroes at the Last Episode, he doesn't want someone else to control him, he wants to rule all by himself, a similar situation happened in SA1, although he tried to destroy the city with a missile, Perfect Chaos basically this for him, but he wasn't satisfied for this reason.
If Eggman haven't said "Why doesn't the cannon fire?!" and didn't showed the cannon being activated in Hero side's ending, it would have fixed that issue. And regarding Eggman wanting the 7th Chaos Emerald, I think it could be explained by just saying that he wants to posses them all so no one can try to go against him and he wants to have total control of everything, it's something that fits his character.
Sonic X has so many unused dialogue and all the time characters literally say the exact same lines from the games that I genuinely believe writers took the original script Maekawa wrote and threw into the anime, which includes lines that had unused audio and also diferences in scenes setups that was supposed to be for the game. For example, there is unused text showing that in Shadow and Sonic first encounter it was supposed to also be told the same sequence of lines they say on Prison Island ("Faker? Aren't you supposed to be the fake...."), and in Sonic X it's exactly like that, it's basically a Director's Cut version of watching the Adventure stories, I find frustrating that those arcs where so rushed and quick, they could have explained a lot about Shadow and Maria's past that was only told through external sources.
I liked that your criticism towards most of the story wasn't some superficial/already explained thing that most people love to point out (you know, the Sonic/Shadow not similar, Gerald uploading his death sentece, Shadow dying and not Sonic...), I was genuenly surprised with most plotholes you pointed out that I've never really noticed and I agree with most of them with the exception of the ones I pointed here.
That's a really great video! It's clear it took a very long time to produce! I'm already visioning the future where this video will have 100k views and such!
I really didn't want to turn into another channel making such ridiculously long Sonic videos. But god damnit, I just have too much to say. lol
I cut out a whole giant section of me going into detail about why I think the story works better as one. There are so many reasons, I couldn't cover them all. It was just too long. Mainly it comes down to how the story directed. For example on the Hero story, Amy just randomly appears in an awkward far shot during Tails' first cutscene. She's just part of the story now, I guess. But in the Dark story, she has a proper character introduction, grabbing Shadow and making a whole big commotion. And then when she tells Sonic about Shadow on the island, we as the audience don't know how she knows that. We're just told that information. And that's not how you tell a story. But in the Dark story, we see her encounter the bad guys, thus we know that firsthand. We don't just get told that some character that suddenly is in the story has that information for reasons unknown. The moon destruction itself comes out of absolutely nowhere on the Hero story, and is quite awkward in my opinion. There's tons of issues like this. Setups in one story are sometimes payed off in another. That's a major problem.
We can come up with explanations for a number of the plot holes I mentioned. But the fact that we have to explain them ourselves is the issue. That's supposed to be the writer's job.
Watching Sonic X's adaptation was very interesting. Makes me wish we could get an SA2 anime movie that could actually fully tell the story properly, and with a decent budget.
Glad you enjoyed.
@@Pariah6950 also, i would really like to point out the inhibitor rings thing(if its considered canon while i think its bc it was mentioned both in sonic X and sonic 06).
When shadow uses them he continues to lose his life due to his body bieng made of chaos energy of somehow(just like the biolizard but more stable) so he died at the end due to the inhibitors not that he is imperfect(wich could also lead to that he is also the real shadow bc if he was made in a rush on prison island he wouldn't have been able to fight sonic other than handling a super form) and that keeps me wondering if that's why that thing about the capsule never found was removed from both that game and sonic X to tell that the shadow we know is the real one
Also i would like to say that its still possible that this shadow is fake because in other games he still has nothing to remember despite already going through the events(like heroes and shadow the hedgehog) but that also doesn't work for sonic 06's shadow as he obviously remembers and knows what happened in the past and the people he met( like sonic/eggman and others from sa2)
Still I'm not quite sure due to lack of research
Still tho a really great video, i appreciate and understand all what you said in the video, also i don't mind the long videos, i actually enjoy them a lot so don't be annoyed by it
@@sh21dow Sonic X actually does add the escape pod being lost back into the story. Rouge tells Shadow about it when confronting him about Project Shadow.
@@Pariah6950 oh, well you had me in that one so for that I'm looking for your shadow the hedgehog and sonic heroes for further explaining if there was any
Btw im binge watching all your vids right now and i really love your channel and how in-depth you go with these things and i think your wayy to underrated
Keep up the good work.
@@sh21dow I'm looking forward to doing Shadow's story. I have quite a bit to say about it. Thanks.
I may be wrong, but I think the ark crashing thing makes sense
I think Gerald's plan was to purposefully kill whoever was on the arc
Like the only people who would probably go through the trouble of collecting all the emeralds would either be a) a human, who he wants to kill, b) gun, who he definitely wants to kill, or c) shadow, who. I can't think of a reason why gerald would want him to die, but for 2/3 of those at least, it makes sense that he'd want whoever was on the arc to die right alongside the rest of the planet
And I mean he is clearly completely insane so who knows, maybe killing shadow also is somehow justified in his head
And also, I know Shadow the Hedgehog wasn't even concieved at this point, but just as retroactive fan theory, it would make sense if he'd want shadow dead in order to stop black doom from using him, so, at least with that future hindsight, using the ark itself to destroy the earth does sort of make sense
That was a SUPER small detail to zero in on I'm sorry, that was just the only bit of criticism I disagreed with
But other than that, 10/10 video, I absolutely love this series so far
I mean if you consider Shadow The Hedgehog plot and his insanity
He could easily also put LOTS of blame into Shadow
@@leokokiri well no, it puts the blame of Gerald
It's not Shadow's fault he was born
I can't speak for other fans, but Sonic Adventure 2 was my true introduction to Sonic the Hedgehog. I've played the classic sonic games (Pre Adventure), but it does absolutely nothing for me, I guess after playing SA2, i consider it the Benchmark for how future sonic games should be . I love the story, despite its inconsistencies, I love the gameplay, the character interactions, and the sheer epicness of it. I LOVE Shadow's character arc, in the years since I played the game, I see him as a introverted but fiercely determined hero who just wants to honor his late friend's wishes, not the edge lord that some fans want to make him out to be.
Video games, IMO ,is an art form, and art is a subjective thing, SA2 was a very ambitious project, and as mentioned in the video, it changed sonic forever, for bad or worse.
Nowadays, I've fallen off the franchise a bit, though I currently read the idw comics and the live-action sonic movies, both of which capture the same feelings I get from my initial experience with Sonic Adventure 2, sonic Unleashed too.
The game will always have a special place in my heart, and I've only grown to appreciate it as I got older
Not very inciting as a comment, but this is a really well made video. In general all of the videos I've watched from you thus far are pretty great.
Good quality and pacing and still bringing up interesting points I never thought of. With the second movie done, I really wanted a refresher, and this was a great video for that.
You've definitely earned a subscriber, for whatever that may mean to you.
It means a lot. Thank you. Glad you like my videos.
I’ve been binge-watching your content for the past few days and I just wanna say that it’s really incredible. Even though I don’t always agree with your points, you go so in-depth on every game and describe them in great detail. I’m disappointed that your videos were only just recommended to me by the TH-cam algorithm. You aren’t getting nearly enough attention for the amount of effort that is clearly being put in them. Keep up the great work, man!
If we ever have a remake of this game, I'd like for them to adjust some things about Gerald basing his creations on echidna lore.
If Gerald had gone to Angel Island, then the master emerald would have been taken, and gun could have sized control of the island themselves. Gerald could have even spoken with Knuckles' ancestors about chaos and the prophecy of sonic and whatnot. Things would have been very different this way.
I feel that Gerald going to Angel Island is a very cool theory, but it leads to many implications that would alter the events of sonic 3 a lot.
I'd like for them to further flash this out, but make it so that everything Gerald discovers about the echidnas is stuff he found in the Mystic ruins. He should find ancient texts and images of super sonic, Eggman, chaos and the emerald altar. These will be what he uses to design his creations. This way, Angel Island remains lost and untouched until sonic 3 occurs.
(I'd also like to learn about how the chaos emeralds got from the possession of gun 50 years ago, to south island in Sonic 1.)
It's possible that there could have been other depictions of Super Sonic than just the one on Angel Island. I assume his research was done mainly in the Mystic Ruins, considering Angel Island was mostly a legend prior to Sonic 3.
Never thought about the fact that Gerald must have had at least a few Chaos Emeralds 50 years ago. Good point. That definitely could use an explanation.
You run into the problem of over explaining when that happens however. One of the points in this video is that the plot goes too fast, while I agree with that in theory in execution there's a lot feeling a faster story conveys.
If they explain all the stuff you're talking about with Gerald where exactly is that going to happen? A clunky Shadow flashback? Rouge having a full 10 minutes on the computer looking all this up? GUN telling Rouge in another clunky flashback? The best part about the Last story is how little you know and how quickly it's all coming at you.
The best way to do this would be environmental storytelling, maybe have a mission of Rouge getting into ARK and we see the chunks of ruins with descriptions of Chaos and Super Sonic, but actually describing everything Gerald did would really hinder the story's progression.
Of course they could always Metal Gear it and give you logs to read for every level you progress, alternatively they could Dark Souls it and have the upgrades you get be made by Gerald.
Gerald going to Angel Island only doesn't make sense if you forget that Gerald is not personally a GUN agent, and Angel Island would still have a population of Echidnas defending it
What I'm saying is that hypothetically, if Gerald had gone to angel Island, and made it far enough to have seen the mural in hidden palace, be would have detected and found the master emerald. Because it's so powerful, the emerald would have been extracted by gun so that Gerald could use it in his experiments.
The echidna population would have been overpowered by gun's numbers and firepower, and the Emerald would have been forcibly taken.
That means that when sonic 3 happens, Angel Island is already in the ocean and had been there for decades. Everyone already knows about it, and it's not a legendary lost island that was only rediscovered accidentally when it was brought down by the death egg. And Eggman has no reason to be interested in it because the master emerald isn't there.
After all, Gun would want to keep the master emerald for themselves, and it's not like they'd just put it back where it was.
Because of the creation of artificial chaos we can assume that Gerald went to the mystic ruins and found some imagery of Chaos. So by consolidating the two ideas and saying that Gerald also found the mural of SuperSonic while he was there, we accomplish the same thing as the "Gerald went to angel island" theor, but without creating any events that contradict the story.
Having Gerald go to the mystic ruins find some pictures of chaos and then find some pictures of SuperSonic is easier than explaining
That he mounted an expedition to Angel Island that is somehow kept the secret from gun, and is that none of the parties involved could be bothered to take the Master emerald or maybe just decided to put the Master emerald back where it was after Gerald was dead.
The story makes more sense, nothing is lost as a result, and it doesn't conflict with Sonic 3.
But on another note if you believe that it makes more sense for Gerald to have gone to Angel Island, then how would you write it and how would you get past these snags in the story in a way that is still congruent with Sonic 3?
You're dropping the best Sonic content insanely fast. Well done, these story /lore deep dives are a real treat
around 01:25:30 is when i realized you're one of my all time favorite youtubers. This point in specific is so incredibly important, and I felt really grateful that there's someone out there that feels similarily towards this story as I do. I've been watching your videos non-stop since I discovered your channel and can't get enough of them. You do a really great job at keeping your editing minimalistic yet incredibly well coordinated with what you're saying, and the stuff you say, my god, the contents are so academic yet you frame your speech in a way that is so colloquial, this is a balance that is so extremely difficult to achieve but you seem to do it effortlessly.
Thanks for all these hours of entertainment, enrichment and company!
I don't know if anyone mentioned it in canon, but if 6 Chaos Emeralds can blow up half the moon, 1 Chaos Emerald not in his possession would probably be able to blow up Space Colony Arc if they put a Tails level genius on that project.
EASILY the BEST breakdown of this story I've seen on TH-cam. Great job man, your content is great (and the only thing carrying me through these night shifts lol). Keep it up, I hope your channel grows a lot!
I feel for ya. I used to work nights shifts. It's awful. Having something to listen to is the only way to retain a shred of sanity. So I'm glad my videos can do that for you.
As a kid, I didn’t bat an eye when this game introduced the concept of a government and president as well as Knuckles being a treasure hunter to the game world because I had religiously watched the OVA prior to SA2’s release. I sort of took ALL sonic content I consumed as canon of some kind. I love that you’ve approached this series with a focus on just what has been included in the games up to this point because it really served to zoom out my lens for analyzing this game narratively after being so close to it for so long and taking things for granted without even realizing it.
Dude you’ve easily become one of my favorite Sonic TH-camrs! Please keep making vids you’re super entertaining bro
The part of where the Idea that the Shadow might not be the Real Shadow and/or have the memories be fake which was not in the game but in the manual is further developed through the Shadow Androids and other Shadows in Sonic Heroes and the Shadow the Hedgehog Game
Also PJ’s video about Knuckles finally made me realize why Rouge was designed the way they designed her
i really appreciate these videos. they're very fair in their criticism, while still acknowledging when the _feeling_ still comes across anyway. plus there are a lot of small bits here that i never really noticed or thought about.
great video!
This was a great video. Listening to long videos while I do my work helps out a great deal and these are perfect
Amazing video!! This was a great listen while I work. While I understand the story of Sonic Adventure 2, this really helps me fully realize everything about this story and why people love this game so much. It really leaves you wanting more and learning more about these characters particularly Shadow the Hedgehog himself. Shadow is truly an interesting character that I would have loved if they expanded more on. (I know Shadow the Hedgehog exists... but that really didn't answer anything for me if I'm being honest).
It just makes me wish that SEGA really fully understood Shadow as a character and not just an edgy Sonic. Overall this is a great story, not the best story there ever was.. but a pretty damn good one. Thank you for putting so much work into this video!
I really enjoy listening to these videos while I'm working.
Man. Watching this really made me see things differently now. And too think I knew everything about what this game was and what it was trying to tell with it's story
I love how deep you are diving for this video. Using the Japanese translation and the manuals to find all the info. You’ve help recontexualize one of my childhood games in a great way, thank you
I love this game and Shadow became one of my most fav characters of all time. The complex things happening in this game is just awesome. They did such a good job with the balancing of of Sonic and Shadow and how each one played off of each other.
the purpose of the eclipse cannon crashing into the earth is because gerald robotnik knew one day some greedy,power hungry person would put all the chaos emeralds in the cannon. Crashing the cannon kills everyone on the planet and on the ark, no one survives.
Very poetic
I don't think Shadow only turning to help humanity because it actually was Maria's wish, and not of his own volition, is a problem at all. To me that makes the character of Shadow more genuine. He's not a villain, nor a hero. He's Maria's friend and someone who's confused about his place in the world. I think that alone is more relatable than any hero or villain character can ever be. He's just... all of him .
Gerald says in his journal that he has control of Shadow's memories. So it is extremely heavily implied. Why would he say that if it wasn't the case?
@@Pariah6950 I just don't remember this happening, but then again I have a terrible memory, does this happen in the game? By the way, I played it in Japanese with English subtitles in case it's something only mentioned in the dub or something.
@@nexisvids There's only one line about it when Rouge reads his diary. Like I said, they throw things at you fast.
Also, the default subtitles are still the ones for the dub. You need the retranslation mod to see accurate subtitles.
The story to this game always felt so mysterious and intriguing to me.
I feel like this channel's going to blow up with content like this. Godspeed Pariah695.
A very thorough and engaging analysis, love it!
I know you briefly mentioned the game Shadow the Hedgehog (perhaps negatively), but I'm very curious what the script for that game is in Japanese and if it's consistent with how you explained Shadow speaks here in SA2. Is it possible you could cover Shadow the Hedgehog too? Of course, sonic heroes is kind of needed for context of that game, but it still has a fascinating script with plot twists that add to the story of SA2.
Also, one little detail about Shadow's super form, if the "inhibitor ring" concept is to be taken as canon then that may be an alternative explanation instead of saying it is an imperfect super sonic. Later games even give them some different powers.
Don't worry. I'll be covering everything.
Shadow doesn't curse in the Japanese script.
12:11 Can we really blame the humans/Amy for mistaking Shadow for Sonic during the Adventure 2 events when Sonic, in the entire series, is the only one with so many different appearances? Sonic can become golden with 7 Chaos Emerald since Sonic 2 (and was seen doing so by many people at the end of Sonic Adventure), all colors of the rainbow when he became Hyper Sonic with the Super Emeralds in Sonic 3&K (a png in Adventure talks about the events of Sonic 3 in the train station if I remember correctly, unless you consider Hyper non-canon), and in Unleashed where the dude literally becomes a fucking werewolf with spikes on his shoes. (And if we have to take the Storybook games into account: in Secret Rings he turns completely purple with no pupils and white stripes (and his shoes are gone?), and in Black Knight he wears full golden armor.) Is it a stretch to assume that, from their point of view, it could just be Sonic in a different form? Like, "Hmm, I guess this time he's black with red stripes and jet boots? I wonder what kind of ancient relics/gems he got his hands on this time? Also, Sonic commited burglary... i guess...?". I think from their perspective, that's a sound assumption, especially if anthropomorphic hedgehogs aren't very common in this world.
For those who don’t know Rouge was never stated to be a agent for G.U.N. In one of her recaps she states that being a spy was just a side gig.
It is shown in the game that she is working with president to get info on project Shadow. For proof of this, watch the hero side story cutscenes of Sonic and Tails raiding the president limousine, after the two leave when they got the coordinates of the Ark. The president hears from his secretary that he is receiving a tentative transmission from his agent.
This correspondence with the dark side cutscene of Eggman throwing a fit because Sonic got in his way again when he was negotiating with the president, after Eggman and Shadow leave the room Rouge repots to her client (the President) that her research of project Shadow is still underway.
again it was never stated in game that she was in cahoots with G.U.N.
Plus why would G.U.N. want info on project Shadow when they already had it after they raided the Ark? It just doesn’t make sense for Rouge to be working for G.U.N. Especially when she had to fight flying dog back on prison island.
The last few minutes of this video is exactly why I'm worries about the next sonic movie. Loved 1 and 2, but are we really ready to adapt this story into that world? I just don't see it not being a mess. But then I'll probably enjoy it no matter what because it's sonic and I'm me
They will certainly have to alter some things. They will probably do a better job of it tbh! The director has stated that they understand that Shadow's backstory is what makes him so profilic and that they will be respectful of how they handle his character and backstory in the movie. Also the director is a bit of a self confessed Shadow fan boy so I think the movie should be pretty safe with them.
I do wonder if they will get rid of the "Am I the real Shadow" thing. For casuals in the audience it may just make the plot a bit too complex and ultimately its not a crucial question because he is of course the real deal anyway.
They'll just remove the Ark and Eclipse Cannon and the Biolizard. Amy can be gone too and frankly they could have do what they did in X and have a human character talk Shadow out of his villainy.
On the emeralds, iirc manuals and many media state that the emeralds always disperse after a collective use, which is something that happened since sonic 1 since sonic has to recollect them on 2 to unlock super sonic
Tho on the special stages case, yeah that one is def wacky cause they only comeback in Heroes but they never mentioned again
Lastly on Shadow using Chaos Spear despite no Chaos Emerald, he seems to actually being able to harness Chaos energy from his environment or some other way; mainly seen in how in Shadow the Hedgehog beginning stage he can use Chaos Control and Chaos Blast after moral compass mechanics despite having 0 Chaos Emeralds on him
Edit/PS:
Great video btw, definitely seeing a video that JUST addresses SA2 plot was interesting to see since never seen that many
Tho I will say videogames def need some kind of passive storytelling in their levels since their plots tends to fall all over the place if said levels are taken away (reason why you can't just adapt 1-to-1 plots of a videogame into a movie, even books at times, and have it work as intended)
I actually don't agree that the chaos emeralds are "supposed" to disperse, because sonic still has them at the beginning of 3. even if it took place immediately after 2, sonic had to detransform, to land on tails plane, and still have the emeralds to tranfroms again, for knuckles to beat them out of super sonic. so for me, even if stated in other material, there just isn't a lot of evidence in the games to support that. we don't ever really get a word on what happens to emeralds after the games for the most part so that doesn't help either.
It should be noted that Shadow's escape pod never being recovered could be a manufactured record, a complete lie. This is an event that happened nearly half a century before the events of the game take place, so nobody was around to certify this.
It's pretty cool that, despite all the rushing to release the game by June 23rd, 2001, the plot still managed to explore the character of Shadow the Hedgehog while still retaining some mystery and ambiguity.
I think in the fight at metal harbour, eggman expected to be able to fold tails easily only to realise tails isnt far from the same level and they kept drawing. At that point eggman gave up and left because tails held his ground too well. Not that tails won
Interesting opinions. Can't wait to see how you do Heroes and Shadow lol.
When a former English teacher reviews the story of SA2:
1:12:39 yeah Gearlds deal with Black Doom makes a whole lot more sense of why G.U.N raided the Ark
Great analysis of the story. Mad respect.
What I like most about this story is how it strengthens both Eggman and Sonic as characters and in their power.
Eggman is shown as a serious and competent threat and Sonic especially through Shadow is shown as intelligent and powerful, showing why he can always defeat Eggman, and that’s never taken lightly.
I'm pretty sure "G.U.N." is actually a backronym. In Japanese, "guntai" means "military," often abbreviated to just "gun," and so the dev team probably designed a bunch of crates and enemies that said "gun" on them to denote they were military equipment. But then they needed a reason in English for all this stuff to say "gun" on them and so I'm guessing they came up with the "Guardian Units of Nations" after the fact to explain it away.
You're right, G.U.N. that's exactly what it is in japanese.
I'm really glad you mentioned how Sonic X has little details that were dropped from the original story. As something of a weeb myself who actually likes Sonic X, I hope that we might someday get an arc-by-arc breakdown of the show from you, or something like that. That show really needs more analysis, because there is good stuff there that's interesting to consider. Not to mention some of the best Chaotix moments in the franchise.
I originally had whole parts talking about Sonic X's adaptations in both my SA story videos, comparing them to the games and what they did better or worse. But I had to cut them due to copyright. I'd like to talk about Sonic X at some point though. I was very impressed after watching the whole thing subbed recently, especially season 3.
@@Pariah6950 For sure. I went through it for the first time just last year. I was surprised how they nailed the characters most of the time, especially Amy and Tails. Really highlights a bygone era when Sega wasn't afraid to use their own characters and allow them to have a full range of emotions. Almost everyone gets moments for their humanity (for lack of a better term)to come through, even Eggman. There's something there I wish was in more of the franchise post-Heroes.
Sorry to hear copywrong made you compromise your script. Fuck this platform lol Nonetheless, I hope you get the chance to share your thoughts on the show. Perhaps as a Patreon exclusive release, should you decide to open a patreon. I know I'd be glad to throw a few bones your way to keep this quality content coming.
I believe that Shadow has always been able to generate a little bit of Chaos power without an emerald so him using it during the last Sonic v Shadow fight isn't that surprising to me.
Great vid :)
Sad to see how underrated u are
The way you describe the dynamic between Rouge and Knuckles reminds me a lot of Donald and Daisy Duck. Knuckles is very short tempered like Donald and Rouge is ladylike just as Daisy is but can get just as or even more aggressive than their male counterparts, I think it’s partially why Knuckles and Rouge work so well together
I like how Eggman is one person, but can still be considered his own faction because of his army of robots that he built.
Finally done. The fact you make the videos so long is why I cannot save my thoughts for just one comment.
Since I saw Heroes first, I don't have much to offer as a thought, other than afterwards is Shadow and 06, and then Unleashed. Those first two would be written by non-writers (Shadow written by the director of the Adventure games and a game designer who was practically dying designing the levels of Heroes) and the previous guy with an anime writer (06). Only Unleashed would be written by an actual writer, one from the Sonic X series in fact.
I hope you can find the way to review the future games, and Windii recovers her content.
I equate Shadow to that of Vergil from the Devil May Cry series. They both serve a very similar functions in their premiere games, have calm collected demeanors, and a move sets and aesthetics that are debatably much cooler than the series mainstay in some respects.
I'm so surprised you went through that whole eclipse canon scene, without mentioning or referencing the Snapcube fandub lol
Anyways, great video. Don't have much to say
Love your content and this is one of your best vids
bruh ive watched so many videos going in depth about this game but somehow this is the first time im hearing about the whole sonic prophecy theory and shit just blew my mind
eggman might want all 7 chaos emeralds to do
ya know..
the one thing that only all seven chaos emeralds can do
Damn you really went for every detail in this one
Gerald wanted the ARK to crash into the earth because he knew it wouldn't be as quick as firing the eclipse cannon. This would give humanity time to fear it, thus creating that sense of despair he was aiming for
gotta say dude your videos are insanely good, super thorough and thoughtful. I will pray to gosh so u get more subs :)
Gerald wants the Ark to crash is so that it’s not immediate. As he said “I want you all to feel the dispair that I did.” He could have had the canon fire in 27 minutes yes but having the shit crashing down to the Earth is all the more terrifying
Also in terms of in universe explanation… Sonic is the only hedgehog we see running around Sonic’s universe for a long time. Shadow seems to be based on the Sonic prophecy on Angel Island considering Shadow believes Sonic is the ultimate lifeform (because he is). Shadow thus looks like Super Sonic… a form in which Sonic takes where he goes from a Blue Hedgehog to a Golden one… why wouldnt anyone assume he could go to a black form as well? Especially when he’s the only known of his kind by our perspective and likely theirs as well? Sonic has changed appearance before and he’s the only Hedgehog fast enough and powerful enough to do what Shadow is doing
The presentation is so bad in the NA release that my older brother still won't believe that it's a great story. He's too in love with SA1
16:22 it's like poetry, it rhymes
Very nice video! Love all of the analysis.
Going back to the whole Sonic/Shadow Ultimate Lifeform bit and using Chaos Control, would this inadvertently imply Silver is the Ultimate Lifeform born in the future? Since he’s the only living being on the entire planet aside from those two capable of using Chaos Control
Best story in the whole series
I don’t think sega can do something as good as that story with their baby games nowadays
I believe that there is a reason for Robotnic (Eggman) to want the seventh emerald and it has more to with his personality. I think that the reason why Robotnic wanted the seventh emerald is because he doesn't have the patience to wait the needed twenty-four hours when having just the six. If he had the seventh one, than that could speed-up the process. And also by having the seventh emerald it would make him even more powerful and more feared which is something that's part of his personality, he's a power hungry narcissist who loves to be feared and feared greatly and remember that he’s someone who loathes humanity and greatly prefers machines as machines are predictable and will obey him without giving him a problem. That way by having the canon at it's full power, everyone will obey him. Robotnic is a force to be reckoned with. So, he really wants the canon at full power more as a terrifying threat in order for him to have full control over the people of the planet and to only use the canon if they won't obey his demands. In other words Robotnic is giving them an ultimatum which is either obey my rule or I shoot this powerful weapon at the earth and kill everyone.
I'm glad you pointed out that while a good story, SA2 isnt some kind of miraculous godsend to humanity. There are so many incredible stories out there, both in video games and in forms of media more conducive to story-telling, and as much we may not like to admit its, SA2 ends up not too special in the grand scheme of things. Even within video games, considering shit like Uncharted 4 running around, it ends up outclassed conceptually and in execution.
Great vid, surprised you haven't caught on in terms of views.
I believe that SA2 is a good example of a “comfort story”, comfort here meaning the same as in “comfort character”. It’s a story that means a lot, usually positively, to a person or people, regardless of its objective quality. While SA2 is no masterpiece, the fact that it’s so beloved by the fandom proves it’s a comfort story to many.
This video also reminded me of the “fandom zone/fandom barrier-reef theory” I saw on a Tumblr post. Basically, the most famous and notorious fandoms gather on media that are objectively mediocre or bad, but fun to watch/consume. The Sonic series is a prime example of this: most if not all of the stories are either bad or have glaring holes in them. However, the fandom still cherishes them because they’re charming, and fandom being fandom, this results in the glorification of the better stories in the series.
Also a bonus since the original post I mentioned mentions how good media should make you stare at the wall for 2 hours: I watched Everything Everywhere All At Once yesterday and actually cried on my way home. For the first time. That’s probably what OP meant with that
The news channels are reporting on an anthropomorphic hedgehog who *moves very fast* breaking the law *in the night, has dark fur,* and the technology of the time was *standard definition television...*
How could they _not_ think that it was Sonic?
By the way, SA2 is the last Sonic game in the original canon, it was created to be the ending to the story. Sonic Heroes is a reboot and terrible at that too, Shadow the Hedgehog tried to continue the original canon but failed completely and "kinda rebooting the franchise" became Sonic Team philosophy for every game.
yes i was hoping someone would mention this. it's the reason eggman reconciles with everyone and feels so closed and there are so many goodbyes. there's questions open but nothing that really needs another game to be elaborated on
I feel like, when it comes to Sonic Adventure 2 and its story, it's less about the story being a flawless masterpiece and more about what it meant for people and for the series. As you stated before, this was the best story the Sonic series had so far, with different layers to it, especially including the stuff that was cut or wasn't included in the actual game. It kind of made fans look forward to how the series would move forward afterwards.
Needless to say that things didn't go well, between Sega's bad choices, the mismanagement of Sonic Team in general, the crushing deadlines...All culminating with 06, which pretty much changed the series forever. Sonic focused more and more on stories that were pretty much comedy-focused, stumbling along the way as Sonic Team struggled between not exactly knowing where to take the series and Sega mishandling them as they pretty much always did. It's a fact that Sonic games were always done under very tight deadlines and that seemed to be the bane of so many titles through the history of the series.
But I digress...The fact is that, people keeps going back to SA2 because, despite the wonky story writing, it had an ambition and a heart that was never captured again. It wanted to push the series forward and develop its characters , which is why it upset so many people when all of that development was conveniently swept under the rug in future games. From Colors and onwards especially, it felt like Sonic games were less light-hearted and more cynical in their approach, too busy mocking themselves rather than trying to write a genuine story.
I don't necessarily feel Sonic games need to have a complex story. Rather, I feel like they need to give that adventurous feeling that both the SA games and the classic games gave. Not everything needs to be a world-ending threat of course, you can have smaller stories too and have light-hearted moments alongside more serious ones, without them intoxicating each other in a manner that'd make the tonal shifts too unnatural. But there needs to be some sort of heart and ambition that just hasn't been there for years. In a way, it's like the nuance has been lost. For all the plotholes SA2 has, its best moments are characterized by a nuance that the new stuff is missing. I feel like the light narrative of the Genesis games had some of that nuance too, albeit in a very different manner of course. An approach that wasn't just trying to make a game about a cartoon hedgehog. I feel like even the live action movies didn't capture that nuance as they felt really superficial in comparison, even if technically being functional stories. But I've been writing too much already, so I'll stop here!
Great video overall and, while I didn't agree on everything, I really admired the lengths you went to explain everything in detail. Kudos to you!
this is the most cohesive analysis I've seen of anything sonic related
What i also like about SA2 is that it is basically Dr. Eggman's story as well. It's about his grandfather and discovering that yet sharing the same high intelligence, he was not that crazy that he would destroy the whole world including his own grandson.
I do hope so much that they adapt this Story for a 4th Sonic movie as this story really needs Sonic SA1's plot points before this one. It's not directly within the story progression itself but more certain elements that are build up in the story around (Perfect) Chaos and the Master Emerald that channel over into SA2 plot around Shadow.
Plus it would feel rushed anyways to immediately go to the peak of the story of the games and have two Super Hedgehogs, while we still need a proper battle of Super Sonic on his own.
And not having a live action Perfect Chaos vs Super Sonic in a flooded city would be a missed opportunity.
It would have been super cool to have unlocked some sort of "Marathon" or "Duality" story after finishing the Last Story, where you could play the game like this mod and play all events in one single chronological order.
Rad to see you're also using the Retranslated mod, SA2 isn't as poorly translated as some games from it's time, but SMT 3 Nocturne this is not.
For me personally, SA2 from a story, gameplay, chao garden, replay ability… one of the greatest video games to ever be created for me. And if no one else agrees… fuck it I still think so
About the Biolizard..............
Oftentimes, prototypes fail and the creators have to go in another direction to make it work. A prototype is comparable to a draft of a script. You'll see that sometimes, finalized scripts in some movies were radically different than the first draft.
Man I'd love a similar mod where the story is in chronological order with Sonic 06. I've always loved that game but my first impressions of it was watching all the cutscenes in chronological order like a movie, and I think the game has a lot of the same issues with sonic adventure 2 with trying to split up its story when it works far better being watched in order.
Reminds me of how in depth Quentin reviews is and I love it! Keep it up!
Yeah because a one and half hour video is the same as wasting your life away making a 8 hour video on a sitcom. Quentin Reviews is more just depressing then anything else.
@@radiokunio3738 lmao I watched his reviews, they're good background noise, but he actually does a lot of in depth analysis and stuff. The vids are unironically good.
@@radiokunio3738 dawg why do you do Quinton like that lmao
Fantastic Video🔥
About the Eggman wanting all of the emeralds point, it actually wasnt his idea to collect them all. That was Shadow’s plan and an order for Eggman and Rouge to collect them all. Shadow was the one that told Eggman to find all the emeralds and then to meet with him at the Ark right in the beginning of the game.
I realized that, and that could have been an easy fix. The problem is when Shadow says to get all the Emeralds, Eggman just goes along with it. He should have questioned, "Why? 6 is more than enough to instill fear in the people on Earth." Then Shadow could be all, "NO! We need all 7." And then he convinces Eggman to go along with it with flawed logic that Eggman goes along with, just to stay on Shadow's good side. Would have been better foreshadowing that Shadow was up to something more.
@@Pariah6950 well the thing is, Shadow wouldnt even let Eggman talk to begin with lol. Shadow was hasty af to get them emeralds.
And also, Shadow _did_ say he would grant Eggman one wish if he got all the emeralds before the fact anyway, so Eggman was kinda like “😯…😁welp i cant beat those odds.” Haha
I first encountered this game when I watched a friend play the final story when I was 8 or so. It blew my mind because up to that moment, I'd only played the Genesis games & the only concept I had of Sonic lore was reruns of Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog on Toon Disney. I'm really curious how the next movie will handle Shadow & his back story. I'm a bit worried tbh.
great videos, great channel!
you need to talk about the GBA games, it would be rlly cool!
Not to worry. They're coming.
Honestly I'm glad you mentioned how the story split hurts the storytelling. I didn't know there was a mod that plays the story as one storyline. The closet I can get to that is doing it myself going back and forth.
I never got the point of "character stories" in sonic games, it should be one long story where you play as multiple characters rather than being split up in different sections just to get the final story which I'm glad they got rid of later.