The whole time I was listening to this I was like "Oh course Woolie doesn't understand the social element of MMOs; he regularly has another person on the couch next to him, being social with him. He goes to events, he's an FCG man through and through. He has enough socialization in his life that he doesn't need the artificial additive of server chat." Glad they got there in the end.
This was one of the best parts. I think when Woolie was talking about chat rooms during games, someone in chat said "you mean like people who stream?", moments before Pat's response. : D
Woolie, MMO chats used to be like 3am gas station visits where 3 kids a crackhead and a underpaid employee would be arguing the most insane stuff while the sound of the hotdog roller's lightbulb was burning out in the background. it was absolutely nothing like a twitch chat screaming about missing out on content and ruining the experience. the chats were cringe stupid and annoying but old MMO chats were the best fuckin memories I've had in gaming, just a bunch of strangers sharing a moment. now the world is silent, I have no mouth and I must Quickplay
I still have one convo from over 10 years ago seared into my brain where I saw like 5 people debating if lesbian corn was gay or not. 3AM Ul'dah is something else man
I was playing DC Online not long ago and while I’m doing solo stuff I’m just seeing this cesspit of an argument happening between some people in the chat log. No one I know uses actual voice chat in the game (no one I’ve seen) but boy do a select group of people like to have text arguments over an MMO
Honestly in ffxiv I feel like it's mostly get what you give. Like, if you start talking to people in a dungeon they're way more likely to actually engage and talk back.
I think the main issue is overworld stuff though. When I'm out doing fates and completing MSQ, the map is like empty with no one talking. I'm not sure what the solution would be to have more players just be in the out in the overworld so you get more interaction like that. Maybe if the Aetherytes weren't a thing and people actually had to travel to different city hubs?
@@Jstar300 that would have the opposite effect. People would get even more frustrated with how much longer it would take to get through MSQ that they would just quit the game entirely. I know I would.
“No one talked to me during Endwalker.” In an mmo where everyone was trying to get through the story finale before someone spoiled it in general chat. But also Pat being oblivious to people who chat AT ALL is wild but not unexpected because it’s Pat
I disagree with Pat about people not talking in ffxiv. Im not in a free company and don't have any friends who play it so I'm always doing stuff with Randoms, and we'll talk to eachother and people can explain mechanics to first timers. You get what you put into it. If you only play with friends your not gonna have that experience.
As someone who very recently started ffxiv there's a good amount of talking in tbe chat I'm on controller so I don't really participate as its very difficult to type but yeah
Yeah. I can certainly understand saying FFXIV is around the quieter games chat-wise. But there is ABSOLUTELY a lot of talking there. In fact. I got the habbit of closing shout chat in expansion launch because people CAN'T SHUT UP! Risking spoilers
It's important to note how the age of social media has effectivelly disenchanted the appeal of the 2000's MMO general chat, or even guild chat. You're inundated with online communication with incredible ease, whereas back in the 2000's, you'd genuinely have to log in to the game to talk to most of your friends in guild chat. That quality isn't as potent nowadays, hasn't been for over a decade.
This is the worst lie being spread by “modern mmo” platforms because a genuine ingame interaction will be 100x more memorable than any Twitter interaction by a landslide
@@kip_c It is more memorable, obviously, but it's crazy to say it's near as exceptional and cloistered into online games as it was 18 years ago. Back then, you'd interact with your friends in school through Windows Messenger, but the people you only knew in WoW only existed inside that guild-chat, or a forum site if someone made one. Nowadays, most guilds give you a Discord link along with your guild invite.
Global, area, party, guild chat. Ten, fifteen years ago the things I read and replied to on those tabs would instill in me emotions a discord channel could never. Strangers in a strange place saying strange things as only strange friends could say. The familiarity of a found family forged fiercely from fraternity and folly. Cherished comerades and community intertwined by common purpose. Love, by what means what one could do without words. I remember when every name was an opportunity, not common trivialities, not equals on a rat race, not a requirement to success but a brother or sister in arms. I remember when we still sang.
@@ReSF91 It will take a while but, the best time to try seemed to be when they announce a level increase for that job. A lot of people will be trying to level or get spells to be ready for the increase. When the increase happens, FATES are going to be swarmed with BLUs.
Pat was not too long ago asking to be able to play FFXIV without people... he hated having to interact with other people... he said how he hated the talking in Eureka... that he wanted to play with bots!!
Pretty sure at this point Pat is just trying to convince himself that FF14 is bad because he doesn't feel like playing it anymore. Dude keeps finding caveats to keep his "14 isn't social actually" point alive but the closest to an actual point he gets to is that he wants more unhinged, "forced" interactions which is ... a very Pat point to make . It's also pretty funny because he indirectly admits that he pretty much isolated himself into a single friend group for his 10 years of playing... I guess he's blaming the game for not dragging him kicking and screaming into unhinged 3am novice network discussions ? Again, very Pat *shrug*
Its streamer mentality, they isolate themselves to try to sanitize their stream and then complain that they are isolated and no one interacts woth them
Pretty funny listening to saying that he enjoys having to interact with general chat and ask people to do things in MMOs , when past year he was complaining about having to do that in Eureka, in FFXIV.
Weird, I've never been in online game and been like "You know what would make this better? An endless wall of people flaming each other in general chat" but that's just me
He's right in a sense but wrong in why that makes a game special. It's like when people talk about MW2 lobby voice chats. They were terrible things but they were our link to other people and just the fact we could talk to random people sometimes was important.
10:40 If history is any indication, We can not Pat. It happened already back in 2008, It was called Warhammer: Age of Reckoning. Developed by well-respected indie MMO developer Mythic Entertainment. Everyone who played it said it should be the next top MMO. It was developed for PvP first, then had the PvE content balanced around it, so PvP was actually a fun time for everyone. You know what happened? People played it for maybe 2 months then abandoned it. I was employed at the studio at the time of release. I got to see EA do what EA does firsthand when they push games before they are ready then merge studios.
The fastest way for your MMO to die is if PVP is a primary selling point. It's so bad that New World pivoted the entire core game away from it, making it instance only and no dropping loot on death. Plus I mean Phantasy Star Online already proved fucking nobody wants to drop loot on death unless you can get it back so obscenely fast you defeat the purpose of losing it at all (high level RuneScape or trained Albion characters, hi).
what killed age of reckoning for me was when I realized that when I wanted to explore content in areas I out leveled, I was turned into a chicken and couldn't kill anything. removing the ability to clear old content was a major reason why it failed
Really bums me out, how AoR got treated. Came out and died out before my time and I never gelled with PvP in MMOs, but I mourn its passing nonetheless. Now I'm super invested in the Warhammer IPs, nearly two decades too late for it, and we're probably *never* going to see another Warhammer MMO. I know of Return of Reckoning, it's cool that their community seems to be going strong, but I couldn't get into it and bounced right off. What I wouldn't give for a not-shit modern Warhammer MMO in Current Year.
@@UltimaKeyMaster My friend got me to try Throne and Liberty (the other amazon MMO alongside New World) due to the really cool world building, and while I like the world and gameplay, and genuinely *want* to have more to do in it... It's *very much* a PVP first MMO, and falls into all of these issues, to the point that after about two months of playing off and on, I'm essentially dropping it except to hang out with that friend. As soon as you finish the story (which is pretty short, even exploring all the areas and doing all the side quests doesn't stretch it much), there's basically nothing left to do. Everything late game PVE like dungeons and world bosses is for building up gear to do PVP, the dungeon chat is insanely toxic cause no one wants to do it and speedruns it, half the events might as well not exist because they're PVP and so basically only the biggest guilds get to use them and everyone else gets nuked. So yeah, seconding this, seems like PVP-first is a death knell for any MMO, because it leaves PVE as an afterthought, and unless you're there *for* the PVP then you're just going to stop after a while, simply because there's nothing left for you to do. Sure it gives people who want that something to do, but it means anyone who isn't interested in PVP (which is going to be the majority of casual players) isn't going to stick around, and even if other parts are fun they're just going to run out of things to do or get driven away by the PVP-focused core of the playerbase.
The thing with undertale is like, its supposed to be a game that you get whatever ending you get, and then are presented with the option of "oh wait if i do this again can i let everyone live?" And that is a great experience! But everyone wants to watch someone get the good/correct ending which then comes out as "if you kill anyone youre playong the game wrong and youll be punished for it." This feeling is helped by the games good ending being "please dont play again and ruin our happiness ". even though the game doesn't get like upset at you for killing one monster, and in fact expects you to kill a few your first time, its a combo of fans connecting emotional wirh the message, plus not wanting your favorite streamer to miss out on the ending that caused the phenomenon that is undertale fandom. Even though this means that there are a bunch of neutral endings and different branches based on who dies that most people whove played will never see
Pat talking about how no one talks to each other in FFXIV and I am reminded how the Novice Network on my server (mateus) isnt the same as other servers cause all the stuff he said he didnt see in FFXIV I see on the regular on my Novice Network . Not to say he isnt completely wrong but I also recall it being more of a JP thing too where people talk in private convos as opposed to just open chat on the JP side. Western side does more stuff in open chat but he is right that it can be segmented a bit.
I really like FF14 in comparison to other MMOs that I bounced off of because of the limited social aspects. I have a limited social battery where after a certain point I really don't want to have to deal with talking to people. So an MMO where socializing is entirely optional but is there if you want it is perfect for me.
i gotta say, i disagree with pat here. just because he's gotten so used to ffxiv doesnt mean people arent social on it. i started as a new player 2/3 years ago, and there were many times where i wanted to know something or needed help and would just say it into the general chat and have at least one person respond. it was part of what endeared the game to me. now, if youre in an area that isnt as populated (especially by experienced players who have already cleared up to current content), like the ass end of coerthas western highlands for instance, your chances of getting random questions answered drops quite a bit, but set one food into ishgard and someone will likely respond. it's also worth noting that having a whole conversation in shout chat (the area-wide chat) is usually considered rude in ffxiv, but say chat (range limited) is more commonly used for local conversations, and tell (whisper to target) chat is where most 2-person conversations move to. tldr: pat likely thinks this way because he hasnt actually had to ask questions in ffxiv for years, and has become so used to the game that he can just tune this kind of thing out. ffxiv chat is still social
yeah, taking into account the fact pat's 1) not needed something like novice network in years and 2) been doing content with a dedicated group of people for a long time, he probably hasn't had as many chances to run into friendly randos as the average solo player. it really doesn't feel that much less sociable than say, guild wars 2, outside of specifically the open world areas
idk, I played ff14 and haven't encountered anything that i would call "classic mmo experience", where people just chat while playing the game. People either hyper focused on things they are doing or AFK. Frankly, i don't think i ever saw a person when i was doing my crafting jobs, like cutting trees or mining rocks. Everyone just in queues for instances most of the time.
Is it a workplace environment or a Cafe environment? Will asking questions get you answers? Will people bant some nonsense with you? Are people coming in hoping they don't have to interact with anyone else so they can get through their dailies smoothly or are they hoping that everything goes off the rails and someone yells if Stuart Little could beat Remy in a rat-cage fistfight? Do people argue for Stuart Little, Remy, or leave so they can continue leveling alone?
I legit had no idea what Pat was talking about with FFXIV being quiet until I realized not everyone is in the novice network. It’s like permanent Barrens chat without the slurs.
Its the Forum vs Discord question. Lots of old heads here will know what its like but its not something so easily described. The very concept of "social" has changed, what we define it as is so vastly different from what it used to be.
Wow... 31:01 this is such a painfully good callback. And the fact that Pat grew enough as a person to bring it up himself without wild anxiety... Pat Growth Confirmed.
29:40 In a lot of online interactions people don't expect to ever see each other again, while in person its more probable you will. That change can shift the social dynamic a lot.
Damn this hit the nail on the head for me. I used to play FF11 and getting a leveling party together felt so intimate. Even the etiquette between different parties to look out for each other if someone pulled a mob train to the zone entrance. I would spend whole play sessions just hanging out in Windurst, offering to help out new players, chatting it up while I helped boost them the first few levels or just protect them from stray mobs.
To have a social experience in an MMO you have to give them time to type. Modern WoW doesn't really give room to breathe when you're doing content, and even if you're leveling in quests the only breaks for being social are when you want to be a bit inefficient. So being social gets pushed over to "waiting for the queue to pop on my dungeon so I'm just running around the capital on my mount and reading Trade Chat." Classic has downtime all the time whether you're on your way somewhere or eating/drinking after a pull, so may as well talk in party/area chat. Been playing Old School Runescape and the social aspect has shades of that until you get into a clan chat. Most people are zipping here and there on their individual tasks and can't stop to chat unless you're both grinding in the same spot and that doesn't need a lot of attention. Wintertodt comes to mind. But in a clan chat you can in a way get rid of "time waste" during dull combat, going from place to place, or just straight grinding a resource. You can do this a little in a WoW guild, but in most content you don't have that downtime I've found.
I agree with this. When I started trying to get back into MMOs somewhat recently I felt like I got a lot slower with typing because normally in other games you had pretty decent sized windows to text in the chat but it feels impossible to do so now. I only recently realized how nonstop they have become now. There just isn't much pause in what you're doing to make small talk to pass the time now. It's constant go go go which kills any real opportunity to talk. Sometimes you might get lucky if you're looking for party members for something kind of specific, but that rarely happens too since there is usually some kind of system now to automatically find party members as well. I made a lot of friends back in the day from it being annoying to find party members and you being incentivized to add and make friends with good players so you naturally would just grow a bond with each other. Now no one really has to bother since you can just instantly gather a party with the click of a button. It ruins any forms of attachment and feels like you're playing with npcs a good chunk of the time now.
Speaking of Ragnarok Online the main chat channels on your average hacked server these days are severwide and there are always people chatting or looking for groups. The social aspect difference between older mmo's like RO and PSO and newer ones is different. Hopefully future mmos can recapture that early 2000s feel
In FFXIV I think part of it is people who only sit in their FC house, only talking to their FC members. This lessens the pool of general chat people. Also, you don't have the experience of someone random running up to you in a main city and starting a convo, or emoting at you. It's a microcosm of current suburbanization, where people are isolated into small enclaves, and don't have 3rd places to be in or see others going about their day. But also, rare is a general chat any good. Like, GW2 back in the day was pretty good, b/c you'd have big groups roaming around to farm events (like Hunt trains in FFXIV). But moderation and community reinforcement is needed; otherwise, it becomes a shithole of racism and harassment. This then leads people to just playing with people they know of Discord, leaving general chat to fester.
I've seen the old type general mmo chat in one place, and that's SW:TOR. Most worlds have people chatting, but the Dromund Kaas one (first dark side post-tutorial world) in infamous for a reason. You do unfortunately have to deal with the star wars fandom in their natural habitat however.
Absolutely disagree with Pat here when it comes to FFXIV. If you're talking about zones that you level out of and have no real reason to go back to once you're done there like overworld zones from old expansions, sure. But the three hub towns and the latest expansion's final hub absolutely have people standing around who are always more than happy to talk and hang out as far as I've seen. Novice Network's always pretty full and chatty and helpful, if you ask around for Hunt linkshells they're always full and running and you'll be invited to them pretty quickly. It even has its own, more degenerate Barrens chat, which is Balmung and Mateus. Not the e-fucking part (though there is that), but people arguing and baiting people into being angry in /shout chat and also just being 4chan.
"SF6 Battlehub feels like an arcade" And, my friends, is called player investment. And that is why the marketing is doing everything they can to keep them invested. SF5 taught them that the hardcore competitive scene will always be there, the way they weren't there during SF3 era. So they can be safely ignored, safe in the knowledge that they are crackheads addicted to the fighting game. Now they can focus on attracting the casual bade5 who DON'T want to play the fighting, but still want the feeling of belonging. Hence; Battlehub and all the cosmetics. There we go, mystery solved.
I feel like pat is just falling out of love with xiv and looking for logical reasons here. There's hunt trains, DC linkshells, talks happening in the major cities all the time, gemstone grinding parties, etc. depending on the DC you can hit more players than your PC can render lol. Most people who play xiv arent levelling or hanging around in old zones much outside gathering jobs. Xiv isn't really going to be a thing where you exit into outer gridania and ask for help, but it could be if you go back into the city proper. It is a very social game, but you have to opt into it.
@@kip_c I mean what's your suggestion, stop adding new zones? There's already hunt trains and gathering locations exclusive the older zones. Cities are incredibly populated. Is it literally people just want a Warframe global chat? If so, its a bit melodramatic reaction.
as someone who played gw2 for 7+ years now pat clearly hasnt been idle in lions arch for more than 10 minutes... that shit gets TOXIC sometimes in a hilarious way but often just in a Yikes Touch Grass way haha!! That city is kind of a hub and all sorts gather there
One Quick comment for Woolie at Pat regarding a vote kick (@25:00), It's Very Ontopic: Modern WoW actually it and it's a MASSIVE problem because people are super anti social. There is 0 communication and the one thing that is on people's brain is go fast. So 99% of the time no one READS the vote kick reason, they will just instantly click on Yes. New players tends to get kicked when they are more then 20 seconds behind, even tough they can 3 man the dungeon because it's meant for new players.
The Discord discussion reminds me of how Xbox Live Parties messed up Chromehounds (iirc). In that game you could only communicate with teammates that were within a certain range of your commander unit, but having the team join an Xbox Party made that unit obsolete.
older MMOs tend to be designed around the chatroom being the thing to interface with when waiting for cooldowns, and Less Relevant MMOs tend to not have people bringing their own parties into the experience, its Oldheads who'd chat with whoever. so its a number of things going on
I honestly dont understand where all the ffxiv doom and gloom is coming from? I just started playing like half a year ago, and have been having a blast. Met some cool people, sometimes hop into extremes/savages with randos, chat with people during farms and trains. I get people fall out of love with things, or run out of content theyre excited about but... Isnt that just the release cycle? I'm being honest about my curiousity here because i genuinly just dont feel the same way from personal experience.
Half of it is straight up "I no longer wish to play the game, so I must concoct a false reality in which the game was actually shit and I never liked it". The other half is that 99% of his playtime in the game was specifically curated in order to AVOID the rest of the playerbase. And now the success in avoiding every single interaction with other players by playing exclusively with like 10 people over the course of a decade has meant that his entire impression of the game is based off of that and not the experience that EVERYBODY ELSE plays with.
@ Yeah I get that, I def also inadvertently do that with media I lose interest it (ie. fixating on the bad more than the good). What I don't get is he literally was clowning people for trying to solo ffxiv and "never having a single meaningful or positive interaction with anyone else in the game" in prior podcasts so its just kinda comes across as circumstantially contradictory and weird to me especially as someone who picked up that game *because* he had so much good to say about it (and I happen to be having a lot of fun with it right now)
@@AnBeiHuangyou’re not alone on that. I remember him specifically going hard on the idea of not being social on FFXIV being weird, both on his stream and on the podcast. I’ve heard him turn on things before, but this time has felt the weirdest considering his own worlds not too long ago, relatively.
@@TheShockVox I remember in another episode he talked about how a person was expected to talk with people and organise in a voice chat while not doing so was strange, and that alone seemed unusual to me
while I partially agree with Pat that talking out in the world adding a new experience and connection, it's mixed. I've found a great friend group by finding someone in FFXIV who invited me to their discord, but I've also had a whole slew of slurs thrown my way when some weirdo finds out I'm gay. Mileage may vary depending on if you're part of a discriminated group
Feel this. Even with XIV’s reputation of being more queer friendly there are always scumbags out there to ruin your day. I’m glad I’ve got a friend group to play the game with already but it’s a shame that interacting with strangers in pretty much any online game is a roll of the dice for marginalized people. There’s definitely games I’ve wanted to play but don’t due to fear of discrimination. I guess tougher skin and all that but being queer has definitely impacted how I view certain games. I’m glad XIV at least has that queer presence, but not all games have that and it sucks.
I'm someone who does a lot of party finder and open world content in ff14 like hunts and fates. If you want people to talk to you, in ff14 and in life, you need to be the one to actually initiate the conversation. Only talking to your buds through discord and free company chat while complaining the open world social space is dead is not really helping to foster the environment Pat wants.
I do use Discord to talk to my friends in FFXIV, but because my FC isn't exclusively one group of friends, people chat around there pretty often. And in some servers, there's a TON of RP going on in the General chat, if that's your thing.
Honestly some of the most entertaining and memorable moments in all of my gaming experience have been those random encounters with ppl in MMOs. One of my favorite memories was just chilling out in a zone taking turns with randos to solo tough mobs. We barely spoke but it felt more raw and real than a lot of irl interactions I’ve had. There truly is something amazing about those passing strangers moments where you hang out with some people you just met for a few minutes or hours and then never see each other again.
Most social online game I've ever played was GT Sport. That box of scrolling text full of e-thugs, wannabe racers and weirdos was the highlight of every track day session.
Recently for me it’s been V Rising. Unless you’re on a really popular Server seeing someone else is going to be fairly rare. Cooperation is so fluid that having someone just swoop in and help with a fight and then vanish into the night is magical. I was just recently building my castle up and I hear metal and explosions happening not far away, I decided to follow the sounds of combat and just see a swath of destruction and explosions happening in the nearby town. Only to find loot everywhere and what remained of what I assumed were the other players.
I love multiplayer games, but mainly random matchmaking. I've met a lot of friends from just playing games with rando's. I really enjoy how chaotic it is sometimes, especially when you get a well coordinated team from a bunch of wacky weirdos who dont know each other. It definitely can be shitty though too.
How much of a freak am I that when I heard Pay say "Elden ring Nightfall", I hope and pray they have you fight Armored Core 6 Nightfall, but nobody in fiction acts like this is strange.
People who play games like Cyberpunk or BG3 expecting you to see EVERYTHING is purely irrational. The point of having all these events are so subsequent play through don't feel as samey. Youre not suppose to see every cool thing in one play through. I respect chat being in emote only during those games.
Because you simply can not SEE all, due to how the narrative events unfold. Otherwise, what would be the point of impactful decision making and the consequences of your actions?
yeah like, I disagree, FFXIV is social all the time if you want to be. not even talking about how the FC I'm in has events every day of the week like unsynced mount farm or maps, but also hunt trains, blue mage, instanced dungeons and raids, FATE parties, waiting for the snek to show up, that kind of thing. idling in any major city has the odds of some random talking or emoting at you (I once had a guy gift me 99 Craftsman's Tisane in Tuliyolal because I was doing a bunch of crafting by the marketboard, and no other reason), let alone the shout chat that is always going on. PF is always packed too.
I kinda hope FFxiv's new exploration zone does have more things for being social as Eureka during Endwalker was the most social stuff ive been in in the game. Rescuing people or telling people how to do stuff or find stuff. Being in the hunts community has also been great and social but man just hanging in Eureka was loads of fun
FF XIV is completely silent outside of novice chat, in my experience. In 3 thousand hours of playing, the only time I have ever typed in chat to someone was to ask/ answer questions in novice chat. Outside of the periods when I was in novice chat as a sprout and when I come back as a returner and am thrown in there, I have never seen or spoken to someone in game other than a quick gg or maybe answering a mechanic question in a raid. I genuinely forget there are other people on the other end of the screen sometimes and that they're not npcs. To what Woolie and Pat say about SF 6. I agree. The Battle Hub in SF 6 actually feels like there are actual people playing in it and talking to each other. It feels more like a hub than any of the main towns in FF 14 have ever felt for me personally.
Pat is nuts about people not talking in 14. Think that might be the recency bias of not being happy with 14, and trying the new stuff. People talk all the time, and I’ve had a myriad of questions answered through shout or even say chat. I’m genuinely surprised he sees it that way. I think it’s more so you get out of 14 what you put into it, socially. Your Data Center is a factor too.
I wish I didn't sound mopey about it but as a woman I've had the worst experience with MMOs as a girl, now as an adult woman discord + MMOs still sounds like an absolute nightmare, on top of people not communicating the way MMOs used to require for flawless cooperation. I'll just play my single players and envy your weekend hangouts from afar.
I can't help but think Pat is somewhat disingenuous about the chat in FF14. He's made it clear he mostly always spent his time playing it isolated with his friend group. I don't think he ever attempted to talk to people in the game outside of that group. So when he says it's dead and no one talks, I think it's more of him never seeking it out or acknowledging it. It probably happens, maybe not as often as a late 2000s MMO environment because that's his comparison and late 2000s MMO is a vastly different place than current MMO
Pat should visit some pirate servers of wow which (by nature of being smaller than the official) tend to feel like actual communities of people running around the game and talking to each other constantly, asking about quests, asking about directions in dungeouns, asking advice on their bubble pal build, begging for gold. The whole thing. Its actually feels alive, despite the reduced size.
Maybe Pat’a server is just different from mine but I see people talking in shout chat constantly whenever I go, not even in just cities but in a lot of the modern zones and especially in instances content. 🤔
I have the thing where I also hate playing games with random people on the internet it is one of the most miserable experiences for me, but I love collecting mounts and cosmetics, so I play MMo's as a collectaton and mute chat and block any player trying to talk to me.
Me doing ARR sightseeing, halfway down a cliff, realiing someone else is doing the same thing, sends Tell "this sure is silly isn't it" idk you can also just talk to people lol
On Mateus, people talk in shout chat in Ul’dah. That’s the only time I really see anyone chatting causally. Otherwise, we’re all in our communities on discord
People are constantly talking when im walking through areas of ffxiv, and every dungeon inlosd into people say hi and chat to each other, idk if pat is in a completely nonsocial server or what
Idk Pat, in ff14 yeah I'd see people quiet in the overworld for the most part. However, your experience (although not an unknown one for MMOs in gen) is not mine. In the overworld zones, I did on occasion run into randos and talk. Even join FCs from interactions like that. I'd even sometimes find chatty people in instance dungeons and raids. And that's just overworld interactions. In limsa, and other hubs, I'd always see people chatting in the open. Maybe switch servers lmao
Hell, I made a random new friend yesterday in final just by telling them I thought their character was cute. Which lead to us doing frontlines together, and then doing trial and normal raid. The social aspect is certainly there, in the three main cities mainly.
Pat clearly hasn't seen region chat since returning to Warframe. That place is unhinged. The amount of WTB GF chats is hilarious and the inevitable [kinetic siphon trap] ban
I recently got into wow with the new hardcore server and some of the best times ive had with it was meeting up with a random and he was role-playing as a troll the whole time.
Don't know about Rivals but in League you can totally coordinate with other palyers with just pings. If everyone has a certain level of skill you can pull off amazing plays.
I'd say some pings in rivals are even preferable to just saying "SPIDERMAN SOMEWHERE IN ANY 3D DIRECTION AROUND US" Because the ping actually shows him at the corner of your screen, highlights them and the ping highlight follows them for a bit (and also highlights the last place you saw them at)
I can't imagine the mental hell streamers go through from being badgered by chat, but I'll argue that if you pay attention to what is going on in most games you can manage to navigate the correct path. However, streaming is a career where people have decided to play games the absolutely worst way imaginable if they want to experience them as intended, so lol lmao.
God that sidequest annoys me so much. Sending Jackie to a trusted friend and doctor always felt like the natural thing to do to make the body more presentable before reaching his family and it took like my third playthrough before I found out there was a funeral quest I just kept skipping.
@@ironeleven Thank god I realized that funeral quest existed before knowing there's a- WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU ALLOWED TO TAKE JACKIE THERE, WHAT THE HELL-
You know you caught a golden goose of MMO social interactions, when you overhear some freaks having a debate away in the corner and like a dozen or so people just split from the crowd and go eavesdrop on their conversation.
Pfft, I did that all the time. You gotta make friends and duo with the competent healers and everything should be fine. Anyone can push buttons to do damage, but pulling, positioning and keeping people alive is relegated to the competent, which not many people are.
MMOs exist in 2 forms. They are either a jagged cliff you climb with random people and you build a level of attachment with or an elevator ride with strangers where no one talks or bonds. Pat says he wants the former not realizing he lacks the patience to actually climb the mountain. There is no middle ground MMO. You either take the climb which is the harder option but is better overall or you take the elevator which gets you there quicker but there isnt much of an experience. Like Classic WoW is all about the climb. Rewards suck most of the time, everything takes too long, and everyone around you is an asshole. But you are in it together so why not be social. Those edges got sanded off over time which made the experience not require socializing as much.
Piggybacking off of Pats comment on Discord blatantly ruining social aspects of online games; I find it especially frustrating for MMO-lite games like Warframe and The Division to have no in-game group finder to find people for harder content and just leave it to the larger community to make a whole separate discord server instead. Just fucking put the resources in to make an in-game group finder, holy shit. FFXIV did it and it was such a massive success that WoW ended up doing the same thing. I don't want to go outside of the game to find people to play with, man.
The whole time I was listening to this I was like "Oh course Woolie doesn't understand the social element of MMOs; he regularly has another person on the couch next to him, being social with him. He goes to events, he's an FCG man through and through. He has enough socialization in his life that he doesn't need the artificial additive of server chat." Glad they got there in the end.
33:20 Woolie remembering that he is a streamer and not actually "ignoring the social aspect of games".
I was waiting for this clip to see his face
This was one of the best parts. I think when Woolie was talking about chat rooms during games, someone in chat said "you mean like people who stream?", moments before Pat's response. : D
Seeing him take that critical hit is amazing.
...on top of being a Games Journalist no less
Woolie, MMO chats used to be like 3am gas station visits where 3 kids a crackhead and a underpaid employee would be arguing the most insane stuff while the sound of the hotdog roller's lightbulb was burning out in the background. it was absolutely nothing like a twitch chat screaming about missing out on content and ruining the experience. the chats were cringe stupid and annoying but old MMO chats were the best fuckin memories I've had in gaming, just a bunch of strangers sharing a moment. now the world is silent, I have no mouth and I must Quickplay
I still have one convo from over 10 years ago seared into my brain where I saw like 5 people debating if lesbian corn was gay or not. 3AM Ul'dah is something else man
@@dumbino7745 lesbian corn sounds delicious
@@dumbino7745 You can say porn in the TH-cam comments. Your mom won't punish you for it.
It's like you guys have never turned on the midnight radio and tv channels that played content that the FCC bans between the hours of 4am and 10pm
I was playing DC Online not long ago and while I’m doing solo stuff I’m just seeing this cesspit of an argument happening between some people in the chat log. No one I know uses actual voice chat in the game (no one I’ve seen) but boy do a select group of people like to have text arguments over an MMO
Honestly in ffxiv I feel like it's mostly get what you give. Like, if you start talking to people in a dungeon they're way more likely to actually engage and talk back.
Agreed, best part of old praetorium was goofing around with random peeps during cutscenes, which made it so much more bareable.
absolutely untrue and you are genuinely more likely to be told to stop talking by the fem aura larping dude
I think the main issue is overworld stuff though. When I'm out doing fates and completing MSQ, the map is like empty with no one talking. I'm not sure what the solution would be to have more players just be in the out in the overworld so you get more interaction like that. Maybe if the Aetherytes weren't a thing and people actually had to travel to different city hubs?
not to mention Pat's conjecture is leaking in yet again because FFXIV had novice chat.
@@Jstar300 that would have the opposite effect. People would get even more frustrated with how much longer it would take to get through MSQ that they would just quit the game entirely. I know I would.
"Do you wanna fuckin *cyber* in the middle of town with a cat boy?" you're REALLY dating yourself with that term, Pat.
a/s/l? 18/catboy/Limsa Lominsa, wanna cyber?
Pat not interacting to anyone in ffxiv
"Why is no one talking to me??"
He's just like me fr
“No one talked to me during Endwalker.” In an mmo where everyone was trying to get through the story finale before someone spoiled it in general chat. But also Pat being oblivious to people who chat AT ALL is wild but not unexpected because it’s Pat
I feel like Pat would’ve hand blinders on for people talking to him anyway, out of fear of being spoiled considering he was streaming
maybe being a "story mmo" is the problem then
@@kip_c the world may never know..
pats experience of only playing with and talking to the same 15 people over discord in FFXIV is catching up to him.
I disagree with Pat about people not talking in ffxiv. Im not in a free company and don't have any friends who play it so I'm always doing stuff with Randoms, and we'll talk to eachother and people can explain mechanics to first timers. You get what you put into it. If you only play with friends your not gonna have that experience.
As someone who very recently started ffxiv there's a good amount of talking in tbe chat
I'm on controller so I don't really participate as its very difficult to type but yeah
Yeah, Pat is once again conflating his personal experience with a universal one.
Yeah.
I can certainly understand saying FFXIV is around the quieter games chat-wise.
But there is ABSOLUTELY a lot of talking there.
In fact. I got the habbit of closing shout chat in expansion launch because people CAN'T SHUT UP! Risking spoilers
does anyone know what DC/world he's on? on Aether, say chat especially in limsa is pretty active.
@@creuller7166that’s definitely a factor too. I think it’s Primal, but I could be wrong
24:30 Woolie thinking he invented vote to kick and chat instantly roasting him
Bro has not played TF2
It's important to note how the age of social media has effectivelly disenchanted the appeal of the 2000's MMO general chat, or even guild chat. You're inundated with online communication with incredible ease, whereas back in the 2000's, you'd genuinely have to log in to the game to talk to most of your friends in guild chat.
That quality isn't as potent nowadays, hasn't been for over a decade.
This is the worst lie being spread by “modern mmo” platforms because a genuine ingame interaction will be 100x more memorable than any Twitter interaction by a landslide
@@kip_c It is more memorable, obviously, but it's crazy to say it's near as exceptional and cloistered into online games as it was 18 years ago. Back then, you'd interact with your friends in school through Windows Messenger, but the people you only knew in WoW only existed inside that guild-chat, or a forum site if someone made one. Nowadays, most guilds give you a Discord link along with your guild invite.
Global, area, party, guild chat. Ten, fifteen years ago the things I read and replied to on those tabs would instill in me emotions a discord channel could never.
Strangers in a strange place saying strange things as only strange friends could say. The familiarity of a found family forged fiercely from fraternity and folly. Cherished comerades and community intertwined by common purpose. Love, by what means what one could do without words.
I remember when every name was an opportunity, not common trivialities, not equals on a rat race, not a requirement to success but a brother or sister in arms.
I remember when we still sang.
Pat sounds like someone who never had to find a group to do dungeons for Blue Mage
Yikes that hurts on a personal level...
I almost gave up on the class because of that. 😂
I didn't I just had my friends help me
@@ReSF91 It will take a while but, the best time to try seemed to be when they announce a level increase for that job. A lot of people will be trying to level or get spells to be ready for the increase. When the increase happens, FATES are going to be swarmed with BLUs.
@@PatStaresAtholy shit, didn't think you watched podcast clips
@@PatStaresAt Dude.
Pat was not too long ago asking to be able to play FFXIV without people... he hated having to interact with other people... he said how he hated the talking in Eureka... that he wanted to play with bots!!
A lot of randoms I’ve had to deal with essentially we’re bots, not in final fantasy but you know
Exactly! I don’t know why he thinks folks in FFXIV aren’t talking all of a sudden!
Pretty sure at this point Pat is just trying to convince himself that FF14 is bad because he doesn't feel like playing it anymore.
Dude keeps finding caveats to keep his "14 isn't social actually" point alive but the closest to an actual point he gets to is that he wants more unhinged, "forced" interactions which is ... a very Pat point to make .
It's also pretty funny because he indirectly admits that he pretty much isolated himself into a single friend group for his 10 years of playing...
I guess he's blaming the game for not dragging him kicking and screaming into unhinged 3am novice network discussions ? Again, very Pat *shrug*
Its streamer mentality, they isolate themselves to try to sanitize their stream and then complain that they are isolated and no one interacts woth them
Pretty funny listening to saying that he enjoys having to interact with general chat and ask people to do things in MMOs , when past year he was complaining about having to do that in Eureka, in FFXIV.
Is general chat as rough as stream chat?
@@UCannotDefeatMyShmeatabsolutely not
It's really jarring when these two have the worst takes.
IN THIS CLIP:
Clown to Clown Communication.
Clown to Clown Conversation.
Weird, I've never been in online game and been like "You know what would make this better? An endless wall of people flaming each other in general chat" but that's just me
He's right in a sense but wrong in why that makes a game special. It's like when people talk about MW2 lobby voice chats. They were terrible things but they were our link to other people and just the fact we could talk to random people sometimes was important.
the feature is important not necessarily the culture.
10:40
If history is any indication, We can not Pat.
It happened already back in 2008, It was called Warhammer: Age of Reckoning.
Developed by well-respected indie MMO developer Mythic Entertainment.
Everyone who played it said it should be the next top MMO. It was developed for PvP first, then had the PvE content balanced around it, so PvP was actually a fun time for everyone.
You know what happened? People played it for maybe 2 months then abandoned it.
I was employed at the studio at the time of release. I got to see EA do what EA does firsthand when they push games before they are ready then merge studios.
The fastest way for your MMO to die is if PVP is a primary selling point. It's so bad that New World pivoted the entire core game away from it, making it instance only and no dropping loot on death.
Plus I mean Phantasy Star Online already proved fucking nobody wants to drop loot on death unless you can get it back so obscenely fast you defeat the purpose of losing it at all (high level RuneScape or trained Albion characters, hi).
what killed age of reckoning for me was when I realized that when I wanted to explore content in areas I out leveled, I was turned into a chicken and couldn't kill anything. removing the ability to clear old content was a major reason why it failed
Really bums me out, how AoR got treated. Came out and died out before my time and I never gelled with PvP in MMOs, but I mourn its passing nonetheless. Now I'm super invested in the Warhammer IPs, nearly two decades too late for it, and we're probably *never* going to see another Warhammer MMO. I know of Return of Reckoning, it's cool that their community seems to be going strong, but I couldn't get into it and bounced right off. What I wouldn't give for a not-shit modern Warhammer MMO in Current Year.
@@UltimaKeyMaster My friend got me to try Throne and Liberty (the other amazon MMO alongside New World) due to the really cool world building, and while I like the world and gameplay, and genuinely *want* to have more to do in it... It's *very much* a PVP first MMO, and falls into all of these issues, to the point that after about two months of playing off and on, I'm essentially dropping it except to hang out with that friend.
As soon as you finish the story (which is pretty short, even exploring all the areas and doing all the side quests doesn't stretch it much), there's basically nothing left to do. Everything late game PVE like dungeons and world bosses is for building up gear to do PVP, the dungeon chat is insanely toxic cause no one wants to do it and speedruns it, half the events might as well not exist because they're PVP and so basically only the biggest guilds get to use them and everyone else gets nuked.
So yeah, seconding this, seems like PVP-first is a death knell for any MMO, because it leaves PVE as an afterthought, and unless you're there *for* the PVP then you're just going to stop after a while, simply because there's nothing left for you to do. Sure it gives people who want that something to do, but it means anyone who isn't interested in PVP (which is going to be the majority of casual players) isn't going to stick around, and even if other parts are fun they're just going to run out of things to do or get driven away by the PVP-focused core of the playerbase.
The thing with undertale is like, its supposed to be a game that you get whatever ending you get, and then are presented with the option of "oh wait if i do this again can i let everyone live?" And that is a great experience! But everyone wants to watch someone get the good/correct ending which then comes out as "if you kill anyone youre playong the game wrong and youll be punished for it." This feeling is helped by the games good ending being "please dont play again and ruin our happiness ". even though the game doesn't get like upset at you for killing one monster, and in fact expects you to kill a few your first time, its a combo of fans connecting emotional wirh the message, plus not wanting your favorite streamer to miss out on the ending that caused the phenomenon that is undertale fandom.
Even though this means that there are a bunch of neutral endings and different branches based on who dies that most people whove played will never see
Pat talking about how no one talks to each other in FFXIV and I am reminded how the Novice Network on my server (mateus) isnt the same as other servers cause all the stuff he said he didnt see in FFXIV I see on the regular on my Novice Network .
Not to say he isnt completely wrong but I also recall it being more of a JP thing too where people talk in private convos as opposed to just open chat on the JP side. Western side does more stuff in open chat but he is right that it can be segmented a bit.
I really like FF14 in comparison to other MMOs that I bounced off of because of the limited social aspects. I have a limited social battery where after a certain point I really don't want to have to deal with talking to people. So an MMO where socializing is entirely optional but is there if you want it is perfect for me.
I'm glad there are still wikis being made. Those cases where it's Discord or nothing sucks.
The revelation about scrolling text on the side was great.
i gotta say, i disagree with pat here. just because he's gotten so used to ffxiv doesnt mean people arent social on it. i started as a new player 2/3 years ago, and there were many times where i wanted to know something or needed help and would just say it into the general chat and have at least one person respond. it was part of what endeared the game to me. now, if youre in an area that isnt as populated (especially by experienced players who have already cleared up to current content), like the ass end of coerthas western highlands for instance, your chances of getting random questions answered drops quite a bit, but set one food into ishgard and someone will likely respond. it's also worth noting that having a whole conversation in shout chat (the area-wide chat) is usually considered rude in ffxiv, but say chat (range limited) is more commonly used for local conversations, and tell (whisper to target) chat is where most 2-person conversations move to.
tldr: pat likely thinks this way because he hasnt actually had to ask questions in ffxiv for years, and has become so used to the game that he can just tune this kind of thing out. ffxiv chat is still social
yeah, taking into account the fact pat's 1) not needed something like novice network in years and 2) been doing content with a dedicated group of people for a long time, he probably hasn't had as many chances to run into friendly randos as the average solo player. it really doesn't feel that much less sociable than say, guild wars 2, outside of specifically the open world areas
Nope as someone who played thru xiv’s content solo recently there is almost ZERO social element to the game whatsoever
idk, I played ff14 and haven't encountered anything that i would call "classic mmo experience", where people just chat while playing the game. People either hyper focused on things they are doing or AFK. Frankly, i don't think i ever saw a person when i was doing my crafting jobs, like cutting trees or mining rocks. Everyone just in queues for instances most of the time.
@@kip_c Play Blue Mage, go through Bozja or Eureka, PF any current content, or do any Hunts.
Is it a workplace environment or a Cafe environment? Will asking questions get you answers? Will people bant some nonsense with you? Are people coming in hoping they don't have to interact with anyone else so they can get through their dailies smoothly or are they hoping that everything goes off the rails and someone yells if Stuart Little could beat Remy in a rat-cage fistfight?
Do people argue for Stuart Little, Remy, or leave so they can continue leveling alone?
I legit had no idea what Pat was talking about with FFXIV being quiet until I realized not everyone is in the novice network.
It’s like permanent Barrens chat without the slurs.
Its the Forum vs Discord question.
Lots of old heads here will know what its like but its not something so easily described. The very concept of "social" has changed, what we define it as is so vastly different from what it used to be.
A lot of discord groups I’ve had the displeasure of being invited to just read like forums from 2008, humor and all
Wow... 31:01 this is such a painfully good callback. And the fact that Pat grew enough as a person to bring it up himself without wild anxiety... Pat Growth Confirmed.
29:40 In a lot of online interactions people don't expect to ever see each other again, while in person its more probable you will. That change can shift the social dynamic a lot.
The Barrens chat was such an adventure. So many people in the Crossroads only for the chat.
Damn this hit the nail on the head for me. I used to play FF11 and getting a leveling party together felt so intimate. Even the etiquette between different parties to look out for each other if someone pulled a mob train to the zone entrance. I would spend whole play sessions just hanging out in Windurst, offering to help out new players, chatting it up while I helped boost them the first few levels or just protect them from stray mobs.
To have a social experience in an MMO you have to give them time to type. Modern WoW doesn't really give room to breathe when you're doing content, and even if you're leveling in quests the only breaks for being social are when you want to be a bit inefficient. So being social gets pushed over to "waiting for the queue to pop on my dungeon so I'm just running around the capital on my mount and reading Trade Chat." Classic has downtime all the time whether you're on your way somewhere or eating/drinking after a pull, so may as well talk in party/area chat.
Been playing Old School Runescape and the social aspect has shades of that until you get into a clan chat. Most people are zipping here and there on their individual tasks and can't stop to chat unless you're both grinding in the same spot and that doesn't need a lot of attention. Wintertodt comes to mind. But in a clan chat you can in a way get rid of "time waste" during dull combat, going from place to place, or just straight grinding a resource. You can do this a little in a WoW guild, but in most content you don't have that downtime I've found.
I agree with this. When I started trying to get back into MMOs somewhat recently I felt like I got a lot slower with typing because normally in other games you had pretty decent sized windows to text in the chat but it feels impossible to do so now. I only recently realized how nonstop they have become now. There just isn't much pause in what you're doing to make small talk to pass the time now. It's constant go go go which kills any real opportunity to talk.
Sometimes you might get lucky if you're looking for party members for something kind of specific, but that rarely happens too since there is usually some kind of system now to automatically find party members as well. I made a lot of friends back in the day from it being annoying to find party members and you being incentivized to add and make friends with good players so you naturally would just grow a bond with each other. Now no one really has to bother since you can just instantly gather a party with the click of a button. It ruins any forms of attachment and feels like you're playing with npcs a good chunk of the time now.
Speaking of Ragnarok Online the main chat channels on your average hacked server these days are severwide and there are always people chatting or looking for groups.
The social aspect difference between older mmo's like RO and PSO and newer ones is different. Hopefully future mmos can recapture that early 2000s feel
In FFXIV I think part of it is people who only sit in their FC house, only talking to their FC members. This lessens the pool of general chat people. Also, you don't have the experience of someone random running up to you in a main city and starting a convo, or emoting at you. It's a microcosm of current suburbanization, where people are isolated into small enclaves, and don't have 3rd places to be in or see others going about their day.
But also, rare is a general chat any good. Like, GW2 back in the day was pretty good, b/c you'd have big groups roaming around to farm events (like Hunt trains in FFXIV). But moderation and community reinforcement is needed; otherwise, it becomes a shithole of racism and harassment. This then leads people to just playing with people they know of Discord, leaving general chat to fester.
I've seen the old type general mmo chat in one place, and that's SW:TOR. Most worlds have people chatting, but the Dromund Kaas one (first dark side post-tutorial world) in infamous for a reason. You do unfortunately have to deal with the star wars fandom in their natural habitat however.
Absolutely disagree with Pat here when it comes to FFXIV. If you're talking about zones that you level out of and have no real reason to go back to once you're done there like overworld zones from old expansions, sure. But the three hub towns and the latest expansion's final hub absolutely have people standing around who are always more than happy to talk and hang out as far as I've seen.
Novice Network's always pretty full and chatty and helpful, if you ask around for Hunt linkshells they're always full and running and you'll be invited to them pretty quickly. It even has its own, more degenerate Barrens chat, which is Balmung and Mateus. Not the e-fucking part (though there is that), but people arguing and baiting people into being angry in /shout chat and also just being 4chan.
True that!
"SF6 Battlehub feels like an arcade"
And, my friends, is called player investment. And that is why the marketing is doing everything they can to keep them invested.
SF5 taught them that the hardcore competitive scene will always be there, the way they weren't there during SF3 era.
So they can be safely ignored, safe in the knowledge that they are crackheads addicted to the fighting game.
Now they can focus on attracting the casual bade5 who DON'T want to play the fighting, but still want the feeling of belonging.
Hence; Battlehub and all the cosmetics.
There we go, mystery solved.
clearly pat has never stood in the limsa lominsa lower decks for longer than two seconds
I’m saying!
I feel like pat is just falling out of love with xiv and looking for logical reasons here. There's hunt trains, DC linkshells, talks happening in the major cities all the time, gemstone grinding parties, etc. depending on the DC you can hit more players than your PC can render lol.
Most people who play xiv arent levelling or hanging around in old zones much outside gathering jobs. Xiv isn't really going to be a thing where you exit into outer gridania and ask for help, but it could be if you go back into the city proper. It is a very social game, but you have to opt into it.
yeah that's why it sucks
@@kip_c
I mean what's your suggestion, stop adding new zones? There's already hunt trains and gathering locations exclusive the older zones. Cities are incredibly populated. Is it literally people just want a Warframe global chat? If so, its a bit melodramatic reaction.
@@kip_cthat doesn’t make sense. You have to opt into being social if you want a social experience. How does that make it suck?
as someone who played gw2 for 7+ years now pat clearly hasnt been idle in lions arch for more than 10 minutes... that shit gets TOXIC sometimes in a hilarious way but often just in a Yikes Touch Grass way haha!! That city is kind of a hub and all sorts gather there
When I'm crafting in FFXIV it feels more fun to sit in town and watch chat roll by even if I don't interact with it
One Quick comment for Woolie at Pat regarding a vote kick (@25:00), It's Very Ontopic:
Modern WoW actually it and it's a MASSIVE problem because people are super anti social.
There is 0 communication and the one thing that is on people's brain is go fast.
So 99% of the time no one READS the vote kick reason, they will just instantly click on Yes.
New players tends to get kicked when they are more then 20 seconds behind, even tough they can 3 man the dungeon because it's meant for new players.
There is no voice chat in League of Legends, it's actually the one thing people who play ranked have been asking for years
This is the worst idea I've seen in the history of the internet. Yes. Give the slur-ridden community voice chat natively. What could go wrong?
there's party voice chat but that's not what Pat was thinking about.
The Discord discussion reminds me of how Xbox Live Parties messed up Chromehounds (iirc). In that game you could only communicate with teammates that were within a certain range of your commander unit, but having the team join an Xbox Party made that unit obsolete.
Nothing to do with your comment.But I fucking loved that game
older MMOs tend to be designed around the chatroom being the thing to interface with when waiting for cooldowns, and Less Relevant MMOs tend to not have people bringing their own parties into the experience, its Oldheads who'd chat with whoever. so its a number of things going on
Pat clearly hasn’t spent enough time in Limsa at any point past 8 pm
Oh my gosh watching the chat for cyberpunk has been a blast
9:43 HOLY SHIT I HAVE NOT HEARD THE TERM CYBER IN DECADES
I actually didn't give it a second thought when I heard it. Wow it really has been decades.
im me
I honestly dont understand where all the ffxiv doom and gloom is coming from? I just started playing like half a year ago, and have been having a blast.
Met some cool people, sometimes hop into extremes/savages with randos, chat with people during farms and trains. I get people fall out of love with things, or run out of content theyre excited about but... Isnt that just the release cycle?
I'm being honest about my curiousity here because i genuinly just dont feel the same way from personal experience.
Pat is burned out after 10 years playing nonstop. Which is a pretty long time.
Half of it is straight up "I no longer wish to play the game, so I must concoct a false reality in which the game was actually shit and I never liked it".
The other half is that 99% of his playtime in the game was specifically curated in order to AVOID the rest of the playerbase. And now the success in avoiding every single interaction with other players by playing exclusively with like 10 people over the course of a decade has meant that his entire impression of the game is based off of that and not the experience that EVERYBODY ELSE plays with.
@ Yeah I get that, I def also inadvertently do that with media I lose interest it (ie. fixating on the bad more than the good).
What I don't get is he literally was clowning people for trying to solo ffxiv and "never having a single meaningful or positive interaction with anyone else in the game" in prior podcasts so its just kinda comes across as circumstantially contradictory and weird to me
especially as someone who picked up that game *because* he had so much good to say about it (and I happen to be having a lot of fun with it right now)
@@AnBeiHuangyou’re not alone on that. I remember him specifically going hard on the idea of not being social on FFXIV being weird, both on his stream and on the podcast. I’ve heard him turn on things before, but this time has felt the weirdest considering his own worlds not too long ago, relatively.
The Barrens chat was great, ironically given the name, that thing was far from barren
Pat's experience and opinions on FFXIV's social aspects are so drastically different from mine and others that play the game, it's kind of crazy.
The weird thing is it didn’t feel like this was how he felt months ago.
@@TheShockVox I remember in another episode he talked about how a person was expected to talk with people and organise in a voice chat while not doing so was strange, and that alone seemed unusual to me
Crazy Talk one would say.
This might be the most normal title I've ever seen for one of these clips
while I partially agree with Pat that talking out in the world adding a new experience and connection, it's mixed. I've found a great friend group by finding someone in FFXIV who invited me to their discord, but I've also had a whole slew of slurs thrown my way when some weirdo finds out I'm gay. Mileage may vary depending on if you're part of a discriminated group
Feel this. Even with XIV’s reputation of being more queer friendly there are always scumbags out there to ruin your day. I’m glad I’ve got a friend group to play the game with already but it’s a shame that interacting with strangers in pretty much any online game is a roll of the dice for marginalized people. There’s definitely games I’ve wanted to play but don’t due to fear of discrimination. I guess tougher skin and all that but being queer has definitely impacted how I view certain games. I’m glad XIV at least has that queer presence, but not all games have that and it sucks.
You are not alone and deserve love / respect.
I'm someone who does a lot of party finder and open world content in ff14 like hunts and fates. If you want people to talk to you, in ff14 and in life, you need to be the one to actually initiate the conversation. Only talking to your buds through discord and free company chat while complaining the open world social space is dead is not really helping to foster the environment Pat wants.
This whole clip is 2 people in their self isolated ivory towers complaining that the peasantry does not talk to them
That Jesse impression was crazy
I do use Discord to talk to my friends in FFXIV, but because my FC isn't exclusively one group of friends, people chat around there pretty often. And in some servers, there's a TON of RP going on in the General chat, if that's your thing.
Honestly some of the most entertaining and memorable moments in all of my gaming experience have been those random encounters with ppl in MMOs. One of my favorite memories was just chilling out in a zone taking turns with randos to solo tough mobs. We barely spoke but it felt more raw and real than a lot of irl interactions I’ve had. There truly is something amazing about those passing strangers moments where you hang out with some people you just met for a few minutes or hours and then never see each other again.
After all these years, seeing Woolie take psyche damage still hits just right.
Most social online game I've ever played was GT Sport. That box of scrolling text full of e-thugs, wannabe racers and weirdos was the highlight of every track day session.
Recently for me it’s been V Rising. Unless you’re on a really popular Server seeing someone else is going to be fairly rare. Cooperation is so fluid that having someone just swoop in and help with a fight and then vanish into the night is magical. I was just recently building my castle up and I hear metal and explosions happening not far away, I decided to follow the sounds of combat and just see a swath of destruction and explosions happening in the nearby town. Only to find loot everywhere and what remained of what I assumed were the other players.
So it was like those freaks in gta v who text you in game with random shit talk?
I love multiplayer games, but mainly random matchmaking. I've met a lot of friends from just playing games with rando's. I really enjoy how chaotic it is sometimes, especially when you get a well coordinated team from a bunch of wacky weirdos who dont know each other. It definitely can be shitty though too.
How much of a freak am I that when I heard Pay say "Elden ring Nightfall", I hope and pray they have you fight Armored Core 6 Nightfall, but nobody in fiction acts like this is strange.
People who play games like Cyberpunk or BG3 expecting you to see EVERYTHING is purely irrational. The point of having all these events are so subsequent play through don't feel as samey. Youre not suppose to see every cool thing in one play through. I respect chat being in emote only during those games.
Because you simply can not SEE all, due to how the narrative events unfold.
Otherwise, what would be the point of impactful decision making and the consequences of your actions?
yeah like, I disagree, FFXIV is social all the time if you want to be. not even talking about how the FC I'm in has events every day of the week like unsynced mount farm or maps, but also hunt trains, blue mage, instanced dungeons and raids, FATE parties, waiting for the snek to show up, that kind of thing. idling in any major city has the odds of some random talking or emoting at you (I once had a guy gift me 99 Craftsman's Tisane in Tuliyolal because I was doing a bunch of crafting by the marketboard, and no other reason), let alone the shout chat that is always going on. PF is always packed too.
I kinda hope FFxiv's new exploration zone does have more things for being social as Eureka during Endwalker was the most social stuff ive been in in the game. Rescuing people or telling people how to do stuff or find stuff. Being in the hunts community has also been great and social but man just hanging in Eureka was loads of fun
The old school challenge really helped. Would be great if that became the default world content mode to some degree
FF XIV is completely silent outside of novice chat, in my experience. In 3 thousand hours of playing, the only time I have ever typed in chat to someone was to ask/ answer questions in novice chat. Outside of the periods when I was in novice chat as a sprout and when I come back as a returner and am thrown in there, I have never seen or spoken to someone in game other than a quick gg or maybe answering a mechanic question in a raid. I genuinely forget there are other people on the other end of the screen sometimes and that they're not npcs.
To what Woolie and Pat say about SF 6. I agree. The Battle Hub in SF 6 actually feels like there are actual people playing in it and talking to each other. It feels more like a hub than any of the main towns in FF 14 have ever felt for me personally.
What was your data server?
Pat is nuts about people not talking in 14. Think that might be the recency bias of not being happy with 14, and trying the new stuff. People talk all the time, and I’ve had a myriad of questions answered through shout or even say chat. I’m genuinely surprised he sees it that way. I think it’s more so you get out of 14 what you put into it, socially. Your Data Center is a factor too.
I wish I didn't sound mopey about it but as a woman I've had the worst experience with MMOs as a girl, now as an adult woman discord + MMOs still sounds like an absolute nightmare, on top of people not communicating the way MMOs used to require for flawless cooperation. I'll just play my single players and envy your weekend hangouts from afar.
I can't help but think Pat is somewhat disingenuous about the chat in FF14. He's made it clear he mostly always spent his time playing it isolated with his friend group. I don't think he ever attempted to talk to people in the game outside of that group. So when he says it's dead and no one talks, I think it's more of him never seeking it out or acknowledging it. It probably happens, maybe not as often as a late 2000s MMO environment because that's his comparison and late 2000s MMO is a vastly different place than current MMO
Pat just must have his in game chat window closed if he thinks no one is talking
Pat should visit some pirate servers of wow which (by nature of being smaller than the official) tend to feel like actual communities of people running around the game and talking to each other constantly, asking about quests, asking about directions in dungeouns, asking advice on their bubble pal build, begging for gold. The whole thing. Its actually feels alive, despite the reduced size.
Maybe Pat’a server is just different from mine but I see people talking in shout chat constantly whenever I go, not even in just cities but in a lot of the modern zones and especially in instances content. 🤔
Heard he is, or at the very least used to be, on Ultros. People definitely talk there. primal is a pretty social data center
everything Pat talked about MMOs on this one is the reason i left the North american servers in FF14. the EU servers are way less toxic.
I don’t know if you’d count Warframe as a MMO, but I remember the global chat on late nights before Destiny launched on the PS4. Miss those nights.
33 minutes in before they remember they are streamers that play live in front of audiences
I’m 27 and I’ve been gaming since I was like 5 and I just always hated gaming with other people lmao. It’s why I bounced so hard off of MMOs
A good coop game I can sit there but a coordinated planned out social event is just too much. I just wanna grill
I have the thing where I also hate playing games with random people on the internet it is one of the most miserable experiences for me, but I love collecting mounts and cosmetics, so I play MMo's as a collectaton and mute chat and block any player trying to talk to me.
Do You like narrative driven single player RPG? Just asking.
Me doing ARR sightseeing, halfway down a cliff, realiing someone else is doing the same thing, sends Tell "this sure is silly isn't it"
idk you can also just talk to people lol
25:04 As in a mechanic to vote who to remove forever? Like a MMO version of Town of Salem?
Yeah TF2 was the first instance i saw a game with a vote to kick feature
On Mateus, people talk in shout chat in Ul’dah. That’s the only time I really see anyone chatting causally. Otherwise, we’re all in our communities on discord
People are constantly talking when im walking through areas of ffxiv, and every dungeon inlosd into people say hi and chat to each other, idk if pat is in a completely nonsocial server or what
He seems to only engage with his friend group. Which is fine, but it’s weird to do that but then say folks don’t talk on Final.
Wait a second....did Woolie go grocery shopping with Jesse's flaming balls in the passenger seat? How did he run out of time hahaha?
Idk Pat, in ff14 yeah I'd see people quiet in the overworld for the most part. However, your experience (although not an unknown one for MMOs in gen) is not mine. In the overworld zones, I did on occasion run into randos and talk. Even join FCs from interactions like that. I'd even sometimes find chatty people in instance dungeons and raids.
And that's just overworld interactions. In limsa, and other hubs, I'd always see people chatting in the open. Maybe switch servers lmao
Hell, I made a random new friend yesterday in final just by telling them I thought their character was cute. Which lead to us doing frontlines together, and then doing trial and normal raid. The social aspect is certainly there, in the three main cities mainly.
I miss Barren's chat so much, it was so unhinged and we all contributed. Brothers and Sisters in Cringe.
Man, in enlisted your team is either amazing or so utterly brain dead that it feels like they’re bots (not the bot squad members, the whole team)
Chat bubbles would vastly improve the social experience for FF14
Does anyone know where Mankriks wife is at
Pat clearly hasn't seen region chat since returning to Warframe. That place is unhinged. The amount of WTB GF chats is hilarious and the inevitable [kinetic siphon trap] ban
How is the Warframe community?
Matt and Liam name dropped in this episode
who are these "other people" ?...
are these other people here in this room right now ??.......
im glad you're comenting again
I recently got into wow with the new hardcore server and some of the best times ive had with it was meeting up with a random and he was role-playing as a troll the whole time.
Crazy Talk activates again!
Don't know about Rivals but in League you can totally coordinate with other palyers with just pings. If everyone has a certain level of skill you can pull off amazing plays.
I'd say some pings in rivals are even preferable to just saying "SPIDERMAN SOMEWHERE IN ANY 3D DIRECTION AROUND US"
Because the ping actually shows him at the corner of your screen, highlights them and the ping highlight follows them for a bit (and also highlights the last place you saw them at)
I can't imagine the mental hell streamers go through from being badgered by chat, but I'll argue that if you pay attention to what is going on in most games you can manage to navigate the correct path. However, streaming is a career where people have decided to play games the absolutely worst way imaginable if they want to experience them as intended, so lol lmao.
WAIT, DID WOOLIE SEND HIS BEST FRIEND'S CORPSE TO A CHOP SHOP INSTEAD OF TO HIS FAMILY??
God that sidequest annoys me so much. Sending Jackie to a trusted friend and doctor always felt like the natural thing to do to make the body more presentable before reaching his family and it took like my third playthrough before I found out there was a funeral quest I just kept skipping.
@@ironeleven Thank god I realized that funeral quest existed before knowing there's a-
WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU ALLOWED TO TAKE JACKIE THERE, WHAT THE HELL-
I mean I did too, i figured that Arasakas might go after the body to the family which would mean they would get offed
You know you caught a golden goose of MMO social interactions, when you overhear some freaks having a debate away in the corner and like a dozen or so people just split from the crowd and go eavesdrop on their conversation.
unless if it's someone i know, i hate playing games with other people lol
IS shadow over mystara in sf6?? might be wprth my buy if so
I try to be the helpful guy in ESO. But I am a sadist who does PUGs as a Tank
Pfft, I did that all the time. You gotta make friends and duo with the competent healers and everything should be fine. Anyone can push buttons to do damage, but pulling, positioning and keeping people alive is relegated to the competent, which not many people are.
In this episode, I question whether Pat and Woolie have ever actually been on the Internet
MMOs exist in 2 forms. They are either a jagged cliff you climb with random people and you build a level of attachment with or an elevator ride with strangers where no one talks or bonds.
Pat says he wants the former not realizing he lacks the patience to actually climb the mountain. There is no middle ground MMO. You either take the climb which is the harder option but is better overall or you take the elevator which gets you there quicker but there isnt much of an experience.
Like Classic WoW is all about the climb. Rewards suck most of the time, everything takes too long, and everyone around you is an asshole. But you are in it together so why not be social. Those edges got sanded off over time which made the experience not require socializing as much.
Piggybacking off of Pats comment on Discord blatantly ruining social aspects of online games; I find it especially frustrating for MMO-lite games like Warframe and The Division to have no in-game group finder to find people for harder content and just leave it to the larger community to make a whole separate discord server instead.
Just fucking put the resources in to make an in-game group finder, holy shit. FFXIV did it and it was such a massive success that WoW ended up doing the same thing. I don't want to go outside of the game to find people to play with, man.
I'm that MMO player who basically doesn't say shit