Starting the right way with the measuring stick. Now to press on and make it happen. I still remember the best of the 2 pre-war MAC's I had (converted to tele's) at 52" wheelbase and 30 degree forks. Loving it so far, thanks Mike.
I had a Yamaha, with suspension that might have been described as a bit wooden, but not quite as much as the rear of that bike! Another great project gets under way. Thank you, Michael.
You will need one of those funny 'U' shaped kick start levers although they have a spline on them rather than a cotter pin....i'm getting into this build! Thanks.
Very interesting looking project, the C15 makes a very pretty looking trials bike. My own C15 is a Cafe Racer........it looks much faster than it is!!!!!
Hi Michael, Very exciting being at the start of a new project. I noticed on the rear chain that the "fish" is swimming the wrong way on the split link? Very clever thinking of raising the rear suspension to tuck in the front rake, brilliant! Roll on part two, Cheers Dave UK
Now the title excited me. I have a B25 starfire in bits in the garage but it came with a c15 engine. My plan is to rebuilt it in mild trials form so this will be an educational series
Brilliant, I'm doing the same myself, but was unsure whether to restore original or build a trails. My scenario was slightly easier choice as I have non matching engine and frame , ones a 64 the other a 65, no seat or lights or loom. I have the tank and oil tank and wheels although they're shot. Keep up the good work and excellent videos, I'll be following you all the way.
Wire nuts, in UK in the 40s they were used in domestic wiring, made from ceramic and called screwits, the internal thread was cast in the ceramic. Never used them only removed them during rewires! From an old electrician.
@@MURDOCK1500 Bodge? On a motorcycle or any other vehicle, yes. Wire nuts are intended to be used on exactly the “Mains Voltage” Peter mentions and only inside a terminal box in a dry environment. There are millions in use all over the US, I’ve never heard of a problem. BTW, my father was an electrician. I’m pretty sure I’d have heard if wire nuts ever caused a problem. When I bought my house many years ago I was replacing a worn wall outlet and found the previous owner (or somebody working for him) had used black electrical tape in a place where he should have used a wire nut. Of course, the tape had turned into a bunch of plastic ribbon and a bit of goo, the “hot” wires completely exposed. That is a bodge and a really scary one. I put a wire nut in with the new outlet.
@@petefletcher Many times I seen these used on 3/029 stranded cables for connecting lights in roof space voids i.e. 240v, they were made of white porcelain.
@@lexstockton2451 i'm an electrician and I can assure you they in no way can provide a proper electrical connection, both electrically and mechanically
No that won't work. The tops of British stanchions were tapered and pulled into a matching taper in the top yoke unlike the Japanese bikes for instance that use a clamp and pinch bolt. Enfield even went one step further and the stanchion was threaded and screwed into the top yoke.
@@BritanniaMotorcycles Hi Michael. Thank you for that explanation. You had explained that in a previous video, but I had forgotten. I really enjoy your builds but also the explanation and how you overcome problems. Keep up the great work! Regards, Rob
Nice project going to be a good one. And I say this not to critical I put the right foot rest in the same place your going to put it. Thinking that the reach for the shifter was no big deal. Well it was a problem and I kept catching my trousers on the kick start. The other thing the back off the seat. Your going to cut it . weld it. Bend it. And your going to be left with somthing called a Kickle
I think the reason there were a large and small nut / bolt on shocks was so the owner only needed two spanners not a pair. Did the shocks have to be undone to get the wheel out for roadside puncture repair?
A great start to the project, no matter what you do with it, restoration, trailie, trials cafe racer or whatever it will be another great series we can all learn from. I see you using combination spanners, it beats me why they don't make them instead of say 10 mm ringer and 10 mm open ender they're not 10-11, 11-10, 12-13, 13-12, 14-15, 15-14, 17-19, 19-17 etc other than they sell you 2 sets of spanners, there maybe another good reason but hell I can't think of it.
Michael I reckon it might be easier to alter the base than the the cover. also that way the cover will hide all the modifications, Just a suggestion I know it doesn't look the same on video than in the flesh I really enjoy your channel
C15 road bikes have different offsets in the top and bottom yokes - this makes the fork tube angle greater than the steering axis angle. I suppose this reduction in trail is useful in more modern trials sections?
Would it not be easier to cut a section from the middle of the sidepanel backplate and reweld , than it would to add a section into the sidepanel and then dealing with what looks like a set of compound curves for the new piece maybe ?
The rear wheel situation is maybe not as "rigid" as you think. It would be relatively easy to lenghten the swingarm. Flex it through, get a length of tube of the same diameter to place inbetween but also a longer piece that fits snugly inside (1 tot 2 inches longer at both side). After carefull rewelding the swing arm shoud actually be stronger then it was, thus accompanying the increased moment. Then you'll only need longer shocks to also lift the rear accordingly! That the chain will have to be longer is of course selfexplanatory. To me those teeth on the rear sprocket however look nackered! :-)
That still will not solve the problem of the chain line to wheel centre line which is why BSA moved the engine over by modifying the cast engine mountings.
@@BritanniaMotorcycles Ah yeah, I assumed that the pipes of the swingarm are parallel. Is that what you mean? That would indeed lead to further complications because one would have to compensate for that. One could however do that by carefully double bending the inset pipes so that the extensions run parallel. Easier said the done though! :-)
You could well be right. I did contact the seller but all he knew was that it came with pile of C15 parts. In hindsight i should have asked him to measure the mounting hole distance.
I did not see ist clearly, but perhaps the front oriented position of the right footrest ist in case of the clearance of the kickstart? Btw: I like your experimental setup for the driving geometry!
Bend the original kickstart to clear or buy an aftermarket trials kickstart. They used to be available but i want to see Michael Wrestle with the one he has 😀 If you look carefully the kickstart has an MCE logo, they were the company that bought out Wassell and are still in business today trading as Wassell.
Nice project looking fwd to seeing the series.. 're the battery side cover mod.. would it be less complex and less risk to cut and weld the back plate to align with the cover ?
Did you unfortunately manage to nick the swing arm bracket with the cut off wheel? Shame that, . Probably brought up with hack-saws not new fangled cut off discs, like me !
Hi. Very interesting video. I’m sure everyone has seen this other video on a similar bike. Search under ‘1961 BSA C15T @ Trail Version’ It’s put out by MotoSyndrome Area 755.
Hi . Re right side door peg . Would this not foul the kick starter , lovely bike had one back in the 70s. Thanks for the vid with no nonsense commentary. P sw uk
Just found your channel . Love every part . Thank you my evenings are loads better . In true fashion Yorkshire tea and a bacon butty and no disturbing me . Love the norton . And all the bikes thank for your clear info p sw uk - Devon
wow, small world. I hoped that was a Boro accent, I was born in the Boro , and live in Stockton, I've been a bike nut since I was a kid, I used to race a C15 on Redcar beach .about 7 years ago my Canadian cousin and I rode a Valkyrie and BMW from London Ontario to New York to pay our respects to ground zero and visit Billy Joel's bike museum
Yeah, 20" was common for some BSA dirt bikes of the period. I recall the B50MX I rode had one in 1972 or so, was working for a BSA dealer at that time. IIRC, B44 enduro models had an 18" rear and a 19" front.
The turn in speed is determined by the angle of the forks relative to the overall mass of the bike ie frame! And was the bench level [which is what you are using as a datum. Your whole calculation is very flawed😮
The best lesson in the effects of changing wheel size, shocks, tyres, forks etc on geometry I've seen, brilliant, thanks Michael.
Thank you Ade.
Starting the right way with the measuring stick. Now to press on and make it happen. I still remember the best of the 2 pre-war MAC's I had (converted to tele's) at 52" wheelbase and 30 degree forks. Loving it so far, thanks Mike.
Nice explanation of how your setting up the wheel base with the various angles of the forks, another build I'm looking forward to Michael 👍👍
I had a Yamaha, with suspension that might have been described as a bit wooden, but not quite as much as the rear of that bike!
Another great project gets under way. Thank you, Michael.
At last YT recommend something worth watching..😊🇬🇧
Good to see you Micheal ............beginning of a great build, thank you Sir
Like the look of the C15 engine, going to be a great looking bike.
It’s going to be a good one 👍🏻 Good luck with the build.
You will need one of those funny 'U' shaped kick start levers although they have a spline on them rather than a cotter pin....i'm getting into this build! Thanks.
Got one but it has a cotter bolt.
Fantastic work Michael. Really like your videos. Cheers.
Good to see the planning process. Most important part. Think first, cut later...
Good old inches. Love it!
Thanks Michael, enjoyed first video, looking forward to part 2
Catching up on this series. Nice project. You ended up with a D7 side panel by the look of it. Dean in Oxfordshire.
Very interesting looking project, the C15 makes a very pretty looking trials bike. My own C15 is a Cafe Racer........it looks much faster than it is!!!!!
Looking forward to seeing it come together.
Don’t think I could stop myself giving it a bit of a clean mind.😂
Hi Michael, Very exciting being at the start of a new project. I noticed on the rear chain that the "fish" is swimming the wrong way on the split link? Very clever thinking of raising the rear suspension to tuck in the front rake, brilliant! Roll on part two, Cheers Dave UK
Hi Michael,
Pleased to be at the beginning of a project... See you next week.
Take care
Paul,,
fish and chips for tea and a new project life is good.
Great stuff Michael, enjoyed part one, even the wife was fascinated by the geometry part 😁
This is gonna be a real tasty build Michael, thank you.
Now the title excited me. I have a B25 starfire in bits in the garage but it came with a c15 engine.
My plan is to rebuilt it in mild trials form so this will be an educational series
If this looks anything like the enfield its going to be a beaut
Brilliant, I'm doing the same myself, but was unsure whether to restore original or build a trails. My scenario was slightly easier choice as I have non matching engine and frame , ones a 64 the other a 65, no seat or lights or loom. I have the tank and oil tank and wheels although they're shot. Keep up the good work and excellent videos, I'll be following you all the way.
looking good mick.
Wire nuts, in UK in the 40s they were used in domestic wiring, made from ceramic and called screwits, the internal thread was cast in the ceramic. Never used them only removed them during rewires! From an old electrician.
In the UK we used to call those wire nuts 'Dog-Cocks"- proper name was Screwits I think :)
That's right, Screwits. Not allowed now for mains voltage.
They're just a bodge same has scotch locks
@@MURDOCK1500 Bodge? On a motorcycle or any other vehicle, yes. Wire nuts are intended to be used on exactly the “Mains Voltage” Peter mentions and only inside a terminal box in a dry environment. There are millions in use all over the US, I’ve never heard of a problem. BTW, my father was an electrician. I’m pretty sure I’d have heard if wire nuts ever caused a problem.
When I bought my house many years ago I was replacing a worn wall outlet and found the previous owner (or somebody working for him) had used black electrical tape in a place where he should have used a wire nut. Of course, the tape had turned into a bunch of plastic ribbon and a bit of goo, the “hot” wires completely exposed. That is a bodge and a really scary one. I put a wire nut in with the new outlet.
@@petefletcher Many times I seen these used on 3/029 stranded cables for connecting lights in roof space voids i.e. 240v, they were made of white porcelain.
@@lexstockton2451 i'm an electrician and I can assure you they in no way can provide a proper electrical connection, both electrically and mechanically
The C15 Trials did not have the frame extensions for pillion footrests. You could cut those off.
Also Michael you will need the sweeping kick starter which sweeps round the footrest.
Sorry, did you say "Fork Handle, Four Candle or Fork Angle"?
Hi, Michael. You could put the longer forks in and then have them a bit further up in the yokes. Love your work, by the way. Rob
No that won't work. The tops of British stanchions were tapered and pulled into a matching taper in the top yoke unlike the Japanese bikes for instance that use a clamp and pinch bolt. Enfield even went one step further and the stanchion was threaded and screwed into the top yoke.
@@BritanniaMotorcycles Hi Michael. Thank you for that explanation. You had explained that in a previous video, but I had forgotten. I really enjoy your builds but also the explanation and how you overcome problems. Keep up the great work! Regards, Rob
Nice project going to be a good one. And I say this not to critical I put the right foot rest in the same place your going to put it. Thinking that the reach for the shifter was no big deal. Well it was a problem and I kept catching my trousers on the kick start. The other thing the back off the seat. Your going to cut it . weld it. Bend it. And your going to be left with somthing called a Kickle
Would it not be easier to alter the tool box backing plate or maybe even make a new one.
Then the centre panel wouldn't match up.
could always try and find a later quick release hub.
not sure if it will help with the sizing though
Just sub.im lookin fwd to seen a master at work.
thanks AAA++++++
I think the reason there were a large and small nut / bolt on shocks was so the owner only needed two spanners not a pair. Did the shocks have to be undone to get the wheel out for roadside puncture repair?
A great start to the project, no matter what you do with it, restoration, trailie, trials cafe racer or whatever it will be another great series we can all learn from.
I see you using combination spanners, it beats me why they don't make them instead of say 10 mm ringer and 10 mm open ender they're not 10-11, 11-10, 12-13, 13-12, 14-15, 15-14, 17-19, 19-17 etc other than they sell you 2 sets of spanners, there maybe another good reason but hell I can't think of it.
Michael I reckon it might be easier to alter the base than the the cover. also that way the cover will hide all the modifications, Just a suggestion I know it doesn't look the same on video than in the flesh I really enjoy your channel
C15 road bikes have different offsets in the top and bottom yokes - this makes the fork tube angle greater than the steering axis angle. I suppose this reduction in trail is useful in more modern trials sections?
Would it not be easier to cut a section from the middle of the sidepanel backplate and reweld , than it would to add a section into the sidepanel and then dealing with what looks like a set of compound curves for the new piece maybe ?
It would be easier but then the centre panel would not match up.
Good name for bike C15 Kickle
The rear wheel situation is maybe not as "rigid" as you think. It would be relatively easy to lenghten the swingarm. Flex it through, get a length of tube of the same diameter to place inbetween but also a longer piece that fits snugly inside (1 tot 2 inches longer at both side). After carefull rewelding the swing arm shoud actually be stronger then it was, thus accompanying the increased moment. Then you'll only need longer shocks to also lift the rear accordingly! That the chain will have to be longer is of course selfexplanatory. To me those teeth on the rear sprocket however look nackered! :-)
That still will not solve the problem of the chain line to wheel centre line which is why BSA moved the engine over by modifying the cast engine mountings.
@@BritanniaMotorcycles Ah yeah, I assumed that the pipes of the swingarm are parallel. Is that what you mean? That would indeed lead to further complications because one would have to compensate for that. One could however do that by carefully double bending the inset pipes so that the extensions run parallel. Easier said the done though! :-)
The side panel you bought is probable off a D7 onwards Bsa Bantam.
You could well be right. I did contact the seller but all he knew was that it came with pile of C15 parts. In hindsight i should have asked him to measure the mounting hole distance.
Michael Waller It must be bantam in that case as they were the only other model fitted with that style side panel from 1965 bantam D7 onwards.
I did not see ist clearly, but perhaps the front oriented position of the right footrest ist in case of the clearance of the kickstart? Btw: I like your experimental setup for the driving geometry!
See next week about the kickstart.
How will you kick start it with the footrest on the righthand side where you intend to put it?
Bend the original kickstart to clear or buy an aftermarket trials kickstart. They used to be available but i want to see Michael Wrestle with the one he has 😀 If you look carefully the kickstart has an MCE logo, they were the company that bought out Wassell and are still in business today trading as Wassell.
Did anyone else notice the chain split link on the wrong way round ?
Nice project looking fwd to seeing the series.. 're the battery side cover mod.. would it be less complex and less risk to cut and weld the back plate to align with the cover ?
Easier yes but then the centre panel would not line up.
Did you unfortunately manage to nick the swing arm bracket with the cut off wheel? Shame that, . Probably brought up with hack-saws not new fangled cut off discs, like me !
Nothing a bit of weld and a file won't rectify.
Long as the braze filler in the joint stayes solid!!
Hi Micheal, the side panel that doesn’t fit looks like it’s from a 175 bantam.
Yes. I just answered Pre Malone82 who point3ed out the same thing.
Hi Mike, when you going to show us the yambaski poodle about so we can see and hear it please?
I rode it at the end of the final video of the project.
Michael Waller cheers, missed 29 for some reason sounds great!
four candles? NO - fork angles!
👍
Why not cut the mounting plate instead of the battery cover? Much easier to hide and make it look good.
The centre panel wouldn't match up then.
Hi. Very interesting video. I’m sure everyone has seen this other video on a similar bike. Search under ‘1961 BSA C15T @ Trail Version’
It’s put out by MotoSyndrome Area 755.
Hi . Re right side door peg . Would this not foul the kick starter , lovely bike had one back in the 70s. Thanks for the vid with no nonsense commentary. P sw uk
See next week.
Just found your channel . Love every part . Thank you my evenings are loads better . In true fashion Yorkshire tea and a bacon butty and no disturbing me . Love the norton . And all the bikes thank for your clear info p sw uk - Devon
We are keeping the ape hangers? not
Chain split link is on backwards
Just can't understand why you want to change those handle bars 😜
turn them old upside down to get that cafe racer "goldstar" look. OH ye
was the bsa with a distributor called the c15 star and b40 star ??
Yes the early models were the Star bikes.
look at the honda mt 50 tyre sizes.
hello Michael, I'm in the UK (North East), could I ask where you are from in UK, I am trying to place your accent, sorry its off topic,
I am a Boro boy born and bred.
wow, small world. I hoped that was a Boro accent, I was born in the Boro , and live in Stockton, I've been a bike nut since I was a kid, I used to race a C15 on Redcar beach .about 7 years ago my Canadian cousin and I rode a Valkyrie and BMW from London Ontario to New York to pay our respects to ground zero and visit Billy Joel's bike museum
if you mount your foot pegs there what about kickstart
See next week.
Twenty-one inches seems like an awfully big front wheel to me, but he's the boss.
Yeah, 20" was common for some BSA dirt bikes of the period. I recall the B50MX I rode had one in 1972 or so, was working for a BSA dealer at that time. IIRC, B44 enduro models had an 18" rear and a 19" front.
You can be bilingual, we don’t judge.
I'm sure you have thought about this one, but if you mount the footrest on the center stand lug how does the kick start work ?
See next week.
nooooooooooooo
Hi, side panel leave alone a just the inner, really
If I do that then the centre panel will not line up with both sides.
The turn in speed is determined by the angle of the forks relative to the overall mass of the bike ie frame! And was the bench level [which is what you are using as a datum. Your whole calculation is very flawed😮
Strange but it has worked for me for over fifty years. My trials bike work extremely well.
Fork Angle
Not a replica, a copy.