They're good in their own ways, trying to compare them is a disservice to both. One is a very personal story, the other is a grand epic to try and save man kind. One deals with talking to aliens, the other deals with alien planets. They're both sci-fi, but that's about it.
Movie-wise, Arrival intrigued me far more than Interstellar. I felt that parts of Interstellar were rushed through, while others spent too much time. The idea of extraterrestrial language and time-keeping just intrigued me so much.
@@Richard_Nickerson I totally get where you’re coming from on a scientific view, and can agree on that. For me, however, from a storytelling perspective, the pacing is a bit too choppy.
@@Richard_Nickerson It was rushed in the wrong places. One example from the top of my head: When they return from the first planet, the guy they left behind just tells them matter of factly that 20 years have passed. He was completely on his own, for. 20. years. And it doesn't seem to have had much of an impact on him. Or rather, we really can't tell because we didn't really know him that well beforehand. So this 20 year thing, that really felt rushed to me and thus lacked the punch I'd say it should have had. The movie then takes a lot of time showing his protagonist going through the motions as he watches the video clips from his family. But I still feel that aspect was handled rather poorly and too quickly.
your description of children of time was so compelling that i actually never finished this video. i stopped partway through, frantically searched for the book, and started reading it that day. anyway, i just came back to say that you were so right. incredible recommendation.
There's also the issue of disgust from the spiders' POV. For a creature with an exoskeleton, we are creatures who have their guts hanging on the exterior, bound only by a thin membrane.
No, Tim. Everyone knows that Aliens look just like us and have the same internal organs as us, that can breathe our air and digest our food. Except somehow when sunlight touches them they gain the ability to fly and shoot lasers out of their eyes.
“Project Hail Mary” by Andy Weir provides a very interesting account of how two beings with vastly differing biologies and modes of communication overcome the compatibility problem to become collaborators. Highly recommend it, if you enjoyed Children of Time.
Oh, I need to read this. That was actually my first thought: "Well, that sounds solvable. That's a communication problem, not a fundamental existence problem." My second was "Why don't more people try to solve these problems by applying critical thought and analysis?" In a sense, though, I am biased in a specific sense. The so-called compatibility problem just seems like a logical extension of... Well, simple existence as a neurodivergent human such as myself. It's a problem some of us have to navigate, and are pressured to be the ones to solve despite having fewer numbers and resources than the rest of society, every day of our lives. So to me it seems obvious that the problem is solvable. It's been necessary to solve it to survive. Partly as a result, partly as a prior cause of that difference... I have no problems conceiving of octopuses or spiders or ravens or dolphins as people given the simple knowledge that they think - never have. I don't have a sense of Us or Them, so it's all just cognition to me.
I like project Hail Mary but I feel like it just glosses over the fact that aliens might completely have ENTIRELY different senses we can’t comprehend, like the spiders not having a sense of sound in this video. In project Hail Mary, the only reason rocky and the main guy can communicate is because they both have a sense of hearing, and a somewhat compatible sense of “sight” even though Rocky’s functions differently. The only part in the book that really gets at the compatibility problem is when rocky learns about what radiation is, considering his species doesn’t have eyes and doesn’t really know what light or electromagnetism fully is
As some one diagnosed with autism at an early age, I have felt exactly the same as you have described. That I had to learn to bridge the communication gap with aliens because my own kind and even to an extent my own FAMILY were alien to me. So the idea that it is an immense gulf that can never be crossed is laughable. Will it be difficult, yes, but human beings are good at doing the impossible. That’s what makes us mighty.
Project Hail Mary offers the only right solution to the compatibility problem. Not because it worked but what the characters did: You have to try. And if it doesn't works, try again
Whoever hasn't read Tchaikowsky - absolutely do it! I've never read anything quite like it. The storytelling and pacing might be a little weird, but still not that off from the content, I don't think. It didn't feel 'wrong,' if that makes sense, it was just weird. Other than that, one of the most intriguing reads ever!
Wait? Empathy for spiders is the ultimate empathy challenge? Challenge completed than! I had a little tiny jumping spider living on my desk for like 2 months. I named him Theodore Jenkins Bartholomew III and one day I came home and he was curled up on the end of my desk. I was a little sad but I picked him up and put him in the ash tray and cremated him. A proper warrior's burial. You killed so many annoying bugs for me TJ. Rest in peace.
@@OokileyGMR Maybe. The roaches in my apartment building have virtually disappeared compared to before I found TJ. Though the likelihood that he's the one killing them seems low. But yeah. I basically don't kill spiders knowingly anymore. I used to be terrified of them.
Okay but seriously- this book made me genuinely like spiders. Jumping spiders in particular! I seriously can’t even begin to explain what an incredible, sad and DEEPLY empathetic novel it is
Arrival is one of my favorite movies from the past decade. When I watched it I literally just sat pondering every bit of the complexity for about 15 minutes. The real strength of the movie is that my pondering wasn’t just intellectual but emotional as well, which is so superbly in line with the theme of the movie since emotion is such an inherent part of communication.
I consider “annihilation” as a third favorite along with those 2 films. For me it sits pretty close in the middle of a interstellar and arrival. Difference from those films tho is that it deals with how the human environment can become completely alien, no communication or explanation as to why it’s there or if it’s even an alien at all. Interstellar didn’t quite have aliens, more like future humans that might as well be aliens that we never see. And Arrival is just another “first contact” but done as rogue like
I went and watched arrival when it came out as a kid and I was already a science nerd but that movie probably solidified my love of science. I spent days with the adults in the group talking about it and trying to understand it
Blindsight by Peter Watts is a first contact story of sorts. The ship the main characters encounter is so incredibly alien that they have a hard time even identifying what the intelligent life is.
And it's also sort of spiderlike. An interesting idea is that the premise of this video could be applied there too. Humanity (and a vampire) deem the alien life form as not having consciousness, being hyper intelligent but more hive mind than self aware, but what if that was just our perception from our very limited understanding of consciousness? The alien(s) there could have just had a kind of consciousness that we can't even begin to recognize let alone understand. Another is Project Hail Mary, where the alien is described as.... you guessed it, spiderlike. It explores the communication issue far less and even ends up making the 2 characters "fluent" at understanding each other, but I thought it was a neat idea to make their primary means of communication the same as ours, sound and noises, but in such a completely different way than we use our sound. And of course, how their lack of vision affects stuff like tone and meaning behind the words themselves, since we rely so much on body language to communicate in addition to sound.
One time on lsd I thought the compound itself was somehow an alien and the psychedelic experience was an interaction with it. What we experience is the best way we can comprehend it. I'm not saying it's true, but it was interesting to think about for a while.
Arrival is probably the best Scifi movie from the last decade for me, except maybe Blade Runner 2049. It really fascinated me. The premise of alien life we can't communicate with was an interesting element of the 1972 novel Stalker by Arcadi and Boris Strougatski, and it opened my eyes to this compatibility problem. Your video really hooked me on trying to read Children of Time, even tho I'm not an avid reader. Very good video overall.
@@diehard7517 Ho, I was misguided by the French title, that use Stalker as the title and the picnic bit as the "subtitle" ("Stalker : pique-nique au bord du chemin"). I was pretty sure I read it in english and the title was still Stalker, but I can't find my book, so I might just be mistaken.
I always felt if there were aliens here, we would never even know it. They would be so advanced, we wouldn’t be able to detect them much like a colony of ants can’t detect humans watching them. Imagine that alien trying to communicate to us in vain similar to we as humans trying to communicate to ants with math or music.
The problem with this is that evolutionarily speaking ants are every bit as sophisticated as we are. They havent developed the intelligence or technology that we have but they have different tools that in many ways are superior. Climate change probably wont do much to ant populations around the world and there is no doubt in my mind that they will be here long after we have disappeared. They use simpler more durable tools to solve the problems they encounter. Ants dont notice us because in general they cant eat us but in places where they can eat us its a bad day if they notice you. So we are more advanced technologically sure but more advanced? I dont think so.
@@FemFridge Not necessarily. We can only detect things that emit, or reflect various forms of radiation and frequencies. If they don't, or only do it in a very limited manner, they'd be virtually undetectable. Considering the level of technology it would take to get a "giant spaceship" here from over who knows where, it's not far fetched to imagine them also being able to mask themselves in various ways. Space is HUGE, even if we only think of the general surroundings of our planet. Anything that's cold, dark and quiet may as well be cosmic background And that's just taking the most basic stuff we can already deal with ourselves into consideration. Gets a lot funnier if we add some more "exotic" and/or hypothetical things into the equation. Like shaping gravity and space, or being able to access other dimensions than the three/four we are directly familiar with.
Interstellar has given away its potential as a serious scifi movie by explaining everything with love at the end. Arrival on the other hand has mentioned so many aspects of possible problems about communication with life from another planet in such a genious way, that in my opinion, its one of the top 3 Sci Fi movies currently.
@@squidwardstesticles5914 And Anne Hathaway's character. She was super annoying because she was only there to cry and give pretentious speeches about love being the solution to every problem.
I got this book on audible because you had mentioned it half a year ago. As an arachnophobic, I approve this message. It started as a “let’s see how this goes” to me actively rooting for them and feeling sad if they died.
Though, I have to say. The 2nd one scarred me. I can’t hear “we’re going on an adventure” without a slight shudder now. Can’t wait for the 3rd book. Already preordered.
Hello Future Me really thinks Arrival is a good Film, huh? Ignoring how badly written it is? Bad to a point they messed-up the central Concept of the Time-Language?
Same! IRL I have a negative reaction to spiders but this book really challenged my knee jerk reaction to them. I never thought I would root for the spiders!
It was quite an experience feeling genuine, close to equal, fear and sadness for both the lives of the spiders and the humans. I have a whole new respect for the term “life is precious”
I didn't read the book so I'm probably just missing something. But they couldn't figure out that she needed food and water? They were so advanced but they couldn't even do that?
@@suzannah991 They did. Those were given as examples of basic signs that were able to recognize, but as sentience is so much more a continuum on their world than on ours, that wasn't sufficient evidence of real sapience.
@@StrategicGamesEtc Oh, I understand. I guess it's hard to summarize an idea like that in a couple sentences, but you did a good job. I should probably just read the book lol
To anyone who hasnt read or listened to children of time: I can't reccomend it enough Its a truly fascinating work of art in terms of sci-fi and odd-ball story ideas. Great stuff.
I'd really really like to correct him that spiders are arachnids and not insects but now I am afraid that he will come to my house and replace my arms with test... tentacles.
the compatibility problem is fascinating, and the novel you discussed preserves it by having the "aliens" as bioengineered by a human. A real alien species smart enough to contact us over interstellar distances (who we're assuming are at least as smart as us or smarter and would think about the same problems as us and maybe more, otherwise they couldn't send their message almost by definition) would probably use math to communicate. They will probably have different senses and biochemistry, probably some exotic technology too, but math almost certainly works the same no matter where you go.
I am ready to bet that any means by which alien beings could communicate, it wouldn't be impossible for us to decode it given enough effort. We have discovered fishes that talked through electric signals underwater, for example.
@@xXx_Regulus_xXx You can do that on earth, just play around in group theory for a few minutes, you will quickly learn that, under certain circumstances 2 + 2 = 1, or perhaps 0. The most common example is in computers dealing with eight bit integers, 127 + 1 = -128.
@@martygentillon2786 That doesn't change math or how it works, it's a limitation brought by the medium not the concept. You would need a part of the universe that breaks the concept.
Communication might be very difficult for both species. It may require ingenuity and the use of senses we don't normally use for communication. But to say that communication would be impossible, kinda spits in the face of human ingenuity. New languages can be created. Devices can be made to pick up on things we ourselves cannot. As long as we are capable of interacting with each other, or at the very least, sensing that they are there, communication is possible.
The fact that we know how spiders communicate does rather suggest that there's not a lot of reason why we wouldn't be able to find a way to do it ourselves. It might be a lot harder for the spiders, lacking knowledge of primate communication, but this is really an excellent test of true intelligence.
No. It's an expression of human arrogance. There's also the issue of concepts and ideas and how the alien can have radically different ideas we humans have no direct comparison for. It exist even in languages where certain languages have ideas that are lost in translation. Where one language has no word for the idea found in another language.
For real that feeling of “creepy crawlies” is the whole basis of my fear of spiders and a few other bugs. Logically I don’t hate them or think they shouldn’t exist or whatever but as soon as I see them move all logical thought leaves me. So excited to read this book! It sounds so good!
It's actually kind of funny, I used to not like spiders myself. But I volunteered at a nature center and got to hold "Fluffy", a tarantula, which completely changed my perspective forever. She wasn't some terrifying, evil thing. She was gentle, docile, calm. Fragile, even. I was told if I dropped her, she could shatter. She was a rose-haired tarantula. That's what changed my perspective forever. The willingness to overcome my initial fear, and see her as the beautiful animal she really is. Which then applied to all spiders. Now? I adore spiders.
This. This is what youtube was made for. I miss having videos of people recommending and talking about what they are passionate about and opening my mind to new ideas being suggested to me on a regular basis. I *LOVE* this video! Keep it up! ❤️
Wow. Thank you Tim. This might be the most eye opening thing I've ever listened to. I have extreme arachnaphobia. I covered my screen as soon as I heard the word "spider" because even pictures and drawings are unbearable to me, and I'm sweating as I'm writing this. It's as bad as it gets. But the concept of a highly evolved spider civilization, twinned with a human idea of what is deserving of empathy and understanding, that is a very interesting take. A truly original science fiction story. One day I will be brave enough to do exposure therapy, in the meantime I'm going to read this book.
That sounds similar to my impression. My arachnophobia isnt debilitating, but still a noticeable problem. I needed to look away for most of this video. Which is unfortunate, since conceptually, I find them to be fascinating and environmentally important creatures. I just cant quite get past that instinctive discomfort and stress yet. I do have some exposure therapy, having to continuously catch and evict spiders from the clinic where I work. 😄 Unlike my landlady, I cant bring myself to kill them, just for my own benefit. I figure this novel could also be a good read on a therapeutic level. And the premise sounds really cool.
@@Wavemaninawe Yeah thankfully most spiders do not trigger the reaction for me. It's specifically tarantulas, and any spider that resembles that. Small house spiders aren't too bad.
I used to have arachnophobia, it can be a challenge to get through, but is well worth it for the almost... enlightenment? on the other side. Jumping spiders and googly-eyed Ogre faced spider are some of the first to make me realize these wonderful creatures have so much more to them than the fear I always attributed to them. Of course, most spiders still scare me, but I can hold jumping spiders now :) Good luck on your journey
I asked for Children of Time as a Christmas gift because of this video, and I adore it. Thank you for spreading awareness about this wonder of science fiction, Tim!
I bought the book long ago, discovered it's about spider racism, and just completely forgot about it. Your explanation makes it sound like exactly the read I've been craving recently. Gonna give it another shot next week!
wouldn't the intelligent spiders figure out the human is a living organism and it needs food and water to survive, I'm sure the spiders would figure it out no?
@@marcosmos7478they do but at the same time from their POV they eat liquids and also may have a different kind of metabolism. Something that eats solid food and doesn’t pre digest food may seem weird to them.
Dude legit bought all his books after your video on ancient civilizations, also maybe is just me having a monki brain but I totally missed the fact that the humans and spiders could not communicate with one another and when they meet the chapter ends and I was left with a feeling of "yay now they talk and we all gucci" but son when the next chapter began and the spiders describe how the "creature" was mute my entire body went numb for like 5 minutes
Thanks again for recommending Children of TIme and Adrian Tchaikovsky in general with the first video on this btw! Instantly became one of my favorite books as well, maybe even #1! Have been thinking about it a lot since reading it.
If Children of Time blows your mind that way, I bet most of the works of Stanisław Lem will even more. Especially, probably most recognised his work - "Solaris" and of course - "His Master's Voice". Here he describes countless possibilities of our incapability to communicate with Aliens. Also worth noting are "Lymphater's Formula", "Eden" and "Fiasco". I really can't recommend these emough.
I ordered this book from my local bookstore because of this video. I am afraid of spiders, but do try to take them outside rather than kill them (in most cases). I remember one time I saw a spider in my car hiding in the crevices of my rubber mat. When I tried to move it to a tree, it clinged to the mat, and I imagined the fear this spider must feel seeing me, and wondering if it was hiding (which would imply hope of not being found). I still wonder if spiders are even sentient (capable of even having experiences); if their tiny bundles of neurons are capable of fear and hope. Just in case they can suffer, I do try to send then outside rather than kill them.
spiders are pretty fucking smart actually, like they do really well with the space their noggins give them. Emotion wise though, they work off a different set of chemicals, so their fear, stress, and joy may very well feel different from ours. Pain is universal though, everything that moves feels pain, and some things that don't.
@Machine Elf on a shelf The interpretation has been questioned because what they discovered, data-wise, is that spiders interact with and adapt to their environment in ways that resemble sentience. There are fungi and plants that do the same thing, but it would be very hard to believe that they are sentient, that is, fresh lettuce likely doesn't feel pain when you eat it. What people are remarkably good at, though, is projecting humanity on to other things. We anthropomorphize roombas, clouds, the sun, the ocean. I think we would be hard press to find life on another planet we don't consider to be intelligent in some way. We also have a remarkable capacity for empathy (which you wouldn't know given everything we hear about humans), but yeah we actually do empathize with tons of creatures and try to understand what they think, which isn't true of any other animals we know of.
@@km1dash6 Thing is,whenever the conversation of sentience is brought up,somehow humans always "pass the test",worms posses a nervous system have,self-preservation,they adapt to their enviroment,from a deterministic standpoint you can make the argument that all of human reason is deriven from those basic principles just in a more complex form. Do all humans posses sentience?If we were to included extreme examples most definitely not,at which point does the cognitively most gifted orangutan become more "human" as we like to call it then another actual human. All I am saying is that things may not seems as set in stone just becauce we lack empirical evidence for now,after all there is always a hint of pride in being special and that could be a hard pill to swallow.
out of all the tests ive read/seen jumping spiders seem to be the most sentient or at least the most similar to sentient with wolf spiders coming in 2nd
Regarding the humans not seeing others as human, I really love how "A Memory Called Empire" shows both the insider and outsider perspective. The second book, "A Desolation Called Peace" goes deeper into the idea of aliens so alien, we can't even. I can only recommend the series, they are even a little bit shorter than Children of Time.
Arrival did a better job of exploring the compatibility problem, but Interstellar portrayed the unforgiving and complex physics of the universe that we have such little comprehension of. Both fascinating movies, love them both. Imagination precedes human progress, and we're lucky as a species to have it.
i haven't seen arrival, but the ending of interstellar kinda messed up my perception of the physics. Nolan has often been criticized for his movies being too "distant", and here, i feel that nolan's attempt kinda failed. idk i just didn't like the ending. granted, i see why he did it, but it just kinda fell flat for me.
Have you ever thought of doing a video about time skips? A scene chapter or episode ends only to pick up days weeks or years later? The do's and don'ts and breakdown of that would be really cool
To me the incompatibility problem seems like a tool to logically narrow what questions/answers we can look for in alien species. Just keep methodically analyzing potential similarity onto next similarity onto next similarity: do we see differently, do we hear differently, do we look differently, do we touch differently. Until you find common ground. The best examples of this exist on our own world with us trying to communicate/understand dolphins, chimpanzees, or dogs. Stark differences in communication ability, and perhaps not directly equatable to the compatibility we are discussing. However the incompatibilty problem in regards to intelligent alien life provides the solution in and of itself. 'Intelligent' alien life, and while they may be different in all manner of ways we can share universal concepts such as logic. Because we can assume their intelligence and their interaction with the universe it gives us fundamental common ground, letting us test for sentience. We already define intelligent life by such tests on whether it can recognize things categorically or define differences in shapes. Our basis for intelligence has to be reasonable given. Otherwise, were we to alter our definition ahead to widen our scope for intelligent consideration, turning back we may find trees are now sentient. We are already incompatible, that's what makes them alien, but I don't think it is a problem.
Thank you. We _do_ have a common language- the laws of physics. We might portray them completely differently, but the fundamental rules by which the world works are the same.
I think the fallacy is assuming all intelligence is the same. We _assume_ that despite being spiders and communicating differently, that they must be intelligent in a similar way. "Surely, on the inside, they're using language and math and logic, like us." That in itself is an assumption. They might _think_ in an entirely different way. Say dolphins became more evolved and we tried to communicate with them. Would imagery even work? Showing them dots or hand gestures that are supposed to convey math? Or would they just see us as threatening, like how a cuttlefish flashes dots and images to confuse its prey? In the same way humans have a bias for looking for intelligent life, the aliens have their own biases too. They might only be looking for intelligent life like themselves too. That's the problem.
@@bugjams Testing for intelligence is at best making a valid educated guess, and at worse labeling the unknowable. And better still what we are really testing with is sentience. A calculator is intelligent but I don't believe it is sentient. A crab is sentient but not intelligent. There is a sentient intelligent threshold somewhere. To even begin to search for intelligent life I believe assuming intelligence is necessary. We have no way currently of scanning something and deriving it's IQ. Being able to calculate the number of neurons, total biomass, and brain-body proportions seems helpful and works well enough for a guess at the intelligence of things related to us. Yet there is something more to it. If I built a mechanical brain an exact perfect functional copy of mine with cogs replacing synapses and oil replacing water. If I turned it on... would it think? Maybe? We have no way to scan or know. It cannot interact with it's environment sufficiently for us to test anything. Scanning it will show us complexity but if that counts as intelligence then any sufficiently complex thing would be intelligent too. A metropolis has complexity, a tree's roots have complexity: it feels unintuitive to call them sentient, let alone intelligent. I don't think we'll ever be able to look at something and KNOW that it is sentient. I believe that logic would apply to alien brains that have no similarity to our own, we can just never know of the inner intelligence of things in the first place. Therefore we can't really declare something intelligent if it doesn't interact with it's environment. We need to find intelligence in what things do. Can the lifeform in front of me count, can it abstract numbers from imperfect physical examples. Two oranges apart, two oranges touching, two oranges squished together, two oranges split into three slices, two oranges blended. When does two oranges become one? Can it show me the answer, in any form? Thanks for reading, hope my point got across. Sorry it got philosophical :)
@@vod1165 No that's a really good point and it brings us to a conclusion that many people find too horrifying to consider for long. The thing about a city or forest being sentient I mean. Look at us. "One" human is actually trillions of living cells. Each cell is not sentient. And yet together, the whole thing forms a cohesive being capable of thinking. So I think, yes, if you could build a massive mechanical brain of cogs, water, and oil, that it would be able to think somehow. Likewise, our language limits us with words like, "one animal, trillions of cells, etc." We could compare humans in a city to cells in an animal. The city is alive in a way. It can intake resources, produce waste, even replicate itself. It can make decisions to adapt to its environment. A person in a city is very much like a cell in an animal. Therefore, using words like "one, animal, etc" is limiting. How can we define "one animal" when thinking like this? A cell is part of a human which is part of a city which is part of an entire world. Therefore calling a human "one living thing" is over-simplifying. Not only is the human made of many things, but it is simultaneously part of a much larger living organism. Now imagine an alien race that's all a hive-mind, like bees or ants. Through this lens, communicating with it would require a very different kind of thinking. Would we refer to the whole race as one being? Even if each member of the organism was dumber than us, what if the entire collective was smarter? We'd need to find a way to communicate on a massive scale. Likewise, imagine a very small animal like a moss or fungi-like alien that, collectively, builds a very intelligent forest-sized animal that communicates through spores or something, over the span of decades. Or don't imagine it, because ecosystems like this already exist on our own planet! It's a terrifying thought experiment because it can make one feel very small and insignificant. But at the same time, it's so cool to think that we're made of trillions of non-sentient parts yet somehow conscious. And thought experiments like these may help us communicate not just with aliens someday, but with other lifeforms on Earth! At the very least, it's good material for sci-fi writers. I know the "hive-mind alien" thing is a bit cliché at this point, but I think done right, it can still be amazing.
I found it interesting in this video you used mostly jumping spiders which have the largest eyes of any spider that we know of making them naturally more endearing to humans. I just thought that was an interesting point. Very good video loved it
Had you asked me what I thought of spiders two years ago, I'd have given the knee-jerk reaction of "creepy". Now, after looking after tarantulas for 2 years and keeping my own for nearly as long, I find their movements beautiful and I could sit all day watching my little pets move around their enclosure or grooming themselves after eating. They're beautiful, and I'm so glad my perception has changed. Still scared of them, but intrigued and awe-inspired too.
personally I would have described them as cool, but then again you'd have to push the years back a few more before I find them weird. for the most part I was "meh" cause I rarely ever saw them in the first place. but after watching spiders I find them pretty neat
Yeah that's probably the main reason any real encounter with aliens would go badly for us. Knee-jerk reactions and xenophobia are kind of humanity's specialty. Most people lack critical thinking or the ability to plan beyond the next couple weeks of their lives
@@bugjams the worst part is that the aliens could be the same exact way.. WHICH is why WE need to jump FIRST! GET'M BEFORE THEY CAN GET US! WE CAN'T LET THEM KILL US OFF!! TO WAR!!!
Super interesting to hear about aliens especially for someone like me who wants to be an Astro biologist. You also have some interesting discussions about prejudices. I'm definitely going to read Children of Time.
...Hello Future Me really thinks Arrival is a good Film, huh? Ignoring how badly written it is? Bad to a point they messed-up the central Concept of the Time-Language?
Though I never hated spiders, that book seriously changed my outlooks and made me so much more curious about them. Especialy jumping spiders and the odd way they do things. I feel so protective over then now😆
Just what I was commenting. I have never read Solaris (only watched Tarkovsky's adaptation) but I loved Fiasco, it is thematically clear but long I discussed with my friend what actually transpired in there.
Arrival is far better in my opinion. Also my name is Matthew and I was adding children of time to my reading list right when you said “you’re going to read this, Matthew” 11:08
Another fellow Matthew here, I recently got Children of Time and am actively reading it. I had to quadruple check the audio at 11:08 to make sure it wasn't a glitch in the system lol
Children of time is a fantastic book, so much underrated. I had a hard time getting started the first time I read it, but when I got hooked, I couldn't let it go ! Truly among the most thought-provoking sci-fi out there, along with Greg Evan "Diaspora"
To date Diaspora is still my favorite sci fi book of all time, even more so than the three body problem series. I really want to check children of time out!
And you're so right about what you said at 8:40 - 9:20, not just in the book but in real life. It's very easy to be afraid of spiders and insects but the easiest cure is just to spend time around them, actually watching them and trying to understand them without panicking or looking away or trying to kill them. The fear is just from a lack of familiarity and understanding. I used to be afraid of bugs too but by interacting with them enough eventually I got over it and actually started really liking them and being able to handle them and keep them as pets. So many of them have a very unique beauty, even some of the "creepier" ones, in their own way. It's fascinating how they move like little armoured robots.
That's so true. I learned to be afraid of insects, as pretty much everyone I guess, but then I studied them and now I'm a professional beekeeper and I have difficulties understanding people's scared reaction to a bee or even a wasp, when I'm so much around them.
@@EmelieWaldken definitely. I think we aren't born with the fear of insects and little kids usually don't mind them, its something were taught and can unlearn just as easily. I can't imagine someone being afraid of a jumping spider or a honey bee anymore unless they're allergic. It just seems absurd once you see through the conditioned fear, these are animals so small and fragile you could end their life without a second thought, whats there to be afraid of?
@@soasertsus I'm not sure, I was literally terrified of many insects when I was little (especially grasshoppers, these were my nightmares made flesh ^^). No one ever taught me that, my mother is actually a spider-loving and in general nature-loving person, she really tried to teach me, but I couldn't help it.
Never understood being scared of spiders. They are just another animal, like every other on this planet. I really cannot relate on any emotional level to that. In most place they cannot even do anything to you. But then again, people are always for no reason scared of so many stupid things.
I used to live in a particular place in WV where there were quite a lot of small black and white jumping spiders. These were curious little things and virtually fearless. Now every morning I'd sit on my porch have a coffee and a smoke. I'd see these nearly impossibility fast littlespiders. And pretty much everyday they seemed to get a little closer to the point where theyd sit on the chair and do a little spider dance. One day I noticed it wasn't random spiders. It was one particular little black jumping spider who had decided that he wanted to be friends. So I named it Pete. And in the spring of 2018 I saw Pete every morning. They are smarter than we give them credit for. I miss you Pete the jumping spider. 🕷
Stanislaw Lem used this communication problem as a plot device in several of his books too. His Master’s Voice is the classic example of the compatibility problem.
This video encouraged me to get my book club to read this book and everyone loved it and usually we talk about the book of the month for about 45 minutes and then we change topics. This time we talked about the book for 1.5 hours, there's so much to discuss about it! Thanks for the recommendation, I also told them all to check out your channel😊
I love Arrival, I can’t watch it without crying. It makes me happy and sad and wistful for something I can’t put into words. It is definitely my favorite sifi movie, and it has an amazing soundtrack.
i’m literally adding it rn to my cart, you did such a great job making me interested, the interview with the author and everything! i’m finishing the southern reach trilogy and i’ll jump right into children of time
Oh nice, Southern reach! The second book was a bit of a slog for me, but the mystery of the first and the horror of the third really make it special. 😊
Okay. You hooked me in. I downloaded the audio book of Children of Time. I can't remember the last time I listened to fiction, and I've never been into sci fi, but you made it sound so cool I had to try it. I was blown away by how great it was, and have just started the second book in the series. Thank you so much for the introduction.
I 100% agree that Children of Time/Ruin were the best sci-fi I have read in a LONG time (40 years) and got me out of Netflix and back to reading again! Great video. Thanks.
It's funny that this came up. One of my favourite scenes in star trek was when Troi tries to explain the differences in language in Ensigns of Command. I also like that scene in Arrival where trying to ask a question and how difficult it is. I've always loved the ideas of communication.
I am insanely scared of spiders, in fact, If I wasn't sick today, this video alone would keep me up all night. I have once stayed up for 3 days straight because there was a spider in my room. During those same three days, I moved my bed from the wall to the center of my room in hopes to avoid further spiders..I know, that wouldn't have done anything. I'm terrified or spiders But This has convinced me to read this book I am so intrigued. My mother has promised me a kindel for Christmas so I will be downloading that along with many others.
I think about Arrival all the time. It changed my perspective on life. Sounds cliche to say a piece of art moved me in that way, but it did. And made it's way in my top 5 after the first watch. Interstellar is great, too. Just on a different level.
I'm the same way. Arrival moved me in a way sticks with me to this day. It's so hard to put into words but I love what it has to say about life, love, and the mysteries of the universe.
I've had this book on the back burner for quite a while now, but with your renewed seal of approval, I think I am now actually gonna take the time to read it!
Here's something interesting, I actually downloaded the audible version of this book after it only looking at the stars, never even glancing at the reviews or reading the description. It was recommended to me and I was more inexperienced at selecting titles. Audible said it was more of what I liked so I picked it. I have severe arachnophobia. I managed to make it about halfway into the book I think... I read all the way to the part where the human got captured by spiders and they attempted to use their fingers to do the dance to beg for food and water. And then I turned it off because I was so distressed that I couldn't continue the book. If the author had used any other alien entity I think I would have been fine but choosing something that people have irrational and uncontrollable fears made it inaccessible for me even though I was absolutely enthralled by the type of book and the message it was seeking explore. Intellectually, I understand that the vast majority of spiders can't hurt me, and that in the area of the country I live in there are only two'sh that could ever do serious harm to me. But that's why it's called irrational fear. I can't control how my nervous system reacts to being next to a spider. My brain can try to think its way out of fear all it wants. But, my body locks up and my brain shuts down.
You may be interested in the sequel then. The spiders are still present in the story, but the main focus is on a new species of uplifted animals; octopi! Also rather than being a direct sequel, it is more like another story set in the same world a century or so after the events of Children of Time wrapped up, so you can jump in without missing too much
You may want to look into desensitization therapy to help mitigate that. It seems like you have a pretty extreme form of arachnophobia, and it could really help you a lot. It's definitely helped a lot of people. I'm a mild arachnophobe myself, although it's become somewhat less over time.
OKAY I'M SOLD I WILL READ THAT BOOK IT SOUNDS AWESOME I used to be SO scared of spiders, but a friend helped me overcome that by teaching me about their biology, species, habits, etc. I'm not super comfy with the big ones and will never be, but I'm not phobic anymore and actively protect these fascinating animals from the humans who want to kill them on sight.
I've read the book. Its one of the best I've ever read. As you said the parallel about the rise of spider civilization and the decay of human one overboard Gilgemesh is written so well. I also love the way how he follows the descendants of one spider over thousands of years of their society's evolution. The innovations and technological advancements the spider society makes over the years is just pure creative genius. I wish more and more people read this book. Like you I am frustrated too that none of my friends read it.
Interstellar and Arrival both have their good and bad points. It really depends on my mood. Right now, I think Arrival is better, mostly for the whole language and time aspect, a month ago I thought Interstellar was better lol. Seriously that wave scene scared the crap out of me, which led to me having a better idea of what actually terrifies me and why. Good stuff all around.
Well ofcourse scientists don't assume we will have 'compatible' languages; hence why we use patterns based on physical constants of the universe wherever possible. Pretty hard to have a technological civilization capable of receiving our signals without understanding Pi or at least a rudimentary understanding of atomic structure; for example.
Happy to hear that you share my enthusiams for children of time. I'm a very slow reader, yet I read this book in 4-5 days, and I'm often thinking of Children of time as a milestone for what science fiction can be.
Watched this video. Went and bought it on Audible. First book I've tried reading in a long time. 15 hours later and I just finished it. Awesome book and kinda reignited my love of reading. Thanks mate 👍
Kudos!! All the books you mentioned are not only fantastic reads they also really push you to think in different perspectives. While these books are sci-fi stories the concepts they force you to consider will leave a lasting impact on how you the world. I can completely relate to you on having no one to discuss these books with. I can’t manage to convince people to give them a try.
even with spiders, we have a LOT in common with them. We share the impulses to eat, we share the impulse for replication, mating, killing, self protection, survival. We solve life's problems in different ways but we tackle the same problems nonetheless. We both battle entropy and evolved bodily systems that preserve a homeostasis. What if there are beings who don't share even those most basic needs? What if there are beings that are completely atemporal, don't need to replicate, don't need to be bound by a single perspective, don't need to be bound by a self and have no need for even self preservation, that exist outside entropy altogether. How would they think, and make decisions, if at all? What would even be life's problems for beings like this to solve? what would be their basic needs, what would constitute archetypes for them There's a Jacques Lacan quote that goes by ''All sorts of things in this world behave like mirrors''. I love to think about, what if there is something that inherently doesn't, and we can't make it in anyway relatable to us, for which empathy is by some fundamental cause, impossible. I guess that's kinda what lovecraftian horror is for, now that i think about it
If there are beings like that, do we care about it? Or differently- if we have no way to measure what they do (laws of physics here) or interact with them, then why bother even thinking about it? Our known universe has rules. We don't know all the rules, and we're kinda bad at applying those that we do know, but there are rules. Presumably any alien we encounter would work within those same rules, so chances are whatever they do we can at least have sensors that detect itm
@@Olivia-Wi mean, if the question is “why think about -anything” the answer will always be “because its fun” and even in pursuing a vain idea in the shower we can incidentally find some useful thoughts here and there
I have arachnophobia. The random spider images just made my skin crawl, and the idea of being captured by smart spiders made me want to die. Oh my god. I might read the ones with octopuses though, but I don't appreciate the idea of having my arms replaced with testicles, thank you.
The formics in the movie and the book 'Ender's Game" used telepathy through computer games to communicate with Ender Wiggins. Interesting subject. Thanks for sharing your idea.
I liked Arrival more, that to me is peak scifi movie. And this book series is amazing! I loved Children of Time and dove straight into Children of Ruin and "we're going on an adventure" now literally raises the hairs on my arms but the book is so good! I can't wait to dig I to the latest book over the holidays.
I read this book and as someone terrified but spiders, I loved it. I really need to read the rest of the series. Children of Time though was one of the best novels I've read in years in any genre.
Oh, you HAVE to read "Blindsight" by Peter Watts. It was my first introduction to truly alien, well, aliens. And Watts dives deep into the biology and linguistic problems of it all. Plus a lot of sentience =/= intelligence and intelligence =/= sentience. The scramblers are the most unique aliens I've read, though I'm definitely going to check out this series!
OK now I’m positive my devices are spying on me (not really) I just finished Children of Memory last night and woke up to this video on my feed. I thoroughly enjoyed the series and plan to read more Tchaikovsky. Definitely Arrival. I really like Interstellar, but I have a degree in linguistics. I love Star Trek, but the idea of a universal translator always seemed impossible. Dharmok is one of my favorite episodes as it shows the difficulty in understanding another culture even if you know the words. Arrival shows how difficult it will be to interact with aliens, though I’m sure reality will be far harder, perhaps impossible. I’ve been trying to get my husband to read Children of Time even though he is terrified of spiders. It’s made it to his TBR shelf so hopefully soon.
A Deepness in the Sky by Venor Vinge also features a Spider Civilisation, but highly anthropomorphised by the human translators. It also (but more briefly) goes into the compatibility problem here!
I love how many sci-fi/worldbuilding channels pimp this book. It's excellent and I love that I discovered it all them years ago. I understand the third book is close, and I'm so hyped for it. edit: never mind, looks like it IS out. Couldn't find it in shop when I looked the other day, lol
I was about to message and ask if there is a sequel about octopuses ( I love and am so fascinated by them), and then you answered my question and have me sold on this series!
I've had a lifelong phobia of spiders... And dammit, now I'm going to be adding this to my reading list! Thought I'd want to read it for the incomparability angles, but I'm now morbidly curious to see how an arachnid civilization evolves
I actually bought and read Children of Time after watching this video. He isn’t messing around. It’s by far the most intriguing story I’ve come across in a long time. Highly recommended! And it’s on Audible!
I full throat second that! Easily one of the top 5 books I’ve ever read. I felt like a different, better person for reading it and I cried A LOT lol (and, of course, I like spiders now)
This is kind of done in "The Kraken Wakes" by John Wyndham. There is an alien invasion, except it takes several years for anyone to realize due to a combination of the ships landing in large bodies of water, and people being, well, people and in denial. The aliens may have stayed in the oceans peacefully, except for actions taken by humans that, from an alien perspective, looked (and kind of were) extremely hostile.
I share your passion for Children of Time. I read it a few years back and found every concept fascinating. I've read a fair few of his books now, he has a unique way of seeing things that scratches that itch just right! Am waiting on book 3 of The Final Architecture.
I hadn't heard of that book, but it's on my list now! Random coincidence: just last night my wife and I were talking about whether humanity was truly ready for first contact, and my negative thought experiment was "If an alien crash landed here, and had the misfortune to look like a giant spider, how many people would on this planet would actually try and communicate with it, as opposed to immediately trying to kill it?" I suspect it would be a vanishingly small percentage of the population.
This video was crazy interesting, but as someone who is absolutely terrified of spiders it was really hard to watch. After the first clip of the tarantula I literally yelped and almost panicked, then I just put my phone face down and listened to the rest of the video lol Edit: Also, I’m adding the book to my reading list! It sounds really cool and to someone like me will probably feel like a thriller lmao
It will help with arachnophobia. Jumping spiders are pretty different to ye olde tarantula though; they seem to be able to solve somewhat complex problems far above what their tiny brains should be able to. I'm betting computer scientists will learn some amazing hacks from their species. Maybe you'll even want a pet jumping spider after reading.. they're one of the most amazing animals on Earth.
The best cure for arachnophobia is exposure. I used to be afraid of spiders too, now I can hold them casually and intentionally catch jumping spiders outside when I see them to bring into my home for pest control. You just have to spend time watching them without giving in to the panic and pulling away, the longer you just observe them and start to understand them, the less scary they seem. Jumping spiders especially, if you look into their eyes it's hard not to feel some spark of recognition, like they are looking back at you. They feel very thoughtful in their own way, more like looking into the eyes of a mammal than a bug. Same with mantids. I guarantee those guys are a lot more complex than we give them credit for.
This is one of the greatest books of all time , in my humble opinion. Thank you for the announcements of the third book’s release! I am currently reading a small handful of books, including the epic billion-paged Insomnia, but…. Sorry to the small handful of books, y’all are getting put down because Children of Memory just came out.
Arrival is better because it avoids some Hollywood clichés about what “saving the world” and first contact look like. It's not about sacrifice like Interstellar (and many others), it's about communication and understanding otherness. I'm biased cause I'm a linguist though haha
Thanks for recommending this! Between you and others on TH-cam, this book surfaced to my wishlist, then audible, then I couldn’t put it down and read it in 24 hours. The end was completely satisfying, delivering on all fronts.
Another book (and film) that deals with this topic is 'Solaris' by Stanisław Lem. Very interesting book. Lem as an author has written some amazing books in, but not limited to, science fiction. For a lighter read I really enjoy his short stories 'The Star Diaries'. Hope that this is helpfull for someone 🙂!
Dude I was watching on my tv and had to look this video up on my phone to check the comments to make sure I wasn’t trippin. I was already abt to download the book but now I have to.
Dude I’m at work rn and it caught me waaaaaay off guard. This is the first video of yours I’ve watched so there’s an extra level of serendipity. I’m buying the book lol
This seems like a really cool video but my phobia with spiders is making it really hard to enjoy; Super cool concept though! the imagery of the "subject" needing to mimmik how spiders comunicate is honestly terrifying; as with the concept in general.
Interstellar or Arrival?
~ Tim
Embassytown
Annihilation
@@alexowo8408 Annihilation +1
They're good in their own ways, trying to compare them is a disservice to both.
One is a very personal story, the other is a grand epic to try and save man kind. One deals with talking to aliens, the other deals with alien planets.
They're both sci-fi, but that's about it.
I think I'd go with Arrival, but I love them both (and Annihilation too)
Hearing "you're going to read this Matthew" really sold me and equally freaked me out but you got me. Thank you.
Same here. I went from conspiracy mode, to religious mode, then to just realizing he chose a random name
😂😂😂😂
Got me too. Got me good.
John Oliver did this joke but in terms of calling out potheads 😂
Okay but did you read it???
Movie-wise, Arrival intrigued me far more than Interstellar. I felt that parts of Interstellar were rushed through, while others spent too much time. The idea of extraterrestrial language and time-keeping just intrigued me so much.
Yet doesn't the fact that some parts feel rushed and some take too much time fit in with the movie itself?
@@Richard_Nickerson I totally get where you’re coming from on a scientific view, and can agree on that. For me, however, from a storytelling perspective, the pacing is a bit too choppy.
@@Richard_Nickerson It was rushed in the wrong places.
One example from the top of my head: When they return from the first planet, the guy they left behind just tells them matter of factly that 20 years have passed. He was completely on his own, for. 20. years. And it doesn't seem to have had much of an impact on him. Or rather, we really can't tell because we didn't really know him that well beforehand. So this 20 year thing, that really felt rushed to me and thus lacked the punch I'd say it should have had.
The movie then takes a lot of time showing his protagonist going through the motions as he watches the video clips from his family. But I still feel that aspect was handled rather poorly and too quickly.
@@k.h.nelson5816
Oh I'm just playing devil's advocate. I haven't even seen it.
@@lonestarr1490
I have no horse in this race, I was merely having fun with the correlation between the complaint and the motif.
your description of children of time was so compelling that i actually never finished this video. i stopped partway through, frantically searched for the book, and started reading it that day. anyway, i just came back to say that you were so right. incredible recommendation.
Took me a while longer, but same, I came back to finish the video because what an amazing book it was, it is really really worth the recommendation.
There's also the issue of disgust from the spiders' POV. For a creature with an exoskeleton, we are creatures who have their guts hanging on the exterior, bound only by a thin membrane.
Right back at em dirty bastards 😂
No, Tim. Everyone knows that Aliens look just like us and have the same internal organs as us, that can breathe our air and digest our food.
Except somehow when sunlight touches them they gain the ability to fly and shoot lasers out of their eyes.
Only a yellow sun
Doesn't he know that aliens only look like green humans with forehead ridges and maybe some sort of horn or tentacle
And some of them have pointy ears
Or they were just given compound v
@@metumortis6323 They obviously have antennae that connect to the internet
“Project Hail Mary” by Andy Weir provides a very interesting account of how two beings with vastly differing biologies and modes of communication overcome the compatibility problem to become collaborators. Highly recommend it, if you enjoyed Children of Time.
I loved loved loved loved project hail mary. Children of ruin, the sequel to children of time, is similarly outstanding
Oh, I need to read this. That was actually my first thought: "Well, that sounds solvable. That's a communication problem, not a fundamental existence problem." My second was "Why don't more people try to solve these problems by applying critical thought and analysis?"
In a sense, though, I am biased in a specific sense. The so-called compatibility problem just seems like a logical extension of... Well, simple existence as a neurodivergent human such as myself. It's a problem some of us have to navigate, and are pressured to be the ones to solve despite having fewer numbers and resources than the rest of society, every day of our lives. So to me it seems obvious that the problem is solvable. It's been necessary to solve it to survive.
Partly as a result, partly as a prior cause of that difference... I have no problems conceiving of octopuses or spiders or ravens or dolphins as people given the simple knowledge that they think - never have. I don't have a sense of Us or Them, so it's all just cognition to me.
I like project Hail Mary but I feel like it just glosses over the fact that aliens might completely have ENTIRELY different senses we can’t comprehend, like the spiders not having a sense of sound in this video. In project Hail Mary, the only reason rocky and the main guy can communicate is because they both have a sense of hearing, and a somewhat compatible sense of “sight” even though Rocky’s functions differently. The only part in the book that really gets at the compatibility problem is when rocky learns about what radiation is, considering his species doesn’t have eyes and doesn’t really know what light or electromagnetism fully is
As some one diagnosed with autism at an early age, I have felt exactly the same as you have described. That I had to learn to bridge the communication gap with aliens because my own kind and even to an extent my own FAMILY were alien to me. So the idea that it is an immense gulf that can never be crossed is laughable. Will it be difficult, yes, but human beings are good at doing the impossible. That’s what makes us mighty.
Project Hail Mary offers the only right solution to the compatibility problem. Not because it worked but what the characters did: You have to try. And if it doesn't works, try again
Whoever hasn't read Tchaikowsky - absolutely do it! I've never read anything quite like it. The storytelling and pacing might be a little weird, but still not that off from the content, I don't think. It didn't feel 'wrong,' if that makes sense, it was just weird. Other than that, one of the most intriguing reads ever!
Wait? Empathy for spiders is the ultimate empathy challenge? Challenge completed than!
I had a little tiny jumping spider living on my desk for like 2 months. I named him Theodore Jenkins Bartholomew III and one day I came home and he was curled up on the end of my desk. I was a little sad but I picked him up and put him in the ash tray and cremated him. A proper warrior's burial. You killed so many annoying bugs for me TJ. Rest in peace.
This is adorable and bittersweet! Rest In Peace, TJ!
Maybe Theodore didn't die but simply molted and what you cremated was his dead skin.
@@OokileyGMR Maybe. The roaches in my apartment building have virtually disappeared compared to before I found TJ.
Though the likelihood that he's the one killing them seems low.
But yeah. I basically don't kill spiders knowingly anymore. I used to be terrified of them.
I always let the wolf spiders that come on my porch build their home/web uninterrupted. They deserve a life just as much as any other living critter!
Okay but seriously- this book made me genuinely like spiders. Jumping spiders in particular! I seriously can’t even begin to explain what an incredible, sad and DEEPLY empathetic novel it is
Arrival is one of my favorite movies from the past decade. When I watched it I literally just sat pondering every bit of the complexity for about 15 minutes. The real strength of the movie is that my pondering wasn’t just intellectual but emotional as well, which is so superbly in line with the theme of the movie since emotion is such an inherent part of communication.
For real! I love that movie and surprised not many know about it
I consider “annihilation” as a third favorite along with those 2 films. For me it sits pretty close in the middle of a interstellar and arrival. Difference from those films tho is that it deals with how the human environment can become completely alien, no communication or explanation as to why it’s there or if it’s even an alien at all. Interstellar didn’t quite have aliens, more like future humans that might as well be aliens that we never see. And Arrival is just another “first contact” but done as rogue like
@@Seifer1228 So true!
Agreed
I went and watched arrival when it came out as a kid and I was already a science nerd but that movie probably solidified my love of science. I spent days with the adults in the group talking about it and trying to understand it
Blindsight by Peter Watts is a first contact story of sorts. The ship the main characters encounter is so incredibly alien that they have a hard time even identifying what the intelligent life is.
And it's also sort of spiderlike. An interesting idea is that the premise of this video could be applied there too. Humanity (and a vampire) deem the alien life form as not having consciousness, being hyper intelligent but more hive mind than self aware, but what if that was just our perception from our very limited understanding of consciousness? The alien(s) there could have just had a kind of consciousness that we can't even begin to recognize let alone understand.
Another is Project Hail Mary, where the alien is described as.... you guessed it, spiderlike. It explores the communication issue far less and even ends up making the 2 characters "fluent" at understanding each other, but I thought it was a neat idea to make their primary means of communication the same as ours, sound and noises, but in such a completely different way than we use our sound. And of course, how their lack of vision affects stuff like tone and meaning behind the words themselves, since we rely so much on body language to communicate in addition to sound.
One time on lsd I thought the compound itself was somehow an alien and the psychedelic experience was an interaction with it. What we experience is the best way we can comprehend it. I'm not saying it's true, but it was interesting to think about for a while.
Yep. This is the best book on the subject.
surprised this one wasnt mentioned
Favorite book ever, totally needs to be in Tim's library.
Arrival is probably the best Scifi movie from the last decade for me, except maybe Blade Runner 2049. It really fascinated me.
The premise of alien life we can't communicate with was an interesting element of the 1972 novel Stalker by Arcadi and Boris Strougatski, and it opened my eyes to this compatibility problem.
Your video really hooked me on trying to read Children of Time, even tho I'm not an avid reader.
Very good video overall.
The name of the novel is Roadside Picnic. Stalker is the name of the movie adaptation and video game series.
@@diehard7517 Ho, I was misguided by the French title, that use Stalker as the title and the picnic bit as the "subtitle" ("Stalker : pique-nique au bord du chemin").
I was pretty sure I read it in english and the title was still Stalker, but I can't find my book, so I might just be mistaken.
@@hectorvivis3651 yeah, localisation can be confusing sometimes.
Lmao of course the best sci-fi movies of our time are from Villeneuve, the absolute honhon-canuck madlad
The new Blade Runner was pretentious. Shocked how many people love it. Just popcorn fare compared to Arrival.
I always felt if there were aliens here, we would never even know it. They would be so advanced, we wouldn’t be able to detect them much like a colony of ants can’t detect humans watching them. Imagine that alien trying to communicate to us in vain similar to we as humans trying to communicate to ants with math or music.
Literally 6 year old me trying to teach my tortoise the English language…
The problem with this is that evolutionarily speaking ants are every bit as sophisticated as we are. They havent developed the intelligence or technology that we have but they have different tools that in many ways are superior. Climate change probably wont do much to ant populations around the world and there is no doubt in my mind that they will be here long after we have disappeared. They use simpler more durable tools to solve the problems they encounter. Ants dont notice us because in general they cant eat us but in places where they can eat us its a bad day if they notice you. So we are more advanced technologically sure but more advanced? I dont think so.
@@FemFridge Not necessarily. We can only detect things that emit, or reflect various forms of radiation and frequencies. If they don't, or only do it in a very limited manner, they'd be virtually undetectable. Considering the level of technology it would take to get a "giant spaceship" here from over who knows where, it's not far fetched to imagine them also being able to mask themselves in various ways. Space is HUGE, even if we only think of the general surroundings of our planet. Anything that's cold, dark and quiet may as well be cosmic background
And that's just taking the most basic stuff we can already deal with ourselves into consideration. Gets a lot funnier if we add some more "exotic" and/or hypothetical things into the equation. Like shaping gravity and space, or being able to access other dimensions than the three/four we are directly familiar with.
we still live in the same universe, we definitely would detect them in a way but we wouldn't be able to communicate in any significant way.
Interstellar has given away its potential as a serious scifi movie by explaining everything with love at the end. Arrival on the other hand has mentioned so many aspects of possible problems about communication with life from another planet in such a genious way, that in my opinion, its one of the top 3 Sci Fi movies currently.
Facts that shit kinda killed the ending of interstellar. Still a great movie though
Especially with many on the A-spec spectrum.
@@squidwardstesticles5914 And Anne Hathaway's character. She was super annoying because she was only there to cry and give pretentious speeches about love being the solution to every problem.
Finally someone agrees with me! I have such a deep seated hatred towards Interstellar because of this.
@@UmbraKrameri Damn brother, might wanna check yourself then
I got this book on audible because you had mentioned it half a year ago. As an arachnophobic, I approve this message. It started as a “let’s see how this goes” to me actively rooting for them and feeling sad if they died.
Though, I have to say. The 2nd one scarred me. I can’t hear “we’re going on an adventure” without a slight shudder now. Can’t wait for the 3rd book. Already preordered.
Hello Future Me really thinks Arrival is a good Film, huh? Ignoring how badly written it is?
Bad to a point they messed-up the
central Concept of the Time-Language?
@@nenmaster5218 Heads up, i think you meant to post under Tim’s poll and not under my thread.
Same! IRL I have a negative reaction to spiders but this book really challenged my knee jerk reaction to them. I never thought I would root for the spiders!
It was quite an experience feeling genuine, close to equal, fear and sadness for both the lives of the spiders and the humans. I have a whole new respect for the term “life is precious”
I don’t have a fear of spiders but the description of the human experiment paired with those unblinking eyes really got to me
Same 😭
I didn't read the book so I'm probably just missing something. But they couldn't figure out that she needed food and water? They were so advanced but they couldn't even do that?
@@suzannah991 They did. Those were given as examples of basic signs that were able to recognize, but as sentience is so much more a continuum on their world than on ours, that wasn't sufficient evidence of real sapience.
@@StrategicGamesEtc Oh, I understand. I guess it's hard to summarize an idea like that in a couple sentences, but you did a good job. I should probably just read the book lol
@@suzannah991 You should. I listened to the book before watching the video, I was so taken by the concept.
To anyone who hasnt read or listened to children of time:
I can't reccomend it enough
Its a truly fascinating work of art in terms of sci-fi and odd-ball story ideas.
Great stuff.
I'd really really like to correct him that spiders are arachnids and not insects but now I am afraid that he will come to my house and replace my arms with test... tentacles.
It needs to be said! XD
👏 Spiders 👏 are 👏 not 👏 insects 👏
Wait what 🧍🏻
THANK you.
the compatibility problem is fascinating, and the novel you discussed preserves it by having the "aliens" as bioengineered by a human. A real alien species smart enough to contact us over interstellar distances (who we're assuming are at least as smart as us or smarter and would think about the same problems as us and maybe more, otherwise they couldn't send their message almost by definition) would probably use math to communicate. They will probably have different senses and biochemistry, probably some exotic technology too, but math almost certainly works the same no matter where you go.
really ... perhaps not.
I am ready to bet that any means by which alien beings could communicate, it wouldn't be impossible for us to decode it given enough effort.
We have discovered fishes that talked through electric signals underwater, for example.
@@sageagbonkhese4091 math works everywhere unless someone discovers a part of the universe where you can add 2 and 2 and get a number other than 4
@@xXx_Regulus_xXx You can do that on earth, just play around in group theory for a few minutes, you will quickly learn that, under certain circumstances 2 + 2 = 1, or perhaps 0. The most common example is in computers dealing with eight bit integers, 127 + 1 = -128.
@@martygentillon2786 That doesn't change math or how it works, it's a limitation brought by the medium not the concept. You would need a part of the universe that breaks the concept.
Communication might be very difficult for both species. It may require ingenuity and the use of senses we don't normally use for communication.
But to say that communication would be impossible, kinda spits in the face of human ingenuity. New languages can be created. Devices can be made to pick up on things we ourselves cannot. As long as we are capable of interacting with each other, or at the very least, sensing that they are there, communication is possible.
The fact that we know how spiders communicate does rather suggest that there's not a lot of reason why we wouldn't be able to find a way to do it ourselves. It might be a lot harder for the spiders, lacking knowledge of primate communication, but this is really an excellent test of true intelligence.
No. It's an expression of human arrogance.
There's also the issue of concepts and ideas and how the alien can have radically different ideas we humans have no direct comparison for.
It exist even in languages where certain languages have ideas that are lost in translation. Where one language has no word for the idea found in another language.
I mean the girl in the whole moving uer fingers near mouth shows a start.
@@rickwrites2612 I mean sure, but for all she knew, she was saying "Autism taxes fart pizza lollypop" or something equally as stupid.
@@Josh_Quillan that said as far as I know, we know HOW spiders communicate, but still can not communicate WITH them.
For real that feeling of “creepy crawlies” is the whole basis of my fear of spiders and a few other bugs. Logically I don’t hate them or think they shouldn’t exist or whatever but as soon as I see them move all logical thought leaves me. So excited to read this book! It sounds so good!
It's actually kind of funny, I used to not like spiders myself. But I volunteered at a nature center and got to hold "Fluffy", a tarantula, which completely changed my perspective forever.
She wasn't some terrifying, evil thing. She was gentle, docile, calm. Fragile, even. I was told if I dropped her, she could shatter. She was a rose-haired tarantula.
That's what changed my perspective forever. The willingness to overcome my initial fear, and see her as the beautiful animal she really is.
Which then applied to all spiders. Now? I adore spiders.
Spiders with hair yes, spiders without hair NO
This. This is what youtube was made for. I miss having videos of people recommending and talking about what they are passionate about and opening my mind to new ideas being suggested to me on a regular basis.
I *LOVE* this video! Keep it up! ❤️
Wow. Thank you Tim. This might be the most eye opening thing I've ever listened to. I have extreme arachnaphobia. I covered my screen as soon as I heard the word "spider" because even pictures and drawings are unbearable to me, and I'm sweating as I'm writing this. It's as bad as it gets.
But the concept of a highly evolved spider civilization, twinned with a human idea of what is deserving of empathy and understanding, that is a very interesting take. A truly original science fiction story.
One day I will be brave enough to do exposure therapy, in the meantime I'm going to read this book.
That sounds similar to my impression.
My arachnophobia isnt debilitating, but still a noticeable problem. I needed to look away for most of this video.
Which is unfortunate, since conceptually, I find them to be fascinating and environmentally important creatures. I just cant quite get past that instinctive discomfort and stress yet.
I do have some exposure therapy, having to continuously catch and evict spiders from the clinic where I work. 😄
Unlike my landlady, I cant bring myself to kill them, just for my own benefit.
I figure this novel could also be a good read on a therapeutic level.
And the premise sounds really cool.
@@Wavemaninawe Yeah thankfully most spiders do not trigger the reaction for me. It's specifically tarantulas, and any spider that resembles that. Small house spiders aren't too bad.
I used to have arachnophobia, it can be a challenge to get through, but is well worth it for the almost... enlightenment? on the other side.
Jumping spiders and googly-eyed Ogre faced spider are some of the first to make me realize these wonderful creatures have so much more to them than the fear I always attributed to them. Of course, most spiders still scare me, but I can hold jumping spiders now :) Good luck on your journey
Congratulations on being courageous enough to face your fears and grow. Major respect, friend. God bless❤️
@@raining_trees Thank you!
I asked for Children of Time as a Christmas gift because of this video, and I adore it. Thank you for spreading awareness about this wonder of science fiction, Tim!
I bought the book long ago, discovered it's about spider racism, and just completely forgot about it. Your explanation makes it sound like exactly the read I've been craving recently. Gonna give it another shot next week!
Yes, do it! Book is great 👍
It's great! Read it twice 😁
wouldn't the intelligent spiders figure out the human is a living organism and it needs food and water to survive, I'm sure the spiders would figure it out no?
@@marcosmos7478they do but at the same time from their POV they eat liquids and also may have a different kind of metabolism. Something that eats solid food and doesn’t pre digest food may seem weird to them.
Dude legit bought all his books after your video on ancient civilizations, also maybe is just me having a monki brain but I totally missed the fact that the humans and spiders could not communicate with one another and when they meet the chapter ends and I was left with a feeling of "yay now they talk and we all gucci" but son when the next chapter began and the spiders describe how the "creature" was mute my entire body went numb for like 5 minutes
Why?
Read the book lol , highly recommend XD
Thanks again for recommending Children of TIme and Adrian Tchaikovsky in general with the first video on this btw! Instantly became one of my favorite books as well, maybe even #1! Have been thinking about it a lot since reading it.
If Children of Time blows your mind that way, I bet most of the works of Stanisław Lem will even more. Especially, probably most recognised his work - "Solaris" and of course - "His Master's Voice". Here he describes countless possibilities of our incapability to communicate with Aliens. Also worth noting are "Lymphater's Formula", "Eden" and "Fiasco". I really can't recommend these emough.
Currently reading the invincible after fiasco, solaris and eden. Lem really is a good read!
Solaris, yes!
I ordered this book from my local bookstore because of this video.
I am afraid of spiders, but do try to take them outside rather than kill them (in most cases). I remember one time I saw a spider in my car hiding in the crevices of my rubber mat. When I tried to move it to a tree, it clinged to the mat, and I imagined the fear this spider must feel seeing me, and wondering if it was hiding (which would imply hope of not being found). I still wonder if spiders are even sentient (capable of even having experiences); if their tiny bundles of neurons are capable of fear and hope. Just in case they can suffer, I do try to send then outside rather than kill them.
spiders are pretty fucking smart actually, like they do really well with the space their noggins give them. Emotion wise though, they work off a different set of chemicals, so their fear, stress, and joy may very well feel different from ours. Pain is universal though, everything that moves feels pain, and some things that don't.
@Machine Elf on a shelf The interpretation has been questioned because what they discovered, data-wise, is that spiders interact with and adapt to their environment in ways that resemble sentience. There are fungi and plants that do the same thing, but it would be very hard to believe that they are sentient, that is, fresh lettuce likely doesn't feel pain when you eat it.
What people are remarkably good at, though, is projecting humanity on to other things. We anthropomorphize roombas, clouds, the sun, the ocean. I think we would be hard press to find life on another planet we don't consider to be intelligent in some way.
We also have a remarkable capacity for empathy (which you wouldn't know given everything we hear about humans), but yeah we actually do empathize with tons of creatures and try to understand what they think, which isn't true of any other animals we know of.
@@km1dash6 Thing is,whenever the conversation of sentience is brought up,somehow humans always "pass the test",worms posses a nervous system have,self-preservation,they adapt to their enviroment,from a deterministic standpoint you can make the argument that all of human reason is deriven from those basic principles just in a more complex form.
Do all humans posses sentience?If we were to included extreme examples most definitely not,at which point does the cognitively most gifted orangutan become more "human" as we like to call it then another actual human.
All I am saying is that things may not seems as set in stone just becauce we lack empirical evidence for now,after all there is always a hint of pride in being special and that could be a hard pill to swallow.
Thank you for sharing this! Now I know I'm not alone :)
out of all the tests ive read/seen jumping spiders seem to be the most sentient or at least the most similar to sentient with wolf spiders coming in 2nd
Regarding the humans not seeing others as human, I really love how "A Memory Called Empire" shows both the insider and outsider perspective. The second book, "A Desolation Called Peace" goes deeper into the idea of aliens so alien, we can't even. I can only recommend the series, they are even a little bit shorter than Children of Time.
The Children of Time books are so amazing. It's nice to see someone else extolling their virtues!
Arrival. It has such a unique way to tell a story, and so much to think about going through it. That one reveal hits so hard.
Arrival did a better job of exploring the compatibility problem, but Interstellar portrayed the unforgiving and complex physics of the universe that we have such little comprehension of. Both fascinating movies, love them both. Imagination precedes human progress, and we're lucky as a species to have it.
i haven't seen arrival, but the ending of interstellar kinda messed up my perception of the physics. Nolan has often been criticized for his movies being too "distant", and here, i feel that nolan's attempt kinda failed. idk i just didn't like the ending. granted, i see why he did it, but it just kinda fell flat for me.
Have you ever thought of doing a video about time skips? A scene chapter or episode ends only to pick up days weeks or years later? The do's and don'ts and breakdown of that would be really cool
Much needed. Patrick O'Brien knows when to do it, but not exactly how...
To me the incompatibility problem seems like a tool to logically narrow what questions/answers we can look for in alien species. Just keep methodically analyzing potential similarity onto next similarity onto next similarity: do we see differently, do we hear differently, do we look differently, do we touch differently. Until you find common ground. The best examples of this exist on our own world with us trying to communicate/understand dolphins, chimpanzees, or dogs. Stark differences in communication ability, and perhaps not directly equatable to the compatibility we are discussing.
However the incompatibilty problem in regards to intelligent alien life provides the solution in and of itself. 'Intelligent' alien life, and while they may be different in all manner of ways we can share universal concepts such as logic. Because we can assume their intelligence and their interaction with the universe it gives us fundamental common ground, letting us test for sentience. We already define intelligent life by such tests on whether it can recognize things categorically or define differences in shapes. Our basis for intelligence has to be reasonable given. Otherwise, were we to alter our definition ahead to widen our scope for intelligent consideration, turning back we may find trees are now sentient.
We are already incompatible, that's what makes them alien, but I don't think it is a problem.
Thank you. We _do_ have a common language- the laws of physics. We might portray them completely differently, but the fundamental rules by which the world works are the same.
I think the fallacy is assuming all intelligence is the same. We _assume_ that despite being spiders and communicating differently, that they must be intelligent in a similar way. "Surely, on the inside, they're using language and math and logic, like us."
That in itself is an assumption. They might _think_ in an entirely different way. Say dolphins became more evolved and we tried to communicate with them. Would imagery even work? Showing them dots or hand gestures that are supposed to convey math? Or would they just see us as threatening, like how a cuttlefish flashes dots and images to confuse its prey?
In the same way humans have a bias for looking for intelligent life, the aliens have their own biases too. They might only be looking for intelligent life like themselves too. That's the problem.
@@bugjams Testing for intelligence is at best making a valid educated guess, and at worse labeling the unknowable. And better still what we are really testing with is sentience. A calculator is intelligent but I don't believe it is sentient. A crab is sentient but not intelligent. There is a sentient intelligent threshold somewhere.
To even begin to search for intelligent life I believe assuming intelligence is necessary. We have no way currently of scanning something and deriving it's IQ. Being able to calculate the number of neurons, total biomass, and brain-body proportions seems helpful and works well enough for a guess at the intelligence of things related to us. Yet there is something more to it. If I built a mechanical brain an exact perfect functional copy of mine with cogs replacing synapses and oil replacing water. If I turned it on... would it think? Maybe? We have no way to scan or know. It cannot interact with it's environment sufficiently for us to test anything. Scanning it will show us complexity but if that counts as intelligence then any sufficiently complex thing would be intelligent too. A metropolis has complexity, a tree's roots have complexity: it feels unintuitive to call them sentient, let alone intelligent. I don't think we'll ever be able to look at something and KNOW that it is sentient. I believe that logic would apply to alien brains that have no similarity to our own, we can just never know of the inner intelligence of things in the first place.
Therefore we can't really declare something intelligent if it doesn't interact with it's environment. We need to find intelligence in what things do. Can the lifeform in front of me count, can it abstract numbers from imperfect physical examples. Two oranges apart, two oranges touching, two oranges squished together, two oranges split into three slices, two oranges blended. When does two oranges become one? Can it show me the answer, in any form?
Thanks for reading, hope my point got across. Sorry it got philosophical :)
@@vod1165 No that's a really good point and it brings us to a conclusion that many people find too horrifying to consider for long. The thing about a city or forest being sentient I mean.
Look at us. "One" human is actually trillions of living cells. Each cell is not sentient. And yet together, the whole thing forms a cohesive being capable of thinking. So I think, yes, if you could build a massive mechanical brain of cogs, water, and oil, that it would be able to think somehow.
Likewise, our language limits us with words like, "one animal, trillions of cells, etc." We could compare humans in a city to cells in an animal. The city is alive in a way. It can intake resources, produce waste, even replicate itself. It can make decisions to adapt to its environment. A person in a city is very much like a cell in an animal.
Therefore, using words like "one, animal, etc" is limiting. How can we define "one animal" when thinking like this? A cell is part of a human which is part of a city which is part of an entire world. Therefore calling a human "one living thing" is over-simplifying. Not only is the human made of many things, but it is simultaneously part of a much larger living organism.
Now imagine an alien race that's all a hive-mind, like bees or ants. Through this lens, communicating with it would require a very different kind of thinking. Would we refer to the whole race as one being? Even if each member of the organism was dumber than us, what if the entire collective was smarter? We'd need to find a way to communicate on a massive scale.
Likewise, imagine a very small animal like a moss or fungi-like alien that, collectively, builds a very intelligent forest-sized animal that communicates through spores or something, over the span of decades. Or don't imagine it, because ecosystems like this already exist on our own planet!
It's a terrifying thought experiment because it can make one feel very small and insignificant. But at the same time, it's so cool to think that we're made of trillions of non-sentient parts yet somehow conscious. And thought experiments like these may help us communicate not just with aliens someday, but with other lifeforms on Earth!
At the very least, it's good material for sci-fi writers. I know the "hive-mind alien" thing is a bit cliché at this point, but I think done right, it can still be amazing.
I found it interesting in this video you used mostly jumping spiders which have the largest eyes of any spider that we know of making them naturally more endearing to humans. I just thought that was an interesting point. Very good video loved it
Had you asked me what I thought of spiders two years ago, I'd have given the knee-jerk reaction of "creepy". Now, after looking after tarantulas for 2 years and keeping my own for nearly as long, I find their movements beautiful and I could sit all day watching my little pets move around their enclosure or grooming themselves after eating. They're beautiful, and I'm so glad my perception has changed. Still scared of them, but intrigued and awe-inspired too.
personally I would have described them as cool, but then again you'd have to push the years back a few more before I find them weird. for the most part I was "meh" cause I rarely ever saw them in the first place. but after watching spiders I find them pretty neat
Yeah that's probably the main reason any real encounter with aliens would go badly for us. Knee-jerk reactions and xenophobia are kind of humanity's specialty. Most people lack critical thinking or the ability to plan beyond the next couple weeks of their lives
@@bugjams the worst part is that the aliens could be the same exact way.. WHICH is why WE need to jump FIRST! GET'M BEFORE THEY CAN GET US! WE CAN'T LET THEM KILL US OFF!! TO WAR!!!
Nuke from orbit
@@dans864 nuke from surface @ u
i actually have read this book a few months ago. it’s incredible. i think it needs its own adaptation for sure.
Super interesting to hear about aliens especially for someone like me who wants to be an Astro biologist. You also have some interesting discussions about prejudices. I'm definitely going to read Children of Time.
...Hello Future Me really thinks Arrival is a good Film, huh? Ignoring how badly written it is? Bad to a point they messed-up the
central Concept of the Time-Language?
@@nenmaster5218 elaborate
Though I never hated spiders, that book seriously changed my outlooks and made me so much more curious about them. Especialy jumping spiders and the odd way they do things. I feel so protective over then now😆
Stanislaw Lem's "Solaris" and "Fiasco" are two really good books also about trying (and largely failing) to understand newly discovered alien life.
Just what I was commenting. I have never read Solaris (only watched Tarkovsky's adaptation) but I loved Fiasco, it is thematically clear but long I discussed with my friend what actually transpired in there.
The Soviet movie of Solaris is great too
Eden by Stanisław Lem is another book about that subject.
Lem's "His Master's Voice" also touches on this subject.
Arrival is far better in my opinion. Also my name is Matthew and I was adding children of time to my reading list right when you said “you’re going to read this, Matthew” 11:08
Another fellow Matthew here, I recently got Children of Time and am actively reading it. I had to quadruple check the audio at 11:08 to make sure it wasn't a glitch in the system lol
@@matthewp6353 Let's make a team.
When he said "you're going to read this, Matthew." my heart skipped a beat.
(My name is also Matthew, and I generally go by Matthew instead of Matt.)
I had to quadruple check too 😂 I was almost freaked out for a second 🤣
My name is also Mathew, was trying to fall asleep
Going to be awake for another hour apparently
Children of time is a fantastic book, so much underrated. I had a hard time getting started the first time I read it, but when I got hooked, I couldn't let it go ! Truly among the most thought-provoking sci-fi out there, along with Greg Evan "Diaspora"
To date Diaspora is still my favorite sci fi book of all time, even more so than the three body problem series. I really want to check children of time out!
And you're so right about what you said at 8:40 - 9:20, not just in the book but in real life. It's very easy to be afraid of spiders and insects but the easiest cure is just to spend time around them, actually watching them and trying to understand them without panicking or looking away or trying to kill them. The fear is just from a lack of familiarity and understanding. I used to be afraid of bugs too but by interacting with them enough eventually I got over it and actually started really liking them and being able to handle them and keep them as pets. So many of them have a very unique beauty, even some of the "creepier" ones, in their own way. It's fascinating how they move like little armoured robots.
That's so true. I learned to be afraid of insects, as pretty much everyone I guess, but then I studied them and now I'm a professional beekeeper and I have difficulties understanding people's scared reaction to a bee or even a wasp, when I'm so much around them.
@@EmelieWaldken definitely. I think we aren't born with the fear of insects and little kids usually don't mind them, its something were taught and can unlearn just as easily. I can't imagine someone being afraid of a jumping spider or a honey bee anymore unless they're allergic. It just seems absurd once you see through the conditioned fear, these are animals so small and fragile you could end their life without a second thought, whats there to be afraid of?
@@soasertsus I'm not sure, I was literally terrified of many insects when I was little (especially grasshoppers, these were my nightmares made flesh ^^). No one ever taught me that, my mother is actually a spider-loving and in general nature-loving person, she really tried to teach me, but I couldn't help it.
Never understood being scared of spiders. They are just another animal, like every other on this planet. I really cannot relate on any emotional level to that. In most place they cannot even do anything to you. But then again, people are always for no reason scared of so many stupid things.
I used to live in a particular place in WV where there were quite a lot of small black and white jumping spiders. These were curious little things and virtually fearless. Now every morning I'd sit on my porch have a coffee and a smoke. I'd see these nearly impossibility fast littlespiders. And pretty much everyday they seemed to get a little closer to the point where theyd sit on the chair and do a little spider dance. One day I noticed it wasn't random spiders. It was one particular little black jumping spider who had decided that he wanted to be friends. So I named it Pete. And in the spring of 2018 I saw Pete every morning. They are smarter than we give them credit for. I miss you Pete the jumping spider. 🕷
You could have taken Pete with you when you left that particular place in Virginia.
Stanislaw Lem used this communication problem as a plot device in several of his books too. His Master’s Voice is the classic example of the compatibility problem.
Glad this book is getting more recognition. Its actually brilliant !
This video encouraged me to get my book club to read this book and everyone loved it and usually we talk about the book of the month for about 45 minutes and then we change topics. This time we talked about the book for 1.5 hours, there's so much to discuss about it! Thanks for the recommendation, I also told them all to check out your channel😊
I love Arrival, I can’t watch it without crying. It makes me happy and sad and wistful for something I can’t put into words. It is definitely my favorite sifi movie, and it has an amazing soundtrack.
i’m literally adding it rn to my cart, you did such a great job making me interested, the interview with the author and everything! i’m finishing the southern reach trilogy and i’ll jump right into children of time
Oh nice, Southern reach! The second book was a bit of a slog for me, but the mystery of the first and the horror of the third really make it special. 😊
Same
I like how you mentioned Speaker for the Dead. I really enjoyed the detective feel of the novel trying to decode the aliens' odd behaviors.
Okay. You hooked me in. I downloaded the audio book of Children of Time. I can't remember the last time I listened to fiction, and I've never been into sci fi, but you made it sound so cool I had to try it. I was blown away by how great it was, and have just started the second book in the series. Thank you so much for the introduction.
I 100% agree that Children of Time/Ruin were the best sci-fi I have read in a LONG time (40 years) and got me out of Netflix and back to reading again! Great video. Thanks.
It's funny that this came up. One of my favourite scenes in star trek was when Troi tries to explain the differences in language in Ensigns of Command. I also like that scene in Arrival where trying to ask a question and how difficult it is. I've always loved the ideas of communication.
I am insanely scared of spiders, in fact, If I wasn't sick today, this video alone would keep me up all night. I have once stayed up for 3 days straight because there was a spider in my room. During those same three days, I moved my bed from the wall to the center of my room in hopes to avoid further spiders..I know, that wouldn't have done anything. I'm terrified or spiders
But
This has convinced me to read this book I am so intrigued. My mother has promised me a kindel for Christmas so I will be downloading that along with many others.
I think about Arrival all the time. It changed my perspective on life. Sounds cliche to say a piece of art moved me in that way, but it did. And made it's way in my top 5 after the first watch. Interstellar is great, too. Just on a different level.
I'm the same way. Arrival moved me in a way sticks with me to this day. It's so hard to put into words but I love what it has to say about life, love, and the mysteries of the universe.
I've had this book on the back burner for quite a while now, but with your renewed seal of approval, I think I am now actually gonna take the time to read it!
Well you convinced me to read the book, and here I am a week later. Damn what a good book. Onwards to Children of Ruin.
Here's something interesting, I actually downloaded the audible version of this book after it only looking at the stars, never even glancing at the reviews or reading the description. It was recommended to me and I was more inexperienced at selecting titles. Audible said it was more of what I liked so I picked it. I have severe arachnophobia. I managed to make it about halfway into the book I think... I read all the way to the part where the human got captured by spiders and they attempted to use their fingers to do the dance to beg for food and water. And then I turned it off because I was so distressed that I couldn't continue the book. If the author had used any other alien entity I think I would have been fine but choosing something that people have irrational and uncontrollable fears made it inaccessible for me even though I was absolutely enthralled by the type of book and the message it was seeking explore. Intellectually, I understand that the vast majority of spiders can't hurt me, and that in the area of the country I live in there are only two'sh that could ever do serious harm to me. But that's why it's called irrational fear. I can't control how my nervous system reacts to being next to a spider. My brain can try to think its way out of fear all it wants. But, my body locks up and my brain shuts down.
You may be interested in the sequel then. The spiders are still present in the story, but the main focus is on a new species of uplifted animals; octopi! Also rather than being a direct sequel, it is more like another story set in the same world a century or so after the events of Children of Time wrapped up, so you can jump in without missing too much
You may want to look into desensitization therapy to help mitigate that. It seems like you have a pretty extreme form of arachnophobia, and it could really help you a lot. It's definitely helped a lot of people. I'm a mild arachnophobe myself, although it's become somewhat less over time.
I wanna say something very, and don't get me wrong, EXTREMELY rude to you, but I don't wanna hurt ya.
:C
Can you help?
i agree that sounded like pure nightmare fuel
Imagine this was turned into a movie or series holy crap this would be a horror movie on accident
OKAY I'M SOLD I WILL READ THAT BOOK IT SOUNDS AWESOME
I used to be SO scared of spiders, but a friend helped me overcome that by teaching me about their biology, species, habits, etc. I'm not super comfy with the big ones and will never be, but I'm not phobic anymore and actively protect these fascinating animals from the humans who want to kill them on sight.
I'm so glad you mentioned this book months ago, cause I read it and freaking loved it.
I've read the book. Its one of the best I've ever read. As you said the parallel about the rise of spider civilization and the decay of human one overboard Gilgemesh is written so well. I also love the way how he follows the descendants of one spider over thousands of years of their society's evolution. The innovations and technological advancements the spider society makes over the years is just pure creative genius.
I wish more and more people read this book. Like you I am frustrated too that none of my friends read it.
Interstellar and Arrival both have their good and bad points. It really depends on my mood. Right now, I think Arrival is better, mostly for the whole language and time aspect, a month ago I thought Interstellar was better lol. Seriously that wave scene scared the crap out of me, which led to me having a better idea of what actually terrifies me and why. Good stuff all around.
The understandings was amazing. Without this, the book wouldn't have worked.
Well ofcourse scientists don't assume we will have 'compatible' languages; hence why we use patterns based on physical constants of the universe wherever possible.
Pretty hard to have a technological civilization capable of receiving our signals without understanding Pi or at least a rudimentary understanding of atomic structure; for example.
Happy to hear that you share my enthusiams for children of time. I'm a very slow reader, yet I read this book in 4-5 days, and I'm often thinking of Children of time as a milestone for what science fiction can be.
Watched this video. Went and bought it on Audible. First book I've tried reading in a long time. 15 hours later and I just finished it. Awesome book and kinda reignited my love of reading. Thanks mate 👍
WHAAAAAAT?! THE THIRD BOOK IS OUT?! THank you so much tim- can't wait to watch the interview straight away
“Children of Time” is a great book! You got me to read it, and definitely keep pushing it to get others to read it too! 👍👍
Kudos!! All the books you mentioned are not only fantastic reads they also really push you to think in different perspectives. While these books are sci-fi stories the concepts they force you to consider will leave a lasting impact on how you the world.
I can completely relate to you on having no one to discuss these books with. I can’t manage to convince people to give them a try.
even with spiders, we have a LOT in common with them. We share the impulses to eat, we share the impulse for replication, mating, killing, self protection, survival. We solve life's problems in different ways but we tackle the same problems nonetheless. We both battle entropy and evolved bodily systems that preserve a homeostasis. What if there are beings who don't share even those most basic needs? What if there are beings that are completely atemporal, don't need to replicate, don't need to be bound by a single perspective, don't need to be bound by a self and have no need for even self preservation, that exist outside entropy altogether. How would they think, and make decisions, if at all? What would even be life's problems for beings like this to solve? what would be their basic needs, what would constitute archetypes for them
There's a Jacques Lacan quote that goes by ''All sorts of things in this world behave like mirrors''. I love to think about, what if there is something that inherently doesn't, and we can't make it in anyway relatable to us, for which empathy is by some fundamental cause, impossible. I guess that's kinda what lovecraftian horror is for, now that i think about it
If there are beings like that, do we care about it?
Or differently- if we have no way to measure what they do (laws of physics here) or interact with them, then why bother even thinking about it?
Our known universe has rules. We don't know all the rules, and we're kinda bad at applying those that we do know, but there are rules.
Presumably any alien we encounter would work within those same rules, so chances are whatever they do we can at least have sensors that detect itm
@@Olivia-Wi mean, if the question is “why think about -anything” the answer will always be “because its fun”
and even in pursuing a vain idea in the shower we can incidentally find some useful thoughts here and there
@@shinkamui To not have a human treat you like it thinks it's looking in a mirror?
That would be the life!
I have arachnophobia. The random spider images just made my skin crawl, and the idea of being captured by smart spiders made me want to die. Oh my god. I might read the ones with octopuses though, but I don't appreciate the idea of having my arms replaced with testicles, thank you.
The formics in the movie and the book 'Ender's Game" used telepathy through computer games to communicate with Ender Wiggins. Interesting subject. Thanks for sharing your idea.
I liked Arrival more, that to me is peak scifi movie. And this book series is amazing! I loved Children of Time and dove straight into Children of Ruin and "we're going on an adventure" now literally raises the hairs on my arms but the book is so good! I can't wait to dig I to the latest book over the holidays.
I read this book and as someone terrified but spiders, I loved it. I really need to read the rest of the series. Children of Time though was one of the best novels I've read in years in any genre.
Same man
Oh, you HAVE to read "Blindsight" by Peter Watts. It was my first introduction to truly alien, well, aliens. And Watts dives deep into the biology and linguistic problems of it all. Plus a lot of sentience =/= intelligence and intelligence =/= sentience. The scramblers are the most unique aliens I've read, though I'm definitely going to check out this series!
OK now I’m positive my devices are spying on me (not really) I just finished Children of Memory last night and woke up to this video on my feed. I thoroughly enjoyed the series and plan to read more Tchaikovsky. Definitely Arrival. I really like Interstellar, but I have a degree in linguistics. I love Star Trek, but the idea of a universal translator always seemed impossible. Dharmok is one of my favorite episodes as it shows the difficulty in understanding another culture even if you know the words. Arrival shows how difficult it will be to interact with aliens, though I’m sure reality will be far harder, perhaps impossible. I’ve been trying to get my husband to read Children of Time even though he is terrified of spiders. It’s made it to his TBR shelf so hopefully soon.
Your devices are spying on you though. That's the sad reality of what the Internet and modern technology have become.
A Deepness in the Sky by Venor Vinge also features a Spider Civilisation, but highly anthropomorphised by the human translators. It also (but more briefly) goes into the compatibility problem here!
What I thought too, given the close plot and book name, I wonder if children of time was inspired by a deepness in the sky!
I love how many sci-fi/worldbuilding channels pimp this book. It's excellent and I love that I discovered it all them years ago. I understand the third book is close, and I'm so hyped for it.
edit: never mind, looks like it IS out. Couldn't find it in shop when I looked the other day, lol
I was about to message and ask if there is a sequel about octopuses ( I love and am so fascinated by them), and then you answered my question and have me sold on this series!
octoPIE :D
I've had a lifelong phobia of spiders... And dammit, now I'm going to be adding this to my reading list! Thought I'd want to read it for the incomparability angles, but I'm now morbidly curious to see how an arachnid civilization evolves
I love how much you love Children of Time but I have to wait to read it and you talking about it so much is flooding my feed with videos about it
You articulated your points so very well. You actually have me (someone with severe achnophobia) considering whether I have misplaced my fears.
I just finished Children of Time, on your recommendation, and it was freaking phenomenal. Thank you, dude.
spiders....
I actually bought and read Children of Time after watching this video. He isn’t messing around. It’s by far the most intriguing story I’ve come across in a long time. Highly recommended! And it’s on Audible!
I full throat second that! Easily one of the top 5 books I’ve ever read. I felt like a different, better person for reading it and I cried A LOT lol (and, of course, I like spiders now)
This is kind of done in "The Kraken Wakes" by John Wyndham. There is an alien invasion, except it takes several years for anyone to realize due to a combination of the ships landing in large bodies of water, and people being, well, people and in denial. The aliens may have stayed in the oceans peacefully, except for actions taken by humans that, from an alien perspective, looked (and kind of were) extremely hostile.
Please keep the Children of Time content coming!
I share your passion for Children of Time. I read it a few years back and found every concept fascinating. I've read a fair few of his books now, he has a unique way of seeing things that scratches that itch just right! Am waiting on book 3 of The Final Architecture.
I hadn't heard of that book, but it's on my list now! Random coincidence: just last night my wife and I were talking about whether humanity was truly ready for first contact, and my negative thought experiment was "If an alien crash landed here, and had the misfortune to look like a giant spider, how many people would on this planet would actually try and communicate with it, as opposed to immediately trying to kill it?" I suspect it would be a vanishingly small percentage of the population.
This book sounds AMAZING, your unpaid ad totally worked for me
This video was crazy interesting, but as someone who is absolutely terrified of spiders it was really hard to watch. After the first clip of the tarantula I literally yelped and almost panicked, then I just put my phone face down and listened to the rest of the video lol
Edit: Also, I’m adding the book to my reading list! It sounds really cool and to someone like me will probably feel like a thriller lmao
It will help with arachnophobia. Jumping spiders are pretty different to ye olde tarantula though; they seem to be able to solve somewhat complex problems far above what their tiny brains should be able to. I'm betting computer scientists will learn some amazing hacks from their species.
Maybe you'll even want a pet jumping spider after reading.. they're one of the most amazing animals on Earth.
The best cure for arachnophobia is exposure. I used to be afraid of spiders too, now I can hold them casually and intentionally catch jumping spiders outside when I see them to bring into my home for pest control. You just have to spend time watching them without giving in to the panic and pulling away, the longer you just observe them and start to understand them, the less scary they seem. Jumping spiders especially, if you look into their eyes it's hard not to feel some spark of recognition, like they are looking back at you. They feel very thoughtful in their own way, more like looking into the eyes of a mammal than a bug. Same with mantids. I guarantee those guys are a lot more complex than we give them credit for.
This is one of the greatest books of all time , in my humble opinion. Thank you for the announcements of the third book’s release! I am currently reading a small handful of books, including the epic billion-paged Insomnia, but…. Sorry to the small handful of books, y’all are getting put down because Children of Memory just came out.
Arrival is better because it avoids some Hollywood clichés about what “saving the world” and first contact look like. It's not about sacrifice like Interstellar (and many others), it's about communication and understanding otherness. I'm biased cause I'm a linguist though haha
Thanks for recommending this! Between you and others on TH-cam, this book surfaced to my wishlist, then audible, then I couldn’t put it down and read it in 24 hours.
The end was completely satisfying, delivering on all fronts.
Another book (and film) that deals with this topic is 'Solaris' by Stanisław Lem. Very interesting book. Lem as an author has written some amazing books in, but not limited to, science fiction. For a lighter read I really enjoy his short stories 'The Star Diaries'. Hope that this is helpfull for someone 🙂!
And sunlight
Children of Time is my absolute favourite scifi novel.
I just finished Children of Memory last week and it was fantastic ❤️
You did it. I wanted to read the book, and then you called me out specifically. I was legit shook for a few seconds as I possessed what just happened
Dude I was watching on my tv and had to look this video up on my phone to check the comments to make sure I wasn’t trippin. I was already abt to download the book but now I have to.
Dude I’m at work rn and it caught me waaaaaay off guard. This is the first video of yours I’ve watched so there’s an extra level of serendipity. I’m buying the book lol
lol I had the exact same response
at first I was like holy shit did he somehow do this for everyone's name??
But I guess he just really wanted Matthews to buy this book.
it worked.
Yeah what the fuck I already read the fucking book why my name
They are finally understanding ghosts, these are beings who are getting closer and closer to communicating with us 🥺
This seems like a really cool video but my phobia with spiders is making it really hard to enjoy; Super cool concept though! the imagery of the "subject" needing to mimmik how spiders comunicate is honestly terrifying; as with the concept in general.