When I was in labour with my first baby, my husband gave me a blessing promising me several things. Amoungst that blessing he told me to study the symbolism between birth and the covenant and of how both involve blood, water and spirit. As a part of my study later on I came across Moses 6:60, which reads "For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified".
Yes! I heard this recently! Women (our mothers) make it possible to come through the veil to earth, and men (who hold the priesthood) assist us through the veil back to the Lord's presence. ❤️
Such an interesting connection to temple and women. Thank you. I actually had two thoughts as I listened. 1. When we do our family history we are researching our family tree, our origins or literally OUR Tree if Life. We then link, seal, bind our 'branches' in the temple. 2. Birth and rebirth. Most people speak of the 3 elements present at both which are blood, water and spirit. However there is a 4th element that is often overlooked, but just as important. It is the change of heart. Before a baby is born it receives its oxygen through the umbilical cord and the placenta acts as the fetus's lungs (literally the placenta is the breath of life). Oxygen bypasses the fetus's lungs and is filtered through two valves in the heart and pumped throughout its little body. When that baby is born and takes its first breaths of air directly to the lungs, those two valves in the heart begin to close and the heart literally goes through a change. It is one that cannot be reversed! And our spiritual change of heart should be a permanent one as well, for to reverse either one would be to die. Just a couple more connections I'm sure you have made but just didn't have time to share everything ű Marcie Murphy in Rexburg
GREAT additional insight! Thanks for taking the time to expand my thoughts on this! Had you not, who knows how much longer it would have taken to come to me and my sisters whom I will be sharing it with! 😊
My brother recently had his 8th child. And after James was born Jess held him and sucked out the amniotic fluid with her mouth to help him breathe. Sometimes we use one of those nose suckered things to suck out fluid from the babies lungs and mouth and nose... Anyway it came to my mind as her mouth was on his amd then hebstarted to breath the wirds from the tempme and the creation story that after God formed Adam and placed him in the garden that he breathed into him the breath of life. I won't be able to read or hear those words again without seeing the image of Jess with her mouth on James' to help him breath.
“President Joseph F. Smith, the sixth President of the Church, reported: “Joseph Smith taught the doctrine that the infant child that was laid away in death would come up in the resurrection as a child; and, pointing to the mother of a lifeless child, he said to her: ‘You will have the joy, the pleasure and satisfaction of nurturing this child, after its resurrection, until it reaches the full stature of its spirit.’ …”
When Moses came down from Sinai, the Israelites made him veil his face because they could not abide his countenance. The veil only covers that which is sacred so that mortals can endure it. P. S. Megan, I wanted to give you a big hug the whole time. I'm so sorry you're starving to be a mother. You will be a tremendous mom some day.
Ever notice how often the Apostles refer to mothers as "Angels". NT Wright makes the point that temples are by definition places where heaven and earth overlap. When we stand in the prayer circle we become a mixed group of heavenly and earthly beings around the throne/alter praising God, like in Revelation.
This is why it bothers me that they keep changing/shortening the endowment experience. I feel like things are being lost like this powerful symbolism with veiling the women's faces. That was such an amazing insight I got from this episode.
It's impossible to disappoint God by not having a baby when God hasn't given you a baby. God's plan and timing is better than ours. All women are mothers whether or not they've given birth. The key is to discover in what way and with whom God wants you to mother. I didn't have a mother most my life but in church, from primary to young womens to relief society, friends mothers and friends of the family I had many mothers.
I don’t want to be rude, but please don’t make motherhood on the level of a participation trophy. Motherhood involves huge sacrifice and commitment that is unmatched. These other relationships are good, but they aren’t motherhood. All women are *potential mothers, even if it doesn’t happen in this life. But this trend of calling all women mothers is unfortunate.
@@danjohnson8556 i understand this i have children. Those i referd to did make commitments and sacrifices for me whereas the one who gave birth to me didn't. Eve was called the mother of all living before she ever had children. As you know raising children is hard. Those who don't have children of their own can be a great support to those who do.
@@justjamie6458 Yes, there is much more to being a good mother than giving birth. But women who have not either given birth or adopted and raised a child cannot claim motherhood. It reminds me of the concept of ‘stolen valor’. Not everyone who is female needs to be praised as a ‘mother’. It isn’t true, therefore we shouldn’t say it, even if meant with compassion. Mother’s day is for mothers. There are other days to recognize other women. In our ward we seriously stopped having daddy-daughter date activities with the youth because one girl didn’t have a father in the home and it would make her feel bad. That is NOT what we should be doing as a society. Compassion must be tethered to truth.
The Latter-Day Saint interpretation and understanding of Christianity is so vastly deep and comprehensive in its theology, I find myself regularly humbled. Indeed as Alma said "All things testify there is a God"...
Except that the LDS theology contradicts just about everything Jesus said in the bible. Beware! Trusting in temple ceremonies and a phoney priesthood authority will lead you to hell.
@@kendarcie6613 Except that Reformed theology, and typical Evangelical talking points through Anti-Mormon rhetoric and tropes contradicts and denies everything Christ taught in the bible. Beware! Trusting false teachers and pissant armchair theologians like you who hold to phony testimony and authority will lead you down the path of deception and lies.
@@kendarcie6613 It does not contradict what Jesus said, but it contradicts the single scripture that Luther invented in the 16th century to attack the Catholic Church, that is very clear in the books that I have read from the evangelical Protestants themselves, all 5 alone is evidence of Luther's rebellion towards Catholicism and I am not defending Catholicism, but, that is the truth, and since in a certain way we have something structurally and at the same time not with Catholicism, your anti-LDS radar is manifested in a certain way by certain arguments that we handle and that is why, the mere scrutiny is the problem, Arminians against Calvinists and all evangelicals, well, that is the truth.
@@TheRegimentalscot 😆 Mormonism is to Christianity, what reddit fan fiction is to things like Star Wars. Not canon; often ridiculous and yet entertaining in ways it never intended.
My sister encapsulates placentas to help the morhers regain some of the hormones they made while they were pregnant. I've learned from her that when a woman is pregnant, the placenta takes charge of both the baby's hormones AND THE MOTHER'S HORMONES. (That is why post partum can sometimes be so devastating, because when the placenta is delivered with the baby, the mother's body may take a while to ramp up her own hormone control and creation.) But in regard to this episode, isnt it fascinating to consider that the tree of life controls both the mother and the child? It is as if God is represented by the tree/placenta and he dwells with us while we create life from a seed. He enabled me to give life, and I often felt like a bystander while my body performed task after task, and I just watched in awe as it happened. The placenta is not part of the woman or of the baby, i feel that t is a symbol of God with us.
My son was born with a veil. I remember the doctor telling me how rare it was. He actually became quite teary. But I remember seeing him pull it back over my son’s head. Amazing ❤
Megan, I married at 45. Having my own children was not possible. I do get to mother two great boys (now young adults) whom I claim as my own since marrying their father. I have grieved not having my own children- not being able to experience pregnancy and birth- but God is not punishing me for that. Living the covenants I've made with Heavenly Father throughout my life reassures me that God knows the desires of my heart and what I would have done if I had the opportunity.
I participated in an ancient Native American sweat lodge ceremony. The lodge is a dome half buried in the ground. It represents mother earth, or the womb. When you enter, you crawl into it. When you come out, you crawl out a new person. The symbolic parallels with our temple ceremonies are striking. But I think about that often when I enter the temple.
Meanwhile, Jesus says HE is the living Gospel by which all men are saved by coming directly to Himself. Unless you are born again you will die in your sins.
@@kendarcie6613 100%. Often Jesus spoke in allegory and symbolism to teach His disciples the deeper meanings behind His plan, His doctrine, His role, and strengthen our relationship, dependency, and commitment to Him through these teachings and acts - in ways that broke through linguistic limitations. We are born again through Christ, and merely saying "I'm born again" and going through the symbolic act of being born again has different impacts on our psyche. All truth is His truth, and we seek after that truth wherever it may be. Many of His followers heard His symbolic truths and rejected Him, and even considered His teachings blasphemous, because their surface belief in Him couldn't understand the symbolic act of eating His Flesh and Blood (see John 6). "Whoever has ears, let them hear"
@@cheezedaze I disagree. There is nothing symbolic about actually meeting Jesus. We see Jesus encountering people, which results in some people abandoning all to follow Him, while others do not. Personal salvation, and rescue from hell, are found only in personally meeting Jesus and having your heart changed by HIS love on the cross to atone for ALL your sins, and then rising from the dead as the one and ONLY LORD GOD. Mormon temple ceremonies, symbolism, and fake human authority, do not have ANYTHING to do with a person being born again.
I never married and haven’t had kids. I have personally been promised that the Lord will make it right for me….I feel strongly it will be in the Millenium. Also, note that Adam called Eve the Mother of all living BEFORE she had children.
Same! The trial of it that is hard is other family members who approach me with an attitude of mourning for my loss. I have such a strong faith of not just the restoration of the Gospel but also the Gospel of Restoration. 😊
Tikla is pretty much the type of woman that Missionaries talk about finding once they get home. I think the Men of the Church wish that the Women of the Church would dive deeper into the Doctrines of the Gospel like this.
I agree, being single and having studied - I have a hard time having a conversation with many people, and specifically single women because it seems to be quite intimidating.
Love this conversation! I feel so lucky in St George, Utah, to have two temples within 7 minutes of each other. For quite a while, I went to the temple Tuesdays through Saturday for many months. This focused journey completely changed my understanding of the temple, its symbols, its purpose., and my understanding of myself. Truly, it is Jacob’s ladder, a conduit between earth and heaven.
This is spot on ladies! This is my most favorite episode of Ward Radio where they have had the ladies host the show. I took an online BYU Id Religion Class called Eternal Families. It was based on each paragraph of the Proclamation of the Family. Everything you are teaching us about being born again in our mother's womb and comparing it to the temple, etc, was taught in this class. It was amazing! We revere mothers and the process of having a child is sacred, and we revere a babies life as sacred as well, and we don't support abortion because of how each child's life is sacred.
You guys HAVE to see the episode that the Joseph brothers did on their channel “the stick of Joseph” called “the hidden meaning of the ten virgins” It’s actually way more in depth than just explaining about the ten virgins and explains why we do what we do in the temple the way that we do it. It is so good. Tons of scriptures quoted. Explains the veil among tons of other things. And really it doesn’t sound like a ton of speculation like happens with some of the other episodes with …other guests that they have… lol That being said, thanks for the extra layer of insight.
That episode is amazing. Another one that humbled me and helped me appreciate women more was the episode of the Talking Scripture podcast about Mary Magdalene.
I saw that first and this second. I was blown away by their video and so grateful for this one to. A must spend time with my notebook to record these insights. They are making me so excited to attend the temple and to spend time looking for all the connections since my eyes have been opened so much more!
I am no women but seeing my wife birth my 4 children is divine. Especially when I consider Alma 36:21 and the life giving power of the atonement of Jesus Christ. The pain seems to be swept away when my wife sees, hears, and holds our child nothing else matters. It’s amazing. The pain still lingered but the love surpasses it all
My mother is dying in the hospital, she had 7 boys and 1 girl, the amount of pure goodness this woman has produced is mind boggling to me, from this experience of watching her close to possibly going, I have had the most enormous realization, gratitude and increased reverence for individuals who birth and rear children. Truly a noble and heavenly attending cause.
I’ve mentally reframed my place in the epic of the plan of salvation symbolically as a woman. And I have seen so much truth and perspective that I haven’t received in looking in it as if I am just Adam alone. Men, you are Eve in the presentation of the endowment, the savior is Adam. Christ is the bridegroom. Men, you are also the bride. So much value in that perspective. There are so many layers that you can put yourself into and just find more and more light.
So beautiful, thank you for the lovely discussion! I love all things birth and baby. I have also felt the connection between the Tree of Life and the placenta, but these deeper thoughts of being Born Again or having a Rebirth clicked so much. And have made the Temple/The Tower/The Migdal/The Magdalene make so much more sense and ring more true. 😍
Maybe something for the next episode! When one of the soldiers pierced Christ’s side to confirm His death, “forthwith came there out blood and water” (John 19:34) - when a woman gives birth, she sheds blood and water.
I absolutely love the women of ward radio!❤ I believe you guys are a significant part of the immense gathering taking place because of the women of the church. Loved this episode! Bring on #2!!!
You should research a lady by the name of Margaret Barker. She has onitiated several biblical studies known as Temple Theology. She is NOT LDS. However, much of her studies and theology is very interesting and as LDS women you would find her writings and lectures very interesting!!
This gives a whole new meaning to this verse: “[All men and women] must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters; 26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.” Mosiah 27:25-26. I’ve also heard the temple described as reversing the Fall. Eve institutes the Fall, knowing there was no other way. Every child experiences the Fall through birth. It is through priesthood ordinances the Fall is reversed, and we are born again. Incidentally, when Jesus in Matt 7 talks about walking a strait and narrow way, this is symbolically represented by the narrow passage behind veil workers that leads to the Celestial room. It is the birth canal that leads back through the thistles and thorns and noxious weeds, back to the Garden, back to the tree of life.
39:37 Oh, Megan. I’m hugging you right now in my mind. Thank you for your beautiful openness and willingness to be vulnerable. You’re a freaking inspiration.❤
@_hey_its_Megan Megan yall should have follow up on this. Review what I dove into it's all connected with the Savior. The plan of salvation is perfect.
The symbolism of the veil and the change to not veiling anymore is so good. In a wedding, when is the point the bride takes off her veil? Right when the marriage is complete. If we are the brides, waiting for our bridegroom to come, and we have removed our veils, that must mean He is very shortly going to be here to complete the “wedding”.
You wonder what your place is because you don't have the Priesthood steps?! I'm a 63 year old life-long member, served in priesthood leadership for many years; sisters, your place in the church is so central that visible steps of progress wouldn't make a difference. You collectively are the stabilizing, centering, comforting, nurturing, beautifying and inspiring universal force of nature for everyone else!!! If you haven't heard priesthood leaders teach about Christ-like love, sacrifice and service simply by sharing stories about how individual sisters quietly care for others, just believe me, that's what motivates the brothers to do what they do. That's been my experience.
I remember watching General Conference and listening to the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles giving talks about being faithful to our Covenants, and that Marriage and Motherhood will not be denied to Women in the Church many times. My Patriarchal Blessing gives me hope that I will have that in my life. I remember years ago, attending a Fireside and the Temple President came and gave a talk about the purpose of the Temple. I remember meeting him before going home. I wanted to tell him that I enjoyed his talk very much. He thanked me for the compliment, and said that I will be married. I didn't have any thought or desire for him to say this. A week later, I talked to a friend who's Father was a Temple President. I remember asking my friend, "will all of Heavenly Father's Spirit Children be born into mortality before the Millennium"? I remember that her answer to me was , no. In Genesis Chapter 24, verse 65 it reads that Rebekah veiled herself before meeting Isaac. In Exodus Chapter 34, verses 33--35 it reads that Moses covered his face with a veil before speaking to the Children of Israel. I believe that our value and purpose as daughters of Heavenly Father should not be determined by wearing, or not wearing a veil in the Temple. I believe that wearing or not wearing a veil, should not determine our commitment to learn and serve in the Temple. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I converted from the Greek Orthodox Church, that I was baptized into as an infant. The Orthodox Church is full of symbolism in the Chapel, and during the Church service. The Priest carries both Chalices, which are wrapped inside linen cloths. He pronounces all Women and young Girls names with the title " Handmaid", and her first name before receiving the Sacrament, which they call the "Eucharist". In Genesis Chapter 16, verse 1 Hagar was Sarah's Handmaid. In Luke Chapter 1, verse 38 Mary referred herself as an Handmaid. In Doctrine and Covenants Section 90, verse 28, Vienna Jaques was called an Handmaid. In Doctrine and Covenants Section 132, verse 51, Emma Smith was called an Handmaid.
I don't think any married couple, especially the wife is lacking if they're not blessed with children. My wife has been unable to carry children to term. I have a hope that we'll get to raise those children in the millennium but finding peace in not being a father has made my realize that our children really aren't our children. They are our siblings, and earthly parents are entrusted to help our siblings get through this mortal probation successfully. Our own children will come later.
I can’t help but see the temple as a symbol of Heavenly Mother after watching this. 🤍 Thank you. It makes me wonder if our earthly mother helped bring us into this mortal life, then maybe our Eternal Mother in heaven might help bring us into our eternal life. So many things to ponder. Looking forward to the next episode! Glad this popped up in my feed 🙏🏽
Please continue with this! Beautiful. I actually liked the act of veiling in the temple- as Moses wore a veil after being in the presence of God. I see it as a form of dignity and godliness because we are capable of bearing life- bringing spirit children from God- partners with God. I saw it as both a symbol of modesty and power in the priesthood. Just some personal thoughts…❤
Consider that the symbol change may have a significant message to tell you. Beautiful as before , relevant to our understanding the comming of the Lord.
I went through the temple when I was 21 in 1977 and was going on a mission. When it came time to veil my face I remember feeling safe and loved fully protected through the atonement of Christ. I never felt less or unseen because I know my Heavenly Father always sees me. I am so grateful for you ladies and your insight. It has let me understand new things and added to my understanding of the gospel. I am a mother and wife. I gave birth to four children. I had mixed feelings and emotions about the experience but always felt grateful for it. Please continue to share your thoughts with us. Thanks
Kind of matching what Joy was saying about the veil, it seems to me that our Heavenly Mother would necessarily be every bit as proactive in helping us through the plan as our Heavenly Father, but in ways we we haven't been allowed to see clearly.
This discussion made me very emotional. I felt the spirit testifying several times. Thanks for sharing. I didn’t want to like or believe what you were discussing but it grabbed me and I enjoyed it immensely. Next time you are in the temple ask your husband the difference between the men’s and women’s initiatory. Women are special in God’s site.
AMAZING!!! I am spiritually geeking out over this! 🤩 Seriously, so so good. I 100% agree that childbirth is the most amazing and unique opportunity for women to come to know the Savior and His atonement better (whether that happens for us in this life or the next). I experienced natural (unmedicated) childbirth four times, and every time I absolutely hit a point where I felt like I could not do it anymore and was desperate for a way out - but just like the Savior, I realized I was literally the only one who could do this, and no one else could go through it for me. But I did have my husband (and midwife and doulas) who were like angels to me and strengthened me through it, just as the Savior was sent an angel to strengthen Him. But I was the only one who could sacrifice in that way for my babies. And because Christ did what only He could do, we can be born again. It's all so beautiful. ❤️ Edit: I also LOVE the emphasis that "Child" is our most important identity, and that in this allegory, we are the child, not the mother.
My wife will be giving birth for the first time here any day. We are going to try for an unmedicated birth. I know she can do it, but it won't be easy.
@@ameyers67I’ve done it both ways. The experience with the epidural “for me” was actually MORE enjoyable as I was able to maintain a calm demeanor and I was able to be aware of everything around me. So if a natural birth doesn’t happen you won’t need to feel any disappointment. It’s just a matter of preference. The Spirit just FLOWS into the room when the baby is born; new life sent from God in all its innocence and purity! Either way, it is designed to be a GLORIOUS moment! 😊
Really beautiful, Tikla 💜 I love the reframe that we are all supposed to see ourselves as children-yes, we’ve got to receive these ordinances; no one individual is required to administer them. As Joy said, this power/authority women have is radically decentralized compared to men’s priesthood, but it is no less necessary in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So grateful women are talking about this.
I studied to be a homebirth midwife. There’s a point where almost •every• woman would say, “I can’t do this anymore. Make it stop.” And, we would lovingly remind her that there is no going back at this point. My favorite painting is by Carl Bloch and it is one of the altar pieces of the angle buoying up Jesus in Gethsemane, because this is what I saw in all the homebirths I attended. These beautiful angel midwives and strong husbands buoying up these amazing women. Not one birth I’ve attended has been less than a miracle. Also interesting- when a woman is allowed to and is comfortable to freely move in labor, (especially in water births, where it’s easier to move into different positions) many times they end up in the “praying position.”
The veil always bothered me until Father reminded me of when Moses came down from the mountain and had to veil his face because the glory of God was still upon him. I realized that father sees us as holy being who are worthy of reverence.
After teaching temple prep for years, the information of symbolism is crucial to preparing for the endowment. Wonderful information gals! It Would be fun to get out journals and actually read of instances where symbolic pieces finally click and change one’s perception to a broader understanding.
Women are the protectors of the heart, the hearth (Hebrew meaning for both hearth and heart is center). Men protect the structure, the perimeter. ❤ good job ladies for bringing temple symbolism to light. 😊
I love that other women are receiving the same revelation I’ve been getting. It’s reassures me I’m not crazy, and I’m not making this stuff up, it’s truth from on high 🙌🏻 I’ve tried a couple times to talk about this with other women in my ward and they always look at me like I’m apostate. 😆
Most women love telling their whole birth stories. I had a similar experience as Joy did. My first was an emergency c-section and I was put completely under so I missed everything and had PTSD from what happened. My next 2 were born at home. Those were the most amazing, sacred, and healing experiences of my life. The only thing I don’t like talking about with birth is pooping myself. On its way out, the baby squeezes your colon like a toothpaste tube, so of course it happens. But it’s not pleasant 😂 My own hot take: the normal procedures hospitals have to help eliminate pain and force labor along are the very things that make birth a less spiritual experience for women. I think that in many situations, women would do better without any of the interventions. But the med profession doesn’t know how to prep a woman so she can give birth well, and they don’t care. They want to cut you open just to make more money and it’s sick. A good midwife is a godsend for us who were traumatized by hospital interventions and incompetence. Of course, there are always exceptions, but the exceptions have become the rule. Bring back the midwives!
@@-tikla I didn’t know that, but it warms my heart that they used to appreciate these women. They are healers and miracle workers on every level! if I weren’t in my current situation, I would be a midwife!
Hospitals have their place, but it does seem that many doctors are too eager to do a C-section and have very limited knowledge of traditional birthing techniques. One of my wife's doctors was completely unaware that the baby was head up and had not dropped. The hospital tried to send us home because they didn't believe us when we said her water had broken.😮
Our midwife referred to the placenta as the tree of life... I had assumed it was a church reference. It is so cool to know it is a midwife reference first. I think midwives as in the time of Moses when pharaoh met with them were actually much more than just women that knew how to deliver babies. I imagine that they hab a hierarchy for temple purposes as well, and the connection between birth and temple was much more literal for them. This is information i hadnt connected but had been feeling in a shallower degree so it is wonderful to have it validated and see it in terms i hadnt considered
Also dave butler suggested that the biblical reference for women submitting to men was better understood as women selecting them as a worthy partner...more inline with that temple recommend idea. I love it.
The temple is a 3 part space. The porch has two pillars. There is a straight and narrow passage. There is a holy of holies and inside that there is a tree. Sometimes water is shown flowing from the temple. Video isn’t live yet but we'll see if they hit on these thing. It's like one big nesting doll. The Father created a space in the mist of chose. He created a walled garden with a tree in it. He put the man and the woman in the garden. The garden is a temple. Our bodies are a temple. In the women's body is a sacred space. And we have yet to be borne into our final incarnation.
Loved this podcast!!!! Its extended my understanding of birth symbolism!!! So one of my thoughts about the veil for women kind of extends off of the sacred nature of what the veil covers. But as a healer and from the perspective of energy healers, who can see energy - men draw energy through the head and women draw energy from the feet which also speaks to our connection to Mother Earth. So for me personally when we used to veil our face, I felt very connected to my feminine energy. So in terms of prayer - the man is the head and the woman is so in tune with the wisdom of her body when she has her face veiled and tunes into her own body. So appreciate all of you women!!!’ Amazing podcast! Thank you!
So , I really love this allegory I I've studied scripture with this came back multiple time watching this. It's caused my to want to dig deeper I found what I would call allegory of intimacy being one as husband /wife with Christ. There is symbolism in that as it relates to the law of Moses. The law of sacrifice and law of chastity are inner connected. Sacrificial lamb pure no blemish. Wife as a lamb pure no blemish. Husband or priest with knife with the lamb on symbolism. The FLDS twisted this in their temple session w Warren Jeff's Abraham 1:11. My point being after deep diving I understood Alma 39 better Genesis 2:18-25, D and C 42:22-29,John 8:1-12. I thought I would share. Everything that we do though centers towards christ. That's the condensation of God described by Nephi guide it's an endowment in itself the vision of the tree of life. You go girls.
I know this might not make sense to some people. However my deep dive has shown how husband/wife becoming one is the same as becoming one with Christ it's like a couple coming to the altar. I'd like a followup on this too in the future getting men and women's input on a podcast.
I just got married last August and we can hardly wait to start our family. I could really use Ward Womens Radio thoughts on things you are doing/ would have liked to have had in place as you are preparing for a family. Whats most important physically, mentally, finically, spiritually? There is so much static coming from "the world", telling me, my desire to have children is foolish, and impossible". "Impossible" can you believe that?!? Your sound voices on the subjects are appreciated. Also, I see so many issues facing parents, especially mothers raising babies today. How do you focus on the ones that most impact the issues your facing? How do you mannage/ help your children deal with the issues, facing your children today? I believe your voices on Ward Radio have been the best, biggest, most positive, influential source of and for good in their lives and the lives of so many others. Thanks for all you do. As a few side thoughts Its not a plesent topic, nevertheless, prayerfully, tastefully, done, Pornography needs to be addressed. A more cheerful subject I believe "church" culture and etiquette, would be an intense, fun and interesting discussion topic for The Women of Ward Radio to tackle and do very well. And definitely include and discuss more in depth topics like modesty ,and its importance and effect on the "world" Also maybe a discussion topic on What do you wish non members knew about us members?
I really miss the veil over my face. My understanding of speaking with God is that Satan is unable to withstand being there, he leaves. When my whole head is veiled I feel like it’s just me and God under the veil and I can think and say anything I want to without the fear of Satan hearing. I understand Satan isn’t in the temple so it’s just symbolic for me. I do feel closer to God at that time.
I have never had a live birth - I had 4 miscarriages at about 10-12 weeks. My Pat. Blessing told me that my children would be true Ephraimites as I am. My husband and I adopted 2 boys from Korea (brothers) and the older boy's Pat. Blessing put him in Manasseh. I assume the other son is the same but he has not chosen to get a Pat. Blessing. So these sons, though I love them as I would if I had born them, are not the children mentioned in my Pat. Blessing. This made me wonder if I could still have those 4 children I lost. I made it a matter of prayer and fasting and prayer and took the question to the temple. I received my answer in the celestial room that I would, indeed, be able to have those children. I don't know if that means they will have to return to my womb, (I am presently 73) or that they will be given to me as (newborn) infants. I don't care, as long as I can have them and raise them. So I consider that we have 6 children. And not having children is definitely not a punishment. Part of the problem is that the human race is nearing what I think is the genetic limit of our race - we are getting weaker, genetically, and it causes lots of problems, like infertility. We also know that there are evil men in the world who are causing infertility through their drugs and immunizations. Not being able to have children is not a punishment. It is an experience we can learn from, just as giving birth is an experience to learn from. I also had another experience in the temple when I was asking why women were now unveiled in the temple. The Spirit told me that women had been "veiled" through much of history (most men and women throughout history didn't know or understand who women really are) and the Spirit said it was now time for women to be "unveiled" and to know who and what they really are - preparing us for wielding the power that we have. This was a powerful experience and had deeper meaning than I can express here.
This discussion made me very emotional. I felt the spirit testifying several times. Thanks for sharing. I didn’t want to like or believe what you were discussing but it grabbed me and I enjoyed it immensely.
I'll be watching for part two. Guys who are older and haven't found the right partners can also feel discouraged and begin to wonder if they will ever find their eternal companion.
I can’t wait for part 2. The veil being “lifted” has deep symbolism. What do you think it means that the women don’t have the veil down anymore? Hebrew wedding symbolism….
One homeopathic remedy for women that are feeling weak after delivering a child is to consume a portion of the placenta because of its rich nature of nutrients. I think it might be another interesting parallel to talk about how it can literally be life-saving for women to eat of the tree of life.
I can understand, culturally, why some of the changes were made, but it feels like we have lost some significant spritual dimensions in the name of equality.
I honestly believe the fact that women are now un-veiled in the temple is symbolic as well. I'm still trying to understand the symbolism, but it feels more significant to me than just caving to social pressures. Just the feeling I've had.
I don’t yet know how I feel about the unveiling of women in the temple…but I do miss veiling as it was the only time I felt safe to unmask myself inside the temple. It’s difficult for me to be myself when others are present. So I do miss that.
In reference to God being disappointed in not having a baby...He gave you this path. I think we and God (Father & Mother) made these plans for ourselves according to what we wanted to learn and gain here. He is not disappointed in you fulfilling the plan you made. You seem to be doing it with grace and beauty. I know it's hard to feel it, but you can trust Him no matter how it doesn't seem to feel like "the path." Thank you for your raw honesty here. We have all been blessed!
Wonderful episode, thanks! Now, if the amniotic sack is a veil then the temple counterpart of the midwife would be the temple worker at the veil, right? The midwife receives the baby and delivers it into the arms of the childs father, and after passing through the veil in the temple we are symbolically entering the presence of the Father. And another point, we are told in 2 Nephi 9:41 that the "the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there" and if this has reference to the veil of the temple (which I believe it could) that would mean that the temple worker at the veil as well as the midwife are both representing Christ.
I think there is something profoundly special about giving birth. And I think that’s why it brings profound sadness to women cannot do it due to health or circumstance. But you’re not less than. You’ve just been given a different trial in life to refine you. And there’s something special about that as well. And as long as you’re keeping your covenants all sorrow will be overshadowed by joy and all losses will be made up.
Someone commented that they had recently been pondering the thought of birth being an ordinance. I found that interesting because I have recently pondered the possibility of death being an ordinance. While listening to this great podcast, I wondered what your thoughts might be on death being another type of rebirth?
When I studied to be a homebirth midwife I learned that midwives in the Colonial times and before worked also as the hospice workers- they helped people come into •and• out of this world. I’ve been interested in becoming a death doula, too.
One of the most amazing church books I’ve ever read is called “beloved bridegroom” by Donna nielsen .. talks alot about this very topic .. game changer for temple worship
All that we learn and teach in the Church is to bring about the miracle of conversion. Let that be your focus. “We cannot wait for conversion to simply happen to our children. Accidental conversion is not a principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ.” Joy D. Jones
I love this episode, you four did a fabulous job with this topic. I don't always agree with the views shared on WR, from a scholarly perspective; but this topic was well done. I agree with all that you said -- as a feminist theorist and theologian and historian. There is much more I can share on this topic -- theologically and historically. I look forward to more from you gals.
We adopted our first two kids and then had them sealed to us, amazing spiritual experiences. Then we got pregnant, miracle baby. When he was born it was the same spirit as was there in the temple. The veil was thin.
We often quote Proverbs 3:5-6 5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. We never quote the following two verses, which are even more powerful": 7 ¶ Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil. 8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
❤ this discussion 😊 learned a beautiful understanding of we women, which we’ve needed in the world today. What a special way of looking at each other in this way. For the sister who mentioned her temple marriage was over after 9mos., mine ended after six weeks 😮🙏🏻 it stung, but once I had the full understanding (doctrine), It brought me closer to the Savior. Thank you Sisters, it’s so hard to find practicing Sisters within the church; you’re a rare find and I love it 💐
After hearing from JD Butler I concluded that the garden of Eden was a womb with the ambilical cord aligning with the river leading to the tree of life and amniotic fluid aligning to the mist. Being naked and innocent in both places.
@@SaxSpy maybe, in concept anyway. The parent gods of many ancient people are husband and wife and also brother and sister. So this concept isn't new. I'm not saying that Eden was literally a womb rather symbolically it was.
I will say this I’ve learned more about Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ , & Holy Ghost & plan of salvation as a father & my love as a father. Parenthood is eternal
We know very little of our Mother in Heaven. I don't what she does all day. I find it hard to think the God is running it all and she is just sitting there. I would not be suprised to one day find out that she is just as invovled in our lives as Heavenly Father is. What perfect Mother wouldn't be?
In hebrew wedding tradition there were specific times and places for the woman to he veiled, and times when she was unveiled. It is all a symbolic rendering of Christ's interaction with his people, hence he is the bridegroom and the church is the bride. So rather than be bummed that we aren't veiled, you could be excited that the marriage is moving forward. We are getting closer to unveiled interaction with our Savior. Beloved Bridegroom is a book that is super easy to read, and very helpful in understanding the temple rituals. 😊😊😊
One of my kids was born en caul. The sac didn’t break. Sometimes referred to as a mermaid birth. About 1 in 80,000 births are veiled births. Even fewer en caul. A miraculous pregnancy and delivery
I was told to concentrate only on the spirit when I went to the temple and nothing else… You don’t need a guide except for the spirit! I fasted for three days to be prepared for the temple so preparation is very important. I will never forget my first experience it was absolutely amazing.! What did you do in the morning that you were getting ready for your Temple experience, or the night before or that week? How did you prepare?
We need to de carful how we use the term “virgin” birth. In olden times a chased women who married (in the lords way)and was true and faithful remained chased as a Mother and wife, and could be referred to as my “virgin” or a “virgin” until her death. We know some of the polygamist patriarchs had “many virgins” meaning faithful righteous brides or wifes. In Mary’s case this reasoning can be implied as She was a virtuous woman, Faithful to her betrothed. Yet chosen as vessel for the Son of God. Luke 1:34-35 “and the POWER of the HIGHEST SHALL OVERSHADOW THEE: Therefore also that Holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God”! Could you write a better description of such a sacred and intimate experience? Any way we love Mary but don’t want to sound as ridiculous and shallow as our catholic and born again Christian friends
Latter day saints understanding of the gospel is beyond other christian.if you seat down ponder about what they teach they make sense the veil covering our memory is light compared to others who are not LDS.
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When I was in labour with my first baby, my husband gave me a blessing promising me several things. Amoungst that blessing he told me to study the symbolism between birth and the covenant and of how both involve blood, water and spirit. As a part of my study later on I came across Moses 6:60, which reads "For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified".
The woman (motherhood) is a portal from God to earth. The man (priesthood) is the portal back to God.
Yes! I heard this recently! Women (our mothers) make it possible to come through the veil to earth, and men (who hold the priesthood) assist us through the veil back to the Lord's presence. ❤️
The Two Trees!!! Article and video presentation by the same name by Valerie Hudson.
Also two veils. Christ rent the veil to put us into the temple as his seed, and in the temple we pass through the veil to be born of it.
Descending down the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and ascending up the Tree of Life. 🌳
Oh wow this is really interesting! I love this!❤ thank you for sharing this insight!
Such an interesting connection to temple and women. Thank you.
I actually had two thoughts as I listened.
1. When we do our family history we are researching our family tree, our origins or literally OUR Tree if Life. We then link, seal, bind our 'branches' in the temple.
2. Birth and rebirth. Most people speak of the 3 elements present at both which are blood, water and spirit. However there is a 4th element that is often overlooked, but just as important. It is the change of heart. Before a baby is born it receives its oxygen through the umbilical cord and the placenta acts as the fetus's lungs (literally the placenta is the breath of life). Oxygen bypasses the fetus's lungs and is filtered through two valves in the heart and pumped throughout its little body. When that baby is born and takes its first breaths of air directly to the lungs, those two valves in the heart begin to close and the heart literally goes through a change. It is one that cannot be reversed! And our spiritual change of heart should be a permanent one as well, for to reverse either one would be to die.
Just a couple more connections I'm sure you have made but just didn't have time to share everything ű
Marcie Murphy in Rexburg
Amazing, Marcie! - Katie (Doty) Jensen
Katie!! How ARE you?!! 🥰 What a delight to see your name💕
GREAT additional insight! Thanks for taking the time to expand my thoughts on this! Had you not, who knows how much longer it would have taken to come to me and my sisters whom I will be sharing it with! 😊
That explains why we hear so often about holes in babies' hearts!! That makes sense!!
My brother recently had his 8th child. And after James was born Jess held him and sucked out the amniotic fluid with her mouth to help him breathe. Sometimes we use one of those nose suckered things to suck out fluid from the babies lungs and mouth and nose...
Anyway it came to my mind as her mouth was on his amd then hebstarted to breath the wirds from the tempme and the creation story that after God formed Adam and placed him in the garden that he breathed into him the breath of life.
I won't be able to read or hear those words again without seeing the image of Jess with her mouth on James' to help him breath.
“President Joseph F. Smith, the sixth President of the Church, reported: “Joseph Smith taught the doctrine that the infant child that was laid away in death would come up in the resurrection as a child; and, pointing to the mother of a lifeless child, he said to her: ‘You will have the joy, the pleasure and satisfaction of nurturing this child, after its resurrection, until it reaches the full stature of its spirit.’ …”
When Moses came down from Sinai, the Israelites made him veil his face because they could not abide his countenance. The veil only covers that which is sacred so that mortals can endure it.
P. S. Megan, I wanted to give you a big hug the whole time. I'm so sorry you're starving to be a mother. You will be a tremendous mom some day.
Ever notice how often the Apostles refer to mothers as "Angels".
NT Wright makes the point that temples are by definition places where heaven and earth overlap.
When we stand in the prayer circle we become a mixed group of heavenly and earthly beings around the throne/alter praising God, like in Revelation.
This is why it bothers me that they keep changing/shortening the endowment experience. I feel like things are being lost like this powerful symbolism with veiling the women's faces.
That was such an amazing insight I got from this episode.
It's impossible to disappoint God by not having a baby when God hasn't given you a baby. God's plan and timing is better than ours. All women are mothers whether or not they've given birth. The key is to discover in what way and with whom God wants you to mother. I didn't have a mother most my life but in church, from primary to young womens to relief society, friends mothers and friends of the family I had many mothers.
Fantastic perspective.
I don’t want to be rude, but please don’t make motherhood on the level of a participation trophy. Motherhood involves huge sacrifice and commitment that is unmatched. These other relationships are good, but they aren’t motherhood. All women are *potential mothers, even if it doesn’t happen in this life. But this trend of calling all women mothers is unfortunate.
@@danjohnson8556I understand your point, but Sister Dew's talk from October 2001 supports the doctrine that all women are mothers.
@@danjohnson8556 i understand this i have children. Those i referd to did make commitments and sacrifices for me whereas the one who gave birth to me didn't. Eve was called the mother of all living before she ever had children. As you know raising children is hard. Those who don't have children of their own can be a great support to those who do.
@@justjamie6458 Yes, there is much more to being a good mother than giving birth. But women who have not either given birth or adopted and raised a child cannot claim motherhood. It reminds me of the concept of ‘stolen valor’. Not everyone who is female needs to be praised as a ‘mother’. It isn’t true, therefore we shouldn’t say it, even if meant with compassion. Mother’s day is for mothers. There are other days to recognize other women.
In our ward we seriously stopped having daddy-daughter date activities with the youth because one girl didn’t have a father in the home and it would make her feel bad. That is NOT what we should be doing as a society. Compassion must be tethered to truth.
The Latter-Day Saint interpretation and understanding of Christianity is so vastly deep and comprehensive in its theology, I find myself regularly humbled.
Indeed as Alma said "All things testify there is a God"...
Except that the LDS theology contradicts just about everything Jesus said in the bible. Beware! Trusting in temple ceremonies and a phoney priesthood authority will lead you to hell.
@@kendarcie6613 Except that Reformed theology, and typical Evangelical talking points through Anti-Mormon rhetoric and tropes contradicts and denies everything Christ taught in the bible. Beware! Trusting false teachers and pissant armchair theologians like you who hold to phony testimony and authority will lead you down the path of deception and lies.
@@kendarcie6613
It does not contradict what Jesus said, but it contradicts the single scripture that Luther invented in the 16th century to attack the Catholic Church, that is very clear in the books that I have read from the evangelical Protestants themselves, all 5 alone is evidence of Luther's rebellion towards Catholicism and I am not defending Catholicism, but, that is the truth, and since in a certain way we have something structurally and at the same time not with Catholicism, your anti-LDS radar is manifested in a certain way by certain arguments that we handle and that is why, the mere scrutiny is the problem, Arminians against Calvinists and all evangelicals, well, that is the truth.
@@TheRegimentalscot 😆 Mormonism is to Christianity, what reddit fan fiction is to things like Star Wars. Not canon; often ridiculous and yet entertaining in ways it never intended.
And above we have demonstrated by the comments the absolute confidence shown by the absolute ignorant.
My sister encapsulates placentas to help the morhers regain some of the hormones they made while they were pregnant. I've learned from her that when a woman is pregnant, the placenta takes charge of both the baby's hormones AND THE MOTHER'S HORMONES. (That is why post partum can sometimes be so devastating, because when the placenta is delivered with the baby, the mother's body may take a while to ramp up her own hormone control and creation.)
But in regard to this episode, isnt it fascinating to consider that the tree of life controls both the mother and the child? It is as if God is represented by the tree/placenta and he dwells with us while we create life from a seed. He enabled me to give life, and I often felt like a bystander while my body performed task after task, and I just watched in awe as it happened.
The placenta is not part of the woman or of the baby, i feel that t is a symbol of God with us.
I love this thought, could it also be both or all three? Symbols are like that. They take on many meaning for futher understanding.
My son was born with a veil. I remember the doctor telling me how rare it was. He actually became quite teary. But I remember seeing him pull it back over my son’s head. Amazing ❤
Megan, I married at 45. Having my own children was not possible. I do get to mother two great boys (now young adults) whom I claim as my own since marrying their father. I have grieved not having my own children- not being able to experience pregnancy and birth- but God is not punishing me for that. Living the covenants I've made with Heavenly Father throughout my life reassures me that God knows the desires of my heart and what I would have done if I had the opportunity.
I participated in an ancient Native American sweat lodge ceremony. The lodge is a dome half buried in the ground. It represents mother earth, or the womb. When you enter, you crawl into it. When you come out, you crawl out a new person. The symbolic parallels with our temple ceremonies are striking. But I think about that often when I enter the temple.
Holy cow, the connections
Very cool
Meanwhile, Jesus says HE is the living Gospel by which all men are saved by coming directly to Himself. Unless you are born again you will die in your sins.
@@kendarcie6613 100%. Often Jesus spoke in allegory and symbolism to teach His disciples the deeper meanings behind His plan, His doctrine, His role, and strengthen our relationship, dependency, and commitment to Him through these teachings and acts - in ways that broke through linguistic limitations. We are born again through Christ, and merely saying "I'm born again" and going through the symbolic act of being born again has different impacts on our psyche. All truth is His truth, and we seek after that truth wherever it may be. Many of His followers heard His symbolic truths and rejected Him, and even considered His teachings blasphemous, because their surface belief in Him couldn't understand the symbolic act of eating His Flesh and Blood (see John 6). "Whoever has ears, let them hear"
@@cheezedaze I disagree. There is nothing symbolic about actually meeting Jesus. We see Jesus encountering people, which results in some people abandoning all to follow Him, while others do not. Personal salvation, and rescue from hell, are found only in personally meeting Jesus and having your heart changed by HIS love on the cross to atone for ALL your sins, and then rising from the dead as the one and ONLY LORD GOD. Mormon temple ceremonies, symbolism, and fake human authority, do not have ANYTHING to do with a person being born again.
I never married and haven’t had kids. I have personally been promised that the Lord will make it right for me….I feel strongly it will be in the Millenium.
Also, note that Adam called Eve the Mother of all living BEFORE she had children.
Same! The trial of it that is hard is other family members who approach me with an attitude of mourning for my loss. I have such a strong faith of not just the restoration of the Gospel but also the Gospel of Restoration. 😊
Tikla is pretty much the type of woman that Missionaries talk about finding once they get home. I think the Men of the Church wish that the Women of the Church would dive deeper into the Doctrines of the Gospel like this.
Verily verily Ward radio says unto you, if all women had been, were, will be, like unto Tikla Fife, the powers of Satan would be shaken forever.
As a woman who served a mission, I would say there are many rms who don’t deep dive ever
Too true!!😢
I agree, being single and having studied - I have a hard time having a conversation with many people, and specifically single women because it seems to be quite intimidating.
As a man of the church, I second this notion.
Love this conversation! I feel so lucky in St George, Utah, to have two temples within 7 minutes of each other. For quite a while, I went to the temple Tuesdays through Saturday for many months. This focused journey completely changed my understanding of the temple, its symbols, its purpose., and my understanding of myself. Truly, it is Jacob’s ladder, a conduit between earth and heaven.
As the daughter of a midwife, I loved this episode.
Same! This was such a spiritually uplifting episode.
This is spot on ladies! This is my most favorite episode of Ward Radio where they have had the ladies host the show.
I took an online BYU Id Religion Class called Eternal Families. It was based on each paragraph of the Proclamation of the Family. Everything you are teaching us about being born again in our mother's womb and comparing it to the temple, etc, was taught in this class. It was amazing! We revere mothers and the process of having a child is sacred, and we revere a babies life as sacred as well, and we don't support abortion because of how each child's life is sacred.
We all passed through a woman (veil) to get from our premortal world to this one.
You guys HAVE to see the episode that the Joseph brothers did on their channel “the stick of Joseph” called “the hidden meaning of the ten virgins”
It’s actually way more in depth than just explaining about the ten virgins and explains why we do what we do in the temple the way that we do it. It is so good. Tons of scriptures quoted. Explains the veil among tons of other things. And really it doesn’t sound like a ton of speculation like happens with some of the other episodes with …other guests that they have… lol
That being said, thanks for the extra layer of insight.
That episode is amazing.
Another one that humbled me and helped me appreciate women more was the episode of the Talking Scripture podcast about Mary Magdalene.
I saw that first and this second. I was blown away by their video and so grateful for this one to. A must spend time with my notebook to record these insights. They are making me so excited to attend the temple and to spend time looking for all the connections since my eyes have been opened so much more!
Thanks for mentioning! I will go view these!
This is my favorite Ward Radio episode. I loved listening to you ladies.
More please.❤🎉😂
I am no women but seeing my wife birth my 4 children is divine. Especially when I consider Alma 36:21 and the life giving power of the atonement of Jesus Christ.
The pain seems to be swept away when my wife sees, hears, and holds our child nothing else matters. It’s amazing. The pain still lingered but the love surpasses it all
My mother is dying in the hospital, she had 7 boys and 1 girl, the amount of pure goodness this woman has produced is mind boggling to me, from this experience of watching her close to possibly going, I have had the most enormous realization, gratitude and increased reverence for individuals who birth and rear children. Truly a noble and heavenly attending cause.
I’ve mentally reframed my place in the epic of the plan of salvation symbolically as a woman. And I have seen so much truth and perspective that I haven’t received in looking in it as if I am just Adam alone. Men, you are Eve in the presentation of the endowment, the savior is Adam. Christ is the bridegroom. Men, you are also the bride. So much value in that perspective. There are so many layers that you can put yourself into and just find more and more light.
Yes!
💯
Thank you for sharing!!
I'm sharing on Twitter!
So beautiful, thank you for the lovely discussion! I love all things birth and baby. I have also felt the connection between the Tree of Life and the placenta, but these deeper thoughts of being Born Again or having a Rebirth clicked so much. And have made the Temple/The Tower/The Migdal/The Magdalene make so much more sense and ring more true. 😍
Maybe something for the next episode! When one of the soldiers pierced Christ’s side to confirm His death, “forthwith came there out blood and water” (John 19:34) - when a woman gives birth, she sheds blood and water.
Oooh this is great! I wish I'd seen this before we recorded part 2! ❤
I absolutely love the women of ward radio!❤ I believe you guys are a significant part of the immense gathering taking place because of the women of the church.
Loved this episode! Bring on #2!!!
You should research a lady by the name of Margaret Barker. She has onitiated several biblical studies known as Temple Theology. She is NOT LDS. However, much of her studies and theology is very interesting and as LDS women you would find her writings and lectures very interesting!!
I had a spiritual experience in the temple 3 years ago that made these connections come alive for me. I love the temple!❤
This gives a whole new meaning to this verse:
“[All men and women] must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;
26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.” Mosiah 27:25-26.
I’ve also heard the temple described as reversing the Fall. Eve institutes the Fall, knowing there was no other way. Every child experiences the Fall through birth. It is through priesthood ordinances the Fall is reversed, and we are born again. Incidentally, when Jesus in Matt 7 talks about walking a strait and narrow way, this is symbolically represented by the narrow passage behind veil workers that leads to the Celestial room. It is the birth canal that leads back through the thistles and thorns and noxious weeds, back to the Garden, back to the tree of life.
I love your insight
39:37 Oh, Megan. I’m hugging you right now in my mind. Thank you for your beautiful openness and willingness to be vulnerable. You’re a freaking inspiration.❤
Hugging you back, friend! Thank you! You have no idea how much this comment means to me. Thank you so much. ❤
You go girl. I would love to see a followup with this. I dove deeper on this recently.
@_hey_its_Megan Megan yall should have follow up on this. Review what I dove into it's all connected with the Savior. The plan of salvation is perfect.
The symbolism of the veil and the change to not veiling anymore is so good. In a wedding, when is the point the bride takes off her veil? Right when the marriage is complete. If we are the brides, waiting for our bridegroom to come, and we have removed our veils, that must mean He is very shortly going to be here to complete the “wedding”.
Yes!! I am learning that there is a lot to this.
Whoa!!!🤯
You wonder what your place is because you don't have the Priesthood steps?! I'm a 63 year old life-long member, served in priesthood leadership for many years; sisters, your place in the church is so central that visible steps of progress wouldn't make a difference. You collectively are the stabilizing, centering, comforting, nurturing, beautifying and inspiring universal force of nature for everyone else!!!
If you haven't heard priesthood leaders teach about Christ-like love, sacrifice and service simply by sharing stories about how individual sisters quietly care for others, just believe me, that's what motivates the brothers to do what they do. That's been my experience.
I remember watching General Conference and listening to the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles giving talks about being faithful to our Covenants, and that Marriage and Motherhood will not be denied to Women in the Church many times. My Patriarchal Blessing gives me hope that I will have that in my life. I remember years ago, attending a Fireside and the Temple President came and gave a talk about the purpose of the Temple. I remember meeting him before going home. I wanted to tell him that I enjoyed his talk very much. He thanked me for the compliment, and said that I will be married. I didn't have any thought or desire for him to say this. A week later, I talked to a friend who's Father was a Temple President. I remember asking my friend, "will all of Heavenly Father's Spirit Children be born into mortality before the Millennium"? I remember that her answer to me was , no. In Genesis Chapter 24, verse 65 it reads that Rebekah veiled herself before meeting Isaac. In Exodus Chapter 34, verses 33--35 it reads that Moses covered his face with a veil before speaking to the Children of Israel. I believe that our value and purpose as daughters of Heavenly Father should not be determined by wearing, or not wearing a veil in the Temple. I believe that wearing or not wearing a veil, should not determine our commitment to learn and serve in the Temple. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I converted from the Greek Orthodox Church, that I was baptized into as an infant. The Orthodox Church is full of symbolism in the Chapel, and during the Church service. The Priest carries both Chalices, which are wrapped inside linen cloths. He pronounces all Women and young Girls names with the title " Handmaid", and her first name before receiving the Sacrament, which they call the "Eucharist". In Genesis Chapter 16, verse 1 Hagar was Sarah's Handmaid. In Luke Chapter 1, verse 38 Mary referred herself as an Handmaid. In Doctrine and Covenants Section 90, verse 28, Vienna Jaques was called an Handmaid. In Doctrine and Covenants Section 132, verse 51, Emma Smith was called an Handmaid.
Oh my! My temple experience has been TRANSFORMED!!! ♥♥♥
I heard a rabbi say that womb in Hebrew means sanctuary. I think that is very powerful. With strong temple symbolism
So cool! Thanks for sharing!
I believe this is the single best episode of Ward Radio I have seen since I started watching!
I don't think any married couple, especially the wife is lacking if they're not blessed with children. My wife has been unable to carry children to term. I have a hope that we'll get to raise those children in the millennium but finding peace in not being a father has made my realize that our children really aren't our children. They are our siblings, and earthly parents are entrusted to help our siblings get through this mortal probation successfully. Our own children will come later.
Beautiful perspective
I can’t help but see the temple as a symbol of Heavenly Mother after watching this. 🤍 Thank you.
It makes me wonder if our earthly mother helped bring us into this mortal life, then maybe our Eternal Mother in heaven might help bring us into our eternal life. So many things to ponder. Looking forward to the next episode! Glad this popped up in my feed 🙏🏽
Please continue with this! Beautiful. I actually liked the act of veiling in the temple- as Moses wore a veil after being in the presence of God. I see it as a form of dignity and godliness because we are capable of bearing life- bringing spirit children from God- partners with God. I saw it as both a symbol of modesty and power in the priesthood. Just some personal thoughts…❤
Consider that the symbol change may have a significant message to tell you. Beautiful as before , relevant to our understanding the comming of the Lord.
I went through the temple when I was 21 in 1977 and was going on a mission. When it came time to veil my face I remember feeling safe and loved fully protected through the atonement of Christ. I never felt less or unseen because I know my Heavenly Father always sees me. I am so grateful for you ladies and your insight. It has let me understand new things and added to my understanding of the gospel. I am a mother and wife. I gave birth to four children. I had mixed feelings and emotions about the experience but always felt grateful for it. Please continue to share your thoughts with us. Thanks
Simply Awesome. Always learning something new about the Temple and the Gospel. Love how enriching symbolism is within our faith.
Kind of matching what Joy was saying about the veil, it seems to me that our Heavenly Mother would necessarily be every bit as proactive in helping us through the plan as our Heavenly Father, but in ways we we haven't been allowed to see clearly.
This discussion made me very emotional. I felt the spirit testifying several times.
Thanks for sharing. I didn’t want to like or believe what you were discussing but it grabbed me and I enjoyed it immensely.
Next time you are in the temple ask your husband the difference between the men’s and women’s initiatory. Women are special in God’s site.
This was beautiful, thank you!
I would love to get a copy of all of the symbolisms that Tikla had prepared but wasn’t able to present.
I appreciate this video - not just for the content - but because my son was born yesterday! Great insight to an already amazing experience!
Congratulations!
AMAZING!!! I am spiritually geeking out over this! 🤩 Seriously, so so good. I 100% agree that childbirth is the most amazing and unique opportunity for women to come to know the Savior and His atonement better (whether that happens for us in this life or the next). I experienced natural (unmedicated) childbirth four times, and every time I absolutely hit a point where I felt like I could not do it anymore and was desperate for a way out - but just like the Savior, I realized I was literally the only one who could do this, and no one else could go through it for me. But I did have my husband (and midwife and doulas) who were like angels to me and strengthened me through it, just as the Savior was sent an angel to strengthen Him. But I was the only one who could sacrifice in that way for my babies. And because Christ did what only He could do, we can be born again. It's all so beautiful. ❤️
Edit: I also LOVE the emphasis that "Child" is our most important identity, and that in this allegory, we are the child, not the mother.
I call it the Gethsemane moment 🥹
@@-tikla love that 💗
My wife will be giving birth for the first time here any day. We are going to try for an unmedicated birth. I know she can do it, but it won't be easy.
@@ameyers67 oh, I'm so excited for you both! It's an incredibly empowering experience
@@ameyers67I’ve done it both ways. The experience with the epidural “for me” was actually MORE enjoyable as I was able to maintain a calm demeanor and I was able to be aware of everything around me. So if a natural birth doesn’t happen you won’t need to feel any disappointment. It’s just a matter of preference. The Spirit just FLOWS into the room when the baby is born; new life sent from God in all its innocence and purity! Either way, it is designed to be a GLORIOUS moment! 😊
Really beautiful, Tikla 💜 I love the reframe that we are all supposed to see ourselves as children-yes, we’ve got to receive these ordinances; no one individual is required to administer them. As Joy said, this power/authority women have is radically decentralized compared to men’s priesthood, but it is no less necessary in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So grateful women are talking about this.
The umbilical chord and the covenants we we make bind us to God and our family..
I studied to be a homebirth midwife. There’s a point where almost •every• woman would say, “I can’t do this anymore. Make it stop.” And, we would lovingly remind her that there is no going back at this point.
My favorite painting is by Carl Bloch and it is one of the altar pieces of the angle buoying up Jesus in Gethsemane, because this is what I saw in all the homebirths I attended. These beautiful angel midwives and strong husbands buoying up these amazing women.
Not one birth I’ve attended has been less than a miracle.
Also interesting- when a woman is allowed to and is comfortable to freely move in labor, (especially in water births, where it’s easier to move into different positions) many times they end up in the “praying position.”
The veil always bothered me until Father reminded me of when Moses came down from the mountain and had to veil his face because the glory of God was still upon him. I realized that father sees us as holy being who are worthy of reverence.
After teaching temple prep for years, the information of symbolism is crucial to preparing for the endowment. Wonderful information gals! It
Would be fun to get out journals and actually read of instances where symbolic pieces finally click and change one’s perception to a broader understanding.
Luke 23:29 is one scripture regarding barren women and how God will bless them! Beautiful video! Thank you 🙏
Women are the protectors of the heart, the hearth (Hebrew meaning for both hearth and heart is center). Men protect the structure, the perimeter. ❤ good job ladies for bringing temple symbolism to light. 😊
I love that other women are receiving the same revelation I’ve been getting. It’s reassures me I’m not crazy, and I’m not making this stuff up, it’s truth from on high 🙌🏻 I’ve tried a couple times to talk about this with other women in my ward and they always look at me like I’m apostate. 😆
Me too. It's exalarting to no were not alone! ❤
Most women love telling their whole birth stories. I had a similar experience as Joy did. My first was an emergency c-section and I was put completely under so I missed everything and had PTSD from what happened. My next 2 were born at home. Those were the most amazing, sacred, and healing experiences of my life. The only thing I don’t like talking about with birth is pooping myself. On its way out, the baby squeezes your colon like a toothpaste tube, so of course it happens. But it’s not pleasant 😂
My own hot take: the normal procedures hospitals have to help eliminate pain and force labor along are the very things that make birth a less spiritual experience for women. I think that in many situations, women would do better without any of the interventions. But the med profession doesn’t know how to prep a woman so she can give birth well, and they don’t care. They want to cut you open just to make more money and it’s sick. A good midwife is a godsend for us who were traumatized by hospital interventions and incompetence. Of course, there are always exceptions, but the exceptions have become the rule. Bring back the midwives!
In 1915 the RS magazine referred to midwives as the "high priestesses in the chamber of birth." and midwife was a calling in the church!
@@-tikla I didn’t know that, but it warms my heart that they used to appreciate these women. They are healers and miracle workers on every level!
if I weren’t in my current situation, I would be a midwife!
Hospitals have their place, but it does seem that many doctors are too eager to do a C-section and have very limited knowledge of traditional birthing techniques.
One of my wife's doctors was completely unaware that the baby was head up and had not dropped. The hospital tried to send us home because they didn't believe us when we said her water had broken.😮
@@pythonista466I had the same experience.
This was so amazing! I would love to hear the rest of what you have to say! Will you be posting a second part?
Our midwife referred to the placenta as the tree of life... I had assumed it was a church reference. It is so cool to know it is a midwife reference first. I think midwives as in the time of Moses when pharaoh met with them were actually much more than just women that knew how to deliver babies. I imagine that they hab a hierarchy for temple purposes as well, and the connection between birth and temple was much more literal for them. This is information i hadnt connected but had been feeling in a shallower degree so it is wonderful to have it validated and see it in terms i hadnt considered
Also dave butler suggested that the biblical reference for women submitting to men was better understood as women selecting them as a worthy partner...more inline with that temple recommend idea. I love it.
The temple is a 3 part space. The porch has two pillars. There is a straight and narrow passage. There is a holy of holies and inside that there is a tree. Sometimes water is shown flowing from the temple.
Video isn’t live yet but we'll see if they hit on these thing.
It's like one big nesting doll. The Father created a space in the mist of chose. He created a walled garden with a tree in it. He put the man and the woman in the garden. The garden is a temple.
Our bodies are a temple. In the women's body is a sacred space. And we have yet to be borne into our final incarnation.
It's all impossibly deep 💗
Beautiful
Loved this podcast!!!! Its extended my understanding of birth symbolism!!!
So one of my thoughts about the veil for women kind of extends off of the sacred nature of what the veil covers. But as a healer and from the perspective of energy healers, who can see energy - men draw energy through the head and women draw energy from the feet which also speaks to our connection to Mother Earth. So for me personally when we used to veil our face, I felt very connected to my feminine energy. So in terms of prayer - the man is the head and the woman is so in tune with the wisdom of her body when she has her face veiled and tunes into her own body.
So appreciate all of you women!!!’ Amazing podcast! Thank you!
I love this insight. Thanks for sharing.
I missed veiling my face. It was very special for me, and I was very disappointed when it got taken away. I had special moments under that veil!
There are beautiful and exciting reasons for this change. It is another symbol for us to ponder. Ask why.❤
How many people go to the temple with the temple, "I know not save the Lord commanded me"?
We need to be thinking about why we are in the temple.
So , I really love this allegory I I've studied scripture with this came back multiple time watching this. It's caused my to want to dig deeper I found what I would call allegory of intimacy being one as husband /wife with Christ. There is symbolism in that as it relates to the law of Moses. The law of sacrifice and law of chastity are inner connected. Sacrificial lamb pure no blemish. Wife as a lamb pure no blemish. Husband or priest with knife with the lamb on symbolism. The FLDS twisted this in their temple session w Warren Jeff's Abraham 1:11. My point being after deep diving I understood Alma 39 better Genesis 2:18-25, D and C 42:22-29,John 8:1-12. I thought I would share. Everything that we do though centers towards christ. That's the condensation of God described by Nephi guide it's an endowment in itself the vision of the tree of life. You go girls.
I know this might not make sense to some people. However my deep dive has shown how husband/wife becoming one is the same as becoming one with Christ it's like a couple coming to the altar. I'd like a followup on this too in the future getting men and women's input on a podcast.
I just got married last August and we can hardly wait to start our family. I could really use Ward Womens Radio thoughts on things you are doing/ would have liked to have had in place as you are preparing for a family. Whats most important physically, mentally, finically, spiritually? There is so much static coming from "the world", telling me, my desire to have children is foolish, and impossible". "Impossible" can you believe that?!? Your sound voices on the subjects are appreciated. Also, I see so many issues facing parents, especially mothers raising babies today. How do you focus on the ones that most impact the issues your facing? How do you mannage/ help your children deal with the issues, facing your children today? I believe your voices on Ward Radio have been the best, biggest, most positive, influential source of and for good in their lives and the lives of so many others. Thanks for all you do.
As a few side thoughts
Its not a plesent topic, nevertheless, prayerfully, tastefully, done, Pornography needs to be addressed. A more cheerful subject I believe "church" culture and etiquette, would be an intense, fun and interesting discussion topic for The Women of Ward Radio to tackle and do very well. And definitely include and discuss more in depth topics like modesty ,and its importance and effect on the "world"
Also maybe a discussion topic on What do you wish non members knew about us members?
I really miss the veil over my face. My understanding of speaking with God is that Satan is unable to withstand being there, he leaves. When my whole head is veiled I feel like it’s just me and God under the veil and I can think and say anything I want to without the fear of Satan hearing. I understand Satan isn’t in the temple so it’s just symbolic for me. I do feel closer to God at that time.
I have never had a live birth - I had 4 miscarriages at about 10-12 weeks. My Pat. Blessing told me that my children would be true Ephraimites as I am. My husband and I adopted 2 boys from Korea (brothers) and the older boy's Pat. Blessing put him in Manasseh. I assume the other son is the same but he has not chosen to get a Pat. Blessing. So these sons, though I love them as I would if I had born them, are not the children mentioned in my Pat. Blessing. This made me wonder if I could still have those 4 children I lost. I made it a matter of prayer and fasting and prayer and took the question to the temple. I received my answer in the celestial room that I would, indeed, be able to have those children. I don't know if that means they will have to return to my womb, (I am presently 73) or that they will be given to me as (newborn) infants. I don't care, as long as I can have them and raise them. So I consider that we have 6 children.
And not having children is definitely not a punishment. Part of the problem is that the human race is nearing what I think is the genetic limit of our race - we are getting weaker, genetically, and it causes lots of problems, like infertility. We also know that there are evil men in the world who are causing infertility through their drugs and immunizations. Not being able to have children is not a punishment. It is an experience we can learn from, just as giving birth is an experience to learn from.
I also had another experience in the temple when I was asking why women were now unveiled in the temple. The Spirit told me that women had been "veiled" through much of history (most men and women throughout history didn't know or understand who women really are) and the Spirit said it was now time for women to be "unveiled" and to know who and what they really are - preparing us for wielding the power that we have. This was a powerful experience and had deeper meaning than I can express here.
This discussion made me very emotional. I felt the spirit testifying several times.
Thanks for sharing. I didn’t want to like or believe what you were discussing but it grabbed me and I enjoyed it immensely.
I'll be watching for part two. Guys who are older and haven't found the right partners can also feel discouraged and begin to wonder if they will ever find their eternal companion.
Thank you for this beautiful presentation. I look forward to part 2.
I can’t wait for part 2.
The veil being “lifted” has deep symbolism. What do you think it means that the women don’t have the veil down anymore? Hebrew wedding symbolism….
Yes!
One homeopathic remedy for women that are feeling weak after delivering a child is to consume a portion of the placenta because of its rich nature of nutrients. I think it might be another interesting parallel to talk about how it can literally be life-saving for women to eat of the tree of life.
I think it's cool that Joseph Smith was born a veiled birth/caul.
Wow 😮
I can understand, culturally, why some of the changes were made, but it feels like we have lost some significant spritual dimensions in the name of equality.
I honestly believe the fact that women are now un-veiled in the temple is symbolic as well. I'm still trying to understand the symbolism, but it feels more significant to me than just caving to social pressures. Just the feeling I've had.
I don’t yet know how I feel about the unveiling of women in the temple…but I do miss veiling as it was the only time I felt safe to unmask myself inside the temple. It’s difficult for me to be myself when others are present. So I do miss that.
I'm not convinced that the change was due to social pressure, but I do miss veiling. The church is not reactionary
The changes were 100% symbolic, think Jewish wedding symbology
@@brookecrowther8387 this is exactly what is happening.
I love hearing from Tikla. She’s always dropping truth bombs and deep doctrine.
It’s not “deep Doctrine“ that has a bad connotation. It is sacred and concealed for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.
In reference to God being disappointed in not having a baby...He gave you this path. I think we and God (Father & Mother) made these plans for ourselves according to what we wanted to learn and gain here. He is not disappointed in you fulfilling the plan you made. You seem to be doing it with grace and beauty. I know it's hard to feel it, but you can trust Him no matter how it doesn't seem to feel like "the path." Thank you for your raw honesty here. We have all been blessed!
Wonderful episode, thanks! Now, if the amniotic sack is a veil then the temple counterpart of the midwife would be the temple worker at the veil, right? The midwife receives the baby and delivers it into the arms of the childs father, and after passing through the veil in the temple we are symbolically entering the presence of the Father. And another point, we are told in 2 Nephi 9:41 that the "the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there" and if this has reference to the veil of the temple (which I believe it could) that would mean that the temple worker at the veil as well as the midwife are both representing Christ.
Beautiful ❤️
AAAAAA-MAZINGGGGG. PART TWO PLEASEEEEEEEEE 🙏🏻
The first baby really does rend that veil. 😳
I think there is something profoundly special about giving birth. And I think that’s why it brings profound sadness to women cannot do it due to health or circumstance. But you’re not less than. You’ve just been given a different trial in life to refine you. And there’s something special about that as well. And as long as you’re keeping your covenants all sorrow will be overshadowed by joy and all losses will be made up.
❤
Someone commented that they had recently been pondering the thought of birth being an ordinance. I found that interesting because I have recently pondered the possibility of death being an ordinance. While listening to this great podcast, I wondered what your thoughts might be on death being another type of rebirth?
When I studied to be a homebirth midwife I learned that midwives in the Colonial times and before worked also as the hospice workers- they helped people come into •and• out of this world. I’ve been interested in becoming a death doula, too.
I dig this we need more women groups, I'm just a dude learning. symbolism is awesome birth is awesome temples are awesome we need more.
One of the most amazing church books I’ve ever read is called “beloved bridegroom” by Donna nielsen .. talks alot about this very topic .. game changer for temple worship
Yes! So, so good!
All that we learn and teach in the Church is to bring about the miracle of conversion. Let that be your focus.
“We cannot wait for conversion to simply happen to our children. Accidental conversion is not a principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ.” Joy D. Jones
I love this episode, you four did a fabulous job with this topic. I don't always agree with the views shared on WR, from a scholarly perspective; but this topic was well done. I agree with all that you said -- as a feminist theorist and theologian and historian. There is much more I can share on this topic -- theologically and historically. I look forward to more from you gals.
We adopted our first two kids and then had them sealed to us, amazing spiritual experiences. Then we got pregnant, miracle baby. When he was born it was the same spirit as was there in the temple. The veil was thin.
We often quote Proverbs 3:5-6
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
We never quote the following two verses, which are even more powerful":
7 ¶ Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil. 8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
😮❤
Loved this. Didn’t know there was a female panel so cool
I wish the ladies would let the blond lady talk more and let her share everything she was steady to.
❤ this discussion 😊 learned a beautiful understanding of we women, which we’ve needed in the world today. What a special way of looking at each other in this way. For the sister who mentioned her temple marriage was over after 9mos., mine ended after six weeks 😮🙏🏻 it stung, but once I had the full understanding (doctrine), It brought me closer to the Savior. Thank you Sisters, it’s so hard to find practicing Sisters within the church; you’re a rare find and I love it 💐
After hearing from JD Butler I concluded that the garden of Eden was a womb with the ambilical cord aligning with the river leading to the tree of life and amniotic fluid aligning to the mist. Being naked and innocent in both places.
so eve was a twin that came from adam?
@@SaxSpy maybe, in concept anyway. The parent gods of many ancient people are husband and wife and also brother and sister. So this concept isn't new. I'm not saying that Eden was literally a womb rather symbolically it was.
Jody stoddard says the same thing . Gsreden was a womb .
@@SaxSpyno
Jody stoddard says the same thing . Garden was a womb.
I will say this I’ve learned more about Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ , & Holy Ghost & plan of salvation as a father & my love as a father. Parenthood is eternal
Wow 😲 great episode!
We know very little of our Mother in Heaven. I don't what she does all day. I find it hard to think the God is running it all and she is just sitting there. I would not be suprised to one day find out that she is just as invovled in our lives as Heavenly Father is. What perfect Mother wouldn't be?
I agree! 💯
Definitely need more on this topic. Loving it!
May Margaret Barker smile upon you.
I miss the veiling in the Temple. It always felt so holy. Like a holy spirit floating in sacred space.
Me too! God puts a veil over that which is most sacred. I always felt so special when asked to veil.
In hebrew wedding tradition there were specific times and places for the woman to he veiled, and times when she was unveiled. It is all a symbolic rendering of Christ's interaction with his people, hence he is the bridegroom and the church is the bride.
So rather than be bummed that we aren't veiled, you could be excited that the marriage is moving forward. We are getting closer to unveiled interaction with our Savior.
Beloved Bridegroom is a book that is super easy to read, and very helpful in understanding the temple rituals.
😊😊😊
That was very interesting. I’m not lds but just a side note babies born in the sac are supposed to be way more spiritual, some say psychic.
Interesting. Sounds like Dune
One of my kids was born en caul. The sac didn’t break. Sometimes referred to as a mermaid birth. About 1 in 80,000 births are veiled births. Even fewer en caul. A miraculous pregnancy and delivery
I was told to concentrate only on the spirit when I went to the temple and nothing else… You don’t need a guide except for the spirit! I fasted for three days to be prepared for the temple so preparation is very important. I will never forget my first experience it was absolutely amazing.! What did you do in the morning that you were getting ready for your Temple experience, or the night before or that week? How did you prepare?
Thank you for your comment. ❤ These are such important thoughts and questions. ❤
Yes! Can’t wait for part two!
Christ rending the veil was also symbolic of His own virgin birth, being the first to rend the veil to the Father's presence.
Oooh! Love that
I have always seen the rending of the veil as the cutting or tearing of the covenant upon completion of the Savior's part.
@@SuperHitchcockfan luckily symbols have multiple fulfillments. You are 100% correct in your statement as well.
We need to de carful how we use the term “virgin” birth. In olden times a chased women who married (in the lords way)and was true and faithful remained chased as a Mother and wife, and could be referred to as my “virgin” or a “virgin” until her death. We know some of the polygamist patriarchs had “many virgins” meaning faithful righteous brides or wifes. In Mary’s case this reasoning can be implied as She was a virtuous woman, Faithful to her betrothed. Yet chosen as vessel for the Son of God.
Luke 1:34-35 “and the POWER of the HIGHEST SHALL OVERSHADOW THEE: Therefore also that Holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God”!
Could you write a better description of such a sacred and intimate experience?
Any way we love Mary but don’t want to sound as ridiculous and shallow as our catholic and born again Christian friends
Latter day saints understanding of the gospel is beyond other christian.if you seat down ponder about what they teach they make sense the veil covering our memory is light compared to others who are not LDS.