05:35 I can do the math for you! So let's first assume the attacker is randomly choosing between high and low, and the defender is choosing randomly between high, low, and reflect. Obv it isn't *actually* random, but since neither player will know each others' habits the first time, its effectively random, and we'll just assume the odds of each one is equal. (tl;dr - it actually is a 33/33/33 mix. Always watch opponent habits.) Let's use an expected value chart: High attack: 1/2 chance of occuring, beats 1/3 options: 50%*33% = +17% chance of getting a hit (beats low block, loses to high and reflect) Low attack: 1/2 chance of occuring, beats 1/3 options: 50%*33% = +17% chance of getting a hit (beats high block, loses to low and reflect) 17% + .17% = 33% total chance of getting a hit So your odds actually are still a 33% chance of opening up your oppnent! ...Unless you start baiting their reflect, then the math gets trickier. High attack: 1/3 chance of occuring, beats 1/3 options: 33%*33% = +11% chance of getting a hit (beats low block, loses to high and reflect) Low attack: 1/3 chance of occuring, beats 1/3 options: 33%*33% = +11% chance of getting a hit (beats high block, loses to low and reflect) Reflect bait: 1/3 chance of occuring, beats 1/3 options: 33%*33% = +11% chance of getting a hit (beats reflect, loses to high and low block) 11% + 11% + 11% = 33% chance of opening up Well, looks like your odds of opening them up stay at 33%, strange isn't it? Let’s see what it looks like if you reflect bait but your opponent never reflects: High attack: 1/3 chance of occuring, beats 1/2 options: 33%*50% = +17% chance of getting a hit (beats low block, loses to high) Low attack: 1/3 chance of occuring, beats 1/2 options: 33%*50% = +17% chance of getting a hit (beats high block, loses to low) Reflect bait: 1/3 chance of occuring, beats 0/2 options: 33%*0% = +0% chance of getting a hit (beats nothing, loses to high and low block) 17% = 17% = 33% chance of opening up STILL 33%? Math is weird man. It makes sense though. Think about it, if you play Rock Paper Scissors, and always choose Rock, you’ll still win 33% of the time. In conclusion, it actually is still a 33/33/33 mix, even if it doesn’t seem like it on the surface. Here’s some useful things this data can tell us as players: For defending: Always reflect occasionally against standard high low mix. This will make their 50% chance into a 33% chance, even if they reflect bait occasionally. For attacking: If you’re baiting reflect against an opponent who never reflects, you’re lowering your chances of opening them up from 50% to 33% without them doing anything. Don’t get hustled. Rock might always win a third of the time, but if your opponent knows you, they will never pick scissors.
you also have to take into consideration the expected value of each option. When choosing to reflect on defense you always take into account that if you're wrong you're gonna take way more damage than if you just blocked wrong. So on offense you would expect your opponent to not reflect as often since they know the risk is way higher.
That is true! I still think this info is useful despite the differing damage, since often you just want to open your opponent up regardless of how scaled the combo will be.
For people out there who want to learn strong oki, here’s a list: 1)Gotenks - ghost oki and also his level 3 midscreen allows him to do ex beyblade left-right 2)Beerus - 236L orb oki and 236S multiple orb oki (can only be done after lvl 3 in the corner or if end your combo in a DR/JH, MUCH stronger than the 236L counterpart) 3)Ginyu - Guldo freeze into recoome beam (literally beats every defensive option in the game). Also his fully charged level 1 in the corner becomes a left-right where he goes for 5H and you have to guess which side he’s on, he can steal the corner like this. 4)Cell- lvl 3 in the corner 5)Gogeta 4- lvl 3 in the corner 6)Vegito- lvl3 anywhere plus whiff vanish 7)Zamasu- blades of judgement (can be done after any knockdown in the corner, can also be done midscreen after 236M ender into flight to the top right/left corner) 8)Piccolo- 236S orb oki in the corner or hellzone grenade. In the corner go for lvl3 into j236L, choose where you want to land whether same side or stealing the corner, this is a 4 way just like basegeta’s. 9)Kefla- Rayzone 10)18- in the corner she has multiple options: EX 17 call, 17 barrier, J236M 17 call. She also has her level 3 which is a 4-way (mainly a left-right tho) and it takes you out of the corner 11)Z Broly- lvl 3 in the corner is a 50/50, must guess either L grab or 2L, he also has a way to make his level 3 hit behind you in the corner and he ends up behind you after the animation and you have to guess a left-right similar to Baby 12)Baby- when going into corner 214S loops, on the last rep go for JS, fall to the ground then 3S into 214S but don’t let the whole spin animation finish, immediately go for level 3. This puts you into a dangerous left-right where baby stole the corner 13)Base vegeta- make sure to get his grab in before doing his level 3, if it’s midscreen, it’s a 4 way, if it’s in the corner go for j2H into dash high-low. 14)Labcoat- end a combo in the corner with 214S (her command grab) and immediately go into the side-switching lvl 3 (the one where she teleports behind you) and the lvl3 will put you back into the corner but she will be able to steal the corner after for an ambiguous cross up, so it becomes a left-right. You can also finish a combo in the corner into vanish, go for command grab to put them back in the corner and she’ll be able to steal the corner as they’re waking up. 15)Baseku- when you do a combo into spirit bomb, immediately press J2M and he’ll teleport dive kick right in front of the opponent and they’ll have to guess command grab, iAd, etc 16)Cooler- level 3 and make sure the opponent lands midscreen. Go for a moonjump (a dash super jump that occurs when you press a normal as you’re dash super jumping) and you can go for dash same side or dash cross up, left-right 17)Janemba- level 3 in the corner and make sure you have a small distance between you and the opponent, go for teleport mix, either same side or cross up. 18)A gohan- only unlocked after you reached lvl3 or above, Go for his lvl3 in the corner and he gets the same double air dash high low gogeta 4 gets. Also (credits to wookie’s comment below ⬇️) after he’s in potential unlocked lvl1 or above, he can for a similar mix as basegeta’s in the corner post level 3 when he goes for sj j236L into dash high or sj j236L into land low. 19)Videl- lvl3 in the corner and go for bullshit: air command grab, high-low, or even the command flip that steals the corner 20)Nappa- plant saibaman in the corner, your opponent dies…. The end 21)Majin Buu- either end a combo anywhere on the screen with J236H, this will put them stuck in the buu fat toss into reset 50/50s, or in the corner do fat toss (236S). 22)Goku Black- lvl3 in the corner into 214H (instant transmission) into left-right 23)Trunks-lvl3 midscreen into ex flip left-right (very difficult) 24)Tien- all credits to wookie’s comment below 👇 post level 3 in the corner, go for iad M then J236M high or iAd M into land 2M low. And I think that’s it. Don’t think I’m missing anyone, if I am tell me
I'll say some about Tien's level 3 oki. Tien after his level 3 tribeam super, has several options: First, he has a safejump with IAD jM. Or an empty IAD to bait reflect. You can then add in a high/low on top of that. IAD jM delay j236H overhead vs IAD jM 2M low Overhead is unreactable, and you can follow it up with supers for decent damage. But on the other hand, 2M is just death.
For A Gohan, he has a couple more stuff during potential level 1. Post level 3 outside of the corner, he can mix with 214L vs 214M left/right. Technically reactable but it's SOMETHING outside of the corner. Post level 3 in the corner, he can do a mix similar to Basegeta's. sj j236L IAD jL overhead vs sj j236L land 5L low. The j236L heights are hard to get correct though.
Kefla can left/right mix post lvl3+teleport just like Vegito. You either go for same side j2S or cross up IAD jM. Reading your list, I must admit to myself that I might have a thing with strong oki. I play Basegeta/Kefla/Videl and it never occured to me that they all have some infernal bullshit post lvl3. Mind you, I abuse all of it. But I didn't click until I read your list that it was probably the strongest element of my gameplan/team comp.
So, I tried doing a Cooler Level 3 Oki setup for my other comment, and I did it against Red Gogeta for your example. So, what I learned is that apparently Cooler 2M whiffs against it if you do the level 3 meaty setup (with IAD j.m)- but more importantly, the DP also just whiffs? The attacks both just miss each other, and it makes Cooler insanely plus since he didn't just whiff a DP. So, assuming it's not just some jank shit or my fault, is a scenario where a level 3 has a high/low mixup but both options beat the DP when they normally wouldn't. Even Cooler's OTHER level 3 low setup with 214S would still win because that's too far away to get hit by it, it just gives you less options and less plus frames than the others! So, uhh, if it loses to Cooler using a high meaty setup, and it loses to Cooler going low, and it loses to Cooler baiting reflect, then it begs the question of why the fuck would Gogeta do that when it doesn't win against any oki strategies there. (The answer is obviously cause it gives a dragon ball, which is easily worth every and any death combo punishes you'll get, in literally every scenario). Anyways, this is such a weird fucking interaction, and it also might be the first time in Lord Cooler's life he's ever had a hurtbox too small to get hit, since he's so far away from the DP. I'm so proud of our boy.
One thing I'd like to say regarding the cost of oki, one example that works a little differently than the ones you show is Cooler and his combos. Because he has some REALLY strong and easy mix off of his divekick if you save your double jump. After divekick, Cooler can IAD for a safejump overhead or a low. But, it begs the question of what you want to structure your combos, since in order to utilize the STRONG oki of divekick, you have to give up something. Do you want to give up your double jump for an IAD? Or do you want to give up your smash hit so you can do smash j.2H into divekick, which allows a meaty 6m? In the corner, you can also get a meaty safejump after L-Divekick with float up+forward j.L. All of this makes divekick a really strong oki setup, meanwhile the DP does more damage and meter and doesn't cost anything. It changes the structure of combos for how strong you want your oki to be. Cooler just has some pretty good oki in general. "EverythingFighterz" has a couple of good videos about Cooler's tech, including a way to do a meaty j.L in the corner after a DP combo ender, which is good since that can go into anti-reflect strings.
5:35 It all depends on whether you're supposed to block high or low in addition to Cell's left-right. If it doesn't matter, then both Cell and Gogeta's mix is 33-33-33. Cell: you either block left, or block right, or reflect Gogeta: you either block high, or block low, or reflect If it DOES matter, then Cell gets a 20-20-20-20-20 Cell: you either block high AND LEFT, or block low AND LEFT OR block high AND RIGHT, or block low AND RIGHT OR reflect Adding jump out, reverse lvl1, reverse lvl3, DP and other stuff goes into things I don't want to calculate, especially since some of them are also character specific. (EDIT: lol he mentioned the other options too.) Also, these are stats based on the options you have. Getting the stats of likelihood of the best option is an even worse thing to go about (basically 7:10). This is just what I call "gameplay" lol. It's how fighting games work.
Interestingly enough, assuming Cell has a left right mix, it actually isn't a 333333 mix, its a real 50/50, even with reflect. Gogeta has to guess between high, low, and reflect. Cell has to guess between left and (right and reflect). The difference is to Cell, _right and reflect are the same,_ because reflect doesn't block cross-ups. So Cell's mix actually is a 50/50! Even if his opponent reflects a third of the time, he still wins 50% of the interactions regardless. (I can show the math if you'd like)
@@jimmykeffer7401 damn, probability was never my greatest point. Although, I'm glad you pointed it out cos I'm willing to learn fr. Actually, I do wanna see the math My focus was on the possible correct choices the player has. To me, it makes sense this way, but please do correct me if it still doesn't work like that.
Base vegeta can also add another layer onto the spark bait by using his ex knee drop. Since both 236H and 214H teleport on start, you could call out with an overhead. This is still able to left right which allows you to fake same side after crossing the opponent up. However this way less usefull than normal oki since its a hard read on your opponents habits. You would have to be a fucking savant to go for this type of shit.
Couldn’t gogeta use his counter here in this situation 11:30 your giving an example of with vegeta going left or right or up or down and if I’m mistaken I think you can hold the counter input for a extended like one second or sum (don’t quote me on that)
but you have to hit quarter circle back to hit it, and it's a left-right, so that only has a 50% chance of working. if he can't do it against normal left rights, then he shouldn't be able to do it here
05:35 I can do the math for you! So let's first assume the attacker is randomly choosing between high and low, and the defender is choosing randomly between high, low, and reflect. Obv it isn't *actually* random, but since neither player will know each others' habits the first time, its effectively random, and we'll just assume the odds of each one is equal.
(tl;dr - it actually is a 33/33/33 mix. Always watch opponent habits.)
Let's use an expected value chart:
High attack: 1/2 chance of occuring, beats 1/3 options: 50%*33% = +17% chance of getting a hit (beats low block, loses to high and reflect)
Low attack: 1/2 chance of occuring, beats 1/3 options: 50%*33% = +17% chance of getting a hit (beats high block, loses to low and reflect)
17% + .17% = 33% total chance of getting a hit
So your odds actually are still a 33% chance of opening up your oppnent!
...Unless you start baiting their reflect, then the math gets trickier.
High attack: 1/3 chance of occuring, beats 1/3 options: 33%*33% = +11% chance of getting a hit (beats low block, loses to high and reflect)
Low attack: 1/3 chance of occuring, beats 1/3 options: 33%*33% = +11% chance of getting a hit (beats high block, loses to low and reflect)
Reflect bait: 1/3 chance of occuring, beats 1/3 options: 33%*33% = +11% chance of getting a hit (beats reflect, loses to high and low block)
11% + 11% + 11% = 33% chance of opening up
Well, looks like your odds of opening them up stay at 33%, strange isn't it? Let’s see what it looks like if you reflect bait but your opponent never reflects:
High attack: 1/3 chance of occuring, beats 1/2 options: 33%*50% = +17% chance of getting a hit (beats low block, loses to high)
Low attack: 1/3 chance of occuring, beats 1/2 options: 33%*50% = +17% chance of getting a hit (beats high block, loses to low)
Reflect bait: 1/3 chance of occuring, beats 0/2 options: 33%*0% = +0% chance of getting a hit (beats nothing, loses to high and low block)
17% = 17% = 33% chance of opening up
STILL 33%? Math is weird man. It makes sense though. Think about it, if you play Rock Paper Scissors, and always choose Rock, you’ll still win 33% of the time. In conclusion, it actually is still a 33/33/33 mix, even if it doesn’t seem like it on the surface. Here’s some useful things this data can tell us as players:
For defending: Always reflect occasionally against standard high low mix. This will make their 50% chance into a 33% chance, even if they reflect bait occasionally.
For attacking: If you’re baiting reflect against an opponent who never reflects, you’re lowering your chances of opening them up from 50% to 33% without them doing anything. Don’t get hustled.
Rock might always win a third of the time, but if your opponent knows you, they will never pick scissors.
you also have to take into consideration the expected value of each option. When choosing to reflect on defense you always take into account that if you're wrong you're gonna take way more damage than if you just blocked wrong. So on offense you would expect your opponent to not reflect as often since they know the risk is way higher.
That is true! I still think this info is useful despite the differing damage, since often you just want to open your opponent up regardless of how scaled the combo will be.
Dude putting out some of the most educational stuff on youtube it's actually crazy.
Illa upload = good day.
Facts
Can't wait for this channel to get big. Love these videos
For people out there who want to learn strong oki, here’s a list:
1)Gotenks - ghost oki and also his level 3 midscreen allows him to do ex beyblade left-right
2)Beerus - 236L orb oki and 236S multiple orb oki (can only be done after lvl 3 in the corner or if end your combo in a DR/JH, MUCH stronger than the 236L counterpart)
3)Ginyu - Guldo freeze into recoome beam (literally beats every defensive option in the game). Also his fully charged level 1 in the corner becomes a left-right where he goes for 5H and you have to guess which side he’s on, he can steal the corner like this.
4)Cell- lvl 3 in the corner
5)Gogeta 4- lvl 3 in the corner
6)Vegito- lvl3 anywhere plus whiff vanish
7)Zamasu- blades of judgement (can be done after any knockdown in the corner, can also be done midscreen after 236M ender into flight to the top right/left corner)
8)Piccolo- 236S orb oki in the corner or hellzone grenade. In the corner go for lvl3 into j236L, choose where you want to land whether same side or stealing the corner, this is a 4 way just like basegeta’s.
9)Kefla- Rayzone
10)18- in the corner she has multiple options: EX 17 call, 17 barrier, J236M 17 call. She also has her level 3 which is a 4-way (mainly a left-right tho) and it takes you out of the corner
11)Z Broly- lvl 3 in the corner is a 50/50, must guess either L grab or 2L, he also has a way to make his level 3 hit behind you in the corner and he ends up behind you after the animation and you have to guess a left-right similar to Baby
12)Baby- when going into corner 214S loops, on the last rep go for JS, fall to the ground then 3S into 214S but don’t let the whole spin animation finish, immediately go for level 3. This puts you into a dangerous left-right where baby stole the corner
13)Base vegeta- make sure to get his grab in before doing his level 3, if it’s midscreen, it’s a 4 way, if it’s in the corner go for j2H into dash high-low.
14)Labcoat- end a combo in the corner with 214S (her command grab) and immediately go into the side-switching lvl 3 (the one where she teleports behind you) and the lvl3 will put you back into the corner but she will be able to steal the corner after for an ambiguous cross up, so it becomes a left-right. You can also finish a combo in the corner into vanish, go for command grab to put them back in the corner and she’ll be able to steal the corner as they’re waking up.
15)Baseku- when you do a combo into spirit bomb, immediately press J2M and he’ll teleport dive kick right in front of the opponent and they’ll have to guess command grab, iAd, etc
16)Cooler- level 3 and make sure the opponent lands midscreen. Go for a moonjump (a dash super jump that occurs when you press a normal as you’re dash super jumping) and you can go for dash same side or dash cross up, left-right
17)Janemba- level 3 in the corner and make sure you have a small distance between you and the opponent, go for teleport mix, either same side or cross up.
18)A gohan- only unlocked after you reached lvl3 or above,
Go for his lvl3 in the corner and he gets the same double air dash high low gogeta 4 gets. Also (credits to wookie’s comment below ⬇️) after he’s in potential unlocked lvl1 or above, he can for a similar mix as basegeta’s in the corner post level 3 when he goes for sj j236L into dash high or sj j236L into land low.
19)Videl- lvl3 in the corner and go for bullshit: air command grab, high-low, or even the command flip that steals the corner
20)Nappa- plant saibaman in the corner, your opponent dies…. The end
21)Majin Buu- either end a combo anywhere on the screen with J236H, this will put them stuck in the buu fat toss into reset 50/50s, or in the corner do fat toss (236S).
22)Goku Black- lvl3 in the corner into 214H (instant transmission) into left-right
23)Trunks-lvl3 midscreen into ex flip left-right (very difficult)
24)Tien- all credits to wookie’s comment below 👇 post level 3 in the corner, go for iad M then J236M high or iAd M into land 2M low.
And I think that’s it. Don’t think I’m missing anyone, if I am tell me
Thank you SOOOOOO much fr fr
@@blk-sandi of course man 💪🏾
I'll say some about Tien's level 3 oki.
Tien after his level 3 tribeam super, has several options:
First, he has a safejump with IAD jM.
Or an empty IAD to bait reflect.
You can then add in a high/low on top of that.
IAD jM delay j236H overhead
vs
IAD jM 2M low
Overhead is unreactable, and you can follow it up with supers for decent damage.
But on the other hand, 2M is just death.
For A Gohan, he has a couple more stuff during potential level 1.
Post level 3 outside of the corner, he can mix with 214L vs 214M left/right. Technically reactable but it's SOMETHING outside of the corner.
Post level 3 in the corner, he can do a mix similar to Basegeta's.
sj j236L IAD jL overhead
vs
sj j236L land 5L low.
The j236L heights are hard to get correct though.
Kefla can left/right mix post lvl3+teleport just like Vegito. You either go for same side j2S or cross up IAD jM.
Reading your list, I must admit to myself that I might have a thing with strong oki. I play Basegeta/Kefla/Videl and it never occured to me that they all have some infernal bullshit post lvl3. Mind you, I abuse all of it. But I didn't click until I read your list that it was probably the strongest element of my gameplan/team comp.
I knew all of this yet I still watched it you can go far with this
So, I tried doing a Cooler Level 3 Oki setup for my other comment, and I did it against Red Gogeta for your example.
So, what I learned is that apparently Cooler 2M whiffs against it if you do the level 3 meaty setup (with IAD j.m)- but more importantly, the DP also just whiffs? The attacks both just miss each other, and it makes Cooler insanely plus since he didn't just whiff a DP.
So, assuming it's not just some jank shit or my fault, is a scenario where a level 3 has a high/low mixup but both options beat the DP when they normally wouldn't.
Even Cooler's OTHER level 3 low setup with 214S would still win because that's too far away to get hit by it, it just gives you less options and less plus frames than the others!
So, uhh, if it loses to Cooler using a high meaty setup, and it loses to Cooler going low, and it loses to Cooler baiting reflect, then it begs the question of why the fuck would Gogeta do that when it doesn't win against any oki strategies there.
(The answer is obviously cause it gives a dragon ball, which is easily worth every and any death combo punishes you'll get, in literally every scenario).
Anyways, this is such a weird fucking interaction, and it also might be the first time in Lord Cooler's life he's ever had a hurtbox too small to get hit, since he's so far away from the DP. I'm so proud of our boy.
I gotta say, between you and misteracolyte I’m about to be the best fighterz player ever😂
One thing I'd like to say regarding the cost of oki, one example that works a little differently than the ones you show is Cooler and his combos. Because he has some REALLY strong and easy mix off of his divekick if you save your double jump.
After divekick, Cooler can IAD for a safejump overhead or a low. But, it begs the question of what you want to structure your combos, since in order to utilize the STRONG oki of divekick, you have to give up something.
Do you want to give up your double jump for an IAD? Or do you want to give up your smash hit so you can do smash j.2H into divekick, which allows a meaty 6m?
In the corner, you can also get a meaty safejump after L-Divekick with float up+forward j.L.
All of this makes divekick a really strong oki setup, meanwhile the DP does more damage and meter and doesn't cost anything. It changes the structure of combos for how strong you want your oki to be.
Cooler just has some pretty good oki in general. "EverythingFighterz" has a couple of good videos about Cooler's tech, including a way to do a meaty j.L in the corner after a DP combo ender, which is good since that can go into anti-reflect strings.
5:35
It all depends on whether you're supposed to block high or low in addition to Cell's left-right.
If it doesn't matter, then both Cell and Gogeta's mix is 33-33-33.
Cell: you either block left, or block right, or reflect
Gogeta: you either block high, or block low, or reflect
If it DOES matter, then Cell gets a 20-20-20-20-20
Cell: you either block high AND LEFT, or block low AND LEFT
OR block high AND RIGHT, or block low AND RIGHT
OR reflect
Adding jump out, reverse lvl1, reverse lvl3, DP and other stuff goes into things I don't want to calculate, especially since some of them are also character specific.
(EDIT: lol he mentioned the other options too.)
Also, these are stats based on the options you have. Getting the stats of likelihood of the best option is an even worse thing to go about (basically 7:10). This is just what I call "gameplay" lol. It's how fighting games work.
Interestingly enough, assuming Cell has a left right mix, it actually isn't a 333333 mix, its a real 50/50, even with reflect.
Gogeta has to guess between high, low, and reflect.
Cell has to guess between left and (right and reflect).
The difference is to Cell, _right and reflect are the same,_ because reflect doesn't block cross-ups.
So Cell's mix actually is a 50/50! Even if his opponent reflects a third of the time, he still wins 50% of the interactions regardless. (I can show the math if you'd like)
@@jimmykeffer7401 damn, probability was never my greatest point. Although, I'm glad you pointed it out cos I'm willing to learn fr. Actually, I do wanna see the math
My focus was on the possible correct choices the player has. To me, it makes sense this way, but please do correct me if it still doesn't work like that.
Base vegeta can also add another layer onto the spark bait by using his ex knee drop. Since both 236H and 214H teleport on start, you could call out with an overhead. This is still able to left right which allows you to fake same side after crossing the opponent up. However this way less usefull than normal oki since its a hard read on your opponents habits. You would have to be a fucking savant to go for this type of shit.
oki is short for okizeme btw
Couldn’t gogeta use his counter here in this situation 11:30 your giving an example of with vegeta going left or right or up or down and if I’m mistaken I think you can hold the counter input for a extended like one second or sum (don’t quote me on that)
but you have to hit quarter circle back to hit it, and it's a left-right, so that only has a 50% chance of working. if he can't do it against normal left rights, then he shouldn't be able to do it here
Wait Dp gets stuffed by air overheard ?
If it’s a safe jump I think
since it's invincible, what happens is it misses, and then you land and can block the DP
good video
I’ve always been a gl fiend and now that I have a similar build to this one I get so much hate and it makes me thrive😂
Yuhh