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Quick question: If the tender descenders where fired why did the bag and the chute compartment not move away from the main tube? There was nothing holding them there since the line holding them near the main tube was cut by the tender descenders. Doesn't this mean that there is another serious issue other than the drogue ripping? Even with a ripped drogue the nosecone and the drogue should only be attached to the main chute bag from your line diagram.
Hello Joe, I wanted to address your question regarding how OpenRocket simulates descent. To my knowledge, OpenRocket only considers the drag created by the parachute itself, disregarding drag created by the airframe on the way down. If the airframe descends relatively straight, this is obviously negligible. In your case though, it definitely added a ton of drag. To account for this, I like to simulate tumbling with a phantom chute(0 mass) at approximately half the cross sectional area of the airframe with a (CD of 0.5). This is not super accurate, but it does provide a ballpark for a tumbling scenario! You may have already heard of it, but I’d like to refer to you to RasAero. OpenRocket kinda gives out around mach 1.5-1.7, so it may make sense to use that as well for higher mach projects. Good luck on your next L3 attempt!
You know what I like about you? Your ability to be self-critical and therefore learning from failures. It's pretty rare to see that so well and you should be proud of that good Sir! :)
I hope you don't mind if I add my 2 cents. I used to skydive, so I became very familiar with parachute gear that's used in high risk situations, and there are some very neat (not to mention tried and tested!) solutions to these exact problems you're trying to solve. Your deployment method is almost exactly how a tandem skydive rig works, except way way more complicated. On a tandem there is a drogue that slows the tandem down, and that drogue is then used to deploy the main parachute. The drogue is held to the rig with a 3-ring release system (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-ring_release_system) which allows it to be released with very little force, even though it's under a lot of tension. It has a single bridle that attaches first to the three-ring release (preventing the main parachute from being pulled out), and then to the main deployment bag. Therefore a single line is all that's needed to release the drogue and pull the main out of the container, and that line is held in place with just a thin bit of nylon (through the 3-ring). The main deployment bag is attached to the top of the parachute, and the drogue remains attached to the bag, which means nothing is lost during the deployment. A single line means there is nothing to get tangled in the turbulent airflow. We also had devices called automatic deployment devices (ADD) that would release the reserve parachute if we got too low (for example, losing consciousness or awareness in freefall). Those have a pyrotechnic cutter that cuts a very small bit of nyon to reliably release the reserve parachute. No need to blow up bits of metal, with a 3-ring release system it's only a thin bit of nylon holding the entire system together. Once that is cut, the aerodynamic forces do the rest. The cutters can actually cut steel rod, so are massively overpowered, but that's good when it needs to be reliable. You can buy the cutters without the rest of the device, and they just need an electrical signal to operate. The main manufacturer of AADs, Cypress, have never had a failure that's led to loss of life. The tandem deployment method, 3-ring release, and AAD cutters put together would give you an incredibly reliable, well tested, and simple system. If you have a parachute centre near you, wait for a cloudy day and head down there. I expect you'll be able to find a packer who will happily show you the systems and how they all work. One last thing I want to add is that it's possible that the nose-cone being attached to the drogue is what caused the failure. If the nose cone pulled the drogue lines around too much, it could cause it to collapse and then re-inflate repeatedly and with a lot of force. The drogue only needs to end up in the airstream, after that the wind will do the rest (how we deploy a solo parachute!) so keeping the nose-cone attached to the main body in a way that minimises the risk of entanglement with the drogue will probably be a much better way of doing it
I enjoyed the behind the scenes stuff with a bunch of people messing around and going slowly insane. It gave me fond memories of messing around with my college buddies, which had a very similar vibe. I'd definitely be happier to see more of it.
You have no idea how much of an encouragement it is to see the people we look up to struggling and losing their minds over things. It helps to validate the difficulties we face and inspires us to overcome them. With that said, release the video footage XD
I absolutley love the depth and clarity of these videos. I am on the recovery sub team of the University of Akron Akronauts and we are currently developing a mechanically activated co2 based system for high altitude recovery deployment. Seeing the challenges here, some we have had on our launches that have had similar consequences to the ones you have had, really shed some light on how complex and nuanced recovery is. As with any new design or rocket there are learning curves and many unknowns when we strap it to the launch rail. All we can do from the ground after that engine is lit is cross our fingers and hope the other sub teams are forgiving when parachutes fail
Every flight you can learn from is a good flight. A great L3 attempt and we know for your next launch will be flawless. Also, ironically L3 is an individual achievement, although better achieved with the help of a strong team around you. Great video and breakdown.
I watched important parts of the video a few times and here are some suggestions and questions that I have: - You already ask the question at 22:14 but I see a problem. If the drouge chute line is shorter that nose cone line, nose cone may hit the drouge while flapping around. Also nose cone line may entangle with drouge chute. And I guess that is what caused the issue. - Can you show more of the remaining of the drouge chute? Where did it snap from? If it snapped due to shock I expect it to snap around the line connections and I expect snapped lines. If it snapped in the middle of the cloth, then I would assume it is something hitting there, like nose cone itself. - I would also try to reduce the complexity by removing some of the lines & other elements. Here some suggestions: * Elastic band is a great idea but don't attach it with another string, instead pass a small loop from main parachute line thorough elastic and when the main line gets tension it will release the elastic itself. It is heavily used in paragliding & parachuting world. You can an example at the end of this video: th-cam.com/video/TIp4nyZcUyY/w-d-xo.html Hope it gives inspiration. * Can you remove the connections from tender descender from the god knot and only keep the secondary ones you put. (for the case if both TDs fire). Since removing that link doesn't change anything, TDs will still be connected to god knot with secondary lines. I am trying to reduce complexity by removing some stuff. - And lastly, I hope the line from main bag the tender descender line is long enough. If only one of TDs fire then the load will go through tender descender line to line between main bag and tender descender line to drouge riser. Main chute line won't be loaded. And from what I see in 26:18 it seem like it is the black line that frees up after breaking TD. But it uses same connection type as the drouge unloader so I don't see keeping it because it will behave exactly same as unloader. Correct me if I am wrong but otherwise I don't see a point in increasing complexity.
Hey Icarus Thicccccarus, I would love to see a video of you and your rocket cluster losing their minds while prepping a rocket for launch 🙃 My hype for avionics is growing every video. Can't wait for the next video.
Watching this series has quickly made me realize my shortcomings as an engineer. Despite being on my school's rocketry team, I have very little experience or understanding of what really goes on when it comes to the rocket I helped build. Things I managed to learn for this series so far: 1. Specializing on the engineering team has found me success and experience regarding the specific subsystem I was working on, which is great and good for growth. 2. The engineer at I am today, really does not like specializing as much as I had thought, I look back and feel as if I should've have been a bit more broad with my approach on the engineering team. Learning and experiencing a lot more. 3. In order to experience and learn a lot more, I'm gonna try to earn my certifications this summer.
That's an amazing opening sequence! We really appreciate you taking time to make these videos look visually appealing, in addition to all the work at goes into actually working on the projects!
Logging the correct data and being able to analyse that data post mortem to figure out what went wrong and improve on the next run is also great engineering. Good work.
I really like this style of video and the way the redundant disconnect for the droag is exactly the opposite of what your supposed to do when making an anchor for climbing
Hi Joe, I´m a skydiver and also really space flight interested. I´d suggest you contact a skydiving rigger. The problem you are trying to solve looks oddly simmilar to the drogue and main deployment of a tandem skydiving system. Right after exiting the plane at 14000ft the drogue chute gets deployed. It is getting held by a small steel pin which is holding back the main chute. once they reach about 5000ft the pin gets released. The drogue chute pulls out the main chute which is still contained in a sort of sack simillar to your approach. Once the lines are fully extendet the sack gets pulled of the main chute. Thats just a short explanaition of what happens. Im sure a rigger can give you a much more detailed explanation. The systems used to deploy skydiving parachutes are wonderfull because they are super simple at their core yet solve very complex problems. I´m sure they can also hook you up with the right lines, sail material and other stuff. Cheers from germany Robert
Can't wait for the avionics video. As a computer engineer all the cords and fires feel like pure magic. I am gonna enjoy watching a video from this channel that I could understand...
I understand wanting to avoid more pyrotechnics, but relying on the drogue to pull out the main seems to add significant complexity to your lines, and makes both parachutes critical to mission success. (If either parachute fails, rocket go splat) Have you considered using two independent pistons to fire two independent parachutes? Then, even if the drogue tears itself to shreds, your main has a chance of opening, and also you don’t need a complex set of lines.
How would you fit a second pistons in there? Also my understanding is both parachutes are critical to mission success anyways as deploying the main chute at terminal velocity would tear it to shreds.
@@Pcat0 Perhaps, but apparently the rocket was going slowly for a while just cause it was falling sideways, and he implied that "the main chute almost came out on accident, which could have saved the rocket". The drogue shute will always serve a purpose, but it is possible that it could fail without mission failure if it is a separate system. The main advantage is the simpler lines, since you get rid of the bag, the drogue release stuff, and the pyro-line cutter gets replaced with the second piston.
@@haph2087 adding a second piston would have increased vehicle's mass by a significant hence requiring a completely redisigned chute system increasing the mass further more and so on. In rocketry you cannot let yourself get in this trap
@@aringangal6614 well, it replaces the two tender descenders, so It’s not like it’s just added weight. It also simplifies the design, which is helpful.
@@haph2087 the size of tender descenders are significantly smaller than the piston, so to accommodate one more piston you will increase the length of tubing and piston is comparatively heavier than the descenders. Also as the pistons cant be accomodated parallel to each other, one has to be placed on top of other hence increasing the complexity of connection and also compromising the strength of vehicle
Thanks, Joe, for all the details you share during your rocket builds. Very interesting stuff. For someone without an engineering background, you do great work. Keep it up, man.
All of this rocket stuff is very inspiring and interesting but also overwhelming! I’m thinking about using your tech in some of my rockets, but also making my own that is adapted from yours, as otherwise I would feel as though I didn’t even try to achieve a successful rocket model on my own. For around 2 years I’ve wanted to make my own “sugar rockets” but I never knew until now that I could make much more sophisticated and interesting rockets. Keep up the amazing work !
that personal video between you and your friends was awesome! if if the other recordings are anywhere close to that part - it'd be super interesting & fun to watch!
I might suggest using a circularly polarized antenna for the telemetry receiver so the linear antennas on the rocket doesn't go through a 30 dB cross polarization hit when they are at 90 degrees to the receive antenna. And I'm sure you have figured out that the transmit antennas need to be either external to the airframe as a blade type antenna, or located nowhere near metal which will detune the antenna and make it much less efficient at radiating the signal. There is some chance the small whip antennas you are using are expecting a counter poise (the other half of the quarter wave element) as part of the mounting in order to be resonant. You can check this by disassembling an antenna to see if the coax actually feeds the center point of the antenna and there is an internal counterpoise that looks like a tube over the top of the coax in the direction back toward the connector. If you have the internal tube, you don't need an additional counterpoise. Feel free to take the internal parts of the antenna and push them through the body of the rocket, fashioning an airfoil over it using your 3-D printer. Make sure there is no carbon in the airfoil you create. Some plastics absorb RF. One way to test this is to place the plastic you want to use in a microwave oven for a few seconds to see if the plastic gets warm. Getting warm is bad. That means it is absorbing energy which will reduce your radiated power. Good luck and thank you for all the well documented videos.
I recommend at looking into how skydivers pack their chutes, and how their lines work. Go to your local drop zone and just ask, I've never met bad people at a dz. The bag that holds the chute has built in rubber bands (no hair ties that you have to further tie off). The bag opens wider, from the side. The risers are used to help pack the bag, so you're saving space. Downside is I don't know if you can find a bag in that style and that size; maybe get canvas, eyelets then custom build? Wishing you luck!
Gosh, it is so interesting seeing your post flight analysis, that’s the best bit, thank you. I think your key problem is insufficient force to separate the main bag from the main chute. Two possible solutions spring to mind, the second seems better. 1, put two drogues in series. If the end drogue works, it will pull the reserve tight if it is connected to the reserve’s apex. If that end drogue fails for whatever reason, the reserve drogue can open because it is not pulled tight. This system will not work if the failure mechanism for the end drogue also fails the reserve drogue, so it isn’t perfect. 2 Reduce the force needed to remove the main’s bag from the main chute. The best mechanism I’ve seen is a shiny pin, ring and cone for locking, and elastics to pull the bag open. A parachute packer from the WW2 or Korean War era will be able to show you the brilliant engineering. I so look forward to your next washup videos, they are the best! Thank you so much:)
OMG, What a coincidence! I cannot believe I saw Andrew and Charlie from MIT on this video. I really miss you two along with other members of the MIT Rocket Team. Last week I attended a launch in upstate NY and was wearing my MIT Rocket Team T shirt. Even today I was telling a friend of mine how much Charlie knows about the history of manned space flight. It would be great to hear from you two. I'm sure you all are doing well.
Another great vid! The biggest issue to me is complexity. It’s always a better idea to go simple, especially when gearing up for a cert flight. I recommend cleaning up the lines and maybe separating the main and drogue chutes into separate bays to prevent tangling and ensure deployment. This would take up more room and weigh more, however. I am loving watching your process, keep it up!
Start with installing a flap and some elastics to “lock” in he main d-bag closed until it reaches line stretch. Secondly, consider building a stronger deluge with more reinforcing tapes or a different configuration: ring, ballute, cross, etc. Rob Warner FAA Master Parachute Rigger
I literally never comment on youtube vidjas but, dude... totally release that footage. The raw human part of the whole dealio is what people truly connect with and to have all that footage never see the light of day would be such a shame. a++ job lil homie
U don't only gain the most posible knowledge from your mistakes, but you make a comprehensive video to share that with everyone, thanks! Joe: "AVA TALK TO ME!" AVA: "lmao _ño_ "
I'm thankful that the swearing is bleeped. Count me as a vote for no fowl language or bleeped (as you've done here). Thanks for the great TH-cam content. Love watching and learning.
These videos are excellent and it’s fantastic to see someone doing something with their time and interests! I for one would love to see the raw behind the scenes video.
Tender descenders are really fun to work with. But yeah, recovery is easily the hardest part to get right in HPR. Personally, I had a rocket, with a setup similar as yours, suffer a main deployment at apogee (+gps was dead), which sent us on a loooong journey to retrieve it.
When the drogue deployed and inflated, there wasn't much weight on it. It created a whip like effect on the lines and when it finally was tensioned, it was like cracking the whip with the heavy body at the end of it. That whip crack created a spike of energy that overpowered/oversped the parachute and blew it apart. Acceleration telemetry at that moment should be able to confirm or deny this theory. I've spent some time sailing in heavy winds and this isn't all that different from how spinnakers are launched, which are also often made out of nylon (or similar) materials.
What others understand as a mistake, for You this is part of the progress ... You do not want to be lucky, You want to fully understand Your subject, so mistakes are necessary ... I am a Big fun of Your channel. My big project is completely unrelated, but I love to watch people who know what they are looking for :) Regards
Yes, I would love to watch Joey b for through the five stages of grief while trying to build a rocket. In all seriousness though, this was cool to watch! Keep it up man!
I'm a smart dude and i would love to be a part of this, but you "guys" are on a whole other level. Tis has been fun to watch (from someone who has always wanted to put something into space)
If you guys had said "he deserves more subs for the work he puts in" I would agree but saying he's underated doesn't only undermine the work he put in to get to this point but also shows a severe lack in perspektive. Have any lf you any idea how astronomically high the number 300000 is? 300000 isn't a small number. I think 300k clearly shows the apreciation many people show for his work and calling that underated is ignorant at best
The flat spin balance dynamics will vary dynamically based on the roll angle and how the fins are angled. When 2 fins got equal high loads it went nose down. I would think you want a profile that keeps the rocket slightly below the plane, to allow for the variation. I really love the way you share the data with all of us. When you show and explain something I understand it gives lots of credibility on the topics or points that I don’t.
I want you to do all the commentary on my clips cause this is the 4th time I've watched your mid to highly technical clips and they're all waaaaay longer than mine. You really make the math & science easier to grasp and digest. Thank you!
Hey man, seems like you're having a lot more fun with this again, good job getting back to a place where you're comfortable and happy. Keep up the good work!
Great job showing and not just your mistakes but the process that led to the decisions as well as what you are learning from the results. Your next attempt as others have said will be a work of art I look forward to your success!
Seeing the candid friend squad working out problems was really nice, and honestly made you seem even more relatable and interesting Also hella cute ngl
Hey Joe. Had missed a lot of your videos last year and this one is amazing. The science of the drogue chute then deploy.. All your stuff in chute and bag and everything seems pretty tight.. Even the nose cone. So I think a looser cone with those shearpins and a looser bag or a shroud system would be better.. Then the drogue would have an easier time to pull out the main. Also good to get a more stout drogue... Your idea on a shorter upload line to keep the cone with the whole unit is a good one with less need for the pyro separators and other space gobbling stuff. I would have tried the route. My 4' 3-motor rocket had a 1" shock cord connected from the cone and body and the chute.. Cone slipped off pretty easy as it used the ejection pressure from the solid composite motors. Can't wait to see if you get to try it again. Eric
I love seeing more of your personality in these videos. This whole video is a masterpiece and I appreciate all of the work that everyone put into making this happen. Good shit
Hey Joe, great vid and great to see you having fun shooting them. Ref the sealing of the ematch in the pyrobolt, the term you’re after is obturation, in this case, reward obturation.
Fold the chute better. Look up packing a paraglider reserve. There are techniques which both aid and slow it's deployment. In real life this saves your life and doesn't break your back doing it. If that isn't enough, add a slider. A small panel holding the lines together, push it up towards the canopy when you pack. When the chute tries to open the air pressure from the higher speed with hold that slider up against the chute stopping it from opening. As the drag lowers the speed the chute starts to win and pushes the slider down the lines towards the risers. This lets the overspeed situation work itself out. Used on real world RAM air parachutes, but also I believe some round parachutes.
I dont know anything about this rocked building stuff, but i know something about parachuting. and i would recomend to look at parachuting. espacialy deploying the chute. connection of the nosecone to the parachute. i myself got a terminal velocity on the belly of about 55m/s. my pilotchute has a diameter of 32". at terminal velocity about 50-70 kg of force are generated. keep that in mind. these chutes have to be very sturdy. tandem- drogues that are kept in flight till deployment of the main parachute are even sturdier. if u connect ur nosecone directly to the main and not to ur drogue/ pilotchute it will interfere much less with the whole system. i hope it helps
Also if you’re reading this I saw on the onboard footage the shroud lines got very tangled on the main. There is a brand called recon recovery they makes large high quality chutes with thiccccc shroud lines. Also they only have four shroud lines.
Joe, I'd really love to see the video from the 3 cameras that didn't survive. You mentioned losing the video from 3 of the 4 cameras. I assume you have not formatted or re-used the SD cards that were in those cameras? If so, there are a number of things you can try to recover the video files. I've successfully recovered data from many crashes and would be happy to discuss the process with you.
I would ALSO like to see that video... The cards are crunched - like one is in 3 pieces, one is split down the middle, and one heats up as if it has an internal short. I'm sure the files are there, but the cards are unreadable. If you know someone who is able to recover footage from that type of situation, I'd pay good money for it. As I understand it, once that silicon is cracked, it's very hard to ever read that data again. :/
@@BPSspace Thanks for the explanation. Did you post pics of the damaged SD cards someplace? I personally have recovered data from smashed flash memory chips, but I was lucky and the broken part did not touch the silicon die inside the plastic housing. I was able to decap the chip and solder directly to the lead-frame with a microscope. I would urge you to get word out to a data recovery company. There are several on TH-cam that show very extreme recovery scenarios in their videos. There's a pretty good chance that as long as the silicon die inside the chips is not broken, that a professional could help you. I hope you find someone to work with on this because I'd really love to see the video and think it might help solve the deploy failure questions!
Xyla Foxlin is such a fox!! Her TH-cam channel is also really good! Question: why were the fins rotating while descending? EDIT: right around the 29:36 mark.
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Thank You also! Because you inspired me to get more know about those rockets and I also watched your whole series about the rockets. :D
Quick question:
If the tender descenders where fired why did the bag and the chute compartment not move away from the main tube?
There was nothing holding them there since the line holding them near the main tube was cut by the tender descenders.
Doesn't this mean that there is another serious issue other than the drogue ripping?
Even with a ripped drogue the nosecone and the drogue should only be attached to the main chute bag from your line diagram.
Hello Joe,
I wanted to address your question regarding how OpenRocket simulates descent. To my knowledge, OpenRocket only considers the drag created by the parachute itself, disregarding drag created by the airframe on the way down. If the airframe descends relatively straight, this is obviously negligible. In your case though, it definitely added a ton of drag. To account for this, I like to simulate tumbling with a phantom chute(0 mass) at approximately half the cross sectional area of the airframe with a (CD of 0.5). This is not super accurate, but it does provide a ballpark for a tumbling scenario! You may have already heard of it, but I’d like to refer to you to RasAero. OpenRocket kinda gives out around mach 1.5-1.7, so it may make sense to use that as well for higher mach projects.
Good luck on your next L3 attempt!
Would a single parachute that can be partially deployed to provide a drogue like amount of drag and then fully deployed for landing be simpler?
please release all 7 hours of footage
Foul mouthed collection of people working on something they are passionate about? Sign me up! Love to watch the behind the scenes chemistry.
+1 I don't mind watching 6 hours of that.. In fact I might walk away with a thing or two pieces of new knowledge
I don't think that a 6 hour uncut version would be palatable. Perhaps a 1/2 hour explanation? Kind of a walk through of launch week.
Same. "Yeet" is officially rocket science terminology (24:41)
Absolutely!
@@yelsew816 no offense, if you don’t want to watch it, then don’t. It doesn’t cost you anything. Personally I would watch the fuck out of that
The Lumineer 2 recovery system is going to be a work of art!
was*
In my eyes, the Lumineer recovery system is now, too :)
@@xerosfs No, there's no Lumineer 2 so far. This is Lumineer 1.
@@xerosfs Hey! I know you!
You know what I like about you? Your ability to be self-critical and therefore learning from failures. It's pretty rare to see that so well and you should be proud of that good Sir! :)
Yeah, that's why I keep coming back here.
I hope you don't mind if I add my 2 cents. I used to skydive, so I became very familiar with parachute gear that's used in high risk situations, and there are some very neat (not to mention tried and tested!) solutions to these exact problems you're trying to solve.
Your deployment method is almost exactly how a tandem skydive rig works, except way way more complicated. On a tandem there is a drogue that slows the tandem down, and that drogue is then used to deploy the main parachute. The drogue is held to the rig with a 3-ring release system (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-ring_release_system) which allows it to be released with very little force, even though it's under a lot of tension. It has a single bridle that attaches first to the three-ring release (preventing the main parachute from being pulled out), and then to the main deployment bag. Therefore a single line is all that's needed to release the drogue and pull the main out of the container, and that line is held in place with just a thin bit of nylon (through the 3-ring). The main deployment bag is attached to the top of the parachute, and the drogue remains attached to the bag, which means nothing is lost during the deployment. A single line means there is nothing to get tangled in the turbulent airflow.
We also had devices called automatic deployment devices (ADD) that would release the reserve parachute if we got too low (for example, losing consciousness or awareness in freefall). Those have a pyrotechnic cutter that cuts a very small bit of nyon to reliably release the reserve parachute. No need to blow up bits of metal, with a 3-ring release system it's only a thin bit of nylon holding the entire system together. Once that is cut, the aerodynamic forces do the rest. The cutters can actually cut steel rod, so are massively overpowered, but that's good when it needs to be reliable. You can buy the cutters without the rest of the device, and they just need an electrical signal to operate. The main manufacturer of AADs, Cypress, have never had a failure that's led to loss of life.
The tandem deployment method, 3-ring release, and AAD cutters put together would give you an incredibly reliable, well tested, and simple system. If you have a parachute centre near you, wait for a cloudy day and head down there. I expect you'll be able to find a packer who will happily show you the systems and how they all work.
One last thing I want to add is that it's possible that the nose-cone being attached to the drogue is what caused the failure. If the nose cone pulled the drogue lines around too much, it could cause it to collapse and then re-inflate repeatedly and with a lot of force. The drogue only needs to end up in the airstream, after that the wind will do the rest (how we deploy a solo parachute!) so keeping the nose-cone attached to the main body in a way that minimises the risk of entanglement with the drogue will probably be a much better way of doing it
25:51 Answering a phone call with "Go, Flight" is simultaneously the nerdiest and coolest way to answer a call.
I have a reputation to maintain!
2:39 'it was extremely not zero'. that's just the best quote ever XD
I think the way Xyla filmed the clips in the house gave me The Office vibes but with rocketeers
Seriously. This could be a Netflix show.
oh hell yeah! give us that 6-7 hours of footage :)
Yeah i’d love that
Please!
I enjoyed the behind the scenes stuff with a bunch of people messing around and going slowly insane. It gave me fond memories of messing around with my college buddies, which had a very similar vibe. I'd definitely be happier to see more of it.
You have no idea how much of an encouragement it is to see the people we look up to struggling and losing their minds over things. It helps to validate the difficulties we face and inspires us to overcome them. With that said, release the video footage XD
I absolutley love the depth and clarity of these videos. I am on the recovery sub team of the University of Akron Akronauts and we are currently developing a mechanically activated co2 based system for high altitude recovery deployment. Seeing the challenges here, some we have had on our launches that have had similar consequences to the ones you have had, really shed some light on how complex and nuanced recovery is. As with any new design or rocket there are learning curves and many unknowns when we strap it to the launch rail. All we can do from the ground after that engine is lit is cross our fingers and hope the other sub teams are forgiving when parachutes fail
Every flight you can learn from is a good flight. A great L3 attempt and we know for your next launch will be flawless. Also, ironically L3 is an individual achievement, although better achieved with the help of a strong team around you. Great video and breakdown.
I watched important parts of the video a few times and here are some suggestions and questions that I have:
- You already ask the question at 22:14 but I see a problem. If the drouge chute line is shorter that nose cone line, nose cone may hit the drouge while flapping around. Also nose cone line may entangle with drouge chute. And I guess that is what caused the issue.
- Can you show more of the remaining of the drouge chute? Where did it snap from? If it snapped due to shock I expect it to snap around the line connections and I expect snapped lines. If it snapped in the middle of the cloth, then I would assume it is something hitting there, like nose cone itself.
- I would also try to reduce the complexity by removing some of the lines & other elements. Here some suggestions:
* Elastic band is a great idea but don't attach it with another string, instead pass a small loop from main parachute line thorough elastic and when the main line gets tension it will release the elastic itself. It is heavily used in paragliding & parachuting world. You can an example at the end of this video: th-cam.com/video/TIp4nyZcUyY/w-d-xo.html Hope it gives inspiration.
* Can you remove the connections from tender descender from the god knot and only keep the secondary ones you put. (for the case if both TDs fire). Since removing that link doesn't change anything, TDs will still be connected to god knot with secondary lines. I am trying to reduce complexity by removing some stuff.
- And lastly, I hope the line from main bag the tender descender line is long enough. If only one of TDs fire then the load will go through tender descender line to line between main bag and tender descender line to drouge riser. Main chute line won't be loaded. And from what I see in 26:18 it seem like it is the black line that frees up after breaking TD. But it uses same connection type as the drouge unloader so I don't see keeping it because it will behave exactly same as unloader. Correct me if I am wrong but otherwise I don't see a point in increasing complexity.
Hey Icarus Thicccccarus, I would love to see a video of you and your rocket cluster losing their minds while prepping a rocket for launch 🙃
My hype for avionics is growing every video. Can't wait for the next video.
I would be up for watching footage of you guys just messing aroung with rockets in the house :-)
Watching this series has quickly made me realize my shortcomings as an engineer. Despite being on my school's rocketry team, I have very little experience or understanding of what really goes on when it comes to the rocket I helped build. Things I managed to learn for this series so far: 1. Specializing on the engineering team has found me success and experience regarding the specific subsystem I was working on, which is great and good for growth. 2. The engineer at I am today, really does not like specializing as much as I had thought, I look back and feel as if I should've have been a bit more broad with my approach on the engineering team. Learning and experiencing a lot more. 3. In order to experience and learn a lot more, I'm gonna try to earn my certifications this summer.
That moan when the nose cone finally popped into place was really something
That's an amazing opening sequence!
We really appreciate you taking time to make these videos look visually appealing, in addition to all the work at goes into actually working on the projects!
Logging the correct data and being able to analyse that data post mortem to figure out what went wrong and improve on the next run is also great engineering. Good work.
I really like this style of video and the way the redundant disconnect for the droag is exactly the opposite of what your supposed to do when making an anchor for climbing
Hi Joe, I´m a skydiver and also really space flight interested. I´d suggest you contact a skydiving rigger. The problem you are trying to solve looks oddly simmilar to the drogue and main deployment of a tandem skydiving system. Right after exiting the plane at 14000ft the drogue chute gets deployed. It is getting held by a small steel pin which is holding back the main chute. once they reach about 5000ft the pin gets released. The drogue chute pulls out the main chute which is still contained in a sort of sack simillar to your approach. Once the lines are fully extendet the sack gets pulled of the main chute. Thats just a short explanaition of what happens. Im sure a rigger can give you a much more detailed explanation.
The systems used to deploy skydiving parachutes are wonderfull because they are super simple at their core yet solve very complex problems.
I´m sure they can also hook you up with the right lines, sail material and other stuff.
Cheers from germany
Robert
Can't wait for the avionics video. As a computer engineer all the cords and fires feel like pure magic. I am gonna enjoy watching a video from this channel that I could understand...
"Adventures of Rocket House", the glimpses I got from the Rocket House look like great material for a TV series.
IM INTERESTED. I did science Olympiad for several years in high school and this gives me MASSIVE S.O. Vibes.
I understand wanting to avoid more pyrotechnics, but relying on the drogue to pull out the main seems to add significant complexity to your lines, and makes both parachutes critical to mission success. (If either parachute fails, rocket go splat)
Have you considered using two independent pistons to fire two independent parachutes?
Then, even if the drogue tears itself to shreds, your main has a chance of opening, and also you don’t need a complex set of lines.
How would you fit a second pistons in there? Also my understanding is both parachutes are critical to mission success anyways as deploying the main chute at terminal velocity would tear it to shreds.
@@Pcat0 Perhaps, but apparently the rocket was going slowly for a while just cause it was falling sideways, and he implied that "the main chute almost came out on accident, which could have saved the rocket". The drogue shute will always serve a purpose, but it is possible that it could fail without mission failure if it is a separate system.
The main advantage is the simpler lines, since you get rid of the bag, the drogue release stuff, and the pyro-line cutter gets replaced with the second piston.
@@haph2087 adding a second piston would have increased vehicle's mass by a significant hence requiring a completely redisigned chute system increasing the mass further more and so on. In rocketry you cannot let yourself get in this trap
@@aringangal6614 well, it replaces the two tender descenders, so It’s not like it’s just added weight. It also simplifies the design, which is helpful.
@@haph2087 the size of tender descenders are significantly smaller than the piston, so to accommodate one more piston you will increase the length of tubing and piston is comparatively heavier than the descenders. Also as the pistons cant be accomodated parallel to each other, one has to be placed on top of other hence increasing the complexity of connection and also compromising the strength of vehicle
I want you to know that I am grateful that the videos are still coming out. Thank you!!
6:01
First igniter: pffffff
Second Ingniter: BANG
"Wow. Okay. Noted"
Best quote of the video
He is getting sponsored.
*NOICE*
*NOICE*
Thanks, Joe, for all the details you share during your rocket builds. Very interesting stuff. For someone without an engineering background, you do great work. Keep it up, man.
All of this rocket stuff is very inspiring and interesting but also overwhelming! I’m thinking about using your tech in some of my rockets, but also making my own that is adapted from yours, as otherwise I would feel as though I didn’t even try to achieve a successful rocket model on my own. For around 2 years I’ve wanted to make my own “sugar rockets” but I never knew until now that I could make much more sophisticated and interesting rockets. Keep up the amazing work !
that personal video between you and your friends was awesome! if if the other recordings are anywhere close to that part - it'd be super interesting & fun to watch!
I might suggest using a circularly polarized antenna for the telemetry receiver so the linear antennas on the rocket doesn't go through a 30 dB cross polarization hit when they are at 90 degrees to the receive antenna. And I'm sure you have figured out that the transmit antennas need to be either external to the airframe as a blade type antenna, or located nowhere near metal which will detune the antenna and make it much less efficient at radiating the signal. There is some chance the small whip antennas you are using are expecting a counter poise (the other half of the quarter wave element) as part of the mounting in order to be resonant. You can check this by disassembling an antenna to see if the coax actually feeds the center point of the antenna and there is an internal counterpoise that looks like a tube over the top of the coax in the direction back toward the connector. If you have the internal tube, you don't need an additional counterpoise. Feel free to take the internal parts of the antenna and push them through the body of the rocket, fashioning an airfoil over it using your 3-D printer. Make sure there is no carbon in the airfoil you create. Some plastics absorb RF. One way to test this is to place the plastic you want to use in a microwave oven for a few seconds to see if the plastic gets warm. Getting warm is bad. That means it is absorbing energy which will reduce your radiated power.
Good luck and thank you for all the well documented videos.
Take the time you need to make these video's. They are like a little present when they show up in my feed!!!
I recommend at looking into how skydivers pack their chutes, and how their lines work. Go to your local drop zone and just ask, I've never met bad people at a dz. The bag that holds the chute has built in rubber bands (no hair ties that you have to further tie off). The bag opens wider, from the side. The risers are used to help pack the bag, so you're saving space. Downside is I don't know if you can find a bag in that style and that size; maybe get canvas, eyelets then custom build? Wishing you luck!
Love behind the scenes and making of video portions. It storylines all the hard work and teamwork!
Lots of raw footage is a great job for a 2nd channel! I would watch!
Gosh, it is so interesting seeing your post flight analysis, that’s the best bit, thank you. I think your key problem is insufficient force to separate the main bag from the main chute. Two possible solutions spring to mind, the second seems better. 1, put two drogues in series. If the end drogue works, it will pull the reserve tight if it is connected to the reserve’s apex. If that end drogue fails for whatever reason, the reserve drogue can open because it is not pulled tight. This system will not work if the failure mechanism for the end drogue also fails the reserve drogue, so it isn’t perfect. 2 Reduce the force needed to remove the main’s bag from the main chute. The best mechanism I’ve seen is a shiny pin, ring and cone for locking, and elastics to pull the bag open. A parachute packer from the WW2 or Korean War era will be able to show you the brilliant engineering.
I so look forward to your next washup videos, they are the best! Thank you so much:)
OMG, What a coincidence! I cannot believe I saw Andrew and Charlie from MIT on this video. I really miss you two along with other members of the MIT Rocket Team. Last week I attended a launch in upstate NY and was wearing my MIT Rocket Team T shirt. Even today I was telling a friend of mine how much Charlie knows about the history of manned space flight. It would be great to hear from you two. I'm sure you all are doing well.
I absolutely love you and your friends behind the scenes, more of this!!!!!
So much was learned! And that was exactly the point of doing all of that work. Great work Joe and team!
Another great vid! The biggest issue to me is complexity. It’s always a better idea to go simple, especially when gearing up for a cert flight. I recommend cleaning up the lines and maybe separating the main and drogue chutes into separate bays to prevent tangling and ensure deployment. This would take up more room and weigh more, however. I am loving watching your process, keep it up!
Start with installing a flap and some elastics to “lock” in he main d-bag closed until it reaches line stretch.
Secondly, consider building a stronger deluge with more reinforcing tapes or a different configuration: ring, ballute, cross, etc. Rob Warner FAA Master Parachute Rigger
I literally never comment on youtube vidjas but, dude... totally release that footage. The raw human part of the whole dealio is what people truly connect with and to have all that footage never see the light of day would be such a shame. a++ job lil homie
U don't only gain the most posible knowledge from your mistakes, but you make a comprehensive video to share that with everyone, thanks!
Joe: "AVA TALK TO ME!"
AVA: "lmao _ño_ "
I'm thankful that the swearing is bleeped. Count me as a vote for no fowl language or bleeped (as you've done here). Thanks for the great TH-cam content. Love watching and learning.
It’s the “who f@cking designed this” for me😂😂
These videos are excellent and it’s fantastic to see someone doing something with their time and interests! I for one would love to see the raw behind the scenes video.
Tender descenders are really fun to work with. But yeah, recovery is easily the hardest part to get right in HPR. Personally, I had a rocket, with a setup similar as yours, suffer a main deployment at apogee (+gps was dead), which sent us on a loooong journey to retrieve it.
When the drogue deployed and inflated, there wasn't much weight on it. It created a whip like effect on the lines and when it finally was tensioned, it was like cracking the whip with the heavy body at the end of it. That whip crack created a spike of energy that overpowered/oversped the parachute and blew it apart.
Acceleration telemetry at that moment should be able to confirm or deny this theory.
I've spent some time sailing in heavy winds and this isn't all that different from how spinnakers are launched, which are also often made out of nylon (or similar) materials.
Watched while sanding the fin root gussets on a 3” rocket. Lots of good ideas thanks.
"I'm fucking yeeting you into the sky, and you can come back if you want." hell yeah
What others understand as a mistake, for You this is part of the progress ... You do not want to be lucky, You want to fully understand Your subject, so mistakes are necessary ... I am a Big fun of Your channel. My big project is completely unrelated, but I love to watch people who know what they are looking for :) Regards
Yes, I would love to watch Joey b for through the five stages of grief while trying to build a rocket. In all seriousness though, this was cool to watch! Keep it up man!
Really love the dynamics of the crew
More formally known as the "Jesus Nut" but yeah I love it!
just like in helicopters!
Heh nut
Using “God” covers more religions. ;)
@@TheAnachronist >>> If one fails aboard a helicopter, I suspect EVEN AN ATHEIST would say, _"JEEEE-SUS!"_
😊😊😊
John 10:30
This was a wonderful documentary. I'm kind of new, about 6-7 months or so. I love what you do.
I'm a smart dude and i would love to be a part of this, but you "guys" are on a whole other level. Tis has been fun to watch (from someone who has always wanted to put something into space)
Man its great to see ya having fun again with these videos!
Publish it!I would love to see those 6 hours of you guys grooving around.
Most underated yt ever
How is 300k subs underrated?
@@Otzkar Because there are others with millions. Hence, 'underrated'.
@@Otzkar 300k is not much
@@Otzkar he builds rockets, thousands of hors and only 300k?
If you guys had said "he deserves more subs for the work he puts in" I would agree but saying he's underated doesn't only undermine the work he put in to get to this point but also shows a severe lack in perspektive. Have any lf you any idea how astronomically high the number 300000 is? 300000 isn't a small number. I think 300k clearly shows the apreciation many people show for his work and calling that underated is ignorant at best
The flat spin balance dynamics will vary dynamically based on the roll angle and how the fins are angled. When 2 fins got equal high loads it went nose down.
I would think you want a profile that keeps the rocket slightly below the plane, to allow for the variation.
I really love the way you share the data with all of us. When you show and explain something I understand it gives lots of credibility on the topics or points that I don’t.
Loving the matching black nail polish!
I want you to do all the commentary on my clips cause this is the 4th time I've watched your mid to highly technical clips and they're all waaaaay longer than mine. You really make the math & science easier to grasp and digest. Thank you!
Hey man, seems like you're having a lot more fun with this again, good job getting back to a place where you're comfortable and happy. Keep up the good work!
A very good presentation on how the shute works and believe it or not why it doesn't work. Cudos to you and the team.
Great job showing and not just your mistakes but the process that led to the decisions as well as what you are learning from the results. Your next attempt as others have said will be a work of art I look forward to your success!
Seeing the candid friend squad working out problems was really nice, and honestly made you seem even more relatable and interesting
Also hella cute ngl
Hey Joe. Had missed a lot of your videos last year and this one is amazing. The science of the drogue chute then deploy.. All your stuff in chute and bag and everything seems pretty tight.. Even the nose cone. So I think a looser cone with those shearpins and a looser bag or a shroud system would be better.. Then the drogue would have an easier time to pull out the main. Also good to get a more stout drogue... Your idea on a shorter upload line to keep the cone with the whole unit is a good one with less need for the pyro separators and other space gobbling stuff. I would have tried the route. My 4' 3-motor rocket had a 1" shock cord connected from the cone and body and the chute.. Cone slipped off pretty easy as it used the ejection pressure from the solid composite motors.
Can't wait to see if you get to try it again.
Eric
Amazing Video. Hope your next rockets systems work perfectly
Incredible Video! Yes we want raw footage!!!!!!!!
Amazing work all around!.. even though it didn't work as expected.... loved it!!
I love seeing more of your personality in these videos. This whole video is a masterpiece and I appreciate all of the work that everyone put into making this happen. Good shit
Sponsored by grammarly? Uh oh, dude.... what a legend.
Hey Joe, great vid and great to see you having fun shooting them.
Ref the sealing of the ematch in the pyrobolt, the term you’re after is obturation, in this case, reward obturation.
have a look at how they make pilot chutes for skydiving. there's a mesh bottom that stops the shock of air blowing out the canopy
We would definitely love to see the footage of you all working on Lumineer!
It's great to see you back in true form 😊😊
Fold the chute better. Look up packing a paraglider reserve. There are techniques which both aid and slow it's deployment. In real life this saves your life and doesn't break your back doing it.
If that isn't enough, add a slider. A small panel holding the lines together, push it up towards the canopy when you pack. When the chute tries to open the air pressure from the higher speed with hold that slider up against the chute stopping it from opening. As the drag lowers the speed the chute starts to win and pushes the slider down the lines towards the risers. This lets the overspeed situation work itself out. Used on real world RAM air parachutes, but also I believe some round parachutes.
Please upload the extra footage! It would be very fun to watch
This is gold! Keep up the good work, I'm sure you will manage to launch and bring it back successfully really soon.
Please publish that whole thing (do on the second channel so as not to anger the Algorithm gods)
I love the black nail polish! 😍
Grammarly glows in the dark. "Send everytext box on your computer through some american owned API" thats a great idea!
I dont know anything about this rocked building stuff, but i know something about parachuting.
and i would recomend to look at parachuting. espacialy deploying the chute. connection of the nosecone to the parachute.
i myself got a terminal velocity on the belly of about 55m/s.
my pilotchute has a diameter of 32". at terminal velocity about 50-70 kg of force are generated.
keep that in mind. these chutes have to be very sturdy. tandem- drogues that are kept in flight till deployment of the main parachute are even sturdier.
if u connect ur nosecone directly to the main and not to ur drogue/ pilotchute it will interfere much less with the whole system.
i hope it helps
25:00 The clock you hear in the background there is perfectly in sync right now with the clock hanging above my desk XD
Awesome Joe! Keep at it!
Also if you’re reading this I saw on the onboard footage the shroud lines got very tangled on the main. There is a brand called recon recovery they makes large high quality chutes with thiccccc shroud lines. Also they only have four shroud lines.
I love your low key humour thing, it's one of my fav things about these vidoes.
Publish the raw video! Us editors love it :). Great stuff, btw!
So impressed by your work!! Greetings from France
Would be great to see the footage you've got, seeing the thought process in that final preparation sounds pretty interesting.
I can’t believe how far he has come since 2016😩😩
I always thought that drogue parachutes were for pulling out the main parachute lol. You learn something new everyday.
Joe, I'd really love to see the video from the 3 cameras that didn't survive.
You mentioned losing the video from 3 of the 4 cameras. I assume you have not formatted or re-used the SD cards that were in those cameras? If so, there are a number of things you can try to recover the video files. I've successfully recovered data from many crashes and would be happy to discuss the process with you.
If you looked at his Twitter, the SD cards for those are either snapped in half or crushed, and data recovery isn't possible at that point.
I would ALSO like to see that video... The cards are crunched - like one is in 3 pieces, one is split down the middle, and one heats up as if it has an internal short. I'm sure the files are there, but the cards are unreadable. If you know someone who is able to recover footage from that type of situation, I'd pay good money for it. As I understand it, once that silicon is cracked, it's very hard to ever read that data again. :/
@@BPSspace Thanks for the explanation. Did you post pics of the damaged SD cards someplace? I personally have recovered data from smashed flash memory chips, but I was lucky and the broken part did not touch the silicon die inside the plastic housing. I was able to decap the chip and solder directly to the lead-frame with a microscope.
I would urge you to get word out to a data recovery company. There are several on TH-cam that show very extreme recovery scenarios in their videos. There's a pretty good chance that as long as the silicon die inside the chips is not broken, that a professional could help you. I hope you find someone to work with on this because I'd really love to see the video and think it might help solve the deploy failure questions!
You don't have any idea how long i have been waiting to watch your video.😍
Xyla Foxlin is such a fox!! Her TH-cam channel is also really good!
Question: why were the fins rotating while descending? EDIT: right around the 29:36 mark.
Release the vieeo! You all have such a nice dynamic!
The white board session reminded me of my rock climbing days.. harnesses , knots , safety pins etc etc..
Joe cursing makes me laugh because of how unexpected it is.
He's usually so well-mannered and polite that it's hilarious.
Amazing job! It's funny to think what might have happened to the deployment without that last minute Hair tie modification...