I LOVE how you discussed such a controversial topic about consent in love potions with neutrality and non judgement to leave it open to the possibility lies of storytelling. Also, I am really surprised by how you portrayed the idea of inserting our own biases in a good way into our stories. Truly brilliant take! Don't hide our true feelings!
The Mosou you bring up are a great example, thanks for that! And no I hadn't caught the Left hand reference 👍 love it. This was another timely one, was reconsidering why the local chapel for my characters was to the godesses of life and love, rather than the full set of Life, Time/Order, War, and Love
I'd never really considered love potions as something possible in my world. But now i think about it, it might work as a kind of blood magic. Especially in the context of my world's vampires.
I loved the points on the writer's vulnerability showing on the page and on analyzing the setting and how it interacts with the plot and characters. I'd love to hear more on this topic in the future, especially about integrating romance as a side plot (for instance, the idea of festivals works best in novels where the romance is the main plot).
So.... this is (IMO) the weakest point in my writing. I struggle with romance as a subplot. But I'm working on it, so maybe in the future when I feel more confident on the topic.
This was informative, I have an Elven clan that has a secondary effect to their Blessing (Racial ability), they are affected by love. If a member of this clan finds love, it shows in their eyes, if this love is reciprocal then it will have an effect on the Primary effect of their Blessing, Fire Magic. I'm really glad I watched today as I totally forgot about the love potion angle, as I actually have a use for it in the prologue.
hi, i just wanted to say that it's such a cool way to show how love can have effects on people and their magic (their Blessing you write of). I liked that idea very much, good luck with your work!
Absolutely brilliant!!! Perhaps due to the mediocrity common these days, I did not expect such a wonderfully crated look at the concept of love in fantasy. You articulated many of the muddled ideas floating around my head of what I wanted to incorporate into my own story while also expanding my perspective. Definitely worth a sub!
I love this! I wish every romantasy author watched this video. I wanna examine how my own story applies to each point you made: 1. One of my realms doesn't have the chance to show any romance/fertility-related festivals, but they do have a specific ritual for when they want to define the relationship as something more intimate than a typical friendship. It's called Solitude and it's when the two (or more) people involved have a conversation in private where they ask each other increasingly more intimate questions. It starts out with things like "Are you looking for romance or a different form of intimacy?", "Do you want children?", and "Will it be just us or do we want some form of polyamory?" and then reaches far more intimate details like "spice" compatibility and the like. It's a world where lots of different types of love are celebrated, as well as a world where being queer is as normal as being cishet, so it's the most respectful way to allow the people in solitude to negotiate and gives them the chance to opt out before they share the most intimate details about themselves with someone they might not be a good fit with after all. What I love about it most is that it literally begins by one party asking the other "Will you join me in solitude?" and I just think there's something so swoon-worthy about that 😍 2. While Realm 1 has a "You're either together or you're not" approach, Realm 2 has marriage (particularly between a man and a woman) as a huge fixture of its culture, and it's hugely important to relationships being seen as legitimate. As a result, when Realm 1 and Realm 2 come into regular contact again after thousands of years of isolation, some people in Realm 1 end up readopting marriage. This is because so many of their relationships would be seen as "less valid" otherwise which can cause problems if they're often interacting with Realm 2 and its people, or if it's interracial, the people from Realm 2 would probably want to tie the knot with their Realm 1 partners, and the Realm 1 partners are happy to go along with it simply because it's important to their love(s). 3. There's a lot of little ways that magic affects the romantic relationships in my story that I won't get into much, but my favourite example is the guy in the relationship choosing to learn magic from his love interest's world. It's a story of cultural connection vs cultural annihilation, with the big question being if their realms can peacefully co-exist or if she will sever them forever, so her agreeing to teach him the magic of her world shows that she has hope for their realms peacefully co-existing in the near future. 4. Ahhhhh clichés. There are some I adore, but I 100% agree that they fall flat when they're included without any substance. When I included an Only One Bed scene, it was a push for the characters to finally have a conversation they'd been putting off, as well as to illustrate this contrast between the closeness of their friendship (which is also leaning into romance by this point) and the metaphorical distance between their realms. So I think that's a pretty good example of using a cliché with purpose! 5. I don't think I need to say much on this last point since the previous ones imply it, but the development of the romance subplot is meant to run parallel with their two cultures also growing closer together. Essentially, the love my couple has for each other is one thread among hundreds (maybe thousands) of romances and friendships that build the hope that these worlds can peacefully co-exist, and that's how I show that love matters in this story 💖
1. My MMC's birthday falls on the feast day of the God of lust (Erec). 2. Among many other pairings, a faction of my Orcs are based on Mosou and their unique culture. 3. There are laws & consequences against using magic to influence/coerce another individual. Also, "lubrico" is a spell word 😏 4. I use my personal experiences of love to drive my MCs actions towards romantic partners (without being an obvious self insert of course) I love this video! Wishing everyone a very happy Valentine's Day 💘
This was a fun perspective on love in literature and storytelling, definitely enjoyed and now going to mull over ideas with it, thank you for your time !
thank you once again! I think a mistake I might make is making the love unrealistic, I've planned to write couples based on what their characters have in common and that the love doesn't overshadow their original good personal traits or even the plot, I even think how the love can make them better. But I'm often told "that's not how love works, look all those real people that don't have anything in common and they are together and how much they changed because of the relationship, but they still don't have anything in common. and don't forget the bad decisions they made out of love". and always at that point I think that I know nothing about love haha
I haven't studied as far into this as I want to yet but there is a proliferation of magic wife myths throughout the world that have some common threads
Im loving this video as someone working on a romance between someone from a culture where romantic relationships and marriage for breeding are seperate and someone who comes from a culture with no established relationship norms at all- its been quite a fun challenge! Eta- magic is also a huge influence on my relationship here because it's got a genetic component and high risk factor around mutation- hence the control around reproduction. The other person comes from a completely different type of magic system as well as culture - heightening the sense of that taboo even more.
Strangely, I find Dune--a book with almost zero emphasis on romance--to have one of the most intimate expressions of love I've ever read in Chani's song for Paul: ~~~~ Tell me of thine eyes And I will tell thee of thy heart. Tell me of thy feet And I will tell thee of thy hands. Tell me of thy sleeping And I will tell thee of thy waking. Tell me of thy desires And I will tell thee of thy need ~~~~ The song speaks of interpreting your partner's experiences and helping them to better understand their self.
Another great episode. This gave me a lot to chew over as I want to integrate romance into a new piece I'm writing, but was concerned that I would lack the tools to reinforce what I'm trying to accomplish.
Again, such a good episode. You made me care about romance. And of course, jaded people are that way for a reason. They can draw on the love that they used to feel. I like this approach you give. Since I don't read romance, I don't look for it in fantasy/sci-fi. The only thing I can mention offhand is from The first Hunger Games. When the announcement came that 2 from 1 district can live, and Katniss shouted Peeta's name, I knew they would end up together then. She was so animalistic and never considered why she felt emotions. But it was instinctual. You knocked this video out of the park.
"Inject your own truth into it" is a bit funny for me since I'm aromantic but I'm telling a story with romantic love as a major theme (as well as friend love and familial love), but my truth is to see the characters as full people with their own emotional agendas. What do they want and need? What do they value in the people around them? What do they love in the other person, no matter what form that love takes?
Since Star Wars is technically fantasy (space fantasy to be exact), I think I would say the best in my opinion is Gavi and Kildo from the High Republic Phase III book Escape from Valo. Most romances are just there, and I don't really care for them one way or another. But the relationship between Gavi and Kildo really pulled on my heartstrings, and wins by default for that if nothing else. It's also gay, so I'm admittedly biased. It's also one of the things that inspired me to come out to my parents, and it inspired the pairing of Elkar and Rikter in my own stories.
I am toying with a communal child rearing culture among orcs, but the main twist is that female orcs can "take" a human male and produce full orc babies from them (as well as from male orcs) but when male orcs "take" human females, it can only produce half-orcs. This gives an interesting balance of power in "reproductive war" where males become breeding stock and we have a very specific way to create half orcs, which are not even brought into orciah society, but more often get brought up in human surroundings, and are then considered monsters. So, just some fun, light romance. 😮
I'm not doing the tired old cliche of having my main pairing be a man and a woman. They're both dudes.🥰🏳🌈 I do like the idea of having different rules for relationships. I've been working on distancing my setting from medieval Europe. There will still be some strong similarities, and I'm keeping heraldry, but I want to make it more unique. Having different rules for relationships could help.
I always snicker a little whenever someone brings up the Mosuo as some shining example of an alternative family structure (its embarrassing how many people got suckered in by those BBC and Guardian articles!). According to writer Kelly Dawson: "Although there are individuals that do practice the polyamorous fantasy envisioned by outsiders, the reality is that most walking marriages are monogamous and aim for longevity. The revolutionary difference is that the Mosuo family structure does not depend on the stability of marital bonds - like it would, say, in an American household. If a couple breaks up, the man simply doesn’t visit his partner’s home anymore. Whether he sustains a relationship with his children is specific to the individual context." In other words, no child support! Neither law nor custom obligate Mosuo men to support their offspring, apparently. I can well imagine how respectful and obedient Mosuo women must act toward their men considering there is nothing stopping the men from abandoning them! Its easy to see why the Mosuo community is fast abandoning their tradition family structure in favor of the Chinese version of the nuclear family. Keep in mind the Mosuo are a tiny community of 40 thousand whose societal eccentricities have only been preserved by their isolation. It just goes to show how much writers need to be mindful of the implications of their worldbuilding. Before you base a fiction setting on a real world example, writers need to read the fine print and understand why it works, or doesn't.
I think you should consider more research. Try any of the following: 1. Parental Roles and Children's Socialization in Mosuo's Matrilineal Family by Y Zhong (2011) - This paper explores the roles of parents and the socialization of children within the matrilineal family structure of the Mosuo. citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=9ce8f794eb12a2c91a46fba1b04d3b2525502778 2. The Husband-less Societies of the Sino-Tibetan Marches in Matrix: A Journal for Matricultural Studies (2021) www.networkonculture.ca/assets/matrix/Volume%202,%20Issue%201%20(Mar%202021)/6%20The%20Husband-less%20Societies%20of%20the%20Sino-Tibetan%20Marches/6.%20Darragon%20%20Husbandless%20Societies%20and%20Matriarchal%20Queendoms%20in%20the%20Sino-Tibetan%20Marches.pdf 3. A Cross-Cultural Examination of Gender Roles and Gender Hierarchy in Mosuo Matriarchy with Some Comparisons to Western Patriarchy by S Knight (2023) - This paper provides a comparative analysis of gender roles and hierarchy in Mosuo matriarchy and Western patriarchy. digitalcommons.library.uab.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1279&context=inquiro 4. The gender impact of modernization among the matrilineal Moso in China by CL Luo (2008) - This thesis examines the effects of modernization on gender roles within the matrilineal Mosuo community. thesis.eur.nl/pub/7035/Chia-Ling%20Luo%20POV.pdf 5. Using evolutionary theory to hypothesize a transition from patriliny to matriliny and back again among the ethnic Mosuo of Southwest China by SM Mattison et al. (2021) - This paper uses evolutionary theory to explore the transitions between patriliny and matriliny among the Mosuo. drive.google.com/file/d/1skrLhhB54VPEyjOO0XK-T7qu0L4h_Ny1/view I like this one a lot because it takes into consideration the material conditions of the culture. 7. Mobile parenting practice among the matrilineal Mosuo men in Southwest China by Y Chen (2023) - This study investigates how Mosuo men use mobile technology for parenting in a matrilineal society. dr.ntu.edu.sg/bitstream/10356/169361/2/Chen%20Yingting_master%20thesis_final%20version.pdf If you have the money for a book, consider: 8. Gender norms among ethnic minorities: Beyond '(Han) Chinese patriarchy by S Du (2016) - This book chapter examines how gender norms among the Mosuo and other ethnic minorities in China defy Han patriarchy. Or alternative you can keep quoting *checks name*, Kelly Dawson.
@@JustInTimeWorlds Well let's start with the paper you say you really liked and see how well it stacks up to the points I made. Point one: Actual Mosuo marriages differ from the polyamorous fantasy typically expressed in popular media and in practice tend to more resemble a loose monogamy (Dawson). Mattison: not directly addressed, however she cautions in her closing sentence that the Mosuo "characterize their practices in terms of absolutes s (i.e., ‘we do things such and such a way’), but such characterizations change over time and are otherwise belied by variability in actual patterns of behavior." In other words, everything should be taken with a grain of salt. Mattison's paper concerns itself with the issue of matrilineal kinship system and does not address the intersexual relation dynamics of actual walking marriages (which is what Dawsonn and myself are addressing). Point two: Neither law nor custom obligate Mosuo men to support their offspring. Mattison: not directly addressed, however she does say that (in general) "matriliny has been associated with high rates of marital dissolution and correspondingly limited parenting by fathers." In regards to the Mosuo specifically, she stated that (in historical terms) "economic activities drew men away from their homes, making it necessary for women to manage domestic finances and activities. Sociologically, female centrality would have been a very likely consequence of protracted male absences. Male absences would also have lowered men’s paternity certainty and their interests in taking on the role of fathers." So the Mosuo men who, historically, spent a lot of time outside of their communities hedged their bets in regards to fatherhood. This is an important point to remember when writers are engaged in worldbuilding: if you want men to be invested in fatherhood they're going to need a good reason to do so (such as knowing with a fair degree of certainty that the children they are investing in are those they sired). Point three: Mosuo women treat their men well for fear of being abandoned. Mattison: not addressed at all. That said, if you think wives treating their husbands with anything less than the utmost respect isn't going to lead to abandonment in a society without child support or alimony, be my guest. By all means though, write that book, I'm always up for a good belly laugh. The Mosuo are a tiny community of 40 thousand whose societal eccentricities have only been preserved by their isolation. Mattison: not addressed at all, this is a paper about the historical development of Moosuo society, not their current marriage trends. Let's be real here, it's sheer delusion to think such a tiny community will maintain its traditions in an era of free movement and internet. Do any of those other papers actually address the points I made directly? Thanks though, like I said I always snicker when folks go to bat for the Mosuo! Now, if you nascent authors still really, really want to include a polyamorous fantasy in your worldbuilding, then that's ok, but if you want it to be believable you'd best take into account the fact that men aren't going to be too keen on investing into it.
@@Nizzet Point 1: Actual Mosuo marriage in the the CURRENT day and age differs from their historic context. Certainly. If that's your argument, no fantasy book can use feudalism or male orientated polyamory or anything from the past in their inspiration for world building as none of those things look the same today as they did in the past. Point 2: This is so irrelevant, I fail to see what you're trying to say. The Mosuo were a matrilineal society. The men were not involved in their offspring. There was no concept of patrilineal support because they didn't need it. Children were raised in the matrilineal household. Men were involved in raising their nephews, not their sons. Twentieth century concepts such as child support is utterly irrelevant to the fact that their culture existed. Mostly though, what are you actually trying to say? That you only want straight, monogamous relationships in your fantasy books? That's cool. Pick your authors accordingly. Read what you like my guy, no one is stopping you.
@@JustInTimeWorldsMattison's paper is is historical sociology. You're the one who recommended it, remember? And I did specifically say (four times) it didn't directly address my points, now didn't I? I'm saying there are many authors who mistake wishful thinking for realism, especially in regard to sexuality. If, as an author, you want build a seemingly realistic society then a tiny mountain enclave of 40 thousand people in one of the most isolated regions in Asia probably isn't the best place to start. Their ways are, as Mattison pointed out, unusual to say the least. And again, if you want to go ahead and build a polyamorous utopia anyway and want it to seem realistic, then you're going to have to figure in the perspective of men. As Mattison's paper points out, men aren't keen on supporting children that aren't theirs. This means that even in a society that is formally matrilineal such as the Mosuo, you'll still expect to see the formation of (informally) monogamous couples, just as Dawson pointed out. " The men were not involved in their offspring." Hmmm I don't recall Mattison's paper stating such a thing. They may not have been obligated to do so but that doesn't mean they didn't. Do any of the other papers say men weren't involved with their offspring? And no, Mosuo men apparently weren't much into supporting their sisters kids " we have limited direct evidence for significant male investment in sororal nieces and nephews" (Mattison 101).
@@Nizzet Okay. Let's say you're building a fantasy world. And people can throw fireballs. And dragons exist. Why are you drawing the line on realism on a polyamorous society? Also, where did I say this is a utopia? I proposed the Mosou as an alternative model of relationships, not a utopia. My whole channel is about fantasy world building. Last time I checked, no one can fly by magic or call down the power of lighting or tell the laws of nature to sit down and shut up while we're having a conversation. If I wanted to, I could build a world that has no genders. No sexes. The fantasy species populating the world reproduces by cloning. Or by magic. They go to the magical well spring of awesome thoughts and make offspring by combining their thoughts with each other. Or I could base a people on the flatworms, who are hermaphrodites and engage in a very weird mating ritual. It's a fantasy world. It's the author's fantasy world. What are you nitpicking for? You don't like it, don't read it. And yes, the other papers explain the model of the men weren't involved in their offspring. Mattison specifically explores the changes due to environment between the lake Mosou and the mountain Mosou and why they came about. It was interesting from a cultural development perspective to explore how cultures might change and why based on environment factors. Relevant quotes from the other papers: "Parental Roles and Children's Socialization in Mosuo's Matrilineal Family" by Y Zhong (2011): "According to this ideology, Mosuo households run through the mother's line, and children are raised primarily by their mothers and maternal uncles. Fathers play a secondary role in the upbringing of children, often living separately and visiting the family." "The traditional Mosuo family structure ensures that children grow up in a stable matrilineal environment, where the mother and her brothers take primary responsibility for their care and education." "The Husband-less Societies of the Sino-Tibetan Marches" in Matrix: A Journal for Matricultural Studies (2021): "The ‘husbandless’ matrilineal society of the Mosuo has long relied on the extended family structure, with maternal uncles serving as father figures to children." "Although Chinese society has been strongly patriarchal for centuries, the Mosuo have maintained a distinct matriarchal tradition where children are raised within the mother’s household, with significant involvement from maternal relatives." "A Cross-Cultural Examination of Gender Roles and Gender Hierarchy in Mosuo Matriarchy with Some Comparisons to Western Patriarchy" by S Knight (2023): "In Mosuo culture, children remain in the mother’s home throughout their childhood and adolescence. They are cared for collectively by the maternal family, which includes the mother, her siblings, and other female relatives." "The emphasis on matrilineal upbringing ensures that children develop strong ties with their maternal kin, fostering a sense of belonging and continuity within the family lineage." "Modern Matriarchal Studies" by H Göttner-Abendroth: "Mosuo children are traditionally raised in large, extended family households where the maternal line governs family life. The matrilineal kin group, particularly maternal uncles, play a crucial role in their upbringing." "This system allows for a communal approach to child-rearing, where multiple family members contribute to the care, education, and socialization of the children." "The gender impact of modernization among the matrilineal Moso in China" by CL Luo (2008): "In traditional Mosuo society, children are raised in their mother’s home, with maternal uncles acting as primary male role models." "The maternal home provides a stable environment for children, with a strong emphasis on communal living and shared responsibilities among family members." Mattison says he doesn't have direct evidence, but doesn't go into details about how he attempted to gather said evidence. It might just be that it's not written down since he was looking at the past and how the society might change. Again, his paper is interesting because it shows how a culture changes.
One of my favorite things in romance writing is when food is used as a vessel for the characters showing their love to each other. Another thing is using the five love languages to explore more into your character’s surface wants and needs and their deeper conflicts within themselves.
I LOVE how you discussed such a controversial topic about consent in love potions with neutrality and non judgement to leave it open to the possibility lies of storytelling.
Also, I am really surprised by how you portrayed the idea of inserting our own biases in a good way into our stories. Truly brilliant take! Don't hide our true feelings!
The Mosou you bring up are a great example, thanks for that! And no I hadn't caught the Left hand reference 👍 love it.
This was another timely one, was reconsidering why the local chapel for my characters was to the godesses of life and love, rather than the full set of Life, Time/Order, War, and Love
Glad it inspired :D I love that book for many, many, reasons :)
I'd never really considered love potions as something possible in my world. But now i think about it, it might work as a kind of blood magic. Especially in the context of my world's vampires.
I loved the points on the writer's vulnerability showing on the page and on analyzing the setting and how it interacts with the plot and characters. I'd love to hear more on this topic in the future, especially about integrating romance as a side plot (for instance, the idea of festivals works best in novels where the romance is the main plot).
So.... this is (IMO) the weakest point in my writing. I struggle with romance as a subplot. But I'm working on it, so maybe in the future when I feel more confident on the topic.
This was informative, I have an Elven clan that has a secondary effect to their Blessing (Racial ability), they are affected by love. If a member of this clan finds love, it shows in their eyes, if this love is reciprocal then it will have an effect on the Primary effect of their Blessing, Fire Magic. I'm really glad I watched today as I totally forgot about the love potion angle, as I actually have a use for it in the prologue.
hi, i just wanted to say that it's such a cool way to show how love can have effects on people and their magic (their Blessing you write of). I liked that idea very much, good luck with your work!
Absolutely brilliant!!! Perhaps due to the mediocrity common these days, I did not expect such a wonderfully crated look at the concept of love in fantasy. You articulated many of the muddled ideas floating around my head of what I wanted to incorporate into my own story while also expanding my perspective. Definitely worth a sub!
Thanks for the kind words and I'm glad I helped your writing process :)
I love this! I wish every romantasy author watched this video. I wanna examine how my own story applies to each point you made:
1. One of my realms doesn't have the chance to show any romance/fertility-related festivals, but they do have a specific ritual for when they want to define the relationship as something more intimate than a typical friendship. It's called Solitude and it's when the two (or more) people involved have a conversation in private where they ask each other increasingly more intimate questions. It starts out with things like "Are you looking for romance or a different form of intimacy?", "Do you want children?", and "Will it be just us or do we want some form of polyamory?" and then reaches far more intimate details like "spice" compatibility and the like. It's a world where lots of different types of love are celebrated, as well as a world where being queer is as normal as being cishet, so it's the most respectful way to allow the people in solitude to negotiate and gives them the chance to opt out before they share the most intimate details about themselves with someone they might not be a good fit with after all. What I love about it most is that it literally begins by one party asking the other "Will you join me in solitude?" and I just think there's something so swoon-worthy about that 😍
2. While Realm 1 has a "You're either together or you're not" approach, Realm 2 has marriage (particularly between a man and a woman) as a huge fixture of its culture, and it's hugely important to relationships being seen as legitimate. As a result, when Realm 1 and Realm 2 come into regular contact again after thousands of years of isolation, some people in Realm 1 end up readopting marriage. This is because so many of their relationships would be seen as "less valid" otherwise which can cause problems if they're often interacting with Realm 2 and its people, or if it's interracial, the people from Realm 2 would probably want to tie the knot with their Realm 1 partners, and the Realm 1 partners are happy to go along with it simply because it's important to their love(s).
3. There's a lot of little ways that magic affects the romantic relationships in my story that I won't get into much, but my favourite example is the guy in the relationship choosing to learn magic from his love interest's world. It's a story of cultural connection vs cultural annihilation, with the big question being if their realms can peacefully co-exist or if she will sever them forever, so her agreeing to teach him the magic of her world shows that she has hope for their realms peacefully co-existing in the near future.
4. Ahhhhh clichés. There are some I adore, but I 100% agree that they fall flat when they're included without any substance. When I included an Only One Bed scene, it was a push for the characters to finally have a conversation they'd been putting off, as well as to illustrate this contrast between the closeness of their friendship (which is also leaning into romance by this point) and the metaphorical distance between their realms. So I think that's a pretty good example of using a cliché with purpose!
5. I don't think I need to say much on this last point since the previous ones imply it, but the development of the romance subplot is meant to run parallel with their two cultures also growing closer together. Essentially, the love my couple has for each other is one thread among hundreds (maybe thousands) of romances and friendships that build the hope that these worlds can peacefully co-exist, and that's how I show that love matters in this story 💖
Your realms sound like a lot of fun :D Thank you for sharing and I'm glad you found value in the content!
1. My MMC's birthday falls on the feast day of the God of lust (Erec).
2. Among many other pairings, a faction of my Orcs are based on Mosou and their unique culture.
3. There are laws & consequences against using magic to influence/coerce another individual. Also, "lubrico" is a spell word 😏
4. I use my personal experiences of love to drive my MCs actions towards romantic partners (without being an obvious self insert of course)
I love this video! Wishing everyone a very happy Valentine's Day 💘
Awesome stuff ❤️
This was a fun perspective on love in literature and storytelling, definitely enjoyed and now going to mull over ideas with it, thank you for your time !
Love potions can be super interesting if you could undo them you could collapse a dynasty
thank you once again! I think a mistake I might make is making the love unrealistic, I've planned to write couples based on what their characters have in common and that the love doesn't overshadow their original good personal traits or even the plot, I even think how the love can make them better. But I'm often told "that's not how love works, look all those real people that don't have anything in common and they are together and how much they changed because of the relationship, but they still don't have anything in common. and don't forget the bad decisions they made out of love". and always at that point I think that I know nothing about love haha
I’m with you, my partner and I were friends before we were lovers 😃
I haven't studied as far into this as I want to yet but there is a proliferation of magic wife myths throughout the world that have some common threads
Im loving this video as someone working on a romance between someone from a culture where romantic relationships and marriage for breeding are seperate and someone who comes from a culture with no established relationship norms at all- its been quite a fun challenge!
Eta- magic is also a huge influence on my relationship here because it's got a genetic component and high risk factor around mutation- hence the control around reproduction. The other person comes from a completely different type of magic system as well as culture - heightening the sense of that taboo even more.
Strangely, I find Dune--a book with almost zero emphasis on romance--to have one of the most intimate expressions of love I've ever read in Chani's song for Paul:
~~~~
Tell me of thine eyes
And I will tell thee of thy heart.
Tell me of thy feet
And I will tell thee of thy hands.
Tell me of thy sleeping
And I will tell thee of thy waking.
Tell me of thy desires
And I will tell thee of thy need
~~~~
The song speaks of interpreting your partner's experiences and helping them to better understand their self.
Would like to see your take on "inter (fantasy) racial" romances, like elf and human, or even orc and say, dwarf!
Another great episode. This gave me a lot to chew over as I want to integrate romance into a new piece I'm writing, but was concerned that I would lack the tools to reinforce what I'm trying to accomplish.
Glad you enjoyed it :D
Again, such a good episode. You made me care about romance.
And of course, jaded people are that way for a reason. They can draw on the love that they used to feel. I like this approach you give.
Since I don't read romance, I don't look for it in fantasy/sci-fi. The only thing I can mention offhand is from The first Hunger Games. When the announcement came that 2 from 1 district can live, and Katniss shouted Peeta's name, I knew they would end up together then. She was so animalistic and never considered why she felt emotions. But it was instinctual.
You knocked this video out of the park.
Thanks Mark :)
"Inject your own truth into it" is a bit funny for me since I'm aromantic but I'm telling a story with romantic love as a major theme (as well as friend love and familial love), but my truth is to see the characters as full people with their own emotional agendas. What do they want and need? What do they value in the people around them? What do they love in the other person, no matter what form that love takes?
A good way to approach it :)
What is the worst and best fantasy romance you've ever read?
Since Star Wars is technically fantasy (space fantasy to be exact), I think I would say the best in my opinion is Gavi and Kildo from the High Republic Phase III book Escape from Valo. Most romances are just there, and I don't really care for them one way or another. But the relationship between Gavi and Kildo really pulled on my heartstrings, and wins by default for that if nothing else.
It's also gay, so I'm admittedly biased. It's also one of the things that inspired me to come out to my parents, and it inspired the pairing of Elkar and Rikter in my own stories.
I am toying with a communal child rearing culture among orcs, but the main twist is that female orcs can "take" a human male and produce full orc babies from them (as well as from male orcs) but when male orcs "take" human females, it can only produce half-orcs. This gives an interesting balance of power in "reproductive war" where males become breeding stock and we have a very specific way to create half orcs, which are not even brought into orciah society, but more often get brought up in human surroundings, and are then considered monsters.
So, just some fun, light romance. 😮
🙃😅
I'm not doing the tired old cliche of having my main pairing be a man and a woman. They're both dudes.🥰🏳🌈 I do like the idea of having different rules for relationships. I've been working on distancing my setting from medieval Europe. There will still be some strong similarities, and I'm keeping heraldry, but I want to make it more unique. Having different rules for relationships could help.
My marriage system has a man and woman raising their progeny as "normal" but there's also other arrangements that are considered just as valid
I always snicker a little whenever someone brings up the Mosuo as some shining example of an alternative family structure (its embarrassing how many people got suckered in by those BBC and Guardian articles!). According to writer Kelly Dawson: "Although there are individuals that do practice the polyamorous fantasy envisioned by outsiders, the reality is that most walking marriages are monogamous and aim for longevity. The revolutionary difference is that the Mosuo family structure does not depend on the stability of marital bonds - like it would, say, in an American household. If a couple breaks up, the man simply doesn’t visit his partner’s home anymore. Whether he sustains a relationship with his children is specific to the individual context."
In other words, no child support! Neither law nor custom obligate Mosuo men to support their offspring, apparently. I can well imagine how respectful and obedient Mosuo women must act toward their men considering there is nothing stopping the men from abandoning them! Its easy to see why the Mosuo community is fast abandoning their tradition family structure in favor of the Chinese version of the nuclear family. Keep in mind the Mosuo are a tiny community of 40 thousand whose societal eccentricities have only been preserved by their isolation.
It just goes to show how much writers need to be mindful of the implications of their worldbuilding. Before you base a fiction setting on a real world example, writers need to read the fine print and understand why it works, or doesn't.
I think you should consider more research. Try any of the following:
1. Parental Roles and Children's Socialization in Mosuo's Matrilineal Family by Y Zhong (2011)
- This paper explores the roles of parents and the socialization of children within the matrilineal family structure of the Mosuo. citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=9ce8f794eb12a2c91a46fba1b04d3b2525502778
2. The Husband-less Societies of the Sino-Tibetan Marches in Matrix: A Journal for Matricultural Studies (2021) www.networkonculture.ca/assets/matrix/Volume%202,%20Issue%201%20(Mar%202021)/6%20The%20Husband-less%20Societies%20of%20the%20Sino-Tibetan%20Marches/6.%20Darragon%20%20Husbandless%20Societies%20and%20Matriarchal%20Queendoms%20in%20the%20Sino-Tibetan%20Marches.pdf
3. A Cross-Cultural Examination of Gender Roles and Gender Hierarchy in Mosuo Matriarchy with Some Comparisons to Western Patriarchy by S Knight (2023)
- This paper provides a comparative analysis of gender roles and hierarchy in Mosuo matriarchy and Western patriarchy.
digitalcommons.library.uab.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1279&context=inquiro
4. The gender impact of modernization among the matrilineal Moso in China by CL Luo (2008)
- This thesis examines the effects of modernization on gender roles within the matrilineal Mosuo community.
thesis.eur.nl/pub/7035/Chia-Ling%20Luo%20POV.pdf
5. Using evolutionary theory to hypothesize a transition from patriliny to matriliny and back again among the ethnic Mosuo of Southwest China by SM Mattison et al. (2021)
- This paper uses evolutionary theory to explore the transitions between patriliny and matriliny among the Mosuo.
drive.google.com/file/d/1skrLhhB54VPEyjOO0XK-T7qu0L4h_Ny1/view
I like this one a lot because it takes into consideration the material conditions of the culture.
7. Mobile parenting practice among the matrilineal Mosuo men in Southwest China by Y Chen (2023)
- This study investigates how Mosuo men use mobile technology for parenting in a matrilineal society.
dr.ntu.edu.sg/bitstream/10356/169361/2/Chen%20Yingting_master%20thesis_final%20version.pdf
If you have the money for a book, consider:
8. Gender norms among ethnic minorities: Beyond '(Han) Chinese patriarchy by S Du (2016)
- This book chapter examines how gender norms among the Mosuo and other ethnic minorities in China defy Han patriarchy.
Or alternative you can keep quoting *checks name*, Kelly Dawson.
@@JustInTimeWorlds Well let's start with the paper you say you really liked and see how well it stacks up to the points I made.
Point one: Actual Mosuo marriages differ from the polyamorous fantasy typically expressed in popular media and in practice tend to more resemble a loose monogamy (Dawson).
Mattison: not directly addressed, however she cautions in her closing sentence that the Mosuo "characterize their practices in terms of absolutes s (i.e., ‘we do things such and such a way’), but such characterizations change over time and are otherwise belied by variability in actual patterns of behavior." In other words, everything should be taken with a grain of salt. Mattison's paper concerns itself with the issue of matrilineal kinship system and does not address the intersexual relation dynamics of actual walking marriages (which is what Dawsonn and myself are addressing).
Point two: Neither law nor custom obligate Mosuo men to support their offspring.
Mattison: not directly addressed, however she does say that (in general) "matriliny has been associated with high rates of marital dissolution and correspondingly limited parenting by fathers." In regards to the Mosuo specifically, she stated that (in historical terms) "economic activities drew men away from their homes, making it necessary for women to manage domestic finances and activities. Sociologically, female centrality would have been a very likely consequence of protracted male absences. Male absences would also have lowered men’s paternity certainty and their interests in taking on the role of fathers." So the Mosuo men who, historically, spent a lot of time outside of their communities hedged their bets in regards to fatherhood. This is an important point to remember when writers are engaged in worldbuilding: if you want men to be invested in fatherhood they're going to need a good reason to do so (such as knowing with a fair degree of certainty that the children they are investing in are those they sired).
Point three: Mosuo women treat their men well for fear of being abandoned.
Mattison: not addressed at all. That said, if you think wives treating their husbands with anything less than the utmost respect isn't going to lead to abandonment in a society without child support or alimony, be my guest. By all means though, write that book, I'm always up for a good belly laugh.
The Mosuo are a tiny community of 40 thousand whose societal eccentricities have only been preserved by their isolation.
Mattison: not addressed at all, this is a paper about the historical development of Moosuo society, not their current marriage trends. Let's be real here, it's sheer delusion to think such a tiny community will maintain its traditions in an era of free movement and internet.
Do any of those other papers actually address the points I made directly?
Thanks though, like I said I always snicker when folks go to bat for the Mosuo! Now, if you nascent authors still really, really want to include a polyamorous fantasy in your worldbuilding, then that's ok, but if you want it to be believable you'd best take into account the fact that men aren't going to be too keen on investing into it.
@@Nizzet Point 1: Actual Mosuo marriage in the the CURRENT day and age differs from their historic context. Certainly. If that's your argument, no fantasy book can use feudalism or male orientated polyamory or anything from the past in their inspiration for world building as none of those things look the same today as they did in the past.
Point 2: This is so irrelevant, I fail to see what you're trying to say. The Mosuo were a matrilineal society. The men were not involved in their offspring. There was no concept of patrilineal support because they didn't need it. Children were raised in the matrilineal household. Men were involved in raising their nephews, not their sons. Twentieth century concepts such as child support is utterly irrelevant to the fact that their culture existed.
Mostly though, what are you actually trying to say? That you only want straight, monogamous relationships in your fantasy books? That's cool. Pick your authors accordingly. Read what you like my guy, no one is stopping you.
@@JustInTimeWorldsMattison's paper is is historical sociology. You're the one who recommended it, remember? And I did specifically say (four times) it didn't directly address my points, now didn't I?
I'm saying there are many authors who mistake wishful thinking for realism, especially in regard to sexuality. If, as an author, you want build a seemingly realistic society then a tiny mountain enclave of 40 thousand people in one of the most isolated regions in Asia probably isn't the best place to start. Their ways are, as Mattison pointed out, unusual to say the least.
And again, if you want to go ahead and build a polyamorous utopia anyway and want it to seem realistic, then you're going to have to figure in the perspective of men. As Mattison's paper points out, men aren't keen on supporting children that aren't theirs. This means that even in a society that is formally matrilineal such as the Mosuo, you'll still expect to see the formation of (informally) monogamous couples, just as Dawson pointed out.
" The men were not involved in their offspring." Hmmm I don't recall Mattison's paper stating such a thing. They may not have been obligated to do so but that doesn't mean they didn't. Do any of the other papers say men weren't involved with their offspring?
And no, Mosuo men apparently weren't much into supporting their sisters kids " we have limited direct evidence for significant male investment in sororal nieces and nephews" (Mattison 101).
@@Nizzet Okay. Let's say you're building a fantasy world. And people can throw fireballs. And dragons exist.
Why are you drawing the line on realism on a polyamorous society? Also, where did I say this is a utopia? I proposed the Mosou as an alternative model of relationships, not a utopia.
My whole channel is about fantasy world building. Last time I checked, no one can fly by magic or call down the power of lighting or tell the laws of nature to sit down and shut up while we're having a conversation.
If I wanted to, I could build a world that has no genders. No sexes. The fantasy species populating the world reproduces by cloning. Or by magic. They go to the magical well spring of awesome thoughts and make offspring by combining their thoughts with each other.
Or I could base a people on the flatworms, who are hermaphrodites and engage in a very weird mating ritual.
It's a fantasy world. It's the author's fantasy world. What are you nitpicking for? You don't like it, don't read it.
And yes, the other papers explain the model of the men weren't involved in their offspring. Mattison specifically explores the changes due to environment between the lake Mosou and the mountain Mosou and why they came about. It was interesting from a cultural development perspective to explore how cultures might change and why based on environment factors.
Relevant quotes from the other papers:
"Parental Roles and Children's Socialization in Mosuo's Matrilineal Family" by Y Zhong (2011):
"According to this ideology, Mosuo households run through the mother's line, and children are raised primarily by their mothers and maternal uncles. Fathers play a secondary role in the upbringing of children, often living separately and visiting the family."
"The traditional Mosuo family structure ensures that children grow up in a stable matrilineal environment, where the mother and her brothers take primary responsibility for their care and education."
"The Husband-less Societies of the Sino-Tibetan Marches" in Matrix: A Journal for Matricultural Studies (2021):
"The ‘husbandless’ matrilineal society of the Mosuo has long relied on the extended family structure, with maternal uncles serving as father figures to children."
"Although Chinese society has been strongly patriarchal for centuries, the Mosuo have maintained a distinct matriarchal tradition where children are raised within the mother’s household, with significant involvement from maternal relatives."
"A Cross-Cultural Examination of Gender Roles and Gender Hierarchy in Mosuo Matriarchy with Some Comparisons to Western Patriarchy" by S Knight (2023):
"In Mosuo culture, children remain in the mother’s home throughout their childhood and adolescence. They are cared for collectively by the maternal family, which includes the mother, her siblings, and other female relatives."
"The emphasis on matrilineal upbringing ensures that children develop strong ties with their maternal kin, fostering a sense of belonging and continuity within the family lineage."
"Modern Matriarchal Studies" by H Göttner-Abendroth:
"Mosuo children are traditionally raised in large, extended family households where the maternal line governs family life. The matrilineal kin group, particularly maternal uncles, play a crucial role in their upbringing."
"This system allows for a communal approach to child-rearing, where multiple family members contribute to the care, education, and socialization of the children."
"The gender impact of modernization among the matrilineal Moso in China" by CL Luo (2008):
"In traditional Mosuo society, children are raised in their mother’s home, with maternal uncles acting as primary male role models."
"The maternal home provides a stable environment for children, with a strong emphasis on communal living and shared responsibilities among family members."
Mattison says he doesn't have direct evidence, but doesn't go into details about how he attempted to gather said evidence. It might just be that it's not written down since he was looking at the past and how the society might change. Again, his paper is interesting because it shows how a culture changes.
InsightfulAF
Thanks :)
One of my favorite things in romance writing is when food is used as a vessel for the characters showing their love to each other. Another thing is using the five love languages to explore more into your character’s surface wants and needs and their deeper conflicts within themselves.