Why Tesla HATES Vehicle-to-Grid (V2G) - It's not why you think.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ส.ค. 2023
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Also a neat product to prevent curb rash from MagBak (not a sponsor.)
#Tesla #TSLA #EVs - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
Come on Tesla live up to your mission of sustainability by allowing V2G!
I would appreciate at least V2L (for occasional use when camping, etc.). In my opinion, this should be the standard for an electric car today.
You get what you pay for.
There isn't a standard outlet in Tesla vehicles?
Well V2G its easy for Tesla to control every time you upload 1KWH Tesla can make a extra counter that counts driven KM + uploaded KWH just let 1 uploaded KWH be 5km
so if warranty is 160.000 km = upload 32.000 KWH after that warranty gone
if you drive 100.000 KM and upload 12.000 KWH (12.000 x 5 = 60.000 ) = 160.000 driven km warranty gone on battery but still 60.000 km warranty on drive line
V2G conflicts with one of Elon's main philosophies. He thinks when you are not using your car it will be used as a Robo-Taxi. Using it as VPP conflicts with that. That is why V2G isn't happening.
Agree completely
Why would I want to share a car with other human scum. Rather own a car, never have to wait for a taxi to arrive. Can always carry whatever I want in my own car.
It might have something to do about not selling powerwalls if your vehicle can be used instead.
also tesla sells a lot of powerwalls, why should they undercut themselves?
Not everyone will send their cars out for rent. I'd argue 90% probably won't, but let's say the number is only 50%. That's Gigawatts of power available for them to monetize via Autobidder. They're unlikely to leave that kind of money on the table.
It was great meeting you at Tesla Takeover! Thanks for the tips in growing my channel 🐍😎
Hope it was helpful.
@@FutureAZA Time will tell 🐍😎
i dont care about vehicle to grid but i do like V2H / vehicle to power my home as i have a Powerwall now but it only provides me about 12 hrs of power during an outage and many times where i am in the mtns our power is out for days at a time... so far this yr our electrc statement shows we had over 50 outages as PG&E will turn it off if even the slightest breeze kicks up... but with the Powerwall seemlessly switching over and back we usually dont even notice it happens..
Seems obvious in retrospect. Good observations.
If there were mass adoption of V2G I'm sure the buyback price would go down with supply / demand levers, but after it all settles out, the grid could become soooo much more stable. Especially if the customer allows the power company to control when your vehicle supplies energy to the grid.
My power company, Portland General Electric, already has a program where you get a discount if they control when your car charges. The Tesla charger supposedly can be controlled by them if you set it up that way. You could obviously override it if you need to. I want to try it but I haven't gotten around to it.
Edit: I wonder, if mass adoption of this took place, if some event would make most consumers hoard their power during an event. Like a power plant fire, foreign war, toilet paper shortage, etc.
A lot of people don't trust their utility to make these decisions on their behalf, and rightly so considering the track records of some of them. The easier way to control it is by setting your own price. That allows the power company to express their degree of need in more tangible ways.
Set your app to say you'll only give 10% if it's at a 30-cent premium, or half your battery if it's at $1, etc. This would allow the grid to still get the most affordable power during times of moderate demand while still having access to far more in a time of extreme need.
Tesla has to do it now that everyone else is. Maybe they need to add a 3rd item to the battery warranty in addition to time and mileage. Total kwh charged.
If I understand correctly, at the $2/kWh rate you mentioned, that sounds like uber-peak pricing... 10x normal rate. If the utility is actually paying that to customers, I'd guess it's maybe a few hours a day, not 24/7. Otherwise a regular customer's bill would be sky high. The appeal of VPP is to supply peak power without the expense of building/running another plant. But $2/kWh sounds very expensive.
Yeah, the math is completely wrong here. Everything is off by an order of magnitude. Shocked at how literally 0 ppl did the math before taking this mans word as gospel.
V2G is an interesting proposition though as the tesla fleet has 2m cars at 20kwh, that's like 40 Gwh of capacity or 10x more than what tesla energy deploys in a quarter.
THANKS BRIAN,🤗🧐FOR MAKING ALOT OF SENSE, AND WE LOOK FORWARD TO THE FUTURE 💚💚💚
What is the power rating of the HV to LV DC DC converter in the 2022+ Model Y. Anyone know?
Makes perfect sense, thanks for the explanation !
You can't just plug your car into the grid bidirectionally. You have to disconnect when the grid is down so you don't fry the sparkies trying to fix the grid. So you have grid tied inverters that track the grid and only supply to grid when it's up. You could put the grid tie in the car. Tesla has a more integrated approach. Theoretically, you could plug your car into a Powerwall and use its grid tie breakers. But your Fords et al, presumably ain't putting breakers in peoples' houses, so they'd surely have to put them in the car. Then all the stuff you say about wearing out batteries is perfectly right. Unless the carmakers abandon all efficiency and go with large LFP batteries. So GM with an LFP Hummer could do it....
Spot on Brian! They need to swap out the diodes for transistors! Not sure where they are on what batteries are going where to be megapacks? They have to have some 2170's still headed to those? They did in the past I believe. Even so they could manage them in the same manner. From what I have seen from the battery peaker tests is that a little is drawn across many spread out packs. So draw down is very little and easily replaced via solar on a roof. Your not pushing amps to charge faster to get back on the road when you recharge. I would like V2H at least to back up my home in a catastrophe and aid my 2 Powerwall's with the cybertruck. Short of that and I may have to hope for something that can replace it for less. Like turning a Leaf into a subaru baja...
I understand that the 1000V systems in Cybertruck and "Model 2" will have both the LFP batteries and the circuitry (by being higher voltage, lower ampacity) will support bidirectional rectification. AKA vehicle to grid. Also, being made in the highest numbers should facilitate a decent contribution as well.
I'm only aware of the Cybertruck being available with high-nickel chemistry.
Tesla would also lose a selling point/bonus of X# of free supercharge use (1 month or 3 months or some such) as individuals would simply 'fill up' and then 'sell' the energy by charging other EVs or batteries.
They would just shift it to a set amount of kilowatts rather than time.
I wish they made those curb rash protectors for my 2018 Model 3 Performance with 20 inch wheels😪
Your thoughts on VTG make total sense
I'm unsure on the safety of V2G does the house need to have a safety gateway fitted to stop any export when the grid is down to protect workers repairing the grid?
Existing tech. Note that this is also an issue with home solar, or rather would be if it hadn't been anticipated.
Same as solar, and same as home batteries. Tesla makes the "gateway" for this. And it should support the battery in the cars just as it supports the batteries in the wall. Tesla just has to enable it, and add it to the app so the customer has control.
Great thinking, Bryan, as always!
Thanks!
💪❤
They could just use software to have a separate”v2g odometer”not covered by warranty ? Or something like that
It would require new legislation. :(
@@FutureAZA the electric companies probably will try to stop this from passing
The Superchargers should be great places to do V-2-G. They just need new chargers and additional stalls so that owners that want to charge the grid and earn money can do so whilst they park.
These new chargers will then inform the grid that it can discharge the car at any time over the fixed time the car is available for.
The owner will get paid a small fee for making their car available and then a few for the amount of electricity that the grid uses. The owner can therefore set the length of time they will connect and the max amount the grid can take.
The car and the charger and the grid will then work out the details. Tesla can get a cut for for providing the service to the grid and to the car owner.
Let us sat Tesla takes 2% from the owner and 2% of the total transaction value from the grid.
The grid will then price the transaction and display the offer to the customer and they either accept of decline. Or Tesla can provide the grid prices on the Tesla App so people can easily see the prices and decide if they want to offer their car.
This is obviously a great arbitrage opportunity to charge fully at night when electricity is cheap at home and then if needed sell it back to the grid during the day even if one is nor using the car bur I can see stalls being solidly packed so Tesla will have to have max time limit after which it starts to charge people for over staying in the stall.
That MagBak looks really cool!
It's a simple, elegant solution that has the added benefit of not looking terrible.
Nissan leafs have V2G in Japan... It's a bit hard on their aircooled batteries. Here in Nz a friend bought a JDM import that had been used for this... Over 4000 "fastcharge" aka V2G sessions 😐
The low miles look great until you see the battery is exhausted.
I still think the main reason it forces Tesla to ban some vehicles from VtG when they offer free super charging
Those older vehicles don't have the necessary hardware, and the "free supercharging" they offer now has a lot more reasonable restrictions on it.
AND HELPING OTHERS MAKING RASH DECISIONS 😁
Right now V2G broadly doesn't make a lot of sense, its time is coming soon. The real savings right now is in the constrained part of the renewable cycle. The grid itself is the constraint here, so just diverting that wasted power to charging is a bigger and more efficient use. As the grid upgrades that will be less of an issue. Tesla power will then be in a very good position to capitalize. They can also roll out as the grid builds.
V2G is about upgrading to a renewable grid. You charge during the day due to excess solar power. Then release the power to the grid as solar generation decreases.
I would expect the Cybertruck to have 3kw output capability (as 120v output for tools / accessories / etc.) similar to the Lightning? While not true "V2G" - it should be able to provide some power to your home (especially in a power outage) I don't know if that could be setup to actually sell power back to the grid though?
The onset of 48v will bring the ability of V2G. It's actually built into cybertruck for future integration
It's about 48v being able to cope with V2G
Why do now when so few homes have the ability?
You really need to take an engineering degree. How can a little tiny 48 volt battery have anything to do with it? Houses have to be retro-fitted with equipment to do anything at all. I put 4 kw solar on (and 48 Amp. charging by myself).
@@tedmoss you should look into it. There's plenty of stuff on TH-cam about it. I'm not like you I research beforei spout off!
Ps weight is one .most important in EVs
It's so simple for tesla to implement should they choose. As far as battery warranty. Change miles driven to kwh hours used... that way battery usage is monitored for warranty instead of mileage 😊
Federal law requires 8yr/100k miles on the battery warranty. Owners would just leave them parked and cycling without racking up any miles. A full daily cycle would be 2,922 over 8 years for over 219,000 kWh sold onto the grid. Even a 50-cent markup means $100k in profit, and a car that's "like new" they can sell at the end of it.
Maybe give Tesla owners a choice of Robotaxi or Power Grid, if that would help(?) Cheers
Or both. They have the data to determine which has the best ROI. It would be wild to be eating dinner and get a notification saying "RoboTaxi demand is nearing peak. Would you like to disconnect the cable to it can be deployed?"
Enphase is slated to deliver a bi-directional EV charger next year. Joe Ordia on his Solar Surge YT channel visited Enphase earlier this year and captured a 45 minute or so demo of the Enphase bi-directional charger. According to that video, the bi-directional charger presents its self to the Enphase ecosystem as a (new) 5P battery. As such the Enphase controller sees the EV as simply another (bank of) 5P batteries. The demo is using a late model Nissan Leaf and the bi-directional charger demo features the CHAdeMO protocol. Now that the industry appears to be embracing Tesla's AC/DC plug and will likely support the CCS-2 protocol, bi-directional charging could be coming to Tesla vehicles sooner than we think. To some degree, the Cybertruck may be telling as it may or may not out-feature the F150 lighting since the F-150 lightning CCS plug supports both AC and DC. We will have to wait and see how it shakes out but if you want V2H from a vendor like Enphase, you can by yourself a late model Nissan Leaf and be using it for energy arbitrage or back up purposes in 2024.
To clarify, just because the plug supports bi-directional charging, or the charging standard using that plug supports it, it doesn't mean the car necessarily supports it. As mentioned in the videos, current Teslas don't have the necessary power electronics. The Cybertruck obviously will have power sockets to get some AC out of it (or the F150 owners would point and laugh), but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can get power out of the charging port. MY question is: If you can power some heavy duty welders and stuff trom an AC outlet in the truck bed, why not a house? Maybe not for feeding electricity back to the grid, but as a backup? I don't think I have seen a proper version of that, yet.
An Insta360 would help, being that you can correct the viewing angle displayed to actually see what was cut off at the edges
I thought Tesla did not do V2G or even V2H because of battery degradation, but then wondered why not with LFP? Brian, I am glad you added some more nuance to the topic. I have not done the math (or maths that the Brits like to say) because I am too lazy, but I find it hard to believe one can make $350K/year parking one's car and running it like a giant battery. Why not just buy 10 power walls, or a giga-pack (I guess Tesla only sells them B2B, gov., etc.), or even buy an LFP BEV pack from a wrecked car and jerry rig it to do V2G (maybe through the same inverter from a single powerwall...I suppose the utility wouldn't allow this)? Please build us a spreadsheet that shows that $200K+ can be made in a year and I will race out to the junkyard. ;^)
Only viable in limited locations where the cost per kWh during peak demand time is much greater than the cost per kWh during the lowest demand time. In places like Washington with hydro power (and its huge storage potential), there is no significant price difference. Idiots in CA that removed dams created the big cost disparity there.
@@DarylOster "According to a 2019, about half of U.S. investor-owned utilities have optional time varying rates for residential customers." CA, IL, and TX all have significant differences in rates depending on demand. That's a lot of people.
I'm on a plan where I pay a lot more than average from noon to 8 PM on workdays (250% more) and less than average every other time (30% less). I don't think my utility would pay more during peak times than I pay during non peak times. They won't offer variable rates if you have solar, so I think it would be impossible for me.
The $350k is per 8-10 years. Powerwalls cost about twice as much per kWh as the car, so it would literally cost half as much to use a brand new car's battery, plus you could still sell it as the warranty expiration approaches.
@@FutureAZA Makes much more sense...it's all your fault for not making it clear enough in your vid for my pea brain. And quit it with facts...I prefer to reason with emotion. I can definitely see why Tesla wouldn't want to fund the user's degradation of the battery through the warranty program.
Any potential to V2G with a retired BEV pack or no way the utility would allow?
Also, think about crisis situations. First, the mains electricity goes out. Then the car's battery runs out. You can no longer drive away from the crisis zone.
Or, you know, keep an eye on your charge, and when needed drive to somewhere you can get a charge, then drive back home for more days of power. Rinse and repeat as needed. For even more flexibility, get solar hooked up if you can.
You set limits in the app.
According to Jack Richard who looked into Tesla and V2G afew years ago Tesla just need an ota update to be V2G ready👍🇳🇴
I miss Jack. He was a hell of a tinkerer. Munro & Associates performed a full teardown (the kind you'd pay over a million for) and concluded that it lacks about $200 in circuitry needed to support V2G. I asked Sandy about this directly in an interview last year, and I trust their assessment.
According to TFL's Roman in his first interview with Elon, Elon said that they intended to do VTG - in 2014, so things changed since then.
But… what is 2014 translated from Elon-time into real-time?😂
5:27 Nobody wants a $300 set of curb rash covers when the wheel cost less on ebay.
You think replacement wheels are $75?
As much as I might want V2G, I would MUCH prefer vehicle to vehicle where if I am running low on charge and not around a charger, I could "buy" some charge from a closeby Tesla owner.. supported by the Tesla app. You could go onto the app and request nearby cars willing to provide you with a charge (maybe 10 mins/3% charge) for a fee. No more worries about needing a tow if you run out of charge.
AAA already offers mobile charging in a number of areas. This will become more common over time I'm sure.
All this advantage for V2G makes the assumption that the demand is there 24/7/52. Those hours that "earn" $2.00 per hour are relatively few each year, even here in expensive California. Don't count future chickens.
It doesn't have to be $2 to make financial sense. A single 70kW cycle at a 50-cent markup is $35. Even at once a day that's $1,050 for the month, or $100k over the 8 years of battery warranty (with 3,000 cycles on it.) Many batteries will be below the 70% capacity for a replacement in that scenario, since it would be the equivalent of driving about 600,000 miles. They'd get a brand new battery for free, and sell the car with near-zero miles for a tidy bonus.
Makes no sense to support V2G if it does not support the customer. Until We are compensated fairly per KWh I don’t want my car battery degraded. V2G does not support home backup, this requires expensive upgrades to the home electrical system.
No, it's the same equipment. And if you don't want to make your EV available for V2G when the time comes, that's your choice. But a lot of other people, especially in places like CA, will see a lot of value in helping maintain a stable grid for all. Of course there will be compensation.
It's very much a city-by-city situation. Some utilities work to motivate individuals to help with storage and generation, while others are outright hostile. Regardless of the place, it's ALWAYS an opt-in system.
If you're going to earn $2 selling your tankfull, you will need to sell it a peak times. Peak times are approximately 0700-0900 and 1600-1900 each day. Currently many people are working from home and emptying (or half emptying) your tank in these periods can earn some extra money, but then you need to refill on cheaper electrons over night or at solar peak in the afternoon. For all the people commuting to work (and back home), these are the most inconvenient times to have you tank empty. Tesla will pay to add hardware in every car. In the long run, what percentage of cars will have a daily schedule to make these earnings? The robotaxis will all be busy during peak times and return to their base mostly empty and ready to refill. Tesla's goal is to reduce emissions and selling cars that sit around is not a great help for that. V2G for emergencies may make sense, but even then, having an empty tank if you need to go to the hospital is not a good idea. Plenty of people on this forum will talk about their schedule, but it's not about us. Tesla has the statistics on driving habits and can decide if it's really worthwhile.
I can decide if it is worthwhile without any input from Tesla, the answer is a resounding no. Peak hours vary, they are not fixed in time or place or type..
Not $2 per tank, but $2 per kWh. That's what VPP owners can sometimes get in places like California. That's $100-$160 for the full capacity. If it's under warranty and the way someone makes money, they'll go as high and low as possible, as we saw with Uber drivers who got free unlimited Supercharging. This kills the battery, unless it's LFP.
Read some of my other replies to see more of the math.
@@FutureAZA I apologize for getting the amount wrong, but my argument still stands. The high amount of $2/kwh is at peak periods and those are the times most people want their cars ready to go.
And not everyone has a car so a powerwall is better .
AT the price for a Tesla (unless you buy a salvaged one) it would be more cost effective to put up solar and some kind of wall mounted battery bank. Humm I wonder what company would be making those.
You can buy a new Model 3 for $43k before incentives. Many are paying below $35k after all incentives. Even at a 50-cent/kWh markup, even cycling only once a day, you'd make $100k over 8 years and still have a car with no miles on it to sell at the end. The car costs less than the equivalent Powerwalls.
@@FutureAZA But that does not include the risk or cost of the equipment or the fact that the return will go down as more batteries become available which will put you out of business.
@@FutureAZA OH i didn't think of the equivalent kW, now me brain hurted. However our utility is only 11¢/kWh 24/7. The extra that you sell back to the grid at 11¢ is only ran as a credit that can only be applied to your bill if you have one. The excuse is that extra power credit you don't use (it expires at like 6 months) will go to help fund green projects in the region.
Hi Brian, can you comment on how TSLA chargers etc are shielded? How is it safe for such powerful chargers to be installed publicly, can you comment on their process?
I assume you talking about the charging cable and electrocution. My assumption is that the charger does not turn on the charging power to the plug until after it has established communication with the car. Should it lose the serial connection the charging power is turned off. 100% safe.
Nothing is 100% safe, but it is safe. How is the entire electric grid "shielded"? It is not. How is it "safe" to run a house with 3 air conditioners? They use a lot more power than my Tesla model Y. There is only the usual process as for all electrical appliances.
I'm not sure of the shielding, but I can tell you they shed very little beyond the cable. You can detect the EMF bleeding off a DC battery charger for your car from inches away (I have,) but the cable is dead on the outside, even when pushing 250kW.
Perhaps it is two layers of KISS. Tesla has a monumental task building out a desirable consumer experience. So:
1. Getting smooth and reliable 1 way charging is the first and most important step to mass adoption. Tesla putting resources into mastering cost, reliability and scale has to come first. There'll be time later. Im guessing Elon kicked and screamed while being talked out of of V2X on initial launch.
2. The average consumer us easily confused by simple concepts e.g. range anxiety. A more complex concept like bidirectional charging opens up much more FUD potential...kill your batteries, burn down your house, grid controlling your car means no power to drive in the morning and overload local lines and kill your neighbor's power etc. The confused mass of local regulations around selling power to the grid will confuse people and slow purchase decisions. Any model of car you want as long as it's a Model Y is time tested. Having all sorts of complexities per jurisdiction is likely also a contributor to the slow adoption of their solar roof.
V2G tech makes most sense as the car feeding back DC. Don't add cost and weight to the car with inverters, already have a DC pathway desugned for even higher currents, charging another car or batteries from your car us more efficient if conversion to AC is left out if it. I'd guess that the current reverse DC circuitry is already built in...send power back along chargeport rather than to motor inverters. Likely a software upgrade when the market is ready.
People buy an upgraded external charger if V2X is valuable to them, but car price by itself isn't increased. Business increasingly provide upgraded chargers at work to be competitive and capture the midday solar peak.
Society may eventually start to shun driving during the evening peak as your car should be connected at that time. More profit, fewer peakers and better use of embodied energy.
Work hours tend to get split as some come in early and leave early while others come in late and leave late. All to keep batteries attached during peak solar and peak grid demand. A side benefit: Evening rush hour gridlock gets reduced.
Vehicles that can handle fast charging can handle V2G with *external* circuitry if they lack it internally. That's most (all?) current Teslas, and can be done with existing tech. I don't think there's much real argument about Li-ion batteries being able to handle it given that they're lasting so much longer. If that's a real problem, all Tesla needs to do is modify the warranties to account for possible early replacement. Somebody making $300k over the life of the battery can certainly afford to cough up for the replacement themselves. The $300k is probably a gross exaggeration, but even if it's $20k based on actually using the car for normal driving it's still a good value proposition, and if it's less than that there won't have been much extra wear on the battery. Plus you get the satisfaction of helping create a stable, resilient grid for all. Also, don't forget that these spent batteries have a second life ahead of them as a home battery.
I think a lot of Elon's resistance is because he wants people to buy Powerwalls. But in a multi-day blackout situation Powerwalls hit a limit quickly, so people will want to be able to use their car battery. Also, many people have to have a car, but once they have that a Powerwall may not be the next electrification step with the most bang for the buck (they are, after all, relatively expensive). And because a Powerwall has much lower capacity it won't be as flexible for V2G purposes.
Elon needs to update his views on this. There's a current bill in the CA legislature that will force the issue by requiring onboard V2G capability for all EVs sold starting in 2030, but frankly it would be absurd to wait past 2025 for that.
I would buy an EV tomorrow if it could use V2G/VPP.
How does Tesla or any other BEV company handle the liability of V2G. When the power goes out the utilities require you to isolate the power from making the line into the meter from going live, this is because that puts the linemen at risk of electrocution.
What happens with V2G after a power outage and the car supplies power to the home then the AC kicks in along with the microwave all demand more power than is available. A Powerwall I expect has the power going to the main not an individual circuit.
These are questions I have not statements of how power backup works.
Existing tech. Same way home solar and powerwalls operate. The powerwalls are connected to a gateway, and this controls everything you are concerned about. The Gateway will not allow the grid to be back-fed if the grid is "down."
@@darelldd cars have many times the power of a power wall so if a street full of bevs connected to the grid lost main power the lines could still be live
@@jjamespacbell A typical BEV battery pack does hold more energy than a single powerwall. But that is irrelevant, as the Gateway is a switch. It's job is to disconnect the grid if energy is being supplied to the home from any other source while the grid is down. The same way solar inverters work, this prevents the grid from being back-fed. It doesn't matter how much "power" there is in the connected car batteries. We have this solved for solar and powerwalls. Car batteries are no different.
@@darelldd The switch you are referring to is required and only added when you add solar and or a Powerwall to the home circuit, I believe few people who get a vehicle with V2G realize that they will need to add an additional circuit to a switch to make it code compliant.
@@jjamespacbell Something like the Tesla Gateway will also be required to use any sort of official V2x. There will be competitors from every maker (Ford has taken a stab at it, and theirs requires the Ford switchgear). If you have a Tesla, you'll want to use the Tesla Gateway. While there may be "few people" who realize that they'll need the additional switchgear for V2x, that doesn't change the fact that they will indeed need that extra gear in order to make V2x function. V2x (It is so much more than V2G as it can power your house without the grid, etc) capability does not mean that people will just plug their cars into the wall, and be able to back-feed everything. It will require the safeguard of a gateway or similar.
This is not a matter of merely being "code-compliant." It is required for it to function at all. JUST like with a powerwall. There is no difference where the battery sits. The only difference is that Tesla does not yet allow the cars to act like powerwalls.
Disrupt their powerwall sales? :) Once all the others do it they will be pressured.
Powerwall sales are pennies to their bottom line. That's not a real consideration.
BRIAN, PLEASE: for the Cybertruck, why release the top model first? It would have the longest range and therefore use the most batteries and be the most expensive. People that have waited years on their deposits may not be able to afford the top end model, so are they to keep waiting years more for the mid or base model? Also semi needs batteries, the model 2 will need batteries, energy storage needs more batteries, isn't it logical that the Cybertruck could ramp faster if it is the model with less batteries? The Cybertruck is already so flashy, design, 48v, etc. does it also need to have the hype of the top end model released first.... IMO no. A high end model might be better a few years later to say our amazing truck is now even better. If there was a surplus of the 4680 I could see more of a point of releasing the top end model first, but as things are now, I really think the base model or a mid model with less batteries would be way smarter for the release. What do you think?
Their job is to make money. The higher end models are higher margin and lower volume, so make maximum use of limited build capacity while ramping.
@@scottgaree7667 They have every reason to ramp quickly. I wonder how much room for expansion there is at Austin. But I don't suppose it would even need to be within the existing building, strictly speaking.
@@stevebloom5606 Agreed, but we've seen them ramp 4 auto factories now. It simply takes time. About a year for an existing vehicle. Maybe 16-18 months for a new one. I think battery production will ramp quicker, it's relatively simpler.
Great question!
Top spec Cybertrucks require high-nickel chemistry batteries, which are not used in MegaPack, Powerwall, or any of the standard range models. Those are all LFP.
The semi uses Panasonic/Tesla 2170s made in Nevada, while the CyberTruck is designed for 4680s, with no indication yet they have a 2nd variant that can use 2170s.
@@FutureAZA GREAT REPLY, THANKS.
To follow up... Elon mentioned something about 2 more new vehicles, could one of them be a second line of the Cybertruck in a different trim? Based on the demand, starting with 2 lines and 2 versions would help with getting through the backlog.... is this possible? And will the Model 2 use 4680 cyber cells, or what battery will the Model 2 use? Lastly will the production of Cybertruck be battery constrained in any way... production / materials / pack assembly? What is the best way to fulfill 2 million backorders? Thanks for all your great videos.
V2g works other countries use it we don’t have it because of lack of standardization in USA while v2g does degrade battery sooner most car owners get rid of there car before that problem will happen
from watching a lot of youtube i got the impression that V2G with the ford lighting doesnt work with a shit, and is very finiky.
That wouldn't surprise me.
Nah, no one would use V2G often.
It's just nice to have when there's an outage at your house.
You could then even fetch home some electricity if the outage is long.
But when your car isn't at home, you need a Powerwall.
I think that's reason enough for Tesla having V2G.
Apparently you don't live in CA. We have grid issues that V2G will help with a lot. Plus of course people will be compensated.
I don't think many would abuse unlimited supercharging either, but plenty did. Lots of people bought cars for professional use, charging from near zero to 100% constantly, which not only costs for the power, but abused the batteries to the point that many needed replacing. This decision mitigates that risk.
@@FutureAZA In which case the use can just be limited to some reasonable amount consistent with the actual need.
Power wall sales
I already told you it wasn't why you'd think.
You are right - its not what i think. 😉
Why don't they? Because it does not make sense in terms of the mission (and no a lot overall). Cars are notoriesly mobile. You cannot plan on their presence anywhere, so they do not realy support the grid. If you are not at home, you could also do V2G at public chargers... does that make sense? 🤔
Tesla also wants to reduce the amount of battery capacity per car - but if you use it for driving and as a relyable backup battery, you need to combine both usages and so reduce the range to reserve for V2G.
And last but not least: your car is optimized for driving. In terms of energy efficiency and speed of transitioning to renewables, you Tesla should idealy do one of two things all day and night long: Driving or charging. There is no time in there to play home or grid storage.
Tesla has a dedicated product for each purpose, increasing optimization, utilization and lithium efficiency.
V2G feels good as a safety net for the owner during blackouts. But from a global perspective, it is pure vaste.
ONE car is not a reliable source of power for the grid, but a million cars is. It all comes down to averages. Anyone who works from home already has their car plugged in, so it can draw power at night, and feed it back in during the day when it's needed.
And we're not talking about the whole battery, but whatever portion of it you set aside. With an LFP pack, you charge it to 100% and tell the app you're willing to sell maybe 10% of it, that's no skin off your back. You still have a 90% charge if you need to (or want to) go somewhere.
10% of your charge likely wouldn't even register, but even at a markup of 50-cents/kWh (still cheaper than a peaker plant,) that's $2.50/day, or $912/year, or $7,300 over the course of the 8 year warranty. Bump it up to 30% of your battery and you're getting closer to "free car" territory, especially since you can still sell it at the end.
If only 20% of a million cars offers just 20% of their packs, that's a million kilowatts available. That's a whoooooole lotta juice, my friend.
@@FutureAZA What you say is true - and mostly focused on the individual owners point of view. If you buy the car and have it sit in the garage al the time, its great to be able to utilize it somehow. But you should not have bought it in the first place but opted for a powerwall.
On grid scale, i do not think that averaging brings you very far, because you have many common usage patterns, plus the fact that you cannot, as a grid operator, say: "ok, we have a thousand Teslas sitting in that streat, of which at least 20% will be present, connected and offering 20% of their capacity as grid level storage" - because you cannot depend on that.
If you deduct 10kWh (
V2G would cut into megapac business...
The market for stationary storage is still vast, growing, and practically untapped. Tesla would surely take a cut via AutoBidder, so they'd get paid either way.
It conflicts with the powerwall business.
How many powerwalls do you think they sell?
@MyTeslaWeekend Don't know, but a lot less if your car can do its job. Not a perfect replacement I know, but it would be much harder to justify buying a powerwall.
All they need to do is software update to allow DC breakers to be enabled for a home inverter to connect to.. done.. they should allow this. Personally i not but one until they do this.
It's not a software update. There is a missing piece of hardware. Sandy Munro told me it costs about $100.
Its software to open the high voltage DC connector, that can allow a home solar inverter to receive the full DC battery voltage from the pack. No intervention from the on board inverter.@@FutureAZA
Did not buy M3 with FSD for robotaxi. Bought the car for me & my family. No need for a dictator to tell me how to use my car!
Curb rash.. learn how to drive, don’t hit curbs. Easy. Napkin math shows me with around 120k miles on low profile tires (mostly Acura and Tesla). Never curbed a wheel. My wife, on the other hand, more than makes up for my failure to curb. 😂
I've curbed a wheel once in my life, but very few of my cars had low-profile tires. Probably less than 100k miles of driving.
Why on earth would Tesla do V2G that would eat into PowerWall sales.
The same reason Apple sold tablets knowing they would cut into desktop sales, and sold iPhones knowing they would cut into iPod sales. If they don't do it, someone else will, and they really don't sell that many Powerwalls to begin with.
@@FutureAZA true for now however they will be ramping up to millions of units and at that point they will want Tesla customers to buy a PowerWall in addition to a Tesla car.
All Tesla ports can already do V2G.
I think they don't want to canibalise Power Wall product. Disappointing. It does not show the full commitment to sustainable energy
That's not the reason. Powerwall makes up a near-zero percentage of their business. They could make more money managing the VPP via autobidder.
Tesla had enough corporate haters and the power industry has the MOST lobbyists of any . NCM batteries have a much lower cycle life than LiFe batteries, can you imagine the howling & moaning of people who bought the more expensive vehicles that they can not get that v2g windfall.
For sure. Tech is always improving though. People complain when computer prices and performance keep getting better, but it's how it goes.
You can buy that wheel protection kit or you can simply buy a black paint pen.🤦
That only hides existing damage, rather than preventing new damage.
Sorry, I don't get it. Where did the energy in the car battery come from? Are you somehow charging for free? They'll never sell you juice for less than they'll pay you for it.
They already do.
@@FutureAZA Who, where? Must be socialists. It will self-correct in a capitalist environment.
Going to watch the video but off the bat I’ll tell you it is because it cannibalizes their Powerwall business
Then it's indeed not the reason you think. ;)
To sell powerwalls
They don't do enough of that to even consider it as a factor.
If parking your car as a battery is so lucurative, why don't Tesla just put all their batteries into megapacks?
Each of those shipping container size Megapacks generates about $400,000 in gross margin. This tells me they're doing both.
@@FutureAZA Yet, afaik they were prioritizing the cars when they were battery constrianed. If that is so, parking your car as an electricity arbitrage play, seems counter intuitive.
No, they don't; and Cyber will have "vehicle to grid"
-a 220v outlet.
You can heat your apartment with a George Foreman grill, but it's not the same thing.
V2G COMPETES WITH POWERWALL.
Elon loves money & don't want us clever robots not using my Tesla at home in case of emergency. Got To buy a Powerwall! What a waste of money & clean energy. Better buy Ford Lightning To do it!
Tesla would be responsible for Battery Damage or quicker degradation
100% correct.
Is tesla having v2L?
CyberTruck will. The rest will hopefully follow fairly soon.
Lfp should be v2g
Agree entirely.
Curb rash, so much would be gone if we could just go back to high profile tires. Just one more reason why I'm looking forward to my Cybertruck.
It does look cool, but I'd rather have utility.
V2G I dob't see that. V2H is smarter.
So someone is going to buy a Tesla to power their house and never drive it? So how would the car get recharged if it never moves? Ohhhhh....you could connect it to the house and charge the car, then have the car charge the house. Yeah....see how stupid that sounds?
It's already a thing. People do this with Ford lightning trucks in Texas. Don't assume something is stupid just because the concept sounds unusual. Sometimes the assumption you need to challenge is your own
When you engineer a product for a specific job, it will not work as well at other things. The earnings will go down as more batteries come on line, those imaginary profits will disappear. You have just done a stupid thing. Ruined your car for no benefit. No one will guarantee the battery for such use.
Mostly right. LFP batteries are fantastic for stationary storage because they can handle the full drain & charge cycles, and more cycles overall, but they have lower energy density. That makes them less well suited for automotive applications, but they've progressed to the point where they can still do the job.
Most of the companies installing stationary storage have moved away from high-nickel chemistry because of this. LFP is not only better suited, but cheaper. It's a double-whammy.
But if your car already has the type of battery best suited to a stationary application, might as well carry it forward.
V2G not all that important. Sounds cool, but just puts complexity for edge case usage and more battery degradation.
One fire and thr headlines will be: Tesla's burn down houses
Why are you so out of breath?😅
Because the only thing my mom gave me apart from grief was asthma.
Tks for your honest answer Brian!
Totally wrong! Sandy is no electrical engineer. Every Tesla ever made is 100% ready for vehicle-to-grid operation. Any serious VTG system uses external inverters, like Ford does. All Tesla would have to do is sell an external inverter and program the DC contactors to close. Also they could easily track VTG operation and deduct it from the warranty period. Tesla does not offer VTG because they want to sell Powerwalls.
While it may be the case that Tesla does not want to cannibalize Powerwall sales, the same could be said about Enphase and their bi-drectional charger. Since their bi-directional charger presents the EV battery to the Enphase ecosystems as a 5P battery, Enphase could run the risk of hurting their own battery sales via their bi-directional charger. I seem to recall Elon mentioning V2H during a call and said something to the effect that a Tesla EV battery could supplement a Powerwall, I am fairly convinced that Tesla can too develop a bi-directional charger that presents the Tesla EV battery to the Tesla ecosystems as a Powerwall just as Enphase is doing.
@@gordonlowe5405 Bottom line, Tesla doesn't offer VTG or VTH because of anything lacking in the car, rather its business reasons.