I was just going to say don't let the fact that they never use the plane discourage anyone. the amount of information that they gathered from this project was immense.
To the Dark Documentary Team: I'd like to thank you for your videos. They are terrific. I also would like to say to the critics of this channel that getting illustrative and 100% historically accurate video clips is not like ordering a popular DVD on Amazon. I imagine that often they are extremely difficult to obtain. Dark Docs is extremely informative and entertaining and the narration is unique and well done! Dark Docs rocks!!!
Conspiracy theorists will say they purposely make false statements to engage the audience in comments. Realists wills say they’re not doing quality research. @smugglednews7453 will bury his nose in their ass and say it smells like flowers 🤷♂️
@smugglednews7453 indeed but they do often make blatant mistakes. The creation is good but it sometimes seems like the just don't have the best quality control.
First place i ever took a plane ride was Republic Airport in Farmingdalr. Awesome picture of the facility. Jets would roll off and taxi. In the end it was A10's. I can see the orange and white jet wash barrier along 110. LI was quite magical at that time.
These vids make me shake my head at how things are now. Back in the day there were multiple companies who could and would throw their hats in the ring. They did their best to actually deliver what was asked of them within budget and on time....now it's do you want something from Lockheed-Martin millions or billions over budget and years late....or do you want something from Boeing millions or billions over budget and years late.. the military industrial complex no longer has to be innovative nor fast, they have pet politicians to pull in the government pork for them, they just have to deliver good enough sooner or later ( usually later ) and they'll keep getting tons of cash shoved at them
Back in the day it took 2 years to get a security clearance performed by several ABC lettered agencies. Heard Edward Snowden got his in 2 weeks. Before the mergers there used to be 1000's of small companies that would subcontract to the majors employing thousands. So many different points of view on how to approach things. Today all those little companies are gone. Replaced by a single rich assholes corporate building that's a monument on how to fuck people over.
One of them still exists today, the radar-nosed version. Wiki says.... "The surviving prototype, 46-0680, is exhibited in the Research & Development Gallery at the National Museum of the United States Air Force at Wright-Patterson AFB in Dayton, Ohio.[3][4]"
you must admit "thunderceptor" is an awesome nickname: it could fit with another ac/dc monster hit, some kind of "thunderceptor (thunderstruck Part II)"
I love these so much. Military requests for aircraft are such interesting pieces of history in themselves. They show the perceptions of the time and fears of potential futures. From WWII through the 60s, companies and research institutions race to out do each other, going beyond the ask and truly innovating. We learned so much from well developed “failures” like this, influencing every next “leap” forward. Kinda sad we’re just using more refined and efficient tech from 1969, at latest, to watch a video like this on a tablet in a Boeing or Airbus.
We should have VR by now... or holograms... Hell we're flying at 30k feet why not moving flight simulators? Ohh right? Reality and economics... so close to Jetsons! 👾 Pardon! I had a rant stuck in my American throat. I digresss... I wholeheartedly agree with @mikesalmo. Very well put Sire! That's one of the many reasons I appreciate their channels so much! A LOT of insight into the way things were before, why we tried developing some whacky aircrafts, and what we have today because of these ugly ducklings. I bet those wonky wings shook and wanted to snap off if anyone was ever brave enough to try actually maneuvering this plane like an interceptor is intended for.
My step-grandfather was colonel in the US Army Air Force in WWII and then the USAF. After his military service, he settled in the Hamptons (Long Island) and worked for Republic. After his death in the mid-1970s, my grandmother quickly remarried and moved across town. As a 10 year old at the time, I had to help with the move and when I was poking through stuff in the attic, I came across "blueprints" for this jet marked "Top Secret." My grandmother quickly took the documents and I never saw them again, even after her death and my father's death recently. I recall her saying we shouldn't be looking at them because they were top secret. Even as a ten year old, I knew that was absurd as this jet went obsolete two decades earlier. Still, it would have been cool to still have them.
As soon as you said "Delta Dagger" the XF-91 was doomed. I firmly believe the F-102 was copied by the French to create the Mirage family. That bad boy was the king of the Cold War alongside the Navy's F-4 Phantom which was not far behind.
The F-102 was very mediocre. Which led to it's similar-looking successor to be designed, the F106 Delta Dart. The F-106 was the hot plane of the Cold War, not the F-102
The Mirage is a french development. Dassault is an engineering powerhouse comparable to Skunkworks. Lived next to an airbase with Mirage squads. Superbly elegant plane.
04:00 - That is the way to do it, keep the mainplane wings wash around MACH 1 well away from the tailplane with its elevator, in lateral longitudinal alignment. 😎
Videos like this make me a little sad that there are only Boeing, Lockheed, and Northrop-Grumman these days. Gone (absorbed/merged) North American, Republic, Vaught, Convair and others.
Well, mainly because better solutions were found. The basic problem with rockets is the very limited fuel supply. The XF-91 platform was designed to ensure the wing would stall at the root rather than the tip, making it easier to retain control, not fall into a spin. Also variable incidence, like the F8U. Steve Ginger’s ok is probably the best reference. Other mixed power interceptors were the Saunders-Roe SR-53/177, and the early Mirage IIIC could be fitted with a rocket mainly to boost climb rates. F-102/106 with the SAGE system were the ultimate solution before ICBMs supplanted air breathing bombers.
I was a youth of about 11 when these projects were being announced and it was exciting, looked like aviation would be my chosen career. While that didn't pan out, I did collect many plastic models of the military aircraft of the period and did have a plastic model of the XF-91, with Lindberg (if I remember correctly) the maker of the model though the aircraft hadn't gone beyond the prototype stage.
Nice video. Thanks. But the XF91 was NOT the first COMBAT plane to break the sound barrier in level flight. It never went past experimental, never went into production and therefore was never involved in combat. Likewise it was not the first experimental plane to break the sound barrier in level flight. So it set no record in that regards. Otherwise good video.
Just from looking at the deformed atrocity seen on the thumbnail, i know that this thing was designed only to collect flight data, and experiment in as many ways at one time as possible
No, they installed them inside out, NOT BACKWARDS. If you want to see backwards, look for pictures of the X-29 (a F-5 with wings that were REALLY backwards - though not specifically F-5 wings).
I call it "Warp Drive" but I take your meaning. Reminds me of the "enhanced water" system in WW2 pilots used in their Thunderbolts to increase their speed. We still have something similar called Super-Cruise onboard the F-22 and B-1 platforms.
Fear was intense, I was only about 11 when this was all taking place. There is a mis statement here about the Soviet jets, alluded to as being supersonic at 1:40 but they weren't, only subsonic.
Never take your enemy lightly. Arrogance in war is the quickest way to taste defeat. Korean War and the Vietnam war should’ve only lasted as long as the first war with Iraq. But it didn’t…
Today maybe, but at that time, they were the mighty soviet military. Remember, this is 1949. So this was the same military that steamrolled over Germany in WW2. The same military that showed the world that they had the atomic bomb, just 3 months after the XF-91's first flight. peace
@@ChickSage Stalin didn't care about his troops. It is well known that soviet soldiers were told to lock arms at the elbows and walk across a mine field to clear it. When one was blown up, another was made to take his place.
@@queasylagumo It's well known that there were rumors to that effect, but that may have been the result of witnesses who misunderstood what they were seeing. They had the commissar system with political officers who were equal in standing to regular commanders and these commissars were more willing to treat men as expendable. They would execute anyone considered a traitor or coward. So if ordered to move forward, men may have done it out of fear rather than it being a defined instruction with the intention to clear mines. Better to chance a mine than the certainty of a bullet. Some troops might not have known that minefields were in their path until they were already taking casualties. At that point fear could easily take hold, causing men to rush heedlessly in any direction, but backwards, to escape the danger. This would look to an observer like they were ignoring the danger posed. So basically there is no documented instance of Soviet troops being ordered to ignore minefields. Certainly the Red Army was callous with its men and prisoners, but according to my friend Dr. Jones PhD, only tangential or unverified evidence exists, in regards to such mine clearance tactics. Russia might not seem mighty, when it comes to conventional warfare, today, but they still have a big enough nuclear arsenal to destroy all life on the planet :( peace
Cool video. Very informative. Thumbs up for sure. Constructive criticism "USAAF" is a mouth full of letters. "US Air Force" is quicker to say (four syllables vs five) and sounds clearer to audiences. Just my thoughts, great video again.
@peterstubbs5934 Sorry mate, you're embarrassingly mistaken, other than simply being aircraft and all that's involved with that in general, there's no equivalence between the Westland you've referenced and the subject of this doc lol... It appears you're the one that should "Keep up" mate... lmfao 😂🤣😂
Ya know what’s funny about these things? Pick up any flight journal or documents on how to fly, they all mention a Flat Non rotating Earth. Hilarious isn’t it? Research Flat Earth
It’s funny and scary how our technology especially computers and digital technology by the 70s was in most cases 50 years ahead of the USSR and China almost 70! When I took inspectors to a few SALT 2 treaty inspections IN THE USSR after the wall fell few of the scientists commented that it would have been very doubtful that one soviet missile would have left its silo and likely exploded on takeoff!! That’s how pour their tech and maintenance of their systems were!! This was in the late 90s that’s why they had to change TEMPORARILY because I predicted that once they got computer tech from us and others like France that the evil USSR would return and I am right
Hey Peter, what the hell are you talking about? There is no equivalence at all whatsoever between the make and model you are referring to and the one referenced in this doc. I'm a little embarrassed for you that you would confidently make such an erroneous claim lol. Just because the Westlands wings seem to be reverse tapered the spars are dead level... I don't even know why I'm wasting my words with this because there's so many details where you're wrong, other than being aircraft in the most basic ways there's simply no equivalence between the two examples It's like comparing the innovations of a model A Ford to a Lamborghini 😂 plus, The republic has swept wings for crying out loud lmfao. Any engineer at Westland would have had a deep gut chuckle about your comparison lol lol lol... "Keep up" he says... Bwaaaahahahaha 😂🤣😂🤣
I was just going to say don't let the fact that they never use the plane discourage anyone. the amount of information that they gathered from this project was immense.
"If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research."
- Albert Einstein
Lawn darts
WOW, never heard of the XF-91, great video.
I love your content, it takes me back to my early days of reading every book about aircraft I could get my hands on. Keep up the great work.
This man can hype up every plane
To the Dark Documentary Team: I'd like to thank you for your videos. They are terrific. I also would like to say to the critics of this channel that getting illustrative and 100% historically accurate video clips is not like ordering a popular DVD on Amazon. I imagine that often they are extremely difficult to obtain. Dark Docs is extremely informative and entertaining and the narration is unique and well done! Dark Docs rocks!!!
There is some brown stuff on your nose.
Conspiracy theorists will say they purposely make false statements to engage the audience in comments. Realists wills say they’re not doing quality research. @smugglednews7453 will bury his nose in their ass and say it smells like flowers 🤷♂️
Gag, Slurp, Swallow 💦🥜
@@JohnJohansen2 if you don't think this is a good channel you should leave. They have great stuff. Let's see your videos-are yours better?
@smugglednews7453 indeed but they do often make blatant mistakes. The creation is good but it sometimes seems like the just don't have the best quality control.
I've yet to come across a Dark vid that hasn't been both interesting and informative. Keep up the Great Stuff!!
First place i ever took a plane ride was Republic Airport in Farmingdalr.
Awesome picture of the facility. Jets would roll off and taxi. In the end it was A10's. I can see the orange and white jet wash barrier along 110.
LI was quite magical at that time.
These vids make me shake my head at how things are now. Back in the day there were multiple companies who could and would throw their hats in the ring. They did their best to actually deliver what was asked of them within budget and on time....now it's do you want something from Lockheed-Martin millions or billions over budget and years late....or do you want something from Boeing millions or billions over budget and years late.. the military industrial complex no longer has to be innovative nor fast, they have pet politicians to pull in the government pork for them, they just have to deliver good enough sooner or later ( usually later ) and they'll keep getting tons of cash shoved at them
Back in the day it took 2 years to get a security clearance performed by several ABC lettered agencies. Heard Edward Snowden got his in 2 weeks. Before the mergers there used to be 1000's of small companies that would subcontract to the majors employing thousands. So many different points of view on how to approach things. Today all those little companies are gone. Replaced by a single rich assholes corporate building that's a monument on how to fuck people over.
The SLS is the template for what you have described. It's so expensive that it is already doomed before it returns astronauts to the moon.
One of them still exists today, the radar-nosed version. Wiki says....
"The surviving prototype, 46-0680, is exhibited in the Research & Development Gallery at the National Museum of the United States Air Force at Wright-Patterson AFB in Dayton, Ohio.[3][4]"
you must admit "thunderceptor" is an awesome nickname: it could fit with another ac/dc monster hit, some kind of "thunderceptor (thunderstruck Part II)"
You always bring us interesting stories ... Thanks!
I love these so much. Military requests for aircraft are such interesting pieces of history in themselves. They show the perceptions of the time and fears of potential futures. From WWII through the 60s, companies and research institutions race to out do each other, going beyond the ask and truly innovating. We learned so much from well developed “failures” like this, influencing every next “leap” forward.
Kinda sad we’re just using more refined and efficient tech from 1969, at latest, to watch a video like this on a tablet in a Boeing or Airbus.
We should have VR by now... or holograms... Hell we're flying at 30k feet why not moving flight simulators? Ohh right? Reality and economics... so close to Jetsons! 👾
Pardon! I had a rant stuck in my American throat.
I digresss... I wholeheartedly agree with @mikesalmo. Very well put Sire! That's one of the many reasons I appreciate their channels so much!
A LOT of insight into the way things were before, why we tried developing some whacky aircrafts, and what we have today because of these ugly ducklings.
I bet those wonky wings shook and wanted to snap off if anyone was ever brave enough to try actually maneuvering this plane like an interceptor is intended for.
It looks lovely in all fairness.
In 1947 it was the USAF. Another good video with a few mistakes that stand out as usual.
WoW. This thing really exists. I thought I knew all the X type aircraft. Thunderceptor sounds like it comes from a Thunderbirds are Go episode.
When I was a kid I built every model jet there was, but I never knew about this plane. Great video, thanks.
Lindberg produced a model of this one.
I've stood next to this aircraft at the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force approx. 50 yrs. ago
Good video. The XF-91 had variable incidence wings. This was not real clear from the video. It shared that feature with the Grumman XF-10F.
My step-grandfather was colonel in the US Army Air Force in WWII and then the USAF. After his military service, he settled in the Hamptons (Long Island) and worked for Republic.
After his death in the mid-1970s, my grandmother quickly remarried and moved across town. As a 10 year old at the time, I had to help with the move and when I was poking through stuff in the attic, I came across "blueprints" for this jet marked "Top Secret." My grandmother quickly took the documents and I never saw them again, even after her death and my father's death recently. I recall her saying we shouldn't be looking at them because they were top secret. Even as a ten year old, I knew that was absurd as this jet went obsolete two decades earlier. Still, it would have been cool to still have them.
At 6:58, shows a bonanza-style V tail version. Did this "butterfly tail" fail due to flutter, causing the pilot to eject so close to the ground?
Thunderceptor!!! Fuck yeah!! Is he a Decepticon??!!
Autobot. Got torn in half by Budgetron. Then unceremoniously dumped aside.
As soon as you said "Delta Dagger" the XF-91 was doomed. I firmly believe the F-102 was copied by the French to create the Mirage family. That bad boy was the king of the Cold War alongside the Navy's F-4 Phantom which was not far behind.
The F-102 was very mediocre. Which led to it's similar-looking successor to be designed, the F106 Delta Dart. The F-106 was the hot plane of the Cold War, not the F-102
The Mirage is a french development. Dassault is an engineering powerhouse comparable to Skunkworks. Lived next to an airbase with Mirage squads. Superbly elegant plane.
@@808bigisland Dassault used the Fairey Delta 2 for their testing which lead to the Mystère-Delta and Mirage III
The Air Force also flew the Phantom - and probably had more of them than the Navy did.
The f-102 is almost a exact copy of the Avro Arrow.
The XLR-11 is the same engine that pushed Chuck Yeager (and several other pilots in the X-1) past the sound barrier in 1948.
04:00 - That is the way to do it, keep the mainplane wings wash around MACH 1 well away from the tailplane with its elevator, in lateral longitudinal alignment. 😎
Interesting aircraft,,,thanks 🇬🇧👍
I love all the "rube goldberg" stuff that the American aviation industry played with in the 50's and 60's.
Videos like this make me a little sad that there are only Boeing, Lockheed, and Northrop-Grumman these days. Gone (absorbed/merged) North American, Republic, Vaught, Convair and others.
Excellent Presentation thankyou
To be exceeded by the fantastic FX 86
Those are the most “puffy sleeves” of wings I’ve ever seen.
The picture in the thumbnail, at first glance I thought it was the "Goblin"!
Awesome thanks 😊
Thank you
Great video of a jet that was before I was born
Thanks, Dark Skies.
Just because it's a bad idea doesn't mean it won't be a good time
Great video, very interesting 👍
now THAT'S a bird I've never heard off...
Well, mine was quite opposite. It turns out that my brain surrender to physic 😂😂😂
Compare to the X-29 - which was a F-5 with REAL backwards wings.
Backwards TAPER does not make the WING backwards.
Continue your great work🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉 ❤ from sri lanka
she would be a great model kit !
It was allegedly the first jet aircraft to go supersonic in level flight ….with its rocket motors boosting it.
Looked a bit like someone built a plastic kit without looking at the instructions
Does anybody know where these prototypes are as far as museums ?
Radome fitted model is in the USAF museum in Dayton, Oh.
@@whalesong999 Thankyou
Must be a new addition to the museum outside of yellow Springs, Ohio
Sabre Dance = tip stall?
For some reason it looks good except for the one with the butterfly tail.
Physics don't surrender.
Audacious set of “tatas”😂
@peterstubbs5934 are you actually comparing the Westland Lysander to the XF-91? That's the craziest damn thing I've ever heard 😂
Love it
"Physics Surrendered to the Americans"
- Someone actually said this
Elevator quiver - oh mother... 😳🙃✝️
How come I've never heard of this model before?
Well, mainly because better solutions were found. The basic problem with rockets is the very limited fuel supply. The XF-91 platform was designed to ensure the wing would stall at the root rather than the tip, making it easier to retain control, not fall into a spin. Also variable incidence, like the F8U. Steve Ginger’s ok is probably the best reference. Other mixed power interceptors were the Saunders-Roe SR-53/177, and the early Mirage IIIC could be fitted with a rocket mainly to boost climb rates.
F-102/106 with the SAGE system were the ultimate solution before ICBMs supplanted air breathing bombers.
I was a youth of about 11 when these projects were being announced and it was exciting, looked like aviation would be my chosen career. While that didn't pan out, I did collect many plastic models of the military aircraft of the period and did have a plastic model of the XF-91, with Lindberg (if I remember correctly) the maker of the model though the aircraft hadn't gone beyond the prototype stage.
Nice video. Thanks. But the XF91 was NOT the first COMBAT plane to break the sound barrier in level flight. It never went past experimental, never went into production and therefore was never involved in combat. Likewise it was not the first experimental plane to break the sound barrier in level flight. So it set no record in that regards.
Otherwise good video.
This was a good one, I'd never heard of this aircraft before watching your video. Great upload, very informative.👍
The roll rate must have been useless for ATA combat, may have even struggled to roll with a bomber when using it's guns.
WHAT THE PLANE THAT DOING?
Just from looking at the deformed atrocity seen on the thumbnail, i know that this thing was designed only to collect flight data, and experiment in as many ways at one time as possible
👍👍
They literally installed the wings backwards and upside down.
No, they installed them inside out, NOT BACKWARDS.
If you want to see backwards, look for pictures of the X-29 (a F-5 with wings that were REALLY backwards - though not specifically F-5 wings).
Comment for the algorithm
500lbs of thrust? X 4 is on 2000lbs so guessing the rocket thrust was closer to 5000lbs of thrust per motor
Hyperspace button
I call it "Warp Drive" but I take your meaning. Reminds me of the "enhanced water" system in WW2 pilots used in their Thunderbolts to increase their speed. We still have something similar called Super-Cruise onboard the F-22 and B-1 platforms.
Russia never had supersonic bombers that threatened the US mainland.
Backfire could reach - barely - if it launched across the Pole or from Kamchatca.
But that is NOT what this video was showing.
Mighty soviet military? Try overrated soviet military. Just like we're seeing in the ukraine right now.
Fear was intense, I was only about 11 when this was all taking place. There is a mis statement here about the Soviet jets, alluded to as being supersonic at 1:40 but they weren't, only subsonic.
Never take your enemy lightly. Arrogance in war is the quickest way to taste defeat. Korean War and the Vietnam war should’ve only lasted as long as the first war with Iraq. But it didn’t…
Today maybe, but at that time, they were the mighty soviet military. Remember, this is 1949. So this was the same military that steamrolled over Germany in WW2. The same military that showed the world that they had the atomic bomb, just 3 months after the XF-91's first flight.
peace
@@ChickSage Stalin didn't care about his troops. It is well known that soviet soldiers were told to lock arms at the elbows and walk across a mine field to clear it. When one was blown up, another was made to take his place.
@@queasylagumo It's well known that there were rumors to that effect, but that may have been the result of witnesses who misunderstood what they were seeing. They had the commissar system with political officers who were equal in standing to regular commanders and these commissars were more willing to treat men as expendable. They would execute anyone considered a traitor or coward. So if ordered to move forward, men may have done it out of fear rather than it being a defined instruction with the intention to clear mines. Better to chance a mine than the certainty of a bullet. Some troops might not have known that minefields were in their path until they were already taking casualties. At that point fear could easily take hold, causing men to rush heedlessly in any direction, but backwards, to escape the danger. This would look to an observer like they were ignoring the danger posed. So basically there is no documented instance of Soviet troops being ordered to ignore minefields. Certainly the Red Army was callous with its men and prisoners, but according to my friend Dr. Jones PhD, only tangential or unverified evidence exists, in regards to such mine clearance tactics. Russia might not seem mighty, when it comes to conventional warfare, today, but they still have a big enough nuclear arsenal to destroy all life on the planet :(
peace
Dark Skies is improving….getting more accurate and using mostly pertinent footage to his subject…. Well done, I may re-subscribe!
Please, don't resubscribe, nobody cares 😂
The U.S.A.A.F. ceased to exist in 1948. It became the United States Air Force and completely separate from the Army.
One of the jets that were so ugly it hurt to look at.
LOL WHAT
Cool video. Very informative. Thumbs up for sure.
Constructive criticism "USAAF" is a mouth full of letters. "US Air Force" is quicker to say (four syllables vs five) and sounds clearer to audiences. Just my thoughts, great video again.
United States Army Air Force - prior to 1947, that WAS the correct abbreviation.
It may have been innovative, but it also just looked awkward. That girl was just a klutz.
Clickbait thumbnail for a pretty unremarkable plane.
@peterstubbs5934 Sorry mate, you're embarrassingly mistaken, other than simply being aircraft and all that's involved with that in general, there's no equivalence between the Westland you've referenced and the subject of this doc lol... It appears you're the one that should "Keep up" mate... lmfao 😂🤣😂
Ya know what’s funny about these things?
Pick up any flight journal or documents on how to fly, they all mention a Flat Non rotating Earth. Hilarious isn’t it?
Research Flat Earth
It’s funny and scary how our technology especially computers and digital technology by the 70s was in most cases 50 years ahead of the USSR and China almost 70! When I took inspectors to a few SALT 2 treaty inspections IN THE USSR after the wall fell few of the scientists commented that it would have been very doubtful that one soviet missile would have left its silo and likely exploded on takeoff!! That’s how pour their tech and maintenance of their systems were!! This was in the late 90s that’s why they had to change TEMPORARILY because I predicted that once they got computer tech from us and others like France that the evil USSR would return and I am right
Sorry mate, the Brits did this with the Westland Lysander in 1937. Do keep up.
Hey Peter, what the hell are you talking about? There is no equivalence at all whatsoever between the make and model you are referring to and the one referenced in this doc. I'm a little embarrassed for you that you would confidently make such an erroneous claim lol. Just because the Westlands wings seem to be reverse tapered the spars are dead level... I don't even know why I'm wasting my words with this because there's so many details where you're wrong, other than being aircraft in the most basic ways there's simply no equivalence between the two examples It's like comparing the innovations of a model A Ford to a Lamborghini 😂 plus, The republic has swept wings for crying out loud lmfao. Any engineer at Westland would have had a deep gut chuckle about your comparison lol lol lol... "Keep up" he says... Bwaaaahahahaha 😂🤣😂🤣
@peterstubbs5934 are you comparing the Westland Lysander to the XF-91? That's the craziest damn thing I've ever heard 😂