Your video was instrumental to me getting TDC finally figured out for a 350 that has an incorrect balancer and timing tab. Thanks for making it so easy!
Hello Owen! I have never experienced a person that is so unselfish with their time and dedication of helping his fellow car fanatic. I had so many questions in my mind about this process, (like), does piston have to be on compression stroke, and how does the stop know where the piston should be) etc etc etc. I read all your comments. I NOW get it. I had my 460 bbf dialed in before but did some engine work so want to check it again before I fire it up. Thanks A million Owen. You are appreciated sir. Blessings and cheers from Motown/Dearborn.
Thanks that's nice of you. Yeah, I just like talking about old cars. I've never owned anything newer than 1975, and I wish there were still lots of old cars on the road on any given day, not just car show Saturdays and Sundays. I'm pretty happy to share what little I know, if it means another classic will get out of hiding, and people can see it again. I like all makes, mostly 50s and 60s cars and trucks. Fun to drive, easy to work on, and from what I can tell, you can drive these old cars forever. I've got a '55 Pontiac that still has it's original engine, transmission and rear end. A buddy of mine has a 1920 Model T, that he's planning on driving coast to coast for charity: th-cam.com/video/qogkMsPo-2U/w-d-xo.html It's a good hobby. Cool that you're in Dearborn. I like your '67 Mustang, very nice!
@@owenrobertson Thanks Owen, It is a 67 S-code originally a 390 4 speed. Most of it's life has been a race car. Ran in the 8's but now a retired car put back to period correct for the most part. Just have a mild built 460, C-6 manual valve body, 9 in nodular with 4:11 gears. She is still pretty fast for a street car. So I went to fire up the car after engine work and it backfired big time. So I must have got the timing off. I did mark it though, all wiring is right. I think I should have erased the old distributor mark off and not had two, lol Will do the Piston stop tomorrow and get it right, lol. Take care. Blessings from The home of Ford Motor co.
@@robertclymer6948, nice! '67 and '68 are such good looking cars. There was a red '67 convertible in that movie "Innerspace", I always loved that car, had some Shelby stuff on it, and fender flares. The flares were a bit much, and the side view mirrors were terrible, but overall, it was a really good looking car: th-cam.com/video/SpanZh0xSo0/w-d-xo.html
Awesome video thank you so much, we are having trouble that has baffled us we know it's a timing issue but we are not sure why, are last place to look is the balancer and that's what discussed yesterday that perhaps the balancer was not correct.
love your video. great to see a young guy learning old school timing. sorry to say im very hard of hearing, at 59 years old. but your video was clear and audio was very good. i think you said you are 21 years old . so cool. great video, i also use a vacume guage to set up final timing and fine tuning. thanks again you are right on the money with finding tdc..............phil
So,how does one know when it is dead top center compression stroke & not exhaust? This became a plateau in my motor vehicle repair journey. I am glad I got this video--it has shed off some of the issues nobody wanted to tell me.
That's the easy part. Just pull the number one spark plug, and block the spark plug hole with your finger tip or thumb. Then turn the crankshaft with a 1/2" drive ratchet setup on the harmonic balancer bolt. As the piston comes up on compression stroke, the compressed air has no where to escape, so it blows out by your finger, you'll feel it. When the air blows out, just keep an eye on the balancer, the timing mark will be coming up soon and you'll be at TDC of compression stroke on number one. You could remove the coil wire, and turn the engine over with with the starter, with your finger blocking the spark plug hole, but the crank spins kind of fast like that, and it's easy to run it too far, and miss the timing mark. More control with a ratchet setup, but that's just my preference, either way will work. Just make sure you know where number one is, different car makers number their cylinders differently, which is annoying. If you don't have a repair manual for your car, you should buy one. And of course for this trick to work, your valvetrain needs to be fully installed, and rocker arms adjusted (up/down on the pushrod, while adjusting rockers on hyd lifters, never twist the pushrod between your thumb and fingers, very good mechanics will tell you to twist, terrible idea....too easy to accidentally end up with negative lash, up/down to find zero lash, up/down will never lie to you, once you have zero lash established, another half turn on the rocker arm nut will put you in the right spot). And you know it's not the exhaust stroke by putting your finger on the spark plug hole, because on the exhaust stroke, the exhaust valve is open as the piston comes up, so the air doesn't need to blow by your finger, it just goes out the exhaust port.
Yup, you've got it, make your piston stop tool a bit longer than the spark plug, and it'll hit the piston. It only has to be long enough to just hit the piston, it doesn't have to be an exact depth, but the farther in the hole it goes, the sooner it'll hit that piston. Turn the crankshaft by hand, with a socket set up, don't use the starter to turn the engine over, or you'll damage your piston.
Yup, you could stick something down the spark plug hole and when it goes up as high as it can go, you could call that TDC, and compare it to your timing mark on the balancer. That's only ball park though, you could easily be off by 4 or 5 degrees. Piston stops are made for people that want balls on accurate. If you want to find exact TDC, this is how you do it. The next time you've got a cyl head off, bring a piston to TDC, then keep turning the crank, it'll appear to be at TDC for a while.
on TDC of compression stroke shouldn't both int/exh valves b closed? and on TDC of exhaust the int valve is closed and exh valve open? would this help to tell u which TDC the engine is on.
Yup, and that's how I do it. I'll remove a spark plug, then jam my thumb or index finger in the spark plug hole. Then I'll turn the crank in the normal direction of engine rotation with a 1/2" drive rachet setup on the crank bolt. I'll keep an eye on the timing pointer and wait for the TDC line to come around. If it comes and goes, and air didn't try to blow passed my finger in the spark plug hole, I know that it's because the exhaust valve was open, and that's where the air went.
Think of it this way, you've got a running engine, all the spark plugs are installed, you turn the crank by hand, all the pistons come relatively close to the spark plugs, but none of them hit any spark plugs. Now you remove the #1 spark plug, and turn your crank by hand until your TDC timing mark on your harmonic balancer lines up with your timing pointer. According to your timing marks, the #1 piston is at true Top Dead Center (all the way up).
Great Video. Very nice cars, and a good tip. One question I have when you said experiment before you tighten the jam nut:What should I be looking for before? Im sure youll say watch for movement in the all thread but I'm still thinking the threads may snagg and give a false reading. Still a useful tip, I'm just overthinking it i guess. Thanks
As it comes back up, eventually it will hit your stop. When it does, once again your timing pointer will be pointing to a random spot on your harmonic balancer. Mark this spot on your balancer. Now all you have to do is measure the distance between the two random spots you marked on your balancer. Find the exact spot that's just in the middle of these two marks, and that's your absolute true TDC.
Before I tightened the jam nut, I installed the piston stop with very little all thread sticking into the combustion chamber. I verified that the piston wasn't hitting it, then I threaded it in, so that the piston would get very close to TDC, before finally hitting the stop. That's where you want it. This way, your two marks end up very close to each other on the balancer. The deeper the stop, the wider spaced your marks will end up. Just easier with the marks close together.
Your answer here addresses my only remaining question spot on. Thanks for articulating clearly. Great video, O.R.! Maybe my 455 olds will run as it should again once I do this. Beautiful cars, BTW!
Mr Robertson, here I am once again. You helped me a while back with my 1970 mustang not wanting to start and we found out it was the electrical wiring. I have a new problem now on a different mustang. It's a 1999 V6 3.8 with 103,000 original miles. My girl was driving it and she drove over a large rock, the rock ruptured the oil pan and she kept driving dry for about 3 minutes before turning the engine off. I removed the oil pan but did not see any metal shavings. I did however notice small drops of coolant. When I turned the engine by hand, piston number 5 pulls a small amount of antifreeze from the top which leads me to believe that the head gaskets are shot, also the top radiator hose is sucked flat like a flat straw. Would you recommend that I get a remanufactured engine or rebuild this engine with mild work like ported heads, ported intake and a more aggressive camshaft? I'll also be installing new rings and bearings. I can get a remanufactured engine for about 2,500. There is always the option of throwing in a 4.6 but I already have the 302 Windsor on the 1970. I appreciate your time and I hope to hear back from you soon!
You can go either way with it, but it's a shame this happened at only 103,000 miles. My wife's 2003 Ford Escape has 370,000 miles on it, and the original V6 is still going strong. We even tow with it: th-cam.com/video/2AIx0NuB3y4/w-d-xo.html Like you said, if you rebuild what you've got, you've got the luxury of being able to get that port work done, etc. That's the direction I've always gone in the past, rebuild what I've got. These days, it's all about crate engines, but back when I was young, I don't know anyone that was doing that. Back then, you simply rebuilt the engine you had, and you did exactly what you're talking about, port work, performance cam, higher compression forged pistons, fun stuff like that. I'm not into any of that hot rodding stuff these days, and there's no way I could afford the premium gas, if I built another 11 : 1 compression engine: th-cam.com/video/BMGtqMHeJj8/w-d-xo.html ...but it was fun when I was young. I've never bought a crate engine, but I might be biased, since I used to work at an automotive machine shop. Oh and if you do rebuild that engine, make sure they check those heads for cracks....probably just a head gasket though, like you said.
@@owenrobertson that's impressive work from your wife's V6! Do you still have that 1970 fastback? What kind of power were you making on that 11:1 engine? You're right about crate engines, I've always wanted to build a hot rod engine and now I have the opportunity to do so. Im going to pull the engine out this weekend and tear it down, I'll inspect all the parts and see what needs to be replaced then order the rebuild kit accordingly
@@0rvelazqu, my '70 Mach 1 came stock with an 11 : 1, 4V 351C, M code car, I bought it in 1989 for 550 bucks. I had a C code '65 Mustang coupe at the time, and I wanted to drag race the '70. I didn't go nuts though, just the basic stuff, port and polished heads, TRW forged flat tops, had the chambers cc'd and the heads shaved a bit for a true 11 : 1. The early 4V Cleveland was advertised at 11 : 1 compression, but it was actually around 10.7 : 1, if you cc'd the heads and did the math. I ran a solid Crower cam, roller rockers, 2.19" intake and 1.71" stainless valves, and a 750 double pumper on a single plane Weiand X-Celerator intake. It would rev to 7k, but it only made around 300hp at the rear wheels, and it never ran quicker than 12.9 in the quarter mile: th-cam.com/video/yr-sWL1fqmI/w-d-xo.html It had a B&M prepped forward pattern manual valve body C6 transmission behind the Cleveland, and 4.11 Detroit Locker in the 9" rear. Mostly I used it as a daily driver, so it was fine. It was my transportation to and from work, and I actually drove it from Vegas, where I was stationed at the time, to Sacramento, just to race it on a cool night at sea level. It ran high 13s in Utah, (4,200 feet elevation), it ran 13.3 in Vegas, (2,000 feet elevation), and it ran 12.9 in Sacramento (30 feet above sea level). It was a good car, and I put a lot of miles on it, but I enjoyed spinning it to 7,000 rpm too much, and the Cleveland's bottom end is not built well for that. I was running the Hank the Crank Cleveland oil mod and restrictors to the solid lifters, and a good oil pump, but that wasn't enough. The Cleveland doesn't have a third oil galley to feed the crank directly, like Ford's Windsor engines and SBC / BBC. You'd think Ford would know better than build a high compression, big port, big valve engine like the Cleveland, with only the two oil galleys that run through the lifter bores. You'd think they would have learned that lesson in 1965 when they had to build the 427 side-oiler, because the 427 center-oilers were starving their cranks at high rpm. Over the years, I spun more than a few rod bearings in my Cleveland, because they weren't getting enough enough oil at high rpm. Every time I spun a rod bearing, I'd have to buy a new crank, and a couple new connecting rods, and I'd be right back at it again, with a new oil pump as well, experimenting with both high volume and high pressure oil pumps. Mostly it held together just fine, and when it did spin a rod bearing, I wasn't too upset by it, replacement parts were a lot cheaper in the 90s, and I didn't mind the work, but I decided that I needed a new plan. I found a '69 Mustang Sportsroof, it was a 30 year old car at the time and it needed full restoration, but it ran. I paid $2k for it. I pulled the 302 and C4, and built a 10 : 1 460 for it, and this time I wanted low rpm torque instead of high rpm horsepower, and my new car wasn't going to rev anywhere near 7k. It got a fairly mild Crower solid cam, and the '70 Mach 1 got a new hydraulic cam, because I wasn't planning on revving that Cleveland to 7k ever again. That engine build video I sent you last time, that was the hydraulic cam Cleveland build. Anyway, I bored the 460 out to 472 cubic inches, polished the exhaust ports only, installed oversized stainless valves, high rise dual plane intake, and I re-jetted that same Holley 750 double pumper for the 460. I put headers on it, and ran a C6 with a shift kit and mild stall converter, and 3.50 Detroit Locker in the rear. It ran low 12s in the quarter with me driving it, and a very high 11, with my friend driving, it, because he's a about 50 or 60 pounds lighter than me. th-cam.com/video/SetbuZvM6IE/w-d-xo.html The track video and the dyno sheet are at the end of the video. It was a good car, but again, I was also using it as a driver to get around town, and even used it to get the kids to school. The good thing, was that it redlined at 5,200 rpm, so I never had an issue with oiling to the bottom end, and that engine stayed together. The hydraulic cam Cleveland stayed together as well, because you get valve float with a hyd cam way before you get 7,000 rpm. My tastes changed, and money got tight, and the Mach 1 needed premium gas. The 460, with it's 10 : 1 compression ran fine on cheap gas, but it only got 6 mpg......so really both cars had to go. I had sold my '65 Mustang coupe way back in 2006, after driving it for 21 years, and I bought a '63 TBird. I sold my '70 Mach I in 2018 and bought a '55 Pontiac. I sold my '69 Mustang Sportsroof in 2022 and bought a '68 Coronet R/T. The '55 Pontiac has it's original 287 V8, and it's pretty good on gas. The Coronet R/T is a 440 car, and I need to build that engine, so I'll be building it to run on cheap gas, but it'll still be expensive to drive. I sure do miss 2 dollar gas. So I went from four old Mustangs to just one. I've still got my A code, four-speed, '65 Mustang fastback, and that one was always my favorite. It's got a Comp Cams hydraulic roller cam in it, with roller rockers, and forged flat tops, and a Performer RPM intake and a 600 Edelbrock carb, and headers, but it's pretty mild really, mostly it's just really fun to drive. I haven't driven it in years, but I'm working on it now, and hope to have it back on the road soon. It was black when I bought it, but it's originally a Wimbledon White car, so I might go back to white with it. It runs and drives great, and the interior is really nice, it just needs some body work and paint. You've got a good plan on your V6 engine build, let me know how it goes.
Mr. Robertson how are you doing, life got busy with the family and trying to keep up with work. It's been 6 months since I pulled the V6 engine and I just finished rebuilding it. I decided to do a basic stock rebuild as this will be my daily driver. I have too many broken down ford's lol. I haven't been able to start it yet due to me crushing my hand with the engine and the radiator support. I don't think I broke anything but it's definitely going to be sore in the morning. I appreciate all of your useful information.
Your video was very informative, I'm currently having a hard time with my 1970, 302 mustang. It sometimes starts up and sometimes it won't. I have fuel, spark and air. When I used a TDC plunger and took my distributor cap off I noticed that the rotor was pointing about an inch to the left of the number one spark plug. I also noticed that the distributor clamp was bent upwards which didn't give enough clamping force. Headed to O'Reilly's right now to get a new clamp
Yup, get it clamped down, so it doesn't walk away on you. If it's not clamped down, it'll definitely move, and it won't take long until it moves far enough that it won't fire up the next time you try. When you're cranking it, and it won't start, you can hook up your timing light. The engine doesn't have to be running for the timing light to strobe, just the starter turning it over, will be enough to strobe it, as long as your coil is energized and you've got spark going to the plugs. Everyone knows that you can remove a spark plug wire, jam a screwdriver in it, and put the screwdriver next to a ground to check for spark, most people don't seem to know that you can do the same test for spark, by leaving the spark plug wire on the spark plug, and simply hooking your timing light to it. Hook it up to #1, then have someone turn the key to crank the engine, or use a remote starter button. Either way, now you can point the timing light at your harmonic balancer and get a pretty good idea of where your initial spark timing is set at. Turn your distributor as required, until it fires up, then set your initial timing where you want it, with the vacuum advance disconnected. You can also hook your timing light to all the other spark plug wires, and make sure that it strobes on all of them, it's a quick way to check for any fouled spark plugs. Good luck! Let me know what you figure out. Hopefully it's just the clamp, like you said.
@@owenrobertson thank you I appreciate your feedback. I'm still learning, we need more people like you that are willing to help! When I took off my #1 spark plug it had a bunch of black soot and fuel as well. Do you know what would cause for the plugs to become fouled? Would this also make the engine not start? The plugs have maybe 500 miles on them and I don't believe the engine was running rich. It has one of those Holley sniper EFI kits. I'm going to try the starter method like you described and clean all my plugs as well.
@@0rvelazqu, well I've never run that Holley EFI, does it detect air / fuel at all? Do you run an O2 sensor with it? Is that how it works? I've never looked into them at all. I've experimented with a modern O2 sensor before, with carbureted vehicles, and an air/fuel gauge, just to dial in my jetting, but I've never messed with fuel injection on an old car. There are lots of places online that talk about reading your spark plugs, and what you described, as you know, is a spark plug showing signs of your 302 running rich. You might want to call Holley's tech line about that. A 302 doesn't need a lot of fuel, and your EFI might be factory set up for SBC, as pretty much everything is set up for SBC, always has been.....at least for the 37 years that I've been in this hobby. I'm really lazy about changing plugs, the spark plugs in my Vette have about 10,000 miles on them, so yeah, you shouldn't be fouling out after 500 miles. I'm juggling too many cars, so the routine maintenance tends to get overlooked, and I mostly just fix stuff when it breaks. My wife's 2003 Ford Escape has over 90,000 miles on the spark plugs that I installed 6 years ago, when I made some youtube videos about a bad fuel injector in that car. Of course spark plugs will last longer in a car with computer controlled direct port fuel injection than they will in a carbureted car like everything I've ever owned. You've got the right idea though. Clean all of your spark plugs, get it fired up, put your timing light on it, then once your timing is dialed in, and locked down, just keep an eye on those spark plugs. If they keep reading rich, I'd call Holley and ask them about it. Lots of guys run that Holley EFI, so it must be good, and there must be a way to dial it in. Also, you could look for a youtube video on that Holley EFI setup, one that has a lot of views, then after watching the video, go down and read the comments. You can learn a lot from the comments section, maybe there are other people running the same EFI, that are also fouling spark plugs. And yeah, an engine can run with fouled spark plugs, but initial start up is trickier for an engine than continuous running, so theoretically, you could start an engine with half decent spark plugs, then drive 200 miles, running rich, and the engine probably won't die on you going down the road, or even at a stop light, it might run a bit rough, but it'll probably stay running. Then you shut the engine down, and it won't start back up, because initial fire up is harder than simply maintaining a running state. Now run out of gas while you're going down the road, and your engine will sputter for 10 seconds or so and then die. Foul your points, and at a certain point, when your points get bad enough, your engine could absolutely die while you're going down the road, just die, no sputter, just off, like you turned your key off, but in my experience you normally find badly fouled spark plugs when the engine won't start, it doesn't leave you stranded on the side of the road from what I've seen, but it might leave you stranded at a gas station or a restaurant's parking lot or something, when it won't fire back up. So yeah, if they are fouled bad enough, fouled plugs can prevent your engine from starting. Here's a tricky one. What happens when you fill up at a gas station that has bad gas in their tank? I found out the hard way. Had a 302 in my '75 Bronco, and the original 2 barrel carb. I filled up with gas, drove home from work, then I didn't drive it again for a week or so. A week later, I got in, and it wouldn't start. Like you, I had rotation, fuel, air, spark, spark timing, and valve timing. It should have started. Well it was a week since I had filled that tank, so I didn't even consider bad gas, I had forgotten all about that. Anyway, I'm 10 miles from town, so even if I did suspect bad gas, would it make sense that I filled up with bad gas, and then drove home 10 miles, and it ran fine? At least I think it ran fine, I can't really remember, and I wasn't thinking about any of this in the moment, I was just trying to understand how a '75 Bronco with good spark plugs and good spark, and gas and rotation, wasn't starting. My wife kept telling me that maybe it wasn't getting gas. Well I had looked down the carb, cycled the throttle, and I had watched gas being squirted into the engine. I knew it was getting gas. The third time my wife told me, that maybe it wasn't getting any gas, I was pretty upset, but I kept my calm, and simply pulled the fuel hose off of the carburetor, then I calmly told my wife to watch the engine while I tried to start it. She has no idea what the fuel hose is, or the vacuum advance hose, or the heater hose for that matter, so she didn't know what was going to happen. So I turn the key, and the starter does it's job, and the stock mechanical fuel pump does it's job, and my wife yells stop stop! I stop turning the key, and she yells that fuel is spraying everywhere. Really? Yeah, I told you I had fuel, you don't think that was the firs thing I checked? I was still pretty upset. Then I looked at the "gas" that I had just sprayed all over my Bronco's carburetor. It was beading. Gas lays flat, it doesn't bead like water. Water beads like water. So my wife saved the day, she was right. I wasn't getting gas, I was getting something, and it smelled like gas, but it wasn't gas. Just to make sure, I put that fuel hose into a rattle can cap, and filled it a bit with the "gas". Then I set that cap with some gas in it on the ground safely away from everything, and I lit a long rolled up piece of paper. When the paper was good and on fire, I lowered it into the gas. The gas put out the fire. That's when I realized that I had just filled that Bronco up like a week ago. I had to dump out all of that bad gas, luckily I've got an aftermarket fuel tank in that Bronco, and it has a drain plug. Unluckily, it was a 23 gallon gas tank, and that's a lot of gas to throw away. It also has a reserve tank that holds 8 gallons that I had to toss out. That was probably 10 or 15 years ago, but I'll never forget it. It's a crazy hobby. Apparently you can fill up with bad gas, and the engine will fire right up, because it's starting off the good gas that's still in your carb. The gas stations gas is in your tank, and not in your carb yet. Then you get down the road, and within a quarter mile or so, you're running off the bad gas, it's mixed in with the gas that was already in your tank, but I only fill up when I'm really really low on gas, and I always fill it all the way up. Anyway, that gas gets you home, and you don't even notice that it's running bad? Crazy! Then you get home, shut it down, and a week later, it won't start. Because firing up is a harder task than just staying lit. So the gas was good enough to keep me going down the road, but not good enough to start a cold engine. If anyone told me that story, I'd call bullshit, but it happened. It's crazy but true. These old cars will always surprise you. So now I only buy gas from places I can trust like BP or Shell, and I've never had another issue like that one.
So the Holley EFI comes with an O2 sensor and the computer also measures the air and fuel. It's supposed to be "self learning" but you still have to do some manual tuning to get it just perfect. That problem you stated sounds like a headache! I would of never been able to solve the bad gas situation! Maybe that's what's wrong with mine... I was finally able to verify that my TDC was right on mark. The engine I'm working on is a 306 crate engine from blue print engines. It didn't want to run out here in Colorado with the carburetor, it kept blowing the power valve so that's why I have the Holley EFI. It starter right up the first time I installed it so I was happy for about 500 miles or so. Then my battery started draining for no reason and I had to keep jump starting it every other day. I changed the alternator, battery and the problem still persisted. Come to find out I had a short somewhere under the dashboard because it caught on fire. Fast-forward to two years later I installed brand new wiring harness from painless wiring, they gave me all the wires from taillights, headlights, engine bay, interior, everything. I even changed the ignition switch and turn signal switch. The car started right away first time for that one day, next day I come back and it doesn't want to start, just cranks and no start. I started to troubleshoot and found the clamp to my distributor was bowed out as if it had been overtightened so I thought maybe the vibration knocked my timing off. That's where I'm at today, i have the timing on 14 initial degrees, I have spark, fuel, air. It just runs while cranking but as soon as I let go of the key and the stater retracts then the engine dies right away. And I get some fire balls every now and then through the EFI
@@owenrobertson I took my valve cover off and made sure that the rotor was pointing towards spark #1 while both valves on cylinder #1 were closed/on compression. I then saw that the timing pointer was right on zero degrees and marked that with a white dot. Then I bolted everything back up and had my cousin crank the engine over while I used the timing gun so that I could advance it 14 degrees with the vaccine advanced plugged off. Then we hooked the fuel back up and tried to start the engine, all we get is a fireball every now and then and some sputtering
When your stop tool is down far enough into the hole, you'll turn the crank counter clockwise, and your piston will hit the stop before it hits TDC. Now your timing pointer is pointing to some random spot on your harmonic balancer, mark this spot on your balancer. Leave your stop exactly where it is. Now turn the crank clockwise (it won't turn counter clockwise because of the stop). The piston will drop back down into the hole, and eventually come back up again.
Like you said, if the exhaust valve is open, that's the exhaust stroke. The next time the TDC mark comes around, I should feel air pressure trying to escape past my finger (something is wrong if I don't), this is because both valves are closed on the compression stroke and the air has no where to escape, the path of least resistance is past my finger. Intake, compression, power, exhaust...four stroke engine, 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation.
Owen Robertson I also did this test to see if the machine shop messed up and put my engine at TDC at the TDC of exaust stroke I turned my crank with a socket and breaker and every time air would escape through the plug home it was lined up with the TDC , so your saying it's not possible to hear the hiss when the Piston is on it's exaust stroke ? I am unable to fire my rebuilt 390 trying to cover all areas also if I know my timing is 8/10 degrees before top dead center is it a good idea to seat it at 8/10 mark before TDC then drop dist in going by what you said earlier ?if that's the case how do you know what position to put it in ? I seen 390 on you tube and some the vacum advance housing was wat to the left by the water neck some pointing straight ahead turning it changes the timing so if I put it in straight or to the left or right wouldn't that change it as well trying to start the motor ?
If it turns out that it's exactly what where the balancer was marked anyway, you're done, you know it's marked correctly. If it's off a bit, put a new mark on the balancer, and from now on use the new mark. If this is the case you'll want to check again in a few months to see if it got worse. Timing chain stretch or a balancer slipping a bit on it's rubber insulator can cause this.
Now it really doesn't matter just how deep you installed your stop, but keep in mind, the closer your two marks are to each other, the easier it will be to figure out their midpoint. To bring the two marks closer to each other, back the piston stop out a bit. If you don't do this, and your piston stops are 180 out from each other, just be sure to find the mid point that's on the side of your factory TDC mark, otherwise your new mark will be true BDC. -Owen
You look down the spark plug hole (plug has been removed), and sure enough you can see that the piston is all the way up. But is it really exactly at TDC or a few degrees off? A piston stop will tell you. Install the piston stop right now, screw it in until it hits the piston, it won't screw in any farther. Mark your threads, where they meet the spark plug hole. Before step 1, disconnect your battery, you don't want any chance of starter engagment.
I know this is old but remove all your spark plugs so you can turn the engine easier with your wrench or socket. I could hear the person huffing and puffing while trying to turn the engine.
@moparmania74: No, using a method like you described will only put you in the ballpark. The next time you have a cyl head removed, move a piston to what appears to be TDC, then keep turning the crank, while keeping an eye on both your balancer and your piston. You'll be amazed by how many degrees of rotation that the piston "appears" to be at exact TDC. Using a piston stop is the only way to find exact TDC.
1 Going back and forward will set 2 points on the harmonic, by dividing the 2 points you get you TDC. Get valve cover out, get a ball park...setting the pointer and the original mark, then look at the lobes in the camshaft as they give you the highest part of the lobe as the exaust stroke and the lowest journal of the camshaft the combustion point or valves closed =TDC . finally depending on the year you could move the coil to ignite a tester light which will point to TDC.
If you set the piston stop shallow, you'll end up with two marks that are relatively close to each other (Pac Man's mouth barely open). If you put your piston stop in deeper, you'll end up with two marks spaced farther apart on your harmonic balancer, mouth wide open so to speak. Narrow mouth is easier to measure, but either way will work. The center of your two marks is TDC, regardless of how far apart they are. If they are 6 inches apart, put a TDC mark at half that, 3 inches...done.
Question: I have pulled my distributor now several times on a AMC 360 ('88 Jeep Grand Wagoneer) it is running horribly and I am now wondering if dizzy went back in and is set up on exhaust stroke -short of pulling a valve cover, how can I verify distributor is set on intake TDC? Thanks!
It's real easy, disconnect the battery, remove the #1 spark plug, and have someone turn the crankshaft clockwise with a ratchet and socket on the crank bolt. While they are turning the engine over by hand, you'll have your finger pressed up against the cylinder head, where the #1 spark plug was. When you first feel air pressure forcing itself through the #1 spark plug hole, and passed your finger, tell your friend to stop turning, because you're coming up on TDC of the #1 compression stroke (you know it's not coming up on TDC of the exhaust stroke, because you won't feel air when it's all going out the open exhaust valve). Next look at your timing mark on your harmonic balancer, and your fixed-location timing pointer that you use to set your timing with a timing light. Slowly turn the crankshaft until the timing marks line up with the fixed timing pointer. Next question is where should your initial timing be set on an '88 Grand Wagoneer? I don't know where you want it, and I don't have books that go that new, but let's say you wanted 12 degrees of initial timing. Using your ratchet, and looking at your timing marks, put it at 12 degrees before TDC. Once you've done that, here's what you've got, your engine isn't running, the battery isn't even connected, but physically your crankshaft is positioned so that the #1 piston is sitting 12 degrees before TDC on your compression stroke. This is where you want your distributor to fire your #1 spark plug. Look at your distributor cap, find where your #1 spark plug wire is, and using a marker, put a mark on your distributor housing that lines up with #1 on your cap. Now when you remove your cap, you can still see where the rotor should be pointing. Remove the cap, and if your rotor is pointing at the mark you made, then you know your timing is pretty close. If the rotor is pointing the opposite direction, then you're right, and you've got the timing set 180 off, set to the exhaust stroke (I doubt that though, I don't think it'll even start if you've done that, and you said it's just running rough). If your rotor is a little bit off, you can adjust the distributor to get it right on the mark you made, then tighten the distributor hold down. While you're at it, look up your firing order, and which direction your distributor turns, and starting with #1, make sure that you've got your firing order correct, if you find two wires are swapped, that's your problem, that would make it run rough for sure. Now connect the battery and set your initial timing with a timing light, because everything you did with the battery disconnected was just to get you in the ball park. If it's still running rough, after you've verified all of the above, then maybe it's what this whole video is about, and the outer ring of your harmonic balancer has walked away from the inner ring, making all of the timing marks on the balancer useless now. This video series shows you how to check if your balancer's outer ring has shifted, by using a piston stop. It's rare for balancers to come apart like that, but it happens. It's happened to me twice, and both times, I ended up with an engine that ran terrible, after setting the timing, because the timing marks on the balancer were lying to me. That's how I do it anyway, with the ratchet on the crankshaft that is. And normally I don't have a friend around to turn the crankshaft for me, so I've got one hand on the spark plug hole and my other hand on the ratchet, turning the crankshaft. Some people like to skip the ratchet idea, and use a remote starter, they remove the coil wire so the engine doesn't try to start and they use one hand to bump the starter motor, and they use their other hand to press a finger up against the #1 spark plug hole. And if you don't have a remote starter, you can still skip the ratchet idea, just have someone bump the key to turn the engine over. I don't like doing it that way, because you've got more control with a ratchet, the starter motor can go too fast for me, but either way will work for you. You can turn the crankshaft around and around, but you'll only feel air blowing out on the compression stroke, you'll know it when you feel it. I typed a lot, but it's really easy, the main thing isn't to memorize what I typed, it's just to understand what you're doing and why it works, it's just common sense.
Oh yeah, and if you do use a ratchet on that crankshaft bolt, be sure to remove that ratchet before you hook up your battery and start the engine. Put the #1 spark plug back in as well. :) Good luck!
Yeah, that makes sense. The white car wasn't off at all, but a buddy of mine in a different state, he was having trouble getting his timing right. No matter where he set it, it ran really bad so I made these videos to show him how to verify that his balancer's timing marks weren't lying to him. He was running the original balancer, so I told him the outer ring isn't attached to the inner ring, it's just two separate chunks of cast iron, with rubber in between, all press fit of course, and shouldn't come apart, but we're driving these old cars longer than anyone including the car builders thought we would.....or should. With the orange car, just once, and years and years ago, the inner piece of the balancer started to get away from the outer piece, slowly at first. So if you spin the inner piece, without spinning the outer piece, that puts your factory timing mark in the wrong spot. The crankshaft is spinning clockwise (forward looking aft), and it's bolted to the balancer, so if the rubber starts to let loose, the inner balancer will outrun the balancer's cast iron outer ring, in a clockwise direction. If you are looking down at the factory timing mark (on your balancer's outer ring), it's now to the left of where it should be. So on that orange car, when I found true TDC, and made my own new mark, it was to the right of where my outer ring told me it should be. The outer ring was lying. Of course, let it keep slipping and eventually you'll need to make a new mark again, and this time it might be on the left, if it's slipped around far enough.....or it could even be 180 degrees off, so not left or right.......so the moral of the story is that if you find your harmonic balancer is slipping on you, replace it right away. If you don't, eventually that outer ring will come completely free, and it'll just freewheel, can't go anywhere, it's got an engine behind it, and a crank pulley in front of it, but it'll make a hell of a racket.
Seems easy enough but you'd be amazed how many distributors I've seen that were dropped in 180 out (based on 360 degrees of camshaft rotation, cam turning at half the speed of the crank). Find TDC of the compression stroke, then move the crank to about 15 degrees BTDC of the compression stroke, then drop your distributor in with the rotor facing where you want #1 to be, set your firing order off of where #1 is, and your engine will fire right up.
jcinnamon01, think of it in terms of crankshaft rotation rather than the piston going up and down. For every 360 degrees of crankshaft rotation, the piston hits TDC once and BDC once. Now there's 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation on a 4 stroke engine, but for the purpose of degreeing a cam or checking the timing marks on your harmonic balancer, that really doesn't matter.
TDC is TDC whether it's TDC compression or TDC exhaust. To get the car running this matters a bunch and I went into that below. The piston stop isn't to determine which is compression and which is the exhaust stroke, it simply tells you where to mark your balancer for true and exact TDC, the piston is exactly at the top of the cylinder. Even with the head off, you can't eyeball it and be exact. Even with the head off you need a piston stop.
If your two marks end up being 8 inches apart, measure 4 inches for your TDC mark. If you go through all this work and it turns out your balancer was marked properly the whole time, that's fine too. At least you can rule that out when troubleshooting a timing issue. Anyway, as you can see by the video, it doesn't take that long, especially if you buy a piston stop on ebay rather than try to make one.
Once the jam nut is tight, no further adjustment will be required, until you use it on a different engine. The jam nut holds the all thread in place, and makes the tool more solid than it would be other wise. The tool would work without the jam nut, but not quite as precisely. I experimented with how much all thread I would need, to make the process as easy as possible. Now every time I install it, and torque the "spark plug" into the cyl head, the stop is in the same place. See below.
If you can get to the number 1 spark plug and the timing pointer, you can do it. Be sure to make a solid stop that won't give, or just buy one on ebay. I should check mine again, to see if that balancers outer ring has walked any more. Really what I should do is buy a new balancer. I've put a lot of miles on that Mustang since making the video, haven't messed with the timing lately, it's been running good.
Owen have you had any over heating of your starter using headers, I just installed a set of Headman headers and the starter is very close to the header, I was thinking of using exhaust wrap, whats your thoughts ? and thanks for the video !
I've only used that header wrap once, on my '70 Mach 1, and that was over 20 years ago. I wrapped both headers, because I read something in a magazine saying it helped performance, thermal something or other. I don't remember the details from that article. I ran those headers for a couple years, and nothing about that wrap really seemed all that worth while to me, so I haven't messed with it since. My Mach 1 has exhaust manifolds on it now, some of my cars still have headers (unwrapped), and no problem with burning up starters, as compared to my cars that don't have headers....from what I can tell, my starter shell out rate is the same regardless of unwrapped headers or stock exhaust manifolds. Plenty of burnt hands, trying to remove a starter while the header was still hot, though. So much easier replacing a starter on a car with exhaust manifolds. That said, if you've got an early Mustang like mine, the air in the engine bay can get really hot, it's cramped in there because of the shock towers taking up so much space, and there's not a lot of air flow through that engine bay, especially when you are stuck in traffic. Anything you can do to reduce engine bay temperature isn't a bad idea, to include header wrap. I cut a hole in my '69 and '70 hoods, just to get the air cleaner out of that hot engine bay, and up above hood level into ambient air temperature, that fixed the vapor lock issues I was having with my '70 Mach 1 in the summer, when I lived in Las Vegas.
Thanks for taking your time to reply, My situation is a 1976 Ford F350 which gives me a large engine bay, I replaced the worn out 390 with a fresh 360 and decided to go with headers and the Headman headers that I purchased run down very close to the starter, good to know that you didn't have any heat issues regarding the starter using headers, I ordered wrap and I will probably install a heat shield over the starter, again thanks for your input !
Nice video ...... You said that the ground from the spark plug ....I am having starting issues on a rebuilt 390 my 69 Ford f 250 cranks but won't start I been searching possible soulutions why it cranks good and has a spark but it will not fire I'm just throwing this out there maybe you came across this the things I changed before my attempt to start it , I installed a thick ground wire from the block to the frame , cleaned the connections from the block to firewall ground One odd thing though I could not get a good ground to lite the test light unless I installed the battery cable ? I thought since the engine is cast iron it would be a good ground especially with that big block to frame wire I installed ? I'm thinking I have spark but not good enough spark . I tested 11 almost 12 volts at the positive coil terminal in start mode in run mode it was at 6 v , although on the negative side I had less that a volt in run and almost 1 v in start mode in one test I had the test light on the S solinoid small wire red and white it lit up in start mode but not in run mode ? Could it be I am having grounding issue since it is what actually causes a spark to the plugs with that ground strap I installed ?? I cranked my motor a little too much trying to get it started hoping I didn't mess up the cam already but I did not go crazy just got frustrated with it not firing .
You mentioned your cam, and seemed concerned that you wiped it out, I'm guessing it's a brand new cam, and you're referring to the cam break in that you need to do, I'm sure it's fine though. You're trying to fire up a brand new engine for the first time? Or just a brand new cam? I don't think you've got a ground issue. It sounds like you've got that covered. You should have a ground cable running from the negative post on your battery to the front of the block (doesn't matter where on the block, but sand off the paint for a good connection), and where your battery's ground cable is bolted to the block, you should have a second cable running from there to the frame (again, bare metal for a good connection). So now your battery is grounded directly to the block, and directly to the frame. Then run a small ground strap from the rear of the intake manifold to the firewall. Do that, and you'll be able to put the ground test light lead on just about any bare metal on the car, and yeah, both positive and negative terminals have to be on the battery, if that was your question. From what you wrote, I think you have all of that covered. Are you still running points in your distributor, or have you installed electronic ignition, if electronic, what exactly are you running? The voltage at your coil sounds right for an original points type distributor, there's a resistor wire that would explain the 6v. With points, the negative side of the coil just goes to your points contact, so check that wire's condition, look for any chaffing or bare wire, and check that wire's connection to the points. Then check your point gap with a feeler gauge (.017" to .019" gap will be fine). If it's way off, that's your problem, and if the points aren't brand new, get some sand paper, somewhere around 80 or 120 grit will work, fold it in half, so it's rough on both sides, and slide it back and forth in your point gap to clean both sides shiny, sometimes your engine won't start, no spark, and that's all it takes to get you back on the road. Once you've verified your point gap and cleaned your points, make sure that all of your spark plug wires are properly installed, fully seated at cap and plugs, and that the firing order is correct by checking it against a diagram that shows cylinder numbering and distributor cap rotation. Remember that the Ford distributor rotor spins counter-clock-wise, opposite of Chevy, and that Ford numbered their cylinders completely differently than Chevy and Mopar, just saying because if you're used to old cars that aren't Ford, this will throw off your game. Once all that is sorted out, put a timing light on the number one spark plug wire, and check your timing while someone cranks the engine for you. Be sure you've got a good charge on the battery, and at normal cranking speed, the timing light will strobe if you've got spark, this will also prove that you've got a solid ground, and that your coil, distributor, and points are working just fine (if no strobe at all, then those are your suspects, and I'd suspect the points before anything else). If the timing light shows 5 to 15 degrees BTDC on your harmonic balancer then it should start, and if it doesn't start, you should check for fuel, just look down your carb, and cycle the throttle lever with your hand, you should see fuel squirting down from the top of the carburetor. What carb are you running? You could cheat and spray a little starting fluid down the carb, and see if that helps it out....it should at least try to light off. Starting fluid will also tell you when it won't start because you've got a batch of bad gas...but gas that bad is really rare, it's only happened once to me. Here's the thing, you've got good rotation, so now as long as you've got compression, and valve timing, and spark timing, and spark, and good gas....it should fire right up. If it doesn't, you're missing at least one of those five things. I'm guessing you've got fuel, probably the first thing you checked. So the next question is spark. Did the timing light strobe while the starter was cranking the engine over? If so you've got spark at number one. As long as you're there, hook up the timing light to the #2 through #8 spark plug wires, and see if the light strobes, now you know that you've got spark at all 8 spark plugs, because if a spark plug is fouled, the timing light won't strobe on that specific spark plug wire. And if the points or coil is bad, or the point gap is wrong, none of the spark plug wires will strobe the timing light. If you have fuel and spark, how about spark timing? When the timing light was hooked up to the #1 spark plug wire, and a friend cranked the starter, did it read between 5 and 15 BTDC? If not, turn the distributor until it does. If no amount of distributor adjustment can get you there, then that's your problem. Put a mark on the opposite side of your harmonic balancer, 180 degrees out from your factory timing marks, and then see if your timing light strobes on that 180-out balancer mark you just made. If so, you've installed your distributor on the #1 piston's TDC alright, but you've installed it on TDC of the exhaust stroke, and not TDC of the compression stroke. If this is the issue, and I've seen it done lots of times, then simply go to your distributor cap and move all of your spark plug wires straight across from where they are now, grab two that are directly opposite each other, swap them....grab the next two, swap them....grab the next two, swap them....grab the last two swap them...and that's all 8, done, easy. If you're worried you messed up, by swapping the same wires twice, then just check your firing order again, it'll be the same firing order, but your #1 spark plug wire has now moved 180 degrees on the cap, so start at your new #1 and work ccw from there. See what that does? If your distributor rotor is exactly 180 out (from being set up on the exhaust stroke), then by moving every spark plug wire 180 degrees from it's current location, you just fixed everything in less than a minute, and your #1 spark plug will now fire on your #1 piston's compression stroke. Or if you don't like my shortcut idea, and you want the number 1 spark plug wire located on the distributor cap where the service manual diagram shows it, then you can do this instead, to accomplish the same goal, just pull the distributor, turn the rotor 180 degrees (if it's pointing at your carb, point it at the radiator), and drop it back in, and then leave all the spark plug wires where you had them. Then check the timing again, while cranking, and if it's now between 5 and 15 degrees, spray a small amount of starting fluid down the carb and it should fire right up. Once running, you can double check your timing with the light, and break in your cam while KEEPING A CLOSE EYE ON YOUR TEMP AND OIL PRESSURE GAUGES. Now if you have fuel, spark, and spark timing, and it still won't light off, then you'll need to consider valve timing, and the possibility that your new cam isn't installed correctly...or compression, and the possibility that the valves are adjusted wrong. I've seen guys not follow directions on where the crank gear and cam gear alignment marks are supposed to be, but that's rare. And I've seen guys crank down on rocker arms trying to adjust a hydraulic lift valvetrain the way you'd adjust a solid lift valvetrain, which prevents the valves from closing all the way, and you end up with zero compression at every cylinder, that's more common, but your 390 has a non-adjustable valvetrain with shaft rockers, so that can't be an issue, not on your engine. Not only that, but I'm willing to bet your new cam is installed properly, I've never seen cam installation instructions that didn't show a detailed diagram of where the timing marks go. You have to be trying pretty hard to mess that up. Hopefully it's just spark timing. Let me know what you figure out. Oh, and for breaking in a new cam, I recommend this: www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-159
Owen Robertson Thanks for the reply I appreciate it it a 69 Ford f 250 rebuilt at a reputable engine shop I installed motor and trans it was long block but I put on the timing cover and the dots were line up center to center straight up it has a comp cam 265 dual energy and there were notes of recommended valve ajustment and it came with springs , already installed with lines on them . I'm running a alum carb spacer with a Holly 500 cfm 2bbl the grounds are as you said except I have a separate one to the block near the starter to the frame I was very concerned I didn't flatten out my cam but just turning over I doubt it I'm using comp cam break in oil and primed the pump , I dropped the dist in on the TDC and the pully was right on the mark TDC, loosening the number 1 I heard the air escaping and actually blowing on my hand just by turning it with a wrench when it was close to the number 1 TDC on the pully so I will try the timing light and see if it lights up on the marks while the engine is cranking and the other steps you mentioned .......thanks again
Owen Robertson It started .......funny thing I went to pep boys last night and bought a voltage regulator it's the newer electronic type I turned the key and it fired right up but it ran rough I attempted to cam break in hell at 2,500 for about 5 min but the smells of burning paint ceramic coated exaust and it was misfiring a little I shut it down untill I get a oil pressure gauge the stock one did not work and I'm not going to chance that only now I have 12v on both sides of the coil with key on ? Is that normal before I changed the regulator I only had 1 v with key on at the negative side and it wasn't at 12 v positive it was under like 11 or so now I have 12 on both the tach is working
I am running points I had the pertronix in it at first but since it did not fire I put the points back in there gapped to 18 since I did not have a 17 I hear the matchbook thing but never new if that was the 2 sides folded over of course without the matches or just one side ? I reggaped the plugs to 34 I had them at 45 with the pertronix but since it did not fire and put points I put back to 34/35 it's the original autolite dist alot of stuff was original before the trans rebuild the filter said fomoco in trans maybe last change was 75 . That was the concern about the 12v on the negative side coil ? One guy said that you would only have 12v at the negative side if the circuit was not complete ? But all I did was change the regulator ...sorry to high jack your TDC thread thanks for responding many did not ....and also they had 2 amp fuses to the regulator and alternator I looked at the diagram it showed 4 amp there so I changed those don't know if that made a difference .
You're not high jacking anything, I'm always happy to talk engines. I was a jet engine mechanic for 15 years, and an automotive machinist for a couple years before that. I'm only an amateur at what we're discussing, but I've got a bunch of classic cars, and over 30 years of constantly wrenching on them. That said, I'm no expert, but everything you're doing is right. Good job ensuring TDC of compression stroke rather than TDC of exhaust stroke, yup, that's how you do that. Break in lube, you primed the oil pump, good stuff, your cam is fine. Don't worry about not finishing the cam break in, you were right to shut it off. Install the oil pressure gauge and set the timing with a light, because that engine running the way you described it, it's probably not set at 10 degrees BTDC right now, it's probably set somewhere around 15 degrees ATDC. You probably need to turn the distributor clockwise to advance the timing, that should smooth it out. Don't do it by ear, though, put a timing light on it, and get it right. Once you've got good timing and good water and oil gauges, go ahead and finish your cam break in. I've flattened two cams, but they were both high lift solid grinds, and it was before word got out on the need for break-in zinc oil additives. Your cam will be fine, don't even worry about it. Good choice on the cam and carb, it'll run great. Everyone will tell you that you need a four barrel on that 390, but that's just old school "know how" kicking in. Back in 1985 I absolutely knew that I needed a Holley 750 double pumper on the 289 in my '65 Mustang....did i really? No, but I sure as hell put one on there. We were just dumb kids, thinking the more cfm the better. I have cars with points, a car with Pertronix II, and I've got cars with HEI. Points are fine, and good thinking dialing the spark plug gap back down on your 390. I guess the matchbook thing was cool back when everyone had points, and most everyone had a easy access to a matchbook somewhere. Personally, I just keep a feeler gauge in each of my car's ash trays for setting point gap. You did that right as well, .018" will be fine for your point gap. As for the readings at your coil, all that really matters is the positive side of your coil, don't worry about the negative side. The negative side of your coil is going to read one thing if your points are closed, and something completely different if your points are open. So you shut the engine off, and the question is, where's the point gap at, is it open or closed? Remove the distributor cap and turn the engine by hand until the points are wide open, and you should have zero volts at the negative side of the coil. I think that's how it works, when the gap is closed, the circuit is completed to ground. I have learned one thing, if your points are open, you can leave your key on, and nothing bad will happen to your points, but if your points are closed, and you leave your key in the run position over night, the points will burn, and you'll have to clean them up with sandpaper. I figured this out after leaving my coil energized over night in my '68 GTO. I have a toggle switch to energize the positive side of the coil, and I needed to do some welding in the trunk, so I ran the GTO out of gas, and since the engine starved itself of fuel and died on it's own, I forgot to turn off the batman switch for the coil...fried the points, but no damage to the coil or anything else. That was dumb, and I should have disco'd the battery before I started welding, anyway. I knew better than that, but sometimes I don't think. Your 390 fired up though, so your points and coil are working just fine. It's running rough, but that's probably timing, because very few people are lucky enough to drop a distributor in, and hit the timing perfectly. Now if you set your timing to 10 degrees BTDC, or wherever you plan to put it, and it still runs rough, then yeah, maybe look at your points or coil as the cause, but right now, I'd focus on timing. One thing though, and you can check this after your cam break-in, no rush, but if the car is running, and you've still got a straight 12v at the positive side of your coil, it might be because your truck's original resistor wire for the positive side of the coil was fried at some point, and someone bypassed it years ago. No resistor wire is a bad thing, the engine will run fine for about 200 miles, and then your points will start to burn up and it'll start running really rough. Here's the easy fix, if you think your original resistor wire might be long gone from your wire harness (and a lot of them are), just go to Pep Boys, and ask for a ballast resistor for a '69 Dodge Dart (or any Mopar that's old enough to have points). Mopar ran a ballast resistor instead of a resistor wire, and it's a cheap part that's really easy to install. All of my cars with points, that originally had resistor wires, are now running '69 Dodge Dart ballast resistors, because12v at the positive side of the coil (while the engine is running) is fine for Pertronix, but not fine for points, so you need either the original resistor wire, or you need an external ballast resistor. Now what about your coil? Are you running a points coil (stock for that truck), or is it a coil specifically built for the Pertronix? You need a points coil, and not something that Pertronix sold you to go with their kit. Here's a good video explaining how a points engine gets 12v at the positive side of the coil during engine cranking, and then only 9v at the positive side of the coil (thanks to a ballast resistor) once the engine is running. He should have mentioned that a lot of Fords, and my '68 GTO, and a bunch of other cars, and probably your truck, came stock with a resistor wire instead of an externally mounted ballast resistor, but that's okay. Another thing I noticed is that in his diagram, his wire from "I" on the starter solenoid normally goes to "+" on the coil, and not to the coil side of the ballast resistor the way he drew it, but it doesn't matter, either way it's doing the same job, and he does make mention of this at four minutes and seven seconds into his video: th-cam.com/video/PCs5gAZBbxU/w-d-xo.html
If that thing forces the piston to stop, then there is no way you can be sure that you got to the very top of the compression stroke. The only sure way is to measure the gas (air) coming out of the spark plug hole on the compression stroke.
Drop that same distributor in at TDC of the exhaust stroke and it won't run so good. If your valve covers are off, you can just watch the valves, otherwise, use your finger in the spark plug hole.
the TDC is stamped in metal at he factory where thhe make the crankshafts its not going to change - remove spark plugs so you rotate eng to line up tdc on the arrow stop remove top of dist look at the rotter minis pointing at #6 wire which is at 1 oclock pos looking down at dist connect timming light to # 6 wire spin eng with starter see where light is in relation to tdc i want it on 4 deg before tdc loosn bolt to allow dist to move slowly rotate dist.till it lights 4 deg line before tdc spin starter vertfy 4 degs tighten dist install spark plugs put top back on dist start eng verfy #4 flashing shes timed , easy
It would be easy if that was true about the stamped TDC not changing. For timing purposes, the TDC mark is stamped on the outer ring of your harmonic balancer. The outer ring on a factory harmonic balancer isn't permanently married to the inner ring. If it was, then no problem, because the inner ring of that balancer is keyed to your crankshaft and it can't move. You've got the inner ring of the balancer, then a rubber cushion, and then your outer ring, and it's all just an interference fit.....and rubber deteriorates over the decades. All I've owned my whole life is old cars, the oldest being a 1955 Pontiac, and the newest is a 1975 Bronco. I've never owned a car newer than 1975, and I've learned that decades old harmonic balancers don't always stay together, married by that vibration absorbing layer of rubber. The outer ring can walk away a little bit. Keep driving it and eventually it'll keep walking until it completely removes itself from the inner ring, and then it's just free-wheeling in there, between your timing chain cover and your crank pulley, and it's not attached to anything. Once that happens, you'll hear it. It can't go anywhere, it's trapped, but it'll be loud. I made this video for a friend who couldn't get his engine to run right, even though he had his timing set at 10 BTDC. And it ran fine the last time he timed it at 10. Thing is, it's no longer 10 BTDC, if your outer ring has taken a 30 degree stroll from where it's supposed to be. Simply timing it off of #6 like you said (180 degrees from #1, in your firing order) won't help at all, if your outer ring has walked, unless your outer ring has somehow managed to walk exactly 180 degrees. There are other reasons for wanting to find true TDC, the most common being if your factory timing pointer, that's normally bolted to the timing chain cover is completely missing, and you have to fabricate one. Sure if it's an old Ford, you can probably just buy that timing pointer, but there are lots of old cars that don't have the same level of parts availability. This video is for people that want to find true #1 TDC by using a piston stop. Most people will never need to do that, but some will, I've had to.
Would u make it the same length as the stock spark plug that came out from end to end?? It seems to me the stop tool would half to be slightly longer then the stock plug to actually (stop) the piston.. What am I missing here??
That's the easy part. Just pull the number one spark plug, and block the spark plug hole with your finger tip or thumb. Then turn the crankshaft with a 1/2" drive ratchet setup on the harmonic balancer bolt. As the piston comes up on compression stroke, the compressed air has no where to escape, so it blows out by your finger, you'll feel it. When the air blows out, just keep an eye on the balancer, the timing mark will be coming up soon and you'll be at TDC of compression stroke on number one. You could remove the coil wire, and turn the engine over with with the starter, with your finger blocking the spark plug hole, but the crank spins kind of fast like that, and it's easy to run it too far, and miss the timing mark. More control with a ratchet setup, but that's just my preference, either way will work. Just make sure you know where number one is, different car makers number their cylinders differently, which is annoying. If you don't have a repair manual for your car, you should buy one. And of course for this trick to work, your valvetrain needs to be fully installed, and rocker arms adjusted (up/down on the pushrod, while adjusting rockers on hyd lifters, never twist the pushrod between your thumb and fingers, very good mechanics will tell you to twist, terrible idea....too easy to accidentally end up with negative lash, up/down to find zero lash, up/down will never lie to you, once you have zero lash established, another half turn on the rocker arm nut will put you in the right spot). And you know it's not the exhaust stroke by putting your finger on the spark plug hole, because on the exhaust stroke, the exhaust valve is open as the piston comes up, so the air doesn't need to blow by your finger, it just goes out the exhaust port.
@@owenrobertson Owen,u r the best. If u don't mind,I may give u my watsapp number for a more private conversation. U might possibly have to train me further. I own a repair shop in Kampala but need training from time to time as technology changes.
@@wodeyaeric5351 You own a repair shop in Kampala, Uganda? I'm guessing I'll be very little help. I'm not a pro, I'm just a guy that likes turning wrenches on old cars as a hobby. Still, I'm happy to make a new friend, so I shot you an email.
@@owenrobertson That part of Kampala is the city square with Mapera house imposing opposite it. Uganda speaks English for a national language with scattered users of Kiswahili. Kiswahili is mostly used in neighbouring Kenya and Tanzania--infact in Kenya's parliament it is used together with English.
Step 1: Turn your crank clockwise a bit, to bring the piston back down into the hole. Now turn your piston stop in just a bit, maybe an 1/8" of an inch or so. Now turn your crank counter clockwise, until your piston hits your stop, you'll know when this happens, because you won't be able to turn the crank any farther. Of course if the crank spins counter clockwise, past TDC, the stop wasn't in far enouth, so go back to step 1.
it so much easyer to turn eng by fan if you remove spark plugs to put on TDC i dont know where this #1 piston info comes i have factory manual it plainly states use #6 pos. to set timming yet people with this same eng will argue its #1 i realize when you set one you set them all as matter of fact you can use spark plug hole for tdc it over the valves not the piston?????? one other thing my dist shaft will not go 180 it has offset tang to prevent this
To understand how the piston stop works, and why it doesn't matter how long it is, think of Pac Man with his mouth open. You've got 360 degrees of Pac Man, but only 1 of those degrees is the exact center of his mouth. To find it you'd simply measure from the upper "lip" to the lower "lip". The center of that measurment is the exact center of the mouth. If his mouth was opened wider, wouldn't matter, the center of the mouth is still found the same way.
Explain? If you use a piston stop, and it stops the piston just before TDC while turning the crank cw, and you mark the balancer, and then you turn the crank ccw and again it stops the piston just before TDC, and you mark the balancer, the exact center of those two marks is TDC. It's not ballpark, it's TDC. I'm not making this up, it's how you find TDC when using a camshaft degree wheel. If there's a better way to find TDC, please let me know. Thanks.
Sure, when you use your piston stop, only install it enough to contact the piston, and stop movement of the piston. If it's screwed in enough to do that, you're good, no point screwing it in farther, in fact that would just make things harder for you. The more shallow your stop is, the closer your two marks will be, this makes finding the center of those two marks a lot easier. Too shallow, of course, and the piston won't hit it at all. It's all pretty easy, just don't start the engine! -O
Using a piston stop, you end up with to marks on your harmonic balancer, think of these marks as Pac Man's upper and lower lips, the center of those two marks is the "center of Pac Man's mouth". In this case thinking of 360 degrees of crankshaft rotation, the center of your two marks on your balancer is TDC, measure the center of those two points going in the other direction, and you'll find a spot exactly 180 out from TDC, this is BDC.
Now you try to start the car, to set the timing with a light, but there's no power. You remember that your battery is disco'd, and that reminds you to remove the piston stop and reinstall the spark plug before starting the engine.
I see. Also, why not just use a long extension down the plug hole, if you put millimeter dots on the ext, and have a friend read off while you slowly turn the crank? Also I think BMWs have chains even still. I just changed the belt on my honda civic. god damn what a pain in the a. Shouldve had an engine lift.
Once you mark TDC on your balancer, figuring out which is TDC of compression, and which rotation brings you to TDC of the exhaust stroke is easy. See my other comments on that below.
Your video was instrumental to me getting TDC finally figured out for a 350 that has an incorrect balancer and timing tab. Thanks for making it so easy!
Hello Owen! I have never experienced a person that is so unselfish with their time and dedication of helping his fellow car fanatic. I had so many questions in my mind about this process, (like), does piston have to be on compression stroke, and how does the stop know where the piston should be) etc etc etc. I read all your comments. I NOW get it. I had my 460 bbf dialed in before but did some engine work so want to check it again before I fire it up. Thanks A million Owen. You are appreciated sir. Blessings and cheers from Motown/Dearborn.
Thanks that's nice of you. Yeah, I just like talking about old cars. I've never owned anything newer than 1975, and I wish there were still lots of old cars on the road on any given day, not just car show Saturdays and Sundays. I'm pretty happy to share what little I know, if it means another classic will get out of hiding, and people can see it again. I like all makes, mostly 50s and 60s cars and trucks. Fun to drive, easy to work on, and from what I can tell, you can drive these old cars forever. I've got a '55 Pontiac that still has it's original engine, transmission and rear end. A buddy of mine has a 1920 Model T, that he's planning on driving coast to coast for charity:
th-cam.com/video/qogkMsPo-2U/w-d-xo.html
It's a good hobby. Cool that you're in Dearborn. I like your '67 Mustang, very nice!
@@owenrobertson Thanks Owen, It is a 67 S-code originally a 390 4 speed. Most of it's life has been a race car. Ran in the 8's but now a retired car put back to period correct for the most part. Just have a mild built 460, C-6 manual valve body, 9 in nodular with 4:11 gears. She is still pretty fast for a street car. So I went to fire up the car after engine work and it backfired big time. So I must have got the timing off. I did mark it though, all wiring is right. I think I should have erased the old distributor mark off and not had two, lol Will do the Piston stop tomorrow and get it right, lol. Take care. Blessings from The home of Ford Motor co.
@@robertclymer6948, nice! '67 and '68 are such good looking cars. There was a red '67 convertible in that movie "Innerspace", I always loved that car, had some Shelby stuff on it, and fender flares. The flares were a bit much, and the side view mirrors were terrible, but overall, it was a really good looking car: th-cam.com/video/SpanZh0xSo0/w-d-xo.html
Awesome video thank you so much, we are having trouble that has baffled us we know it's a timing issue but we are not sure why, are last place to look is the balancer and that's what discussed yesterday that perhaps the balancer was not correct.
love your video. great to see a young guy learning old school timing. sorry to say im very hard of hearing, at 59 years old.
but your video was clear and audio was very good. i think you said you are 21 years old . so cool. great video, i also use a vacume guage to set up final timing and fine tuning. thanks again you are right on the money with finding tdc..............phil
My question is how to set the true depth of the piston stop??
So,how does one know when it is dead top center compression stroke & not exhaust? This became a plateau in my motor vehicle repair journey. I am glad I got this video--it has shed off some of the issues nobody wanted to tell me.
That's the easy part. Just pull the number one spark plug, and block the spark plug hole with your finger tip or thumb. Then turn the crankshaft with a 1/2" drive ratchet setup on the harmonic balancer bolt. As the piston comes up on compression stroke, the compressed air has no where to escape, so it blows out by your finger, you'll feel it. When the air blows out, just keep an eye on the balancer, the timing mark will be coming up soon and you'll be at TDC of compression stroke on number one. You could remove the coil wire, and turn the engine over with with the starter, with your finger blocking the spark plug hole, but the crank spins kind of fast like that, and it's easy to run it too far, and miss the timing mark. More control with a ratchet setup, but that's just my preference, either way will work. Just make sure you know where number one is, different car makers number their cylinders differently, which is annoying. If you don't have a repair manual for your car, you should buy one. And of course for this trick to work, your valvetrain needs to be fully installed, and rocker arms adjusted (up/down on the pushrod, while adjusting rockers on hyd lifters, never twist the pushrod between your thumb and fingers, very good mechanics will tell you to twist, terrible idea....too easy to accidentally end up with negative lash, up/down to find zero lash, up/down will never lie to you, once you have zero lash established, another half turn on the rocker arm nut will put you in the right spot). And you know it's not the exhaust stroke by putting your finger on the spark plug hole, because on the exhaust stroke, the exhaust valve is open as the piston comes up, so the air doesn't need to blow by your finger, it just goes out the exhaust port.
Yup, you've got it, make your piston stop tool a bit longer than the spark plug, and it'll hit the piston. It only has to be long enough to just hit the piston, it doesn't have to be an exact depth, but the farther in the hole it goes, the sooner it'll hit that piston. Turn the crankshaft by hand, with a socket set up, don't use the starter to turn the engine over, or you'll damage your piston.
Yup, you could stick something down the spark plug hole and when it goes up as high as it can go, you could call that TDC, and compare it to your timing mark on the balancer. That's only ball park though, you could easily be off by 4 or 5 degrees. Piston stops are made for people that want balls on accurate. If you want to find exact TDC, this is how you do it. The next time you've got a cyl head off, bring a piston to TDC, then keep turning the crank, it'll appear to be at TDC for a while.
on TDC of compression stroke shouldn't both int/exh valves b closed? and on TDC of exhaust the int valve is closed and exh valve open? would this help to tell u which TDC the engine is on.
Yup, and that's how I do it. I'll remove a spark plug, then jam my thumb or index finger in the spark plug hole. Then I'll turn the crank in the normal direction of engine rotation with a 1/2" drive rachet setup on the crank bolt. I'll keep an eye on the timing pointer and wait for the TDC line to come around. If it comes and goes, and air didn't try to blow passed my finger in the spark plug hole, I know that it's because the exhaust valve was open, and that's where the air went.
Think of it this way, you've got a running engine, all the spark plugs are installed, you turn the crank by hand, all the pistons come relatively close to the spark plugs, but none of them hit any spark plugs. Now you remove the #1 spark plug, and turn your crank by hand until your TDC timing mark on your harmonic balancer lines up with your timing pointer. According to your timing marks, the #1 piston is at true Top Dead Center (all the way up).
Great Video. Very nice cars, and a good tip. One question I have when you said experiment before you tighten the jam nut:What should I be looking for before? Im sure youll say watch for movement in the all thread but I'm still thinking the threads may snagg and give a false reading. Still a useful tip, I'm just overthinking it i guess. Thanks
As it comes back up, eventually it will hit your stop. When it does, once again your timing pointer will be pointing to a random spot on your harmonic balancer. Mark this spot on your balancer. Now all you have to do is measure the distance between the two random spots you marked on your balancer. Find the exact spot that's just in the middle of these two marks, and that's your absolute true TDC.
Before I tightened the jam nut, I installed the piston stop with very little all thread sticking into the combustion chamber. I verified that the piston wasn't hitting it, then I threaded it in, so that the piston would get very close to TDC, before finally hitting the stop. That's where you want it. This way, your two marks end up very close to each other on the balancer. The deeper the stop, the wider spaced your marks will end up. Just easier with the marks close together.
Your answer here addresses my only remaining question spot on. Thanks for articulating clearly. Great video, O.R.! Maybe my 455 olds will run as it should again once I do this. Beautiful cars, BTW!
@owenrobertson I was about to ask this very thing! You are on top of it!! Thanks
Great closeup of radiater hose and valve cover ...wish there was a video pf what he was actualy doin
Mr Robertson, here I am once again. You helped me a while back with my 1970 mustang not wanting to start and we found out it was the electrical wiring.
I have a new problem now on a different mustang. It's a 1999 V6 3.8 with 103,000 original miles. My girl was driving it and she drove over a large rock, the rock ruptured the oil pan and she kept driving dry for about 3 minutes before turning the engine off. I removed the oil pan but did not see any metal shavings. I did however notice small drops of coolant. When I turned the engine by hand, piston number 5 pulls a small amount of antifreeze from the top which leads me to believe that the head gaskets are shot, also the top radiator hose is sucked flat like a flat straw. Would you recommend that I get a remanufactured engine or rebuild this engine with mild work like ported heads, ported intake and a more aggressive camshaft? I'll also be installing new rings and bearings. I can get a remanufactured engine for about 2,500. There is always the option of throwing in a 4.6 but I already have the 302 Windsor on the 1970.
I appreciate your time and I hope to hear back from you soon!
You can go either way with it, but it's a shame this happened at only 103,000 miles. My wife's 2003 Ford Escape has 370,000 miles on it, and the original V6 is still going strong. We even tow with it: th-cam.com/video/2AIx0NuB3y4/w-d-xo.html
Like you said, if you rebuild what you've got, you've got the luxury of being able to get that port work done, etc. That's the direction I've always gone in the past, rebuild what I've got. These days, it's all about crate engines, but back when I was young, I don't know anyone that was doing that. Back then, you simply rebuilt the engine you had, and you did exactly what you're talking about, port work, performance cam, higher compression forged pistons, fun stuff like that. I'm not into any of that hot rodding stuff these days, and there's no way I could afford the premium gas, if I built another 11 : 1 compression engine:
th-cam.com/video/BMGtqMHeJj8/w-d-xo.html
...but it was fun when I was young. I've never bought a crate engine, but I might be biased, since I used to work at an automotive machine shop. Oh and if you do rebuild that engine, make sure they check those heads for cracks....probably just a head gasket though, like you said.
@@owenrobertson that's impressive work from your wife's V6! Do you still have that 1970 fastback? What kind of power were you making on that 11:1 engine?
You're right about crate engines, I've always wanted to build a hot rod engine and now I have the opportunity to do so. Im going to pull the engine out this weekend and tear it down, I'll inspect all the parts and see what needs to be replaced then order the rebuild kit accordingly
@@0rvelazqu, my '70 Mach 1 came stock with an 11 : 1, 4V 351C, M code car, I bought it in 1989 for 550 bucks. I had a C code '65 Mustang coupe at the time, and I wanted to drag race the '70. I didn't go nuts though, just the basic stuff, port and polished heads, TRW forged flat tops, had the chambers cc'd and the heads shaved a bit for a true 11 : 1. The early 4V Cleveland was advertised at 11 : 1 compression, but it was actually around 10.7 : 1, if you cc'd the heads and did the math. I ran a solid Crower cam, roller rockers, 2.19" intake and 1.71" stainless valves, and a 750 double pumper on a single plane Weiand X-Celerator intake. It would rev to 7k, but it only made around 300hp at the rear wheels, and it never ran quicker than 12.9 in the quarter mile:
th-cam.com/video/yr-sWL1fqmI/w-d-xo.html
It had a B&M prepped forward pattern manual valve body C6 transmission behind the Cleveland, and 4.11 Detroit Locker in the 9" rear. Mostly I used it as a daily driver, so it was fine. It was my transportation to and from work, and I actually drove it from Vegas, where I was stationed at the time, to Sacramento, just to race it on a cool night at sea level. It ran high 13s in Utah, (4,200 feet elevation), it ran 13.3 in Vegas, (2,000 feet elevation), and it ran 12.9 in Sacramento (30 feet above sea level).
It was a good car, and I put a lot of miles on it, but I enjoyed spinning it to 7,000 rpm too much, and the Cleveland's bottom end is not built well for that. I was running the Hank the Crank Cleveland oil mod and restrictors to the solid lifters, and a good oil pump, but that wasn't enough. The Cleveland doesn't have a third oil galley to feed the crank directly, like Ford's Windsor engines and SBC / BBC. You'd think Ford would know better than build a high compression, big port, big valve engine like the Cleveland, with only the two oil galleys that run through the lifter bores. You'd think they would have learned that lesson in 1965 when they had to build the 427 side-oiler, because the 427 center-oilers were starving their cranks at high rpm. Over the years, I spun more than a few rod bearings in my Cleveland, because they weren't getting enough enough oil at high rpm. Every time I spun a rod bearing, I'd have to buy a new crank, and a couple new connecting rods, and I'd be right back at it again, with a new oil pump as well, experimenting with both high volume and high pressure oil pumps. Mostly it held together just fine, and when it did spin a rod bearing, I wasn't too upset by it, replacement parts were a lot cheaper in the 90s, and I didn't mind the work, but I decided that I needed a new plan.
I found a '69 Mustang Sportsroof, it was a 30 year old car at the time and it needed full restoration, but it ran. I paid $2k for it. I pulled the 302 and C4, and built a 10 : 1 460 for it, and this time I wanted low rpm torque instead of high rpm horsepower, and my new car wasn't going to rev anywhere near 7k. It got a fairly mild Crower solid cam, and the '70 Mach 1 got a new hydraulic cam, because I wasn't planning on revving that Cleveland to 7k ever again. That engine build video I sent you last time, that was the hydraulic cam Cleveland build. Anyway, I bored the 460 out to 472 cubic inches, polished the exhaust ports only, installed oversized stainless valves, high rise dual plane intake, and I re-jetted that same Holley 750 double pumper for the 460. I put headers on it, and ran a C6 with a shift kit and mild stall converter, and 3.50 Detroit Locker in the rear. It ran low 12s in the quarter with me driving it, and a very high 11, with my friend driving, it, because he's a about 50 or 60 pounds lighter than me.
th-cam.com/video/SetbuZvM6IE/w-d-xo.html
The track video and the dyno sheet are at the end of the video.
It was a good car, but again, I was also using it as a driver to get around town, and even used it to get the kids to school. The good thing, was that it redlined at 5,200 rpm, so I never had an issue with oiling to the bottom end, and that engine stayed together. The hydraulic cam Cleveland stayed together as well, because you get valve float with a hyd cam way before you get 7,000 rpm.
My tastes changed, and money got tight, and the Mach 1 needed premium gas. The 460, with it's 10 : 1 compression ran fine on cheap gas, but it only got 6 mpg......so really both cars had to go.
I had sold my '65 Mustang coupe way back in 2006, after driving it for 21 years, and I bought a '63 TBird. I sold my '70 Mach I in 2018 and bought a '55 Pontiac. I sold my '69 Mustang Sportsroof in 2022 and bought a '68 Coronet R/T. The '55 Pontiac has it's original 287 V8, and it's pretty good on gas. The Coronet R/T is a 440 car, and I need to build that engine, so I'll be building it to run on cheap gas, but it'll still be expensive to drive. I sure do miss 2 dollar gas.
So I went from four old Mustangs to just one. I've still got my A code, four-speed, '65 Mustang fastback, and that one was always my favorite. It's got a Comp Cams hydraulic roller cam in it, with roller rockers, and forged flat tops, and a Performer RPM intake and a 600 Edelbrock carb, and headers, but it's pretty mild really, mostly it's just really fun to drive. I haven't driven it in years, but I'm working on it now, and hope to have it back on the road soon. It was black when I bought it, but it's originally a Wimbledon White car, so I might go back to white with it. It runs and drives great, and the interior is really nice, it just needs some body work and paint.
You've got a good plan on your V6 engine build, let me know how it goes.
Mr. Robertson how are you doing, life got busy with the family and trying to keep up with work. It's been 6 months since I pulled the V6 engine and I just finished rebuilding it. I decided to do a basic stock rebuild as this will be my daily driver. I have too many broken down ford's lol. I haven't been able to start it yet due to me crushing my hand with the engine and the radiator support. I don't think I broke anything but it's definitely going to be sore in the morning. I appreciate all of your useful information.
Your video was very informative, I'm currently having a hard time with my 1970, 302 mustang. It sometimes starts up and sometimes it won't. I have fuel, spark and air. When I used a TDC plunger and took my distributor cap off I noticed that the rotor was pointing about an inch to the left of the number one spark plug. I also noticed that the distributor clamp was bent upwards which didn't give enough clamping force. Headed to O'Reilly's right now to get a new clamp
Yup, get it clamped down, so it doesn't walk away on you. If it's not clamped down, it'll definitely move, and it won't take long until it moves far enough that it won't fire up the next time you try. When you're cranking it, and it won't start, you can hook up your timing light. The engine doesn't have to be running for the timing light to strobe, just the starter turning it over, will be enough to strobe it, as long as your coil is energized and you've got spark going to the plugs. Everyone knows that you can remove a spark plug wire, jam a screwdriver in it, and put the screwdriver next to a ground to check for spark, most people don't seem to know that you can do the same test for spark, by leaving the spark plug wire on the spark plug, and simply hooking your timing light to it. Hook it up to #1, then have someone turn the key to crank the engine, or use a remote starter button. Either way, now you can point the timing light at your harmonic balancer and get a pretty good idea of where your initial spark timing is set at. Turn your distributor as required, until it fires up, then set your initial timing where you want it, with the vacuum advance disconnected. You can also hook your timing light to all the other spark plug wires, and make sure that it strobes on all of them, it's a quick way to check for any fouled spark plugs. Good luck! Let me know what you figure out. Hopefully it's just the clamp, like you said.
@@owenrobertson thank you I appreciate your feedback. I'm still learning, we need more people like you that are willing to help! When I took off my #1 spark plug it had a bunch of black soot and fuel as well. Do you know what would cause for the plugs to become fouled? Would this also make the engine not start? The plugs have maybe 500 miles on them and I don't believe the engine was running rich. It has one of those Holley sniper EFI kits. I'm going to try the starter method like you described and clean all my plugs as well.
@@0rvelazqu, well I've never run that Holley EFI, does it detect air / fuel at all? Do you run an O2 sensor with it? Is that how it works? I've never looked into them at all. I've experimented with a modern O2 sensor before, with carbureted vehicles, and an air/fuel gauge, just to dial in my jetting, but I've never messed with fuel injection on an old car. There are lots of places online that talk about reading your spark plugs, and what you described, as you know, is a spark plug showing signs of your 302 running rich. You might want to call Holley's tech line about that. A 302 doesn't need a lot of fuel, and your EFI might be factory set up for SBC, as pretty much everything is set up for SBC, always has been.....at least for the 37 years that I've been in this hobby. I'm really lazy about changing plugs, the spark plugs in my Vette have about 10,000 miles on them, so yeah, you shouldn't be fouling out after 500 miles. I'm juggling too many cars, so the routine maintenance tends to get overlooked, and I mostly just fix stuff when it breaks. My wife's 2003 Ford Escape has over 90,000 miles on the spark plugs that I installed 6 years ago, when I made some youtube videos about a bad fuel injector in that car. Of course spark plugs will last longer in a car with computer controlled direct port fuel injection than they will in a carbureted car like everything I've ever owned. You've got the right idea though. Clean all of your spark plugs, get it fired up, put your timing light on it, then once your timing is dialed in, and locked down, just keep an eye on those spark plugs. If they keep reading rich, I'd call Holley and ask them about it. Lots of guys run that Holley EFI, so it must be good, and there must be a way to dial it in. Also, you could look for a youtube video on that Holley EFI setup, one that has a lot of views, then after watching the video, go down and read the comments. You can learn a lot from the comments section, maybe there are other people running the same EFI, that are also fouling spark plugs. And yeah, an engine can run with fouled spark plugs, but initial start up is trickier for an engine than continuous running, so theoretically, you could start an engine with half decent spark plugs, then drive 200 miles, running rich, and the engine probably won't die on you going down the road, or even at a stop light, it might run a bit rough, but it'll probably stay running. Then you shut the engine down, and it won't start back up, because initial fire up is harder than simply maintaining a running state. Now run out of gas while you're going down the road, and your engine will sputter for 10 seconds or so and then die. Foul your points, and at a certain point, when your points get bad enough, your engine could absolutely die while you're going down the road, just die, no sputter, just off, like you turned your key off, but in my experience you normally find badly fouled spark plugs when the engine won't start, it doesn't leave you stranded on the side of the road from what I've seen, but it might leave you stranded at a gas station or a restaurant's parking lot or something, when it won't fire back up. So yeah, if they are fouled bad enough, fouled plugs can prevent your engine from starting.
Here's a tricky one. What happens when you fill up at a gas station that has bad gas in their tank? I found out the hard way. Had a 302 in my '75 Bronco, and the original 2 barrel carb. I filled up with gas, drove home from work, then I didn't drive it again for a week or so. A week later, I got in, and it wouldn't start. Like you, I had rotation, fuel, air, spark, spark timing, and valve timing. It should have started. Well it was a week since I had filled that tank, so I didn't even consider bad gas, I had forgotten all about that. Anyway, I'm 10 miles from town, so even if I did suspect bad gas, would it make sense that I filled up with bad gas, and then drove home 10 miles, and it ran fine? At least I think it ran fine, I can't really remember, and I wasn't thinking about any of this in the moment, I was just trying to understand how a '75 Bronco with good spark plugs and good spark, and gas and rotation, wasn't starting. My wife kept telling me that maybe it wasn't getting gas. Well I had looked down the carb, cycled the throttle, and I had watched gas being squirted into the engine. I knew it was getting gas. The third time my wife told me, that maybe it wasn't getting any gas, I was pretty upset, but I kept my calm, and simply pulled the fuel hose off of the carburetor, then I calmly told my wife to watch the engine while I tried to start it. She has no idea what the fuel hose is, or the vacuum advance hose, or the heater hose for that matter, so she didn't know what was going to happen. So I turn the key, and the starter does it's job, and the stock mechanical fuel pump does it's job, and my wife yells stop stop! I stop turning the key, and she yells that fuel is spraying everywhere.
Really? Yeah, I told you I had fuel, you don't think that was the firs thing I checked?
I was still pretty upset. Then I looked at the "gas" that I had just sprayed all over my Bronco's carburetor. It was beading. Gas lays flat, it doesn't bead like water. Water beads like water. So my wife saved the day, she was right. I wasn't getting gas, I was getting something, and it smelled like gas, but it wasn't gas. Just to make sure, I put that fuel hose into a rattle can cap, and filled it a bit with the "gas". Then I set that cap with some gas in it on the ground safely away from everything, and I lit a long rolled up piece of paper. When the paper was good and on fire, I lowered it into the gas. The gas put out the fire. That's when I realized that I had just filled that Bronco up like a week ago. I had to dump out all of that bad gas, luckily I've got an aftermarket fuel tank in that Bronco, and it has a drain plug. Unluckily, it was a 23 gallon gas tank, and that's a lot of gas to throw away. It also has a reserve tank that holds 8 gallons that I had to toss out. That was probably 10 or 15 years ago, but I'll never forget it. It's a crazy hobby. Apparently you can fill up with bad gas, and the engine will fire right up, because it's starting off the good gas that's still in your carb. The gas stations gas is in your tank, and not in your carb yet. Then you get down the road, and within a quarter mile or so, you're running off the bad gas, it's mixed in with the gas that was already in your tank, but I only fill up when I'm really really low on gas, and I always fill it all the way up. Anyway, that gas gets you home, and you don't even notice that it's running bad? Crazy! Then you get home, shut it down, and a week later, it won't start. Because firing up is a harder task than just staying lit. So the gas was good enough to keep me going down the road, but not good enough to start a cold engine. If anyone told me that story, I'd call bullshit, but it happened. It's crazy but true. These old cars will always surprise you. So now I only buy gas from places I can trust like BP or Shell, and I've never had another issue like that one.
So the Holley EFI comes with an O2 sensor and the computer also measures the air and fuel. It's supposed to be "self learning" but you still have to do some manual tuning to get it just perfect.
That problem you stated sounds like a headache! I would of never been able to solve the bad gas situation! Maybe that's what's wrong with mine... I was finally able to verify that my TDC was right on mark. The engine I'm working on is a 306 crate engine from blue print engines. It didn't want to run out here in Colorado with the carburetor, it kept blowing the power valve so that's why I have the Holley EFI. It starter right up the first time I installed it so I was happy for about 500 miles or so. Then my battery started draining for no reason and I had to keep jump starting it every other day. I changed the alternator, battery and the problem still persisted. Come to find out I had a short somewhere under the dashboard because it caught on fire. Fast-forward to two years later I installed brand new wiring harness from painless wiring, they gave me all the wires from taillights, headlights, engine bay, interior, everything. I even changed the ignition switch and turn signal switch. The car started right away first time for that one day, next day I come back and it doesn't want to start, just cranks and no start.
I started to troubleshoot and found the clamp to my distributor was bowed out as if it had been overtightened so I thought maybe the vibration knocked my timing off. That's where I'm at today, i have the timing on 14 initial degrees, I have spark, fuel, air. It just runs while cranking but as soon as I let go of the key and the stater retracts then the engine dies right away. And I get some fire balls every now and then through the EFI
@@owenrobertson I took my valve cover off and made sure that the rotor was pointing towards spark #1 while both valves on cylinder #1 were closed/on compression. I then saw that the timing pointer was right on zero degrees and marked that with a white dot. Then I bolted everything back up and had my cousin crank the engine over while I used the timing gun so that I could advance it 14 degrees with the vaccine advanced plugged off. Then we hooked the fuel back up and tried to start the engine, all we get is a fireball every now and then and some sputtering
When your stop tool is down far enough into the hole, you'll turn the crank counter clockwise, and your piston will hit the stop before it hits TDC. Now your timing pointer is pointing to some random spot on your harmonic balancer, mark this spot on your balancer. Leave your stop exactly where it is. Now turn the crank clockwise (it won't turn counter clockwise because of the stop). The piston will drop back down into the hole, and eventually come back up again.
Like you said, if the exhaust valve is open, that's the exhaust stroke. The next time the TDC mark comes around, I should feel air pressure trying to escape past my finger (something is wrong if I don't), this is because both valves are closed on the compression stroke and the air has no where to escape, the path of least resistance is past my finger. Intake, compression, power, exhaust...four stroke engine, 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation.
Owen Robertson
I also did this test to see if the machine shop messed up and put my engine at TDC at the TDC of exaust stroke I turned my crank with a socket and breaker and every time air would escape through the plug home it was lined up with the TDC , so your saying it's not possible to hear the hiss when the Piston is on it's exaust stroke ? I am unable to fire my rebuilt 390 trying to cover all areas also if I know my timing is 8/10 degrees before top dead center is it a good idea to seat it at 8/10 mark before TDC then drop dist in going by what you said earlier ?if that's the case how do you know what position to put it in ? I seen 390 on you tube and some the vacum advance housing was wat to the left by the water neck some pointing straight ahead turning it changes the timing so if I put it in straight or to the left or right wouldn't that change it as well trying to start the motor ?
If it turns out that it's exactly what where the balancer was marked anyway, you're done, you know it's marked correctly. If it's off a bit, put a new mark on the balancer, and from now on use the new mark. If this is the case you'll want to check again in a few months to see if it got worse. Timing chain stretch or a balancer slipping a bit on it's rubber insulator can cause this.
Now it really doesn't matter just how deep you installed your stop, but keep in mind, the closer your two marks are to each other, the easier it will be to figure out their midpoint. To bring the two marks closer to each other, back the piston stop out a bit. If you don't do this, and your piston stops are 180 out from each other, just be sure to find the mid point that's on the side of your factory TDC mark, otherwise your new mark will be true BDC. -Owen
Awesome!
You look down the spark plug hole (plug has been removed), and sure enough you can see that the piston is all the way up. But is it really exactly at TDC or a few degrees off? A piston stop will tell you. Install the piston stop right now, screw it in until it hits the piston, it won't screw in any farther. Mark your threads, where they meet the spark plug hole. Before step 1, disconnect your battery, you don't want any chance of starter engagment.
I know this is old but remove all your spark plugs so you can turn the engine easier with your wrench or socket. I could hear the person huffing and puffing while trying to turn the engine.
@moparmania74: No, using a method like you described will only put you in the ballpark. The next time you have a cyl head removed, move a piston to what appears to be TDC, then keep turning the crank, while keeping an eye on both your balancer and your piston. You'll be amazed by how many degrees of rotation that the piston "appears" to be at exact TDC. Using a piston stop is the only way to find exact TDC.
1 Going back and forward will set 2 points on the harmonic, by dividing the 2 points you get you TDC. Get valve cover out, get a ball park...setting the pointer and the original mark, then look at the lobes in the camshaft as they give you the highest part of the lobe as the exaust stroke and the lowest journal of the camshaft the combustion point or valves closed =TDC . finally depending on the year you could move the coil to ignite a tester light which will point to TDC.
If you set the piston stop shallow, you'll end up with two marks that are relatively close to each other (Pac Man's mouth barely open). If you put your piston stop in deeper, you'll end up with two marks spaced farther apart on your harmonic balancer, mouth wide open so to speak. Narrow mouth is easier to measure, but either way will work. The center of your two marks is TDC, regardless of how far apart they are. If they are 6 inches apart, put a TDC mark at half that, 3 inches...done.
Question: I have pulled my distributor now several times on a AMC 360 ('88 Jeep Grand Wagoneer) it is running horribly and I am now wondering if dizzy went back in and is set up on exhaust stroke -short of pulling a valve cover, how can I verify distributor is set on intake TDC? Thanks!
It's real easy, disconnect the battery, remove the #1 spark plug, and have someone turn the crankshaft clockwise with a ratchet and socket on the crank bolt. While they are turning the engine over by hand, you'll have your finger pressed up against the cylinder head, where the #1 spark plug was. When you first feel air pressure forcing itself through the #1 spark plug hole, and passed your finger, tell your friend to stop turning, because you're coming up on TDC of the #1 compression stroke (you know it's not coming up on TDC of the exhaust stroke, because you won't feel air when it's all going out the open exhaust valve). Next look at your timing mark on your harmonic balancer, and your fixed-location timing pointer that you use to set your timing with a timing light. Slowly turn the crankshaft until the timing marks line up with the fixed timing pointer. Next question is where should your initial timing be set on an '88 Grand Wagoneer? I don't know where you want it, and I don't have books that go that new, but let's say you wanted 12 degrees of initial timing. Using your ratchet, and looking at your timing marks, put it at 12 degrees before TDC.
Once you've done that, here's what you've got, your engine isn't running, the battery isn't even connected, but physically your crankshaft is positioned so that the #1 piston is sitting 12 degrees before TDC on your compression stroke. This is where you want your distributor to fire your #1 spark plug. Look at your distributor cap, find where your #1 spark plug wire is, and using a marker, put a mark on your distributor housing that lines up with #1 on your cap. Now when you remove your cap, you can still see where the rotor should be pointing. Remove the cap, and if your rotor is pointing at the mark you made, then you know your timing is pretty close. If the rotor is pointing the opposite direction, then you're right, and you've got the timing set 180 off, set to the exhaust stroke (I doubt that though, I don't think it'll even start if you've done that, and you said it's just running rough). If your rotor is a little bit off, you can adjust the distributor to get it right on the mark you made, then tighten the distributor hold down. While you're at it, look up your firing order, and which direction your distributor turns, and starting with #1, make sure that you've got your firing order correct, if you find two wires are swapped, that's your problem, that would make it run rough for sure.
Now connect the battery and set your initial timing with a timing light, because everything you did with the battery disconnected was just to get you in the ball park. If it's still running rough, after you've verified all of the above, then maybe it's what this whole video is about, and the outer ring of your harmonic balancer has walked away from the inner ring, making all of the timing marks on the balancer useless now. This video series shows you how to check if your balancer's outer ring has shifted, by using a piston stop. It's rare for balancers to come apart like that, but it happens. It's happened to me twice, and both times, I ended up with an engine that ran terrible, after setting the timing, because the timing marks on the balancer were lying to me.
That's how I do it anyway, with the ratchet on the crankshaft that is. And normally I don't have a friend around to turn the crankshaft for me, so I've got one hand on the spark plug hole and my other hand on the ratchet, turning the crankshaft. Some people like to skip the ratchet idea, and use a remote starter, they remove the coil wire so the engine doesn't try to start and they use one hand to bump the starter motor, and they use their other hand to press a finger up against the #1 spark plug hole. And if you don't have a remote starter, you can still skip the ratchet idea, just have someone bump the key to turn the engine over. I don't like doing it that way, because you've got more control with a ratchet, the starter motor can go too fast for me, but either way will work for you. You can turn the crankshaft around and around, but you'll only feel air blowing out on the compression stroke, you'll know it when you feel it. I typed a lot, but it's really easy, the main thing isn't to memorize what I typed, it's just to understand what you're doing and why it works, it's just common sense.
Oh yeah, and if you do use a ratchet on that crankshaft bolt, be sure to remove that ratchet before you hook up your battery and start the engine. Put the #1 spark plug back in as well. :) Good luck!
Was your true tdc mark further left or right from your original tdc mark on the balancer if that makes sense?
Yeah, that makes sense. The white car wasn't off at all, but a buddy of mine in a different state, he was having trouble getting his timing right. No matter where he set it, it ran really bad so I made these videos to show him how to verify that his balancer's timing marks weren't lying to him. He was running the original balancer, so I told him the outer ring isn't attached to the inner ring, it's just two separate chunks of cast iron, with rubber in between, all press fit of course, and shouldn't come apart, but we're driving these old cars longer than anyone including the car builders thought we would.....or should. With the orange car, just once, and years and years ago, the inner piece of the balancer started to get away from the outer piece, slowly at first. So if you spin the inner piece, without spinning the outer piece, that puts your factory timing mark in the wrong spot. The crankshaft is spinning clockwise (forward looking aft), and it's bolted to the balancer, so if the rubber starts to let loose, the inner balancer will outrun the balancer's cast iron outer ring, in a clockwise direction. If you are looking down at the factory timing mark (on your balancer's outer ring), it's now to the left of where it should be. So on that orange car, when I found true TDC, and made my own new mark, it was to the right of where my outer ring told me it should be. The outer ring was lying. Of course, let it keep slipping and eventually you'll need to make a new mark again, and this time it might be on the left, if it's slipped around far enough.....or it could even be 180 degrees off, so not left or right.......so the moral of the story is that if you find your harmonic balancer is slipping on you, replace it right away. If you don't, eventually that outer ring will come completely free, and it'll just freewheel, can't go anywhere, it's got an engine behind it, and a crank pulley in front of it, but it'll make a hell of a racket.
A good idea is to ensure your No 1 piston is lower than the length of the stop if not you might wind the stop through the crown of your piston!!
Seems easy enough but you'd be amazed how many distributors I've seen that were dropped in 180 out (based on 360 degrees of camshaft rotation, cam turning at half the speed of the crank). Find TDC of the compression stroke, then move the crank to about 15 degrees BTDC of the compression stroke, then drop your distributor in with the rotor facing where you want #1 to be, set your firing order off of where #1 is, and your engine will fire right up.
jcinnamon01, think of it in terms of crankshaft rotation rather than the piston going up and down. For every 360 degrees of crankshaft rotation, the piston hits TDC once and BDC once. Now there's 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation on a 4 stroke engine, but for the purpose of degreeing a cam or checking the timing marks on your harmonic balancer, that really doesn't matter.
TDC is TDC whether it's TDC compression or TDC exhaust. To get the car running this matters a bunch and I went into that below. The piston stop isn't to determine which is compression and which is the exhaust stroke, it simply tells you where to mark your balancer for true and exact TDC, the piston is exactly at the top of the cylinder. Even with the head off, you can't eyeball it and be exact. Even with the head off you need a piston stop.
If your two marks end up being 8 inches apart, measure 4 inches for your TDC mark. If you go through all this work and it turns out your balancer was marked properly the whole time, that's fine too. At least you can rule that out when troubleshooting a timing issue. Anyway, as you can see by the video, it doesn't take that long, especially if you buy a piston stop on ebay rather than try to make one.
Are you sure about the clockwise thing? I heard it can mess up timing. Maybe you have a chain on your car?
Once the jam nut is tight, no further adjustment will be required, until you use it on a different engine. The jam nut holds the all thread in place, and makes the tool more solid than it would be other wise. The tool would work without the jam nut, but not quite as precisely. I experimented with how much all thread I would need, to make the process as easy as possible. Now every time I install it, and torque the "spark plug" into the cyl head, the stop is in the same place. See below.
If you can get to the number 1 spark plug and the timing pointer, you can do it. Be sure to make a solid stop that won't give, or just buy one on ebay. I should check mine again, to see if that balancers outer ring has walked any more. Really what I should do is buy a new balancer. I've put a lot of miles on that Mustang since making the video, haven't messed with the timing lately, it's been running good.
just the good ol' boys
Owen have you had any over heating of your starter using headers, I just installed a set of Headman headers and the starter is very close to the header, I was thinking of using exhaust wrap, whats your thoughts ? and thanks for the video !
I've only used that header wrap once, on my '70 Mach 1, and that was over 20 years ago. I wrapped both headers, because I read something in a magazine saying it helped performance, thermal something or other. I don't remember the details from that article. I ran those headers for a couple years, and nothing about that wrap really seemed all that worth while to me, so I haven't messed with it since. My Mach 1 has exhaust manifolds on it now, some of my cars still have headers (unwrapped), and no problem with burning up starters, as compared to my cars that don't have headers....from what I can tell, my starter shell out rate is the same regardless of unwrapped headers or stock exhaust manifolds. Plenty of burnt hands, trying to remove a starter while the header was still hot, though. So much easier replacing a starter on a car with exhaust manifolds. That said, if you've got an early Mustang like mine, the air in the engine bay can get really hot, it's cramped in there because of the shock towers taking up so much space, and there's not a lot of air flow through that engine bay, especially when you are stuck in traffic. Anything you can do to reduce engine bay temperature isn't a bad idea, to include header wrap. I cut a hole in my '69 and '70 hoods, just to get the air cleaner out of that hot engine bay, and up above hood level into ambient air temperature, that fixed the vapor lock issues I was having with my '70 Mach 1 in the summer, when I lived in Las Vegas.
Thanks for taking your time to reply, My situation is a 1976 Ford F350 which gives me a large engine bay, I replaced the worn out 390 with a fresh 360 and decided to go with headers and the Headman headers that I purchased run down very close to the starter, good to know that you didn't have any heat issues regarding the starter using headers, I ordered wrap and I will probably install a heat shield over the starter, again thanks for your input !
Good plan. Good luck with your truck!
Nice video ...... You said that the ground from the spark plug ....I am having starting issues on a rebuilt 390 my 69 Ford f 250 cranks but won't start I been searching possible soulutions why it cranks good and has a spark but it will not fire I'm just throwing this out there maybe you came across this the things I changed before my attempt to start it , I installed a thick ground wire from the block to the frame , cleaned the connections from the block to firewall ground One odd thing though I could not get a good ground to lite the test light unless I installed the battery cable ? I thought since the engine is cast iron it would be a good ground especially with that big block to frame wire I installed ? I'm thinking I have spark but not good enough spark . I tested 11 almost 12 volts at the positive coil terminal in start mode in run mode it was at 6 v , although on the negative side I had less that a volt in run and almost 1 v in start mode in one test I had the test light on the S solinoid small wire red and white it lit up in start mode but not in run mode ? Could it be I am having grounding issue since it is what actually causes a spark to the plugs with that ground strap I installed ?? I cranked my motor a little too much trying to get it started hoping I didn't mess up the cam already but I did not go crazy just got frustrated with it not firing .
You mentioned your cam, and seemed concerned that you wiped it out, I'm guessing it's a brand new cam, and you're referring to the cam break in that you need to do, I'm sure it's fine though. You're trying to fire up a brand new engine for the first time? Or just a brand new cam? I don't think you've got a ground issue. It sounds like you've got that covered. You should have a ground cable running from the negative post on your battery to the front of the block (doesn't matter where on the block, but sand off the paint for a good connection), and where your battery's ground cable is bolted to the block, you should have a second cable running from there to the frame (again, bare metal for a good connection). So now your battery is grounded directly to the block, and directly to the frame. Then run a small ground strap from the rear of the intake manifold to the firewall. Do that, and you'll be able to put the ground test light lead on just about any bare metal on the car, and yeah, both positive and negative terminals have to be on the battery, if that was your question. From what you wrote, I think you have all of that covered. Are you still running points in your distributor, or have you installed electronic ignition, if electronic, what exactly are you running? The voltage at your coil sounds right for an original points type distributor, there's a resistor wire that would explain the 6v. With points, the negative side of the coil just goes to your points contact, so check that wire's condition, look for any chaffing or bare wire, and check that wire's connection to the points. Then check your point gap with a feeler gauge (.017" to .019" gap will be fine). If it's way off, that's your problem, and if the points aren't brand new, get some sand paper, somewhere around 80 or 120 grit will work, fold it in half, so it's rough on both sides, and slide it back and forth in your point gap to clean both sides shiny, sometimes your engine won't start, no spark, and that's all it takes to get you back on the road. Once you've verified your point gap and cleaned your points, make sure that all of your spark plug wires are properly installed, fully seated at cap and plugs, and that the firing order is correct by checking it against a diagram that shows cylinder numbering and distributor cap rotation. Remember that the Ford distributor rotor spins counter-clock-wise, opposite of Chevy, and that Ford numbered their cylinders completely differently than Chevy and Mopar, just saying because if you're used to old cars that aren't Ford, this will throw off your game. Once all that is sorted out, put a timing light on the number one spark plug wire, and check your timing while someone cranks the engine for you. Be sure you've got a good charge on the battery, and at normal cranking speed, the timing light will strobe if you've got spark, this will also prove that you've got a solid ground, and that your coil, distributor, and points are working just fine (if no strobe at all, then those are your suspects, and I'd suspect the points before anything else). If the timing light shows 5 to 15 degrees BTDC on your harmonic balancer then it should start, and if it doesn't start, you should check for fuel, just look down your carb, and cycle the throttle lever with your hand, you should see fuel squirting down from the top of the carburetor. What carb are you running? You could cheat and spray a little starting fluid down the carb, and see if that helps it out....it should at least try to light off. Starting fluid will also tell you when it won't start because you've got a batch of bad gas...but gas that bad is really rare, it's only happened once to me. Here's the thing, you've got good rotation, so now as long as you've got compression, and valve timing, and spark timing, and spark, and good gas....it should fire right up. If it doesn't, you're missing at least one of those five things. I'm guessing you've got fuel, probably the first thing you checked. So the next question is spark. Did the timing light strobe while the starter was cranking the engine over? If so you've got spark at number one. As long as you're there, hook up the timing light to the #2 through #8 spark plug wires, and see if the light strobes, now you know that you've got spark at all 8 spark plugs, because if a spark plug is fouled, the timing light won't strobe on that specific spark plug wire. And if the points or coil is bad, or the point gap is wrong, none of the spark plug wires will strobe the timing light. If you have fuel and spark, how about spark timing? When the timing light was hooked up to the #1 spark plug wire, and a friend cranked the starter, did it read between 5 and 15 BTDC? If not, turn the distributor until it does. If no amount of distributor adjustment can get you there, then that's your problem. Put a mark on the opposite side of your harmonic balancer, 180 degrees out from your factory timing marks, and then see if your timing light strobes on that 180-out balancer mark you just made. If so, you've installed your distributor on the #1 piston's TDC alright, but you've installed it on TDC of the exhaust stroke, and not TDC of the compression stroke. If this is the issue, and I've seen it done lots of times, then simply go to your distributor cap and move all of your spark plug wires straight across from where they are now, grab two that are directly opposite each other, swap them....grab the next two, swap them....grab the next two, swap them....grab the last two swap them...and that's all 8, done, easy. If you're worried you messed up, by swapping the same wires twice, then just check your firing order again, it'll be the same firing order, but your #1 spark plug wire has now moved 180 degrees on the cap, so start at your new #1 and work ccw from there. See what that does? If your distributor rotor is exactly 180 out (from being set up on the exhaust stroke), then by moving every spark plug wire 180 degrees from it's current location, you just fixed everything in less than a minute, and your #1 spark plug will now fire on your #1 piston's compression stroke. Or if you don't like my shortcut idea, and you want the number 1 spark plug wire located on the distributor cap where the service manual diagram shows it, then you can do this instead, to accomplish the same goal, just pull the distributor, turn the rotor 180 degrees (if it's pointing at your carb, point it at the radiator), and drop it back in, and then leave all the spark plug wires where you had them. Then check the timing again, while cranking, and if it's now between 5 and 15 degrees, spray a small amount of starting fluid down the carb and it should fire right up. Once running, you can double check your timing with the light, and break in your cam while KEEPING A CLOSE EYE ON YOUR TEMP AND OIL PRESSURE GAUGES. Now if you have fuel, spark, and spark timing, and it still won't light off, then you'll need to consider valve timing, and the possibility that your new cam isn't installed correctly...or compression, and the possibility that the valves are adjusted wrong. I've seen guys not follow directions on where the crank gear and cam gear alignment marks are supposed to be, but that's rare. And I've seen guys crank down on rocker arms trying to adjust a hydraulic lift valvetrain the way you'd adjust a solid lift valvetrain, which prevents the valves from closing all the way, and you end up with zero compression at every cylinder, that's more common, but your 390 has a non-adjustable valvetrain with shaft rockers, so that can't be an issue, not on your engine. Not only that, but I'm willing to bet your new cam is installed properly, I've never seen cam installation instructions that didn't show a detailed diagram of where the timing marks go. You have to be trying pretty hard to mess that up. Hopefully it's just spark timing. Let me know what you figure out. Oh, and for breaking in a new cam, I recommend this: www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-159
Owen Robertson
Thanks for the reply I appreciate it it a 69 Ford f 250 rebuilt at a reputable engine shop I installed motor and trans it was long block but I put on the timing cover and the dots were line up center to center straight up it has a comp cam 265 dual energy and there were notes of recommended valve ajustment and it came with springs , already installed
with lines on them .
I'm running a alum carb spacer with a Holly 500 cfm 2bbl the grounds are as you said except I have a separate one to the block near the starter to the frame I was very concerned I didn't flatten out my cam but just turning over I doubt it I'm using comp cam break in oil and primed the pump , I dropped the dist in on the TDC and the pully was right on the mark TDC, loosening the number 1 I heard the air escaping and actually blowing on my hand just by turning it with a wrench when it was close to the number 1 TDC on the pully so I will try the timing light and see if it lights up on the marks while the engine is cranking and the other steps you mentioned .......thanks again
Owen Robertson
It started .......funny thing I went to pep boys last night and bought a voltage regulator it's the newer electronic type I turned the key and it fired right up but it ran rough I attempted to cam break in hell at 2,500 for about 5 min but the smells of burning paint ceramic coated exaust and it was misfiring a little I shut it down untill I get a oil pressure gauge the stock one did not work and I'm not going to chance that only now I have 12v on both sides of the coil with key on ? Is that normal before I changed the regulator I only had 1 v with key on at the negative side and it wasn't at 12 v positive it was under like 11 or so now I have 12 on both the tach is working
I am running points I had the pertronix in it at first but since it did not fire I put the points back in there gapped to 18 since I did not have a 17 I hear the matchbook thing but never new if that was the 2 sides folded over of course without the matches or just one side ? I reggaped the plugs to 34 I had them at 45 with the pertronix but since it did not fire and put points I put back to 34/35 it's the original autolite dist alot of stuff was original before the trans rebuild the filter said fomoco in trans maybe last change was 75 .
That was the concern about the 12v on the negative side coil ? One guy said that you would only have 12v at the negative side if the circuit was not complete ? But all I did was change the regulator ...sorry to high jack your TDC thread thanks for responding many did not ....and also they had 2 amp fuses to the regulator and alternator I looked at the diagram it showed 4 amp there so I changed those don't know if that made a difference .
You're not high jacking anything, I'm always happy to talk engines. I was a jet engine mechanic for 15 years, and an automotive machinist for a couple years before that. I'm only an amateur at what we're discussing, but I've got a bunch of classic cars, and over 30 years of constantly wrenching on them. That said, I'm no expert, but everything you're doing is right. Good job ensuring TDC of compression stroke rather than TDC of exhaust stroke, yup, that's how you do that. Break in lube, you primed the oil pump, good stuff, your cam is fine. Don't worry about not finishing the cam break in, you were right to shut it off. Install the oil pressure gauge and set the timing with a light, because that engine running the way you described it, it's probably not set at 10 degrees BTDC right now, it's probably set somewhere around 15 degrees ATDC. You probably need to turn the distributor clockwise to advance the timing, that should smooth it out. Don't do it by ear, though, put a timing light on it, and get it right. Once you've got good timing and good water and oil gauges, go ahead and finish your cam break in. I've flattened two cams, but they were both high lift solid grinds, and it was before word got out on the need for break-in zinc oil additives. Your cam will be fine, don't even worry about it. Good choice on the cam and carb, it'll run great. Everyone will tell you that you need a four barrel on that 390, but that's just old school "know how" kicking in. Back in 1985 I absolutely knew that I needed a Holley 750 double pumper on the 289 in my '65 Mustang....did i really? No, but I sure as hell put one on there. We were just dumb kids, thinking the more cfm the better. I have cars with points, a car with Pertronix II, and I've got cars with HEI. Points are fine, and good thinking dialing the spark plug gap back down on your 390. I guess the matchbook thing was cool back when everyone had points, and most everyone had a easy access to a matchbook somewhere. Personally, I just keep a feeler gauge in each of my car's ash trays for setting point gap. You did that right as well, .018" will be fine for your point gap. As for the readings at your coil, all that really matters is the positive side of your coil, don't worry about the negative side. The negative side of your coil is going to read one thing if your points are closed, and something completely different if your points are open. So you shut the engine off, and the question is, where's the point gap at, is it open or closed? Remove the distributor cap and turn the engine by hand until the points are wide open, and you should have zero volts at the negative side of the coil. I think that's how it works, when the gap is closed, the circuit is completed to ground. I have learned one thing, if your points are open, you can leave your key on, and nothing bad will happen to your points, but if your points are closed, and you leave your key in the run position over night, the points will burn, and you'll have to clean them up with sandpaper. I figured this out after leaving my coil energized over night in my '68 GTO. I have a toggle switch to energize the positive side of the coil, and I needed to do some welding in the trunk, so I ran the GTO out of gas, and since the engine starved itself of fuel and died on it's own, I forgot to turn off the batman switch for the coil...fried the points, but no damage to the coil or anything else. That was dumb, and I should have disco'd the battery before I started welding, anyway. I knew better than that, but sometimes I don't think. Your 390 fired up though, so your points and coil are working just fine. It's running rough, but that's probably timing, because very few people are lucky enough to drop a distributor in, and hit the timing perfectly. Now if you set your timing to 10 degrees BTDC, or wherever you plan to put it, and it still runs rough, then yeah, maybe look at your points or coil as the cause, but right now, I'd focus on timing. One thing though, and you can check this after your cam break-in, no rush, but if the car is running, and you've still got a straight 12v at the positive side of your coil, it might be because your truck's original resistor wire for the positive side of the coil was fried at some point, and someone bypassed it years ago. No resistor wire is a bad thing, the engine will run fine for about 200 miles, and then your points will start to burn up and it'll start running really rough. Here's the easy fix, if you think your original resistor wire might be long gone from your wire harness (and a lot of them are), just go to Pep Boys, and ask for a ballast resistor for a '69 Dodge Dart (or any Mopar that's old enough to have points). Mopar ran a ballast resistor instead of a resistor wire, and it's a cheap part that's really easy to install. All of my cars with points, that originally had resistor wires, are now running '69 Dodge Dart ballast resistors, because12v at the positive side of the coil (while the engine is running) is fine for Pertronix, but not fine for points, so you need either the original resistor wire, or you need an external ballast resistor. Now what about your coil? Are you running a points coil (stock for that truck), or is it a coil specifically built for the Pertronix? You need a points coil, and not something that Pertronix sold you to go with their kit. Here's a good video explaining how a points engine gets 12v at the positive side of the coil during engine cranking, and then only 9v at the positive side of the coil (thanks to a ballast resistor) once the engine is running. He should have mentioned that a lot of Fords, and my '68 GTO, and a bunch of other cars, and probably your truck, came stock with a resistor wire instead of an externally mounted ballast resistor, but that's okay. Another thing I noticed is that in his diagram, his wire from "I" on the starter solenoid normally goes to "+" on the coil, and not to the coil side of the ballast resistor the way he drew it, but it doesn't matter, either way it's doing the same job, and he does make mention of this at four minutes and seven seconds into his video: th-cam.com/video/PCs5gAZBbxU/w-d-xo.html
If that thing forces the piston to stop, then there is no way you can be sure that you got to the very top of the compression stroke. The only sure way is to measure the gas (air) coming out of the spark plug hole on the compression stroke.
Good job! Thanks
Drop that same distributor in at TDC of the exhaust stroke and it won't run so good. If your valve covers are off, you can just watch the valves, otherwise, use your finger in the spark plug hole.
the TDC is stamped in metal at he factory where thhe make the crankshafts its not going to change - remove spark plugs so you rotate eng to line up tdc on the arrow stop remove top of dist look at the rotter minis pointing at #6 wire which is at 1 oclock pos looking down at dist connect timming light to # 6 wire spin eng with starter see where light is in relation to tdc i want it on 4 deg before tdc loosn bolt to allow dist to move slowly rotate dist.till it lights 4 deg line before tdc spin starter vertfy 4 degs tighten dist install spark plugs put top back on dist start eng verfy #4 flashing shes timed , easy
It would be easy if that was true about the stamped TDC not changing. For timing purposes, the TDC mark is stamped on the outer ring of your harmonic balancer. The outer ring on a factory harmonic balancer isn't permanently married to the inner ring. If it was, then no problem, because the inner ring of that balancer is keyed to your crankshaft and it can't move. You've got the inner ring of the balancer, then a rubber cushion, and then your outer ring, and it's all just an interference fit.....and rubber deteriorates over the decades. All I've owned my whole life is old cars, the oldest being a 1955 Pontiac, and the newest is a 1975 Bronco. I've never owned a car newer than 1975, and I've learned that decades old harmonic balancers don't always stay together, married by that vibration absorbing layer of rubber. The outer ring can walk away a little bit. Keep driving it and eventually it'll keep walking until it completely removes itself from the inner ring, and then it's just free-wheeling in there, between your timing chain cover and your crank pulley, and it's not attached to anything. Once that happens, you'll hear it. It can't go anywhere, it's trapped, but it'll be loud. I made this video for a friend who couldn't get his engine to run right, even though he had his timing set at 10 BTDC. And it ran fine the last time he timed it at 10. Thing is, it's no longer 10 BTDC, if your outer ring has taken a 30 degree stroll from where it's supposed to be. Simply timing it off of #6 like you said (180 degrees from #1, in your firing order) won't help at all, if your outer ring has walked, unless your outer ring has somehow managed to walk exactly 180 degrees. There are other reasons for wanting to find true TDC, the most common being if your factory timing pointer, that's normally bolted to the timing chain cover is completely missing, and you have to fabricate one. Sure if it's an old Ford, you can probably just buy that timing pointer, but there are lots of old cars that don't have the same level of parts availability. This video is for people that want to find true #1 TDC by using a piston stop. Most people will never need to do that, but some will, I've had to.
Would u make it the same length as the stock spark plug that came out from end to end?? It seems to me the stop tool would half to be slightly longer then the stock plug to actually (stop) the piston.. What am I missing here??
How do we know it is tdc exhaust stroke?
That's the easy part. Just pull the number one spark plug, and block the spark plug hole with your finger tip or thumb. Then turn the crankshaft with a 1/2" drive ratchet setup on the harmonic balancer bolt. As the piston comes up on compression stroke, the compressed air has no where to escape, so it blows out by your finger, you'll feel it. When the air blows out, just keep an eye on the balancer, the timing mark will be coming up soon and you'll be at TDC of compression stroke on number one. You could remove the coil wire, and turn the engine over with with the starter, with your finger blocking the spark plug hole, but the crank spins kind of fast like that, and it's easy to run it too far, and miss the timing mark. More control with a ratchet setup, but that's just my preference, either way will work. Just make sure you know where number one is, different car makers number their cylinders differently, which is annoying. If you don't have a repair manual for your car, you should buy one. And of course for this trick to work, your valvetrain needs to be fully installed, and rocker arms adjusted (up/down on the pushrod, while adjusting rockers on hyd lifters, never twist the pushrod between your thumb and fingers, very good mechanics will tell you to twist, terrible idea....too easy to accidentally end up with negative lash, up/down to find zero lash, up/down will never lie to you, once you have zero lash established, another half turn on the rocker arm nut will put you in the right spot). And you know it's not the exhaust stroke by putting your finger on the spark plug hole, because on the exhaust stroke, the exhaust valve is open as the piston comes up, so the air doesn't need to blow by your finger, it just goes out the exhaust port.
@@owenrobertson Owen,u r the best. If u don't mind,I may give u my watsapp number for a more private conversation. U might possibly have to train me further. I own a repair shop in Kampala but need training from time to time as technology changes.
@@owenrobertson email me at ericwodeya@gmail and we share contacts for that purpose.
@@wodeyaeric5351 You own a repair shop in Kampala, Uganda? I'm guessing I'll be very little help. I'm not a pro, I'm just a guy that likes turning wrenches on old cars as a hobby. Still, I'm happy to make a new friend, so I shot you an email.
@@owenrobertson That part of Kampala is the city square with Mapera house imposing opposite it. Uganda speaks English for a national language with scattered users of Kiswahili. Kiswahili is mostly used in neighbouring Kenya and Tanzania--infact in Kenya's parliament it is used together with English.
Step 1: Turn your crank clockwise a bit, to bring the piston back down into the hole. Now turn your piston stop in just a bit, maybe an 1/8" of an inch or so. Now turn your crank counter clockwise, until your piston hits your stop, you'll know when this happens, because you won't be able to turn the crank any farther. Of course if the crank spins counter clockwise, past TDC, the stop wasn't in far enouth, so go back to step 1.
it so much easyer to turn eng by fan if you remove spark plugs to put on TDC i dont know where this #1 piston info comes i have factory manual it plainly states use #6 pos. to set timming yet people with this same eng will argue its #1 i realize when you set one you set them all as matter of fact you can use spark plug hole for tdc it over the valves not the piston?????? one other thing my dist shaft will not go 180 it has offset tang to prevent this
you can find so you will always know wher the fireing order most engs on internet make a copy also tag each wire so you know where they go
EXCELLENT MATE
To understand how the piston stop works, and why it doesn't matter how long it is, think of Pac Man with his mouth open. You've got 360 degrees of Pac Man, but only 1 of those degrees is the exact center of his mouth. To find it you'd simply measure from the upper "lip" to the lower "lip". The center of that measurment is the exact center of the mouth. If his mouth was opened wider, wouldn't matter, the center of the mouth is still found the same way.
A piston stop just gets you in the ball park.
Explain? If you use a piston stop, and it stops the piston just before TDC while turning the crank cw, and you mark the balancer, and then you turn the crank ccw and again it stops the piston just before TDC, and you mark the balancer, the exact center of those two marks is TDC. It's not ballpark, it's TDC. I'm not making this up, it's how you find TDC when using a camshaft degree wheel. If there's a better way to find TDC, please let me know. Thanks.
Sure, when you use your piston stop, only install it enough to contact the piston, and stop movement of the piston. If it's screwed in enough to do that, you're good, no point screwing it in farther, in fact that would just make things harder for you. The more shallow your stop is, the closer your two marks will be, this makes finding the center of those two marks a lot easier. Too shallow, of course, and the piston won't hit it at all. It's all pretty easy, just don't start the engine! -O
Using a piston stop, you end up with to marks on your harmonic balancer, think of these marks as Pac Man's upper and lower lips, the center of those two marks is the "center of Pac Man's mouth". In this case thinking of 360 degrees of crankshaft rotation, the center of your two marks on your balancer is TDC, measure the center of those two points going in the other direction, and you'll find a spot exactly 180 out from TDC, this is BDC.
Now you try to start the car, to set the timing with a light, but there's no power. You remember that your battery is disco'd, and that reminds you to remove the piston stop and reinstall the spark plug before starting the engine.
I see.
Also, why not just use a long extension down the plug hole, if you put millimeter dots on the ext, and have a friend read off while you slowly turn the crank?
Also I think BMWs have chains even still. I just changed the belt on my honda civic. god damn what a pain in the a. Shouldve had an engine lift.
U should market that tool .it could make u money just a thought
Once you mark TDC on your balancer, figuring out which is TDC of compression, and which rotation brings you to TDC of the exhaust stroke is easy. See my other comments on that below.
Yup, chain on my car. Old cars have chains. None of my cars have a timing belt.
If your goal is to make people seasick you have succeeded.
good video but for ten bucks worth just buying
Oh please. Harmonic dampener.
Dum valve sound
Well much is a true tool fudge $20bucks