*DISCLAIMER:* Crazy that I have to say this, but I LOVE both the movies and the books. This series isn't meant to hate on either. It is simply an *analysis* of the differences between the two mediums. Because I'm a nerd. :) *Minor Correction:* Lugbúrz is just Black Speech for Barad-dur. It’s not a separate place. Thanks to everyone who noticed this. Love this community!
I understand that the white Wizard( I can't write his name correctly here) had given his Orcs orders to bring back Prisoners alive and with out any belongings stolen from them. I believe that the Whit Wizard's orcs teamed up with another group of Orcs who wanted to not follow the orders by killing Merry and Pip so they could then steal the Evil Ring from them. I believe this causes them to fight each other instead
@@Just_Some_Average_Hobbit There are two types of half-orcs. The first type is encountered at Bree, the squint-eyed southerner who is more man than orc. The second is the Uruk Hai, a larger, more intelligent breed that looks more like an orc.
I can imagine an unwritten scene where Marry and Pippen try to convince Grishnack that the Lambas bread in their pockets is a elven biological weapon agains orcs.
Lugburz is not an outpost, "Lugbúrz is the Black Speech name for Barad-dûr, a fictional fortress in J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth writings, and is located in northwest Mordor, near Mount Doom"
Taverns? They have crappy camps but did they ever try mimicking taverns in permanent settlements? Like Mordor or even places like goblintown before they were called to war?
@@Dookieman1975 Are you telling me that Uruk-hai and Orcs are literate? I have got to see a scene with baby Orcs and Goblins sitting in class learning their ABC's. I can't get this image out of my head now.
Amazon's ROP Season 1: Orcs are like vampires, they get burned by sunlight Amazon's ROP Season 2: Orcs are now immune to sunlight I guess somebody forgot about that in the production room.
@@EoghanGriffin Those with Adar are orcs, never stated as Uruk-hai. Unless Adar can conjure them like Saruman and Sauron can, then maybe I'll believe it.
As a fan of the books (also having read the Silmarillion) this change doesn't bother me too much. The three biggest changes that always bothered me were the conflict between Sam & Frodo on the narrow path which never happened. The lack of the appearance of other allies coming to protect Minas Tirth (other kingdoms of men did send soldiers, not just Rohan). Namely Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth. He brought a contingent of knights and was actually a significant character in the books. But the most egregious and frankly outright bad change is the portrayal of Denethor. I could write an entire dissertation on everything wrong with Jackson's portrayal of Denethor. In the books Denethor is a much more sympathetic character. I think any book reader would agree book Denethor and movie Denethor are basically two entirely different characters.
I agree and I like book Denethor. They significantly dumbed down pretty much every character who wasn't especially singled out for their wisdom. Like Gimli for comic relief. Or to cause conflict like Theoden or especially Pippin. In the books Pippin is a smartass and doesn't come across as such a bungler at all.
I personally wish that Grishnak and Ugluk would have stayed true to Tolkiens version. Tolkien has Grishnak and the Orcs look smarter and less primitive than Peter Jackson and I prefer that version since it seems more realistic and makes for a better story in my opinion. I love Peter Jacksons version, but I think Tolkiens is better.
@@Dookieman1975 Orcish is based on Black Speech, but heavily altered and split into so many dialects that Westron (the Common Tongue) is the lingua franca between different orc tribes.
After Grishnackh has been killed, a horseman is riding past the hobbits. The rider does not see Merry or Pippin, as you mention, but the horse either sees or via some sixth sense senses their presence and jumps over them to avoid harming them. I'm guessing that incident inspired Peter Jackson for the scene with the horse that almost steps on Pippin's face, but misses.
Originally in the film, Snaga was meant to be stabbed rather than beheaded but on the day of shooting Peter Jackson, who likes gore and guts (hence why many of his earlier movies like Bad Taste, Meet the Feebles and Braindead/Dead Alive have gore in them, The Lord of the Rings because of the PG-13 rating have a lot less of it but with the black blood of the orcs and Uruks, he could get away more with that compared to human and animal blood, though they did make gore and guts for the filming in case he wanted to do an R-rated version one day and to see how much he could get away) he decided the orc to get his chopped off.This have been confirmed by Dominic Monaghan (Merry) and Billy Boyd (Pippin) in the actor's commentary. On a side note, Grishnak is played by Shepthen Ure, who plays several orc characters throughout the trilogy including Gorbag in The Return of the King, though voiced by Jim Duncan. Snaga is played by Jed Brophy, who earlier in The Two Towers was the Rohirrim who found Théodred and later in the movie he plays Sharku the Warg Rider leader and in The Hobbit trilogy he played Nori the dwarf plus he played Void in Braindead/Dead Alive and as a Venture Crewmember in King Kong. Andy Serkis (Gollum) voiced The Maggoty eaten-bread Uruk, Snaga and Ugluk.
The bit with suggesting to eat the hobbits' legs because they don't need them was funny but I'd much rather see the menacing Grishnakh of the books, with the voice softer but more evil. The movie orcs are depicted as part comic relief, part simple-minded brutes, they don't evoke fear in the way that the original Grishnakh would, which is a pity. And again, we are robbed of Pippin's quick and brave thinking in a very dangerous situation - what a pity again.
There is so much they filmed that never even came close to making the Final Cut. From what I understand Jackson was willing to film anything and they ended up with a ridiculous amount of stuff. I give Jackson props because he was talented enough to realize what was gonna work and what they needed to massage to make it a movie the masses would go see.
@@TheBizziniss Exactly. It was not an easy task to translate the books to the screen. Some changes were pretty good. Some not so much. Overall it was pretty good. My biggest grief is Legolas and Gimli. Kind of hate it. I like the Orcs. Jackson did an excellent job here.
I don't mind either. And although I know Jackson's trilogy and RoP is not comparable at all in overall quality, I do find it interesting just what a complete pass the former gets on even the major and bad changes, while people freak the f*ck out over the tiniet detail of RoP. I get the feeling that a lot of "Tolkien experts" online are actually just movie fans, and have not even read Tolkien's book. Orcs is a great example! RoP's orcs are much truer to the real Tolkien orcs than Jackson's zombie orcs, so a "real" Tolkien fan would not have freaked out over seeing a female and child orc.
@@TheSaltyAdmiralAgreed. The one thing for Jacksons changes is that most of them were fairly minor and more focused(movie vs. series limitations). RoP changed a massive amount of lore when they didn't need to. I'm not saying to not like it, though! You do you! I'm personally a fan of a lot of Uwe Bolls movies... >_> The salt must flow! (Apologies for multiple replies. TH-cam mobile is garbage at times.)
@@MrNoucfeanor Yes, people are angry because they ran amok with the source material, and then they see everything as bad. The way I look at it is like this: I'm a huge fan of D.C comics(not the movies), but that universe has lots of great and crazy non-canon stories. One of my favorite is Superman, Red Son. In this comic Superman landed in Soviet Russia instead of America, and becomes somewhat of a puppet of Stalin/the state, at least for a while. I love that they make insane non-canon stories like that. And that is how I enjoy RoP, as a non-canon story in Tolkien's universe, where everything is a little different :)
I love this series. Your straightforward presentation combined with your cinematic elements are sublime. As a voracious Tolkien reader myself, every time you post a new weekly LOTR MvM video, I feel like I’m sitting in an old, yet familiarly comfortable, armchair that I haven’t seen in years.
I do own a Grishnákh action figure. But I do remember in the video game War of the Ring, which didn't have many characters from Lord of the Rings in it, that Grishnákh was one of the playable evil heroes, and one Evil mission has Grishnákh destroying the Warning beacons of Gondor.
This series has been so fun. My mother was a huge Tolkien fan so I started reading the books very early on when the Rankin/Bass and then Bakshi versions of The Hobbit and LotR came out in the 70s. I read them all many times when I was young so when the Jackson movies came out I of course spotted almost every little change he had made. It has been a while since I read the books though and I have watched the Jackson movies many times so now I've started to forget some of the changes. It has been really fun following along and being reminded. I should probably read the books again soon.
I was a bit disappointed with Grishnákh in the movie. He has some great lines in the books indeed. And these Captains were not dumb. I really like this part in the books because it give great insight of Orc life. Jackson got that somewhat right. And they sure do look extremely good in the movies.
Oh, Legolas is a fountain of slap-you-in-the-forehead obvious pseudo-wise one-liners. Cracks me up every time I re-watch the series. But it establishes his "elvishness," i suppose.
@@danvol3835 Legolas and Gimli are the biggest offenders in the movies. In general the audience who watched the movies before reading the books like it. And the Orcs look great.
I would have loved to see Grishnack still be loyal to Mordor and change the final confrontation at Fangorn to him asking to turn around and go to Mordor instead of Isengard. You could still have the grey ork come up and try to eat the hobbits and still have the “meat back on the menu” moment. But without sacrificing Grishnack.
I don't mind the changes this week. But I'm really looking forward to next weeks episode. I would have loved to have Gimlis disagreement with Eomer concerning the "Lady of the Golden Wood" in the movie. Was missing that horribly.
It’s not activists, it’s corporate opportunists trying to score some culture points and generate broader appeal. It’s dumb, but it’s not some nefarious agenda, just suits trying to make more money.
OK, considering the Rings of Power, Peter Jackson is a great, a really great director and producer. Producing exactly Tolkien's work is really hard. But 1. why did Aragorn need to become a weakling? And 2. Eomer a dumb blonde? They're nothing like that in the books, they're simply just and moral heroes that get an instant connection to eachother. The actors are great, it isn't their fault. Aragorn should have been a stubborn fatalist, Eomer should have been a sharp person that sees through any lie immediately, not an unkempt resentful blonde.
As amusing as the menu comment is, I am horrified by the act of cannibalism. Even orcs know that's gross, and the Uruk-hai and other orcs came to blows over the mere suggestion. ************* ‘Aye, we must stick together,’ growled Uglúk. ‘I don’t trust you little swine. You’ve no guts outside your own sties. But for us you’d all have run away. We are the fighting Uruk-hai! We slew the great warrior. We took the prisoners. We are the servants of Saruman the Wise, the White Hand: the Hand that gives us man’s-flesh to eat. We came out of Isengard, and led you here, and we shall lead you back by the way we choose. I am Uglúk. I have spoken.’ ‘You have spoken more than enough, Uglúk,’ sneered the evil voice. ‘I wonder how they would like it in Lugbúrz .... Saruman is a fool, and a dirty treacherous fool. But the Great Eye is on him. ‘Swine is it? How do you folk like being called swine by the muck-rakers of a dirty little wizard? It’s orc-flesh they eat, I’ll warrant.’ Many loud yells in orc-speech answered him, and the ringing clash of weapons being drawn. _-The Uruk-hai_
Saruman's White Tower = the Ivory Tower / Academia. Once upon a time, universities were a pillar for good in an enlightened society. Nowadays, universities churn out industrial quantities of indoctrinated, half-human orcs. I say this as somebody who received his degree back in 2007 (and things weren't ideal back then, either). The solution for our universities is the same as for Isengard in Lord of the Rings.
The only change that really makes no sense is that the orcs stop at the edge of Fangorn instead of running into the safety of the trees. The riders HAVE to cut them off for the scene to be believable.
If so, then why did Jackson then significantly extend the ride to Helm's Deep & the meeting with Faramir and subsequent journey to Osgiliath? Those two sets of scenes alone add around 40-45 minutes to the film, despite them not being in the books.
@@reeceemms1643 yet Faramir never took Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath, that was purely an unneccessary addition by Jackson. Same with the Warg attack en route to Helms Deep. If Jackson couldn'f properly portray these journeys without resorting to the addition of almost an hour of extra material, then he can't be much of a film-maker. A better explanation is that the success of Fellowship went to his head, and he got ridiculously self-indulgent in Two Towers-cutting out Tolkien's material simply to make room for his own "fanfic" material.
I'm curious to see how the scene of the riders hunting and encamping around the uruks would play out in a film; the suspense and uneasy calm rather than the sudden action scene we are used to seeing in most movies. I wonder would it be exciting or boring in the different medium?
Well, just as a side note: no sane or even remotly sane warrior would go for an attack on horse at night. Maybe in the desert but absolutely noone would do that at night. And there is no such thing as a surprise attack at night with full plate people on horse.
Eating them is implicit throughout these scenes in the book. Thats why they want to kill them, and that's what starts the argument between the Or factions. Its literally stated how Saruman keeps his orcs supplied with "man-meat" in the opening to the scene, and its also mentioned that Orcs eat Orcs here. Its pretty faithful, and the minor changes are what youd expect for the pacing of a movie. Theres certainly no "plot" changes here. In the book, their feet are only bound initially, then their leg bindings are cut so they dont have to be carried.
I love me some intelligent-to-the-point-of-sinister orcs/goblins. Comic relief brutes are fun, but plenty of humans are brutes too. Orc soldiers should be brutes, not because they're orcs, but because they're soldiers, amplified because of a strict army hierarchy based on fear and perhaps a touch of corruption, both from the magic of Sauron and from the orcs' origin as a twisted mockery or imitation of elves. On orc-nature, orcs are routinely referred to and seen as goblins by Tolkien in the Hobbit, and goblins are traditionally overwhelmingly seen as wily tricksters, powerful in the ways of magic and quite intelligent.
As far as liking Peter Jackson versions of scenes - I think the only fair way to judge his work is by considering the medium he worked on, film as compared to literature, and in that light I think he did well. He represented Tolkien's work fairly in a way that does not undermine it and invites the audience who is interested in more to read the book. What more can you ask for in 9-12 hours?
Ngl, I prefer the movie scene than the one in the book. It just gives them more personality and almost humanizes them while enforcing how violent, animalistic, callous and almost frat boyish they are and honestly makes a bit more sense than wanting to torture the hobbits but I did forget if it was for getting info which makes perfect sense to torture them
I did tried to imagine the book version of the scene with movie's actors and now I kinda wish it would be like in the book. And btw, in the movie Merry and Pippin are also bound on wrists and ankles. You can see the thick ropes around their ankles in some of the wide shots (ex 6:13). Which is also why they crawled up until they got rid of the ropes, instead of running.
I like the idea that orcs, the most vile of creatures, are actually capable of resisting the ring and only fail the price of their own failure. It has a interesting implication and arguably fits with a Christian concept of what it means to he spiritually strong.
Once again, I have no complaints whatsoever with how Jackson handled this. The book tended to drag on from a movie point of view, so Jackson compressed it. That's what adaptations do. If anything I do lament the fact that the different groups of uruks were not differentiated since I _like_ the political dynamics of fictional worlds, but that belongs in the books, not the movies.
In the movie their legs are also tied. It's visible when they crawl away. Now, when they got themselves free, I believe we only see they remove ropes from their hands, but that's just a continuity error.
I've read the books, I love the books. I also love the movies and I don't fault the creators for combining and changing a few things in regards to these events. Also, it gave us the "meats back on the menu, boys!" scene which is timeless!
I do like the idea of giving the orcs more personality; interpersonal relations, betrayals, etc. Book version of Grishnak sounds great. As much as this might sound odd to some, it is one of the reasons I'm enjoying the Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor/War games, as they give a lot more personality to the forces of Mordor, rather than just having them as some force for evil
Eomer is the best character in the movies, not counting members of the fellowship. Hands down. (Yes, I may be a big Carl Urban fan, but that's beside the point. I had the same opinion back when I first saw the movies, long before he kicked ass in Judge Dredd, Almost Human (an awesome, yet sadly short-lived, sci-fi series), and of course, The Boys.)
Another major change you didn't mention was that Grishnakh and the Mordor orcs were not just orcs, they were altered to be bigger and stronger than regular orcs, similar to apes. Sauruman improved his orcs by mating them with men. Sauron improved them by changing them on a genetic level.
13:20 "Still following orders and not wanting to take ring for himself." he never was exposed to the influence of the ring. Maybe if he was he would want to take it for himself.
There is a guy named Charlie Hopkins whose an impressionist that does a spot on Gandalf with a deep fake face and watches Lord or the Rings stuff in character and You should totally see if he would record a short video as Gandalf saying: *SUBSCRIBE YOU FOOLS!*
like my comment on last weeks episode, the nuances between orc uruk hai and the hobbits removal was a mistake. the location change is an improvement honestly.
I’m fine with the changes he made. Book adaptations to the movie is always going to be difficult and you have make difficult choices of what to keep and what to cut.
I think where Jackson and his co-writers really succeeded was in keeping the spirit of the story even when they rearranged things, unlike a certain ill-fated imitation.
I always found it wierd how they wanted to get a fire going and start chopping away at living trees. that‘s not really how it works but it‘s very orcish
Peter Jackson would have done better by keeping to the books regarding the orcs. It would have made them more complicated, and exactly this conflict is not too hard to understand by any film viewer.
For fellowship of the ring don’t get Andy Serkis on audible his voice is really deep and fatiguing but get him for the rest because Gollum makes it worth it.
I understand that Orcs won't eat the Hobbit's way Bread because it was cooked by the Elves. I believe they find some on Merry or Pip or I mite be confusing Gollum with the Orcs
Exactly, all the fan boys like to act like Jackson’s work was 100% amazing and the best thing ever. Yet, they strained really far from the books as well.
This is one of the few places where I actually don't prefer the book version. Both versions in this particular area have their own merits, although I do prefer that the book hobbits in general are depicted as far more competent than the film hobbits, with Sam being the only exception and staying about as cool in film as in writing.
If you were happy to do a kind of art-film, sort of documentarian style versus a Hollywood piece, you could do it over several blocks, and get the singing and poetry front and centre.
If Fact or Fantasy can parse out what happened and describe it in a few minutes - PJ could have done so too, AND it would have been much better (audiences have never been as stupid as Hollywood always assumed). PJ produced a very maimed version of LotR, in some ways outrageous... but compared to what Amazon has done (no surprises there either) PJ comes off as a saint/genius.
Jackson got a lot of things wrong. Probably the biggest, is thinking orcs and goblins are different, when they're the very same thing. Goblins cannot climb walls like Spider-Man, and they are not as large as a man. Orcs/goblins are quite small. The Ukuk-hai are as large as a man, that's what really sets them apart. Whist I'm here, elves don't have pointed ears, either. There's no mention of pointed ears, in either Tolkien's work, or the Anglo-Saxon folklore, on which it's based. Which suggests, they don't have pointed ears, otherwise it would have been something worth mentioning.
@@aley211 Some people don't have a minds eye. That's a real thing. It explains why people like yourself prefer films. For people who can create vivid images in their mind as they read, books are on another level.
Great video - I have bought second Uglúk figure - just realized he was blonde heh :D Also I always wondered why Orcs and Uruks drip blood from their mouth all the time apparently it is the coal the actors had to chew to be realistic according to Peter Jackson in appendices
I think Peter Jackson did a really good job, honestly it's one of the best adaptations I've ever seen. And I'm old enough to have seen a lot of books being massacred by being made into a movie.
I guess TH-cam like the response from complaining videos about Rings of power they making them for retro Jackson version too. The bombastic excuses era is now.
I believe the Orc that had his head chopped off was Snaga. Also, for some reason JRR Tolkien named two different Orcs Snaga. This one, and one that appears in book 6, chapter 1 of Return of the King. Not sure why this was done.
Makes total sense in a way. Many people have the same name. It is an illusion of Fantasy that each character has a unique name. But in a real world, there would be people with the same name alive at the same time. Like, « Philip » hahaha
@@axelpalmen5025 Yeah, pretty much. Snaga means slave in Black Speech, and was apparently often used of smaller orcs. Larger orcs called themselves Uruk, Uruk-hai, both in Isengard and Mordor.
I wish people would just get OVER themselves about books vs. films. If you haven't made something as epic as PJ & NLC's trilogy (which few on the planet ever have), then it's fairly moot to nitpick over details that don't matter in the grand scheme. Further, there are *TONS* of places where what PJ, Fran, NLC, etc. did to *improve* Tolkien's storytelling worked wonders. There are many lines, shots, scenes, and so forth which weren't in the books at all, but most certainly LIFTED the storytelling to bigger and better places. Meanwhile avoid Zon's abominable "Rings of Flour", and try supporting the work of independent creators.
![The Dragons of Middle-earth [COMPILATION]](/img/n.gif)
*DISCLAIMER:* Crazy that I have to say this, but I LOVE both the movies and the books. This series isn't meant to hate on either. It is simply an *analysis* of the differences between the two mediums. Because I'm a nerd. :)
*Minor Correction:* Lugbúrz is just Black Speech for Barad-dur. It’s not a separate place.
Thanks to everyone who noticed this. Love this community!
Also, the "u" probably shouldn't be pronounced as in "but" but as in "put".
I understand that the white Wizard( I can't write his name correctly here) had given his Orcs orders to bring back Prisoners alive and with out any belongings stolen from them.
I believe that the Whit Wizard's orcs teamed up with another group of Orcs who wanted to not follow the orders by killing Merry and Pip so they could then steal the Evil Ring from them. I believe this causes them to fight each other instead
Question: What do Goblin men look like? And are Uruk-Hai Half Orcs or no? (Uruk means Orc, and Hai means Man)
@@Just_Some_Average_Hobbit There are two types of half-orcs. The first type is encountered at Bree, the squint-eyed southerner who is more man than orc. The second is the Uruk Hai, a larger, more intelligent breed that looks more like an orc.
@@Just_Some_Average_Hobbit Uruk-hai does not mean "orc-men" Hai does not mean men it means "folk" Uruk-hai means "orc-folk"
The "Meat on the menu" moment is where PJ could let his love for horror peek out. Made me LOL when it happened.
That line was used as an opener in a few death metal songs from my youth lmfao
I ain't had nothing to eat but maggoty bread for three Stinking days!
If you look at the scuffle after he says that you can clearly see orc guts flying up into the air
I can imagine an unwritten scene where Marry and Pippen try to convince Grishnack that the Lambas bread in their pockets is a elven biological weapon agains orcs.
💀
It'll try to choke them 😂
If they ever do another remake I need that scene man. Shit I’ll resort to fanfic if I need to
Given the orcs' distaste for anything elvish, that might not be so far off...
If not, they could still eat too much, with only a small bite being needed to fill anyone but a Hobbit's stomach.
Lugburz is not an outpost, "Lugbúrz is the Black Speech name for Barad-dûr, a fictional fortress in J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth writings, and is located in northwest Mordor, near Mount Doom"
Beat me to it.
@richardthomas5362 you beat me in beating you to tell him he beat me to it
This makes it a bit confusing to me.
@@Rokiriko Lugburz is Barad Dur , that's confusing?
It never made sense Ugluk would say "Meat's back on the menu Boys" because how would Uruk-hai or Orcs know what a Restaurant is much less a Menu is?
Taverns? They have crappy camps but did they ever try mimicking taverns in permanent settlements? Like Mordor or even places like goblintown before they were called to war?
Its well known that Ugluk has already opened a chain of highly successful restaurants throughout Middle Earth by this point.
@@Dookieman1975 Are you telling me that Uruk-hai and Orcs are literate? I have got to see a scene with baby Orcs and Goblins sitting in class learning their ABC's. I can't get this image out of my head now.
There is a very nice five-star rooftop restaurant in Mordor named the "Eye of Sauron." But it requires reservations. One does not simply walk in...
Amazon's ROP Season 1: Orcs are like vampires, they get burned by sunlight
Amazon's ROP Season 2: Orcs are now immune to sunlight
I guess somebody forgot about that in the production room.
Thats the difference between Orcs and Uruk-Hai. They did a whole big reveal for this. It wasn't an oversight
Why do you bring up sheit, when we talk about gold? 😁
@@EoghanGriffin Those with Adar are orcs, never stated as Uruk-hai.
Unless Adar can conjure them like Saruman and Sauron can, then maybe I'll believe it.
I like both ideas but wtf? Do they at least explain that they’re different breeds and have different attributes or something?
As a fan of the books (also having read the Silmarillion) this change doesn't bother me too much. The three biggest changes that always bothered me were the conflict between Sam & Frodo on the narrow path which never happened.
The lack of the appearance of other allies coming to protect Minas Tirth (other kingdoms of men did send soldiers, not just Rohan). Namely Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth. He brought a contingent of knights and was actually a significant character in the books.
But the most egregious and frankly outright bad change is the portrayal of Denethor. I could write an entire dissertation on everything wrong with Jackson's portrayal of Denethor. In the books Denethor is a much more sympathetic character. I think any book reader would agree book Denethor and movie Denethor are basically two entirely different characters.
I agree and I like book Denethor. They significantly dumbed down pretty much every character who wasn't especially singled out for their wisdom. Like Gimli for comic relief. Or to cause conflict like Theoden or especially Pippin. In the books Pippin is a smartass and doesn't come across as such a bungler at all.
I personally wish that Grishnak and Ugluk would have stayed true to Tolkiens version. Tolkien has Grishnak and the Orcs look smarter and less primitive than Peter Jackson and I prefer that version since it seems more realistic and makes for a better story in my opinion. I love Peter Jacksons version, but I think Tolkiens is better.
Lugburz is actually the orcish name for Barad-Dûr the Black Tower.
Interesting!
It's black speech, not orcish.
@@doma7956 Orcish, Black Speech, To-may-to, To-mah-to.
@@doma7956are they not the same?
@@Dookieman1975 Orcish is based on Black Speech, but heavily altered and split into so many dialects that Westron (the Common Tongue) is the lingua franca between different orc tribes.
After Grishnackh has been killed, a horseman is riding past the hobbits. The rider does not see Merry or Pippin, as you mention, but the horse either sees or via some sixth sense senses their presence and jumps over them to avoid harming them. I'm guessing that incident inspired Peter Jackson for the scene with the horse that almost steps on Pippin's face, but misses.
I think the horse could just smell them, and apparently destingush them from orcs.
Neeeeerrrrdddssss!
These are the best orcs put to film.
"They dont need their legs" hahaha
I have been enjoying this comparison series
Thanks for watching! 🙏🏼
Originally in the film, Snaga was meant to be stabbed rather than beheaded but on the day of shooting Peter Jackson, who likes gore and guts (hence why many of his earlier movies like Bad Taste, Meet the Feebles and Braindead/Dead Alive have gore in them, The Lord of the Rings because of the PG-13 rating have a lot less of it but with the black blood of the orcs and Uruks, he could get away more with that compared to human and animal blood, though they did make gore and guts for the filming in case he wanted to do an R-rated version one day and to see how much he could get away) he decided the orc to get his chopped off.This have been confirmed by Dominic Monaghan (Merry) and Billy Boyd (Pippin) in the actor's commentary.
On a side note, Grishnak is played by Shepthen Ure, who plays several orc characters throughout the trilogy including Gorbag in The Return of the King, though voiced by Jim Duncan. Snaga is played by Jed Brophy, who earlier in The Two Towers was the Rohirrim who found Théodred and later in the movie he plays Sharku the Warg Rider leader and in The Hobbit trilogy he played Nori the dwarf plus he played Void in Braindead/Dead Alive and as a Venture Crewmember in King Kong.
Andy Serkis (Gollum) voiced The Maggoty eaten-bread Uruk, Snaga and Ugluk.
I thought Nathaniel Lees (The guy who played Ugluk) Voiced him lol
The bit with suggesting to eat the hobbits' legs because they don't need them was funny but I'd much rather see the menacing Grishnakh of the books, with the voice softer but more evil. The movie orcs are depicted as part comic relief, part simple-minded brutes, they don't evoke fear in the way that the original Grishnakh would, which is a pity. And again, we are robbed of Pippin's quick and brave thinking in a very dangerous situation - what a pity again.
Rob Inglis with the Recorded Books version did a great job of voicing Grishnakh in the way you mentioned.
I didn't mind Jacksons changes.
I can't imagine the difficulty of adapting hundreds of thousands of words into just a few hours on camera.
There is so much they filmed that never even came close to making the Final Cut. From what I understand Jackson was willing to film anything and they ended up with a ridiculous amount of stuff. I give Jackson props because he was talented enough to realize what was gonna work and what they needed to massage to make it a movie the masses would go see.
@@TheBizziniss Exactly. It was not an easy task to translate the books to the screen. Some changes were pretty good. Some not so much. Overall it was pretty good. My biggest grief is Legolas and Gimli. Kind of hate it.
I like the Orcs. Jackson did an excellent job here.
I don't mind either. And although I know Jackson's trilogy and RoP is not comparable at all in overall quality, I do find it interesting just what a complete pass the former gets on even the major and bad changes, while people freak the f*ck out over the tiniet detail of RoP. I get the feeling that a lot of "Tolkien experts" online are actually just movie fans, and have not even read Tolkien's book. Orcs is a great example! RoP's orcs are much truer to the real Tolkien orcs than Jackson's zombie orcs, so a "real" Tolkien fan would not have freaked out over seeing a female and child orc.
@@TheSaltyAdmiralAgreed.
The one thing for Jacksons changes is that most of them were fairly minor and more focused(movie vs. series limitations). RoP changed a massive amount of lore when they didn't need to.
I'm not saying to not like it, though! You do you!
I'm personally a fan of a lot of Uwe Bolls movies... >_>
The salt must flow!
(Apologies for multiple replies. TH-cam mobile is garbage at times.)
@@MrNoucfeanor Yes, people are angry because they ran amok with the source material, and then they see everything as bad.
The way I look at it is like this: I'm a huge fan of D.C comics(not the movies), but that universe has lots of great and crazy non-canon stories. One of my favorite is Superman, Red Son. In this comic Superman landed in Soviet Russia instead of America, and becomes somewhat of a puppet of Stalin/the state, at least for a while. I love that they make insane non-canon stories like that.
And that is how I enjoy RoP, as a non-canon story in Tolkien's universe, where everything is a little different :)
the Uruk-hai chapters are some of my favourites in the books!
I love this series. Your straightforward presentation combined with your cinematic elements are sublime. As a voracious Tolkien reader myself, every time you post a new weekly LOTR MvM video, I feel like I’m sitting in an old, yet familiarly comfortable, armchair that I haven’t seen in years.
Thanks for your support! Glad to have you in the community. 🙏🏼
I do own a Grishnákh action figure.
But I do remember in the video game War of the Ring, which didn't have many characters from Lord of the Rings in it, that Grishnákh was one of the playable evil heroes, and one Evil mission has Grishnákh destroying the Warning beacons of Gondor.
That’s awesome!
This series has been so fun. My mother was a huge Tolkien fan so I started reading the books very early on when the Rankin/Bass and then Bakshi versions of The Hobbit and LotR came out in the 70s. I read them all many times when I was young so when the Jackson movies came out I of course spotted almost every little change he had made. It has been a while since I read the books though and I have watched the Jackson movies many times so now I've started to forget some of the changes. It has been really fun following along and being reminded. I should probably read the books again soon.
Yup. These videos have too reminded me that it´s about time to read the books again. Of course I´ll still be watching the trilogy at Yule Tide. Again.
I was a bit disappointed with Grishnákh in the movie. He has some great lines in the books indeed. And these Captains were not dumb. I really like this part in the books because it give great insight of Orc life. Jackson got that somewhat right. And they sure do look extremely good in the movies.
The cheesiness of Legolas after this giving the "red sky in the morning, shepherd's warning"-like line
Oh, Legolas is a fountain of slap-you-in-the-forehead obvious pseudo-wise one-liners. Cracks me up every time I re-watch the series. But it establishes his "elvishness," i suppose.
@@danvol3835 Legolas and Gimli are the biggest offenders in the movies. In general the audience who watched the movies before reading the books like it. And the Orcs look great.
I would have loved to see Grishnack still be loyal to Mordor and change the final confrontation at Fangorn to him asking to turn around and go to Mordor instead of Isengard. You could still have the grey ork come up and try to eat the hobbits and still have the “meat back on the menu” moment. But without sacrificing Grishnack.
the PJ movies have it so that all the orcs are from Isenguard. So him going back to Mordor makes no sense.
I don't mind the changes this week. But I'm really looking forward to next weeks episode. I would have loved to have Gimlis disagreement with Eomer concerning the "Lady of the Golden Wood" in the movie. Was missing that horribly.
Compared to Rings Of Power, Jackson's version is a masterpiece. ROP is what happens when activists, instead of artists, tackle Tolkien.
Exactly. What's hilarious is that the fans of that garbage think of themselves as the "real fans" of tolkiens works.
Peter Jackson is not a faithful adapter of Tolkien. He never was and he never will be.
@@tevildo45 lol
It’s not activists, it’s corporate opportunists trying to score some culture points and generate broader appeal. It’s dumb, but it’s not some nefarious agenda, just suits trying to make more money.
You have to be willfully ignorant to belive this.
Great video!
Did PJ ever explain why he made the goblins in Moria able to climb walls like spiders but then lost this ability outside of Moria?
OK, considering the Rings of Power, Peter Jackson is a great, a really great director and producer. Producing exactly Tolkien's work is really hard. But 1. why did Aragorn need to become a weakling? And 2. Eomer a dumb blonde? They're nothing like that in the books, they're simply just and moral heroes that get an instant connection to eachother. The actors are great, it isn't their fault. Aragorn should have been a stubborn fatalist, Eomer should have been a sharp person that sees through any lie immediately, not an unkempt resentful blonde.
As amusing as the menu comment is, I am horrified by the act of cannibalism. Even orcs know that's gross, and the Uruk-hai and other orcs came to blows over the mere suggestion.
*************
‘Aye, we must stick together,’ growled Uglúk. ‘I don’t trust you little swine. You’ve no guts outside your own sties. But for us you’d all have run away. We are the fighting Uruk-hai! We slew the great warrior. We took the prisoners. We are the servants of Saruman the Wise, the White Hand: the Hand that gives us man’s-flesh to eat. We came out of Isengard, and led you here, and we shall lead you back by the way we choose. I am Uglúk. I have spoken.’
‘You have spoken more than enough, Uglúk,’ sneered the evil voice. ‘I wonder how they would like it in Lugbúrz .... Saruman is a fool, and a dirty treacherous fool. But the Great Eye is on him.
‘Swine is it? How do you folk like being called swine by the muck-rakers of a dirty little wizard? It’s orc-flesh they eat, I’ll warrant.’ Many loud yells in orc-speech answered him, and the ringing clash of weapons being drawn.
_-The Uruk-hai_
It's still impressive that the Hunting Party ran 135 miles over 3 days, but I have to remind folks that they did have Lembas to help them.
Wow even David Goggins would be impressed…
Saruman's White Tower = the Ivory Tower / Academia.
Once upon a time, universities were a pillar for good in an enlightened society. Nowadays, universities churn out industrial quantities of indoctrinated, half-human orcs. I say this as somebody who received his degree back in 2007 (and things weren't ideal back then, either). The solution for our universities is the same as for Isengard in Lord of the Rings.
These are so well made and super enjoyable!! I always watch these when I'm writing my own book
Sadly this series ends someday😭
Still makes for one of the most memorable movie moments of the entire trilogy. Sometimes straying from the books pays off. 😂
Am enjoying this series very much!
Glad you’re enjoying it! Thanks for supporting ♥️
The only change that really makes no sense is that the orcs stop at the edge of Fangorn instead of running into the safety of the trees. The riders HAVE to cut them off for the scene to be believable.
true
Orcs fear & hate Ents & vice versa & sense their in the forest which is why they wisely avoided hiding there...
I loved seeing Aragon doing Ranger stuff.
I do think the changes are made to condense the story into a 3-4 hour length movie.
If so, then why did Jackson then significantly extend the ride to Helm's Deep & the meeting with Faramir and subsequent journey to Osgiliath? Those two sets of scenes alone add around 40-45 minutes to the film, despite them not being in the books.
@@TheMarcHicks that was most likely so they can convey information to the characters and also help get from point A- point B.
@@reeceemms1643 yet Faramir never took Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath, that was purely an unneccessary addition by Jackson. Same with the Warg attack en route to Helms Deep. If Jackson couldn'f properly portray these journeys without resorting to the addition of almost an hour of extra material, then he can't be much of a film-maker. A better explanation is that the success of Fellowship went to his head, and he got ridiculously self-indulgent in Two Towers-cutting out Tolkien's material simply to make room for his own "fanfic" material.
@@TheMarcHicks All Lord of the Rings movies were shot simutaniously, so there was no successs of the Fellowship during the filming of Two Towers xD
Know what ENTs REALLY hate? Knock-knock jokes.
I'm curious to see how the scene of the riders hunting and encamping around the uruks would play out in a film; the suspense and uneasy calm rather than the sudden action scene we are used to seeing in most movies. I wonder would it be exciting or boring in the different medium?
Orcs should be eternally grateful to Peter Jackson, as he brought menus to Mordor 🌈
Well, just as a side note: no sane or even remotly sane warrior would go for an attack on horse at night. Maybe in the desert but absolutely noone would do that at night.
And there is no such thing as a surprise attack at night with full plate people on horse.
Eating them is implicit throughout these scenes in the book. Thats why they want to kill them, and that's what starts the argument between the Or factions. Its literally stated how Saruman keeps his orcs supplied with "man-meat" in the opening to the scene, and its also mentioned that Orcs eat Orcs here.
Its pretty faithful, and the minor changes are what youd expect for the pacing of a movie. Theres certainly no "plot" changes here.
In the book, their feet are only bound initially, then their leg bindings are cut so they dont have to be carried.
I love me some intelligent-to-the-point-of-sinister orcs/goblins. Comic relief brutes are fun, but plenty of humans are brutes too. Orc soldiers should be brutes, not because they're orcs, but because they're soldiers, amplified because of a strict army hierarchy based on fear and perhaps a touch of corruption, both from the magic of Sauron and from the orcs' origin as a twisted mockery or imitation of elves. On orc-nature, orcs are routinely referred to and seen as goblins by Tolkien in the Hobbit, and goblins are traditionally overwhelmingly seen as wily tricksters, powerful in the ways of magic and quite intelligent.
As far as liking Peter Jackson versions of scenes - I think the only fair way to judge his work is by considering the medium he worked on, film as compared to literature, and in that light I think he did well.
He represented Tolkien's work fairly in a way that does not undermine it and invites the audience who is interested in more to read the book.
What more can you ask for in 9-12 hours?
Ngl, I prefer the movie scene than the one in the book. It just gives them more personality and almost humanizes them while enforcing how violent, animalistic, callous and almost frat boyish they are and honestly makes a bit more sense than wanting to torture the hobbits but I did forget if it was for getting info which makes perfect sense to torture them
I did tried to imagine the book version of the scene with movie's actors and now I kinda wish it would be like in the book.
And btw, in the movie Merry and Pippin are also bound on wrists and ankles. You can see the thick ropes around their ankles in some of the wide shots (ex 6:13). Which is also why they crawled up until they got rid of the ropes, instead of running.
Excellent analysis!
I like the idea that orcs, the most vile of creatures, are actually capable of resisting the ring and only fail the price of their own failure.
It has a interesting implication and arguably fits with a Christian concept of what it means to he spiritually strong.
Once again, I have no complaints whatsoever with how Jackson handled this. The book tended to drag on from a movie point of view, so Jackson compressed it. That's what adaptations do. If anything I do lament the fact that the different groups of uruks were not differentiated since I _like_ the political dynamics of fictional worlds, but that belongs in the books, not the movies.
In the movie their legs are also tied. It's visible when they crawl away. Now, when they got themselves free, I believe we only see they remove ropes from their hands, but that's just a continuity error.
I've read the books, I love the books.
I also love the movies and I don't fault the creators for combining and changing a few things in regards to these events. Also, it gave us the "meats back on the menu, boys!" scene which is timeless!
I put this in The Running Man category; different from the book but I love it just the same
I love it! I found your channel by accident and I'm glad I did! I look forward to the next episode! Keep up the great work! 🫡
Legend 🙏🏼 thanks for watching!
I do like the idea of giving the orcs more personality; interpersonal relations, betrayals, etc. Book version of Grishnak sounds great.
As much as this might sound odd to some, it is one of the reasons I'm enjoying the Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor/War games, as they give a lot more personality to the forces of Mordor, rather than just having them as some force for evil
Meat is definitely back on the menu. Love the channel.
I think once you're done it'll be fun to do a recap and list the total number of changes. And how many you think we're okay.
And which ones.
Oh yea I have several recap videos planned at the end of this series. Although it might be another year or two before it’s done! 😂
Eomer is the best character in the movies, not counting members of the fellowship. Hands down.
(Yes, I may be a big Carl Urban fan, but that's beside the point. I had the same opinion back when I first saw the movies, long before he kicked ass in Judge Dredd, Almost Human (an awesome, yet sadly short-lived, sci-fi series), and of course, The Boys.)
Although different from the book, I still love this scene.
his inteitons were even more sinister than trying to literally eat them? welp this is gonna be a fun watch....
Another major change you didn't mention was that Grishnakh and the Mordor orcs were not just orcs, they were altered to be bigger and stronger than regular orcs, similar to apes. Sauruman improved his orcs by mating them with men. Sauron improved them by changing them on a genetic level.
13:20 "Still following orders and not wanting to take ring for himself." he never was exposed to the influence of the ring. Maybe if he was he would want to take it for himself.
There is a guy named Charlie Hopkins whose an impressionist that does a spot on Gandalf with a deep fake face and watches Lord or the Rings stuff in character and You should totally see if he would record a short video as Gandalf saying: *SUBSCRIBE YOU FOOLS!*
That would be great 😂
You're mispronouncing Éomer. The last syllable rhymes with "fur" or "mare".
The Uruk-Kai of Isengard was used to Saruman handing out the daily menus in the pits.
Can't wait for "Mauhúr and his lads."
like my comment on last weeks episode, the nuances between orc uruk hai and the hobbits removal was a mistake. the location change is an improvement honestly.
Peter Jackson didn't write the script on his own y'know
I’m fine with the changes he made. Book adaptations to the movie is always going to be difficult and you have make difficult choices of what to keep and what to cut.
I think where Jackson and his co-writers really succeeded was in keeping the spirit of the story even when they rearranged things, unlike a certain ill-fated imitation.
Totally agree. I still love the movies!
I am again, surprised by how many changes are made!
I always found it wierd how they wanted to get a fire going and start chopping away at living trees. that‘s not really how it works but it‘s very orcish
It would have been lovely to see more scenes with the orcs & hobbits. Alas, runtime...
To be fair i always thought they were goblins in the movies. (Being a warcraft player)
Fresh cut living trees don't burn on their own.
Peter Jackson would have done better by keeping to the books regarding the orcs. It would have made them more complicated, and exactly this conflict is not too hard to understand by any film viewer.
is would have been awesome to see the elven cloaks in action in this scene actually
For fellowship of the ring don’t get Andy Serkis on audible his voice is really deep and fatiguing but get him for the rest because Gollum makes it worth it.
meat is back on the menu is just a amazing scene
I understand that Orcs won't eat the Hobbit's way Bread because it was cooked by the Elves. I believe they find some on Merry or Pip or I mite be confusing Gollum with the Orcs
Exactly, all the fan boys like to act like Jackson’s work was 100% amazing and the best thing ever. Yet, they strained really far from the books as well.
Strayed not “strained”…we’re not talking about pasta here.
This is one of the few places where I actually don't prefer the book version. Both versions in this particular area have their own merits, although I do prefer that the book hobbits in general are depicted as far more competent than the film hobbits, with Sam being the only exception and staying about as cool in film as in writing.
I really couldn’t care, absolute masterpiece of a trilogy.
My answer to the final questions: yes and yes.
There's no enough dakka. That's the problem
Grishnack never wanted to eat merry and pippin in the film because they supposedly have to one ring
Or ugluk
New videos are back on the menu boys!
I wish for once someone would make a movie faithful to Tolkien's books, without the movie makers making up stuff or moving things around.
Thats impossible for a 2-3 hour Film. Possible for a series with 12-13 episodes, thats why RoP was such a waste of opportunity.
If you were happy to do a kind of art-film, sort of documentarian style versus a Hollywood piece, you could do it over several blocks, and get the singing and poetry front and centre.
If Fact or Fantasy can parse out what happened and describe it in a few minutes - PJ could have done so too, AND it would have been much better (audiences have never been as stupid as Hollywood always assumed).
PJ produced a very maimed version of LotR, in some ways outrageous... but compared to what Amazon has done (no surprises there either) PJ comes off as a saint/genius.
The ommitions are fine. The books are like ice cream with too many toppings. It's fine but just as yummy without all the extras.
Jackson got a lot of things wrong. Probably the biggest, is thinking orcs and goblins are different, when they're the very same thing. Goblins cannot climb walls like Spider-Man, and they are not as large as a man. Orcs/goblins are quite small. The Ukuk-hai are as large as a man, that's what really sets them apart. Whist I'm here, elves don't have pointed ears, either. There's no mention of pointed ears, in either Tolkien's work, or the Anglo-Saxon folklore, on which it's based. Which suggests, they don't have pointed ears, otherwise it would have been something worth mentioning.
Books are books, movie is totally different thing, I like movies more, Peter improved story a lot
@@aley211 Some people don't have a minds eye. That's a real thing. It explains why people like yourself prefer films. For people who can create vivid images in their mind as they read, books are on another level.
One is a book and the other is based on a book. Things change for times sake.
No way a hundred horses silently approached the Orcs.
Also what happened to their super orkish nose?
Great videos, thank you!!
Great video - I have bought second Uglúk figure - just realized he was blonde heh :D Also I always wondered why Orcs and Uruks drip blood from their mouth all the time apparently it is the coal the actors had to chew to be realistic according to Peter Jackson in appendices
They were all voiced by Ray Winston
I think they bollocked the gollum sound as well. When I read the book, I thought the sound was much more vocalised, and less croaky… just saying.
Didnt Krusty the Clown say something about Ugluk on The Simpsons?
I think Peter Jackson did a really good job, honestly it's one of the best adaptations I've ever seen. And I'm old enough to have seen a lot of books being massacred by being made into a movie.
I guess TH-cam like the response from complaining videos about Rings of power they making them for retro Jackson version too. The bombastic excuses era is now.
I believe the Orc that had his head chopped off was Snaga. Also, for some reason JRR Tolkien named two different Orcs Snaga. This one, and one that appears in book 6, chapter 1 of Return of the King. Not sure why this was done.
Makes total sense in a way. Many people have the same name. It is an illusion of Fantasy that each character has a unique name. But in a real world, there would be people with the same name alive at the same time. Like, « Philip » hahaha
I had the impression that "Snaga" are a breed of smaller orcs.
@@axelpalmen5025 Yeah, pretty much. Snaga means slave in Black Speech, and was apparently often used of smaller orcs. Larger orcs called themselves Uruk, Uruk-hai, both in Isengard and Mordor.
@@LuulitaCD I knew that, but thank you, for reminding me ;)
I wish people would just get OVER themselves about books vs. films. If you haven't made something as epic as PJ & NLC's trilogy (which few on the planet ever have), then it's fairly moot to nitpick over details that don't matter in the grand scheme. Further, there are *TONS* of places where what PJ, Fran, NLC, etc. did to *improve* Tolkien's storytelling worked wonders. There are many lines, shots, scenes, and so forth which weren't in the books at all, but most certainly LIFTED the storytelling to bigger and better places.
Meanwhile avoid Zon's abominable "Rings of Flour", and try supporting the work of independent creators.