@@jabruzzese369963 Solemnity prevents counters being placed on creatures, luminous broodmoth returns non-flying creatures and puts flying counter on it. Solemnity prevents that. Elas il-Kor is a legendary creature. When you have 2 legendary creatures in play with same name, you must choose one to keep, the other dies. Luminous broodmoth returns it to battlefield but cannot place a flying counter. You need to choose one to keep, other one dies. Luminous Broodmoth returns it to battlefield. Rinse and repeat. If I had a way to kill the Broodmoth, I would have won of the Elas il-Kor triggers, but I didn't. Broodmoth triggers went on the stack after Elas' triggers and were resolved before. -Due the timing and state based nature of the legend rule, I could not reorder the triggers.- EDIT: Now I think about it, I might have broken the loop by reordering the triggers.
"choose an opponent at random" means pick a player other than it's controller (or in a few formats their team mate). You make that choice as the ability is resolving.
Pole Position has had it's ruling updated so that so that it is now seen as the thing that is causing an infinite loop and it gets destroyed my game mechanics.
I have a question how would this play out if the “master breeder” was a token and you control a “the master multiplied” witch has a similar effect but with different wording “triaged abilities you control can’t course you to exile or sacrifice creature tokens you control” would the same loop happen?
You can only be forced to end a loop if the loop requires a player to make a decision on order to continue it. You won't be forced to intervene otherwise. 729.5: No player can be forced to perform an action that would end a loop other than actions called for by objects involved in the loop.
Slowplay isn't choosing actions that slow down the game ending. Slowplay is not taking actions. You can't make an active move that's slowplay. Slowplay would be thinking for 10 minutes to waste time. Actively passing priority isn't slowplay and in no situation will be.
It's going to trigger over and over and over again, each time the stack is empty. That's really the only line this video needs. Edit: To confirm, this isn't a criticism. I love these videos! I'm a huge fan.
I know that unbound infinite loops are a draw, but i think it should really be treated as a loss for whoever triggered it. If you force your board state to loop infinitely, then you should take the L
I'd argue this would be ruled on intent. If someone makes a deck and accidentally draws it like in this video, I agree. But if someone makes a deck with the sole goal of causing the glitch of a draw, they're actually the winner. At least in spirit. But like in chess, whoever is in the losing position, turning it into a draw, is the real winner. Rescued a bad situation.
If you must make a choice to maintain the loop, then you are eventually forced to make a different choice (to avoid stuff like basalt monolith from drawing the game on command), but if no one needs to make a choice to maintain it, you are not forced to intervene. 729.3: Sometimes a loop can be fragmented, meaning that each player involved in the loop performs an independent action that results in the same game state being reached multiple times. If that happens, the active player (or, if the active player is not involved in the loop, the first player in turn order who is involved) must then make a different game choice so the loop does not continue. Example: In a two-player game, the active player controls a creature with the ability "{0}: [This creature] gains flying," the nonactive player controls a permanent with the ability "{0}: Target creature loses flying," and nothing in the game cares how many times an ability has been activated. Say the active player activates his creature's ability, it resolves, then the nonactive player activates her permanent's ability targeting that creature, and it resolves. This returns the game to a game state it was at before. The active player must make a different game choice (in other words, anything other than activating that creature's ability again). The creature doesn't have flying. Note that the nonactive player could have prevented the fragmented loop simply by not activating her permanent's ability, in which case the creature would have had flying. The nonactive player always has the final choice and is therefore able to determine whether the creature has flying. 729.4: If a loop contains only mandatory actions, the game is a draw. (See rules 104.4b and 104.4f.) 729.5: No player can be forced to perform an action that would end a loop other than actions called for by objects involved in the loop.
Incorrect. If you're taking active game actions in a looping succession, like taping a creature to untap itself over and over, you're compelled to take other action. But if the loop is automatic, beyond active choice, you aren't compelled to end it. And the only option is a draw, the game cannot progress. The video is accurate.
"Well then...."
Nice loop!
Thanks!
Jon Irenicus can cause this loop so easily it's hilarious
Gotta be careful with that one!
@Danslam_ had to take the deck I built with him apart, due to complaints. Most games ended in a draw >_>
So your Jon deck worked. Jon doesn't want to win, he wants friendship
Bronze Bombshell
Got to see this happen a lot when Amalia was still legal in pioneer. I do not miss it.
Last endless loop I caused was with solemnity, luminous broodmoth and a second elas il-kor with no way to stop the loop.
That doesn’t cause a loop?
@@jabruzzese369963 Solemnity prevents counters being placed on creatures, luminous broodmoth returns non-flying creatures and puts flying counter on it. Solemnity prevents that. Elas il-Kor is a legendary creature. When you have 2 legendary creatures in play with same name, you must choose one to keep, the other dies. Luminous broodmoth returns it to battlefield but cannot place a flying counter. You need to choose one to keep, other one dies. Luminous Broodmoth returns it to battlefield. Rinse and repeat. If I had a way to kill the Broodmoth, I would have won of the Elas il-Kor triggers, but I didn't. Broodmoth triggers went on the stack after Elas' triggers and were resolved before. -Due the timing and state based nature of the legend rule, I could not reorder the triggers.-
EDIT: Now I think about it, I might have broken the loop by reordering the triggers.
@@sutechYou could definitely stack it so that Elas's drain resolves before Broodmoth brings the other back.
Having a "cannot lose" effect when an opponent puts 20 counters on a [[Darksteel Reactor]] does the same thing.
Or 10 poison counters/+21 commander damage with an opponent's Lich's Mirror
*opponents can't win
If I give equip an Indoraptor, the Perfect Hybrid with Assault Suit. When it changes controllers does it then change opponents?
"choose an opponent at random" means pick a player other than it's controller (or in a few formats their team mate). You make that choice as the ability is resolving.
Assault suit, Wolverine? Lol
Aye thanks for telling me now I know for my next lgs buckle up everybody else
For yugioh players, we hate Pole Position
Pole Position has had it's ruling updated so that so that it is now seen as the thing that is causing an infinite loop and it gets destroyed my game mechanics.
I have a question how would this play out if the “master breeder” was a token and you control a “the master multiplied” witch has a similar effect but with different wording “triaged abilities you control can’t course you to exile or sacrifice creature tokens you control” would the same loop happen?
Yes. Endrek Sahr's ability is a state based trigger so it would have no effect if you control The Master Multiplied.
Now i want to make a deck that is designed to make it a draw
Jon Irenicus is arguably the funnier version of that deck. Lot of ways to cause this loop and has blue for play protection.
@alexgurwell42 Enlightened me
If an opponent could end a loop, and chooses not to and forces the game into a stalemate, couldn't you call a judge for slowplay?
No, that'd be forcing a loss
He passed priority, so he’s not slow playing
Stalemates aren't against the rules and they aren't slowplay since the game didn't go on forever it just immediately ends
You can only be forced to end a loop if the loop requires a player to make a decision on order to continue it. You won't be forced to intervene otherwise.
729.5: No player can be forced to perform an action that would end a loop other than actions called for by objects involved in the loop.
Slowplay isn't choosing actions that slow down the game ending. Slowplay is not taking actions.
You can't make an active move that's slowplay. Slowplay would be thinking for 10 minutes to waste time. Actively passing priority isn't slowplay and in no situation will be.
War eagle 🐯🦅
Roll tide
It's going to trigger over and over and over again, each time the stack is empty.
That's really the only line this video needs.
Edit: To confirm, this isn't a criticism. I love these videos! I'm a huge fan.
Thank you!
I know that unbound infinite loops are a draw, but i think it should really be treated as a loss for whoever triggered it. If you force your board state to loop infinitely, then you should take the L
I'd argue this would be ruled on intent. If someone makes a deck and accidentally draws it like in this video, I agree. But if someone makes a deck with the sole goal of causing the glitch of a draw, they're actually the winner. At least in spirit.
But like in chess, whoever is in the losing position, turning it into a draw, is the real winner. Rescued a bad situation.
If you target me with a Stuffy Doll then cast Grapeshot targeting it and I flash in a Pariah attached to it which one of us should lose?
This is when magic players use there most important tool… Gaslighting
I thought in a tournament setting if there is a way to break an infinite loop on board, it must be done to avoid locking up a game?
If you must make a choice to maintain the loop, then you are eventually forced to make a different choice (to avoid stuff like basalt monolith from drawing the game on command), but if no one needs to make a choice to maintain it, you are not forced to intervene.
729.3: Sometimes a loop can be fragmented, meaning that each player involved in the loop performs an independent action that results in the same game state being reached multiple times. If that happens, the active player (or, if the active player is not involved in the loop, the first player in turn order who is involved) must then make a different game choice so the loop does not continue.
Example: In a two-player game, the active player controls a creature with the ability "{0}: [This creature] gains flying," the nonactive player controls a permanent with the ability "{0}: Target creature loses flying," and nothing in the game cares how many times an ability has been activated. Say the active player activates his creature's ability, it resolves, then the nonactive player activates her permanent's ability targeting that creature, and it resolves. This returns the game to a game state it was at before. The active player must make a different game choice (in other words, anything other than activating that creature's ability again). The creature doesn't have flying. Note that the nonactive player could have prevented the fragmented loop simply by not activating her permanent's ability, in which case the creature would have had flying. The nonactive player always has the final choice and is therefore able to determine whether the creature has flying.
729.4: If a loop contains only mandatory actions, the game is a draw. (See rules 104.4b and 104.4f.)
729.5: No player can be forced to perform an action that would end a loop other than actions called for by objects involved in the loop.
You don't have to stop a loop, you just can't make active game actions to prologue a loop.
Actually you arent forced to end the loop but because there is a valid way to end the loop it isnt auto draw
If no one wants to end it then it is.
Incorrect.
If you're taking active game actions in a looping succession, like taping a creature to untap itself over and over, you're compelled to take other action. But if the loop is automatic, beyond active choice, you aren't compelled to end it. And the only option is a draw, the game cannot progress.
The video is accurate.