I think simplified concepts of mountain bike suspension can sufficiently help us understand the behavior of a running shoe, as it is the same physics, just different materials. In mountain biking: Travel: the total distance a suspension system can compress ( = stack height in running shoes) Sag Percentage: the starting point of suspension, referring to the percentage of available travel used in a static position, simply by sitting on the bike ( = standing in shoes and is determined by starting material) Compression Dampening: a suspension setting which controls how easily the suspension compresses under load. Fully dampened = stiff, takes the greatest amount of force to use travel. Fully open = plush, least amount of force required to use travel. ( = softness in running) Rebound dampening: a suspension setting which controls how quickly the system rebounds back to fully extended position. Fully dampened = returns at the slowest speed possible. No dampening, or fully open = returns at the fastest speed possible ( = propulsion or responsiveness in running shoes). Important to note: Travel behavior isn’t always linear. The greater amount that the suspension compresses the faster the suspension may rebound. Thus, using 80% of suspension travel, with 20% left to use, will generate a greater force while at the lower end (20% left) than at the higher end of the travel. This may be similar to the effects a heavier runner may have on a shoe, as well as a lighter. Thus, either setting affects the other. A highly dampened suspension does not necessarily need a fully open rebound setting. A fully open compression setting (very plush) may need to be accompanied by a quicker rebound setting so that the suspension system can rebound before a successive hit (foot strike in running) occurs, causing the suspension system to bottom out. Sag also determines the behavior of compression and rebound down the line. Changing sag changes the others inevitably When riding, it’s best to only change one setting at a time because changing two settings at once can obscure what caused the change in behavior making it harder to make any conclusions at all regarding what needs to be refined to achieve optimal results.
I am 💯 vindicated by this episode......I work in a running store and debate these descriptions with our staff.....I strongly agree with your assessment on the shoes I've had on....... (7 out of 10)
For me softness is how the foam reacts rather than the texture. Subjective so no one will care but this is what i found - Magic Speed 3- Soft to walk in but Very Firm to run in - Tempo (short distance) - Hard to run in when tired Metaspeed Edge+ - Soft to walk in but Very Firm to run in - Tempo (long distance) Noosa Tri 13/14 - Soft to walk in but Medium to Firm to run in - Easy to Tempo (short distance) Glideride 3 - Soft to walk in but Medium Softness to run in - Easy to Tempo (long distance) Brooks Hyperion Max - Soft to walk in but Medium Softness to run in - Easy to Tempo (medium distance) Novablast 3 - Very Soft to walk in Very Soft to run in - Easy Day Shoe - Hard to run in when tired
Agree with the novablast 4 @18:20 ran the rose bowl half marathon with a pair straight out of the box. Relative to novablast 3, the ease with which the foam compresses is dampened (ie: stiffened) and the rebound speed is slightly decreased. This makes for a more stable ride, if not less exciting as others have pointed out. No regrets on my pick btw. Beat my target speed of 8:45 min/mile by 3 seconds, and felt great afterward
I'm a lightweight with many issues, including two wrecked knees and then some. I recently tried the More V4 after doing a few hours of research, also trying on many different shoes. Very comfortable cushioning. I found them to be remarkable stable. I also found that the rockered geometry did not annoy me in the way it does on say the nimbus or other shoes which are clearly a lot stiffer. Honestly I can hardly notice the rocker. I also tried with 1080v13, which i loved for it's cush and additional plushness, however the midsole in the heel is so compliant, if that's the term, it compresses so much, not even in movement but just when standing around that I feel certain that the shoe goes into negative drop, which feels like it's hyperextending my knee or about to. Folks always talk about zero drop shoes potentially going negative, but I have never noticed this with any Altras, and I also have the Via Olympus 2. Another great shoe, not quite as compliant as the more, still very stable, but is a very stiff shoe, even more than the Nimbus believe it or not, where you can't not notice that late stage toe rocker which the shoe clearly needs because of how stiff it is. Something like the More V4, if they made the upper in terms of the heel and tongue more plush, and made the shoe a bit less clunky, would basically be an ideal everyday shoe for me. I like shoes with very soft compliant cushioning, a stable geometry, minimal drop, flexible without a rocker and ofc a plush feel. But ofc they have to fit right. The Nimbus 26 I liked but I can't get it to fit right even sizing up and using the widest width they make. They are too narrow and too shallow for me.
Love this episode, definitely great to hear others opinions on softness which definitely contributes to my purchases. Where would you put the Hoka Mach X on this list?
Great episode. Switched from the Bondi 8 to Clifton 9 a month ago. I thought the Clifton 9 would be a soft shoe having had the Clifton 7 a few years ago. Noticeable difference and it's a bit too firm for me. I have developed some heel pain due to it I think. Great episode
Have tried many Max shoes including the Bondi and Invincible Clifton ect and the More V 4 wins for softness for me too.I do nearly all my long and easy runs in it.Its also quite stable on tarmac and well packed trails.The Bondi is good and has loads of cushion but its not soft.Liked the invincible for softness although not as soft as the more V4 but they ruined the shoe with the version 3.
On board with most of these. I don't find the Surfer or the vomero as that soft while running but I'm also not a graceful runner so I chalked it up to just landing hard and bottoming it out. Would be interested to see Andreas list
I do agree with you all on almost everything, but to me the more v4 is more dense than soft so on this one i'm with Andrea. The fuelcell is the softer compound, i do love the elite v3 😊
I agree with your views of Powerrun+ My only experience in it is in the Triumph 17, which I didn’t like much for running and still use for work. I have wondered about trying it again after all the great reviews of the 21. I know there’s more stack and a better upper, but pretty sure I would have a similar experience.
I have a Bondi 8 as a daily trainer, and had an opportunity to step in a 1080v13, so didn't really ran on one. Comparing the 1080v13 to the Bondi 8, the 1080 makes the Bondi feel like you're walking on bricks, the 1080v13 is just that soft.
To the whole group of DOR: what's the closest zero drop or closest to zero drop from the known brands add any if you'd like guys. So from Altra, Topo, etc that would be closest to your number #1 pick? I ran in the Superblast and have under 20miles and legs felt great and even better after the run and tried the New Balance 1080v13 for walking in it after the run. Also could you do the same for zero or close to zero drop shoes? I enjoyed
I totally cannot understand how the More v4 is the softest. It feels on the firmer side for me (70kg). I think softness is a hard topic to talk about. For example, I would say that ZoomX and FFBlast+ are very soft in the very first few minutes that I put in on. But when I start running, the bounce make them feel less soft as I pick up the pace. The opposite is true for PWRRUN PB and Floatride. They are very firm at first but softens up during the run.
I’m not sure I agree that NB fuelcell is always soft, as they have also put it in some casual shoes like the WRPD Runner, which feels much firmer, but interestingly I feel it might suit me for actual running as it seems super responsive whenever I’ve done a slight jog when in a hurry. On a separate note, I wonder how perceptions change with body weight, just as the loading changes between walking and running, and at different speeds. I’m on the heavier side of things, and the 1080v13 just feels crazily unstable for example. Certainly responsiveness I expect would be perceived differently with the different loading.
Never tried any brooks. So the firmer shoes that i’ve tried are Clifton 9 and triumph 20/21. Never tried running on them but just from the step in feels, I really don’t understand why people likes them, as to me it doesn’t feel anything special. Even mach 5 and mach x are not really special to me.
Great video! New runner question. I am new to running (36 years old and started running 6 months ago) and currently going through my first training block for my first marathon in late Feb. and I am running slow, goal sub 4:00 marathon so not breaking records here. I have been running in Endorphin Speed 3 which I have loved for 90% of my runs. I have the Nimbus 25 but don't like them very much. Love walking in them, but not in running. Now that I am into 16/18/20 mile long runs for my training, my legs are really sore for the last 5+ miles and hard to finish the run. Considering I need to go 26 miles, do you have a recommendation for a good shoe that would be better for my legs in the marathon but able to maintain 8:58/mile or is shoe not the problem and I need more training to endure that distance? I appreciate your thoughts!
Could the body type(distribution of weight across the body) affect the perceptin of softness? Think Bulky Guy vs say a light weight female runner based vs say triathlete? Or it could be a simple fact that Dr. Andrea is lighter so it wouldn’t feel as soft to say a heavier runner?(more v4)
Hello doctors, i am an oncologist in France, flat feet, chronic ankle pain after trying altra, achilis issue. So switched, i likeArahi line and recently puma deviate nitro2. I think you may make video on all rounders for heavy weight runners. More V4 is awesome but feel heavy like after 10km line. Thanks
Try the Hoka Gaviota if you like Hokas. This is a hidden gem that no one seems to talk about. It's not their cheapest shoe by any means but imo it's the best one they make. I also love the More V4 btw and agree that they are clunky but otherwise exceptional. I think you will like the Gaviota. Altras are hit and miss, there is a lot of variance between the models so it really depends on which one you tried and you never said,
@@jeffhicks8428 thanks tried them once , feels like rather a walking shoes, but that was the Gaviota 3, may be next generations became more nimble. I think also the brooks glycerin is a good shot
I think simplified concepts of mountain bike suspension can sufficiently help us understand the behavior of a running shoe, as it is the same physics, just different materials.
In mountain biking:
Travel: the total distance a suspension system can compress ( = stack height in running shoes)
Sag Percentage: the starting point of suspension, referring to the percentage of available travel used in a static position, simply by sitting on the bike ( = standing in shoes and is determined by starting material)
Compression Dampening: a suspension setting which controls how easily the suspension compresses under load. Fully dampened = stiff, takes the greatest amount of force to use travel. Fully open = plush, least amount of force required to use travel. ( = softness in running)
Rebound dampening: a suspension setting which controls how quickly the system rebounds back to fully extended position. Fully dampened = returns at the slowest speed possible. No dampening, or fully open = returns at the fastest speed possible ( = propulsion or responsiveness in running shoes).
Important to note: Travel behavior isn’t always linear. The greater amount that the suspension compresses the faster the suspension may rebound. Thus, using 80% of suspension travel, with 20% left to use, will generate a greater force while at the lower end (20% left) than at the higher end of the travel. This may be similar to the effects a heavier runner may have on a shoe, as well as a lighter. Thus, either setting affects the other. A highly dampened suspension does not necessarily need a fully open rebound setting. A fully open compression setting (very plush) may need to be accompanied by a quicker rebound setting so that the suspension system can rebound before a successive hit (foot strike in running) occurs, causing the suspension system to bottom out.
Sag also determines the behavior of compression and rebound down the line. Changing sag changes the others inevitably
When riding, it’s best to only change one setting at a time because changing two settings at once can obscure what caused the change in behavior making it harder to make any conclusions at all regarding what needs to be refined to achieve optimal results.
I am 💯 vindicated by this episode......I work in a running store and debate these descriptions with our staff.....I strongly agree with your assessment on the shoes I've had on....... (7 out of 10)
For me softness is how the foam reacts rather than the texture. Subjective so no one will care but this is what i found - Magic Speed 3- Soft to walk in but Very Firm to run in - Tempo (short distance) - Hard to run in when tired
Metaspeed Edge+ - Soft to walk in but Very Firm to run in - Tempo (long distance)
Noosa Tri 13/14 - Soft to walk in but Medium to Firm to run in - Easy to Tempo (short distance)
Glideride 3 - Soft to walk in but Medium Softness to run in - Easy to Tempo (long distance)
Brooks Hyperion Max - Soft to walk in but Medium Softness to run in - Easy to Tempo (medium distance)
Novablast 3 - Very Soft to walk in Very Soft to run in - Easy Day Shoe - Hard to run in when tired
Agree with the novablast 4 @18:20 ran the rose bowl half marathon with a pair straight out of the box. Relative to novablast 3, the ease with which the foam compresses is dampened (ie: stiffened) and the rebound speed is slightly decreased. This makes for a more stable ride, if not less exciting as others have pointed out. No regrets on my pick btw. Beat my target speed of 8:45 min/mile by 3 seconds, and felt great afterward
I'm a lightweight with many issues, including two wrecked knees and then some. I recently tried the More V4 after doing a few hours of research, also trying on many different shoes. Very comfortable cushioning. I found them to be remarkable stable. I also found that the rockered geometry did not annoy me in the way it does on say the nimbus or other shoes which are clearly a lot stiffer. Honestly I can hardly notice the rocker. I also tried with 1080v13, which i loved for it's cush and additional plushness, however the midsole in the heel is so compliant, if that's the term, it compresses so much, not even in movement but just when standing around that I feel certain that the shoe goes into negative drop, which feels like it's hyperextending my knee or about to. Folks always talk about zero drop shoes potentially going negative, but I have never noticed this with any Altras, and I also have the Via Olympus 2. Another great shoe, not quite as compliant as the more, still very stable, but is a very stiff shoe, even more than the Nimbus believe it or not, where you can't not notice that late stage toe rocker which the shoe clearly needs because of how stiff it is. Something like the More V4, if they made the upper in terms of the heel and tongue more plush, and made the shoe a bit less clunky, would basically be an ideal everyday shoe for me. I like shoes with very soft compliant cushioning, a stable geometry, minimal drop, flexible without a rocker and ofc a plush feel. But ofc they have to fit right. The Nimbus 26 I liked but I can't get it to fit right even sizing up and using the widest width they make. They are too narrow and too shallow for me.
Love this episode, definitely great to hear others opinions on softness which definitely contributes to my purchases. Where would you put the Hoka Mach X on this list?
Great episode. Switched from the Bondi 8 to Clifton 9 a month ago. I thought the Clifton 9 would be a soft shoe having had the Clifton 7 a few years ago. Noticeable difference and it's a bit too firm for me. I have developed some heel pain due to it I think. Great episode
Have tried many Max shoes including the Bondi and Invincible Clifton ect and the More V 4 wins for softness for me too.I do nearly all my long and easy runs in it.Its also quite stable on tarmac and well packed trails.The Bondi is good and has loads of cushion but its not soft.Liked the invincible for softness although not as soft as the more V4 but they ruined the shoe with the version 3.
On board with most of these. I don't find the Surfer or the vomero as that soft while running but I'm also not a graceful runner so I chalked it up to just landing hard and bottoming it out. Would be interested to see Andreas list
I do agree with you all on almost everything, but to me the more v4 is more dense than soft so on this one i'm with Andrea. The fuelcell is the softer compound, i do love the elite v3 😊
I agree with your views of Powerrun+ My only experience in it is in the Triumph 17, which I didn’t like much for running and still use for work. I have wondered about trying it again after all the great reviews of the 21. I know there’s more stack and a better upper, but pretty sure I would have a similar experience.
I have a Bondi 8 as a daily trainer, and had an opportunity to step in a 1080v13, so didn't really ran on one.
Comparing the 1080v13 to the Bondi 8, the 1080 makes the Bondi feel like you're walking on bricks, the 1080v13 is just that soft.
On the Vomero you guys disagreed on whether you agree or not😂
To the whole group of DOR: what's the closest zero drop or closest to zero drop from the known brands add any if you'd like guys. So from Altra, Topo, etc that would be closest to your number #1 pick? I ran in the Superblast and have under 20miles and legs felt great and even better after the run and tried the New Balance 1080v13 for walking in it after the run.
Also could you do the same for zero or close to zero drop shoes? I enjoyed
Have you guys ever tried Asics Tarther RP3?! All of these are soft as compared to that one!
I totally cannot understand how the More v4 is the softest. It feels on the firmer side for me (70kg). I think softness is a hard topic to talk about. For example, I would say that ZoomX and FFBlast+ are very soft in the very first few minutes that I put in on. But when I start running, the bounce make them feel less soft as I pick up the pace. The opposite is true for PWRRUN PB and Floatride. They are very firm at first but softens up during the run.
I’m not sure I agree that NB fuelcell is always soft, as they have also put it in some casual shoes like the WRPD Runner, which feels much firmer, but interestingly I feel it might suit me for actual running as it seems super responsive whenever I’ve done a slight jog when in a hurry.
On a separate note, I wonder how perceptions change with body weight, just as the loading changes between walking and running, and at different speeds. I’m on the heavier side of things, and the 1080v13 just feels crazily unstable for example. Certainly responsiveness I expect would be perceived differently with the different loading.
Now do the same for trail shoes!
I have the Nimbus 25 and after 2 runs I already had an injury to my calfs. So no more Nimbus for me 🙂
Never tried any brooks. So the firmer shoes that i’ve tried are Clifton 9 and triumph 20/21. Never tried running on them but just from the step in feels, I really don’t understand why people likes them, as to me it doesn’t feel anything special. Even mach 5 and mach x are not really special to me.
Great video! New runner question. I am new to running (36 years old and started running 6 months ago) and currently going through my first training block for my first marathon in late Feb. and I am running slow, goal sub 4:00 marathon so not breaking records here. I have been running in Endorphin Speed 3 which I have loved for 90% of my runs. I have the Nimbus 25 but don't like them very much. Love walking in them, but not in running. Now that I am into 16/18/20 mile long runs for my training, my legs are really sore for the last 5+ miles and hard to finish the run. Considering I need to go 26 miles, do you have a recommendation for a good shoe that would be better for my legs in the marathon but able to maintain 8:58/mile or is shoe not the problem and I need more training to endure that distance? I appreciate your thoughts!
Did I miss the explanation for bottoming out?
I have had long term Achilles Tendinosus. What should I think about in my running shoes?
Invincible 3 was the worst shoe I’ve ever worn. Injured on the skin on my inner feet and felt like I was running on bricks. Not sure what was wrong.
Could the body type(distribution of weight across the body) affect the perceptin of softness? Think Bulky Guy vs say a light weight female runner based vs say triathlete? Or it could be a simple fact that Dr. Andrea is lighter so it wouldn’t feel as soft to say a heavier runner?(more v4)
Hello doctors, i am an oncologist in France, flat feet, chronic ankle pain after trying altra, achilis issue. So switched, i likeArahi line and recently puma deviate nitro2. I think you may make video on all rounders for heavy weight runners. More V4 is awesome but feel heavy like after 10km line. Thanks
Try the Hoka Gaviota if you like Hokas. This is a hidden gem that no one seems to talk about. It's not their cheapest shoe by any means but imo it's the best one they make. I also love the More V4 btw and agree that they are clunky but otherwise exceptional. I think you will like the Gaviota. Altras are hit and miss, there is a lot of variance between the models so it really depends on which one you tried and you never said,
@@jeffhicks8428 thanks tried them once , feels like rather a walking shoes, but that was the Gaviota 3, may be next generations became more nimble. I think also the brooks glycerin is a good shot
51:00 what is this model ?
Skechers Razor 3 m, an oldie
Go PACKERS👣🦋
David definitely doesn’t want to be here… 😂😂.. Nice shoe, great work to the other 2!..
softnes means knee pain for me...
You realise that people in Europe have no idea what you are talking about in Football... 😂😂😂 We have real football 😊
Whispers: the best football ⚽️
Exactly, real football 🏈
@@Charles-kc2vt This will never end.. 😂
Yes and real football where the game does not stop for a rest every 10 seconds 🤣🤣🤣
American and European football fans arguing over who’s more insufferable challenge
New Balance Lerato.....
Talk about shoes! Not bere for football
Dallas sucks!
But the people are lovely 😅
" America's Team " 🇺🇸