Jacob Collier on Rick Rubin: That was unexpected (for me)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 มิ.ย. 2024
- I recently watched a great conversation on creativity. And it's like Colin and Samir said in the conversation themselves: It's a conversation only they could have with Jacob Collier. When I saw that there was a chapter in there where they are debating Rick Rubin - I was of course interested. And - I was surprised by the angle the conversation took.
Really fantastic conversation by the way - made me think a lot about how I approach my own work.
Please do watch the whole conversation - it's absolutely worth every second, especially if you are a creative person.
dude, fast subscribe for "...if you didn't know who 'they' were you wouldn't have clicked on this video..." appreciate you getting to the point!
LOL, hope you won’t regret it. That’s my most recent smaller project that might help you decide…
th-cam.com/video/cXTnS128R4s/w-d-xo.html
rick is not against making art for other people. in fact, isn’t the entire purpose of his book to help others? his point is that creatives shouldn’t let their fear / expectation of what people would think, get in the way of making whatever they want to make. jacob is now using human connection and community as a source of inspiration / motivation, and i’m sure rick would fully support that. they don’t disagree, jacob just misinterpreted the statement
Here's why I think it makes sense to watch the whole conversation, because there are other aspects where they seem to disagree.
And in the end I think they both set out to do the same thing: Help and inspire people to MAKE their own things - and I do love Jacob's quote (which isn't in my video) where he said that the way Rick puts it out seems like it's the only way to do it.
For me it was important to watch this, simply because it's my biggest challenge to create and make something that makes that connection.
@@BenjaminJaksch currently watching the full interview :)
Jacob definitely didn’t misinterpret the statement.
Agreed. Jacob misunderstood. Rick does what he does, and he wants others to like it. He's obviously creating for other people. That's how he makes money. But to worry about what the mass audience will like during the process is counterproductive. That isn't to say he doesn't collaborate with the artists he's in the room with.
Just another loud blue Jay pretending to understand his way out of nepotism. Imagine inheriting the "chosen people" mother? Instead of the "all whites are holding you down" gene. I'll wait.
I've heard Rick Rubin explain his POV this way (paraphrasing):
In order for an artist to create their best work FOR an audience, it needs to be something the artist finds interesting and is passionate about.
As someone who works in marketing, I totally see the difference.
When you set out to make something for an audience (especially a mass audience) you are making a product. And that's okay.
But art is different.
After the art is made, marketing helps it find the right audience. But if you start thinking too much about the audience too soon, you are thinking about marketing your art before it's made.
I think bringing marketing into the conversation here is misleading.
Art by its nature is communicative, and you can never remove that aspect from it. Trying to make art without any reference to an audience is like trying to write sentences without any reference to an audience, and then finding that means you can't use words, because words by their nature presuppose the existence of an audience.
The second you start using words you're including an audience, even if you never mean to show anyone.
Making art for yourself should be thought of in the same way that contributing to a conversation is, sure, you're going to say the things you want to say, but you still have to use a shared language, because there isn't any other kind of language.
Marketing doesn't come into it until much later, and is a much less fundamental thing.
@@pietzsche I agree with this. I like your points. Maybe there's a difference, though, between trying to please an audience and meet their expectations versus making something for them.
Sometimes artists make things that make people uncomfortable. Other times they reinvent themselves and lose part of their audience.
Another thing I've heard Rubin say is that.... If it's something the artist likes them there are going to be others out there who appreciate it too. You just have to find them.
@@TheKcstein7 Yeah I agree with that.
I'd add as well that art that makes people uncomfortable is often made precisely for that reason, and so is also made for those people.
I think Collier is interpreting Rubin as advocating pandering here, which I don't think is what he meant
@@pietzsche i mean
Sound
What you say i mostly agree
But instrumental music. Communication is there
It's common lenguage honestly thats too abstract even with all the common planetary phisics. You could wrap it in some manner but you could just be working on marketing
Learning the roots and all is cool but essentially you'd want to be saying that which you want to say
Should it be delivered in a particular way or another is part of the message and the message probably doesnt exist until i translate it from where words dont really get
I would listen to Rubin all day. Don't really care what Collier thinks
😅
Same here.
Two highly creative people with dramatically different perspectives on the origins of their creative endeavors.
I respect both of them enormously and I'm very glad we live in a world with many different points of view.
True!
I'm wishing for world peace.
I think that in a way Rick Rubin is saying is that you need to love what you’re doing and you need to believe and be excited about your creation. If it’s for you or others is not really relevant I think. Enjoy your creation like you want others to enjoy. If you are excited about it most likely someone else will like it and as a musician, that’s my greatest power, to be the listener of your own music.
Thanks, I can resonate with that 🙏🏻
Always interesting to hear perspectives, but I think the real key to creativity is to stop talking about it, or debating it - just be it.
🙌🏼
I get where Jacob Collier is coming from, but I think the context matters here.
Rick Rubin is giving this advice to artists who feel immense outside pressure, to conform to certain expectations, be it financial, societal or cultural.
I can imagine that Jacob Collier is able to make music with and for others without having to meet these expectations, which is probably why he is missing the point Rick Rubin was trying to make in his book.
True. Still this perspective was eye-opening and really important for me.
@@BenjaminJakschI do agree with some of his points, especially that not a single philosophy can be applied to everyone. In the end the artist has to decide for themselves what approach works for them, so it's important to have different opinions to reflect on.
I'd guess Jacob feels this way now because he is in a profoundly collaborative phase. The question it seems to me is, would he be so outlandishly prodigious without those many years spent on that cold, airless summit of his mountain? Rick is proposing that this is where magic is very likely to be found, but I don't think he's saying never come down off it. In taking a punt at answering that question though - evidence suggests this time of isolation from the creative world at-large allowed Jacob to hone his craft to a brilliant clarity and sharpness absent undue interference; including from his own Mother who it seems has been pivotal in enabling his musical development organically and without impositions.
Interesting perspective 👌🏼
When I first came upon Rick's "creating for yourself" take I immediately thought about Jacob's early music, and particularly what Jacob said in his 2020 Grammy speech "do things on your own terms, and on your own time, do things for yourself, and give everything away".
It’s interesting that his career has taken that shift since.
Thanks , I like your discernment on this matter.
Thank you 🙏🏻
Don’t mistake the finger for the moon. The path to a creative life is different for every person.
Creativity is a form of communication. Ideally, a form which transcends the boundaries of colors/sounds/words/motion in novel ways. This form of communication can be aimed at the self trying to commune its innermost identity (Rick Rubin's point), or, the self trying to commune with someone else's identity (Jacob's point). Both, obviously, are right. Creativity can be communication in either form. Rick's point, is that in order to know what you want to communicate to the world around you through creativity, you first need to develop a personal sense of creative taste that is YOURS, rather than trying to chase the tastes of others. Notice that Jacob stated he made music for himself many years BEFORE making music for others. So a good resolution here, is START OUT by making music and art motivated by trying to please yourself and your own tastes, until you are confident enough in what "good" and "bad" is to YOU that your individuality won't be destroyed by chasing the approval of others. Then, once you have that individuality and backbone, if you choose, you can try to make music and art for others by identifying the forms of "good" you honestly agree with, that they might ALSO agree is good. Doing it this way is less like "letting the world's opinion destroy your artistic individuality", and more like "curating the forms of your artistic individuality the rest of the world might enjoy."
Rick and Jacob are on the same page ultimately
I think so too. Still that conversation would be amazing.
It’s impossible to know what others will like because all you have is your perception of them which lives entirely inside your own head anyways. You can only truly know what you like. It’s like the philosophy “I think therefore I am”
Man, Rick should produce jacobs next project
it seems obvious that jacob and rick have completely different artistic values. They could probably make something absolutely incredible together ...
That would be really interesting 👌🏼
Jacob has 3.4 million monthly listeners on Spotify
Rick rubin is about making good music.
Jacob is about making some pretentious chordy dabadooda bullshit.
@@JK.BOWLING comparing Apples and Oranges
@@wurlitsyzer9810 I'm not the one comparing. He is.
I've met people with similar personality types to Jacob. They ego identify with things they do to the point where they start to believe they are in some way unique for possessing the talents that they do or for being a creative person in general. So when someone like Rick Rubin comes along and says "anyone can be creative", it threatens how they feel their creativity is different or special because the environment they grew up in sheltered that mentality. I'm not saying their creativity isn't unique or special, but people like this tend to forget that everyone's is just as unique and special. Rick Rubin preaches unlocking a part of ourselves that is shut off from the world by oppressive forces people like Jacob probably never had to face. Jacob talks to trust fund hipsters at colleges who have been able to foster their creativity from their lofty seat of privilege. When they wanted to learn something new as a child, there was no "oh, well that will be too loud" or "that wont make you any money when you grow up", which is what most musicians hear their entire lives. To even assume someone can just be "uncreative" is almost classist in and of itself.
I personally find Jacob's music kind of boring. When I listen to it, I feel like he's desperately trying to impress me with his virtuosity and it kills the vibe of the song. Trying so hard to be so perfect that he forgets to let Jacob sing. Humanity is not perfect, so to try and make your music as perfect as possible is going to make it less human.
100%
I was just about to make a video on Jacob Collier's interview with Colin and Samir and I came across your video. Awesome video and awesome channel. Subscribed :)
Thank you!
Great video!
As a designer (and 3d artist on the side) criativity is everything. And what i found and then i saw Rick RUbin saying the same is that Criavtivity flows when you do it like a diary, for yourself. I discover that when i was younger, i can write and draw different things for hours.
But , as a designer, (and jacob as a musician), we have clients and have to care about others. But the 2 worlds dont have to be separate. I can join the 100 ideias i developed alone with client concepts and critics, instead of being stuck for hours with just 1 or 2 ideas.
And lets see, Jacob, as a lot of great musicians, they would stop creating if they dont had pleasure doing it. And is widely know that if you do things just for others we will lose motivation really fast
Thanks, yes I agree. I wish I could do the approach we did when we were younger more often. That’s a lot more playful and explorative. That’s the problem when money enters the equation I guess 😅
Love your video and I loved seeing the title pop up in my recs after watching Jacob's interview with Colin and Samir because I had the same reaction to hearing his thoughts on Rubin's take on creativity. It got me thinking that both perspectives are likely both paradoxically correct, but that it might depend on where you're at in your creative development or where your personal bias leans. Those who tend toward having a hard time hearing their own inner creative voice either because it's underdeveloped or tends to be subsumed by the actual or imagined voice of the audience are likely to find Rubin's advice helpful as an anchor or a north star--make things that YOU believe in regardless of the reception. I sense that Jacob powerfully hears his own inner creative voice, and so Rubin's take is just less relevant and resonant with him. I think it depends on the energetic place a person's coming from. There's a difference between making something for others' validation and approval in order to gain confidence in your own artistic voice versus already having that confidence, so the ego doesn't need validation, and can therefore make things in service of others, which sounds like the playing field Jacob is on. Creating in a vacuum only takes you so far. It's like limiting the satisfaction available to you and it deprives others of something they might really need or be asking for.
When I listen to Rubin I hear to first make things with only your self in mind as the audience in order to grant yourself a level of freedom from imagined judgment that inspires something authentic. Only then is your creativity ready to be shared with an audience. It's like having in the back of your mind that you always intended to share it with an audience for their benefit and enjoyment but consciously decide to forget them initially in order to make contact with what's honest in yourself. Make it for yourself so that your work allows others to make contact with themselves to the same depth.
Can't wait for that conversation.
Thank you very much. Me too!
The balance between the being the monk and seeking the approval of the crowd is our job to sort out each in our own unique way. Its all a big science project, really. Throw a bunch of stuff together and let every possible thing that can happen happen. Our environment, our decisions, what we create make us happy, and might make the crowd happy, its a crapshoot. If it does make the crowd happy, the multiplication factor of that adulation by potentially millions is then a temptation, a delusion, and a diversion. Where's the balance between making myself happy and making something that makes the crowd happy. This is important stuff! I would PAY to see Rick and Colin converse! PLEASE MAKE IT HAPPEN!
Ne too. Let Jacob and Rick meet 😅
very good video. I've been wondering about the same thing for the past couple of days and this video is a very good continuation of the "art for yourself vs for others" conversation
Thank you very much!
Creativity is such an amazing process as it exists on the boundary between dimensions, between the unknown and the known. We can create from a place of working on what we love and have the underlying intent that it will be a gift for the collective. Both are possible. But intent is so important. It opens the door to what we receive as creatives, allows us to convey more that what we already carry within us. It speaks to the multidimensional aspects of consciousness and enables something greater to speak through us while we can remain blissfully innocent of the import of that message. That importance, that value, takes effect when it is received by those for whom it is meant. That's when the magic happens.
That's why I love the conversation and the topic.
i think that art is born of time and love. when one pours these things into an endeavour, knowingly or incidentally, an individual will be breathing his very soul into a creation, and that will inevitably become a form of art. not universally, but to those who are open to seeing it for what it is. so, if you want to make good art, just try your best because you want to, and it shall happen one way or another.
I think that the approach you describe gets tainted by today‘s perceived „pressure“ from social media.
So the question remains: would you change anything about your art if nobody reacted to it?
@@BenjaminJaksch i believe you can do both. I think as people we are very complex and have a very deep and varied taste, as artists even more so, and so its only natural to try many different approaches. sometimes you cook for yourself, sometime you try cook for others. both can be nourishing and enjoyable and also conducive to improvement. i dont write hooks. many people say i should so that it can reach more people. sometimes, when i feel like, i do, and that can be enjoyable in itself and also helps me improve. most times, i do whatever i feel like because in my art, i am god and i do what i please :)
Thank you for this. I say we need more bridge-building, dialogue-inciting curators like yourself to help navigate this world of ours.
That must be the nicest thing that anyone said to me the whole day 😅
So thanks a lot 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
it’s really just metaphysics and philosophy we are talking about here, at the heart of it is
i don’t see it as dialectics, the idea of the crowd benefits when you are your most authentic self is very solid, but the idea of self-sacrificial love as the source of your creativity, that’s also solid. there has to be a synergy of both
but i like how you pointed out that rick doesn’t claim to be all knowing
I think that’s why this quote stuck out to me that much.
To draw upon the Hero's archetype. The Hero does go it alone, in the cave, upon the mountain, in the deep woods, to discover the riches within. The Hero discovers how to sit. However, that is only one part of the journey. The other aspect is the turn around, the return, the sharing. We go it alone to scrub away the conditioning, to inhale, thereby, as we exhale, our offering to the world is free, untethered from patterns of validation, approval, acceptance and judgement. The Hero's gift, born from the center of self, is one of total service to others. As my eyes land upon the peach tree in our back yard the tiny fuzzy buds deepen me to this journey of reciprocity. The winter returned this tree to the inner dimension, but now, as spring awakens the offering of this discovered sweetness is a command that not only does this tree abide in, but if I am to personify, it will relish as it unconditionally provides to every hand, every voice, every perspective, including the worm its gift. To the the Self be true and yet know that the other is the self. Savor the paradox of reciprocity. Peace.
Am I the only one that thinks that we really need at least a 3 hour podcast with Jacob and Rick
Haha no I would love that very much, too 🙌🏼
Despite sharing his music with a vast audience, Jacob retains full control over all decisions, from selecting collaborators to deciding how their contributions will serve his artistic vision, and that is a inner solitary state. This autonomy is built upon the foundation laid by countless musicians before him, each leaving their mark through composition, recording, and sharing. Whether reaching one person or a billion hinges on the universality of his music. While some musicians may create purely for the joy of it, Jacob's circumstances dictate his path; his trajectory feels inevitable. Its simply a temporary exchange of interconnected solitary worlds. Paradoxical but it seems to be the case.
Dude.
Temporary exchange of interconnected solitary worlds.
Says it all.
great video and questions. I think it's really healthy to experience that feeling when one guru "criticises" your own guru, haha. We put people on pedestals and sometimes we need somebody who shakes it up a little. If you engage with that feeling positively it will only help with your own creative proces. Because in the end you are your own guru. Of course you also find out that they just approach the same thing from a different perspective. I both love them. my admiration with Jacob apart from his musical mastery is that he is a connector and facilitator, somebody who is completely in the world process where his musical passion is the catalyst for it. It is what happens when somebody is completely allowed to be him or herself. Rubin on the other hand is the Zen master of music, who helps people who realise how they can take the ego out of the process or if the ego is there , to make it a part of the creative process in a genuine and original way. In a way they are both forces of nature. Detachment from what ultimately stifles the process but also reconnection and integration of what makes you truly you.
I think I'm falling in the middle. When I'm making music, it's usually on jam sessions. I'm neither doing what I do for the audience, nor do I do it for myself. It's communication between all the musicians on stage. Listening to what they do, getting inspired by it, giving new ideas back and taking the whole jam on a journey. That's also how I would approach writing new music in a band. It's somewhat for oneself, somewhat for others, but ultimately, it's just for the music.
There is a time in any artist's life where they are looking for an identity or a message or style.
At that point you make art for yourself.
Once you find your voice it onward and upward hopefully expressing to and resonating with the largest audience possible
In my opinion that contradiction is what they are both approaching from different ends
This rings true to me. Search, then share. That said, even after one finds their voice, the tension in the second (sharing) stage is how much one is willing to tolerate distorting or in various ways cheapening one’s voice in order to amplify/sell it. But this may also be part of the process of the voice maturing and evolving. Lots to think about…
All of this is pure mental masturbation around words. As Frank Zappa used to say: "Shut up and play your guitar"
I feel that Art is a conversation between the artist and the audience that happens out of linear time. As an artist, you're saying something with your art. What are you saying, and why are you saying it? If what you have to say is an important message, it finds the ears ready to hear it in your audience. If it's a stupid conversation, then nobody will care. And maybe, what you're trying to say is simply off the mark. If you're saying what you're saying to be part of a bigger discourse, to add color and flavor to other conversations, that's wonderful too. They are all valid conversations. Ultimately, what you say is your contribution so the broader societal conversation, and the impact that has is the impact that has. Wether you sing at karaoke, and you resonate somebody else's conversation back into the universe, or you create something truly unique and new - it's all part of the choir of voices and emotion and conversation of the human race; and is all a beautiful expression of the universe through you. You mould your views and your thoughts based on those around you, and naturally the art you create as conversation is moulded similarly. This isn't bad, it's simply the effect of existing in a society that is an ocean of opinion and thought. You can create a new wave, and new current even, but it will intrinsically be connected and part of the whole.
No one is right 100% of the time. This is true for Rick Rubin, Jacob Collier, etc. I think there's a danger in blindly agreeing with everything your heroes say. Something that's true for them may not be true for you. I think it's far more important to have to confidence and self-knowledge to develop your own philosophy. This is especially true in a field as subjective as art-making.
music and art is so subjective that things such as "right/wrong" or "should/shouldn't" become nearly irrelevant
I'm no expert, but I'm having a "why not both?" experience. I've heard it said that the more personal, the more specific you make a thing, the more others will be able to generalize that thing to their specific circumstances. There's another way to think about this paradox: if *you* don't care about what you're making, if it doesn't excite *you* and make you passionate for it, how can you expect others to enjoy it? So, maybe making it "for" others entails making it as honest and passionate a thing as it can be, and making it *available* for others to see if they can relate to it in the ways you do. That's what I try to do, anyways. I'm no good at being anyone but myself, so if I try to be clever and craft something that I think will speak to someone other than me, it invariably comes out worse.
Of course you are making songs for others in the end, but the process of creating it should not be filtered through thinking of how others will or might perceive it because that will just taint the work! I think Rick and his track record speak volumes that he knows what he’s doing and talking about. Make the art you want to make from your heart in its purest form! Rick is absolutely correct that you should never let the audience dictate what you make. I don’t understand how Jacob doesn’t get that, he’s being controversial on purpose is my guess or just doesn’t get what Rick really meant.
So we do indeed need that conversation between the two of them.
Maybe on top of a mountain. 😅
Truth is generally relative and Rubin is well aware of that. He has done a lot of TM and I suspect a lot of what he says comes from there. Collier probably does not have this background and may have misinterpreted Rubin. e.g. When Rubin says the audience comes last it does not mean the audience doesn't matter, but rather that the creative process should be personally and inherently satisfying for the creator, even before a potential audience is a factor in the equation. A personal example is the covers band I played in. For weeks I was playing famous guitar solos (e.g. hotel california, bohemian rhapsody- that kind of thing). Audiences love it and I like to make people happy but after you've done it a couple of times it can get a bit repetitive and a feeling of personal emotional investment is lacking. I think that's what Rubin's referring to. It's not a slight on audiences. I know a guy who is not hugely introspective and plays exclusively for audiences. He loves it and so do they. Maybe the distinction is between 1) entertainment and 2) creativity as a path to personal, emotional and spiritual development. I tend towards Rubin's outlook.
The opening line of Rick's book, "Nothing in this book is known to be true."
Hey, I think I mentioned it in the video 👌🏼
@@BenjaminJaksch Exactly
great vid man!
Thank you!
yeah its called taste and opinion, what works for you may not work for others, there is no rules.
So true
❤ art in service of others
Rick states in the beginning of the book that nothing is true, it’s all perspective
Exactly - that's why I mentioned it in the video :-)
Talk about misconstruing an idea.
Jakob agrees with Rick, he just doesn’t know it yet
I can totally see both sides to this, in fact, there's nothing that says you can't do one or the other, or even not put much thought into it along that axis; of for-self or for-others. As with many debates, I see two people thinking too much and too one-tracked. Not only can you look at it either way-you don't have to in either way. But the statement "art for art's sake" doesn't make sense to me, because it seems a circular definition, whereas we must provide our own definition.
Rick Rubin is a genius producer Jacob is a musical genius. Neither one is false or wrong. Different individuals do what's right for their art. They are from different generations. Jacob grew up with this fans paying him and enjoys making art with them. Rick helps artists find their individual voice and does not consider selling music in the process of making it as it can be a distraction. Different times and different schools with different thoughts.
Coming from a background in evaluation and striving to measure what matters, and determine impact and change, I wonder how we might know if Collier or Rubin are achieving their intentions. Are more people making more? How could we possibly know?
That’s why I love this topic, because in the end nobody knows.
The question really becomes what question we are trying to answer.
I think that’s true for every kind of art form.
interesting question to inform the process. no single answer
Art that nooneone but yourself can relate to, loses its meaning i think. It should always be a form of communication. BUT art that is made to please someone in particular is in danger of just being a product or "content" There is far too much of that going around these days, imo.. The art that truely moves and inspires us is something where there is a correlation between the artist and the spectator or society as a whole.
Honestly... After hearing Jacob... I think it reinforces Rick IMO. Jacob makes music that is fun, original, full of creative ideas, is impressive in its scope and talent, but is ultimately music I'd never throw on when I need or want to listen to music. Whether that's something mundane like driving, working, or cooking... or if I need to try and cope with a heavy emotion like loss, sorrow, anger, determination, etc. His music does absolutely nothing for me emotionally, but it does a ton for me mentally. I listen to Jacob to learn, not to reflect. What he's making is more of an exercise in music education/exploration rather than art which is meant to be an expression of emotion. I don't want to diminish that like it's some insult... It's not... and it's social value is equal to or even more significant than that of pure art because it's inclusive and adds to the music language... but it's emotional value is not as strong as what I would consider art. So I agree with Rick.
That’s a really good point, thanks.
This is a matter of point of views: OLD SCHOOL vs NEW SCHOOL
hab direkt an dich gedacht beim anhören heute!
Aber lohnt sich, oder?! Ich fand’s echt gut das Gespräch 👌🏼
Ich hätte niemals gemerkt dass hier deutsch im Spiel ist 😯😲
bayrisch sogar!@@c-mad6364
Art teacher here... I've thought about this topic a lot. I definitely think Jacob misinterpreted what Rick is saying. Rick's whole goal is to get the artist to feel comfortable "naked" in his studio. A common hurdle for artists is relying on past successes. Trying to recreate the magic of your past success really limits your creativity. If you're able to create art that YOU like and is true to you, that's the key, but an artist can't do that if their concerned about record sales or writing the next big hit. However, as an artist that creates art to be consumed by an audience, you do have to think about audience perception- but that's more about the craftsmanship side of art making.
I think Collier understands music on a root level. His songs and covers just warble on and sap away real human feelings. He is AI.
As a Collier fan who thinks Rubin is overrated, I think Rubin's greatest quality was to provide an accepting environment that gave musicians permission to be who they were. He seems like a guy who would be comfortable to make music around.
What I dislike most about Rubin is that he seems too cowardly to express himself. "Nothing in this book is known to be true", while technically correct, it's an expression of self-doubt, as if he hasn't be given permission to say what he thinks.
For Rubin's time, I'm sure the artists he worked with just appreciated a producer who wouldn't interfere as much.
I still think that exactly this quality is really important when it comes to creative work - but I get your point 👍🏼
What is wrong with self doubt? I‘d rather listen to someone who’s aware of his possible flaws than someone who’s stating absolutes like Jacob
@@herrroin6867 Some self doubt is fine. My point is that he doesn't have the courage to really express himself. It doesn't seem like he really contributes to the artists he works with. That can be what artists need sometimes, but I don't think it justifies his legendary reputation.
I think Jacob is right here. Rick tends to get lost in his platitudes, and this is one case of that. Of course you can be formulaic and be hugely successful and get lots of loyal listeners. Look at Taylor Swift. Rick is just wrong on this point.
However, Jacob is lying to them. He isn't sitting around trying to figure out what everyone wants to hear from him. That's such a silly notion if you've heard his music. Jacob's style is EXTREMELY self-gratifying, and tends to repel most listeners when a sample is given. He takes massive risks on every song and stays true to himself, so I'm not sure what he's on about.
Interesting. Especially your thought on Jacob‘s style - I guess that’s true.
You attract your audience is by doing what you think is good work. Now I don't understand what jacob collier is saying about conformity. But rap started as an art form nobody liked and they didn't conform and now rap is a liked art form. Jacob collier sounds like he loves connecting people together through his music. One art form was not accepted by mainstream media and didn't conform to what wad popular, then got radio play. The other art form is bringing people together to express themselves through music. Both art forms bring people together whether it'd be through the experimentation, or through saying something and making something cool with it.
Good point on the rap music 👍🏼
I don’t know if I can confidently call Jacob Collier the Mozart of our time. He’s an absolutely incredible musician- definitely one of the world’s greatest musical prodigies. But as a songwriter, I just don’t think his work is compelling - it doesn’t touch your soul. Being a virtuoso versus being a once-in-a-generation songwriter/composer are very different things in my opinion.
Thank you very much for your perspective.
As for the title "Mozart of Gen Z": I believe that's what makes the interview a little more clickable for people who don't know him or his work (I suppose).
Regarding your point about "touching your soul": Well I guess that's pretty subjective, right? But when it comes to showing what's musically possible - especially the art of conducting 10.000 voices without saying a word - that's really impressive.
Jacob spells it out himself. “People who know what they’re doing don’t make interesting work, it’s as simple as that.” Very talented musician in terms of his knowledge of music theory. Unfortunately for him it didn’t translate (in my opinion) into being a talented songwriter.
Can you explain more what the difference is? (I really don’t know). What makes a good songwriter (and how isn’t he one?)
@@BenjaminJaksch it depends on your definition of a “good songwriter” but for me that would be someone who can write a song that can make me feel something without resting on the laurels of complex music theory. I think most people would agree that Jacob Collier knows more music theory than someone like Tracy Chapman for example, but I think very few people would say Jacob is a more talented songwriter.
@@BenjaminJaksch not at all I think it’s a valid point! It’s all subjective at the end of the day, but I think if you ask the average person to name a Jacob Collier song the vast majority wouldn’t / don’t even know who he is. As a musician I think he’s incredible, I think the catch-22 is he has such an insane amount of knowledge/skill at his disposal he can’t help but write compositions/songs that are too complex or abstract. IMO the hallmark of a great song is a good earworm /hook. And regarding my comment about ‘touching your soul’ (again that is very subjective), it’s hard to engage with music that is so complex.
But I think he will do great things-still young so can’t speak too soon, he’s paved the way to build an incredible legacy- and his live audience choir arrangements are jaw droppingly impressive! :)
Jacob Collier: "People who know what they're doing don't make interesting work"
Also Jacob Collier: *Know's everything*
Also Jacob Collier: Makes some of the least listenable albums
...curious...
Rick also said to make for God. To me, this means that everything we make should be an offering to a higher power.
Also, I think the quote is misunderstood. If I am an artist and I make what people want, I will make nothing worth making. If I however make what I want, what pleases me and not what pleases the audience, I will make something I can be proud of.
Also, Jacob Collier isn't a genius... He has a genius. Which is different. He seems to be tapped into (internally) a field of music, sound and emotion. Which he couldn't be able to tap into if he was concerned with making things for other people. Leo Tolstoy defined art as the transmutation of an emotion. That's what JC does. That's what RR helps artists do.
Thank you for your perspective 🙏🏼
I think you are the only one talking about facts here. Rick and Jacob are just making bold claims about their experience. It doesn’t need to be discussed dogmatically. But as a believer in Jesus Christ I find it interesting, as the discussion about an almighty, personal and graceful God who inspired philosophers and fundamental physicians for centuries, is being pushed to be relative and outdated, but words of people doing (fairly interesting) popular art being discussed literally. Makes me thinking.
Didn’t want to turn it into a dogmatic discussion 😅 I just picked up a quote and shared the thoughts it inspired me to 😅
And from the effect it had it already shows me it’s an important discussion.
Rubin’s conversation with that child would be more like a grandpa changing some baby’s dippers
Ok boomer
I think it’s going to be as interesting as Rick Rubin talking to Pharell. Loved that one.
@@BenjaminJaksch Pharell have 10 years of difference with Rubin, Collier have little more than 30 years of difference... interesting maybe in a Celebrity death match format jeje
Bach chorales prove Rick Ruben is wrong. They were written to get paid for this Sunday’s church service where ever. Cole Porter wrote songs for movies for money, it doesn’t diminish the fact that there are some of the greatest songs written.
a common trait with these modern supposed geniuses is a misunderstanding or ignorance of history. They cherry pick and warp to fit the bias they had to begin with. These amazing composers of the classical tradition prove lots of these people's theories out of the water.
I trust Rick over Jacob. 🤷♂️😎👍😁✌️
Haha that’s the thing, as soon as there is fame and money involved the question becomes who you can trust.
Rubin will be remembered.
Collier will be forgotten.
I could be wrong but I'd bet everything on it.
Find equanimity.
Good point.
There's not even a clear-cut definition of "art" or "creativity".. The closest you get to a concrete definition of "creativity", is something like "lateral thinking", which happens in human brains all the time, whether making a sculpture or grocery shopping.. Synthesizing novel ideas from existing ones is "creativity".
Jacob jumped to conclusions here, he didn't read the preface and he took a hateful stance. Unlike him and disappointing to see.
nah, 3:07, I doubt it. Jacob is not an inspiration, its an oppressor xD... Rick is soft
my opinion is they both in different time period , if rick start producing music in now he will not have a chance without music theory knowledge and knowing all tech stuff we hunting today. jack has develop all these things to achieve Morden music world yes they both have great opinion
...what would make a conversation even more worthwile....
I think Jacob’s perspective is beautiful, refreshing, and absolutely correct. Art is an act of service to one’s community, or-even better-an act of service to something bigger, something that transcends self and society, whatever that may be. How exciting to hear a young 21st century artist speak like this.
That’s why I shared this - because it’s a perspective I haven’t had before.
„absolutely correct“. What does that even mean?
🫶🏽
Collier is a genius at creating controversy where there is none to gain attention. Rubin certainly believes in sharing art. He is saying during the creative portion of the process if the artist imagines an audience and attempts to meet their fabricated expectations, then the art will suffer, because you can only ever know yourself, and all that projection is emotional baggage and cultural myth.
That’s what makes the process so interesting 🙏🏻
Where is the controversy? lol
He disagreed with somebody. That’s not controversy. Please provide another example of Collier creating controversy.
Evangelism marketing is an advanced form of word-of-mouth marketing in which companies develop customers who believe so strongly in a particular product or service that they freely try to convince others to buy and use it. The customers become voluntary advocates, actively spreading the word on behalf of the company.
Evangelism marketing is sometimes confused with affiliate marketing. However, while affiliate programs provide incentives in the form of money or products, evangelist customers spread their recommendations and recruit new customers out of pure belief, not for the receipt of goods or money. Rather, the goal of the customer evangelist is simply to provide benefit to other individuals.
As they act independently, evangelist customers often become key influencers. The fact that evangelists are not paid or associated with any company make their beliefs perceived by others as credible and trustworthy.
Evangelism comes from the three words of 'bringing good news', and the marketing term draws from the religious sense, as consumers are driven by their beliefs in a product or service, which they preach in an attempt to convert others.
i think hes the musical equivalent of eminem, its too good that its gross
which is why jacob's releases are so boring and annoying regardless of his infinite knowledge and ability. if he made stuff without caring about modern audiences, his work would be more exciting, which would ironically attract more people. i think that's what rubin meant - it is for an audience, but the audience should not be over-considered, as that would limit your outside-the-box creativity.
Rick Rubin has helped artists to produce great music, we’re still waiting for Jacob to do the same, until he does, I’m listening to Rubin.
😅
Diddy party
This all feels very high up in the chest and throat, very ego driven. I don't like Collier's absolutist rejection of what Rick has to say. It feels contrived and unnecessary. Rick has a way of speaking about art that leaves things open ended and malleable as art is. Jacob's takeaways from Rick sound as rigid as some of his music.
I agree with your take on this. I absolutely love Rick for his insight and vastly open-mind and I love Jacob for the unapologetic undeniably talented savant that he is, however, this isn’t a true or false scenario.
I’d love to see Jacob discuss this on Tetragrammaton.
As if any of this will ever move souls towards beauty, it’s just a poshy academic ppl diss. Trap ones are more enjoyable.
Jacob Collier is the Elon Musk of music.
Hahaha
That's giving Collier way too much credit.
I don't think Jacob Collier really understands the wisdom of Rick Rubin. His interpretation of Rick's words don't ring true to me. He sounds too into himself.
Never listened to this guy before he trash talk one of the greatest producers of all time. He’s definitely trash.
i think it's obvious Jake "makes music for others" as he admitted. He constantly sounds like he is trying to cram a bunch of "impressive" things into 1 song, as opposed to making an enjoyable coherent piece of music. His opening track on Djesse 4 is a perfect example of what i mean. his music is just not for me, and I find his approach super boring to listen to.
Jacob is short-sighted. First of all, the only work an artist produces that is truly "for oneself" is the work that is never released to the public. Once it is released, it is no longer just for oneself, and it transcends the artist's needs-as simple as that. Also a possible majority of artists are the type who HAVE TO create for therapeutic reasons. Not everyone had such a sunshine-y and educational upbringing as Collier, which I know he readily admits. Jacob makes rather safe and accessible music even compared to his hero-Stevie Wonder-who had many, many proper hit songs. Collier has not had one real hit, his songwriting is nowhere near Sting or anyone else he covers, nor is he a household name despite winning awards. He would do well to STOP writing for his audience, strip back his obsessions, and see what happens when he only has four tracks to record instead of 700. He could also use to explore darkness more, if he even has a dark side. The kid is obnoxiously positive, and shuns the other sides of humanity. I digress.
Rick Rubin's favorite artist is Trent Reznor. You should really listen to his podcast with Trent, as Rick brings this subject to light in terms of Trent's endless introspection and "making the music (he) needed to" so he could feel better. th-cam.com/video/k3skqyLqDoA/w-d-xo.html
Jacob is an amazing musician but makes awful music.
Avoid objectivity. Your truth is your truth and doesn't apply to everyone, especially Jacobs millions of fans and his 6 (I think) Grammys.
Ha, absolutely spot on.
This is such a common sentiment about his music, and I agree. I physically cringed at 10,000 voices by him.
@@jacobchris356if grammy’s is the standard of judging an artists success. In that case Hendrix, Queen, pink flyod, the who, abba, etc would not even be in the picture. And surely the above artists inspired a lot more people than collier.
@@Randomblues277 fair point on the Grammys they gotta fix that🤣. However the point is that he still is selling out shows worldwide, I would believe that a large fan base would prove that his music isn't "awful" right, at least not to everyone... This is coming from someone who also thinks this last album is awful 🤣 but to say he makes awful music as if it's a fact is disingenuous to the people who connect with it.
eight minutes wasted on the most bland and irrelevant video I've seen in years.
Jacob Collier only makes garbage music
Really explains why Jacob simply cannot make art.
The way I see it, if you do music for yourself and yourself only, you can end up in a musical onanism session (some jazz musicians have at least one album like that). And if you try to make something that appeals to absolutely everyone, it will most likely suck really hard.
Tbh nobody can make music for someone other than themselves. How do you even do that? You can only perceive it from your point of view. But you can assume that there will be at least a few people out there that will perceive it in a similar way to yours.
If you still try to make music for someone else's taste and you don't like your own music, that will certainly suck too because you'll only be second guessing yourself. That's not how art is created, that's for sure.
So as long as your music is sincere and your head is not way up in your own ass, meaning you're not narcissistically making music for your own ego, then chances are someone out there will appreciate it. The point is that you realize you're not an isolated individual who's so special that only you can really appreciate your music, because if that's the case you're definitely on an ego trip.
Thanks for your perspective 🙌🏼
Thank you for your thoughts 🙏🏻