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At this point, I think it would be great if this companies come out with some kind of DSP software with their DAC's. I would love to play and listen to presets and emulations of legendary and famous hi-fi amps, speakers and headphones, just like musicians have been doing for ages with their gear
👆👆👆This
You can emulate distortion characteristics of famous amps. SMSL has a colour feature on some it's of DACs. If you think you're going to degrade the music in a way that some speakers headphones do and have it sound better playing through your speakers and headphones keep dreaming.
You can route your signal through a DAW and use vst plugins to color the sound. I use the Reaper DAW and plugins from Analog Obsession, both of which are free and the Analog Obsession plugins sound great.
@@kyron42 'Tube 1' on my SU-8 is a no-brainer when listening to music through a linear amp. Fucks with it just a little.
@Yo Naash Same thing, sort of, I mean a DAC with DSP chip, DSP software and plugins of different comercial amps, tubes, phono cartridges, tonearms.. cables (lol)
little ant bro at @2:04 👊
Shot outside 😅
Nice catch
Ant sis :-)
Ant man cameo
man I was about to say the same thing
It seems like DACs and amps have evolved to a similar point as smartphones. I used to be a smartphone enthusiast because the tech was always evolving and getting better in interesting ways, but now even "midrange" phones are awesome and honestly more than enough for what most people use them for. And like you said, it's become more about what features you want/need like wireless charging, headphone jack, under screen fingerprint sensor, etc. Now with amps it seems like they are more or less the same just with different output power, whether it has Bluetooth, a balanced output, etc
I sold my topping A90 D90 stack for a Denafrips Ares 2 and a Burson Soloist 3x amp and yes once your reach that point in the price bracket the differences are very noticeable the Topping amps seem to be transparent and neutral and ride on a straight line no depth layers in n the music I was surprised how much of a difference the Burson Soloist 3x made opened up the music more now I enjoy music much more
(Almost like) commodities
@@Josh-os2px I believe thats how upgrade on dac/amps does to your system. The layering, separation and depth are the aspects that made the major difference. One will definitely hear that one day and theres no turning back
@@Josh-os2px lol for extra 1000$, i'd rather upgrade or get a new headphone. It goes to prove how weird hi-end dac/amp positions are now with all these amazing budget dac/amp
@@Centrioless you'll get more out of putting more money into your headphones, but then you'll get more out of your headphones with a better amp/DAC ;)
I've been through the whole journey. Basically all DACs & amps under $1000 sound the same. Why? To stay competitive, they all use the same chips and similar topologies. I compared Toppings to SMSL to other ESS DACs. No difference. After hearing a Schiit Yggdrasil, it was undeniable that the music was different. You could argue that as you spend more you end up "flavoring" the music more. Yeah, probably. I like chocolate more than vanilla, tho. :)
These measurements beyond -90dB are meaningless to our ears. They're improving on specs each year which are negligible improvements to the actual experience.
I love invisible color wavelengths
found your channel, love it
@@Lauren080508 I love you more!
Yeah, ultra-violet, and infra-red are super cool colors that humans can't see. :D
I'm so glad someone is calling out the fact that we're at the point now where everything sounds basically the same.
If you want a transparent amp and dac yes.
We've been at that point for awhile now..? Biggest difference is that they're mass-producing black boxes with better and better measurements even tho there's no audible improvements.
What's somewhat counter intuitive is that I've found more enjoyment out of "lesser" measuring R2R DACs. Things just sound more... "correct" in timbre to my ears.
A lot of the sub-$1000 DAC/amps all sound the same to me and are relatively "meh" despite having superb measurements. Do my favorite DACs add some color? Maybe, but to my ears it sounds more lifelike. Which is my goal anyways (sound reproduction).
@@asplmn Ye if you ask me, all delta sigma dacs sucks balls. Multibit/R2R dacs sound true to life and REAL like it should be.
@@asplmn Yeah this is the problem I find it too, but I'm a heavy bass head, so I love my heavy bass EQ.
As long as it sounds good to me and outputs the power I want why should one care?
@DMS So what's the cleanest high end Dac/Amp Setup?
You have the E50 in preamp mode. To put it in DAC mode , just hold the power button for 5 seconds and then it's at "full" volume.
Those other amps and dacs you're not excited about could work for a comparison video. If they sound really that close to each other it would be interesting to see what you could get away with on the cheapest side and which featues you get for the more expensive ones.
What I like from "clean" amps/dacs is that the choice to add color is entirely up to me. I can use a Tube pre, or an EQ or even a VST plugin when ever I want. Options enough. A "colouring" amp/dac can't be made "clean" sounding. For the reviewing bit, I totally get your point.
Well, there's this Nyquist-Shannon theorem saying and proving that you can convert continuous signal to discrete signal (in audio context PCM) and then back to continuous (what DAC does) and there's exactly one and perfect solution to it (perfect within spectral components under half the sampling frequency and quantisation losses (bit depth)).
And the DAC measurements are pretty much just evaluating how much the output differs from the one mathematically perfect solution.
And yea, even the cheap ones are now close within the margin of human hearing.
Though, ranking by one metric is certainly an oversimplification. Audibility of various aspects is not perfectly researched, and there are already cases where manufacturers are pushing the one notoriously ranked metric while sacrificing performance in other possibly more audible type.
You can only reproduce the analogue signal accurately from digital with an iir filter. In theory you would have to wait forever to hear the result. The practical solution is to use a fir filter which is not 100% accurate but close enough for most people.
@@tomas_m Well yeah, there's plenty of metrics to look at. But if all of them are about the same or all their values are below audible level, no reason to think it'll sound any different. Jitter, Linearity, SINAD (though honestly, you can get to like -60 dB ThD and still not fucking hear it), IMD, frequency response adjustments, mimatched output impedance.. Lots of things affect the sound.
My personal issue is when people make weird claims of audiophile magic like with cables or burn-in or whatever else, or talk about stuff that a DAC or amp literally does not do to the signal. Luckily that's mostly reserved for SBAF and Head-fi.
Good to know. I went a little outside my budget to buy a topping a50s last week. Glad to know it's hitting the limit of diminishing returns. If the high end wants to be more technical than practical I'm all for it.
I am so glad you touched on measurements vs an actual listening experience.. It is like mixing music in a DAW vs an analog console. In the DAW, we see the EQ parameters (Measurements) on an Analog Console, we use our Ears and HEAR and adjust the sound. I see people on certain sites devoted to measurements (love the sites too), but are trashing equipment solely on how they perceive the poor measurements and in many cases have NEVER heard the device. Some of this equipment is loved by those who own it and HAVE listened to it. Measurements have their place, but we don't sit down and listen to SNR or THD. We listen to music. Does the music we are hearing sound good??? If so, then it IS good despite whatever the measurements say.. Thank you.
We can start focusing on other things. It's all just a chain, we have perfected one piece of chain. How long have "audiophiles" wanted the "master" recording from the studio so they can hear it exactly as the engineer intended. This is just one step closer to that. It's not like the industry is taking away your tube amps or EQ or anything else that "colors" the reproduction of the music. If anything this is leveling the playing field and making it much more accessible to everyone. I would like a return of tone controls, I think this would be great since everyone's ears are different and preferences are different. A headphone amp with a few bands or PEQ built in would be awesome ( I think Minidsp makes one).
I could not agree more...I just purchased L50 amp because I wanted to see what more power would do to my HE4XX. I was using Zen DAC V2 with the new filter update before purchasing the L50. A_B listening between Zen DAC SE output vs. L50 fed by the Zen DAC's dac portion using a balanced output revealed to me the point you are making...L50 is great amp...neutral...clean...powerful enough to blow my HE4XX even at medium gain, BUT, the sound out of the Zen DAC SE output was "warmer"..."fuller"..."smoother" without any loss of resolution to my ear, and just more pleasing to my ear. Listening to the Zen DAC was like having a conversation with your close friend, whereas the sound from L50 was like listening to an informative lecture...both has its place, but more often than not, I want to talk to my friend...Great review...and thanks for making my new budget headphone audiophile journey more informed and enjoyable...I will be keeping both amps though, I think they will both serve their purpose down the line. Thanks again!
In the beginning, I thought you were going to say that you are sick of them. And it *should* be a rant. F, rant away. Keep ranting. It needs to be said ad-nausea. DAC/Amps and all the wanking that comes with it are annoying asf and have been for a few years now. It's so refreshing to hear you ask these questions because I thought I was the only one who is getting tired of it. Tired of obscure companies trying to send me stuff, tired of the stupid measurements, tired of the divisiveness. This segment of the market is oversaturated and it's just excessive and gimmicky at this point. All it is is companies taking advantage of unsuspecting buyers and that part of it is most certainly NOT okay. Most people who read this will know how I feel about it but it's nice that someone else is starting to point it out.
Don't worry its just another phase in the ever evolving world of audio, lol.
Hey stu how's your mama's spaghetti doing
@@lczp For me it is the meatloaf!
@@lczp It'S THE MEATLAOF!!!! 😂
@@harackmw You're darned tootin! lmao
Would love to see a youtube channel transition to controlled blind testing with gear from all price points and see what happens.
Dms and zeos did this in a video. They tangled the headphone cables and a/b a few items and they could tell em apart... Obviously they have trained ears but it was a neat watch.
I know this video is 2 years old now but I happen to be in the market for a new DAC/Amp (I want to upgrade from my 2 year old Schiit Modi/Magni stack) and I'm finding out exactly what was said in this video, and I'm glad to hear DMS say it here. I just ordered the Fiio K9 Pro and Aune S9C pro and the truth is I could barely distinguish between either of them and my Schiit stack. I had to A/B them to hear a difference, and even then the differences were INCREDIBLY MARGINAL. I was thinking that maybe my hearing just isn't that great, I am 42 yo, but after watching this...idk. Don't get me wrong, I DID hear differences. Without going into detail here...the bottom line is they both sounded SLIGHTLY better than my Schiit gear, but SLIGHTLY is the key word. I returned both of them, couldn't justify the price tags imo. I think I'm going to give Topping a try (probably the E70/L70 stack) just because I've never listened to any Topping gear, but idk. I'm thinking I may just end up sticking with the little Schiits. They work...really well.
That "audiophile color magic experience of the other amplifiers" where does it come from then?, harmonics? or other imperfections? anyway, if I understood well, audiophiles prefer a better sound coloring than a perfect fidelity sound.
yes, You have a monumental point when you differentiate between "high fidelity enthusiasts" and "audiophiles" it seems these 2 groups look for different things, not one being wrong.
I belong certainly in the high fidelity group, I want an amp completely accurate and transparent, and if possible the same for the headphones; what I want , is to listen a the perfect reproduction of the music as was recorded and mastered. Now if you put me in one of those coloring amps, i may agree may sound better, but the fact that i know there is an artificial factor there it will ruin the experience.
I understand your frustration as for the fidelity group, we are at the end point, what else you can review? I agree, but for the audiophiles the possibilities seems still endless...... of course until topping is able to put up an amp or DAC able to reproduce not only perfect fidelity but optional by software those imperfections...ups sorry "colorings" that the others have. lol
It was nice to see the Collab with Ant at 2:06.
Just like you said, I had been looking at amp reviews for a long time and finally figured that I would check the features I need first and then check the reviews. Got the Topping L30 because I really wanted a front switch to alternate between headphones and speakers without having to disconnect anything. Such a rare feature, listen to music on speakers, get a call and switch to headphone, call end switch back to speakers. I've been REALLY enjoying the L30 with Edifier R1280T and Koss kph30i with the grado pads. Thanks for all the great reviews.
Topping has always impressed me. Beyond just value for dollar! So so good. But I hear you. Stuff is getting so good that it's tough to tell the difference. At this point, these brands will have to start adding additional features to differentiate themselves beyond low SNR and high power.
You totally missed the point.
Those chifi amps ar all made with opamps by recepy with gobs of feedback and are desigend to measure well instead of sounding good.
@mariodrv Disagree. But you do you.😉
@@mariodrv We are in the space age. Do you really think that signal conversion and amplification is such a difficult problem at this point?
@@mariodrv agree I sold my topping A90 D90 stack and bought the Denafrips Ares 2 and Burson Soloist 3x amp and wow now am hearing stuff and depth layers in music makes me feel the music more. With the Topping A90 it pushed all the information up front so it seemed like you are getting alott of detail but it really did not add depth n layers very cold and antalictical sometimes too sharp. With my new setup I have more of a analogue warm textured sweet sound a holographic feel to the music. My daily drivers is the Arya's now it takes what's good from cans but tames the sibalance of the highs of the Arya's while adding layers and more detail the mids sounds more rounded also now am loving my Arya's even more
@@Josh-os2px did you do a proper blind test? otherwise your comparison is quite meaningless; there are so many listening bias in humans.
Nice ant at 2:05 haha :D
The thing is he has way too much stuff to keep inside so he keeps some stuff in the garden shed.
I filmed this B-roll outside haha
Ok, let's assume technology is mature now. The next step woud be miniaturization, improved user interface and integration. A lot to review the coming years, I suppose.
The audio quality of this particular video is great. I hope it stays like this.
I like the review, and I agree with your premise. However piggybacking on the above comment... 60hz hum is clearly audible in the track. This is best solved in your recording chain but is pretty easy to knock down in post with a notch filter. Your comments would seem more credible after solving this issue.
I'm surprised that there was no comparison to the L30 & E30. But I'm assuming that they don't sound much different judging by the theme of this video. I've been tempted to get this new stack but I already have the L30 & E30. I'm not gonna spend a little more if there's no audible difference
Waiting a comparison also to the 30' vs 50'..
There is no difference. The L30 and E30 are transparent. There is no need to upgrade unless you want other features, but at that point the diminishing returns are massive and all you get is a balanced output you wouldn't need and i believe a different screen on the e50.
It's perfect for studio guys like me who wants perfect precision without coloration.
So I use Sundara 2020 EQd into Topping L30 (149$ which technically measures even bit better than their high end almost 1000$ A90 only with less output power capabilities and possibly bit more crosstalk which is the only thing I think can be improved in those Topping Amps to achieve perfection in terms of clarity and separation 😉)
I've been in the market for a really transparent stack for quite a while now, but there is just so much choice and it changes constantly. So i've just been sticking with what i have
I agree, all this spec chasing that amp companies have done for the past 10 years has resulted in almost everything solid state sounding the same. I recently did an amp comparison with an A/B switch that let me instantly switch amps with no gaps or silence in the signal. What I found was interesting. I honestly couldn't tell the difference between most of my headphone amps, despite vastly different power/distortion figures. As long as the noise floor wasn't audible, it had enough power (
Rumor is that Ant-Man is a big fan of this L50 amp 🐜 🐜 🐜 🐜 🐜 🐜 🐜 🐜 🐜
I'm just glad we can get super accurate gear for not much money. Imagine if we could get monitors with incredible pro-grade color accuracy without spending a ton.
The speed of development among Chinese manufacturers was insane. We were used to European and American companies with some old guy in charge where marketing mumbo jumbo ruled the day.
Been using Topping’s electronics for a while and understand why neutrality may be unkind to a lot of recorded music. I also have a nice pair of efficient vintage speakers. I haven’t found the Topping amp and dac thin or harsh but the difference in recordings is huge. A little less transparency and a more lush mid and bass will save the poor records but also limits the lucidity of the good ones. Maybe I just got lucky assembling some old and new stuff I had sitting around but I’m hearing music now like I’ve never heard before. Too bad that the music recording business wasn’t better.
dude your video and audio are flat out on point. Love the rich texture of your mic ...
One of the reasons why I'm still staying with my Aune X7s. Yup, it doesn't measure well, it's not fully balanced, but it does sounds really nice & powers pretty much everything in my collection, rarely had to raise those tiny switches up to high gain.
There's a nice side effect of these continued stats wars. People don't often buy build quality or aesthetics if something has no other benefit. So, this keeps open a perceived niche for the high end, which tends to keep build quality paramount. I am cognizant I can't tell the difference between a JDS Atom and many of these higher end setups, but I would lament everything regressing to plastic cases and the like.
What about wood?
Would be Interested to see what you think about a very well measuring discrete amp like the sa1.
I also find that the topping/smsl and other opamp stuff sound identical. But then other products like the sa-1 which from a measurements perspective are basically identical. But subjectively sounds quite a bit better
The SA1 sounds great I agree. It’s a strange balance
I actually have owned an SA1 for months but have yet to review it.
@@DMS3TV oh nice! Looking forward to that one!
* off topic, I am waiting for your review of the SMSL D1se = )
Wondering what's the explanation for that, measuring the same but sound different?
Hey DMS could you review the singxer sa 1? Z gave it a great review and wanted to hear your thoughts on it
It’s going to get to a point where transparent equipment is going to be the norm for mass market audio. Colored equipment will be the expensive stuff
Yup it’s like a flip of what people wanted in the past. People wanted the music to be as accurate as possible. Now they want coloured.
I'm glad you made this video. I've felt the same way for a while. I've you have a clean amp and DAC the only raisin to switch if for features. Do I've just been looking at tubes and other colored devices to get my desired sound. Glad that it's normal. It seems like everyone always talks about how well things measure and they discouraged things that don't measure as well.
You can set the DAC to not be in preamp mode. That way you don't need to adjust the volume level out.
I guess it goes to show that measurements are not the be-all and end-all that there is a lot more going on in listening to music and evaluating equipment.
You hav helped me decide on this amp ..transparent for my mixing. And amazingly priced for what it is especially used....
Everything’s becoming so good that it’s boring to review it all
We actually need these kinds of product to be a reliable benchmark. And at a very affordable price point. So that a normal consumer can experience at least 70 to 80% of the audiophile headphone experience, when they are not ready to spend few thousands of dollar on audio. Just like the HD6xx. Then they can start their hifi journey from here and upwards when they are ready.
Got to say I recently bought a Topping x Shenzenaudio EX5 and I can't see myself ever replacing it.
As someone who has casually window shopping h Amp/DAC combos for my future hifi setup, I appreciate the candor and reflection on the state of the art in signal chains.
Sold state, tubes, hybrid…a flavor is out there everyone 🥳
My problem is I hear sibilance (sp?) in my topping DX3 pro +.. (with Hifiman Sundara's and even in my Sennheiser 560s) And honestly, at this point, I'll take whateverI have to get a decent sound without the harshness that comes with it after about an hour of listening. This combo is pretty cheap now. Should I try these out? Or maybe I'll be fine with the much cheaper SMSL C200 Dac/amp? or am I just crazy?
I dont get your point…
The ultimative Goal must be a DAC/Amp the is transparent - just as the artists intended the Music to Sound
Anything Else is just your personal preference….
What amp would you recommend for the Focal Elegia? I have a JDS Labs Atom stack but want to experience something that will color the sound of a relatively neutral headphone for around the same price.
Good rant, loved the editing flair at 7:45. Would love if you made a video discussing 'fun' headphones. I'm looking for headphones that if I showed to a SO or family member, they'd understand why I care about db, frequency graphs and why my bank account is so low.
Why not show them a cheap pair of headphones with not-so-good sound signature and compare it to your neutral/Harman target/any headphones you deem good for an audiophile?
Dude thanks for this review. I currently only have a Motu M2 and have been saving for a good sub $300 amp. Your rant actually made me kind of excited for this amp because I know it will be a good starting point for me to explore other amps and have a good reference point for what they're doing.
Hi, can you tell me how good is the Motu M2?
@@octaviodiaz938 fucking amazing. It's clean as hell and super functional
How's L30/E30 vs L50/E50- ? unbalanced vs balanced? can you hear the difference?
The L50 has balanced inputs, but is a single ended amplifier. The 4 pin xlr is simply for convenience. The balanced inputs provide a 4 volt signal which push the amplifier harder which helps create those 3watts at 32ohms. The L30 needs 3+volts to create that which is why its spec sheet is misleading as majority of single ended RCA outs from DACs only supply 2 volts. The e50/l50 stack is kind of a redo of the e30/l30 stack.
This legit man was my favorite video you've done, in a long time. No offense to anything prior, but you know, you kept it real and I respect that. Listen, it's time those companies realize that yes, stuff measures exceptional now. But, let's now implement into the sound something that takes listening experience to another level, either class A output stages more often (in dac's and yes, some more amps themselves), even an occasional tube output stages (in a dac), maybe even reach back, and grab a couple classic dac chips or namely, some classic or high performance op amps, like the sparkos, and put it in more dacs and amps (if you gotta charge smidge more, fine, charge us). Heck, maybe try some multibit or r2r (smsl/topping), for bit more of a affordable price. Even maybe try and see if they even get a hold of some of those HiFiman (another Chi-Fi company) r2r chips they just created, THAT DO MEASURE EXTREMELY GREAT, and implement it into a dac. But yeah, they need to get more creative, and give us more variety on the presentation of these devices. Pushing for more enjoyment and/or more natural/realistic, vs just no color, and perfect measurements. Nice vid. 👍🏼
And this is Jmt
Trying to find an AIO Dac/Amp for HD800S and THX-00’s. I’m torn between Matrix Mini 3, Monolith THX, RME Pro FSR and the DX7 Pro. Or any other similar all in one that would match well with some headroom.
I use the Singxer SA1 with my hd800s and I think it sounds fantastic
I have the MA mini-i pro3 with HD800S and its sounds just right to me and i have tryed Topping A90/D90 MQA compo too but this is better just more lively and smoother :D
It's better than good, it's as good as you can get !. It's the same with amps, dacs and digital cameras, they are all now superb. HiFi has matured to a point that it's the price to performance that is the main goal, and Topping and SMSL are delivering that in spades. So called hi-end can now be had for peanuts !. I wonder what direction they will go in the future, maybe active speakers would be a good way.
I mean, it does make sense that you've probably got used to distortion-polluted music for years and that's what you like. It's all fine. Audio gear has been like that for a long time. You can just keep buying the distortion-dirty gear. I however prefer that science helps audio industry to develop and that the engineering of the audio gear goes forward, and makes gear actually, finally measure well. I personally like to listen to the clean music signal itself and not my headphone amp's distortion and noise.
the review I was looking for! just perfect ! thanks!
Would you prefer the hd 560s on an Asgard 3 or a Valhalla 2. And how would you compare the 6xx to these amps too. And if you could only pick one combo for both gaming (FPS) and music (jazz, hip hop, and classical) which would you pick?
I just bought a THX 789 amp at $199. and its... meh. definitely clearer and sharper than the Liquid Spark I owned, but... nothing special really. If that's the way amps are going, why upgrade? What difference does it really make?. Amps goal now, I think, shoud be to add depth and soundstage, and to give this enjoyable sound that make you feel things inside cause of the music you're listening to.
You just described the Burson Soloist 3x amp my dude buy one
many amps make music enjoyable, the thx789 is not one of them
what you want also exactly sounds like what tube amps do... look into a schiit valhalla (just not if you have a planar magnetic headphone)
@@Josh-os2px Worth getting? What about the Funk?
How does this compare to the L30/E30 stack?
Interesting video. Seems like at the end of the day, if you are looking for budget clean amps there's just so many options at different price point. All you really need to look at is form factor and brand, like I love my Element II and want to support JDS Labs. Would be great if you can make a video or a list of amps that stand out to you so that people can see more colored options.
Bought the E50 DAC out of the blue for my 'not lowend' stereo system, good to hear it doesn't color the sound. That's exactly what i wanted. Using it for tidal hifi+
Totally agree with you. They all sound the same which is perfectly good. I own an a90 which is great as I use it for headphones and iems at my work desk. I colour it’s sound with a bifrost2 . However, I also own a class A rebel amp and feliks audio echo2 tube amp for a more euphonic experience. There is no point reviewing all these products but equally it’s a great time to be in the hobby if you need amp/dac
What about the one box solution called the EX5? It’s half as much as this stack and just as good. Amir and his audioscience reviews have taken a page out of Julian Hirsch’s book. It’s a good thing because it sets a base standard for all equipment that measures well and that really helps those on a budget - they can now get good equipment cheap. It’s a bad thing too, for it kills “the chase” and does not help distinguish the great from the good.
Take your guitar and plug it into a VOX AC30 then take the same guitar and plug it into a JCM 800. They sound different. Now take the same guitar and plug it into an amplifier that measures well (most likely it’s solid state). It may not be as enjoyable as either the AC30 or JCM. Why? Don’t ask me, I don’t know enough. Maybe it’s because we don’t just listen with our ears. We listen with our minds?
As far as measurements go, once you cross a certain threshold you have to go to Double Blind Listening tests. Tube amplifiers generally will not measure as well as these new generation DACs and AMPs but BECAUSE they are coloured they may be preferred to these new amps/dacs.
I think it’s great that the recent amps are clean, completely neutral. Use different headphones for the color!
In the grand scheme of things electronics are electronics. Once they are below a certain point, they are effectively out of the picture as far as tonality and SQ go, which is a good thing. Means you don’t have to worry about something reactive altering the frequency response of the amp or variable tonality with power or load impedance, not to mention no distortion. Out of curiosity I decided to plug my low impedance headphones directly into my speaker amplifier I designed (stupid don’t do it) and, no surprise, it sounded exactly the same as my Shiit Magni Heresy with the exception of volume, which got REALLY loud REALLY FAST, obviously. But it shows that they are both transparent. Edit: One should not expect electronics to sound “different” fwiw. Every time I have had something electronic and solid state sound different, it was do to something being wrong. It’s a good check to make to be sure all is well.
I'm at the point to where dacs should have distinctive intentional sound signatures like amps do. We have perfected the clean Dac.
Well done with this review, finally someone who is talking the truth about the sound of the dacs and amps, the transparent sound "called colorless" all sounds the same, so if anyone wants to get a better sounding dac and amp combo just put some buffer in between like a good pre-amplifier with tubes and tone controls and keep the actual amp and dac you have ;)
Isn't that the point, to have a amp and dac that does not colour the sound? To hear artists true intentions how it should sound.
I've been thinking something very similar to 8:43. Fortunately for me, the original D90 wasn't/hasn't been available, so I've been hanging steady with my E30. So I at least I'll be able to pivot now and just upgrade to the E50 instead, to save (a lot of) money.
Is there a comfortable amount of volume control for these to power highly sensitive IEMs, on top of my power hungry cans? Or should I just get the IEMagni/Modi stack? Thank you for the video.
Love the video. Can you make one on the differences between the cables? :):):)
I couldn't agree more....I know i'm late to comment but recently I bought the K7, THX Certified, newer chipset, amazing reviews, etc.... All I've been using is a Hidzis S8 dongle DAC and an inexpensive Fosi tube amp......man, I'm short changing myself, right? Wrong. After days of comparison there was NO difference, none, zip, nadda. Blindfold yourself and choose a dac/amp combo in this price range or below and you're good, done...over...that's it. Anyone else who says otherwise has fallen for the placebo effect. It's fun...but it is what is is.
You should make a list of all the same sounding dac\amp stacks and tell people to buy whichever is available at the lowest price. It'd save some people a lot of confusion since most people don't have access to all of them and spend hours on message boards trying to convince people that THEIR stack is the one they should have bought, not the other one. Frankly I'm out of the measurements matter camp. I no longer care what the measurements are, tube amps measure like crap but man they can sound so good! And for solid state I tend to prefer a slightly warmer class A sound. The clinical very good measuring amps are ok but don't do much for me. Neither my smsl sp200 and magni heresy are my favorites. (I like the heresy a bit more than the sp200). Now I'm shopping around looking at the Lyr, Jotunheim, Darkvoice, etc. Haven't decided where to jump next just yet.
Hi buddy great review, I want to buy a stack like this, I just don't like the LCD color.
I have my sights on the SMSL SU-8S and the SMSL SH-8s, how does this compare to those? Had you had the chance to compare this set? I like the features of the SMSL SU8S stack.
I would really appreciate your opinion? My Headphone at this point is the sennheiser HD 599SE, but the HD6XX is the next purchase.
Keep making these awesome reviews, I really enjoy your work.
Great review. I guess it's time like this, my poor hearing, will save me money.
I'm considering replacing my son's gamer headphones(turtle elite pro) with a or of559's - just off the top of your head, would the 559 be good as a general headphone for that... (I'd need an adapter for the plug..?) Thanks
I actually have that problem with every DAC and Amp I try. The first DAC and Amp I had were the A30 and D30 (the old ones, not the new). And then I upgrades to the A50 and D50s and thought "They will be better than what I have now". But there was no difference at all (imho), so I basically wasted my money. I then replaced my Topping A50 with a Rebel Audio Amp (500€ Solid State Amp) but I don't really hear a difference. It's weird because everyone says "The Rebel Amp is so good, it sounds amazing." but I don't really feel that way. It's not a bad Amp by any means. It looks beautiful, has good power and sounds good, it's just that I don't really think it's an improvement over the A50. I want to upgrade to something completely different like the Denafrips Ares 2 (R2R DAC) or a tube amp (like the Feliks Audio Echo Mk. 2). I can hear clear differences between Headphones and IEM's but when it comes to DAC and Amps, I can't. I am really hoping for that moment where I try a new DAC or Amp and be like "Ah, THERE is the difference". Cheap Audio Man made a review about the Denafrips Ares 2 and said "I didn't really believe in differences between DACs until now". I really, really hope I will have the same experience If if test it out. But as long as I can't hear the difference, I feel like it doesn't matter which DAC or Amp I use and that drives me mad.
If it makes you feel any better, I also can't tell dac/amps apart. I'm not deaf because every headphone sounds painfully different, but sources are all the same. Even when I thought I could hear a difference, I did some blind testing and it turned out it was all placebo.
Perhaps in the right circumstances (perfect silence, quick and silent A/B switching, a clear and relaxed mind) I could tell the difference between some decent sources, but even if I could, the difference is obviously so small that I can't be bothered anymore.
@@allydea Yeah and if you're finally able to hear the difference the question arises "is it worth the money?"
Yo I had a D30 and a 30 at home, compared them to the D50s and A50.
I heard a big difference between them. So much so that a month later I replaced the system. Before the new year, I had the opportunity to listen to the D30 Pro and A30 Pro at home. I'll be buying them soon.
I like the ant crawling across at 2:05.
Theres a ant or a bug on your amp. Seems the amp is not that clean :D
I have been wanting an A90 Amp for the longest time but am really struggling with the $500 price tag and they almost never go on a decent special. I have HD800S, Beyer T1, HD650 (original) and was considering potentially a LCD-X, trying to decide if I perhaps go the A50 instead?
Did you go A50 in the end? I struggle to drop this kind of money on Topping since I’ve had products from them die within a year. Same with SMSL.
@@tcc5750 No, I went with the A90. I found it on a 'sort of' special and decided if I bought the A50 which is probably totally fine, I'd always wonder what it would have been like with the A90.
I tried other headphone amps that tested well, but were harsh (eg: Geshelli Archel 2 Pro). I ended up with the Lake People G111 and it has the power, space, clarity, and smoothness that I've been looking for. So, each of us knows the sound he or she wants. We just have to search until we find it. Thank heaven for ebay and Amazon return that we can clear our shelves of the leftovers.
Ok, but what about just an amp, no dac? Best for pairing with Dave with no signal loss?
Between ifi Signature One vs Topping E50 which DAC has more enjoyable sound signature and better soundstage?
Bought a Topping E30 DAC, no noticeable difference with Presonus Eris 3.5 speakers. Is a DAC worth it in this setup?
What are the important purposes of reviews is point out deficiencies in equipment such as the IEMagni which has the gain setting on the back which is a bit of a deal breaker for me.
What about technicalities? I.e soundstage detail resouloution etc do they sound the same as well? What amps, dacs would you recommend for really improving technicalities rather than adding colour to sound?
If you want better technicalities, I would recommend better recordings.
If DAC/amp fidelity is currently at 98%, then headphones are at 25%. So if you are after technicalities, then you're going to get more out of a better headphone than any Dac or amp.
TAD DA1000 or TX or something with a master clock for a DAC, class A vintage amps or high-end Accuphase/Luxman/esoteric integrated amps with optimized headphone outs will slay any dedicated headphone amp lol
Thanks for the review and for 21:9 aspect ratio. I think it's great that there's basically no need to get A90 when there's L50. I'm gonna stick to my JDS EL Stack for now because I love the looks and the huge knob, I doubt that I'll be able to tell the difference between JDS amps and these "better" measuring Toppings.
The amp/dac should sound transparent. You can use EQ to add the color you like for each headphone. Buying a separate dac/amp for each headphone just to color them is just silly and very expensive.
that's the POINT of amplifiers. to amplify and feed power. that's what HI FI means. high fidelity. if it colors the sound, it's LOW fidelity. by definition.
a true audiophile is someone who wants high fidelity. a pretentious audiophile, which unfortunately is the vaaast majority, is one who wants expensive audio trinkets which sound as good as he/she wants (i.e. thinks)
and that's also the magic of perfectly flat perfectly measuring components: you don't need 50 of them, you only need one and DSP to color the music as much as you like
How's the Little Dot MKIII vs Darkvoice or Dot MKI?
Is there a difference for hd650/6xx?
AND what about balanced- is there a real difference ?
There is also xduoo series like TA26..
Would be interesting to do tube amp comparison
Kind of a late comment, but I need something for a condo, so I dug out my senn hd600 and kind of looking for something portable, sounds good and allows me to stream from my phone. I need a bit of time to make an educated decision. I’ll search your channel, but I’m interested that color you’re talking about. I don’t want strained ears.
Ordered a Monolith Liquid Platinum and a Geshelli J2 recently. Not sure if I went overboard.
Can you please elaborate on the A50s being more aggressive compared to this? I'll be listening to HD 660S and HD 800S. Thank you
Great point. Appreciate your point of view.
It also seems to me that the iFi DAC is similar: it has a clear sound-not warm nor cold-and is very matter of fact in presenting the music, in a way that is straight forward but not especially exciting or charming.
i have this E-50 Dac and love it ...But i hate the no volume. knob and mainly use it with my studio monitors all my headphones are wireless is the L-50 worth it t o me ? and with the knob control the Dac...thanks
A piece of wire with gain is all an amplifier should do. Add color any way you like.
I generally agree. My favorite amp is a JDS labs atom for that very reason.
Can't they just build it a one unit? Instead of stacking and connecting with double the buttons and switches
How does the L30\E30 compares to the L50\E50
And how do they compare to the FX Audio DAC-X6 MKII?
I think there’s a third aspect here that you haven’t mentioned. You talked about today’s “best measuring” amps that sound excellent, and separately colorful (very small amounts of added 2nd + 3rd order distortion plus uncorrelated noise, i.e. tube plus some class-A) amps, but you left out the part that today’s lowest distortion and most perfect measuring amps may well have problems we don’t typically measure.
Like?
Electrical signals and sound waves aren't really a mistery. The trickiest thing I can imagine is intermodular distortion, but that's already measured.
Those "other mysterious things" seem to be old school companies trying to find something to brag about in a vain attempt of recovering the prestige.
I'm convinced we haven't yet figured out how to measure most of the qualities that actually make an amp enjoyable. THD and SINAD at their best just tell us that the signal isn't going to be dirty
@@GlitzPixie have you ever thought that the recording itself most likely is the worst part of whatever gear you listen it on?
@@dagnisnierlins188 definitely
I am using a Dt1990 with an Mayflower Arc Amp/Dac.
The headphones are getting plenty volume i am max at 1 or 2 o'clock when i am hearing music at loud volume.
Im now wondering would it even be an "upgrade" to buy something like an modi/magni stack or something from topping?
And when yes, what would be an "upgrade" for my dt1990?
Thanks.