Q: In your mind do you think the officers that prolonged the Mk14 debacle should have been punished? In my mind their malfeasance caused hundreds of American servicemen to lose their lives, life in prison would be my starting point.
Q. you are given the opportunity to save Warspite from the breakers, but only by keeping her in active service. How would you go about Imperium Man'ing her into the modern age.
Did many of the submariners actually put the torpedos into contact fuse only? It seems they had the option fairly early on buy they chose to continue trying the magnetic fuse. And they did go to contact only how did they work?
How did the Italian navy perform ASW operations? Did they have a more effective ship or tactic one of the other WW2 powers didn't have? Or where they struggling just as much as Japan?
One of the funniest submarine stories I've heard was after the USS Tang got a new captain and started to prepare for a dive, and it was only once they were all inside and shut the hatch that they realized the captain was still up on the conning tower. They quickly retrieved him and he deadpanned "I'm getting the sense you boys don't like me."
@@bara922 in all probability you have it right. I just checked the Wikipedia entry for O'Kane, and it says he was a 'plank owner'(Navy slang for being in her commissioning crew). Quote:"He(O'Kane) placed her (Tang) in commission in October, 1943 and commanded her for her entire career"
"I'm pretty sure at this point Commanders thought loading themselves into the tubes and launching themselves at enemy ships would be more effective." -Dr Alexander Clarke, the Battles of Narvik video
@@fguocokgyloeu4817 Not enough motivation to propel themselves to take advantage of that characteristic. Otherwise they would have motivated themselves to design a proper torpedo. Plus unreliable detonators and navigation means they either explode before they get to the target, ran aground or veer off in the wrong direction only to somehow hit the ship that deployed them... Because the sailors 'tampered' with the nav when they specifically said not to. That makes them angry.
For those interested in the US Navy submarine campaign, Thunder Below by Admiral Eugene B. Fluckey is must read. He was the commander of the USS Barb, the only submarine to sink a train.
To be fair however, Thunder Below is NOT the story of the early hard trials of the submarine campaign but rather the wild and aggressive final stage. Where, you know, submarines are sinking trains and practicing ballistic missile attacks on the Japanese Islands.
Agreed wholeheartedly! I'm also a big fan of "Clear the Bridge!" by RAdm. Richard H. O'Kane. I'm struggling to finish "Sink 'Em All" by Adm. Charles Lockwood. It's filled with interesting logistical information, but Adm. Lockwood wasn't as lively as writer as either Fluckey or O'Kane ... at least in my opinion. For having such a fiery temper, I would have expected a more interesting read.
Drach did other videos about this topic about 2.5 years ago and 9 months ago: _The Mark 14 Torpedo - Failure is Like Onions_ and _The USN Pacific Submarine Campaign - The Dark Year (Dec'41 - Dec'42)_ . The behaviour of Navy ordnance was abysmal.
imagine being a torpedo bomber pilot and having to fly low and level. you launch your torpedo after managing to not get shot out of the sky and the stupid thing doesn't even detonate.
@@Jacen436987 They used TBF's as glide bombers to attack shipping rather than their actual intended role in '43. Not surprised given the munitions they were dealing with.
In the 80s I was stationed on the namesake of USS Silversides SS-236, USS Silversides SSN-679. We had and used the diving alarm from the original Silversides.
So we could have sunk 4 carriers in two days without risking any capital ships? Wow. I knew the Mark 14 had cost us a lot of merchant kills, but I didn't know it was this bad.
Worse than that, during the earlier months of the war various submarines had opportunities at multiple small Japanese task forces where the deficiencies of the Mk.14 prevented many kills. Especially tragic is the stories of the s-boats based in the Philippines when attacking Japanese forces during the Invasion, or those submarines near Wake Island, while the marines were holding out.
Usually it's hyperbole to claim that one weapon or another would have shortened/lengthened the war. The Mark 14 was so bad I'm not the least bit hesitant to say it lengthened the war in the Pacific.
Great video. My great-Uncle was one of those lost aboard the USS Grampus. He was only 18 years old and was on his first cruise. The Grampus has not been found and mystery surrounds her loss as the Japanese units thought responsible, were themselves sunk shortly thereafter.
Hi Drach, just FYI the video's description says "(Jan'42 - Jun'42)" rather than 1943. As an aside, Wahoo herself ALSO experienced a torpedo stuck in one of her forward tubes (as a result of a test being run that O'Kane would have stopped had he known, but his original skipper had chosen a poor arrangement of watches etc, one that O'Kane wrote prevented acting as an effective Exec). There's a funny element to it, however. She'd advised the relevant authorities in her message on reaching the 1,000 mile line from Pearl that she'd need a port mooring. On arrival, however, they found they'd been given a starboard one at Pier 1 with a bunch of dignitaries, well-wishes and a band present. The following message was sent: HAVE POSSIBLY ARMED TORPEDO PROTRUDING TO STARBOARD STILL RECOMMEND PORT SIDE MOORING Apparently that caused quite the exodus, LOL. This was in mid-October '42. Taken from "Part Two FIRST PATROL In the Carolines" in O'Kane's book "Wahoo". Cheers
@@danielgregg2530 The source is mentioned at the end of my post. I have a hard copy of each of O'Kane's books ("Wahoo" and "Clear the Bridge"; required reading for anyone interested in WW2 submarine warfare), plus both are on my kindle. Cheers
"Which would technically make him the first Adept of the Mechanicus." Praise the Omnissiah! The humor throw in with the historical records is just top-tier!
This is excellent joke, but frankly, first Adept of the Mechanicus should forever be Magos Rejewski and Magos Turing, the great minds behind the Bombe against Enigma.
Glad the Silversides got a mention. Like many Cub Scouts in the early 90s, I got to spend a night on her and since my dad organized the trip they let him and I sleep in the captain's quarters! And like Drach said she's still here in West Michigan, at Muskegon. If you're in the area it is well worth a visit to see this legendary war hero!
I went there with the Boy Scouts in 2004, joined the submarine force in '12, then went back to the Silversides after my first deployment in '16. The tour guide took my dad and I into the off limits areas, mainly the conning tower and the forward portion of the torpedo room.
The Silversides was known as an incredibly rowdy boat -- its wonderful that she survived and was preserved. The scrapping of the USS Barb was a tragedy -- that boat should absolutely have been preserved.
Also in the late 90s, I took a bunch of scouts for an overnight stay on the Silversides. There was a VCR in the galley to help pass the time, so I rented "Run Silent, Run Deep" at my local video store. The kids all complained - they wanted Star Wars or something more to their liking. That is until the movie began and the sub in the movie was the same as Silversides. Everything was the same. Totally cool.
Excellent video, Drach, thank you. Really loving this series. As an FYI, US subs had no doctors or surgeons on board at the time [ don't have any idea if they do today ]. The appendectomy performed on board Silversides was performed by a Pharmacist's Mate First Class named Thomas Moore, the senior medical 'officer' on board, who had zero surgical background or experience prior to the appendectomy. I remember reading about this many moons ago. According to Wikipedia, the operation was performed with improvised tools, but I can't confirm that.
U.S. submarines still don't have doctors on board. They have 1 "Doc" who is an independent duty corpsman (IDC) thats it. That being said... our doc took care of us better than any actual doctor I saw while I was in, up to and including some things that should probably have had guys lifeflighted off the boat.
He did. The Silversides is in Michigan, and I went there for Boy Scouts. They have a book about her tours, and there's pictures of him using carpenter's tools to perform the surgery. His nurses were an electrician and an engine man.
According to the book "dive below" i believe it was done with whatever cutlery or sharpish utensils they had, however i may be wrong, i read the book a little while ago already..
As the son of an ex-sub officer I want to thank you for this series, Drach. All of that archival footage you found is great. I could also detect when you were referencing Clay Blair's excellent "Silent Victory" 2-volume set. I highly recommend it to anyone wanting a deep dive (pardon the pun) into the subject.
As a bubblehead myself, I love these videos. These men are legends in our community to this day. We pick and read a passage from 'Thunder Below' when we qualify submarines.
Obsoletely not. That is ridiculous. Kamchatka would go out of it's way to design the best weapon for dealing with Japanese torpedoes boats, and would never touch that flaming hot dumpster fire.
The design was as good as someone explicitly barred from doing tests by congress could manage, to be fair: the low budget meant the torpedoes were designed for small scale, limited production runs, meaning fixing and producing them was a pain in the ass, and what testing was done by Newport was worthless at best due to misused testing equipment. By contrast, the Mark 15 type torpedo got most of the pre-war effort into fixing it, and it seems to have done okay; at least until the plant meant to make up production shortfalls in the summer of 1943 caused it's own multitude of problems...
Anyone not aware of it should search for the series Silent Service. Several of the stories mentioned here are enacted in the various episodes. This was great coverage of that time frame and brings together a lot of data rather than just the individual stories so you can have a much better understanding of the situation with the submarine service.
----- I think I will watch this about 5 more times and I will learn something new each time. This is just FREAKING BRILLIANT !!! If there were an Oscar for online content (and there should be) this series would easily win.
Thanks for mentioning the Silversides is a museum ship. My dad served on her for her last 3 patrols. He lived that time in the navy, the start of a 22 year career. When he passed, I was fortunate to be able to have his ashes scattered at see from the nuclear powered attack boat Silversides.
Silversides is well worth the visit if you ever happen to be close, as well as LST 393 just up the lake. SS Badger is a short drive up the coast, a former rail ferry now converted to automobile duty and still running triple expansion steam engines, at least for now.
I've been on the SS Badger several times. I love that ferry! It's a convenient way of avoiding Chicago when you just want to get from Michigan to Wisconsin and vice versa.
My Great Grandfather Edgar Arthur LaCombe III was a machinist mate aboard the Sargo Class Submarine USS SAURY SS-189 During WWII ('41-'44). He was supposed to be stationed on the WAHOO and he knew every man that was on her from sub school, but he was so adamant about getting on a sub that when the chance to get on an older sub (SAURY) he took it. When he learned that WAHOO was lost on patrol he never forgave himself for all of his brothers that died, he never talked about it much.
A line from Peter Hart's "Gallipoli" seems appropriate when discussing the MK14 torpedo debacle. ". . . if they typified any . . . trait, it was a lunatic persistence in the face of the obvious."
Drach's robot voice goes: "that's it for this video" , i goes " oh, noooo!". Sterling work and another charming, exceedingly interesting video...very well narrated! Thank you! Can't wait for the next episode....if i weren't already a naval war buff these videos would turn me into a new one!
Your intuitive and sometimes humorous details of the narrative coupled with strict attention to detail have me looking forward to your next addition. My dad was a Sonar man First Class in the Pacific aboard a escort destroyer so I’m particularly interested in this portion of the war. Thank you.
The aforementioned USS Argonaut was the WWI era also known as the USS Argonaut (i). My father served on the USS Argonaut (ii), ss-475, Tench Class, cousin to the Balao and Gato Classes. My father's 1st ship was the USS Kittywake Submarine Rescue Vessel. His 2nd boat was the USS Flying Fish, ss-229, Gato Class.
Wow. My dad also served on the Argonaut (circa 1953-4) after serving on destroyers in Korea. He was the engineering officer, and I think his next sub was the Tench herself.
My grandfather served on USS argonaut after it was sold to Canada and renamed HMCS Rainbow 75 (trout fish not rain phenomenon) he was part of the commissioning crew in 1968.
I appreciate you only covering 6 months of this campaign here. thanks for the good work. I've read dozens of books on the subject but, can never seem to get enough
I read the book "Silversides" and I heartily recommend it! The captain and crew felt awful every time they missed or a torpedo failed to explode, they were risking their lives every time they dived and combat made it even worse, but to have your weapon fail was downright frustrating. The crew knew who to blame and the captain made the point very clear every time they returned to Pearl Harbor. But again and again he and the other captains were told they were wrong and it was probably their fault. The first two years of WW2 in the Pacific, was basically wasted and the loss of subs and their crews was criminal. Add to this waste the potential damage to the Japanese navy, plus it gave the Japanese time to improve their defenses.
My dad took me to tour the Silversides when she was docked at Navy Pier in Chicago. She was still in service and looking through her scopes was definitely the highlight for a kid. Great video Drach.
After some experimentation, in the early-mid 30s the USN settled on a multi-step evolutionary path starting with the Porpoise class that led to WW2's work-horse Gato and Balao class boats. Boats of classes later in the evolutionary path would be similar in appearance to Gatos. The 3"/50 was selected, at least partially, to discourage engaging escorts. As these proved inadequate, they were variously replaced with 4"/50s from retired S-boats or 4-pipers or 5"/25s from surface ships as those were replaced with the famous 5"/38s. The Mark XIV only had 3 major flaws: running too deep; a magnetic exploder that seldom worked; a contact exploder that didn't work reliably. Those defects aside, it was a marvel.
Even with the paltry budget they had in the '30s, they could have non-destructively tested the depth controller and had that fixed. Same for the magnetic exploder, the testing would have had to be a bit more expensive in recording gadgetry, but it could have been done. Nothing would have answered the contact exploder testing besides actual impacts, so we can understand (but not forgive) their hesitance. But two (not one) categories of warships relied on these as their big punch: subs and destroyers. Not testing their operation and lethality should have been a dereliction-of-duty offense. But then, we gave MacArthur the Medal of Honor in 1942.
It appears you consulted George Girder's wonderfully entertaining and well-written book, "War Fish," the first book I ever read on submarine warfare and still a treasured part of my military history collection. The best German companion work is Herbert Werner's "Iron Coffins," also a first-hand story about the rise and fall of the U-Boats.
Awesome you focused on Silverside's 4th Patrol. I gave tours on the old girl in 2014-2017. She is still there in Muskegon, MI! As a side note the Shark I was lost in February 1942, not 43. In any case, thank you for focusing on a critical period of the US Submarine Force in ww2
@@Drachinifel You would also be surprised how many Navy history buffs Ive met who get the Wartime losses of both Shark I (Porpoise-Class) and Shark II (Balao-Class) mixed up. One in February 1942, and two in November 1944. Their namesake is what mixes them up.
I've always found it ironic my second ship DDG-77 USS O'Kane was named after a very famous sub skipper. Half our mission is hunting and killing subs while on a ship named after someone who was really good at turning surface ships into submarines... One thing I learned early on as an engineer well 2 things but they are pretty related. 1 EVERY ship can be a submarine..once... 2. You're never "mostly" more than a mile from land... If you are confused as to how those 2 can be related then Naval matters aren't going to be your thing.
I’m so glad you did the story about USS Silversides, I slept overnight on that sub with my dad when I was in boyscouts as a kid. Hope your feeling better Drach! Thanks for the video!
I am a Michigan citizen and have been to the Silversides museum multiple times, it’s an incredible experience and a sticker follows me every day to work on my clipboard
My respect, and sympathy, for Submariners from all sides in WW2 has no bounds, I cant imagine the horror of being confined in a small, claustrophobic and smelly space like a submerged sub while people on the surface drop high explosives on you. Even worse the slow descent to the depths after being attacked and damaged knowing that crush depth approaches and there's nothing you can do. Brave doesn't begin to describe them.
I agree, but I would much rather be in a submarine than a battleship or even a destroyer. they are smaller targets, and I prefer a stealthy hit and run approach.
@@bradenhagen7977 I don't think being on a warship in general gave high odds of survival in that era. The best off were the carrier crews, but the rest...
My father, Jennings B. Rogerson, served aboard the USS Gato SS-212. He told me and my brother about all the trouble the sub force was having and how it caused several narrow escapes. To this day I can't understand how my dad wasn't more disturbed by his silent service. He was always calm and collected, a man at peace with himself.
I'd read about the ineptitude of the Bureau of Ordinance, but this video showed the disaster that can result from egos that can't admit that they're wrong. Nice video, as usual.
Nicely done sir. I am anxiously hoping that you do an episode centered on Richard O'Kane and the USS Tang. I have read both his books - Wahoo and Clear The Bridge - and recently visited him @ Arlington this summer. His war patrols truly deserve to be shared.
Saw the Silversides last Christmas with my 4 and 8 year old nephews. It's a great museum ship, probably the best museum ship normalized for distance from the sea. Thousand miles away from salt water!
I can relate to their frustrations... Been playing a lot of War on the Sea as the US and Im playing with duds on. I had a perfect shot at a Nagato class BB. Launched 10 torpedoes with just about perfect spread... 9 duds. 1 missed and hit the ship behind it. It was the only one to detonate but barely even scratched it because it was a Kongo class BB and it hit right on the torpedo defenses. She didnt even slow down. I was _furious._
Terrific video. It was reading my dad's copy of "Clear the Bridge!" that sent me down a lifelong interest in not just WW2 naval history but the history of warfare in general.
Using a generator to power the electronics on the Mark 14 utterly boggles the mind. A generator uses rotating magnetic fields to produce electricity, and you are doing this right next to a mechanism that explodes the torpedo when the magnetic fields it detects fluctuate enough...
I've read both of O'kane's books, and can't recommend them enough. His accounts of Wahoo and Tang are both fascinating. Hard to believe what those guys accomplished in those fleet boats. You have to wonder how much shorter the war would have been if the mk14 actually worked. I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to stalk a target for days avoiding detection, finally get the perfect angle of attack, and just hear your torpedo thud against the enemy hull.
Really, really enjoyed this one - well, bit hair raising at times! - but one of my favourites so far. Great Drachisms, especially. Thank you, and looking forward to more. :)
Run silent, run deep. That was my introduction to submarine warfare. It prompted me to read any first hand accounts or other books on the subject. I also built the obligatory scale model.....and seem to recall I copied the Wahoo. Great series.
My grandfather actually served on the Searaven but it wasn’t until later in the war. I believe he was on the Sargo (SS188) during the time frame of this video. Still great to see!
Had a brief but memorable conversation with a submariner on the North Slope of Alaska. He told me there were two types of watercraft: Subs and 'targets'.
Love this channel. Growing up in the sixes, the Movies made it look like ,there were no problems. Has a person who has worked on Machines all my life I knew better. Man has a way of fixing things that are not broke. Love the way you narrated this. I had some great laughs. Thank you !. Liked and shared. All my best.
As Drach said, the USS Silversides did indeed survive the war. She was then used as a training boat out of the Great Lakes Naval Station for years, until she was turned into a museum ship. She is moored in Muskegon, Michigan, and is open for tours. On a related note, the navy did a lot of training out of the Great Lakes Naval Station during the war, including navy pilots learning carrier landings and take offs on ships converted to carriers. One of the Wildcats that was lost during training has been recovered, and is in the process of being restored at the Airzoo in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Maybe Drach will cover this little known part of the US Navy's history in a future video.
"Air quotes" is what the last commenter called it. The perfect description of the oh so subtle inflection Drach gave to "improve" when He said it !:-) 🙏💜⚡️
@@stuartdollar9912 It has been speculated that the Japanese were ready to surrender in early 1945, due to the blockade. While it is true that the empire was in a hopeless situation, hopelessness was not enough to force the surrender. The Japanese surrendered when Hirohito saw the devastation ahead. The atomic bombs were used as soon as they became available and Hirohito surrendered after Nagasaki. Nothing that happened in the war had any influence on imperial resolve until the advent of the nuclear age. The submarine campaign was a contributor to victory but without Hiroshima and Nagasaki the Japanese would have fought on. In my mind the initiation of the drive across the central Pacific was the decisive action of World War II in the Pacific. Tarawa led to the Marshalls which led to the Marianas, and that led to Hiroshima and the end of the war. Everything else was in support.
@@brentvfreiberger It was actually their loss to the Soviet army that weighed heavily on the emperor's mind. The damage and consequences of the bombs weren't well-spread yet. Nukes tend to destroy roads and telegraph poles and such. Also, it didn't much matter whether a city was lost to one bomb or to fire bombing, and the latter didn't stop the regime from continuing the war either. Losing the neutral power that was hoped to be a mediator, and having the army being utterly destroyed by them, though... That was deeply unsettling.
In 1975 I flunked out of the only school I ever failed in my life. US Navy’s Nuclear Power School, a Lt Commander told me I would never serve in “his” sub service. In a rare case of thinking before speaking I didn’t tell him ‘thank you’. I was very happy to stick to being a tin can sailor. Watching this just indicates I was right. These guys were brave beyond understanding.
"which would technically have made him the first adept of the Mechanicus" I want you to know that I've never said what I'm about to say to any other TH-cam in over 7 years: you just earned a sub!
Just found this channel and subscribed. This is really great stuff. As a former submariner (LA class boats), I can't imagine what it must have been like to serve on these old fish boats. I had the opportunity to ride in a Korean diesel boat once, and "cramped" doesn't begin to describe it. And of course I've toured the Bowfin when I was stationed in Pearl...and again the idea of living on something like that is nuts. As bad as even modern subs are they might as well be the Ritz Carlton in comparison. These old submariners were truly made of tough fiber. I do find it funny how most people's concept of submarines in warfare is based almost completely on these WW2 boats and to a lesser extent the few Cold War based movies/books that don't really show the capabilities of modern submarines. Even when I read expert analysis on potential conflicts in the future, such as US vs China or the like, the modern submarine is either forgotten in the discussion, or is relegated to a role more in line with WW2 boats. The reality is that modern submarines, especially nuclear powered submarines, would render nearly all surface naval action obsolete, the same as what the carrier did to battleship fleets, as battleships and dreadnoughts did to Ironclads, and what Ironclads did to wooden Ships of the Line. For all of the problems with early US torpedoes, like the dreaded Mk14, the US made up for it since, with the Mk48 and the 48 ADCAP being nearly perfect weapons making no surface ship or even less capable submarine safe in the water. And the VLWT as a countermeasure weapon that can kill an incoming torpedo, along with the tremendous speed and depth LA, Seawolf, and Virginia boats can accomplish makes them nearly invulnerable. And then you have modern diesel boats with AIP backup that can really extend coastal defense and are quieter than anything in the water...nothing is safe from these. Yeah, the Germans never gave up on submarine engineering. If we ever see major naval warfare again, it will quickly be made clear to all that the Age of the Submarine has come. And it was these guys back in WWII that gave nations a glimpse of that possibility that spurred development to what it is now. As a kid in the Navy, I didn't understand at the time what kind of insane weapon I was serving on. But just thinking about what one little boat could do...well let's just hope we never see a big war again.
Quick question - if you are even permitted to answer. The vulnerability to MAD detectors. I realize the the ASW torpedo has to be able to detect, defeat all countermeasures, and then hit the submarine, but there doesn't seem to be much you can do to prevent an MAD detector from finding you in the first place.
@@shawncarroll5255 My limited understanding of MAD is that it is only mildly useful and sonar is still needed for acquiring a submarine. The ocean is full of "things" and magnetic detection has a hard time differentiating between them. It also has pretty narrow range the deeper something is. It's more like a complimentary detection system than a primary one. You still have to have a suspicion there's a submarine out there in the first place to be doing patterns over the water looking for hits. I think it will probably be a combination of satellites, advanced radar, and underwater drones that finally make it impossible to hide in the ocean, but my guess is the technology isn't there yet.
Cool. I was wondering when you were going to do a follow up to your one on the first part of the war. For all the lore surrounding the UBoats, the USN's submarine force had a demonstrable strategic effect on the war. The Carriers got the hype, but the subs ground the IJN and the Japanese Merchant Marine into dust.
If the Japs had the ship building capability of the US and Britain and had the ASW learning ability of those two countries, the US subs would've had a much smaller impact on the war too.
The very different outcomes in the Atlantic and Pacific in the year after June 43 (presumably to come up in the video to follow) are very much an electronic warfare story. Looking forward to your coverage.
The development of the hedgehog system by the British played a major role. Success rates went from 1 in 20 to 1 in 5. Took time before skippers learned the best way to use them
Love seeing content featuring the U.S submarine contribution in WWII. Submarines are often over looked in naval discussions and yet they were responsible for so much of the Japanese ships lost and thus the war effort in general despite their frugal numbers and unsung heroes.
You almost have to laugh at every story of failure and accidental success, because if you don't you'll just get depressed with just how fucked the situation was for the submariners. Great video as always.
One of those USS Wahoo sailors was Kindred Bernelle Johnson, from Roane County, Tennessee. There is a memorial marker for him in the Lawnville cemetery.
It gave Wahoo and Spearfish too many problems to be continually sane during its initial battlefield deployment on both of their patrols in September '43. In fact, I don't think the 18 stayed in service all that long, actually it stayed around for the war and then it WENT AWAY! Mk.17 was discontinued pretty much at the turn of the decade pretty right at the start of 1950. It was the same sort of red headed stepchild as the 18. As for the Mk.13 that got all those Torpedo Bomber squads killed at Midway. BuOrd and the aircraft manufacturers tried, they very well did their utter fucking damnedest to get it right. Finally, Grumman and BuOrd managed figure out how to actually fly a combat drop and the conditions and variables necessary to the thing to work and actually explode. BuOrd at least got their shit straightened up after sobering up and figuring out they got good airmen killed because of their shitty piece of ass. It became a somewhat decent weapon, and was allowed to remain in service longer than the 18 and 17. . . by 3 more years in '53. Now Mk.16, the American version of the beast that sank the Kursk by opsies, she got a full ride to retirement with honors in '75 when the first Mk.48's took over. Her problem just like the Soviet/Russian "Fat Girl" Type 76A was the HTP fuel that didn't like to play with anybody. Her last Modification was Mod 8, meaning that other than the ADCAP this is the most beloved U.S. Submarine torpedo of all time. Mk.19 through 22 never saw the light of day. Mk. 23 actually WORKED as intended from the get-go and was basically the same shell as the Mk.14. In fact the 23 stuck around until '46. After '46 all remaining 23's were turned into conversion to be 14 retrofits. Mk. 25 through 26 shared 19-22's fate. Mk.27 was submarine launched FIDO "mine". The Mod 4 variant stayed in service until 1960. So it was decent enough I guess. Mk.28 was similar to German acoustic homing torpedoes. Like 27 it stayed around until '60. Mk. 29 through 31 also shared 19-22's fate. Tl;Dr of this is: US WWII torpedo development was messy, chaotic, rife with conflict, and didn't have a lot of high-five gotcha moments that were born of successful genius.
22:37 that was Pan American World Airways Flight 1104 a Martin M-130 Flying boat the Philippine Clipper that crashed into the mountain side at 2500 feet The crash was blamed on Pilot Error by the Pan Am 1104's captain failing to determine where he was before he descended to very low altitude during very bad weather in the dark of night
I don't understand HOLLYWOOD. This poster has graciously shared enough stories to keep HOLLYWOOD or the BBC busy for years!!! Thank you. Drachinifel !!!🙏👌
Question is, why weren't all the problems with the Mk 14 detected before it was put in service??? One thing about the US and German submarine service that always amazes me is the difference in size between a US fleet boat and a VIIC. My father was 3rd watch officer on U-969, and gave me a guided tour of U-995 when we were in Germany. I later had a chance to visit USS Pampanito while in San Francisco. Pampanito was palatial compared to U-995.
Love these videos! The US submarine service often gets overlooked. The other submarine forces (aside from the Germans) are even more overlooked. Which is sad to me because submarines (especially US fleet boats) are my favorite types of ship
I really enjoyed this one. Submarine warfare isn't something I thought I had much interest in, but Drach sure put in some effort to make me think otherwise.
Pinned post for Q&A :)
Q: In your mind do you think the officers that prolonged the Mk14 debacle should have been punished? In my mind their malfeasance caused hundreds of American servicemen to lose their lives, life in prison would be my starting point.
How was the royal navy's transition from coal to oil? Did any major ship need a refit to switch from coal to oil?
Q. you are given the opportunity to save Warspite from the breakers, but only by keeping her in active service.
How would you go about Imperium Man'ing her into the modern age.
Did many of the submariners actually put the torpedos into contact fuse only? It seems they had the option fairly early on buy they chose to continue trying the magnetic fuse. And they did go to contact only how did they work?
How did the Italian navy perform ASW operations? Did they have a more effective ship or tactic one of the other WW2 powers didn't have? Or where they struggling just as much as Japan?
One of the funniest submarine stories I've heard was after the USS Tang got a new captain and started to prepare for a dive, and it was only once they were all inside and shut the hatch that they realized the captain was still up on the conning tower. They quickly retrieved him and he deadpanned "I'm getting the sense you boys don't like me."
Was that captain Dick O'Kane?
@@ronaldfinkelstein6335 pretty sure it was. Don't have the book in front of me at the moment.
@@bara922 in all probability you have it right. I just checked the Wikipedia entry for O'Kane, and it says he was a 'plank owner'(Navy slang for being in her commissioning crew). Quote:"He(O'Kane) placed her (Tang) in commission in October, 1943 and commanded her for her entire career"
@@ronaldfinkelstein6335 actually I looked at the book and I was mistaken. It was actually John Coye of the USS Silversides. My bad!
@@bara922 What book was it? I’ve been looking for some sub books to read.
When you dodge a torpedo because of engine failure: *_Task failed successfully_*
The engine understood the correct assignment.
In Modern War Luck boils down on things like this happening instead of superstition and mystical events
@@Voron_Aggrav Don't you _dare_ disrespect the machine spirit! The Emperor will not be pleased...
Act of applicable deity.
@@TheEDFLegacy no quite the opposite, it's the Fickle nature of the Machine Spirit that leads to the events of luck
"I'm pretty sure at this point Commanders thought loading themselves into the tubes and launching themselves at enemy ships would be more effective."
-Dr Alexander Clarke, the Battles of Narvik video
I would have suggested that you start with the top brass from the Bureau of Ordinance but I fear that they're also defective.
@@TheEngineer4077 Surely something that dense would serve as an excellent armor penetrator.
@@fguocokgyloeu4817 Not enough motivation to propel themselves to take advantage of that characteristic. Otherwise they would have motivated themselves to design a proper torpedo. Plus unreliable detonators and navigation means they either explode before they get to the target, ran aground or veer off in the wrong direction only to somehow hit the ship that deployed them... Because the sailors 'tampered' with the nav when they specifically said not to. That makes them angry.
Sir we've been hit by an officer! Then we'll return in kind! (grabbed most honourably by sailers) Not me, a torpedo!
@@hmsverdun Aaaah...the Simpsons...evergreen
"An explosive konichiwa" is the funniest sentence ive heard in a while.
I almost spit out my drink on that one
For those interested in the US Navy submarine campaign, Thunder Below by Admiral Eugene B. Fluckey is must read. He was the commander of the USS Barb, the only submarine to sink a train.
Okay you've sold me.
To be fair however, Thunder Below is NOT the story of the early hard trials of the submarine campaign but rather the wild and aggressive final stage. Where, you know, submarines are sinking trains and practicing ballistic missile attacks on the Japanese Islands.
@@Vehrec, true but Barb did have her fair share of dud torpedoes
Agreed wholeheartedly! I'm also a big fan of "Clear the Bridge!" by RAdm. Richard H. O'Kane. I'm struggling to finish "Sink 'Em All" by Adm. Charles Lockwood. It's filled with interesting logistical information, but Adm. Lockwood wasn't as lively as writer as either Fluckey or O'Kane ... at least in my opinion. For having such a fiery temper, I would have expected a more interesting read.
@@cuckoowasp2009 Lockwoods read more like a log than a book not bad though
As a Retired US Submariner, thank you for your excellent presentation 👍
The stories are great - and the delivery is exquisite.
Hats off to you. Had a high school friend who served on subs during the 1980s.
What is it like being on a submarine?
@@metaknight115 like living in a walk- in closet with your entire high school class
@@subvet694 Oh damn. Thank you for your service.
I can't imagine the fury of crews who risked their lives to fire malfunction torpedoes.
Nothing kills you faster than a development committee
Drach did other videos about this topic about 2.5 years ago and 9 months ago: _The Mark 14 Torpedo - Failure is Like Onions_ and _The USN Pacific Submarine Campaign - The Dark Year (Dec'41 - Dec'42)_ . The behaviour of Navy ordnance was abysmal.
Figuring out the problems with the Mark 14 torpedo was like a patient on the tv show House, symptoms on top of symptoms on top of symptoms.
imagine being a torpedo bomber pilot and having to fly low and level. you launch your torpedo after managing to not get shot out of the sky and the stupid thing doesn't even detonate.
@@Jacen436987 They used TBF's as glide bombers to attack shipping rather than their actual intended role in '43. Not surprised given the munitions they were dealing with.
One might call the USN submarine campaign during thus phase, sub-par.
Indeed. Especially when the Ordinance Department really torpedoed their chances at success.
@@TheEDFLegacy My esteem for the Bureau of Ordnance really took a dive due to this fiasco.
It really put morale on the bottom.
Damn you, that was a good one
@@patchouliknowledge4455 Rear Admiral Withers spent the early war conning the entire USN Submarine force.
In the 80s I was stationed on the namesake of USS Silversides SS-236, USS Silversides SSN-679. We had and used the diving alarm from the original Silversides.
I’ve visited the Silversides cool boat
Thats pretty neat. I hope they continue that tradition with other similarly named subs in the future
So we could have sunk 4 carriers in two days without risking any capital ships? Wow. I knew the Mark 14 had cost us a lot of merchant kills, but I didn't know it was this bad.
Worse than that, during the earlier months of the war various submarines had opportunities at multiple small Japanese task forces where the deficiencies of the Mk.14 prevented many kills. Especially tragic is the stories of the s-boats based in the Philippines when attacking Japanese forces during the Invasion, or those submarines near Wake Island, while the marines were holding out.
Mark 14 would go on to kill Tang, which was the sub that O'kane had command of after leaving Wahoo
@@beepthemeep12 *mark 18 electric torpedo.
@@kidpagronprimsank05 Ah
Usually it's hyperbole to claim that one weapon or another would have shortened/lengthened the war. The Mark 14 was so bad I'm not the least bit hesitant to say it lengthened the war in the Pacific.
Great video. My great-Uncle was one of those lost aboard the USS Grampus. He was only 18 years old and was on his first cruise. The Grampus has not been found and mystery surrounds her loss as the Japanese units thought responsible, were themselves sunk shortly thereafter.
Hi Drach, just FYI the video's description says "(Jan'42 - Jun'42)" rather than 1943.
As an aside, Wahoo herself ALSO experienced a torpedo stuck in one of her forward tubes (as a result of a test being run that O'Kane would have stopped had he known, but his original skipper had chosen a poor arrangement of watches etc, one that O'Kane wrote prevented acting as an effective Exec). There's a funny element to it, however.
She'd advised the relevant authorities in her message on reaching the 1,000 mile line from Pearl that she'd need a port mooring. On arrival, however, they found they'd been given a starboard one at Pier 1 with a bunch of dignitaries, well-wishes and a band present.
The following message was sent:
HAVE POSSIBLY ARMED TORPEDO PROTRUDING TO STARBOARD
STILL RECOMMEND PORT SIDE MOORING
Apparently that caused quite the exodus, LOL.
This was in mid-October '42. Taken from "Part Two FIRST PATROL In the Carolines" in O'Kane's book "Wahoo".
Cheers
...well that's one way of making an entrance.
“Is that a Mark 14 stuck in your torpedo tube or are you just happy to see me?”
Where did you get this info?
@@danielgregg2530 Not the OP but it looks like a paraphrase of O'Kanes book "Wahoo"
@@danielgregg2530 The source is mentioned at the end of my post.
I have a hard copy of each of O'Kane's books ("Wahoo" and "Clear the Bridge"; required reading for anyone interested in WW2 submarine warfare), plus both are on my kindle.
Cheers
"Which would technically make him the first Adept of the Mechanicus." Praise the Omnissiah! The humor throw in with the historical records is just top-tier!
This is excellent joke, but frankly, first Adept of the Mechanicus should forever be Magos Rejewski and Magos Turing, the great minds behind the Bombe against Enigma.
Glad the Silversides got a mention. Like many Cub Scouts in the early 90s, I got to spend a night on her and since my dad organized the trip they let him and I sleep in the captain's quarters!
And like Drach said she's still here in West Michigan, at Muskegon. If you're in the area it is well worth a visit to see this legendary war hero!
I went there with the Boy Scouts in 2004, joined the submarine force in '12, then went back to the Silversides after my first deployment in '16. The tour guide took my dad and I into the off limits areas, mainly the conning tower and the forward portion of the torpedo room.
The Silversides was known as an incredibly rowdy boat -- its wonderful that she survived and was preserved. The scrapping of the USS Barb was a tragedy -- that boat should absolutely have been preserved.
Also in the late 90s, I took a bunch of scouts for an overnight stay on the Silversides. There was a VCR in the galley to help pass the time, so I rented "Run Silent, Run Deep" at my local video store. The kids all complained - they wanted Star Wars or something more to their liking. That is until the movie began and the sub in the movie was the same as Silversides. Everything was the same. Totally cool.
Excellent video, Drach, thank you. Really loving this series. As an FYI, US subs had no doctors or surgeons on board at the time [ don't have any idea if they do today ]. The appendectomy performed on board Silversides was performed by a Pharmacist's Mate First Class named Thomas Moore, the senior medical 'officer' on board, who had zero surgical background or experience prior to the appendectomy. I remember reading about this many moons ago. According to Wikipedia, the operation was performed with improvised tools, but I can't confirm that.
U.S. submarines still don't have doctors on board. They have 1 "Doc" who is an independent duty corpsman (IDC) thats it. That being said... our doc took care of us better than any actual doctor I saw while I was in, up to and including some things that should probably have had guys lifeflighted off the boat.
@@CrzyRedneck Makes sense since it would take way too long for a Life Flight to get back to shore.
He did. The Silversides is in Michigan, and I went there for Boy Scouts. They have a book about her tours, and there's pictures of him using carpenter's tools to perform the surgery. His nurses were an electrician and an engine man.
According to the book "dive below" i believe it was done with whatever cutlery or sharpish utensils they had, however i may be wrong, i read the book a little while ago already..
@@yc0003 I want to go back and see the photos again and see what exactly he was using. I'm sure a chef's knife of some sort had to be used.
Rumor has it that MK 14 Torpedo is still travelling to this day.
The USS Flasher SSN613 still had mk14’s in 1976. Don’t know when the 14’s were permanently retired from the fleet
@@Idahoguy10157 he means that there is literally a mk.14 fired during WWII still zipping through the ocean today 😂
@@nova2293 …. I know. I was commenting how long mk14’s were in the fleet
@@nova2293 If it is still out there it should be easy to avoid being as it will be running in a tight circle to the left.
@@johnpublic6582 😂
Just when I think the extent of my anger and disdain for BuOrd has been reached, Drach makes another US Pacific Submarine video.
Well, they made a really great set of guns... (and at least swallowed their "pride" about the 1" and bought the foreign-designed 40mm and 20mm).
8:53 The sporadic 40k references that get slipped into these videos never cease to make me chuckle.
Agree wholeheartedly!
Should we start referring to Roosevelt’s wheelchair as the Golden Throne?
@@kingleech16 Trump has had a gold toilet for years.
@@davesomeone4059 Wait, what?
References that drove me to watching hundreds of hours of Luetin’s 40K lore videos. What a horrible universe full of horrible beings.
As the son of an ex-sub officer I want to thank you for this series, Drach. All of that archival footage you found is great. I could also detect when you were referencing Clay Blair's excellent "Silent Victory" 2-volume set. I highly recommend it to anyone wanting a deep dive (pardon the pun) into the subject.
As far as I know, _Silent Victory_ has always been a single volume. His corresponding book on U-boats was two volumes, though.
@@michaelsommers2356 My set is definitely 2-volume, although I think it dates back to the 1970s.
@@paulhightower9086 I sit corrected, then. It is definitely big enough for two volumes; my paperback is 1071 pages.
As a bubblehead myself, I love these videos. These men are legends in our community to this day. We pick and read a passage from 'Thunder Below' when we qualify submarines.
You'd could almost believe that MK 14 torpedo was designed by someone from the Kamchatka.
Obsoletely not. That is ridiculous. Kamchatka would go out of it's way to design the best weapon for dealing with Japanese torpedoes boats, and would never touch that flaming hot dumpster fire.
@@metaknight115 I don't know; these are Japanese ships we're dealing with here. Lol
The design was as good as someone explicitly barred from doing tests by congress could manage, to be fair: the low budget meant the torpedoes were designed for small scale, limited production runs, meaning fixing and producing them was a pain in the ass, and what testing was done by Newport was worthless at best due to misused testing equipment.
By contrast, the Mark 15 type torpedo got most of the pre-war effort into fixing it, and it seems to have done okay; at least until the plant meant to make up production shortfalls in the summer of 1943 caused it's own multitude of problems...
@@bubbasbigblast8563 all kidding aside I knew that there was problems with the navy's torpedoes but I didn't realize that it was that bad.
@@mwhyte1979 There's a video on this channel about the Mk 14 that goes over the litany of problems
Anyone not aware of it should search for the series Silent Service. Several of the stories mentioned here are enacted in the various episodes. This was great coverage of that time frame and brings together a lot of data rather than just the individual stories so you can have a much better understanding of the situation with the submarine service.
----- I think I will watch this about 5 more times and I will learn something new each time. This is just FREAKING BRILLIANT !!! If there were an Oscar for online content (and there should be) this series would easily win.
See Greg’s Airplanes and Automobiles for stellar work in his two categories.
It is said that every time a submarine begins its _Eternal patrol_ with all hands aboard a single tear rolls down the cheek of the Omnisiah.😢
ALL PRAISE THE OMNISIAH
“That’s a grudging”
~Squat from the Leagues of Votann
Drac, fast attack Pacific sub vet here. You do excellent work and I thank you! (USS Tunny 682 and USS Helena 725.)
Thanks for mentioning the Silversides is a museum ship. My dad served on her for her last 3 patrols. He lived that time in the navy, the start of a 22 year career. When he passed, I was fortunate to be able to have his ashes scattered at see from the nuclear powered attack boat Silversides.
Silversides is well worth the visit if you ever happen to be close, as well as LST 393 just up the lake. SS Badger is a short drive up the coast, a former rail ferry now converted to automobile duty and still running triple expansion steam engines, at least for now.
Have seen Silversides and rode the Badger. IIRC Badger is the last commercial coal ship in operation.
I've been on the SS Badger several times. I love that ferry! It's a convenient way of avoiding Chicago when you just want to get from Michigan to Wisconsin and vice versa.
My Great Grandfather Edgar Arthur LaCombe III was a machinist mate aboard the Sargo Class Submarine USS SAURY SS-189 During WWII ('41-'44). He was supposed to be stationed on the WAHOO and he knew every man that was on her from sub school, but he was so adamant about getting on a sub that when the chance to get on an older sub (SAURY) he took it. When he learned that WAHOO was lost on patrol he never forgave himself for all of his brothers that died, he never talked about it much.
A line from Peter Hart's "Gallipoli" seems appropriate when discussing the MK14 torpedo debacle. ". . . if they typified any . . . trait, it was a lunatic persistence in the face of the obvious."
Accurate.
I believe that's the Bureau of Ordnance motto...
Drach's robot voice goes: "that's it for this video" , i goes " oh, noooo!". Sterling work and another charming, exceedingly interesting video...very well narrated! Thank you! Can't wait for the next episode....if i weren't already a naval war buff these videos would turn me into a new one!
Your intuitive and sometimes humorous details of the narrative coupled with strict attention to detail have me looking forward to your next addition. My dad was a Sonar man First Class in the Pacific aboard a escort destroyer so I’m particularly interested in this portion of the war. Thank you.
The aforementioned USS Argonaut was the WWI era also known as the USS Argonaut (i).
My father served on the USS Argonaut (ii), ss-475, Tench Class, cousin to the Balao and Gato Classes.
My father's 1st ship was the USS Kittywake Submarine Rescue Vessel.
His 2nd boat was the USS Flying Fish, ss-229, Gato Class.
Wow. My dad also served on the Argonaut (circa 1953-4) after serving on destroyers in Korea. He was the engineering officer, and I think his next sub was the Tench herself.
@@yes_head very cool.
Argonaut - variously known as V-4/SF-7/SM-1/A-1/APS-1/SS-166
My grandfather served on USS argonaut after it was sold to Canada and renamed HMCS Rainbow 75 (trout fish not rain phenomenon) he was part of the commissioning crew in 1968.
@@yes_head l
I appreciate you only covering 6 months of this campaign here. thanks for the good work. I've read dozens of books on the subject but, can never seem to get enough
I read the book "Silversides" and I heartily recommend it! The captain and crew felt awful every time they missed or a torpedo failed to explode, they were risking their lives every time they dived and combat made it even worse, but to have your weapon fail was downright frustrating. The crew knew who to blame and the captain made the point very clear every time they returned to Pearl Harbor. But again and again he and the other captains were told they were wrong and it was probably their fault. The first two years of WW2 in the Pacific, was basically wasted and the loss of subs and their crews was criminal. Add to this waste the potential damage to the Japanese navy, plus it gave the Japanese time to improve their defenses.
My dad took me to tour the Silversides when she was docked at Navy Pier in Chicago. She was still in service and looking through her scopes was definitely the highlight for a kid. Great video Drach.
After some experimentation, in the early-mid 30s the USN settled on a multi-step evolutionary path starting with the Porpoise class that led to WW2's work-horse Gato and Balao class boats. Boats of classes later in the evolutionary path would be similar in appearance to Gatos. The 3"/50 was selected, at least partially, to discourage engaging escorts. As these proved inadequate, they were variously replaced with 4"/50s from retired S-boats or 4-pipers or 5"/25s from surface ships as those were replaced with the famous 5"/38s. The Mark XIV only had 3 major flaws: running too deep; a magnetic exploder that seldom worked; a contact exploder that didn't work reliably. Those defects aside, it was a marvel.
Even with the paltry budget they had in the '30s, they could have non-destructively tested the depth controller and had that fixed. Same for the magnetic exploder, the testing would have had to be a bit more expensive in recording gadgetry, but it could have been done. Nothing would have answered the contact exploder testing besides actual impacts, so we can understand (but not forgive) their hesitance. But two (not one) categories of warships relied on these as their big punch: subs and destroyers. Not testing their operation and lethality should have been a dereliction-of-duty offense. But then, we gave MacArthur the Medal of Honor in 1942.
@@gregorywright4918 There you go Dugout Doug gets a MOH. 👎
Each torpedo was hand made and cost $10,000. That's about a million today.
BuOrd was extremely hidebound and resistant to change or criticism
The 5-inch Mark 40 wet moubt gun on subs was not the 5-25 antiaircraft gun removed from surface ships. It was an entirely bespoke gun.
A 40K reference?!? Oh my nerdy heart.
indeed. blessed be the omnissiah
He's been throwing a lot of Sci-Fi references into his videos,
It appears you consulted George Girder's wonderfully entertaining and well-written book, "War Fish," the first book I ever read on submarine warfare and still a treasured part of my military history collection. The best German companion work is Herbert Werner's "Iron Coffins," also a first-hand story about the rise and fall of the U-Boats.
Iron Coffins was the first book I read on submarine warfare, in my high school library. I agree, it is an excellent book on the subject.
Ned Beach Jr's "Submarine!" is a classic
Awesome you focused on Silverside's 4th Patrol. I gave tours on the old girl in 2014-2017. She is still there in Muskegon, MI!
As a side note the Shark I was lost in February 1942, not 43. In any case, thank you for focusing on a critical period of the US Submarine Force in ww2
Apologies, I thought it looked familiar, pretty sure I mentioned Sharks loss in the previous episode as well! 😀
@@Drachinifel No worries. You knocked Silversides 4th Patrol out of the park 100% as well as Mush Morton's character on.
Cheers
@@Drachinifel You would also be surprised how many Navy history buffs Ive met who get the Wartime losses of both Shark I (Porpoise-Class) and Shark II (Balao-Class) mixed up.
One in February 1942, and two in November 1944.
Their namesake is what mixes them up.
The first Adept of the Mechanicus some 20,000 odd years early! Great video as usual Drach, thank you.
In the 1950's on US television there was a series called The Silent Service. It told the story of US submarines in WW2.
Been waiting MONTHS for the second episode of this mini series - thanks Drach for the midweek boost!
Loving this series especially. The sub war on Japan is my absolute favourite WW2 naval topic! Thanks Drach👍😀
Same!
Same here! So happy to see this installment come up. Cannot wait for next, and will rewatch the first two over and over.
I've always found it ironic my second ship DDG-77 USS O'Kane was named after a very famous sub skipper. Half our mission is hunting and killing subs while on a ship named after someone who was really good at turning surface ships into submarines...
One thing I learned early on as an engineer well 2 things but they are pretty related. 1 EVERY ship can be a submarine..once...
2. You're never "mostly" more than a mile from land...
If you are confused as to how those 2 can be related then Naval matters aren't going to be your thing.
Depends on your definition of "land"...
The first Destroyer Escort after WW2 was the USS Dealey. In something of bad memory, President Kennedy was shot in Dealey Plaza
I’m so glad you did the story about USS Silversides, I slept overnight on that sub with my dad when I was in boyscouts as a kid.
Hope your feeling better Drach! Thanks for the video!
I am a Michigan citizen and have been to the Silversides museum multiple times, it’s an incredible experience and a sticker follows me every day to work on my clipboard
My respect, and sympathy, for Submariners from all sides in WW2 has no bounds, I cant imagine the horror of being confined in a small, claustrophobic and smelly space like a submerged sub while people on the surface drop high explosives on you. Even worse the slow descent to the depths after being attacked and damaged knowing that crush depth approaches and there's nothing you can do. Brave doesn't begin to describe them.
I agree, but I would much rather be in a submarine than a battleship or even a destroyer. they are smaller targets, and I prefer a stealthy hit and run approach.
@@coyehayes793 With all the mortality rates, that sounds like betting against the odds to me.
@@bradenhagen7977 I don't think being on a warship in general gave high odds of survival in that era. The best off were the carrier crews, but the rest...
My father, Jennings B. Rogerson, served aboard the USS Gato SS-212. He told me and my brother about all the trouble the sub force was having and how it caused several narrow escapes. To this day I can't understand how my dad wasn't more disturbed by his silent service. He was always calm and collected, a man at peace with himself.
MK14 finally get fixed
USN Submarines: This is we’re the fun begins
I'd read about the ineptitude of the Bureau of Ordinance, but this video showed the disaster that can result from egos that can't admit that they're wrong. Nice video, as usual.
Just as I was thinking of this series drach comes back to it, nice
Nicely done sir. I am anxiously hoping that you do an episode centered on Richard O'Kane and the USS Tang. I have read both his books - Wahoo and Clear The Bridge - and recently visited him @ Arlington this summer. His war patrols truly deserve to be shared.
Wonderful video as always Drach! As a former US Navy submariner myself, the Pacific submarine campaign in WWII is a topic that is very dear to me.
Saw the Silversides last Christmas with my 4 and 8 year old nephews. It's a great museum ship, probably the best museum ship normalized for distance from the sea. Thousand miles away from salt water!
I can relate to their frustrations... Been playing a lot of War on the Sea as the US and Im playing with duds on.
I had a perfect shot at a Nagato class BB. Launched 10 torpedoes with just about perfect spread...
9 duds. 1 missed and hit the ship behind it. It was the only one to detonate but barely even scratched it because it was a Kongo class BB and it hit right on the torpedo defenses. She didnt even slow down.
I was _furious._
I actually did my Master’s Thesis on the destruction of the Japanese Merchant fleet, so it was great to hear you giving the silent service some love
Roger Payne being first adept of the mechanicus that's hilarious you sir get a like for that
Terrific video. It was reading my dad's copy of "Clear the Bridge!" that sent me down a lifelong interest in not just WW2 naval history but the history of warfare in general.
Using a generator to power the electronics on the Mark 14 utterly boggles the mind. A generator uses rotating magnetic fields to produce electricity, and you are doing this right next to a mechanism that explodes the torpedo when the magnetic fields it detects fluctuate enough...
I've read both of O'kane's books, and can't recommend them enough. His accounts of Wahoo and Tang are both fascinating. Hard to believe what those guys accomplished in those fleet boats. You have to wonder how much shorter the war would have been if the mk14 actually worked. I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to stalk a target for days avoiding detection, finally get the perfect angle of attack, and just hear your torpedo thud against the enemy hull.
Great video Drach, looking forward to the rest of the series.
Really, really enjoyed this one - well, bit hair raising at times! - but one of my favourites so far. Great Drachisms, especially. Thank you, and looking forward to more. :)
Run silent, run deep. That was my introduction to submarine warfare. It prompted me to read any first hand accounts or other books on the subject. I also built the obligatory scale model.....and seem to recall I copied the Wahoo. Great series.
I love that book.
Any submarine video is an instant watch for me! Thanks for the great video Drach!
My grandfather actually served on the Searaven but it wasn’t until later in the war. I believe he was on the Sargo (SS188) during the time frame of this video. Still great to see!
As a native to Manitowoc, Wisconsin and it's part in the WWII sub fleet, I love these stories.
The 10 torpedoes failing to damage those three carriers. I felt his pain
Would make you nuke the Bureau of Ordnance. Or at least, torpedo it....
D'oh x 10. 👐
@@ibubezi7685 The problem is if you torpedo'd the BuOrd it wouldn't work
Had a brief but memorable conversation with a submariner on the North Slope of Alaska. He told me there were two types of watercraft: Subs and 'targets'.
I know fighter pilots will occasionally recite a similar half-serious mantra, that there are two kinds of aircraft: fighters and targets.
@@ChrisSmith-mi2zo - there are more planes in the ocean than submarines in the sky.
Fabulous, never heard a better presentation. Many of these sins came into Phila after the war and the stories were incredible.
Love this channel. Growing up in the sixes, the Movies made it look like ,there were no problems. Has a person who has worked on Machines all my life I knew better. Man has a way of fixing things that are not broke. Love the way you narrated this. I had some great laughs. Thank you !. Liked and shared. All my best.
As Drach said, the USS Silversides did indeed survive the war. She was then used as a training boat out of the Great Lakes Naval Station for years, until she was turned into a museum ship. She is moored in Muskegon, Michigan, and is open for tours.
On a related note, the navy did a lot of training out of the Great Lakes Naval Station during the war, including navy pilots learning carrier landings and take offs on ships converted to carriers. One of the Wildcats that was lost during training has been recovered, and is in the process of being restored at the Airzoo in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Maybe Drach will cover this little known part of the US Navy's history in a future video.
As a former submariner thx for giving us bubbleheads some love ❤️
awesome, love the view of Argonaut submerging off San Diego at 39.20
"Air quotes" is what the last commenter called it. The perfect description of the oh so subtle inflection Drach gave to "improve" when He said it !:-)
🙏💜⚡️
I love these videos. Going over some of the US subs history is very interesting and informative. Love the format!
Literally whooped with excitement when I saw this one pop up on my homepage. Been waiting!
You can only imagine how the war would end if the Mark 14 torpedo Worked as intended
It would have ended a year earlier in my estimation. Once the subs got more aggressive captains, the torpedo held them back for over a year.
We would still have "adult" men with anime girl profile pics on youtube, sadly.
@@datadavis I'd rather be speaking German lol
@@stuartdollar9912 It has been speculated that the Japanese were ready to surrender in early 1945, due to the blockade. While it is true that the empire was in a hopeless situation, hopelessness was not enough to force the surrender. The Japanese surrendered when Hirohito saw the devastation ahead. The atomic bombs were used as soon as they became available and Hirohito surrendered after Nagasaki. Nothing that happened in the war had any influence on imperial resolve until the advent of the nuclear age.
The submarine campaign was a contributor to victory but without Hiroshima and Nagasaki the Japanese would have fought on. In my mind the initiation of the drive across the central Pacific was the decisive action of World War II in the Pacific. Tarawa led to the Marshalls which led to the Marianas, and that led to Hiroshima and the end of the war. Everything else was in support.
@@brentvfreiberger
It was actually their loss to the Soviet army that weighed heavily on the emperor's mind.
The damage and consequences of the bombs weren't well-spread yet. Nukes tend to destroy roads and telegraph poles and such.
Also, it didn't much matter whether a city was lost to one bomb or to fire bombing, and the latter didn't stop the regime from continuing the war either.
Losing the neutral power that was hoped to be a mediator, and having the army being utterly destroyed by them, though...
That was deeply unsettling.
In 1975 I flunked out of the only school I ever failed in my life. US Navy’s Nuclear Power School, a Lt Commander told me I would never serve in “his” sub service. In a rare case of thinking before speaking I didn’t tell him ‘thank you’. I was very happy to stick to being a tin can sailor.
Watching this just indicates I was right.
These guys were brave beyond understanding.
To be fair--uttering prayers to the Machine God is probably the best one could do with the Mk.XIV
"which would technically have made him the first adept of the Mechanicus"
I want you to know that I've never said what I'm about to say to any other TH-cam in over 7 years: you just earned a sub!
Just found this channel and subscribed. This is really great stuff. As a former submariner (LA class boats), I can't imagine what it must have been like to serve on these old fish boats. I had the opportunity to ride in a Korean diesel boat once, and "cramped" doesn't begin to describe it. And of course I've toured the Bowfin when I was stationed in Pearl...and again the idea of living on something like that is nuts. As bad as even modern subs are they might as well be the Ritz Carlton in comparison. These old submariners were truly made of tough fiber.
I do find it funny how most people's concept of submarines in warfare is based almost completely on these WW2 boats and to a lesser extent the few Cold War based movies/books that don't really show the capabilities of modern submarines. Even when I read expert analysis on potential conflicts in the future, such as US vs China or the like, the modern submarine is either forgotten in the discussion, or is relegated to a role more in line with WW2 boats.
The reality is that modern submarines, especially nuclear powered submarines, would render nearly all surface naval action obsolete, the same as what the carrier did to battleship fleets, as battleships and dreadnoughts did to Ironclads, and what Ironclads did to wooden Ships of the Line. For all of the problems with early US torpedoes, like the dreaded Mk14, the US made up for it since, with the Mk48 and the 48 ADCAP being nearly perfect weapons making no surface ship or even less capable submarine safe in the water. And the VLWT as a countermeasure weapon that can kill an incoming torpedo, along with the tremendous speed and depth LA, Seawolf, and Virginia boats can accomplish makes them nearly invulnerable.
And then you have modern diesel boats with AIP backup that can really extend coastal defense and are quieter than anything in the water...nothing is safe from these. Yeah, the Germans never gave up on submarine engineering.
If we ever see major naval warfare again, it will quickly be made clear to all that the Age of the Submarine has come. And it was these guys back in WWII that gave nations a glimpse of that possibility that spurred development to what it is now. As a kid in the Navy, I didn't understand at the time what kind of insane weapon I was serving on. But just thinking about what one little boat could do...well let's just hope we never see a big war again.
Quick question - if you are even permitted to answer. The vulnerability to MAD detectors. I realize the the ASW torpedo has to be able to detect, defeat all countermeasures, and then hit the submarine, but there doesn't seem to be much you can do to prevent an MAD detector from finding you in the first place.
@@shawncarroll5255 My limited understanding of MAD is that it is only mildly useful and sonar is still needed for acquiring a submarine. The ocean is full of "things" and magnetic detection has a hard time differentiating between them. It also has pretty narrow range the deeper something is. It's more like a complimentary detection system than a primary one. You still have to have a suspicion there's a submarine out there in the first place to be doing patterns over the water looking for hits.
I think it will probably be a combination of satellites, advanced radar, and underwater drones that finally make it impossible to hide in the ocean, but my guess is the technology isn't there yet.
Hooyah Submarines!
This is really enlightnening. Served aboard USS Helena SSN725, and we named our watch sections Barb, Tang and Wahoo!
Cool. I was wondering when you were going to do a follow up to your one on the first part of the war. For all the lore surrounding the UBoats, the USN's submarine force had a demonstrable strategic effect on the war. The Carriers got the hype, but the subs ground the IJN and the Japanese Merchant Marine into dust.
If the Japs had the ship building capability of the US and Britain and had the ASW learning ability of those two countries, the US subs would've had a much smaller impact on the war too.
Nicely done, and very well researched and composed for the TH-cam screen. Thank you!
The very different outcomes in the Atlantic and Pacific in the year after June 43 (presumably to come up in the video to follow) are very much an electronic warfare story. Looking forward to your coverage.
The development of the hedgehog system by the British played a major role.
Success rates went from 1 in 20 to 1 in 5. Took time before skippers learned the best way to use them
Love seeing content featuring the U.S submarine contribution in WWII. Submarines are often over looked in naval discussions and yet they were responsible for so much of the Japanese ships lost and thus the war effort in general despite their frugal numbers and unsung heroes.
You almost have to laugh at every story of failure and accidental success, because if you don't you'll just get depressed with just how fucked the situation was for the submariners.
Great video as always.
The yeoman was a lonely man. Lol love your humor, Drach. Great work and very enlightening.
“Occasionally working mk14 torpedo” is a good description
I worry that the Sub Force must rely on the Mark 48 which is good at sinking moored surface targets.
One of those USS Wahoo sailors was Kindred Bernelle Johnson, from Roane County, Tennessee. There is a memorial marker for him in the Lawnville cemetery.
Considering what was said at the end about the Mark 18 it only leaves one thing to say....."Don't worry, we going to fix it until it is broken".
It gave Wahoo and Spearfish too many problems to be continually sane during its initial battlefield deployment on both of their patrols in September '43. In fact, I don't think the 18 stayed in service all that long, actually it stayed around for the war and then it WENT AWAY!
Mk.17 was discontinued pretty much at the turn of the decade pretty right at the start of 1950. It was the same sort of red headed stepchild as the 18.
As for the Mk.13 that got all those Torpedo Bomber squads killed at Midway. BuOrd and the aircraft manufacturers tried, they very well did their utter fucking damnedest to get it right. Finally, Grumman and BuOrd managed figure out how to actually fly a combat drop and the conditions and variables necessary to the thing to work and actually explode. BuOrd at least got their shit straightened up after sobering up and figuring out they got good airmen killed because of their shitty piece of ass. It became a somewhat decent weapon, and was allowed to remain in service longer than the 18 and 17. . . by 3 more years in '53.
Now Mk.16, the American version of the beast that sank the Kursk by opsies, she got a full ride to retirement with honors in '75 when the first Mk.48's took over. Her problem just like the Soviet/Russian "Fat Girl" Type 76A was the HTP fuel that didn't like to play with anybody. Her last Modification was Mod 8, meaning that other than the ADCAP this is the most beloved U.S. Submarine torpedo of all time.
Mk.19 through 22 never saw the light of day.
Mk. 23 actually WORKED as intended from the get-go and was basically the same shell as the Mk.14. In fact the 23 stuck around until '46. After '46 all remaining 23's were turned into conversion to be 14 retrofits.
Mk. 25 through 26 shared 19-22's fate.
Mk.27 was submarine launched FIDO "mine". The Mod 4 variant stayed in service until 1960. So it was decent enough I guess.
Mk.28 was similar to German acoustic homing torpedoes. Like 27 it stayed around until '60.
Mk. 29 through 31 also shared 19-22's fate.
Tl;Dr of this is: US WWII torpedo development was messy, chaotic, rife with conflict, and didn't have a lot of high-five gotcha moments that were born of successful genius.
22:37 that was Pan American World Airways Flight 1104 a Martin M-130 Flying boat the Philippine Clipper that crashed into the mountain side at 2500 feet
The crash was blamed on Pilot Error by the Pan Am 1104's captain failing to determine where he was before he descended to very low altitude during very bad weather in the dark of night
Anyone who ever went to sea in a sub is my hero. I can't even imagine doing it. And I'm a Navy veteran.
I don't understand HOLLYWOOD. This poster has graciously shared enough stories to keep HOLLYWOOD or the BBC busy for years!!! Thank you. Drachinifel !!!🙏👌
Question is, why weren't all the problems with the Mk 14 detected before it was put in service??? One thing about the US and German submarine service that always amazes me is the difference in size between a US fleet boat and a VIIC. My father was 3rd watch officer on U-969, and gave me a guided tour of U-995 when we were in Germany. I later had a chance to visit USS Pampanito while in San Francisco. Pampanito was palatial compared to U-995.
Love these videos! The US submarine service often gets overlooked. The other submarine forces (aside from the Germans) are even more overlooked. Which is sad to me because submarines (especially US fleet boats) are my favorite types of ship
I really enjoyed this one. Submarine warfare isn't something I thought I had much interest in, but Drach sure put in some effort to make me think otherwise.
8:50 "...adept of the mechanicus..." Thank you Drach, thank you. 😄
Been waiting so long for this next part! You're amazing, D! Love all your content!