Leather Armor in history and D&D
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ส.ค. 2022
- Let's look at the question of leather armor around the world! Dive into the various places in the world where leather armor was used, and the history behind it.
NOTE!!
Edit: Ok, so I have become aware that on a separate channel from the main, that one of the creators in my thumbnail made some statements regarding the LBGTQ+ community that I am very much opposed to. I have eliminated my prior statements in the description regarding that creator and am noting it here.
Also, I cannot list of every source. I have reviewed information, text, videos, scholarly work, etc, that contributed to this video. For instance, I've read a lot of history on the Mongol Empire that is not listed here because, in some instances, I can't remember what information came from what book, or even what the title of the book is. There is so much out there to review, and history, as much as most folks don't like to think of it this way, is interpretive. That's why historians can disagree on these things.
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Sources:
Grindley, Carl James. “Arms and the Man: The Curious Inaccuracy of Medieval Arms and Armor in Contemporary Film.” Film & History: An Interdisciplinary Journal of Film and Television Studies 36.1 (2006): 14-19. Web.
Hwang, J. (2018). Main Features of Leather Armor from the Joseon Dynasty in the National Museum of Korea. Conservation Science in Museum, 20, 61-76. doi.org/10.22790/CONSERVATION...
Dean, Bashford. Catalogue of the Loan Collection of Japanese Armor. Vol. 14. Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1903.
Smith Jr, John Masson. "The Nomads' Armament: Номе-Made Weaponry." (2000).
Smith, J. M., Jr. (1997). "9 Mongol Society and Military in the Middle East: Antecedents and Adaptations". In War and Society in the Eastern Mediterranean, 7th-15th Centuries. Leiden, The Netherlands: Brill. doi: doi.org/10.1163/9789004474475...
Adams, Dan. ARMS AND ARMOR OF EAST AND SOUTHEAST ASIA. Diss. WORCESTER POLYTECHNIC INSTITUTE, 2003.
Encyclopaedia of the History of Science, Technology, and Medicine in Non-Western Cultures, p. 1-16., 2015Gina Barnes Joseph Ryan
Warfare in China to 1600, p. 84., 2005 Peter Lorge bronze age. 1600-100 bce.
Jones, David E. Native North American Armor, Shields, and Fortifications. University of Texas Press, 2004. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/10.7560/7.... Accessed 27 Jul. 2022. - เกม
I learned multiple things today! Thank you for your diligent research and translations. Hope this video takes off! 🚀
Ayyyy it's BWB! Learned a lot from your content too.
please let this be the sign of a future cross over event
Hi Bob!
However, both Shad, Skallagrim and Raphael has said that leather armor were used, as in boiled/hardened leather, for instance leather lamelar, but not as the biker leather used in shows like Vikings. They have also pointed out that the D&D studded leather should be changed into a Brigandine or coat of plates. They have said that there are findings of it, specially in Asia, but because of the fact that leather rot away, it is hard ti find anything in Europe, and specially in Scandinavia where the warriors would be buried in it as well.
As a Viking age reenactor from and in Norway, I can attest to the positive sudes if the use of fur in the winter as well.
Yes, the claim was never that leather armour didn't exist, they were criticising how it was shown in media
Leather armor historically wouldn't actually be leather (fully tanned hide) but would be rather rawhide or partially/superficially tanned rawhide. The Cheshire's tests ("Non-metallic armour prior to the First World War") showed that rawhide and partially tanned rawhide are both significantly stronger than leather and is cheaper too since it doesn't require the long tanning process.
In The AD&D 1st edition DMG there is this, written by Gygax:
"Note: If you are unfamiliar with medieval armor types, you might find Charles ffoulkes' ARMOUR AND WEAPONS (Oxford 1909) a short and useful text. The armor types I have selected are fitted into a game system. Here is what they subsume: LEATHER ARMOR is cuir bouli, consisting of coat, leggings, boots, and gauntlets. STUDDED LEATHER adds protective plates set in the leather and an extra layer of protection at shoulder area. [...]"
Sounds familiar. 8:15
Only later did people read the words "studded leather" and assume that that meant biker/fetish style cowhide with metal studs.
(To be fair, later historians drew different conclusions from Charles ffoulkes.)
(And kudos to LegalKimchee for providing us with so many more examples of the same thing EGG found in ffoulkes.)
So studed leather was some proto brigandine? Can you explain futher what Studed Leather was and compare it to other armour types? Knowing this Studed Leather became intriguin
@@theprinceofawesomeness Brigandine is metal plates affixed to the inside of cuir bouli, giving an external appearance of leather with metal studs. Gygax named that "studded leather".
Others then saw that nomenclature and incorrectly interpreted it to mean tanned leather with metal studs. Following that, "studded leather" was depicted in popular media, further cementing the misunderstanding. "Studded leather", as such, was never a historical practice.
EGG's mistake wasn't inventing "studded leather" (i.e. tanned leather with studs), but with a poor choice of naming for brigandine armour.
@@EricScheid odd since coat of plates or brig, was attached to soft leather (the flexibility was important to actually be able to don it) or cloth, not a boiled/hardened leather. Also that it would be less protective than Mail, when in relaity it was/is considerably more so. Though armor/accuracy in that regard still seems a failing of D&D thru any edition. A shield providing a whopping +1 to AC? OK then.
It's not Gygax's fault that people took his description of leather with metal bits and started drawing armors that looked like they came from Gene Simmons' closet. It wasn't the first time artists took what Gary Gygax wrote and ran with it like crazy. For example described a bugbear as being large and hairy and having a head with pumpkin-like dimensions (wider than it is tall). The artist drew a Sasquatch with Jack-O-lantern for a head! 🤣
Nitpick with your video; when talking about the medieval period people usually talk about Europe because it's a term denoting a period of time in Europe. When people are talking about history from other parts of the world they refer to the historical period by the appropriate regional terms; such as the Ming Dynasty.
Loved this! I was one of those kids who was always checking THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF WEAPONS-type books from the library, so I've always loved seeing different styles and approaches to arms and armor (and I know that many of those books conveniently forgot to include whole swaths of humanity for some reason...)
I found this channel because of a recommendation you made on your channel. I’ve watched like 4 videos in a row. Thanks for the rec!
I agree, more gambeson in Fantasy! In all seriousness though, I appreciate the discussion of where the idea of studded leather came from, and what armor that looked like that actually was. I love seeing more into how people came up with things that aren't necessarily accurate, but that have a big impact on how we think about certain timeframes or genres (or in this case, both) after the fact. This feels a bit like discussions on how fossils may have inspired some of the myths and legends we have today - long before we had the knowledge to understand what fossils are and what they are evidence of (and not evidence of).
Gambesons are great, and offer much more color variety than leather tends to, anyway.
Interestingly, if you look back at Gygax's writing pre-D&D, the common narrative about studded leather and brigandine might not actually be correct. In a 1971 article in Panzerfaust #43, Gygax describes "splinted armor (brigandine)" as follows: "A piece of heavy material would be used to act as backing for strips of metal which overlapped upwards. The rivet heads would show on the outer side so the material used there was usually velvet or silk, the rivets silvered or gilded, and a lovely pourpointerie coat thus obtained!" That seems like a reasonably accurate description to me. The same year, in his wargame Chainmail, he classified "studded" and the above "splint"/brigandine as rough equivalents on the armor table. He never really gave a good, clear explanation, but looking at what mentions of the two I can find, it seems like he was fully aware that "studded leather" was essentially synonymous with brigandine.
If I were to guess, where this misconception probably originates is not with someone looking at brigandine and misinterpreting what it was, nor with any D&D *writer*, but with D&D *players* misinterpreting Gygax's writing. He rarely elaborated on terms like this, so in the AD&D 1e core books (probably his most influential mention of "studded leather"), the term was presented without explanation (nor illustration), and readers were left to figure it out on their own. Naturally one might assume that the words "studded leather" simply refer to leather with studs.
The more you read of Gygax the more you notice things like this (see also the idea of one-handed "long swords"). He was notoriously verbose and had a tendency to assume that readers were operating with the same knowledge as him, which led to a lot of people's first introduction to medieval history being both opaque and incomplete, and led to a lot of these sorts of misconceptions.
@@earlylevelfountainquaffer Oooh, I love all of this, thank you!
@@earlylevelfountainquaffer "(see also the idea of one-handed "long swords")."
Actually the "one-handed longswords" mentioned in AD&D were based on the Viking Long Sword, which was based off the roman Spada, which was based off the Celtic long sword. It was not based off the English long sword of the 15th century.
@@joshuarichardson6529 Oh that's interesting, do you have a source for that? My thought process was this: OD&D only had a "short sword" (one hand only), a "two-handed sword" (two hands only), and a "sword" (which could be used in one or two hands). The generic "sword" was the typical knightly sword, notably the basis of what would become the Paladin's Holy Avenger -- clearly more inspired by English arming swords or bastard swords than anything from the Vikings. The one-handed longsword in AD&D descends directly from the generic "sword" of OD&D (same damage, same magic items based on it, etc.), so it seemed reasonable to conclude that the prefix "long-" was only added to better distinguish it from the short sword, and not based on any real historical connection
The rhino hide studded leather is a cool idea and it makes sense from both a practical and mechanical perspective. You need less leather which if it's rhino, is probably at a premium due to both scarcity and risk, and it lets you cut to shape. Also, mounting it on a cloth front gives you alternating density, which could be helpful for stopping blows of various types. Very cool.
Middle Ages/Medieval Period is literally a term coined to specifically describe Europe in the time period after the fall of the Western Roman Empire and before the Renaissance. Saying how can Europeans be so full of themselves to think Middle Ages only applies to Europe would be like saying the Japanese are so full of themselves to think that the Edo period only applies to Japan.
Leather armor even in Europe persisted in some areas and for certain pieces until the late 14th century. Plenty of leather greaves in 1380's-90's Italian manuscripts. But yes, thank you for the look outside of Western Europe!
It also made a huge comeback in the 17th century in the form of the buff coat.
I have read about leather armor in italy in a Osprey!
I love the history presented in this video, but I am confused as to why you put Skallagrim, Shad, and Metatron in the thumbnail. What exactly are your gripes with them?
I mean Shad is an idiot and nobody who actually does reenactment and researches historical arms and armor takes him serious and nowadays he mostly cries about women in movies wearing pants and Metatron is kinda cringe sometimes. Skallagrim is a cool dude, though.
The video seems to agree with a thing that's often said - studded leather is not a thing - then conflates it with something I've never heard said - leather was not used as armor anywhere.
To be fair, using the term "medieval" already implies you're referring to Europe. It is a time reference that makes no sense for Asia. It would be like talking about Joseon dynasty France.
That kind of talk is actually pretty common in circles I've been part of - phrases like "Victorian-era Mexico" and "medieval Africa" are useful in helping someone more familiar with European history get an intuitive sense of what time period you're talking about without needing to specify a particular century or decade. Otherwise, people seem to default to "ancient," which is misleading and particularly unhelpful as it can lead people to downplay the relevance of the history being discussed. Just a few weeks ago, I described the Chaco civilization as "Viking-era," primarily to counter an article that had used the word "prehistoric" (which is technically true since there's no evidence they had a fully-formed writing system but is wildly misleading given that most people picture cavemen when they hear that word).
considering we use medieval to describe every continent within the medieval period in academia, no.
@@elijahoconnell it's helpful, for the reasons @LincolnDWard explains. But still, the term only makes sense in Europe. China was not "in the middle between Rome and Renaissance" during the middle ages. And using terms that only make sense in Europe is Eurocentric.
@iryisa This is TH-cam (a Western platform) where most people are not familiar with Chinese timeperiods...so using Eurocentric timeframes as a reference point does make sense. For example, we can say the Song Dynasty existed during the (European equivalent) "high middle ages" because most people have no idea the Song Dynasty was around the 10th-13th centuries.
No it doesn't to me anyway
Fun fact: the word Cuirass for a breastplate comes from boiled leather (cuir bouilli) being the original material that was used to make shaped chest armour in the medieval period.
A minor correction/nitpick. A cuirass isn't a breastplate, or just a breastplate to be exact. A cuirass is the combination of both a back and breasplate.
Couple corrections, it just came from the Latin for leather (corium), and they probably wouldn't have been made of leather by the medieval period, as the Roman's weren't medieval, and by the medieval period, if anyone was wearing a cuirass it was probably metal.
European history buffs focus on Europe when talking about the medieval period because it is explicitly a European historical period.
How did you define the period of time in this video? By referencing the fall of the Roman Empire...
I have never been more delighted to be wrong about a thing, than just now about leather armor. I literally went OOOOOHHH! out loud when you brought up Korean rhino hide armor.
Thanks for all your hard work, you're a treasure to the internet Kimchi
You weren't wrong. Leather armor was no more a real type of armor for people than paperclip chain armor is real in 2023 or rifles were a real weapon choice in the 1700's.
A super rare inferior absurd thing existing is not evidence it was a standardized or sensible choice. Just like no one went into battle with paperclip armor even though it does in fact exist as 1 in 10 million high-school prom outfits and battles at proms do occasionally occur.
@@nowayjosedanielI mean people ran into battle wearing no armor at all so that's completely moot
@@nowayjosedaniel Leather armor was not rare, nor was it always much worse than all metal armor. Japanese armor for example very often uses rawhide lamellae, either in combination with metal lamellae or by itself. To further harden the armor it is then laqcuered and one source mentions soaking in glue (練革) to make it stronger. A comparatively large amount of leather armor from Japan survives and the techniques to make it has never been lost. In this modern test it is demonstrated that leather and glue can become very strong in combination: th-cam.com/video/RO_nG6OpCKg/w-d-xo.html . It's of course not quite as good as a lot of metal armor, but it's also way better than a gambeson and a bit worse than or maybe even about on the level of maille, so it's inferiority is relative.
Buff coats were also used by all types of soldiers in the 17th century in Europe.
"roflstomped" Except for when they came up against kingdoms that were well prepared, then the Mongol's tended to lose (Hungary, Poland, Durdzuketi, Japan, Circassia, Volyn, the Lithuanians etc). The Mongols were good at choosing their targets, and they typically preferred countries in turmoil.
While the Mongols were indeed good at choosing targets (countries and areas in turmoil), some of those examples require more context. The Mongol Empire split apart in 1259 and the later Mongols who invaded Europe was the far weaker Golden Horde that didn't have access to the wealth, resources, manpower, and siege technology that the larger Mongol factions like the Ilkhanate and Yuan Empire had (not to mention the Golden Horde and Ilkhanate hated each other and entered into open warfare). For Japan, the Mongols were successful in their first invasion before the typhoon wiped out their fleet. The Mongols were less successful in their second invasion with their Korean-Mongol fleet/army unable to fight passed the new fortresses. This smaller Korean-Mongol fleet retreated to around Tsushima to await the larger Southern Chinese-Mongol fleet that hadn't even arrived yet....and then when it arrived, another typhoon arrived to wipe out both fleets.
@@Intranetusa
In the first invasion of Japan, it was when the Yuan-Mongols were retreating back to Korea did the storm hit. They were worried of their soldiers being too exhausted to fight and 2/3 commanders were wounded. They struggled to get past Kyushu, plus fearing a night raid, (the samurai did prepare a night attack at the nearby water castle in a last stand effort). So they went back on their ships to head back. On their way to resupply, the storm finished off many of them, leaving the Japanese to find empty ships and a couple dozen soldiers.
The second invasion, the Samurai took back several islands with decisive victories.
The mongols had a lot of trouble with terrain.
I too want to see Gambison in more stuff!
When I was doing a lot of motorcycling I was getting a lot of the "Modern impact" armor stuff, and it was so much better for me than all the leathers. Also infinitely more breatheable and safe.
Dress for the slide, not the ride.
There's a certain irony that the top suggested video is from one of the guys in the thumbnail, Skallagrim, called "leather and bone armour- not just fantasy!" from three years before this video. Looking into it a bit, Metatron also has a video on leather armour and partway through mentions mongolian lamellar... Look, the historical youtube community can always benefit from more people making well researched videos but please don't pretend you're the first to do so, it's dishonest and very disrespectful.
10:24 The cultures of the great steppe have placed great emphasis on metallurgy since the dawn of time. Even looking at the founding legends of the peoples of modern Mongolia, the Melting of the Iron Mountains is their key event. Moreover, the Scythians and Cimmerians were the heralds of metallurgy, spreading it among the sedentary tribes and probably inspiring the almost religious approach to it of groups included in the Halsttad and Latene cultures.
An amazing video that happened to be made at a time which I was looking into leatherworking for cosplays. Awesome work dude!
Amazing short, yet in depth dive into the topic!
I´m always curious for information on things like armor and weapons outside of the european areas, as their so underappreciated.
Thanks for the time and effort you took on this and I hope the vid does well.
Having done my graduate studies on the nuances of French armor in the fourteenth century, I do wish you had spent more time with leather in Europe. As a fan of armor in general, thank you for bringing up the world stage.
Great address on the topic, Kimchi. Thoughtfully and neatly researched, artfully delivered.
I have wondered much about this topic. Thanks for covering it!
Getting my Harley-riding father some gambeson for the holidays now, bam!
I love that you talk about armor displayed in film and costuming, it made my costumer heart happy.
This was such a great video: the editing and production is always so excellent on your work, but you really nailed it in this one!
Great video! This was much needed in my unending search for accuracy.
In defense of Shad's armor (middle person in the thumbnail, with the red armor): that's either his actual brigandine, or his LARP armor that was made to look like his actual brigandine.
Also: *_BURN THE ALGORITHM!_*
It's actual brigandine he's wearing goes over it in the video and shows the steel plates on the under side. also links the seller that made the armor.
@@AlternetRedSkys he also has a foam set of the same armor, which he wears because he struggles with the weight of the metal armor.
@@A._Person maybe because it isn’t made to fit him, lol
@@A._Person yeah but still when shad talked about studded leather and the brigandine he showed the metal armor in video.
I believe the point is more what Shad, Metatron and others have SAID than what they wear.
Hey I wanted to say that I love your videos. I was suggested this video through the Algorithm and I'm here to stay!
Your opinions and views are very thought provoking. I especially enjoyed your video on Bioessentialism.
I look forward to seeing more from you and your channel!
Leather was also used in European armour, maybe not as the main protection but as greaves or lining for a coat of plates that was worn underneath the surcoat and above the mail hauberk
It was used as torso protection, although not as commonly. There’s a few sources for boiled leather cuirasses - cuiries.
Leather was used for pretty much every part of the body in one form or another. Basically, any piece of metal plate could be made from boiled leather. It would have been even more common in the period where mail was ubiquitous but before extensive metal plate armour had been developed.
Unfortunately a lot of artistic depictions as well as effigies have the torso obscured by surcoats and other fabric garments. But in the 13th century and into the 14th, many such depictions hint at torso defences below the surcoat. Either with buckles or just odd shaping of the torso (if there was only meant to be mail there). Plus some early forms of knee protection, demi greaves, braces, etc, were likely made out of boiled leather and there are inventory records and original accounts of this.
What wasn't common was modern biker gang style leather clothing used as armour. But boiled leather was certainly used. But it was also very common throughout this period to simply use mail or textile armours or both.
@@ludinev9726And that's where the term cuirass originates.
@@nutyyyy Except it isn't boiled leather, despite the nomenclature. You can understand why the mistake was made by the people writing descriptions of the process, but actual "Boiled" leather is brittle and difficult to work with. They would use warm water, maybe even quite hot water, but definitely not boiling water.
I kept waiting for you to talk about the contemporary art from the periods you covered, because those are filled with illustrations of warriors wearing various types of leather armor.
Studded leather must be the most painful armor you’d ever use. With every hit you’re gonna feel every stud in your skin
😂😂😂
Your channel has amazing insight! Keep up the great work! I especially enjoy geopolitical and social themes.
When people complain about leather armor they usually not talk about movies about Asia. They talk about films depicting or based on European culture. Vikings, Game of Thrones, The last kingdom and such like. And yes leather armor/clothing as depicted in movies is ridiculous. Also in Europe they used leather armor. Just that they called it coat, jacket etc.
Thanks for the awesome video! Love your content and excited to see your next video
What an incredible video!
Now do the coolest type of armour that never shows up in fantasy: Wooden plate armour!
❤ Loved the maps and you did a great job tackling the history of Armour, or Armor?
I know the point was that it was more than just them, but I really feel like this video could use a Crash Course Mongoltage: "We're the Exception!"
The thing about "studded leather armor" and typical leather armor in fantasy media is that it's used as the garment itself, rather than particularly thick, hard peices being layered on top or within to make it actually withstand some sort of blow.
We are wearing gambason, sort of. We exchanged many layers of cotton with kevlar.
I was never really sure how the concept of "studded leather" worked exactly. Cloth being studded with leather squares? That makes a lot more sense to me.
Also, the name LegalKimchi makes me think of a literal bowl of kimchi in a courtroom.
Coat of plates/brigandine.
Wow you really packed a lot in here! Pleasure to watch 😁
Alaskan coin armor was supposedly capable of stopping pistol shots and even rifle fire at long ranges! Im iffy on that, but it's really cool armor and it's neat to hear it mentioned! I think I remember seeing some in an Alaskan museum when I lived there as a child
True, it is generally forgotten that metal (bronze/steel) was difficult to mine, refine and forge, until the industrial revolution, leather was the option for the common warrior from ancient times until the advent of firearms, greetings from Brazil
Something I'd be curious to understand is WHY leather was not as prevalent in European warfare. Does Europe have a higher concentration of metal deposits making metal armor more economical? Was leather somehow not as useful against more prevalent weapons of the era?
Because it does seem an interesting quirk that it WAS so often used elsewhere to not show up in there.
My guess is yeah, the abundance of iron and early development of mail just made leather absolete. Just not enough need for it between gambeson and iron, the good leather from large cattle likely got all used in the homes of the aristocracy. But yeah plenty of iron and forests to fuel the forges i think had a lot to do with it
pretty much yes to all of the above. europe is an incredibly rich area in terms of metals. i mean hell, usually when you think about quality steel to this very day you think "Germany". and it is also fair to mention that when dealing with bladed weapons meant to cut through hide, wearing more hide as protection doesn't work as well as say, metal.
a lot of what it comes down to as well was touched on in the video. european wars were rather localized affairs. they could afford to not only invest in the equipment needed to forge metal gear, but also invest in staying in one spot long enough to mine for metals. being the smallest continent means you dont have to deal with as many logistics of transport when attacking you're neighbors. you simply dont have to go all that far to do it.
@@foxboy64 okay, the supply logistics also makes sense. When you don't have to lug your 100lbs of metal 300 miles for every conflict, the upkeep resources are also kept modest.
Keep in mind that leather armor in the form of the buff coat became one of the most popular forms of protective gear in Europe during the 17th century. Good buff coats cost a fair bit of money, offered impressive protection, & some were even supposedly proof against the sword & pike. While it's possible Europeans simply ended up downgrading their defense kit - the 17th century was a rather brutal time, with lots of economic disruption - I'm hesitant to conclude that without more extensive & rigorous tests. The buff coat may have provided a mix of comfort, convenience, & protection that had advantages over other armor options like mail, plate, & fabric.
Two thoughts: First, back then, leather was both plentiful, and used for EVERYTHING. So, is it not possible that they recycled the armor into other things?
Second: The Vikings lived in places that got REALLY cold. Leather would be better than metal armor at helping keep you warm. Even with some of the items worn beneath them
On a separate track, leather was cheaper than fabric armor, and could be made faster. All the people talking up Gambesons forget that what THEY wear is closer to what a wealthy lord would have. Standard soldiers would have a much thinner gambeson, because they would not be able to afford, or afford to maintain, heavy cloth armor.
This was super cool. I've got a lot of fun things I can bring to my game now. Also the little comments on each country were great.
Loved it. But, bikers in gambesons. Leather slides. I had a buddy in uni who liked to go biking, in Ontario so he tried not to let winter stop him.
One day he came into class with an assortment of casts and bandages. Turns out when you wipe out wearing a parka you don't slide, you tumble. He figured that in leather he would have been be fine.
Otherwise great vid. I used to have a pair of wrists supports (made by an OT) of boiled leather and they were tough stuff. Definately more knife resistant than a pliable leather jacket.
This is fantastic. Thank you for this information!
I'll have to go and take a look at the three youtubers videos on leather armour to refresh my memory on what their points were, but going off what I can recall I think they were talking about whether it was a thing in Europe or not, or how practical the stuff in fantasy TV/Movies tends to be... Or not to be. But I have wondered if leather armour might have been a thing in Europe before the medieval period, or the Roman Empire or even if leather armour was used in same way during those periods as additional padding under mail.
I've also wondered if other cultures had made use of it, either in the same time period or outside it, and I certainly didn't have any idea just how far into Europe the Mongols had gotten, so that's a couple of "new" things I've learned today and hopefully I'll get a chance to learn a few more things about it.
One additional thing I'd like to add. I've been to a few (certainly not all) medieval, Roman and Viking based museums in Britain over the years, and there are examples of leather work there. These are almost always things like sandals, bits of old belts, sheaths and similar, all in a bad, unusable state. I've never seen any examples of leather armour in those same museums, but I don't make any assumptions as I've not even tried to look up any history books on the subject.
To be fair these youtube channels you mention usually talk about europe and not the wolrd... so they are not really assuming lether wasn't used anywhere, but i get your point
ABSOLUTE GOLD.
And Thank You for Brigandine.
There are some interesting examples of adding leather strips to maille, having worn alot of maille, im not sold on the idea, but, meh.
Regarding studded leather, there are some Indian examples with disks and rings sewn to cloth, but not sure if ever on leather.
Love a gambeson, but they are very exhausting to wear, big heat sink, but people forget things like maille are ALSO a big heat sink, the mass of steel just holds the heat in! Its not and never was the weight, its the fact your entirely covered and can't shed heat thats exhausting with any armour, and especially helmets!
When have those other youtubers argued against leather armor? I'm quite familiar with Chadiversity, but I've only heard him rail against *studded* leather. He's often said that people unable to afford metal armor would use leather.
Yeah, Skall and Metatron have on many occasions been on the side of arguing FOR types of leather armor being used historically. Also, including Metatron when making an argument for Eurocentric bias is almost comical as so much of his knowledge and study is Asian (specifically Japanese) history.
I remember some early chadiversity videos where he argued against leather armor, but i also stopped watching him, after i find several issues where he let his own opionins shine through, instead of being impartial.
I'm very much looking forward to this, if there's three people I'd love to see refuted it's those guys
Let's take a moment to appreciate how colourful and surprisingly accurate some movies from the 50s portrayed medieval times compared to the modern "everyone wears fur, black, brown and grey, wears armour straight out of Warhammer and everything is covered in mud" of today.
Thank you for vindicating leather armour's use in the several overlapping time periods collectively called the medieval ages. I'd researched quite a bit of this myself after repeatedly hearing talk on TH-cam of leather armour not being much of a thing and not very protective, and ultimately decided to keep it in my games because those claims didn't hold up. You are doing excellent work shedding light on this slander against leather armour.
Missed this video when it came out last year, but as someone who spent a lot of time compiling a list of African hide armours for a project, I'm glad to see someone pushing back against Shad and company's lunacy.
Oh no, with this I might fall back into watching countless hours of lectures about medieval warfare! I haven’t seen a debunking of a History Channel documentary for years and now I really feel the itch again.
You did a great job putting the usual lens of history TH-cam into perspective and while learning about Europe‘s history might be more relevant to me as a European it is only a small part of the picture.
Saying that, LEATHER ARMOUR IS A MYTH AND MEDIEVAL WARRIORS WERE NOT BIKER GANGS… Sorry, I think a ghost flew through my brain for a second. And the Mongols were the first Biker Gang.
I think the biggest part about why people would believe leather armor to be unrealistic is that they have no actual concept about what kind of durability or damage arms and armor could sustain and/or do when applied in reality. They acquaint something they saw on a movie or heard some " Expert " on TH-cam or History Channel (God forbid, history Channel is trash) to their own intelligence and say "yeah, that checks out" and call it a day.
most history channels talk specifically baout the fantasy leather armor that is most of the time pretty stupid and does look more like biker jackets (vikings tv show)
as you see in his very asian focus you see they look way different than the fantasy ones and look more practical
This was cool and interesting, but the Mongolian Empire happens during Renaissance (at least for Europe). The Middle Ages were already over. Yet Leather armor was used in Medieval times in Europe, mostly by the poor and the regular foot soldier (only the aristocrats and the important knights were equipped with metal)
I would disagree that the 1200s would be the Renaissance. That was the time of Genghis Khan and the start of the empire and the invasions of Europe. The earliest I've seen historians state the Renaissance started was the 1300s/14th century. Most have the Renaissance starting in the 15th century, by which time the mongolian empire had broken up. (Unless you are referring to the golden horde, but that started after the breakup)
Great topic with informative insights
1.) This video was great and really informative!
2.) Those map graphics were amazing! Super clean and beautifully done
Just saying "we have to start with definitions" got you an upvote. More people need to do that.
Great video. How'd you go about translating the Korean text without knowing much Korean?
Bruh, if you want to talk about citing sources and being dishonest and disingenuous, you know, lawyer traits; at least have the courtesy to refer to which Metatron video is wrong on what exact citation with the timestamp yourself; you know, like legal ethics which evaporate with the snap of a finger these days. I had to rewatch his videos on the topic and he already covered what you refer to, or clearly separated regions as a topic.
Buff coats (like those used in the English Civil war) used in the later part of the era of Pike & Shot, were a form of leather armor in Europe.
Cuirass, the French word for breastplate, essentially means leather covering. Cuir means leather.
They were also used by Central Asian nomads from the Scythians to the Huns to the Avars to the Magyars to the Mongols and many others.
This is incorrect. Cuirass doesn't even mean breastplate.
Oh shit, speaking of indigenous North American armor, have you seen Malcolm PL's video of creating Iroquois armor based on the limited evidence from the written and museum records? It's a really cool series, and his content is always worth a check out. He also shows off some leather making.
I had not heard of malcolm PL, but thank you for the info! i'll start binging his channel now!
@@LegalKimchi yeah, he's great, an indigenous artist I follow turned me onto his work like a year ago when I was looking for references and he hasn't disappointed. The armor video is great, and his video on how terrible the written version of the Iroquois language is because French the French missionaries used as a base is just awful at doing what his language does and how the community gets around it. It's both funny and cool.
Also, a lot of forging and crafting work, cause he forges and crafts a lot.
looking forward to your next upload
I now have plans to include a trip to Mongolia in a story that I've been trying to get set up.
You mention there is only one museum dedicated to arms and armor in the United States, the only one I was aware of was the Higgins Armory Museum in Worcester, MA. That however closed in Dec of 2013 and the collection was absorbed by the Worcester Art Museum. Which museum were you referencing?
Thank you for this. Well done!
Wonderful! Thoroughly enjoyed this
I’m fairly sure “studded leather” came from some variants of lamilar (probably misspelled that) where the stud was used to hold the layers together. And there were incredibly few examples left because, as you said, leather rots.
I will remember this next time I run a thing with Hobgoblins, since they are a stepp like people in PF.
I was so happy that this video popped up on my recommended list. This is an excellent video. Informative, concise, and earnestly explained. I love it. Just quickly browsed through your channel, and there is some good stuff in there. You just got yourself a new subscriber.
I think your description of Korea's primary exports is pretty spot on. I'm not sure about best food on the planet, though I will say it is right most of the time except when I'm in a Mexican, or Italian state of stomach.
Hardened leather armor is amazingly tough, rigid, and resistant. Don't equate it to leather as you think of in leather jackets and bags. It is extremely stiff and solid, and can be very thick.
7:28 For riveted Coat armor of Korea, the main armor when using leather scales consisted of (wild pig) (deer) (roe deer)(cow)(horse). As a Korean, I've never ever heard about using rhino... Same in the paper in the source link, where there is no mention of using such exotic animal. Eastern Asia was completely cut off from silk road trade routes at that point, so it is highly unlikely that people had access to rhino skin at all.
Deerskin & wild pigskin was indeed rated as higher quality than cowhide usually, but any production batch in large quantities inflated prices of leather so much that leather of domesticated stock had to be used in some cases. Using metal plates like coat of arms and brigandine was favored for cavalry who could carry more weight, due to increased protection. For all troops, laminated paper or leather armor offered more insulation in winter, and metal ones were not favored due to loss of heat in harsh winter months. Before riveted armors became common, our main armor was taking form of lamellar armor with leather or metal scales (or sometimes laminated paper fibers), contruction of which changed little from those originating from Chinese Jin & Han dynasty.
I appreciate your comment. But East Asia's use of rhino hide did not come from the silk road. The rhino used was the asian rhino, not the African rhino. While species like the Javan rhino have been hunted to near extinction, currently only dozens remain) they, and many other species of rhino, were native to East and southeast Asia. Documentation is better for China, but East asian civilizations were using rhino hide from the Zhou dynasty around 1000 bce to about the tang dynasty in the 600s. As you can see, rhino hide use predates the silk road, but it only lasted to the very early stages of the middle ages.
If there was leather armor in medieval europe, it probably was not the leather we are thinking about, the stuff that we use for biker jackets and gloves and shoes. It was probably very stiff , boiled with wax, half-tanned, oiled, tarred, any number of these and probably more, and ugly as sin compared to the tooled leather pads that we see on fantasy armor.
Leather was also in demand for more things than armor. Main difference was parchment being used for writing instead of bamboo slats or paper in comparison to Asia. That left leather in higher demand than usual with less supply than usual compared to other cultures (native americans for example having abundant wildlife to harvest leather from). So the price difference between leather and metal armor was less significant, and the price between cloth armor and leather armor was probably closer than in other cultures as well.
So, due to lack of evidence, we have to go with logic:
Leather was available.
It was feasible for them to make armor out of leather.
So the only question left is: How good was it in comparison to the alternatives, for the price?
And I think that is the point where europe diverged from other world cultures.
I always thought that leather armour was just an America thing: Mexicas and Purepechas used hardened leathers on top of their "gambesons". My thought always was "well leather does protect but repairing it from a cut must suck ass so it probably was only used in places without bladed weapons like Oceania and America". Very cool video, me like
(*first off, I really enjoy these kinds of videos, and am a low-level leather worker interested in the truth)
I'm half-Tlingit and from south east Alaska. I can guarantee that smock with the chinese coins was made as a display of wealth and status, and was never intended as protection (in case any thought that). We were a super violent and highly trained warrior tribe whose boys were raised by their uncles from age 6 (no more than age 7) when the mother sends the boy off to one of her brothers to adopt the boy and raise him in another clan because a Tlingit father could never torture and train his son without mercy, to toughen him up to survive and thrive in Alaska so he can become a successful Tlingit warrior and hunter for the tribe. Uncles took great delight in heaping physical and mental abuses on their boys because it meant the warrior it produced would be second to none and the tribe would live on.
Tlingit always live at the edges of the ice (glaciers) and survived being trapped in the ice-free zone in modern Canada where they lived through most of the last Ice Age, in between the two North American ice sheets, for the duration of the Ice Age period called The Younger Dryas when the Ice age came back full force for over 800 years which caused the two ice sheets to permanently close off one winter and never unfroze until 800 years later. The tribe went through 8 year winters and 3-month summers to gather enough food to survive the next long winter, and every short summer had less and less food available since the migration routes for caribou/elk/deer were closed off and the hunted & gathered food supply became smaller each warm season until they were starving and eating anything they could chew including dead tribe members. They sent out many expeditions through the generations to find a way out of the deadly ice fields of the mega-glaciers, but none came back with a way out.
Navajo are an offshoot of the Tlingit and were one of the expedition groups of men & women who were sent to out to find a way for the tribe to make it out, or to find a way out and stay safe if it was too dangerous to go back for the tribe so that Tlingit could live on. Navajo are one of the surviving expeditions. Tlingit is a more complex version of the Navajo language and in human history all languages become more simple once a group breaks off from it's mother tribe permanently. DNA testing eventually confirmed this.
And there were both Navajo Code Talkers and Tlingit Code Talkers in World War 2.
They were some of the toughest humans walking the planet in a time when everyone was tough.
They made Spartans look like weenies until the mid to late 1800's, and fought with knives, spears, war clubs before the gun was introduced to them, and would have had different levels of leather and wood armor based on the expected combat. Or no armor to show how brave you are.
So that coin-studded smock was for showing off as a rare and valuable garment, and it might have been worn in combat, but if it was it was to show the enemy how important and big and wealthy of a man you are as you crush his skull in and showed your fellow clansmen how you were willing to risk the garment in combat just to show it off. It might even just been worn as a good luck item during combat.
By "warrior tribe", I mean we controlled the whole south east coast of Alaska and into Canada a bit, until the U.S. Navy pacified us by trying to wipe us off the map by killing our women & children with bombardment from naval vessels off shore of the towns and villages while the men were away fighting the U.S. troops hand-to-hand elsewhere up and down the south east coast of Alaska (10:1 kill ratio, and there were 15,000 geeked-out Tlingit commandos ready and eager to die in combat, they would have needed to devote 150,000 troops to the problem, and they were currently fighting a Civil War in the distant South and decided the best way was threat of extinction by killing the women and children). No, I'm not crying over it. A warrior tribe has to respect power to survive.
I learned something too... how to turn a leather armour into a cash sink for all those unused coins my Adventurers insist on carrying all the way to the next village: Give them to a crafter to upgrade your armour ! :)
It's probably a bit later than preferred period fantasy, but English Civil War footmen wore, predominantly, buff coats. These were oil tanned heavy leather, typically buffalo hide, and were reckoned pretty useful both against edged weapons and stray musket balls. Where the presumption fails is probably with the Viking peoples, who not only made excellent mail, but seem to have preferred linen clothing to leather wherever possible. This may have had something to do with the smell of some kinds of leather - Vikings were cleanly people.
The notion the mongols had no metalcraft of their own is an old one that has since been updated. eithin the vast nations of steppe warriorsany settled and founded towns and cities. Some were not fully nomadic to begin with and could set up forges pretty easyly every other season.
All that aside we knoe the kongols employed a heavy lancer as well. armed with varios forms if metal armor.
In the past 10 years or so they've excavated Estonian leather vambraces reinforced with metal splints with rows of studs running inbetween the splints. The vambraces themselves are constructed of two layers of horse leather and the studs are mostly decorative. These would have been from some time in the 14th century.
Honestly I think if movies showed more how leather armor is actually used it would definitely debunk the myth. For example boiled leather is surprisingly durable for what it is.
Thanks for the Asian perspective. I recently checked into Mongol Khatangu Degel brigandine armor of the Golden Horde before the YT algo washed you into my timeline.
Leather wasn't an abundant ressource. The manual processing labor involved is crazy high. Also the competing uses are plenty. Event today a full hide coupon goes for 400 to 800 EUR/USD. So a single viking shield consumes 1 entire animals cupon and is a 400 to 800 EUR/USD prop. The assumption is even most Vikings would have a canvas covered shield, The canvas would still be attached with bone glue - a very firewood consuming, smelly and tediously labor intese affair to brew as chemical.
Leather was incredibly valuable for saddle making and yokes and dozens of other highly critical applications to a medieval society,
However - row cropping and cars did vastly reduce the worlds horse & cow population.
Down the line everyone interested on the internet does learn a lot more about different cultures armors. In the 90ies I had to use speaciality books in a library and could not simply look at a webshop sell me a Khatangu Degel kit or find instruction how these were made never leaving my couch. Fantasy in media can only benefit from it as a genre.
As a shad fan, I admit I was skeptical at first but you really made a great point here and I hope to see some response/dialog.
I enjoyed his videos until he hopped on that weird AI art defense arc
@@wumbojetI'm not sure what happened with Shad
The guy used to be one of my favorites, even when he was just sitting in a chair talking about stuff!
Something got lost along the way with him I think. I check in on his giant sword progress every once in a while, but it's not half as interesting as him talking about midieval construction techniques
Interesting vid, thanks!
"Leather has been one of the basic tools of our species" does ring weird as leather does not tend to be made out of our species.
neither are most of the other tools used by our species?
Also you forgot to mention that most famous of all Leather Armor.
Lamellar Armor, or at least ones that use leather along with metal.
This also applied to "Eurocentrism" (at least western) since those armors tend to be seen in Eastern Europe (Witcher and Kingdom Come Deliverance, even if latter is Czech) and Steppe culture if the creator is well-educated.
People used what they had not everybody had access to volumes of metal. I have seen bone covered armor , Turtle shell plates, hemp knotted tightly, wooden strips. Even in Europe it took a long time before full metal armour was created , and a lot of people could not afford a full suit.
Fantastic Vid! time to go read more about gambesons
Great video, makes a lot of sense. One or two of the other channels you allude to, are a bit too full of themselves at times. But an important question. Why do you sound the same as Robert Picardo from Star Trek Voyager? 😉
Great video. I'm really interested in finding out how the Tlingit people ended up with a bunch of Chinese coins now. Thinking of of running a campaign in a medieval fantasy East Asia setting, any pointers?
There used to be a land bridge between Alaska and Russia (they even used to be one region called Beringia), so probably just the kinda regional trade we see all over antiquity.
Fantastic video! I love the research (and the added effort to translate Korean scholarly articles!). Thank you for all the great work and effort that went into this video (and your other videos). And yes, the rest of the world is really big!
So in the end what Shad and Skall say is technically correct (about Metatron I have no idea) if I remember correctly, Skall has a video on the types of armor with leather and bone
And Shad only needed to clarify (or for people to understand) that his point was about Europe
Coming from someone who fights in a gambeson quite often, I am always trying to get more folks to respect it in games XD
I’m def going to post this to the history channel in my schools dnd club discord.
This was neat, thanks.
Liked and subbed now!
Leather armour did exist in Europe. However, it appears to have been either after the medieval period (replacing the gambesson for some reason with leather jacks?) or to fill a niche such as bracers protecting archers. I assume that shoes and gloves could be counted as well and perhaps some other armour was made for the legs.
Although I wouldn't really see those bracers really as armor in the sense of "protection gear against attacks". It's more safety equipment to protect you from your own bow. I mean, nobody would call a hardhat on a construction site or eyewear while shooting guns "armor".
I may need to start a Gambeson-wearing motorcycle gang!
Please DON'T! As i learned after making this video, the reason that gambeson like fabrics are not used for motorcyclists is because the fabric would catch on the asphalt. this would result in greater chance of injury through tumbling and flipping on the road!
Let me start by saying that this video was fun and informative and I learned some new stuff, and I thank you for that. And I do agree, some swordtubers rarely gave info about the source they're using, and they are (most of them) just enthusiasts not real historians, so they do make mistakes.
But I have some problems understanding your criticism of those TH-camrs who "disregard" leather armour. I am subscribed to about 10 of most popular (seen in your thumbnail and in video), for a while now, so I watched thousands of hours of their videos.
1. 6:30 Yes, medieval times usually means European medieval times. I'm pretty sure that the rest of the really big world wasn't effected by fall of Rome or fall of the Constantinople.
2. 7:00 I like how you say "Eurocentric" like it's something bad to be interested in such small area that's full of history... Is it?
3. 7:46 If you had trouble translating text from Korean (and you say you don't know it that well) - how do you expect that people who don't speak it at all know what's written in it? Or any other source from any of hundreds of languages they don't speak?
4. Above all - when they talk about leather armour not being real, they most of the time talking about depictions of it in pop culture.
Any way, I hope my English isn't that bad, and I really hope I don't sound like angry fan boy - because I'm not a fanboy (but maybe I am little angry). Cheers!
I appreciate the comment. This isn't really directed at them. It is directed to the history loving audience of youtube.
1) I know that medieval generally has a geographic area attached to it. And i think the sword tubers do too. But i think the general public are asking because they want to know about how it relates to their fantasy games or ttrpgs (which is my area). and many of them aren't thinking of it as eurocentric. so i wanted to expand the scope globally of that time frame.
2) Eurocentric is only a bad thing if it is to the detriment of the rest of the world's history. It isn't that more history happened in europe than elsewhere, it is that the english speaking audience are not taught the history that happened elsewhere. That is part of what i am trying to work on with my videos.
3) I don't expect everyone to do this work. I said as much in the video. Again, i just want to make sure the audience knows there is more out there if they want to find it.
4) and for sure, many make the separation, but some of them did not. I saw those videos and many of them are dismissive of leather being used at all. (Skallagrim is notable, actually, in that he is not dismissive of it and provided examples. I love that guy's videos)
this is more about expanding folks perspective on history and gaming. glad you enjoyed the video!
@@LegalKimchi For this not being directed at them, it's quite direct in its mentioning of them and in its criticisms of their arguments (and perhaps more importantly the ways they present their arguments) at multiple points. Not saying that there's anything wrong with that sort of discourse, and I'm not trying to attack you in any way with this reply. I'd like to keep this conversation civil and mention that out the gate. But that is somewhat confrontational, and when criticizing them for the lawyer approach of "well, I actually meant X" in the comments as somehow invalid, it's interesting that you would do the same. I'm just pointing out the obvious.
Moving on to the topic at hand: in the sense of a TTRPG or fantasy worlds in general, theme and logistics should be considered in the worldbuilding. If you have a more Asiatic inspired setting where proper metal armor is harder to come by, or where large quantities of strong fabrics like linen can't be processed into (the broadly superior from what I've seen of serious attempts at leather armor) gambeson quite as readily, or perhaps where there are stronger sources of leather such as rhinos and the like, sure, leather works. In a handful of specific circumstances... which fantasy settings virtually never portray.
Leather being commonplace in, for example, the legions of Cyrodiil in the Elder Scrolls setting doesn't make nearly as much sense as it would for the Mongols or the Koreans, as they are both drowning in metal with which to protect themselves and don't have ready access to creatures with hides as tough as rhinos for mass production of leather armor. Their ability to smith metals is also vastly superior to that of Native Americans in the middle ages. At least as far as we can tell. So that doesn't hold either. If they were to use animal based materials, it's more likely that they, being a sedentary society with advanced methods for working fabrics, would develop textile armors first anyhow and pursue that line of thinking until it became ill-suited to the task of protecting their soldiers.
This example applies to the vast majority of fantasy settings in which studded leather is seen.
Also, as a sidenote here before I continue: you said at one point that metal armor would not work with the Mongol style of warfare. I'm going to ignore Cumans and their preference for mail layered under metal lamellar with iron or steel helmets and enclosed faceplates for a moment, because if I start nerding out about them, we'll be here for a while. But, I have to ask what you think cataphracts are?
Some 10% of the Mongol horde decked out head to toe in iron or steel lamellar including horse armor. Sure, they're not in plate armor, but it's a bit bold to make the assertion that they had no use for steel. In fact iron lamellar armor was common across the horde, even in light skirmishing cavalry. The mongols weren't the only steppe people to use that sort of heavy shock cavalry in metal armor, either. Parthians are famous for them, as are the Cumans, Khazars and others, all of which had similar limitations economically speaking when the unit was introduced to their combat doctrine. The Byzantines even adopted them later on, as did the Rus, and for a long time, they were the most effective and best armored shock cavalry in the world. Long before the traditional European knight was born. It wasn't just some stopgap that came out of a need to compete, they were the trendsetter that inspired European styles of armored knights.
Back on topic, in many of these videos, yes, they are taking a Eurocentric view. Because they are typically criticizing historical dramas set in Europe or very similar fantasy settings where European styles of plate armor and mail are not only available but almost as common as the leather if not moreso, where the people have the infrastructure to maintain that advanced type of armor indefinitely, and where weaponry designed to kill knights in full plate can be found at a corner store, which doesn't bode well for out rogue's health in the long term. Worse still these leather armors typically don't appear to be composite pieces like you would expect for any functional sense of protection even without warhammers, stiletto daggers, flanged maces and various forms of pointy polearms with armor piercing spikes.
I'm not saying that it's a bad thing to expand perspectives. Quite the opposite, and there are many interesting applications for leather armor. Building a world in which they are more common would certainly be interesting as that has far reaching implications. But that's not what's being criticized, and that doesn't make these views invalid or worthy of derision in their proper contexts. Leather armor is hard to pull off well under the best circumstances, and in a (Eurocentric) medieval setting, it doesn't make any real sense given the wide variety of textile armors (hard and soft) that are more sustainable, easier to repair, cheaper and provide better protection even if we ignore the wide prevalence of iron and steel and adamantium and whatever else in these settings.