It is Ideal, you know! even watching on a phone the scale was easy to see. My dad suggested long ago that the ideal was never accurate enough to use as a height gauge.. but a relative run-out indicator to center a workpiece in a 4 jaw, it was 'ideal'... because absolute value is unimportant, but seeing relative runout in jaw centering is important. We had one on the lathe for decades.. I have no clue where it went.. many of dad's tools disappeared after his passing. This video was sort of a memory trip. THANKS!
Mr. Pete, a stained or lightly rusted block is not unusable, it is unreliable, for rough work it can tell you when you are close.When that ideal indicator was new it was probably accurate enough that it sold well. Back then was about the same as when you were in your prime you did not buy crap junk tools. You got the best you could afford, not the lowest cost you could find. I am 10 years younger than you, I am almost a shut-in, thank you for being on TH-cam. You keep me from wasting to uselessness. One of the problems as I aged is essential tremor, it is hard to eat peas with a spoon unless I smash them a little. My trade, I worked on computer systems I used to rebuild disc drive heads and platters. I could measure the thickness of the film left after alcohol evaperated, it mattered which kind we used because of the film. Keep up your great work, you are not boring us.
I love the history. It is important for all of the current CNC guys to understand how we got here. Things used to be done on paper with pencil and slide rule, not CAD/CAM and CNC... I was sad the day my Grandfather died because he had lived from the age of the horse and buggy up til the Space Shuttle... To have been able to see the change that took place in just one man's lifetime... So thank you for sharing the history, it is very important!!!
The dog ate my algebra homework once,it looked like someone took a pair of pinking shears and went all around the edges! My proper type German algebra teacher still accepted it because all the work was readable. Although he wasn't pleased!
Thanks for dismantling the Ideal indicator. I've got one of the type over here in the UK, it very dirty and 'stuck', so soaking in a sealed jar of brake cleaner, think it might be a Starret. I now know what to expect when I strip it down. My plan, assuming I can get it to work, is to check the run out in my lathe on set up so really using it as a comparator, accuracy of measurement is not important. As always a fascinating project with history lesson thrown in for free.
Mr. Pete, you are a stern taskmaster - I did the mandatory Wikipedia reading and actually learned a bit (and refreshed quite a bit). A really good idea, sending us momentarily back to the classroom!
I did my required reading Mr Pete. I found both pages very intresting. So many good links to click on and read. I bet Wikipedia have noticed a large spike of people viewing those pages thanks to you. We had our Apprentice Training Master, Mr Ray Benson. (In Australia trade called "Fitter & Turner" ) You remind me of him.. Thanks.
I am amazed where you find all these old instruments let alone the time and work you invest into a video like that one, actually all your videos. Thanks, it was very informative. This must have been even before my time.
When you place the Jo-Blocks under the Ideal, the whole unit looks to flex on the close-up video, as if the mount may be loose. The thicker the block, the greater the deflection seemed to be. I think the accuracy of the unit itself was okay. With a couple of Last Words, the Ideal is redundant anyway. Keep 'em coming Schulmeister!!
Tolerances and accuracy from 1900 are still usable today. But the metrology advances made between 1900 and today are almost miraculous! It's so cheap to measure accurately now, but machining to what we can measure is still expensive, or time consuming... More than 3 digits to the right of the decimal is getting into the noise. I wonder if kids nowadays learn about significant digits anymore? I was trained at the end of the sliderule age, and significant digits were hammered into us at every turn. Even after calculators were affordable.
Not quite where I was going, but accurate non-the-less! I like the wit! It's not just for students, tho. I've been out of university for almost 30 years now, and my stagnant wages don't spread as far as they used to.... I was aiming for this: th-cam.com/video/5UjwJ9PIUvE/w-d-xo.htmlm8s
@@stxrynnWhat? Everyone knows that the circumference of a circle with a diameter of 10 inches is 31.415926535897932384626433832795 inches, not 31 or 31.4 Who are you trying to fool? But yeah you'd think NASA would need some hairy accuracy when plotting a course to Mars, but no. they use 3.14
@@bcbloc02 ...because those were not insignificant in the employed metric. Right? Plank's constant has significant digits out to 10^42. Atomic force microscopes detect deflection's in the picoNewton range. It doesn't change what I said about calculating a trajectory to Mars.
I really enjoyed your Video on Carl Johansson. Thank you. I felt that I was right back in shop class oh so many years ago. I can still see my shop teacher, and I sware that I heard his voice when you gave out the assignment. I did both assignments by the way. I am anxiously awaiting your follow-on using calipers. Thanks Again Gary 75-Year-Old Home-Shop-Machinist in North West Arkansas
I have a test indicator that at first glance is a duplicate of the Ideal indicator. Mine is British made and has a cut-out window so that the indicating needle doesn't have to be split. It has a 0.015" range. One side is graduated in Imperial and the other side is metric. I've found it to read accurately across it's range. I've had the indicator over 50 years, but rarely use it. Test indicators like the Starrett Last Word are more convenient to use.
My grandfather was a tool and die maker, and he had one of the those Ideal indicators, it was what I used as a kid. I remember when using it my father talking about the superior Last Word indicators so they became a little legendary in my mind. I never saw one until I started working in a job shop.
Our tool room grinder from Manila said that they didn't have any fancy test indicators during his machinist training. They used a piece of wire mounted on a pivot point to dial in the parts. This is the same principle as your antique test indicator without the graduations on the scale. they probably had a weight on the side of the wire contacting the part to keep it engaged with the surface of the part being dialed in.
The concept and execution of this video is BRILLIANT! Thank you... now I feel confident checking my own indicators... I have a few of the "Ideal" indicators... never used them... I assumed they were not as accurate as newer products... now I know for sure.
Mr. Pete, I have a small collection of vintage mechanical test indicators. The Ideal is my favorite. I bought it on EBAY for $3.00. Coincidently, the original price was $3.00. It is so compact. I keep it set up in a QC toolholder on my 12in. Atlas lathe. I get very good results indicating my work. Thanks for all the great videos. Howie
ok Mr. Pete, we know that you never throw anything away. LOL. When I was working, we just bought new gage block sets that were Chinese made as it was far cheaper to buy new ones rather than pay for calibration. At the time, 6 years ago, you could buy them on sale for under $ 100.00 USD and they came with certification. Good to see that you moved the gage blocks to the indicator as you never move the indicator to the piecework, also do not moving directly towards the indicator stylus, but at a sideways movement, or from the hinge side. there is less chance of ' bouncing ' the set up. Lever indicators were never meant to check multiple heights, only used for repeatability due to cosine errors. You need to get your hands on an Interapid or an Alina .0001 indicator if you can. Then you can have some real fun with testing. have fun !
Thank you Mr Pete. I have a partial set of miss matched gauge blocks and there are some with Johansen, Ford and Brown & Sharp. I also saw the calibration video that you mentioned.
Thanks again for another great video. I wish to take exception with one of your statements. When you started to disassemble the ideal indicator you said,"this is a job for a jeweler." I think you might have met a watchmaker since jewelers make jewelry and for the most part do not repair watches or other small instruments. I hope that no one thinks this is too critical since I love watching these videos. Paul.
If you look very carefully at the tip of the Ideal indicator as you put the blocks under it the body of it moves upwards very slightly. I'm watching on a 37inch monitor btw.
What a neat old indicator! I'll bet it could be brought back in to zero, but it has done it's work and we just need to appreciate it for the well-designed instrument it is. Thanks, Mr. Pete! :-)
Great video Mr. Pete....you mentioned not storing tools in a wooden box. What is the reason that many tool makers have a Gerstner chest? I built boxes out of walnut for storing my grind vises and spin fixture. I put piece of camphor in the boxes and it seems to keep things from rusting. Keep up the great videos!
The primary pivot shows considerable slop, indicating it is severely worn thus causing the error measured. A challenge or the old eyes would be to manufacture a new bushing to restore it to useful condition. I'm seventy four and have several magnifying devices for the times I stupidly try something like that (lol). Love your videos. From "downunder".
You can take the teacher out of the classroom but you can't take the classroom out of the teacher, most interesting. Thanks I enjoy the historical sections very much.
I hope you're ok after the Harbor Freight visit. ...?? I go there occasionally. I like to look around. Once in a while I will buy something. I assume you exchanged the first caliper... Thanks again for your great knowledge. Really like the historical significance of tools. Amazing how many tool manufacturers there are.
Great knowledgeable video! Just found it interesting and watched and learned something new! Thumbs up! Laughing at, whoops there goes the needle! Good humor!
Love the old tools got a few some older machinist gave me years ago . Going to make me a shelf and display in the shop. Think these antique tool are awesome . Great video Mr. Pete Watching in Alabama!
Mr pete thank you for you time and sharing your knowledge. I think the indicator that was not reading correctly was set up at an incorrect angle. If the angle is a little steeper it should read correctly. i would like to know your thoughts?
Love the videos and the your monologue! Vary informative. I did see this exact indicator demonstrated on TH-cam with the tare down, just can't remember who did it. When I started watching yours, I thought it was the same video and had to check the date. Maybe someone here would know. PS- you do remind me of my past shop teachers, and now your my TH-cam shop teacher, so now off to do my homework...
Mr. Pete, The question you asked about combinations is, like all easily asked questions, quite complicated. I’m not a machinist, but I own a farm and a few math degrees (and I’m hooked on your channel). Combinations suggest that order does not matter, 1.000 + 0.001 is the same as 0.001 + 1.000... Not sure, but I suppose, practically these are equivalent when combining Jo Blocks. But since each block has two “faces”, there are four configurations to wring two blocks. Then if the orientation matters (rotate each block 180) then there are eight (or 16?) configurations to wring two blocks… ugh! OK, let’s assume, the “cow is a perfect sphere” then if there are 81 blocks in a set and one can use all of them to create “a width”… the possibilities are huge! The math reads- n! = 81! = ~6 x 10e120 (big). If you typically use two at a time to create an accurate width, no repetitions and the order of wringing matters (permutations) the selection reduces… the math is n!/(n-k)!. n = number of Jo Blocks, k = how many you use to create a “width”- 81!/(81-2)! = 6480. One more, if we go “simple” and say something like, “81 blocks available, pick any 2”, the “combinations” (no repetition, order doesn’t matter) reduce further. The math is n!/(k!(n-k)!) = 81!/(2!(81-2)!) = 3240. 😊
Thank you, that is an interesting observation. In a future video, I will show the doall Book. The book lists the 10,000 possibilities for stacking the blocks up to 1 inch. Using the 81 block in the Set. Also possibilities if you have more than one set. The book is 3/4 of an inch thick
Sir, i have to introduce a youtuber name Uri Tuchman, he just hand made a similar indicator, he is kind of a middleage craftman more than a 20 century machinist. With some crazy details on simple items and educated twist humour that can make you laugh, definitely worth looking. Don't miss that guy, he had skill, humour and some diy power
For the caliper test if you have a plug gage of the largest size you have check the jaws for racking by checking front middle and back of the jaws with the plug gage. This is the number one complaint i have with people if the adjustment set screws are messed with you lose calibration and for whatever reason people loosen them to make it glide extra smooth.
Hello MrPete Greetings from Great Britain. I have a set of the Johansson Ford blocks in Original Bakelite box. Keep up the great videos,and look after your self.
The ideal indicator housing is flexing upwards when you slide the larger stacks in, I bet that's where you're getting your 1 to 1.5 thousands error - flex over the length of the housing. Great video as always!
Great Video Mr. Pete !!!! Love The History !!! It Is Well Known That The Ideal Company Knowingly Hired Several Rabbits With Saddle Bags In The R&D Department Starting Around 1903 .
I have a Lufkin 199 lever type indicator. It looses .001 in .010 travel. As I am aware of its short comings, I can make it work. And considering most of my work is lucky to be in plus or minus 1/8" range, it is accurate enough. I really enjoyed this video.
I’ve come across this video 4 years after publication. I wonder how accurate this mechanical indicator is if used as a plus or minus gauge using the .005 as mid range and using it that way. In reality when an indicator is setup it is setup in such a way that you can measure high and low side of tolerance not just the measurement you’re trying to get to. That is if the indicator has the range, but certainly this could work if your tolerance is plus or minus .003? It would be nice if the video showed that as an example as well.
I always understood that the last word style indicators are a comparator and are not really to be used as a direct measuring device as since the stylus moves in an arc and not a straight line there always will be some error due to the arc motion being translated to a linear movement.
I have one of those Ideal indicators, came in a used tool chest I bought. It was a rusty mess, soaked it EvapoRust, cleaned up OK a little sticky though, may have to take it apart. Why do gauge block manufacturers always use wooden cases, you'd think they would know better? Good lesson mrpete!
I have the Starrett version of the Ideal mechanical indicator. I tested it against a milling machine DRO and it was accurate to better than .001" across the range. I bought it on ebay for centering in a four jaw. It was cheap and featured in the Henry Ford Trade School book. I wonder if your indicator accuracy would improve with a cleaning and oiling? Loved the video by the way, thanks.
Hats off to you and Mr. Johansson! Please check me off for completion of the homework assignment. As for the Extra Credit, I only skimmed the "Gauge Block" article. I do hope, some day, to get out of the corner and remove that stupid paint strainer from my head!
Starrett bias alert they can do no wrong LOL. Good morning mr.pete. This video should really be helpful. We love Fowler but just when I was going to write that to you here it comes another tool new to me this Ideal Tool Co. We think this tool was the first word as it appears very early in measurement. We LOVE Don B. We had to own two sets of inspection tools one going out every 6 months and the other staying in work then the others and so on and so forth that was life in the aerospace job shop life for me. Already read about the Jo Block creator. Gauge Blocks Read it. set 1 user blocks set 2 reference blocks. Thank you for the Jo Block lesson refresher. looking at that little needle on the Ideal Tool go boy did the user need to be very careful while in use. Thank you.
I'm wondering if you had some cosine error when checking the Ideal. It seemed to me that you could not get the stack of gauge blocks under the pivot (unlike when checking the Starrett). This put the sensing probe nearly level. I have always understood that these lever-style indicators (both pointer and dial) should have the probe angled down enough that the tip is below the level of the pivot housing - typically about (edited from 27.5) 22.5º (half of 45º). The Starrett was angled down about that much as I could see that you could pass the gauge blocks under the pivot housing on several occasions.
Other manufacturers made similar test indicators. I have a few of the Lufkin 199 (199A) indicators from the 1950's. I still use them sometimes. Here's a couple of patents you may want to look at: USP 2090495 and USP 228497 both to Witchger and assigned to the Lufkin Rule Co.
There was also a project in a book for the Unimat for a similar indicator. I made one, but it's good for relative measurements only (the cheapest dial indicator is more accurate).
"You must never store things in a wooden box" - Next scene - Fowler (wooden box) holding gauge blocks. :) So my questions are Why are so many tools sold, stored in wooden boxes? Is that the reason for lining with felt? Love your videos and you may "wander" as you will. Usually always learn something when you do!
I've got an Ideal indicator, strictly as a souvenir and never took it to mean thousanths, simply a relative indication such as for centering. Seems to me it could only be calibrated by reworking the probe tip to alter the effective length and so...nah.....No wait - make an overlay for the scale. Great piece of old tech though!
Thanks for sharing. Maybe someone might be able to answer my question. I find it odd, that after Henry Ford purchase / brought out C. E. Johansson, that he allowed C. E. Johansson, to have if you will top billing. I would have expected it to be Ford / C. E. Johansson. Was this maybe just part of the purchase arrangement C. E. Johansson, insisted upon, as a condition of the sale?
I can see the "Ideal" indicator moving slightly during the tests. It is very subtle and you have to look very closely, but it could be roughly 1/1000th of movement (one pixel or so on the screen). I think it is a lack of rigidity in the setup allowing for this. I bet with more rigidity it will indicate dead on. Great video, thanks!
mrpete222 i would be happy for you to borrow mine if you need one to do a follow up video with a genuine Starrett to see if they have the accuracy to match a last word!
What a coincidence, I have Single Ideal Test Indicator in the original box! Of course what single means is that the needle and graduations are on one side only. This indicator came with a 0.250 by 0.500 mounting bar and nothing else. Maybe this video will get me to test it and perhaps make some other ways of holding it.
I have an old indicator similar to the Ideal, but the form factor is different. It's a G.E.I. EHNER; rectangular body, 3/4"x~1-3/4", reads 0-15 thou, and the button extends from one corner of the rectangle. Patent was applied for, but may not have been granted (I can't find it). Mounting is unusual- two knurled nuts clamp on a plate to secure it to fixture/stand/work.
Those blocks *could* be cleaned up and used, as long as they were marked with the value negative to what was stamped on them, so the user can compensate. It would probably cost more than a new set to have it done, so one would have to be desperate to have something of known values for as little cash out as possible. Or looking for something to practice Lipton style lapping on.
The Ideal gage while inaccurate could still theoretically be used to check runout or vise alignment since the target measurement is "zero" as long as the needle has close to zero back lash. Obviously the modern jewelled indicator is the way to go I wonder how accurate a brand new ideal gage would be, since they no longer exist as "new" I suppose that will remain a mystery.
"Rewinding" the video a few times after you opened the case, you can see there is wear in the pivots as the indicator point/lever was actuated. Just send it back to the manufacturer for repairs. lol. Imagine locating a replacement spring and then replacing it? Delicate and crude but, it worked. Nice relic.
Great video lesson mrpete. Love the history sections. I have an indicator similar to the Ideal, I will have to dig it out and see what make it is. Thanks for sharing. regards from the UK
Nice video. The flex in the body is probably due to the mounting system. The screw (from the inside) that provides the mounting point may have some play. I loctited all of mine (6? 7? of them) to address that. The stock clamp can be tightened to remove play, as well. The screw is inside the body near the ball, and the screw at the bottom needs to come out to reach it (presuming it is the same design as mine). Somewhere, I have ads for these, as well as the patent (electronic), and an original instruction sheet. The accuracy isn't great, but when the unit is tight, it is better than shown here, and the error is pretty linear over the range. I prefer the Lufkin 199A, myself, but I only own one. Or a Starrett 64. Not so fond of the Starrett 564, though. The ball that allows rotation tends to be sticky (three examples, including one bought new about 20 years ago all have the same behaviour). The Ideal's seem to fall from the trees in my area. Also note that an Ideal is on the Wikipedia page for indicators.
Another informative video, THANKS! The set up did with the IDEAL might not be ideal. You might get better results if you think of the 5 on the indicator as your zero. In effect preload the mechanism. Then change blocks to add/subtract up to .005 That might (should) yield better results. I would never trust test or dial indicators for anything but "relative", and that means start in the middle. Long winded 2 cents worth.
I like Maudsley's name for the bench micrometer he created (one of the first micrometers to measure to tenth thousands of an inch) in his shop, "he called it the "Lord Chancellor", as it was used to settle any questions regarding accuracy of workmanship." The Lord Chancellor being a member of the English government and head of the judiciary.
What kind of effect would wear have on the indicator? I'm assuming it would slowly diminish/divide the recorded measurement as the contact surfaces wear away from one another.
Another great video Mr.P!
Thanks
It is Ideal, you know!
even watching on a phone the scale was easy to see. My dad suggested long ago that the ideal was never accurate enough to use as a height gauge.. but a relative run-out indicator to center a workpiece in a 4 jaw, it was 'ideal'... because absolute value is unimportant, but seeing relative runout in jaw centering is important. We had one on the lathe for decades.. I have no clue where it went.. many of dad's tools disappeared after his passing. This video was sort of a memory trip. THANKS!
Yes
Mr. Pete, a stained or lightly rusted block is not unusable, it is unreliable, for rough work it can tell you when you are close.When that ideal indicator was new it was probably accurate enough that it sold well. Back then was about the same as when you were in your prime you did not buy crap junk tools. You got the best you could afford, not the lowest cost you could find. I am 10 years younger than you, I am almost a shut-in, thank you for being on TH-cam. You keep me from wasting to uselessness. One of the problems as I aged is essential tremor, it is hard to eat peas with a spoon unless I smash them a little. My trade, I worked on computer systems I used to rebuild disc drive heads and platters. I could measure the thickness of the film left after alcohol evaperated, it mattered which kind we used because of the film.
Keep up your great work, you are not boring us.
just found you last evening but i learn a lot we are blessed to have people like you still teaching GOD bless
Thank you for joining me. You have over 1000 videos to watch in order to get caught up
I love the history. It is important for all of the current CNC guys to understand how we got here. Things used to be done on paper with pencil and slide rule, not CAD/CAM and CNC... I was sad the day my Grandfather died because he had lived from the age of the horse and buggy up til the Space Shuttle... To have been able to see the change that took place in just one man's lifetime... So thank you for sharing the history, it is very important!!!
I can't research Carl Edvard Johansson , the dog ate my internet
lol
Get your dog to vet, I hear the Internet can be toxic. :->)
The dog ate my algebra homework once,it looked like someone took a pair of pinking shears and went all around the edges! My proper type German algebra teacher still accepted it because all the work was readable. Although he wasn't pleased!
Thanks for dismantling the Ideal indicator. I've got one of the type over here in the UK, it very dirty and 'stuck', so soaking in a sealed jar of brake cleaner, think it might be a Starret. I now know what to expect when I strip it down. My plan, assuming I can get it to work, is to check the run out in my lathe on set up so really using it as a comparator, accuracy of measurement is not important. As always a fascinating project with history lesson thrown in for free.
Mr. Pete, you are a stern taskmaster - I did the mandatory Wikipedia reading and actually learned a bit (and refreshed quite a bit).
A really good idea, sending us momentarily back to the classroom!
lol
Another great video from mrpete. Thanks for providing us with so many interesting videos.
I did my required reading Mr Pete. I found both pages very intresting. So many good links to click on and read. I bet Wikipedia have noticed a large spike of people viewing those pages thanks to you. We had our Apprentice Training Master, Mr Ray Benson. (In Australia trade called "Fitter & Turner" ) You remind me of him.. Thanks.
Thanks 👍
I am amazed where you find all these old instruments let alone the time and work you invest into a video like that one, actually all your videos. Thanks, it was very informative. This must have been even before my time.
Thank you Bob. And yes it takes a lot of time. I probably average eight hours a day. Keep watching
When you place the Jo-Blocks under the Ideal, the whole unit looks to flex on the close-up video, as if the mount may be loose. The thicker the block, the greater the deflection seemed to be. I think the accuracy of the unit itself was okay. With a couple of Last Words, the Ideal is redundant anyway. Keep 'em coming Schulmeister!!
Tolerances and accuracy from 1900 are still usable today. But the metrology advances made between 1900 and today are almost miraculous! It's so cheap to measure accurately now, but machining to what we can measure is still expensive, or time consuming...
More than 3 digits to the right of the decimal is getting into the noise. I wonder if kids nowadays learn about significant digits anymore? I was trained at the end of the sliderule age, and significant digits were hammered into us at every turn. Even after calculators were affordable.
Yes we do..... weekly rent and student debt costs more then the highest significant digits provided in a wage slip.
Not quite where I was going, but accurate non-the-less! I like the wit! It's not just for students, tho. I've been out of university for almost 30 years now, and my stagnant wages don't spread as far as they used to....
I was aiming for this: th-cam.com/video/5UjwJ9PIUvE/w-d-xo.htmlm8s
@@stxrynnWhat? Everyone knows that the circumference of a circle with a diameter of 10 inches is 31.415926535897932384626433832795 inches, not 31 or 31.4 Who are you trying to fool?
But yeah you'd think NASA would need some hairy accuracy when plotting a course to Mars, but no. they use 3.14
@@ExtantFrodo2 I don't know about that, their 1960's engineering stress and deflection software we used(NASTRAN) usually went out 6 decimals.
@@bcbloc02 ...because those were not insignificant in the employed metric. Right? Plank's constant has significant digits out to 10^42. Atomic force microscopes detect deflection's in the picoNewton range. It doesn't change what I said about calculating a trajectory to Mars.
I really enjoyed your Video on Carl Johansson. Thank you. I felt that I was right back in shop class oh so many years ago. I can still see my shop teacher, and I sware that I heard his voice when you gave out the assignment. I did both assignments by the way. I am anxiously awaiting your follow-on using calipers.
Thanks Again
Gary 75-Year-Old Home-Shop-Machinist in North West Arkansas
A very practical way to check my old indicators- Thanks Mr. P.
Thanks
I have a test indicator that at first glance is a duplicate of the Ideal indicator. Mine is British made and has a cut-out window so that the indicating needle doesn't have to be split. It has a 0.015" range. One side is graduated in Imperial and the other side is metric. I've found it to read accurately across it's range.
I've had the indicator over 50 years, but rarely use it. Test indicators like the Starrett Last Word are more convenient to use.
These videos on accuracy among the most important you have ever done. Understanding the mechanics of accuracy is essential to consistent production.
Thanks
MR Pete.... I do enjoy your historical inserts, books, people etc... our machinist history is terrific. Thank you.
Thanks
My grandfather was a tool and die maker, and he had one of the those Ideal indicators, it was what I used as a kid. I remember when using it my father talking about the superior Last Word indicators so they became a little legendary in my mind. I never saw one until I started working in a job shop.
Our tool room grinder from Manila said that they didn't have any fancy test indicators during his machinist training. They used a piece of wire mounted on a pivot point to dial in the parts. This is the same principle as your antique test indicator without the graduations on the scale.
they probably had a weight on the side of the wire contacting the part to keep it engaged with the surface of the part being dialed in.
Interesting!
The concept and execution of this video is BRILLIANT! Thank you... now I feel confident checking my own indicators...
I have a few of the "Ideal" indicators... never used them... I assumed they were not as accurate as newer products... now I know for sure.
Thanks
Lyle, Here's my vote for more technology history! I find it fascinating too.
👍👍
Great class today Mr. Pete! Everything you said wrings true!
lol
We in switzerland appreciate the attention to real world engineering. Love you tubalcain!!!
Mr. Pete, I have a small collection of vintage mechanical test indicators. The Ideal is my favorite. I bought it on EBAY for $3.00. Coincidently, the original price was $3.00. It is so compact. I keep it set up in a QC toolholder on my 12in. Atlas lathe. I get very good results indicating my work. Thanks for all the great videos. Howie
ok Mr. Pete, we know that you never throw anything away. LOL. When I was working, we just bought new gage block sets that were Chinese made as it was far cheaper to buy new ones rather than pay for calibration. At the time, 6 years ago, you could buy them on sale for under $ 100.00 USD and they came with certification. Good to see that you moved the gage blocks to the indicator as you never move the indicator to the piecework, also do not moving directly towards the indicator stylus, but at a sideways movement, or from the hinge side. there is less chance of ' bouncing ' the set up. Lever indicators were never meant to check multiple heights, only used for repeatability due to cosine errors. You need to get your hands on an Interapid or an Alina .0001 indicator if you can. Then you can have some real fun with testing. have fun !
Thanks. I think I have an interapid
Thank you Mr Pete.
I have a partial set of miss matched gauge blocks and there are some with Johansen, Ford and Brown & Sharp. I also saw the calibration video that you mentioned.
Love historical connections! Thank you, Professor Peterson.
Thanks again for another great video. I wish to take exception with one of your statements. When you started to disassemble the ideal indicator you said,"this is a job for a jeweler." I think you might have met a watchmaker since jewelers make jewelry and for the most part do not repair watches or other small instruments. I hope that no one thinks this is too critical since I love watching these videos. Paul.
Love the history lessons added to the end. Try and learn something new every day
Thanks
If you look very carefully at the tip of the Ideal indicator as you put the blocks under it the body of it moves upwards very slightly. I'm watching on a 37inch monitor btw.
I will have to look at it on my 55 inch TV
He's got the last word lol
What a neat old indicator! I'll bet it could be brought back in to zero, but it has done it's work and we just need to appreciate it for the well-designed instrument it is. Thanks, Mr. Pete! :-)
Thanks for all your history, homework, and cleaning.
Thanks
I much enjoy the history segments, very interesting and informative. Thanks
Thanks
Love hearing the history behind the tools.
Thanks
Thank you, fun to see those old tools
Keep up the history lessons and the care tips, Lyle. Thanks.
Thanks
Great video Mr. Pete....you mentioned not storing tools in a wooden box. What is the reason that many tool makers have a Gerstner chest? I built boxes out of walnut for storing my grind vises and spin fixture. I put piece of camphor in the boxes and it seems to keep things from rusting. Keep up the great videos!
Very interesting Mr Pete. Thanks for taking apart the indicator. I was wondering how it worked.
The primary pivot shows considerable slop, indicating it is severely worn thus causing the error measured. A challenge or the old eyes would be to manufacture a new bushing to restore it to useful condition. I'm seventy four and have several magnifying devices for the times I stupidly try something like that (lol). Love your videos. From "downunder".
Thanks
You can take the teacher out of the classroom but you can't take the classroom out of the teacher, most interesting. Thanks I enjoy the historical sections very much.
Thanks
Very informative, I wish I had you as my shop teacher in high school. Thank you.
Thanks
I hope you're ok after the Harbor Freight visit. ...?? I go there occasionally. I like to look around. Once in a while I will buy something. I assume you exchanged the first caliper...
Thanks again for your great knowledge. Really like the historical significance of tools. Amazing how many tool manufacturers there are.
Interesting.
It is always fun to see the history of things. I liked seeing the Ford logo as well.
Thanks.
Thanks
Great knowledgeable video! Just found it interesting and watched and learned something new! Thumbs up! Laughing at, whoops there goes the needle! Good humor!
Love the old tools got a few some older machinist gave me years ago . Going to make me a shelf and display in the shop.
Think these antique tool are awesome . Great video Mr. Pete
Watching in Alabama!
Tough home work. History is important. How was this part made? Very important. As a old I surveyor followed in original footsteps.
Mr pete thank you for you time and sharing your knowledge. I think the indicator that was not reading correctly was set up at an incorrect angle. If the angle is a little steeper it should read correctly. i would like to know your thoughts?
Love the videos and the your monologue! Vary informative. I did see this exact indicator demonstrated on TH-cam with the tare down, just can't remember who did it. When I started watching yours, I thought it was the same video and had to check the date. Maybe someone here would know.
PS- you do remind me of my past shop teachers, and now your my TH-cam shop teacher, so now off to do my homework...
Mr. Pete, The question you asked about combinations is, like all easily asked questions, quite complicated. I’m not a machinist, but I own a farm and a few math degrees (and I’m hooked on your channel). Combinations suggest that order does not matter, 1.000 + 0.001 is the same as 0.001 + 1.000... Not sure, but I suppose, practically these are equivalent when combining Jo Blocks. But since each block has two “faces”, there are four configurations to wring two blocks. Then if the orientation matters (rotate each block 180) then there are eight (or 16?) configurations to wring two blocks… ugh! OK, let’s assume, the “cow is a perfect sphere” then if there are 81 blocks in a set and one can use all of them to create “a width”… the possibilities are huge! The math reads- n! = 81! = ~6 x 10e120 (big). If you typically use two at a time to create an accurate width, no repetitions and the order of wringing matters (permutations) the selection reduces… the math is n!/(n-k)!. n = number of Jo Blocks, k = how many you use to create a “width”- 81!/(81-2)! = 6480. One more, if we go “simple” and say something like, “81 blocks available, pick any 2”, the “combinations” (no repetition, order doesn’t matter) reduce further. The math is n!/(k!(n-k)!) = 81!/(2!(81-2)!) = 3240. 😊
Thank you, that is an interesting observation. In a future video, I will show the doall Book. The book lists the 10,000 possibilities for stacking the blocks up to 1 inch. Using the 81 block in the Set. Also possibilities if you have more than one set. The book is 3/4 of an inch thick
Sir, i have to introduce a youtuber name Uri Tuchman, he just hand made a similar indicator, he is kind of a middleage craftman more than a 20 century machinist. With some crazy details on simple items and educated twist humour that can make you laugh, definitely worth looking. Don't miss that guy, he had skill, humour and some diy power
Thank you, I just watch the one on the indicator. Then subscribed. I have a little trouble understanding him. He is quite an artist.
For the caliper test if you have a plug gage of the largest size you have check the jaws for racking by checking front middle and back of the jaws with the plug gage. This is the number one complaint i have with people if the adjustment set screws are messed with you lose calibration and for whatever reason people loosen them to make it glide extra smooth.
Lyle I have a Ideal indicator too, don't have the holder but I rigged one that works. and I checked my Ideal against a Last word. Works great.
Hello MrPete Greetings from Great Britain. I have a set of the Johansson Ford blocks in Original Bakelite box. Keep up the great videos,and look after your self.
👍👍Thank you
Good job Mr. Pete! I love history!!!
The ideal indicator housing is flexing upwards when you slide the larger stacks in, I bet that's where you're getting your 1 to 1.5 thousands error - flex over the length of the housing. Great video as always!
Yes
Great Video Mr. Pete !!!! Love The History !!! It Is Well Known That The Ideal Company Knowingly Hired Several Rabbits With Saddle Bags In The R&D Department Starting Around 1903 .
lol
Lyle, very nice !! Thanks for a great watch, Cliff
Thanks
That photo of you and Tom is gold. I might just print it out and put it on the wall over my lathe.
Thanks
Possibly the added pressure of the thicker blocks caused the mount to flex, causing the readings to be off?
I have a Lufkin 199 lever type indicator. It looses .001 in .010 travel. As I am aware of its short comings, I can make it work. And considering most of my work is lucky to be in plus or minus 1/8" range, it is accurate enough. I really enjoyed this video.
I saw a starrett last word branded version of the lever type, still in its case, no idea how old it was or how accurate, but it did still work.
I’ve come across this video 4 years after publication. I wonder how accurate this mechanical indicator is if used as a plus or minus gauge using the .005 as mid range and using it that way. In reality when an indicator is setup it is setup in such a way that you can measure high and low side of tolerance not just the measurement you’re trying to get to. That is if the indicator has the range, but certainly this could work if your tolerance is plus or minus .003? It would be nice if the video showed that as an example as well.
I always understood that the last word style indicators are a comparator and are not really to be used as a direct measuring device as since the stylus moves in an arc and not a straight line there always will be some error due to the arc motion being translated to a linear movement.
Mr Pete, I think that if you put the starret on the body of the ideal you will find out that it was moving . Might be an interesting check.
I have one of those Ideal indicators, came in a used tool chest I bought. It was a rusty mess, soaked it EvapoRust, cleaned up OK a little sticky though, may have to take it apart. Why do gauge block manufacturers always use wooden cases, you'd think they would know better? Good lesson mrpete!
I have the Starrett version of the Ideal mechanical indicator. I tested it against a milling machine DRO and it was accurate to better than .001" across the range. I bought it on ebay for centering in a four jaw. It was cheap and featured in the Henry Ford Trade School book. I wonder if your indicator accuracy would improve with a cleaning and oiling? Loved the video by the way, thanks.
Love the history. I have the ford blocks in a bake-alight case.
Always a pleasure Lyle! Cheers my Friend! Zip~
Thanks
Hats off to you and Mr. Johansson! Please check me off for completion of the homework assignment. As for the Extra Credit, I only skimmed the "Gauge Block" article. I do hope, some day, to get out of the corner and remove that stupid paint strainer from my head!
lol
love the little history segment!
Starrett bias alert they can do no wrong LOL. Good morning mr.pete. This video should really be helpful. We love Fowler but just when I was going to write that to you here it comes another tool new to me this Ideal Tool Co. We think this tool was the first word as it appears very early in measurement. We LOVE Don B. We had to own two sets of inspection tools one going out every 6 months and the other staying in work then the others and so on and so forth that was life in the aerospace job shop life for me. Already read about the Jo Block creator. Gauge Blocks Read it. set 1 user blocks set 2 reference blocks. Thank you for the Jo Block lesson refresher. looking at that little needle on the Ideal Tool go boy did the user need to be very careful while in use. Thank you.
First word. That's funny
I'm wondering if you had some cosine error when checking the Ideal. It seemed to me that you could not get the stack of gauge blocks under the pivot (unlike when checking the Starrett). This put the sensing probe nearly level. I have always understood that these lever-style indicators (both pointer and dial) should have the probe angled down enough that the tip is below the level of the pivot housing - typically about (edited from 27.5) 22.5º (half of 45º). The Starrett was angled down about that much as I could see that you could pass the gauge blocks under the pivot housing on several occasions.
Other manufacturers made similar test indicators. I have a few of the Lufkin 199 (199A) indicators from the 1950's. I still use them sometimes. Here's a couple of patents you may want to look at: USP 2090495 and USP 228497 both to Witchger and assigned to the Lufkin Rule Co.
I saw an old article in Popular Science that showed how to make an Ideal type from scratch
Neat
There was also a project in a book for the Unimat for a similar indicator. I made one, but it's good for relative measurements only (the cheapest dial indicator is more accurate).
"You must never store things in a wooden box" - Next scene - Fowler (wooden box) holding gauge blocks. :) So my questions are
Why are so many tools sold, stored in wooden boxes?
Is that the reason for lining with felt?
Love your videos and you may "wander" as you will. Usually always learn something when you do!
I knew it!!!!
I knew it!!!!
I've got an Ideal indicator, strictly as a souvenir and never took it to mean thousanths, simply a relative indication such as for centering. Seems to me it could only be calibrated by reworking the probe tip to alter the effective length and so...nah.....No wait - make an overlay for the scale. Great piece of old tech though!
Would be interesting to see how the DRO on your mill compares to the indicators.
Thanks for sharing. Maybe someone might be able to answer my question. I find it odd, that after Henry Ford purchase / brought out C. E. Johansson, that he allowed C. E. Johansson, to have if you will top billing. I would have expected it to be Ford / C. E. Johansson.
Was this maybe just part of the purchase arrangement C. E. Johansson, insisted upon, as a condition of the sale?
I carried out the assignment Sir!
Mr. Pete,
Could you talk about the various grades of gage blocks. What grade will work for the home shop?
Also, some wood contains acid, which is not friendly to measuring equipment also.
the indicator body was pushed up more with each increase from non linear spring pressure against the weight of the overhanging surface gauge.
I can see the "Ideal" indicator moving slightly during the tests. It is very subtle and you have to look very closely, but it could be roughly 1/1000th of movement (one pixel or so on the screen). I think it is a lack of rigidity in the setup allowing for this. I bet with more rigidity it will indicate dead on. Great video, thanks!
Yes thanks
Starrett made a version of this test indicator - No. 564, it has a swivel tip that you can rotate to indicate in any direction
I will look that up
mrpete222 i would be happy for you to borrow mine if you need one to do a follow up video with a genuine Starrett to see if they have the accuracy to match a last word!
G’day Mr Pete, the Ideal was not so Ideal but I’d still like to have one
Cheers
Peter
What a coincidence, I have Single Ideal Test Indicator in the original box! Of course what single means is that the needle and graduations are on one side only. This indicator came with a 0.250 by 0.500 mounting bar and nothing else. Maybe this video will get me to test it and perhaps make some other ways of holding it.
VERY INTERESTING !!! I LOVED IT !!!! JOE
I have an old indicator similar to the Ideal, but the form factor is different. It's a G.E.I. EHNER; rectangular body, 3/4"x~1-3/4", reads 0-15 thou, and the button extends from one corner of the rectangle. Patent was applied for, but may not have been granted (I can't find it). Mounting is unusual- two knurled nuts clamp on a plate to secure it to fixture/stand/work.
I have never seen one
@@mrpete222 Hi Lyle- I'd send you a photo, but can't find any contact info for you.
12:43 the ideal is moving under the .010 load, part of the lost distance there.
Those blocks *could* be cleaned up and used, as long as they were marked with the value negative to what was stamped on them, so the user can compensate.
It would probably cost more than a new set to have it done, so one would have to be desperate to have something of known values for as little cash out as possible. Or looking for something to practice Lipton style lapping on.
Fancy that, guess I should head to the mall more often. Never know who else you'll see with a visor on.
The Ideal gage while inaccurate could still theoretically be used to check runout or vise alignment since the target measurement is "zero" as long as the needle has close to zero back lash. Obviously the modern jewelled indicator is the way to go I wonder how accurate a brand new ideal gage would be, since they no longer exist as "new" I suppose that will remain a mystery.
Yes
"Rewinding" the video a few times after you opened the case, you can see there is wear in the pivots as the indicator point/lever was actuated. Just send it back to the manufacturer for repairs. lol. Imagine locating a replacement spring and then replacing it? Delicate and crude but, it worked. Nice relic.
Great video lesson mrpete. Love the history sections. I have an indicator similar to the Ideal, I will have to dig it out and see what make it is. Thanks for sharing. regards from the UK
Yes
Nice video. The flex in the body is probably due to the mounting system. The screw (from the inside) that provides the mounting point may have some play. I loctited all of mine (6? 7? of them) to address that. The stock clamp can be tightened to remove play, as well. The screw is inside the body near the ball, and the screw at the bottom needs to come out to reach it (presuming it is the same design as mine). Somewhere, I have ads for these, as well as the patent (electronic), and an original instruction sheet. The accuracy isn't great, but when the unit is tight, it is better than shown here, and the error is pretty linear over the range. I prefer the Lufkin 199A, myself, but I only own one. Or a Starrett 64. Not so fond of the Starrett 564, though. The ball that allows rotation tends to be sticky (three examples, including one bought new about 20 years ago all have the same behaviour). The Ideal's seem to fall from the trees in my area. Also note that an Ideal is on the Wikipedia page for indicators.
Another informative video, THANKS! The set up did with the IDEAL might not be ideal. You might get better results if you think of the 5 on the indicator as your zero. In effect preload the mechanism. Then change blocks to add/subtract up to .005 That might (should) yield better results. I would never trust test or dial indicators for anything but "relative", and that means start in the middle. Long winded 2 cents worth.
I like Maudsley's name for the bench micrometer he created (one of the first micrometers to measure to tenth thousands of an inch) in his shop, "he called it the "Lord Chancellor", as it was used to settle any questions regarding accuracy of workmanship." The Lord Chancellor being a member of the English government and head of the judiciary.
I never heard that before, I love it. Most appropriate
What kind of effect would wear have on the indicator?
I'm assuming it would slowly diminish/divide the recorded measurement as the contact surfaces wear away from one another.
I did the required reading. Good video!