Some of you who read MacDonald may realize we left out any discussion of MacDonald's seven criteria for identifying mimesis. The reason is because that will be discussed in an upcoming stream. Link: th-cam.com/video/bvr4-NcuGiA/w-d-xo.html
A physical system may have its values undefined prior to wave function collapse, but it is still a physical system. Either a particle or wave. Michael Jones is disgusting and primitive liar.
I suspected as much when Paul had to outwit a cyclops after his shipwreck on the way to Rome. I just thought he was slaying a Nephilim then I read the Oddessy.
Did you know that the story of the titanic is also loosely based on the Odyssey? I mean, if you ignore the innumerable differences. The shipwrecks are both shipwrecks. The boats both float on water. Both ships have crews. Its crazy similar. People DIE! PEOPLE DROWN! Heck, the stories are practically identical now.
One major theme of Homeric literature is hubris, which often leads to a person's downfall. The "unsinkable ship" sank on her maiden voyage because of hubris.
That’s not what Dr. MacDonald says at all. He’s saying that the stories are written using memetic techniques, using Homer and other material. It’s like if you write a fictional story, do you do it without any reference to anything else? No you write stories based on other stories that you’ve read.
I was thinking that as well. How is this any different from a conspiracy theorist looking at different hand symbols in photos of elites and running to conclusions?
@@thimychan202how about we mention that it’s an unfalsifiable hypothesis. MacDonald has basically set it up that if Mark does the exact opposite of what happens in the Homeric Epics, it’s mimesis. Even being in a boat in Mark is mimesis of being on an island from Homer’s works.
I've noticed that scholars who seek to discredit the Bible as historical often display what looks like shocking incompetency in literary analysis. They are so driven by their agenda that they end up making it appear as though they don't understand features of basic literary forms such as epic, legend, myth, etc.
Belief warps one's perceptions. Many atheists have strong beliefs but few realise that they believe so are incapable of identifying confirmation bias and other problems of belief that they suffer from.
This is the same thing that happens with Muslim apologists. Their defenses of the Qur'an have to sink deeper and deeper into nonsense and the fantastical
"Scholars" be like: "The disciples were illiterate and could not have written the Gospels." Also "scholars": "The disciples were geniuses for drawing from pagan myths so stealthy that only us modern scholars were smart enough to pick this up." The year is 3025. Scholars find an ancient book written around 2025 in India. In this book Jesus is called Bhagwan. Scholars will be like: "YOU SEE!!! Jesus was based on the Hindu gods."
They were bumbling idiots who made so, so many irreconcilable contradictions, but they were also literary geniuses who did their homework extensively to make it seem convincing. Trust me, guys. I'm a scholar, so what I'm saying makes sense...
Sorry, I just need to grab my copy of the Odyssey to check where Peter ties himself to the mast of the Argo to listen to the sirens while trying to pass through the Sicilian straits. I'm quite sure it's not there.
As someone who studies the classics both in and out of college, this claim is utterly embarrassing to make. Even before I was Christian, if you came up to me and said the Jesus figure was modeled off of Homer’s characters, I would have laughed in your face.
*classicist high five* I feel like most classical scholars would find biblical scholars in general laughable in their poor understanding of the period, literary movements, etc
True Story: I once walked to the store with some family and as we came around the road corner, a group of guys came walking towards us and one of them had on the exact same t-shirt I had on, the same sneakers and the same pants. The only difference was that he had on a hat and shades. So I guess because we shared similarities, I must be him and he must be me even though I've never met him in my life. Who copied from who?
@@PetraKann Ridiculous? This is exactly what myth vision does! He finds similarities and then concludes that either one thing must be the other or the other copied from the another. Which is the real ridiculous thing! If you apply that thinking to my real life story then you have to conclude one of us copied from each because we shared similarities which would be impossible since neither of us has ever met ever in our lives.
According to atheists, it is just a random chance. But if that explanation helps the Christian case, they will use the "You SEE, the Bible copied the pagan myths!" And they claim that apologists are lying grifters. They are projecting.
It was Agamemnon who asked Jupiter /Zeus to stay the sun for one day. “Zeus, most glorious, most great, the one of the dark clouds, that dwellest in the heaven, grant that the sun set not, neither darkness come upon us, until I have cast down in headlong ruin the hall of Priam … burned with consuming fire”. (Illiad II:412-415). Consuming fire, in biblespeak = the Sun.
This is something I never heard of and seems ridiculous. None of the Gospels and the book of Acts seem to even remotely resemble any Greek myth as far as I am aware of. The only similarity I see is Paul being shipwrecked, nothing else.
Yeah I’m sure early Christians from the apostles onward just did everything in their power to get these writings circulated and spread under threat of death because it was fun to read right Early Christians prized literacy and studying scripture so much so that NT Wright even states if you were to walk into a meeting or congregation you’d assume it was a philosophical school or institution, with prayer and worship being central to it. Many were illiterate so church teachers and leaders taught them how to read. They were at the forefront of codices that contained more information and were easier to use for locating different passages. One of the more notable aspects of early Christianity was the very strong desire for EVERYONE to read these writings. By any means possible. They did everything to get this message spread, because it actually happened and is vital for the future of whoever reads it.
@@desideriusfelicia6811 NT Wright “The New Testament in its world” is where I read about that primarily. It’s a really good read if you’re into early Christianity in general. Also “ancient Christian worship” by andrew mcgowan is a good read, goes in depth on their practices and liturgies including how they’d read
My favorite ridiculous statement here is MacDonald saying, "Odysseus was a carpenter." It's almost laughably bad how far of a reach it has to be. Odysseus was a king, and his father was a king, and for generations his family is comprised of kings. Odysseus' wit and political know-how were so famed that Tyndareus called him to settle the political messiness of marrying off Helen. Odysseus' life prior to the Trojan War we see only indications of him as a politician, perhaps someone qualified to be a lawyer, but no indication he was a laborer of any kind. The only act Odysseus doing anything even related to carpentry is his making his own bed, and in the context of that scene in the Odyssey it's meant to be a show of his cleverness since it allows Penelope to give a riddle that only Odysseus would know the answer to. Odysseus making his own bed doesn't make him a carpenter any more than you making a meal for your family makes you a chef. Unless MacDonald is trying to claim, what, Odysseus made the Trojan Horse himself? You can't even say, "Well, Odysseus MIGHT have been in charge of making the Trojan Horse - it was his idea, after all." Nope, he commissioned the construction of the horse itself to Epeius. The only manual labor we do know that Odysseus may have performed as a king is farming, since he did own a plow, used as part of a scheme to feign madness - but it may have simply been a plow in his possession used by a servant, rather than one he would personally use.
@@karkha2 Indeed, he was, but that was more of a skill he had than his occupation(while in case of Jesus this is how He earned a living until He started His ministry).
"This WW2 documentary used sound effects designed by Skywalker Sound and cinematography borrowed from Star Wars... could World War 2 be a fictitious event? 😱"
Great video as always IP. I never understand why people keep insisting Jesus is a retread of old myths despite the fact that it's been debunked time and time again.
It was Agamemnon who asked Jupiter /Zeus to stay the sun.. “Zeus, most glorious, most great, the one of the dark clouds, that dwellest in the heaven, grant that the sun set not, neither darkness come upon us, until I have cast down in headlong ruin the hall of Priam … burned with consuming fire”. (Illiad II:412-415).
The skeptics ignore history. The people that wrote down the gospel and spread it DIED for this! After being tortured, they continued. Just read the church fathers and the lives of the early saints.
I tuink this view only holds up to people who neither read Homer or the bible. This makes me question if he's really a scholar and from what university. Because whatever uni it was he needs a refund
Odysseus went through may trials. When someone is at a trial, when standing before the judge, a defendant will make a really poor case. Thus, Dennis McDonald is not actually trying to make an argument, he's just trying to imitate Homer's epics.
Whoever thinks the gospels are reworked stories from Homer has never read either. I do not read Hector slaying dudes a think this guy reminds me of Jesus giving the sermon on the mount
This was excellent! Please do many more videos on this. So many people are falling for these lies. I look forward to Inspiring Philosophy refuting Mythvision’s series on this subject.
I'm looking at the comparison between the cyclops and the healing of the demonic man. How does Odysseus blinding a monstrous cyclops translate into Jesus transferring demons from a man to a herd of pigs? The two stories are nowhere similar! The Pixar theory makes more sense than this!
IP keep your work up, I saw Derek’s response video to you(I didn’t find it convincing) and I just want to say that of my study of the Homer claims they seem to be extremely forced, just know IP that the scholarly consensus is on your side and a majority of skeptical and Christian scholars disagree with this homer conclusion, the claims of MacDonald while respected are oftentimes unconvincing to most scholars believers and unbelievers alike
1:52 "They both suffer many things at the hands of murderous usurpers" also describes Hamlet. Enduring stories have a lot of overlapping themes because those themes resonate with us, and they resonate with us because they reflect the human condition (it's us, we're the murderous usurpers)
It is always arrogant when someone comes along with a brand new understanding of the gospels and the church that everyone has mysteriously "missed". From progressive christianity, to new age, to Nicea conspiracies to Sabellianism. They all do that.
What’s funny is Derek has had Bart on Channel several times and even Bart disagrees with Macdonald. "There is not a stitch of evidence to suggest that mystery cults played any role whatever in the views of the Pharisees or, for that matter, in the views of any Jewish group of the first century: the Sadducees, the Essenes (who produced the Dead Sea Scrolls), the revolutionaries who wanted to overthrow the Romans, the apocalyptic prophets like John the Baptist (and their followers), or the common people. So not only do we not know whether mystery cults were influenced by “the” (alleged) ancient view of the world-whatever that might be-there is not a shred of evidence to suggest that these cults played the least role in the development of early views of Jesus. Rather, we have plenty of reasons, based on our early Jewish sources, that just the opposite was the case." Bart Ehrman
You can mount a sizable critique of Christian doctrine if a person just sites mainstream scholarship. Why someone would resort to this as an appeal to scholarship is beyond me.
Thank you for this, hadn't even about heard this one yet. I've lost count of all the different viral conspiracy claims about Jesus and the Bible... I feel like a broken record in the comment fields, writing the same arguments and sharing the same refuting links over and over.
Someone writing a History if Trump makes an offhand parallel between Elon Musk and Tony Stark “See? Musk wasn’t a real person, just a retelling of the Iron Man story by the poet Marvel” - McDonald, probably
Let’s get Wesley Huff bring his expertise to the conversation. Everyone enjoyed his recent conversation with Joe Rogan. I’m sure he could give you details regarding Homer and the Bible
If you're familiar with the language that academics use when they are trying to say that something is bogus, you can see it exuding from all the quotations where they're talking about McDonald's idea. In fact, they go far beyond what academics usually say when they talk about "distortion." That should show how far out this theory actually is. Kudos to IP for even giving it the time of day, let alone giving a full response. It will be really helpful for the people who aren't familiar with Homer or the NT.
These theories are now so old, it just took a more pagan culture, like ours , to think they found something new. This is certainly not the case. Paul and cyclops? Where on earth did you get that? These ideas have been put to rest many times by previous generations of thinkers. ,
The Bible is really about baseball. The homer is so important to the game, and apparently people have been playing baseball starting in the big inning, all the way up until the fall of the Roman umpire.
If everything in the Bible were plain and easy to comprehend - there would no need for apologetics. Which means we would lack a deeper understanding of scripture. Maybe God planned it out that there would be some similarities so that we could dive into history and scripture even more?
My favorite adaptation of Homer is Captain Cook's Voyages. Tahitian and Hawaiian women clearly represent Circe and the sirens. Like any good mythological story, the hero is declared to be a god at the end.
I have a question about a bible problem I found and it turns out i'm not the first, but I can't find a good solution. In Ezra 4:5, 6 and 7 we read about a different Persian king each verse: Darius, Xerxes and Artaxerxes. They, according to the text, would be a problem during the building of the second temple. But the building of the temple would've been completed during the reign of Darius, and the other two came after him. So my question is: how is this possible? (Also see Ezra 6:14!) Greetings from the Netherlands
I just watched the Unpacked video on the second temple (as I haven't read the books in a while). Does it clearly say it is FULLY finished under Darius? Did they continue building after it was technically finished? Could it be referring to the city being rebuilt but not being very clear about it? Note that an elleged error here is not about "mythical" history. This is within "normal" history and the temple WAS rebuilt. The question is how and in what way did the messy historical situation get documented.
People forget that before Christ came into the world, they already knew he would be coming due to Adam and Noah transmitting the oral promise made by GOD.. the ancients knew a saviour would come, just not when he would appear.. the devil already had a plan set forth to deceive the people into believing a promised seed had already come..
One that I take issue with in the video is the discussion of the phenomenon that IP described. We still do that adapting works to new contexts sometime with the same name, but other times it’s as blatant as the movie Beastly, which was a modern take on beauty and the beast, samurai films being remade as westerns, Shawshank Redemption was Count of Monte Cristo, Sons of Anarchy was biker Hamlet, West Side Story was Romeo and Juliet. Many of them will point that out by having the characters out right say it or the name, oh and how could I forget we’re talking about Homer, “Oh Brother Where Art Though?” They all one to one but the inspiration is referenced or stated in most if not all of these.
Don't you love it when skeptics find things no one in the past 2 (or more in the case of the OT) thousand years ever saw? "Did you know homosexuality wasn't actually prohibited?!"
If you are interested in actual early Christian stuff, there are a fair amount of Christians quoting bits of pagan poetry that were believed to have been legit prophecy about Christ, like the prophecy of pagan Balaam, or like the quotations from Epimenides in St. Paul. Courtney J.P. Friesen has a really fun book called Acting Gods, Playing Heroes, and the Interaction between Judaism, Christianity, and Greek Drama in the Early Common Era. If you read Greek, you can have a lot of fun reading the referenced bits of Euripides with early Christian eyes, and seeing how Euripides really does seem to prophesy Christ, as well as voicing pagan dissatisfaction with pagan gods and the whole pre-Christian system, in a way inspired (in a lesser way than Scripture) by the Holy Spirit. The book also explains a lot of allusions in the Fathers, in martyr stories (including by actions), in early Christian tomb paintings and early church decorations, and so on.
And for anyone to think people back then didn't quote the pop-culture of their day makes them arrogant, hubristic, some better word I'm not thinking of...
It sounds convincing but there were not enough copies of Homer's writings around for common use, when the NT was being developed. I rate this theory as being on equal footing with the Passion NT.
Hi there InspiringPhilosophy I have a question what do you think of Truthunedited's latest video criticizing the doctrine of the Trinity and his criticism of Greek Philosophy in early Christianity and him saying Jesus (Yahusha) isn't co eternal alongside the Father Yahuah Elohim? Do you think Truthunedited is right about some of his criticisms but he severely mistaken on his other takes especially in his mindset about some of his positions and how he feels like people attack him constantly? I think he has made a critical mistake denying Jesus/Yahusha's divinity because the Bible makes it clear he is eternal and a creator. Though he says the Father is greater then him that is because he is obedient and serves him eternally while sitting by him. He was there before creation and participated with the Father in making mankind in their image and he is still Alpha and Omega the First and the Last yet Truthunedited disregards this truth saying Yahusha is not God which is very bad of him to do.
@InspiringPhilosophy Oh I thought you were just misspelling his name on purpose, didn't know it was two completely different people 😅 McDonnell, McDonald
Before this video I had not the lightest suspicion about the Gospel of Marl drawing inspiration from Homer. But you made an amazing job opening my mind to the possibility. Even tho MacDonald had an obvious agenda overestimating the influence of Homer in the gospel, some of the points he draws are not absolutely bullocks. What MacDonald overlooks is exemplified in 5:50; like Apollinarious, Mark mimics mainly stories from the Old Testament. Anyways, the main reason I wrote this comment was that I found extremely disingenuous the way you dismiss Transvaluation, because, Transvaluation in not about replacing a problematic passage with whatever, but with an opposite. So the cyclops being called Nobody and the Demonic being called Legion is not as far fetched as you make it look. In the same vein when you say Jesus send the man to tell the story to his close ones while Odysseus told the cyclops to go to everyone is an opposition you are providing yourself an example of Transvaluation. Of course, there is a very fine line between finding evidence of Mimetics and making it up. Sometimes stories, even real ones, are very predictable and end up walking pararel paths (like the example you mention about the boat). So, most of the time, this kind of tests are but circunstancial. If we were to find a direct Homer quotation the story would be other; but Mark was an exceptional writer, so non of that. In the end I'm content with the possibility.
In his livestream he basically demonstrates how his reasoning leads to ridiculous things like saying the American Civil War was inspired by the Iliad, basically when you look at his methodology it's pretty ridiculous. Especially with the early attestations of the gospels as history by the Church leads me to believe there isn't any possibility at all.
@@andrewnazario2253 I think you are overlooking that the Gospel of Mark was written in greek, during the time period where Homer was the most influyent it had ever been and by a person with a fine education. Looking at extreme counterexamples to ridicule something is not a new invention. Most of MacDonald blabber was evidently misguided, if I´m allowed to speculate he found a couple of examples of Mimic in the Gospel and forcefuly extrapolated it to the rest of the case. If the Mimic is genuine or coincidence is unknown, but given Mark's context, there is room for incertainty.
@@aramisscabott6747 honestly, Mike in the video argues it way better then I ever could, so if you still have a problem with it, I probably wouldn't be able to address it well enough 😅 Personally I don't think there's enough of a connection to warrant interpretation. Nevertheless, God bless!
The best thing you can do is support us. Plus, You’ll get early access to all the videos, which is helpful because sometime our supporters check mistakes we can fix before the final public version. inspiringphilosophy.org/give/
Big gamble Mr. McDonald is taking talking against the bible. If he is right then great all is good, if he is wrong then he is blaspheming against the word of God and would go straight to hell. There are literally a million other topics he could work with and gain just as much acknowledgment from.
Some of you who read MacDonald may realize we left out any discussion of MacDonald's seven criteria for identifying mimesis. The reason is because that will be discussed in an upcoming stream. Link: th-cam.com/video/bvr4-NcuGiA/w-d-xo.html
You did a fantastic job with this. Bravo! 👏
WE? "The only people entitled to use the imperiel we are kings, editors and people with tapeworms." - Mark Twain.
@@chrisazure1624 🪱😭
@@chrisazure1624 Oh gosh! 🪱😭
A physical system may have its values undefined prior to wave function collapse, but it is still a physical system. Either a particle or wave.
Michael Jones is disgusting and primitive liar.
I suspected as much when Paul had to outwit a cyclops after his shipwreck on the way to Rome. I just thought he was slaying a Nephilim then I read the Oddessy.
😂
no kraken....boringg
The sirens could totally fit in.
Nephilim = clouds. See tale of Zeus and Nephele.
😂😂😂😂
The Gospels could not have plagiarized Homer because The Simpsons would not be created until the 1980's. D'doy.
IKR 🤷🏻♂️
True dat 😂😂😂😂😂
D'oh!
Did you know that the story of the titanic is also loosely based on the Odyssey? I mean, if you ignore the innumerable differences. The shipwrecks are both shipwrecks. The boats both float on water. Both ships have crews. Its crazy similar. People DIE! PEOPLE DROWN! Heck, the stories are practically identical now.
I knew it!
LMAO
One major theme of Homeric literature is hubris, which often leads to a person's downfall.
The "unsinkable ship" sank on her maiden voyage because of hubris.
IKR 😂
Derek Lambert punching the air rn
He has been for a great many years
He’s probably preparing an overly long stream where he just calls you guys disingenuous and ignorant.
@@deadalivemaniac you forgot sheep
@@deadalivemaniacyou forgot the part where he says he only cares about the truth and everyone is a liar
Homer Simpson punching air right now
My favorite part was when Mark said, “It’s Odysseusing time!” and Odysseused all over the place.
I laughed much harder at this than I should have. 10/10
So what I am hearing is that Terminator 2 and Harry Potter are the same movies according to McDonald?
Anybody who thinks Jesus was modeled after Odysseus has cannot possibly comprehend both the Gospels and the Odyssey.
That’s not what Dr. MacDonald says at all. He’s saying that the stories are written using memetic techniques, using Homer and other material. It’s like if you write a fictional story, do you do it without any reference to anything else? No you write stories based on other stories that you’ve read.
@@JayWest1438:00
This type of parallelomania is the same method conspiracy theorists use to justify claims
I was thinking that as well. How is this any different from a conspiracy theorist looking at different hand symbols in photos of elites and running to conclusions?
Yup, luke those who find paganism/satanism in every crumb of humanity.
@@InspiringPhilosophy thus why it’s on the fringe side of scholarship
This is a hand-waving statement. You have not looked or searched deeply enough to refute their claims.
@@thimychan202how about we mention that it’s an unfalsifiable hypothesis. MacDonald has basically set it up that if Mark does the exact opposite of what happens in the Homeric Epics, it’s mimesis. Even being in a boat in Mark is mimesis of being on an island from Homer’s works.
I've noticed that scholars who seek to discredit the Bible as historical often display what looks like shocking incompetency in literary analysis. They are so driven by their agenda that they end up making it appear as though they don't understand features of basic literary forms such as epic, legend, myth, etc.
Belief warps one's perceptions. Many atheists have strong beliefs but few realise that they believe so are incapable of identifying confirmation bias and other problems of belief that they suffer from.
It all must’ve started with granny putting the ‘scholar’ on her lap and repeating the same thing: remember, I told you!
This is the same thing that happens with Muslim apologists. Their defenses of the Qur'an have to sink deeper and deeper into nonsense and the fantastical
"Scholars" be like: "The disciples were illiterate and could not have written the Gospels."
Also "scholars": "The disciples were geniuses for drawing from pagan myths so stealthy that only us modern scholars were smart enough to pick this up."
The year is 3025. Scholars find an ancient book written around 2025 in India. In this book Jesus is called Bhagwan. Scholars will be like: "YOU SEE!!! Jesus was based on the Hindu gods."
Sigh.
They were bumbling idiots who made so, so many irreconcilable contradictions, but they were also literary geniuses who did their homework extensively to make it seem convincing. Trust me, guys. I'm a scholar, so what I'm saying makes sense...
Sadly, we don't have to wait 1000 years for that. Krishna sounds vaguely like Christ, had a mother, said things, and died at the foot of a tree.
@@carissstewart3211I've said things. I'm Christ now
Sorry, I just need to grab my copy of the Odyssey to check where Peter ties himself to the mast of the Argo to listen to the sirens while trying to pass through the Sicilian straits. I'm quite sure it's not there.
😂
Love the sarcasm!!
I love Peter and the Astronauts!!
Fav movie!
Homer uses nouns and verbs...so do the gospels. I dont think this can be a coincidence.
Proof that even scholars can be massively absurd trolls.
We already had that proof. It was called Kipp Davis 😂
Apologise
@@BenWiggins-v2hits sad that scholars involve themselfs in atheist polemics
Sensational scholars = liars
Sometimes a scholar is just someone who was dumb enough to spend most of thier life in school.
As someone who studies the classics both in and out of college, this claim is utterly embarrassing to make. Even before I was Christian, if you came up to me and said the Jesus figure was modeled off of Homer’s characters, I would have laughed in your face.
Amen! I guess everyone's been missing this "connection" for 2000 years until NOW
Did you have to pay any social/ financial/ physical price for reading and following Homer religiously?
@@I9s7lam5is-S3tu1pid???
*classicist high five* I feel like most classical scholars would find biblical scholars in general laughable in their poor understanding of the period, literary movements, etc
"Both stories have storms. CHECKMATE!
There's the PROOF!"
Bam⚡️
Powerful Stuff
Sometimes a shipwreck is just a shipwreck.
And a boat=an island
You SEEE!!! 😂
True Story: I once walked to the store with some family and as we came around the road corner, a group of guys came walking towards us and one of them had on the exact same t-shirt I had on, the same sneakers and the same pants. The only difference was that he had on a hat and shades. So I guess because we shared similarities, I must be him and he must be me even though I've never met him in my life. Who copied from who?
Apologise for posting the 3rd most ridiculous analogy read by anyone on the internet since the mid 1990s
@@PetraKann Ridiculous? This is exactly what myth vision does! He finds similarities and then concludes that either one thing must be the other or the other copied from the another. Which is the real ridiculous thing! If you apply that thinking to my real life story then you have to conclude one of us copied from each because we shared similarities which would be impossible since neither of us has ever met ever in our lives.
According to atheists, it is just a random chance. But if that explanation helps the Christian case, they will use the "You SEE, the Bible copied the pagan myths!"
And they claim that apologists are lying grifters. They are projecting.
Wait. My comment got deleted or temporarily hidden?
You both copied Homer
The "scholarship" Derek presents is fucking bonkers
Lmao
Poor bonkers, getting defiled like that.
It crazy how much length people Go to reject God
Why would God have any connection to anything humans, essentially men, have written down?
@ because a creator would be much more interested in life than non life which the majority of the universe is
@ not only that but we’re also intelligent life who can love,hate,change,
@Christisthetruce how do you what a "creator" is interested in?
@ logic and the cross of Jesus Christ
Somebody on the Mythvision channel tried to tell me the gospel authors copied Homer 1:1.
I'm guessing the people who make this argument has never read the Iliad or the Odyssey
It was Agamemnon who asked Jupiter /Zeus to stay the sun for one day.
“Zeus, most glorious, most great, the one of the dark clouds, that dwellest in the heaven, grant that the sun set not, neither darkness come upon us, until I have cast down in headlong ruin the hall of Priam … burned with consuming fire”. (Illiad II:412-415). Consuming fire, in biblespeak = the Sun.
Exactly.Those were written by intelligent people with culture.
@@harveywabbit9541So Joshua is Agamemnon?
@@harveywabbit9541 what does that have to do with anything
@@zachv
How did Agamemnon become the biblical Jephthah?
This is something I never heard of and seems ridiculous. None of the Gospels and the book of Acts seem to even remotely resemble any Greek myth as far as I am aware of. The only similarity I see is Paul being shipwrecked, nothing else.
It boggles my mind as well how anyone could attempt this.
Amen brother @@InspiringPhilosophy
It sounds like the Titanic movie is plagiarized from Homer.
Yeah I’m sure early Christians from the apostles onward just did everything in their power to get these writings circulated and spread under threat of death because it was fun to read right
Early Christians prized literacy and studying scripture so much so that NT Wright even states if you were to walk into a meeting or congregation you’d assume it was a philosophical school or institution, with prayer and worship being central to it.
Many were illiterate so church teachers and leaders taught them how to read. They were at the forefront of codices that contained more information and were easier to use for locating different passages.
One of the more notable aspects of early Christianity was the very strong desire for EVERYONE to read these writings. By any means possible. They did everything to get this message spread, because it actually happened and is vital for the future of whoever reads it.
You just made that all up. Non scriptural drivel.
Do you have books for that topic? I want to read that.
You are just making stuff up. The first gospel was written 50 years after Jesus died. Doesn't sound like people in a hurry to me.
@@desideriusfelicia6811 NT Wright “The New Testament in its world” is where I read about that primarily. It’s a really good read if you’re into early Christianity in general.
Also “ancient Christian worship” by andrew mcgowan is a good read, goes in depth on their practices and liturgies including how they’d read
My favorite ridiculous statement here is MacDonald saying, "Odysseus was a carpenter." It's almost laughably bad how far of a reach it has to be.
Odysseus was a king, and his father was a king, and for generations his family is comprised of kings. Odysseus' wit and political know-how were so famed that Tyndareus called him to settle the political messiness of marrying off Helen. Odysseus' life prior to the Trojan War we see only indications of him as a politician, perhaps someone qualified to be a lawyer, but no indication he was a laborer of any kind.
The only act Odysseus doing anything even related to carpentry is his making his own bed, and in the context of that scene in the Odyssey it's meant to be a show of his cleverness since it allows Penelope to give a riddle that only Odysseus would know the answer to. Odysseus making his own bed doesn't make him a carpenter any more than you making a meal for your family makes you a chef. Unless MacDonald is trying to claim, what, Odysseus made the Trojan Horse himself? You can't even say, "Well, Odysseus MIGHT have been in charge of making the Trojan Horse - it was his idea, after all." Nope, he commissioned the construction of the horse itself to Epeius.
The only manual labor we do know that Odysseus may have performed as a king is farming, since he did own a plow, used as part of a scheme to feign madness - but it may have simply been a plow in his possession used by a servant, rather than one he would personally use.
Google "Was Odysseus a carpenter?" and let me know what it says.
@@karkha2 Indeed, he was, but that was more of a skill he had than his occupation(while in case of Jesus this is how He earned a living until He started His ministry).
@@karkha2ah yes, because when you read the Odyssey it repeatedly refers to him as a carpenter and not the king of Ithica.
@@BigBroTejano you make missing the point seem so easy.
@@karkha2you’re trying to force a parallel.
The gospels have people in them doing things, the Odyssey has people in them doing things, they're practically identical!!!
My favorite part of the bible is when Jesus puts on his sunglasses and says: "I'll be back"
"This WW2 documentary used sound effects designed by Skywalker Sound and cinematography borrowed from Star Wars... could World War 2 be a fictitious event? 😱"
WWII was actually borrowing from the Illiad
WWII was based on the Illiad, I will debate anyone on this.
@InspiringPhilosophy thanks for getting new background music for your videos
And the war against Derek's terrible arguments against the Bible continues!
But don’t you understand? According to his video, he has INESCAPABLE evidence! 😂 checkmate silly apologist
Great video as always IP. I never understand why people keep insisting Jesus is a retread of old myths despite the fact that it's been debunked time and time again.
They hate Jesus
You can make an argument that the Bible copies Flanders, but definitely not Homer.
It was Agamemnon who asked Jupiter /Zeus to stay the sun..
“Zeus, most glorious, most great, the one of the dark clouds, that dwellest in the heaven, grant that the sun set not, neither darkness come upon us, until I have cast down in headlong ruin the hall of Priam … burned with consuming fire”. (Illiad II:412-415).
@ “I’m too drunk to taste this chicken”
-Colonel Sanders
The skeptics ignore history. The people that wrote down the gospel and spread it DIED for this! After being tortured, they continued. Just read the church fathers and the lives of the early saints.
Yes and wasn’t just because they believed it like Muslims die for their beliefs….they actually saw the resurrected Christ.
Thank you so much for doing this one!
I tuink this view only holds up to people who neither read Homer or the bible. This makes me question if he's really a scholar and from what university. Because whatever uni it was he needs a refund
You'd be surprised what lengths scholar would go to gain notoriety.
Nice detective work. MacDonald’s “work” proves why you shouldn’t start with a framed conclusion and try to jam conflicting evidence into that frame.
Odysseus went through may trials.
When someone is at a trial, when standing before the judge, a defendant will make a really poor case.
Thus, Dennis McDonald is not actually trying to make an argument, he's just trying to imitate Homer's epics.
Whoever thinks the gospels are reworked stories from Homer has never read either.
I do not read Hector slaying dudes a think this guy reminds me of Jesus giving the sermon on the mount
Another silly hypothesis that only Mythvision and their fans can believe!
IP intellectually devouring his McDonalds 🍟🍔RIP nemesis criticism
I'm about half way through at the Odysseus & the Cyclops compared to Mark 5. I literally LoLed & it is so intellectually painful.
This was excellent! Please do many more videos on this. So many people are falling for these lies. I look forward to Inspiring Philosophy refuting Mythvision’s series on this subject.
That stream with "Donald McDennis" was pretty awesome lol
I'm looking at the comparison between the cyclops and the healing of the demonic man. How does Odysseus blinding a monstrous cyclops translate into Jesus transferring demons from a man to a herd of pigs? The two stories are nowhere similar!
The Pixar theory makes more sense than this!
Totally agree
"Readers for two thousand years apparently have been blind to this important aspect of Mark's project." Gee, I wonder why...
Nope. I’ve never seen the phrases ‘Duh’ or ‘Hmmmmm Hotdogs’ written in the Bible.
Let's get IP to 500k!
His views are already over 100 mil.
@@DarkBlade37 Those are rookie numbers son.
Why?
I belive he needs to start making videos in different languages.
There's 2 billion Christians across the globe after all m it can be easily done
I recently read Homers Iliad and Odyssey, and whilst I thoroughly enjoyed them, the idea of the bible plagiarising it is utterly idiotic.
The claim: 👄👅👹👽👾🎄🥀🌈💥💫🍼🥕🍽🌨🐁🦣🍻🏆🤼🌆🏜🔮🛍🉐🈺📩♎🔲㊙☣🚾⛰⛽🎸👷💇♀🧤👇🗣🫁💄👁🤯
The evidence:
IP keep your work up, I saw Derek’s response video to you(I didn’t find it convincing) and I just want to say that of my study of the Homer claims they seem to be extremely forced, just know IP that the scholarly consensus is on your side and a majority of skeptical and Christian scholars disagree with this homer conclusion, the claims of MacDonald while respected are oftentimes unconvincing to most scholars believers and unbelievers alike
Thanks, Derek doesn’t realize the gift he just gave us.
Oh and nice cop out at the end by the way, that was a nice touch! Lol
1:52 "They both suffer many things at the hands of murderous usurpers" also describes Hamlet. Enduring stories have a lot of overlapping themes because those themes resonate with us, and they resonate with us because they reflect the human condition (it's us, we're the murderous usurpers)
Eres mi 21siglo apostol favorito en inglés. Ojalá nuestro Señor nunca te haga desfallecer. Oro pro te!
He's not an apostle..?
I suggested this one :) It's one of the silliest comparisons yet
It is always arrogant when someone comes along with a brand new understanding of the gospels and the church that everyone has mysteriously "missed". From progressive christianity, to new age, to Nicea conspiracies to Sabellianism. They all do that.
Please confirm, is this the scholar that Derek was championing?
That’s him.
@InspiringPhilosophy this is beyond embarrassing for someone who claims to pursue truth.
What’s funny is Derek has had Bart on Channel several times and even Bart disagrees with Macdonald.
"There is not a stitch of evidence to suggest that mystery cults played any role whatever in the views of the Pharisees or, for that matter, in the views of any Jewish group of the first century: the Sadducees, the Essenes (who produced the Dead Sea Scrolls), the revolutionaries who wanted to overthrow the Romans, the apocalyptic prophets like John the Baptist (and their followers), or the common people. So not only do we not know whether mystery cults were influenced by “the” (alleged) ancient view of the world-whatever that might be-there is not a shred of evidence to suggest that these cults played the least role in the development of early views of Jesus. Rather, we have plenty of reasons, based on our early Jewish sources, that just the opposite was the case."
Bart Ehrman
You can mount a sizable critique of Christian doctrine if a person just sites mainstream scholarship. Why someone would resort to this as an appeal to scholarship is beyond me.
Thank you for this, hadn't even about heard this one yet. I've lost count of all the different viral conspiracy claims about Jesus and the Bible... I feel like a broken record in the comment fields, writing the same arguments and sharing the same refuting links over and over.
5:30 The early church were voracious readers, I really doubt they wouldn't notice a copy of such a well-known text
Or even early critics of Christianity.
EVERYONE used Homer's stories as a framework for thier stories.
Someone writing a History if Trump makes an offhand parallel between Elon Musk and Tony Stark
“See? Musk wasn’t a real person, just a retelling of the Iron Man story by the poet Marvel” - McDonald, probably
Yay IP! I am Learning! Thanks brother..
LOL this sounds like some desperate senior's thesis
Imo McDonald should’ve stayed in the fast food business
and you should keep fasting ❤
Just when I thought conspiracy theories about the New Testament couldn't get any dumber ...
MacDonald: Hold my beer ...
Let’s get Wesley Huff bring his expertise to the conversation. Everyone enjoyed his recent conversation with Joe Rogan. I’m sure he could give you details regarding Homer and the Bible
If you're familiar with the language that academics use when they are trying to say that something is bogus, you can see it exuding from all the quotations where they're talking about McDonald's idea. In fact, they go far beyond what academics usually say when they talk about "distortion."
That should show how far out this theory actually is. Kudos to IP for even giving it the time of day, let alone giving a full response. It will be really helpful for the people who aren't familiar with Homer or the NT.
These theories are now so old, it just took a more pagan culture, like ours , to think they found something new. This is certainly not the case. Paul and cyclops? Where on earth did you get that? These ideas have been put to rest many times by previous generations of thinkers.
,
Great video IP🙏🙏🙏🙏🎉🎉
short answer: no
Long answer: lmao no
Literally every video I watch of yours I think of the opening statement to myself
The Bible is really about baseball. The homer is so important to the game, and apparently people have been playing baseball starting in the big inning, all the way up until the fall of the Roman umpire.
I can’t believe they just doubled down on thid
Yeah, it was pretty bad. They basically demonstrated they are assuming their conclusion.
Great refutation! Thank you for your research.
Will you do a video about similar claim, that Pentatuch is buillt of Homer and Plato?
Great job!
If everything in the Bible were plain and easy to comprehend - there would no need for apologetics. Which means we would lack a deeper understanding of scripture. Maybe God planned it out that there would be some similarities so that we could dive into history and scripture even more?
A big freaking moment!
My favorite adaptation of Homer is Captain Cook's Voyages. Tahitian and Hawaiian women clearly represent Circe and the sirens. Like any good mythological story, the hero is declared to be a god at the end.
I have a question about a bible problem I found and it turns out i'm not the first, but I can't find a good solution. In Ezra 4:5, 6 and 7 we read about a different Persian king each verse: Darius, Xerxes and Artaxerxes. They, according to the text, would be a problem during the building of the second temple. But the building of the temple would've been completed during the reign of Darius, and the other two came after him. So my question is: how is this possible? (Also see Ezra 6:14!)
Greetings from the Netherlands
Wait. Can you explain why the temple was rebuild under darius?
I don't remember that being said in the book of Nehemiah?
@OnTheThirdDay that is because the book of Nehemiah is not about the rebuilding of the temple. Rather about rebuilding of the city walls
I just watched the Unpacked video on the second temple (as I haven't read the books in a while).
Does it clearly say it is FULLY finished under Darius?
Did they continue building after it was technically finished?
Could it be referring to the city being rebuilt but not being very clear about it?
Note that an elleged error here is not about "mythical" history.
This is within "normal" history and the temple WAS rebuilt. The question is how and in what way did the messy historical situation get documented.
The lengths that some people will go to in order to discredit Christ is embarrassing, but not surprising!
People forget that before Christ came into the world, they already knew he would be coming due to Adam and Noah transmitting the oral promise made by GOD.. the ancients knew a saviour would come, just not when he would appear.. the devil already had a plan set forth to deceive the people into believing a promised seed had already come..
One that I take issue with in the video is the discussion of the phenomenon that IP described. We still do that adapting works to new contexts sometime with the same name, but other times it’s as blatant as the movie Beastly, which was a modern take on beauty and the beast, samurai films being remade as westerns, Shawshank Redemption was Count of Monte Cristo, Sons of Anarchy was biker Hamlet, West Side Story was Romeo and Juliet. Many of them will point that out by having the characters out right say it or the name, oh and how could I forget we’re talking about Homer, “Oh Brother Where Art Though?” They all one to one but the inspiration is referenced or stated in most if not all of these.
I disagree with 7... a Legion is "nobody", for a Legion is made of many... all with one goal (eye) in their minds.
That’s a stretch IMO
Don't you love it when skeptics find things no one in the past 2 (or more in the case of the OT) thousand years ever saw? "Did you know homosexuality wasn't actually prohibited?!"
If you are interested in actual early Christian stuff, there are a fair amount of Christians quoting bits of pagan poetry that were believed to have been legit prophecy about Christ, like the prophecy of pagan Balaam, or like the quotations from Epimenides in St. Paul. Courtney J.P. Friesen has a really fun book called Acting Gods, Playing Heroes, and the Interaction between Judaism, Christianity, and Greek Drama in the Early Common Era. If you read Greek, you can have a lot of fun reading the referenced bits of Euripides with early Christian eyes, and seeing how Euripides really does seem to prophesy Christ, as well as voicing pagan dissatisfaction with pagan gods and the whole pre-Christian system, in a way inspired (in a lesser way than Scripture) by the Holy Spirit. The book also explains a lot of allusions in the Fathers, in martyr stories (including by actions), in early Christian tomb paintings and early church decorations, and so on.
Now you need to check off the growing claim of Vespasian being the real "eye-spitting" miracle healer and we're done with the modern day zeitgeist.
And for anyone to think people back then didn't quote the pop-culture of their day makes them arrogant, hubristic, some better word I'm not thinking of...
zietgeist addundum is saying there are many similiarties in religious stuff
Parallelomania sounds like what evolutionists do. "This fossil looks like an earlier version of this one."
Even Penn & Teller's BS show would not take such nutjob notion seriously...
I thought you made a video about a supposedly drowned pharoh claimed by Muslims. Can you reply with the video to me? Thanks.
Check my Instagram. It’s on there somewhere
It sounds convincing but there were not enough copies of Homer's writings around for common use, when the NT was being developed. I rate this theory as being on equal footing with the Passion NT.
Some ideas are so stupid only an academic will take them seriously (and I say this as an academic).
Are they still flogging the mythic Jesus horse?
Hi there InspiringPhilosophy I have a question what do you think of Truthunedited's latest video criticizing the doctrine of the Trinity and his criticism of Greek Philosophy in early Christianity and him saying Jesus (Yahusha) isn't co eternal alongside the Father Yahuah Elohim? Do you think Truthunedited is right about some of his criticisms but he severely mistaken on his other takes especially in his mindset about some of his positions and how he feels like people attack him constantly?
I think he has made a critical mistake denying Jesus/Yahusha's divinity because the Bible makes it clear he is eternal and a creator. Though he says the Father is greater then him that is because he is obedient and serves him eternally while sitting by him. He was there before creation and participated with the Father in making mankind in their image and he is still Alpha and Omega the First and the Last yet Truthunedited disregards this truth saying Yahusha is not God which is very bad of him to do.
I have read and studied both Homer and the Bible. I see nothing in common but humans being in them.
IP freshly baked video? Sign me up! And Dogma-Dan is already mentioned st the start 😂 Wonder if he'll block you a second time
I’m pretty sure Dan rejects MacDonald’s hypothesis, but I could be wrong.
@InspiringPhilosophy Oh I thought you were just misspelling his name on purpose, didn't know it was two completely different people 😅 McDonnell, McDonald
His last name is McClellan.
@@InspiringPhilosophy I see, that's on me 😅
By the way, IP, have you covered the shroud of Turin? I'd like to see your thoughts on it
Before this video I had not the lightest suspicion about the Gospel of Marl drawing inspiration from Homer. But you made an amazing job opening my mind to the possibility. Even tho MacDonald had an obvious agenda overestimating the influence of Homer in the gospel, some of the points he draws are not absolutely bullocks. What MacDonald overlooks is exemplified in 5:50; like Apollinarious, Mark mimics mainly stories from the Old Testament.
Anyways, the main reason I wrote this comment was that I found extremely disingenuous the way you dismiss Transvaluation, because, Transvaluation in not about replacing a problematic passage with whatever, but with an opposite. So the cyclops being called Nobody and the Demonic being called Legion is not as far fetched as you make it look. In the same vein when you say Jesus send the man to tell the story to his close ones while Odysseus told the cyclops to go to everyone is an opposition you are providing yourself an example of Transvaluation.
Of course, there is a very fine line between finding evidence of Mimetics and making it up. Sometimes stories, even real ones, are very predictable and end up walking pararel paths (like the example you mention about the boat). So, most of the time, this kind of tests are but circunstancial. If we were to find a direct Homer quotation the story would be other; but Mark was an exceptional writer, so non of that. In the end I'm content with the possibility.
In his livestream he basically demonstrates how his reasoning leads to ridiculous things like saying the American Civil War was inspired by the Iliad, basically when you look at his methodology it's pretty ridiculous. Especially with the early attestations of the gospels as history by the Church leads me to believe there isn't any possibility at all.
@@andrewnazario2253 I think you are overlooking that the Gospel of Mark was written in greek, during the time period where Homer was the most influyent it had ever been and by a person with a fine education.
Looking at extreme counterexamples to ridicule something is not a new invention. Most of MacDonald blabber was evidently misguided, if I´m allowed to speculate he found a couple of examples of Mimic in the Gospel and forcefuly extrapolated it to the rest of the case.
If the Mimic is genuine or coincidence is unknown, but given Mark's context, there is room for incertainty.
@@aramisscabott6747 honestly, Mike in the video argues it way better then I ever could, so if you still have a problem with it, I probably wouldn't be able to address it well enough 😅 Personally I don't think there's enough of a connection to warrant interpretation. Nevertheless, God bless!
No. Let me know how I can ever help you out in the future!
The best thing you can do is support us. Plus, You’ll get early access to all the videos, which is helpful because sometime our supporters check mistakes we can fix before the final public version.
inspiringphilosophy.org/give/
RIP D-Mac
Lmao, yall demons are working hard on the lies, but it fails, you know ! Jesus Christ is the only way grasshoppers.
Big gamble Mr. McDonald is taking talking against the bible. If he is right then great all is good, if he is wrong then he is blaspheming against the word of God and would go straight to hell. There are literally a million other topics he could work with and gain just as much acknowledgment from.