Wow, Dave at 56 minute Mark "An honest man who finds out he is being deceived, either stops being deceived or stops being honest" I think cuts thru all the b.s. and gets to the heart of the matter! Thanks Lloyd excellent as always 👏👍
@@davidschmid5848 I want to say Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your courage and bravery. It is so tough to stand up and be a man of honesty and integrity, and despite all the consequences, you took the high road of being true to your principles. I respect you so much. I know other elders who know what goes on in the elders meetings, judicial meetings, elders schools and etc they were such solid men they could not be part of this utter nonsense. David, I am saddened by your family situation and I pray that it will get better. How many Children do you have? The moment I realized I could not remain in the organization, I feared the loss of my wife of 28 years and my wonderful daughter. My wife knew if I was a danger to her and my daughters relationship with Jehovah the elders and the congregation would support her decision to separate from me. It brings me so much relief to hear men like the 2 of you make statements like "as elders we didn't have the necessary skills to assist in helping solve marital problems". Sometimes as I tried to assist people who came to us with family and marital problems, and we would do research and attempt to offer help them, I felt like I had no qualifications to help the sheep. And the normal results proved my feelings were correct. How many of the governing body have children or deal with the daily pressures of life in the real world? How can they write articles on how to successfully cope with problems families deal with daily? I was on a judicial commitee as a greenhorn elder with 2 elders who had maybe 8 years each experience. This was in the mid 90s we disfellowshipped a young man who had terrible mental illness, all 3 of us knew nothing about mental illness or how to deal with it. I think of what we did often. This is a burden alot of us former elders bear. Your story gave me solace to realize there are many of us who were good honest men doing the best we could with the tools we were given. But in the end we were honest to realize as sincere as we were, we were misled. Thank you David.
@@davidschmid5848 you definitely are skilled with words but, more apparent, is your heart. You seem extremely sincere and genuinely concerned with the well-being of others. Your children will learn so much from your example!
@@corrinarottum6547 Just saw this comment of yours. Thank you so much - that's incredibly kind of you! I hope you're right re my kids, that's my hope too. All the best to you, and thanks again.
@@mthokozisilanga4497 wow !! I'm sorry 😔 and I'm sure Jehovah is not at fault for what ever malicious things men are responsible of unjustified unloving acts of unkind Ness being comitted .
Jimmy Rodas Molestina Jehovah is not a fault, it’s Satan’s doing, a d the blind faith of imperfect congregation members not listening to Jesus but to men. If they cried over financial loss it’s their fault for not listening to jesus and following men, the g b are the worst and I’ll never understand why would anyone worship these loonies when we have Jesus . Let them Nash their teeth for not obeying
Lloyd, thank you for helping Steve and Dave share their stories. Your interviews are so vital to those of us waking up to realize we're not crazy and we're not alone. Keep up the great work. You're truly making a positive difference in the world.
David Schmid very good Interviews. Many thanks. İt's so important. I hope you didn't get any problems from other congregation members for talking in this Interview?
At the time mark 39:40 Thank you for elaborating on this. I was df'd and called my elder father at the time. I was about to commit suicide and after I told him I needed help, he said, "You aren't welcome here anymore." and hung up the phone. I made it. Thanks to "worldly people." I can't forget that it was the time he showed his true colours. I'm glad I got away.
Thank Goodness you got thru it which validates you Need No institutionalize Religion for guidance during dire moments but You can rely on Yourself...kudos to you my Friend!!!! Bless You.
I'm 30yrs plus away from the Org and still can't reveal my identity for fear of further punishment. I've got a great deal of respect for Steve and David for taking a risk in appearing within the video. It's a BIG deal. Thanks to both for sharing their story and insight. As always, great video!
It's the same with me. My elderly JW mother doesn't shun me and I can't risk putting her in a situation where she feels she's got no choice but to cut ties with me.
Totally understand. I'm shunned by everyone except my eldest sister who keeps a small window of access open. If I move one-inch further in my voicing against the Org i risk losing that final connection. My mother did demonstrate love and acceptance of me up until her death, much against this advice of my CO older brother. Pleased you still have a connection with your mother. It's a key relationship; one that cannot be replaced, and something to cherish. Given her circumstance, she really is demonstrating how much she loves you.
@@orpheusuk8762 My father continued as an elder even after I was disfellowshipped right up until his death. I think at the time shunning your immediate family member was considered a matter of conscience and neither one of my parents obviously never took "the new light" as a rule, but as a suggestion. My brother didn't shun me for years either, not until he married a very zealous "sister" who couldn't accept him having any kind of relationship with me. She also shunned my children even though their father was a JW in good standing and they went to all the meetings and field service. Growing up I always felt the love of my parents was conditional, but they certainly proved me wrong. For that I really am grateful. I've had wonderful parents who have always given me their support no matter what.
I can relate! Gotta be careful not to lose a very important relationship by being vocal about what I have discovered. People wake up in their own time. Really hard not to say anything, but am very sure it would ruin our relationship.
Wow. They are so courageous, self-reflected and well spoken. All the best to these two outstanding gentlemen. I hope both of you are doing alright and find a way to make peace with lost friends and family. ❤
@@davidschmid5848 I was very touched by your honesty and integrity. I could see that it was a very difficult story for you to tell. I hope that 6 months further on down the track you are going from strength to strength.
I'm Stevens cousin, I started fading about 5 years ago and finally disassociated in November of 2017. I'm so proud of Steven for doing this. Steve if your reading this I'd love to get in touch and be a support for you if I can during this time.
@@C0262931 i JUST stumbled over this video and was also wondering how you are getting on now that some time has past? Ex JW (25 yrs physically and all 47 mentally)
I was in the congregation with and a good friend of this wonderful guy. I appreciate having coming across this video and having seen you in this. I left a while back and you are not alone my friend.
Very illuminating, this explains why a publisher's "time" is such a big deal. It's so corporate, so cold, not at all spiritual. Thank you for getting these stories out there. This is how a Theocracy works.
As people who are privileged to be friends of David, we can tell you that he is one of the most honest, genuine and loving men we know. So proud to see him appear on this video!
Thank you Uncle Sacha!:) And I thank you and Sherrie for your interview (and Uncle Ben's) for giving me the courage to go public. I value and treasure our friendship more than I can express in words.
@@davidschmid5848you have been blessed even though as your world is rocking from side to side sometimes, you may not feel it. It can be a huge shock when we realise how brainwashed with lies and controlled we were. As for me, once the shock wore off, I started wondering what the real truth is then, and I pray that you won't give up on God also. Many ex JW's throw the baby out with the bathwater.
@@davidschmid5848 your spirituality more than ever means something to Jehovah, please check out Robert King E.Watchman, an anointed brother, who explains why this is unfolding right now, the stumbling we are seeing is prophetic, watchtowers down fall her judgement is imminent..Stumbled ones serve a huge purpose, check out the book of Daniel, they are stumbled for a whitening and refining to take place, Watchtower has served her purpose, we are about to enter the next phase, of Biblical prophesy, such exciting Times to be living in, especially if we are "awake"..Jah Bless my dear brother..❤
Last year this video played a big role in my awakening process, and it was key for me to step down as an Elder. What happened in our congregation was that the Branch office (Australasia) directed the body of Elders to remain silent in a matter that put at risk the physical health of the congregation members. I was deeply disturbed so I didn't care about the direction and prioritized the health and wellbeing of my brothers and sisters, especially of the elderly (yet the other 11 Elders in the body went along with what they were told, despite not being happy with it). Looking back I'm so glad I did what was right. As Dave quoted at 55:44, I decided to stop being deceived and remain honest. Thank you, Lloyd, Dave and Steveo for this video! PS: as an interesting note. This was the very first 'apostate' video I watched on TH-cam. Why did I choose this one and not others? because the guys in the video were shaved and "looked like JWs". What is crazy to me is that even as an Elder I was always ok with beards and saw no bible evidence to enforce shaving... well, guess who has a beard now 🤣
They are being shunned and they aren’t even disfellowshipped. I know how it feels. I’m not disfellowshipped either. My wife and I just faded away recently. About a week or two ago, I woke up to find that every single brother from the congregation had unfriended me on facebook. My guess is they are “showing me” love and with such loving shunning I’ll “come back to Jehovah”.
Efrain Rivera Junior me and my husband did the same too but I’m unfriend all my friend in Facebook I dicide that I’m not let them to shunning me I shun them already I don’t need those tipe of friends . I don’t need them in my life and my mom told me that she is going to reject me so I let her know that is something happens to her she need to ask for help she need to go to congregation for help because is your are going to sunning me because im thinking different just to let you know that you are not my mother anymore. For that reason I’m not going to help you with anything. I’m not going to be there only when you need or when is conveniente to the congregation they need to pay for your bill and help you with your health . It this organization teach you to reject me been your daughter. I’m learning to reject you because your cult teachings . So she finally decide not to shunning me . We need to stay strong not emotionally I know it can be hard and difficult but I’m not let them to have the power over me and my family .
@@ThePhoenixTube007 - My first congregation in Puerto Rico was Spanish. Then I moved to help in the English Congregation. My last congregation was a Spanish Congregation in Texas.
Been there ! That is the mind blowing part to me. To preach love and be Christian's above reproach...many people you considered your friends....in some cases for many years or your whole life, are able to drop you like they never knew you. That opened my eyes to the fact that they weren't true friends. That most relationships are transactional and conditional at best.
I am so grateful to you Lloyd for all you have done and continue to do to help people get out of this abusive cult. Thank you to the guests on the panel for your bravery, which should never be under estimated. Glad that the fiasco that was the Royal Commission is waking people up.
I so agree...these gentlemen are extremely gracious, and kind. All three of you gentlemen are so courageous...I know the hurt and the feelings of loss...please know that you are not alone...also Im very grateful for you coming forward. I spent 30 years as a practicing JW, feeling deep down inside that something just wasn't right with this religion, even as young girl. You are leading the way for so many to fade away...just want you to know I so appreciate all you are sacrificing for folks like me....
I honestly don't know how anyone with a decent level of inner humanity and compassion could watch the ARC and not wake up. But indoctrination has such a strong hold on some people's minds!
There was a pioneer sister who told that after watching the ARC she felt even greater love for the GB. She sung Jackson’s praises about how calm he remained under questioning and how mild his replies. However...this woman also displayed Narcissistic Personality Disorder with a deep persecution complex. I guess birds of a feather flock together. When they see those traits in others they admire that person because of the strong resemblance in themselves.
@@marafayde1285 Wow, that's really something. It makes me sad, because there are honest hearted people out there who really want it to be true. They want to think the best, they want to do the right things, they want to obey, etc. The indoctrination runs deep. Hopefully she'll realize at some point what she's actually dealing with. And you are right, if she's got those mental issues, then the GB are going to seem alright to her.
Hi Elise, I know it's two years ago that you said this, but it truly resonated with me, I wholeheartedly agree. They allow no place for simply being a human being who makes mistakes, Im referring to their judicial system and also all the rules we have. I left 6 months ago and have been found and brought to life in Jesus Christ, I hope you have been too. Thanks for your comment.
Whenever I hear of anyone appointed getting out, it gives me such hope. My heart goes out to anyone in the position to choose between expressing their truth or losing their spouse and damaging their immediate family unit. Great interviews, guys!
Thank you Cass. Yes it's the hardest decision I've ever faced personally, but one that had to be made for so many reasons, first and foremost to give my kids an option at the earliest possible time.
Thank you so much for bringing these issues to light, I know I'm probably in the minority on the channel but I've never been a JW. I was in a pretty oppressive Lutheran church growing up and I've been very interested in learning about how religion affects people since becoming agnostic. I think its so important to have platforms to critique these institutions and I think you're doing great work!
This platform is for Active& Inactive JW's and all who have been apart of any oppressive religion so you are more than welcome because this serves as a warning to all thinking about joining the JW's.Thanks for your comment about your religion.As JW's we were forbidden to learn anything worthwhile about other religions.
I've been part of JW in my youth and leaved when 13. About two years now that I dived into knowing more about what was this "religion" I grew up into. Oh my, I learned so much. And I didn't kept my learning to JW only. I became more interested as a whole in religions/cults overall (Mormons, Scientology, Adventists, Islam, etc.). What they are all about, what are their beliefs and mostly... how these beliefs affects their followers life be it positively or negatively. I'm also curious in understanding how each different religion members can be convinced to be in the only one "Truth". When you have hundreds of very different religions claiming to detain the truth, it is clear to me that there must be some "lies" hidden there. As the host said: Everyone should not be ashamed an ounced to look what the critics arguments are against your religion. If your religion tries to discourage you or making you feel guilty to search on your religion; it should ring some bells! All this to say that I can understand were you are coming from and glad to see that you have some interest in learning about jehovah witnesses. I guess you are well inform now to not blindly fall in their beliefs and maybe enough informed to challenge their "truth" if you ever happen to encounter one's of JW.
Thank you Lloyd for your continuing work. Thank your guests for telling their stories. I spent years POMI and very depressed and guilt ridden. I know there are people out there you all are helping.
I've never been a JW, but I always feel fascinated to learn more about the way they think and act. I'm used to see JWs in my area and I can't help but to feel pity for them. Last time I was talking to one of them he was speechless when I told him that if he doesn't accept all other beliefs, he would understand that an outsider isn't going to accept his belief, just because a bunch of guys in New York say so.
Elders - Compartmentalising for Watchtower since 1938... Really enjoying the honesty and appreciate your personal integrity. Your compassionate nature will be remembered and hopefully still help others in time. Stephen - your friend made me think of prob my favourite quote, which helps me appreciate what matters after the disappointment of not fitting in with the structure: "Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." - Marcus Aurelius -
It's a battle while in, and it can eat you up when you leave. I've tried to "atone" for some of my actions - even going back on old rv's to explain the truth about the truth, and apologising to some who I had at one time shunned. Learning to forgive yourself is also an important part. We were all victims of very skilled mind controllers.
Excellent point made by David at the end about how much time & research goes into purchasing an electronic product like an iPhone or a New Car of years in buying the Right house but I spent 6 months studying the ' Truth that leads to Eternal Life' ..Small Blue book in 1978 & then gave my Whole life & gave up my family to become a baptisedJW!! When I look back now it was sheer madness as I was so convinced it was the 'TRUTH'
So true, and I feel for you. And that's the value of developing critical thinking and scepticism. The more a belief demands of you, the more it should be scrutinised.
Great interview. Reminds me when my father was "reaching out" he was told he wasn't qualified because the house was a bit messy... Three young children in a house is hard to keep tidy... Yet an elder in the next Cong had a huge mess of a house... It's all about certain characteristic of each body
Wow, I loved this. And I recognise how it's important that people know we did not 'fall away' we stepped away, with deliberate movement. Heart goes out to two truly decent honest men and also gives me hope that more will see TTATT. My own marriage fell apart when I stepped away and it was a truly awful time, but with 12 years hindsight I can say it was the best thing for all of us. He is now happily remarried to a good JW, and I'm 10 years of wedded bliss to a critical thinking atheist. Both of my kids are out and free.
Love your comment about a deliberate stepping away. Yes we have left for good reasons. To stay, we would've had to ignore what we knew was wrong = not an option. Glad that you're happy and free now!
My heart goes out to those that have lost so much in so many ways just for questioning the meaning of TRUTH. Thank you for your honesty, kindness and TRUTH. I wish you nothing but love on your journey forward.
Awesome video. I left in 1997 . I've experienced grilling by elders when I brought to their attention to the abuse of my children. I was treated badly for rattling on my husband. I was treated as if disfellowshiped. It was terrible. So much hubris and protection of abusers is a travesty.
What could be better on a wet cold afternoon than listening to another interview with 2 more elders that have woken up & left, despite family problems to over come. It gladdens my heart becasue it's sending a very clear message to the congregation's that something is very wrong. The org. is certainly loosing many sincere people with a conscience. Best wishes to Steve & Dave.
I keep hearing these cases of people who are born into a controlling religion, even multi-generational, achieve some position of authority and respect within the organization, but then "wake up" and leave. This is *very* encouraging and heartening. These people know the possible penalties for openly and publicly leaving instead of quietly "fading", but they do it anyway, and serve as examples and inspiration for others who are fearful. Hearing Dave tell unknown others, "We are here for you", I have to say back, Dave and Steve, we are here for you, too. Speaking as someone who was never part of the JWs, but who recognizes the courage and honesty you demonstrate in your coming out, I have to tell you that you are not alone. If you end up being forced to leave behind everyone you really knew, all your friends and family, know that there are many others, ex-members or not, who appreciate and welcome you. The organization can take away your relationships with everyone still part of it, but they cannot isolate you from the overwhelming majority of the world who are not. We value you as human beings, not as members of one or another group, and independently of how many things on which we agree or disagree with you. I hope that more and more, those still in the organization refuse to shun when told to, and that many of them realize the immorality of the whole situation and also leave. Lloyd, Telltale, and others have increasingly convinced me of the evil of the practice of shunning, which I'd formerly considered innocuous, and a matter of individual choice. I thank them for that (always good to be corrected when wrong), as well as for providing platforms for brave people who defy the Governing Board and their types everywhere.
Been inactive for 15 months. Trying to convince my PIMI wife that im being shunned due to "spiritual weakness" is like trying to convince a witness that 607BCE isnt real.
My wife is inactive because of medical issues. But she dose the meanings on the phone and internet. I am an Agnostic, and wish my wife would see that JW is a cult.
Wow, two very brave men. Massive respect. Thanks for sharing your experiences, guys. It’s always good to hear things from another perspective. Thanks Lloyd, as always
@@davidschmid5848 - I left the 'truth' 28 yrs ago after being brought up as a 3rd generation JW and it probably took me ten yrs to feel normal in the world but even now I still feel the effects... hence the reason I enjoy watching Lloyd so much... it's like therapy. 😀
We are returning from a road trip to GA and we have enjoyed listening to John Cedars on our road trip. Such salient topics! I was a deacon for years ( ie the Bible Students form of Ministerial Servant). It was almost expected for any young Bible Students men to eventually become elders. But unlike JWs BS men were elected by each ecclesia individually. When it came “time” for me to be nominated all the “qualified “ young men in our congregation were nominated and elected except for me! I was the only one with a college education and it was held against me. I was considered a know it all upstart by the older elders and a bit too much of a rebel for the position, even by my father! I was utterly and totally humiliated. I never felt so utterly disappointed, rejected, and I felt this all consuming wave of utter embarrassment I never felt to that time, or anytime since that time. That night I was inconsolable and I felt like I had been completely stomped on. My wife tried hard to tell me I’ll look back at that incident and be glad that I wasn’t made an elder. It took a while but she was completely correct!!! It would have made nearly impossible for me to leave the Bible Students had I been made an elder. Sometimes what we are told is best for us, or what we want most for ourselves is actually the worst thing for us. I am much much happier now with my freedom! My dear wife was right and I was wrong but couldn’t see it at the time.
thx for info. I left also after 11 years of pioneering and saw the elders hide truth to their congregation about me rather than they being found out to be incapable of handling a problem. I found them very haughty, and certainly inadequate for the situation. I was in a very violent marriage and they said I had to be submissive and must have caused the violence. !!! i remember being so horrified that i could have gone to these for help when i so badly needed help. i feel blessed that this woke me up and i left the marriage and the religion love life now
Thanks for sharing ur story,i just very new but one day i was in the meeting as a guest i so horrific that have to stay in un happy married i strongly against that teaching,take care 🙏🙏 hope u r doing well as built ur new life n enjoy
Appreciate you brothers for your honesty and bravery. I feel only honest hearted and courageous people will come out of this organization. Welcome to your freedom and I wish you all the best. (John 8:32) Thank you Lloyd once again for making these interviews.
I’ve been in their shoes. Very brave. I struggled for so long after being involved in a case of abuse. It’s the same story time and time again. There is human error and there is systemic dysfunction. They’re brave for doing this. Thank you Loyd for another great interview. I might be ready to do mine :) Elder for 5 years. Bethelite for 5. Regular pioneer for 12. Got out of school at 15. GED. My story is a bit crazy
Both of my uncles are elders and my mother is a devout JW. I have been praying that something can jolt them into a reasonable and logical state of thinking and realization. I’m glad all three of you gentlemen saw through it all.
The Australian Royal Commission jolted me...even thought I had already left! And Matt 24! The JW have it drilled into their heads that there HAS to be a one true religion no matter what. And this religion looks and acts like the closest thing to the true religion. They reason that it's not perfect because men are not perfect. They rely on the cherry picked scripture in Proverbs about light getting brighter so are ok with mistakes and changes...when really that whole chapter is talking about the path of the righteous getting brighter or more visible VS the unrighteous because of their conduct! And that Jesus gives good instruction and would NEVER let his people stumble! They just wait on Jehovah. They completely ignore Jesus warnings at Matt 24 where he warns to look out that you are not mislead...that even the chosen ones could be mislead! That really struck me! We always used Matt 24 to prove we were in the last days when Jesus was listing the signs but never really gave attention to that first one! To look out that you are not mislead! And that the chosen ones could be mislead? That's huge! And when it comes to the Faithful and discreet slave...they use that to prove there should be a Governing body. Well Jesus warned even they could be thrown in with the hypocrites! How would they know? They are not even allowed to "look out" or " watch out". Not even allowed to question! To obey " even if it doesnt seem sound from a human standpoint!". I am hoping to wake up my family with Matt 24 . And where the bible speaks about Satan disguising himself as an angel of light. The JW always point out how it's easy to identify false religion. But if Satan can disguise himself as an " angel of light" what would that look like and how would you protect yourself if even the chosen ones could be mislead? How would you know? It takes going beyond those who could be deceiving them and making sure! They are scared into thinking it's not ok to go beyond Watchtower but Jesus warns them to!
What do you tell a JW when they say faith without works is dead? They are clearly a works based faith. If you find salvation through works, what was the point of Christ spilling his blood for our salvation and Paul telling us that we are saved by faith alone, not works, lest any man should boast?
@@BoBo-wi2db first of all works naturally come with faith...otherwise it's not real. I think that was the point. When I was a JW the " works" was forced! Not in my heart! And works supporting men who are being thrown in with the hypocrites do not count! You are right! What was the purpose of Jesus buying our sins? He did not do that for nothing!
Mama Bear Exactly. I was pretty much forced to go from ages 12-16, as was my brother and sister. My brother and I were taken out of my Methodist church and it devastated me. So I naturally scrutinized everything about that organization. Even as a child I had critical thinking skills. I always asked why do they have to keep up with your field service hours? I agree that works come with faith just as a result of faith and live. Never once did any elder or brother try to save anyone by the gospel. They only emphasized going door to door. My brother was baptized at age 16 and left at age 18, and my mother had to shun him, even though he lived at home. This is not a religion. It’s an authoritative group of men who control what people think and believe. My heart goes out to the people who can’t see through it. I want so badly to rescue my mother and sister. Say a prayer for them if you would. ❤️🙏
Hi Lloyd, in case you read this, please send my regards and appreciation to Steve. We were in the same congregation back in 2013. I wasn't there for long and we didn't exchange paths that much (different service groups in quite a large congregation) but I do remember him (and his wife) as he was probably the youngest elder in the body. I'm glad he has woken up and that it has not completely broken his marriage. I was single back then but married now and I know how difficult it can be for the believing spouse to adapt to a new situation they didn't ask for. Thanks for sharing your story, Steve.
Excellent, as usual. Having been an elder for two decades I can concur to their feelings. I resigned myself from being an elder to take better care of my five kids, to have more time to turn them into better Jehovahs Witnesses. The pressure to perform had become unbearable. I was more than fully in. One year and an half later the whole family faded. It was what happened after resigning that woke us up. Thank you for sharing all these videos.
I find it fascinating that no matter where in the world someone may live, their experiences in the org are so similar to one another, and when you think about it, it becomes a testament for the governing body as it proves just how vast and powerful their control really is. Which also proves that this is simply a man made organization run by a group of misogynistic, egotistical, power tripping, evil men. Great video yet again, Lloyd. Thank you so much for all that you do!
I decided to Disassociate instead of Fading ... I was fortunate my parents didn't Shun me... I told them I left a Man Made Religion (Cult) ... but I didn't leave God n Jesus Christ...it's hard for a JW to separate the "GB" from God... today they are still in the ORG...We respect each other's wishes...🤗
@@amandahuginkiss4098 Totally agree with that process you described. For me, when I had the realisation that I only believed in JW's because of how I was raised, the logical succession was that the same was true for my belief in the Bible and God. Throw in the geographical accident of what religion you're taught as a child, and in depth research becomes a must! Non Stamp is brilliant, as is Theramin Trees, and anything Matt Dilahunty does!
Great interview. It's great to see more good men stand up for what is right. I know it's hard and scary but, you guys have done the right thing. If you need to chat with someone else that's going through this process, please contact me.
These are your best videos Lloyd!!! These are the type of videos that help active JWs wake up, realize that they are not alone, that elders are coming out, and that their experiences are shared among all JWs! Your other videos on JW doctrinal issues serve to keep people from returning to the cult, in my opinion. All of your material is wonderful and useful.
I am so proud of both of these men for taking a courageous moral stand to leave the WT!! Wonderful interview and I am looking forward to seeing both of them continue to grow outside of the cult!! Thanks for another great interview Lloyd!
Thank you so so so very much for your bravery! I have witnessed first hand elders struggling with their moral compass! Brought them to tears but their hands were tied with " direction from headquarters" and " putting the congregation first". I cringe anytime I hear someone may face a judicial hearing. I really feel like no one owes the organization anything! I went through the whole disfellowshipping, get reinstated scene. I was still ostracized for years by many! My children as well by people I knew my whole life that didn't have a clue what was going on! When I left I felt like I didnt owe them ANYTHING! I was not bound by those man made rules! No letter...nothing. All my family and friends from the org shun me for leaving my own way....that's on them to treat me like I'm DF'd.
When I was called to appear for a "meeting" with the elders, I politely declined and said I did not wish to come, that I had been trying to leave a while now.
38:00 - J-Dub’s on medication? I’ve NEVER heard about that before. Sarcasm aside, one of the first thing my mother did after she woke up just recently, was to drop her antidepressants.
Interesting, when i got out of the borg was able to give up antidepressants after being on them for 20 years. I have often wonder why, i think it was my subconscious battle with cognitive dissonance and living in an environment of never being good enough.
@@sollasollew3208 - You could go to my mother's congregation and randomly ask any brother or sister for an antidepressant, and they would look at you and say: "Which one do you want and what dosage?"
@@EfrainRiveraJunior obviously depression is a major issue for first world countries but from my observations there seems to be a concentration of depression suffers among JWs. I'm fascinated in knowing why the dynamics of the JW structure feeds the depressive mind. It would make an excellent thesis study for a phycology student as there is strong evidence to support a hot spot per population for depression among JWs.
I think a lot of has to do with an atmosphere of Fear, Obligation, and Guilt. There’s so much pressure to be productive and prove your spirituality through visible observation, through measurable numbers. There’s this constant awareness of one’s inadequacy, that one could be doing more. Self worth is tied up with producing and displaying. When you falter even for a moment you feel like a failure.
Wow! So glad these men have had the strength of character to stand up and be counted...that was pretty difficult to listen to. I was never a witness but went along now and again. ...the elders always struck me as weak meddling little men who wanted power! How right I was..thank goodness I wasn't drawn into it...I must be stronger than I think because I would never ever let any silly old man guide my life!
Imagine if you'd been brought up as a child into it. I was raised Catholic, and that was bad enough, being told by those I trusted most all sorts of silly magical stories, many of which were clearly, on the face of it, lies. I gave up on all faith-based systems about age 10, but maybe I wouldn't have fared as well in a more controlling religion. I'm glad you weren't taken in by the JWs, and hope you weren't taken in by any other of their kind. There's a silly old man in a dress and comical hat whom I was taught to greatly respect, and at least in part to let guide my life. The current one is more silly than evil, but his predecessor Ratzinger, was despicable.
WOW! Great interview. It came to my mind when watching this that the watchtower is actually driving good, decent and loving people out. You can tell Steve and Dave are two very genuine, loving individuals with huge hearts and good consciences. Because of the towers need for control and rules, decent elders like this are dropping like flies and not just out of being and elder out period! What is left is narcissistic, uncaring, unfeeling men who bully and don't care about anyone or anything but their own agenda. Years before me and my husband woke up we experienced this first hand. Which led to our switching congregations. My husband was a MS and we were really that "perfect" JW family doing everything exactly like we should and absolutely no controversy. After we switched halls, years later, an elder told us about the letter they received about us and it was HORRIBLE!! He said he has no idea why they would write something so awful about us when he could see that is not who we were. I think that is when the first seeds of doubt were planted. We did EVERYTHING we could and this?? It still took a few years after that before the ARC and pillowgate etc. really opened our eyes and we finally left Dec. 2017. Thank you Lloyd for being part of our journey.
So glad to hear that you and your husband woke up together! Yes the letters that would accompany members when they switched congs could be so brutal - often influenced by one elder who might've had a grudge against an individual. Another avenue where pettiness was often on full display.
Once again, great video. I've been out of the organization for over twenty years, but I still empathize with JWs whom I used to call my brothers and sisters.
Same - and it's so important to remember what our mindset was like when we were believers. Remembering that helps to keep us approachable when the time is right for ones who are waking.
The more I learn the more I want to come out to my family as a non believer. I know I will lose a majority of them and that is the only reason it has taken me so long to say anything. I know the time is near and there is only so much a person can tolerate before you reach a breaking point. I just know I dont want the organization to influence my life or my kids lives anymore...
I was there! My two children were at baptism age ( actually a little older, 10 and 11) and I was petrified! You can do this! Save you and your children!
Your personal happiness and freedom for your kids has to come first. Your're right about breaking points - I did 6 months of being an active elder whilst almost fully awake - it was hell! Six months was my breaking point, I know of others who managed years to try and get loved ones out, some being successful and others not. But just know your limits - don't let them break you.
Wish you luck Dee. Yes your family won't be able to see reason but down the track your kids will thank you and I'm sure you will look back and thank your self! It's possibly one the harder things to do in life having family feel sorry for you. My younger brother is an uber elder and will never see reason, I have had many discussions with him on just how wrong the cult/organisation is but when your inside it, you just refuse to see the truth. I'm sure he sees me as an apostate (their term not mine - as it actually means simply someone who changes their belief in religion/politics) and now is unwilling to further discuss anything with me so yes that side of leaving is difficult but being true to oneself brings freedom to you and your kids. Best.
Dee JMC ..just play at being a double agent and slowly try to educate your loved ones so you can save them from a hippocritical life of sadness and sorrow..
@@richardhowe4140 It would be very difficult. I have alot of family who are witnesses, at least 30 members basically all of my immediate family I was baptized at 13, and I have all but defected by slowly fading. Its just gonna be really hard for me to hold my tounge when majority of our family takes a strong stand in the organization.
I was " marked" in the congregation. My "friends" distanced themselves from me to the point that I couldn't even get a "friend" to go out for a cup of coffee after the meeting...☕...😟...
I'm so proud of you. It's not easy to admit (even to yourself) that you've been wrong and duped all your life, not to mention facing the consequences of that admission.
True. As a believer, the thought of being wrong is so uncomfortable and disturbing. Now I enjoy finding where my thinking needs improvement - that's the path to continual growth.
They are so brave showing their faces and telling their stories knowing that it will ultimately mean being punished for it. I truly wish I had the courage to do this. Wishing them both all the very best for the future!
Thank you for your comment Kendra. As we mentioned in the interview, we've pretty much lost everyone already. The possible further punishment of being kicked out of an organisation that repulses us is not that big a concern. Just my personal opinion.:)
The comment about feeling alone in your doubts, really resonated with me. I used to feel bad sitting at the hall and looking around at everyone feeling that they were perfect and would not be able to understand if I told them I was not able to live up to it all. I felt like a fraud because I hated it all so much. Thank goodness I have found this community. x
Thank you for this video. I learned so how much of this cult that I never was aware of .This cult protects the person causing the harm and puts the responsibility on the victim. It’s disgusting and soo twisted!! Thank you all for sharing this information. ❤️💕❤️
For those that stay in it just considered a test of faith and obedience. Waters receding from Babylon the Great. The affect that JW org has had on my life has proven to be very damaging- t is very hard to pick up the pieces and finding outlets or sources that will help me do so. The defining line is how JW org treats people, especially young people and those who are struggling with mental health issues.
My sister always doubted the teachings of 1914, Israel of God, Partaking at memorial, and mediatorship. It was her reasoning and studying scripture with REAL history of Jews from a Jewish standpoint. I came to accept that their teaching had flaws.Then she got disfellowshipped for telling the elders that Bible teaching was above doctrine and Unity. So she was disfellowshipped as an apostate because she was against policy. I could not agree with how she was treated, so I started doing in depth about the Eschatology of Jehovah Witnesses. Realizing they were an advent religion and the flaws of dates and history of how Russell, Rutherford treated their wives. I realized it was just another part of false religion like the Catholic Church, a hierarchy religion.
Thank you all! This information does help confirm our feelings. It's nice to have a worldwide community even though it is virtual. I hope their wives and other family members come to the same realizations soon.
I continue to be moved and untired John by your sensitive videos. John Stuart Mill 1867 “Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” Take care you three good men. ❤️
If I don't what to have nothing to do with JW and they start coming over to my house asking for me to come to the judicial hearing for me I'd say "NO" and if they keep coming over a harassing me to come to that judicial hearing this is my response "If you don't stop coming to my house telling me to come to this "judicial hearing" you'll give me no choice but to place legal action for harassing me and trespassing when i tell you not to come to my house anymore."
The problem is that we are talking about something that people have an emotional investment in, something that involves the loss of their friends and family and that is why these people are so courageous. I fear more though for the women who are discouraged from getting higher education and who are taught they are second class. How are these women going to get out - without a man’s help?
Amazing video! In any toxic situation hearing others stories is so important so that people who are still in that toxicity have a better opportunity to find someone that they relate to and can say that person is telling some of my story experience and I'm not alone.
Exactly. The video can be very impactful to those who are just religion in general people (me), ex-JWs (friends I shared with) and people who are still in who come across it who know what other risks come along with publicly speaking. In the end, most people will see when looking with a clear hear that what you both speak on here is trying to help people which is what you thought you were doing in the first place. You are just setting out to help people in a different way which speaks to being the same person you both were at your core to start.
What Dave said should be the anthem of any honest hearted and truth minded person. "When an honest person discovers he is being deceived he either stops the deception or stops being honest". Too many of these men that take on the position of elder are in it for the perceived status and don't give a damn about the flock. It is evident by their behavior. However, that selfishness can be a vulnerability.
Genuine credit to these men for speaking from their heart while revealing a corrupt and unwholesome organization. I got out in 2000, 19 years ago yet what these men say is strongly reminiscent of events back then. Elder pride and abuse appears to still be rife.
I was a baptized JW until 1981 when I turned 22 yrs old. I have had no family or friends since that time. I think the hardest part of leaving the organization is the loss of all human ties to your old community. I know there have to be millions of Ex Witnesses that feel the same way. I think it would be a fantastic idea to organize an assembly for ex jw's. I'll put the idea out here now and see how many people would be interested in doing this. I miss the fellowship and friendships but I don't miss the controlling agenda of the Watchtower Society. I've always known that it was imperfect MEN making all the rules and decisions in our lives. That has always chapped me badly. Just because we have turned or back on the cult doesn't mean we are evil, like the publications have always said we are. I'm a good person and so are you. What do you say Lloyd, should we make a meeting place to have fellowship with those who have finally opened their eyes and fled the tyranny of Watchtower? I think it's a great idea and a balm for our souls. I'm sure many people would walk away from the religion if they knew they would still be welcomed into a community of like minded good people. Small or large gatherings would be good. What do you think Ex-JW's???
Thanks for another good interview Lloyd. A great big thank you to both Steve and Dave for your bravery and honesty. Best wishes on your new journeys in life!
Thank you for this video so much, my three amigo ex-elders! I'm having to stop in the middle and comment on the part where they told how the spreadsheet revealed with different colors, which publishers were dragging down the various book study averages. Not long before I quit the meetings altogether, I had this conversation with an elder who was married to my "best friend." I remarked to him that i was really beginning to feel unwelcome at the book study, at first just seeing the young elders glancing repeatedly at me while they had a quiet conversation before or after the book study. Then being outright told that I should attend a different location rather than the KH. It was a strong impression that the main thing they were worried about was the publishers with low hours were dragging down the average in the group. So, I told my friend's husband how I was feeling and asked him, Is it really all about the numbers rather than concern for the congregation? He said No - but not convincing in the least. After that the disapproval as i walked into the book study was so obvious. Even though i had injured my knees and walking was difficult, the service time I was claiming for writing letters and incidental witnessing was not enough. You get two opposite messages at the KH - the first one is, don't miss meetings, whatever else is going on with you. The second one is, don't be coming to our book study if your hours are low because it's all about the numbers and you better believe it.
Yes it is all about the numbers! In many decades of 'preaching' i never thought to cheat, aka add phony hours. But toward the end I realized a heck of a lot do! One pioneer had an Awake in the back window of her car ........and she counted all those hrs! Many just out & out lied! One sister who was in a few Dramas even, lied about everything ..all those bible studies ...everything!
All I have to say is thank you! and where were you 20 years ago? To know that I am not alone and that my experiences within this region were not the exception but the rule, to affirm my decision to leave was based on a clear moral guideline followed by many and not my own selfishness. Makes me happier than I have been in years. I appreciate that you do not speak belittling of these people but seek to educate. I hope that you continue to shine the light on a closed, insular, negative and misleading organization.
Lloyd - a hugely sensitively handled conversation with two ex-elders who have only recently come to know TTATT. These two men proved themselves to be perceptive, humble and empathic in their approach to their roles as elders - I'm so glad tney have found a way through JW.org's FOG (Fear, Obligation and Guilt) rather than remain elders in order to please fellow men. Oh, and bravo for the extraordinarily thoughtful way you encouraged Dave to take further the disturbing information local elders had about a "brother" of concern and the branch's predictably very narrow view of who should be warned. Dave showed exceptional resonsivity to your urging him to go to the authorities. And well done that the closing statements confirmed he had now done so.
The bravery and honesty shown in this video is so refreshing. And I find, as others, that I am not alone. I had always said, while a JW , the truth should be able to stand up to scrutiny and hold its own. Why fear apostates? Research? Thank you. Thank you for validating.
Thank you for this interview, thank you elders for your stories, your courage and above all for your honesty. They have shown a true Christian spirit by making this report to help hundreds of brothers trapped there.
Yeah The royal commission really cemented it for me. I also watched for the reason that elder did even though I was wrongly disfellowshipped. Although I have always questioned everything and been open to discussion you still don’t realise just how bad it is as you initially think you have choice. The courage of my son to dig into all of this, in spite of the terror it invokes due to the brainwashing, was also very instrumental in me seeing things from many other angles which fortunately I was open to. I am very angry that I put my children through this horrible religion as it still affects them and I hope that will go in time.
Time does do wonders. And kudos to both you and your son! It takes a while for it to sink in that this organisation has caused such incredible amounts of pain and suffering on countless lives. Interesting to hear that you were wrongly dfd too - not uncommon though. I was brought before a JC 3 weeks after stepping down as an elder because my doubts had gone "too far" . Decision was to df but I appealed and got it overturned. Afterwards when I questioned why the "wrong decision" had been made to df, I was told by the other elders that the holy spirit had corrected it with the appeal. Oh dear....the mental gymnastics these people will go too....
Thanks so much Steve and David for sharing your amazing stories! Stay strong! 👊💪👍 Elders are really "company men" who act as human resource agents for the Watchtower organization. Remember, human resource agents act only in the best interests of the company. Elders search out any who are not loyal to the company, and those who are not actively supporting the policies and mission; as well as, individuals who are not reaching established goals within the corporation. All of these individuals threaten the profitability and outward reputation of of the company, and may affect others in the organization. When individuals inside of the organization/corporation have learned of hypocritical actions, deceitful policies, or lies regarding the actions of representatives of corporation, departments or heads of the corporation (Governing Body) and begin exposing these... Elders (human resource agents of the Watchtower ) are assigned to eliminate or lessen the effects of "whistle blowers" by labeling them "apostates". Once they identify an individual as a "whistle blower" they follow well established company rules and actively pursue any threat that may expose secretive practices, hypocrisy, or harmful or illegal actions that may impact company's profitability. Elders follow corporation guidelines set forth in the exclusive manual for elders, entitled: "Shepherd the Flock of God" published by the WTBTS. 1. To become informed as to the level of knowledge and information a potential whistle blower possesses. 2. Have a formal meeting (Judicial Committee hearing) with them to ascertain the level of dissent or waning support for the organization and threat they pose to the corporation. 3. Formally put the whistle blower on notice their actions constitute disloyalty to the corporation and they will be "fired" from the company losing all benefits and any ties to other members of the corporation. 4. During a congregation meeting ( regularly scheduled corporation workshop) announce the "firing" of those who have failed to follow corporate rules.
Thanks John and the elders for the information is overwhelming and scary how the JW are doing, i woke up 3 yrs ago i'm happy and my depression goes away
I wonder how many witnesses are questioning and wondering Afraid to ask ANY questions about anything because immediately they will be labeled as troublemakers and elders will tell thier wives, then the wife in car groups tell others (normally not on a Wednesday or Saturday )but the day's only they are together ,from there the statement's are made in a way that is not out right but twisted so it puts questions in the minds of others about the person in question. Nothing more then a gossiping session.
As the ex-elders said; thanks for having such a platform Lloyd Evans, it most certainly does help in not feeling alone in all this. Whether you're newly awakened or left almost 20 years ago. Thank You.
As always Lloyd, Another superb video and much respect to Dave and Steve. Here is a quick one for you all. I moved into a new congregation as an elder and was told about all ongoing matters. One being about a man/brother that had serious history. Some twenty odd years previously he had murdered his girlfriend and served twenty years in a high security prison. I asked as to what knowledge the congregation and especially sisters had of this and was told in no uncertain terms that they must and will never know. Considering the back ground and the body having full knowledge of his past I was able to go home and like Dave warn my wife and daughters about this guy but could not talk about it to others. Within a week I saw him out in a car with a single sister on the ministry. I immediately called an elders meeting and was stunned to find out that it was one of the elders that had asked the sister to pick him up as he did not have a car. I put a stop to this right away using a bit of simple common sense. Obviously, I could go on more about this but the mind boggles as to the potential issues that are knowingly allowed to continue abuse wise and other.
Wow - that's incredible. Good on you for doing what was right though - would love to know more about the kickback you received from the rest of the body. Glad you got out and are free.
You know it was good to see Dave and Steve haven't had a shave,like so many others who wake up don't shave after all those years of having to be ' prim & proper ' to spread the 'good news '. Let yourself go ,relax and wear tight pants. Oh and have a few if not many beers..Great video Lloyd as always.
I recall pressure to reach out further. One elder from my original congregation told me, "30 is coming up pretty quick," in other words, it would be ideal for me to be an elder by age 30. My father at one point used the phrase, "If you become an elder." My highest point in the organization was as a ministerial servant at the age of 19, but there always seemed to be pressure to reach out further because you were nobody if you weren't a servant, an elder, or a circuit overseer.
Well done! Thank you, guys! About 4 years ago there was an elder in the Pacific Northwest of the US that attended his son's wedding that was not held in a church so his JW parents could attend. The son had been baptized as a youngster, but faded decades before. Upon returning to his hometown, the elder was removed for attending his faded son's wedding. Corporate Policy.
Bravo gentlemen, enjoyed your honesty and bravery in the face of such cruelty you will have to face from your so called friends re possible disfellowshipping sometime in the future. Thank you for being your true selves and sharing with us all. We would love to have an episode 3 and hear more from you all again, if that is possible Cedars.
Lloyd one small request. In the future should you interview Dave would you be so kind as to ask him to say "Spookey" and of course "Crickey". Just a little levity...Don't judge and please No Shunning. Best, The Professor
I just wanted to leave a comment here even though this video is several years old the experiences and the truths that are brought out in it are very very relevant for today. So I thought it deserved a fresh comment and a thank you!
Wow, Dave at 56 minute Mark "An honest man who finds out he is being deceived, either stops being deceived or stops being honest" I think cuts thru all the b.s. and gets to the heart of the matter! Thanks Lloyd excellent as always 👏👍
Excellent quote.
Glad you and so many appreciated that quote. As you say, it's such a simple way to cut through bs.
@@davidschmid5848 I want to say Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your courage and bravery. It is so tough to stand up and be a man of honesty and integrity, and despite all the consequences, you took the high road of being true to your principles. I respect you so much. I know other elders who know what goes on in the elders meetings, judicial meetings, elders schools and etc they were such solid men they could not be part of this utter nonsense. David, I am saddened by your family situation and I pray that it will get better. How many Children do you have? The moment I realized I could not remain in the organization, I feared the loss of my wife of 28 years and my wonderful daughter. My wife knew if I was a danger to her and my daughters relationship with Jehovah the elders and the congregation would support her decision to separate from me. It brings me so much relief to hear men like the 2 of you make statements like "as elders we didn't have the necessary skills to assist in helping solve marital problems". Sometimes as I tried to assist people who came to us with family and marital problems, and we would do research and attempt to offer help them, I felt like I had no qualifications to help the sheep. And the normal results proved my feelings were correct. How many of the governing body have children or deal with the daily pressures of life in the real world? How can they write articles on how to successfully cope with problems families deal with daily? I was on a judicial commitee as a greenhorn elder with 2 elders who had maybe 8 years each experience. This was in the mid 90s we disfellowshipped a young man who had terrible mental illness, all 3 of us knew nothing about mental illness or how to deal with it. I think of what we did often. This is a burden alot of us former elders bear. Your story gave me solace to realize there are many of us who were good honest men doing the best we could with the tools we were given. But in the end we were honest to realize as sincere as we were, we were misled. Thank you David.
@@davidschmid5848 you definitely are skilled with words but, more apparent, is your heart. You seem extremely sincere and genuinely concerned with the well-being of others. Your children will learn so much from your example!
@@corrinarottum6547 Just saw this comment of yours. Thank you so much - that's incredibly kind of you! I hope you're right re my kids, that's my hope too. All the best to you, and thanks again.
As a faded ex elder, I think being an elder for two years hugely sped up my exit. We saw behind the curtain.
We saw, and we didn't like what we saw! Agreed.
What did you see !
@@mthokozisilanga4497 wow !! I'm sorry 😔 and I'm sure Jehovah is not at fault for what ever malicious things men are responsible of unjustified unloving acts of unkind Ness being comitted .
Jimmy Rodas Molestina Jehovah is not a fault, it’s Satan’s doing, a d the blind faith of imperfect congregation members not listening to Jesus but to men. If they cried over financial loss it’s their fault for not listening to jesus and following men, the g b are the worst and I’ll never understand why would anyone worship these loonies when we have Jesus . Let them Nash their teeth for not obeying
@@RitaMalikfour wicked men would introduce themselves into the congregation s
So encouraging to see elders not only waking up but walking out, thank you all for sharing this, much appreciated 💛
Thank you Vicky!
Lloyd, thank you for helping Steve and Dave share their stories. Your interviews are so vital to those of us waking up to realize we're not crazy and we're not alone. Keep up the great work. You're truly making a positive difference in the world.
We are so grateful that Lloyd gave us this platform. His work is of incredible value and high standard!
David Schmid very good Interviews. Many thanks. İt's so important. I hope you didn't get any problems from other congregation members for talking in this Interview?
I left 15 years ago and these videos are helping me very much. Thank you.
At the time mark 39:40
Thank you for elaborating on this. I was df'd and called my elder father at the time. I was about to commit suicide and after I told him I needed help, he said, "You aren't welcome here anymore." and hung up the phone. I made it. Thanks to "worldly people." I can't forget that it was the time he showed his true colours. I'm glad I got away.
Lucas …. how disloyal to his own child! So sorry you suffered even more pain caused by watchtower. Hope things are much better now ….never give-up!
I know exactly what you went through. I'm glad you're OK with the help of real friends.
I’m glad you survived that time.
Thank Goodness you got thru it which validates you Need No institutionalize Religion for guidance during dire moments but You can rely on Yourself...kudos to you my Friend!!!! Bless You.
@@juehlwillis4699 Thank you!
I'm 30yrs plus away from the Org and still can't reveal my identity for fear of further punishment. I've got a great deal of respect for Steve and David for taking a risk in appearing within the video. It's a BIG deal.
Thanks to both for sharing their story and insight.
As always, great video!
It's the same with me. My elderly JW mother doesn't shun me and I can't risk putting her in a situation where she feels she's got no choice but to cut ties with me.
Totally understand. I'm shunned by everyone except my eldest sister who keeps a small window of access open. If I move one-inch further in my voicing against the Org i risk losing that final connection.
My mother did demonstrate love and acceptance of me up until her death, much against this advice of my CO older brother.
Pleased you still have a connection with your mother. It's a key relationship; one that cannot be replaced, and something to cherish. Given her circumstance, she really is demonstrating how much she loves you.
@@orpheusuk8762 My father continued as an elder even after I was disfellowshipped right up until his death. I think at the time shunning your immediate family member was considered a matter of conscience and neither one of my parents obviously never took "the new light" as a rule, but as a suggestion. My brother didn't shun me for years either, not until he married a very zealous "sister" who couldn't accept him having any kind of relationship with me. She also shunned my children even though their father was a JW in good standing and they went to all the meetings and field service.
Growing up I always felt the love of my parents was conditional, but they certainly proved me wrong. For that I really am grateful. I've had wonderful parents who have always given me their support no matter what.
My sympathies with you for having to go through that for so long - I can't begin to imagine how hard that must be.
I can relate! Gotta be careful not to lose a very important relationship by being vocal about what I have discovered. People wake up in their own time. Really hard not to say anything, but am very sure it would ruin our relationship.
Wow. They are so courageous, self-reflected and well spoken. All the best to these two outstanding gentlemen. I hope both of you are doing alright and find a way to make peace with lost friends and family. ❤
Thank you Nati! All the best to you too.
@@davidschmid5848 I was very touched by your honesty and integrity. I could see that it was a very difficult story for you to tell. I hope that 6 months further on down the track you are going from strength to strength.
I'm Stevens cousin, I started fading about 5 years ago and finally disassociated in November of 2017. I'm so proud of Steven for doing this. Steve if your reading this I'd love to get in touch and be a support for you if I can during this time.
Hey Azjahly. Id love to get together soon to catch up. Send me a text, Myles has my number.
@@C0262931 i JUST stumbled over this video and was also wondering how you are getting on now that some time has past? Ex JW (25 yrs physically and all 47 mentally)
I was in the congregation with and a good friend of this wonderful guy. I appreciate having coming across this video and having seen you in this. I left a while back and you are not alone my friend.
Very illuminating, this explains why a publisher's "time" is such a big deal. It's so corporate, so cold, not at all spiritual. Thank you for getting these stories out there. This is how a Theocracy works.
As people who are privileged to be friends of David, we can tell you that he is one of the most honest, genuine and loving men we know. So proud to see him appear on this video!
Am so glad he has friends to support him...not everyone will abandon him!
Thank you Uncle Sacha!:) And I thank you and Sherrie for your interview (and Uncle Ben's) for giving me the courage to go public. I value and treasure our friendship more than I can express in words.
@@davidschmid5848you have been blessed even though as your world is rocking from side to side sometimes, you may not feel it. It can be a huge shock when we realise how brainwashed with lies and controlled we were. As for me, once the shock wore off, I started wondering what the real truth is then, and I pray that you won't give up on God also. Many ex JW's throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Both these men, their love is evident, may Jehovah bless and guide them..
@@davidschmid5848 your spirituality more than ever means something to Jehovah, please check out Robert King E.Watchman, an anointed brother, who explains why this is unfolding right now, the stumbling we are seeing is prophetic, watchtowers down fall her judgement is imminent..Stumbled ones serve a huge purpose, check out the book of Daniel, they are stumbled for a whitening and refining to take place, Watchtower has served her purpose, we are about to enter the next phase, of Biblical prophesy, such exciting Times to be living in, especially if we are "awake"..Jah Bless my dear brother..❤
Last year this video played a big role in my awakening process, and it was key for me to step down as an Elder.
What happened in our congregation was that the Branch office (Australasia) directed the body of Elders to remain silent in a matter that put at risk the physical health of the congregation members. I was deeply disturbed so I didn't care about the direction and prioritized the health and wellbeing of my brothers and sisters, especially of the elderly (yet the other 11 Elders in the body went along with what they were told, despite not being happy with it).
Looking back I'm so glad I did what was right. As Dave quoted at 55:44, I decided to stop being deceived and remain honest.
Thank you, Lloyd, Dave and Steveo for this video!
PS: as an interesting note. This was the very first 'apostate' video I watched on TH-cam. Why did I choose this one and not others? because the guys in the video were shaved and "looked like JWs". What is crazy to me is that even as an Elder I was always ok with beards and saw no bible evidence to enforce shaving... well, guess who has a beard now 🤣
They are being shunned and they aren’t even disfellowshipped. I know how it feels. I’m not disfellowshipped either. My wife and I just faded away recently. About a week or two ago, I woke up to find that every single brother from the congregation had unfriended me on facebook. My guess is they are “showing me” love and with such loving shunning I’ll “come back to Jehovah”.
@Chiafade now Thanks for the laugh.
Efrain Rivera Junior me and my husband did the same too but I’m unfriend all my friend in Facebook I dicide that I’m not let them to shunning me I shun them already I don’t need those tipe of friends . I don’t need them in my life and my mom told me that she is going to reject me so I let her know that is something happens to her she need to ask for help she need to go to congregation for help because is your are going to sunning me because im thinking different just to let you know that you are not my mother anymore. For that reason I’m not going to help you with anything. I’m not going to be there only when you need or when is conveniente to the congregation they need to pay for your bill and help you with your health . It this organization teach you to reject me been your daughter. I’m learning to reject you because your cult teachings . So she finally decide not to shunning me . We need to stay strong not emotionally I know it can be hard and difficult but I’m not let them to have the power over me and my family .
Are you in the Spanish congregation ?
@@ThePhoenixTube007 - My first congregation in Puerto Rico was Spanish. Then I moved to help in the English Congregation. My last congregation was a Spanish Congregation in Texas.
Been there ! That is the mind blowing part to me. To preach love and be Christian's above reproach...many people you considered your friends....in some cases for many years or your whole life, are able to drop you like they never knew you. That opened my eyes to the fact that they weren't true friends. That most relationships are transactional and conditional at best.
I am so grateful to you Lloyd for all you have done and continue to do to help people get out of this abusive cult. Thank you to the guests on the panel for your bravery, which should never be under estimated. Glad that the fiasco that was the Royal Commission is waking people up.
I so agree...these gentlemen are extremely gracious, and kind. All three of you gentlemen are so courageous...I know the hurt and the feelings of loss...please know that you are not alone...also Im very grateful for you coming forward. I spent 30 years as a practicing JW, feeling deep down inside that something just wasn't right with this religion, even as young girl. You are leading the way for so many to fade away...just want you to know I so appreciate all you are sacrificing for folks like me....
I honestly don't know how anyone with a decent level of inner humanity and compassion could watch the ARC and not wake up. But indoctrination has such a strong hold on some people's minds!
There was a pioneer sister who told that after watching the ARC she felt even greater love for the GB. She sung Jackson’s praises about how calm he remained under questioning and how mild his replies. However...this woman also displayed Narcissistic Personality Disorder with a deep persecution complex. I guess birds of a feather flock together. When they see those traits in others they admire that person because of the strong resemblance in themselves.
@@marafayde1285 Wow, that's really something. It makes me sad, because there are honest hearted people out there who really want it to be true. They want to think the best, they want to do the right things, they want to obey, etc. The indoctrination runs deep. Hopefully she'll realize at some point what she's actually dealing with. And you are right, if she's got those mental issues, then the GB are going to seem alright to her.
It’s good to have elders to flee from the organization. They are very prominent and affluent oak in the religion
The rules they have are horrible. This isn't from God, this isn't even really human anymore. They are dehumanizing people.
Elise Nieuwe it’s as they’d say “satan’s system.” Talk about projection.
Hi Elise, I know it's two years ago that you said this, but it truly resonated with me, I wholeheartedly agree. They allow no place for simply being a human being who makes mistakes, Im referring to their judicial system and also all the rules we have. I left 6 months ago and have been found and brought to life in Jesus Christ, I hope you have been too. Thanks for your comment.
Whenever I hear of anyone appointed getting out, it gives me such hope. My heart goes out to anyone in the position to choose between expressing their truth or losing their spouse and damaging their immediate family unit. Great interviews, guys!
Thank you Cass. Yes it's the hardest decision I've ever faced personally, but one that had to be made for so many reasons, first and foremost to give my kids an option at the earliest possible time.
@@davidschmid5848 Your courage is outstanding. Congrats.
Once you look behind the curtain you find the truth. Thanks for sharing your story Dave and Steve.
It was our pleasure, honestly.
Every time you upload a new video my day gets better. Living my best FREE life
Thank you so much for bringing these issues to light, I know I'm probably in the minority on the channel but I've never been a JW. I was in a pretty oppressive Lutheran church growing up and I've been very interested in learning about how religion affects people since becoming agnostic. I think its so important to have platforms to critique these institutions and I think you're doing great work!
This platform is for Active& Inactive JW's and all who have been apart of any oppressive religion so you are more than welcome because this serves as a warning to all thinking about joining the JW's.Thanks for your comment about your religion.As JW's we were forbidden to learn anything worthwhile about other religions.
You're so right and us ex jw's love it when outsiders take an interest. Welcome!!
I've been part of JW in my youth and leaved when 13. About two years now that I dived into knowing more about what was this "religion" I grew up into. Oh my, I learned so much. And I didn't kept my learning to JW only. I became more interested as a whole in religions/cults overall (Mormons, Scientology, Adventists, Islam, etc.). What they are all about, what are their beliefs and mostly... how these beliefs affects their followers life be it positively or negatively. I'm also curious in understanding how each different religion members can be convinced to be in the only one "Truth". When you have hundreds of very different religions claiming to detain the truth, it is clear to me that there must be some "lies" hidden there. As the host said: Everyone should not be ashamed an ounced to look what the critics arguments are against your religion. If your religion tries to discourage you or making you feel guilty to search on your religion; it should ring some bells! All this to say that I can understand were you are coming from and glad to see that you have some interest in learning about jehovah witnesses. I guess you are well inform now to not blindly fall in their beliefs and maybe enough informed to challenge their "truth" if you ever happen to encounter one's of JW.
Thank you Lloyd for your continuing work. Thank your guests for telling their stories. I spent years POMI and very depressed and guilt ridden. I know there are people out there you all are helping.
Hollar Girl
Are you still in? Here’s a virtual hug 🤗
Katcedes glad you are finally awake! Welcome to consciousness! Welcome to freedom!
I've never been a JW, but I always feel fascinated to learn more about the way they think and act. I'm used to see JWs in my area and I can't help but to feel pity for them. Last time I was talking to one of them he was speechless when I told him that if he doesn't accept all other beliefs, he would understand that an outsider isn't going to accept his belief, just because a bunch of guys in New York say so.
Elders - Compartmentalising for Watchtower since 1938...
Really enjoying the honesty and appreciate your personal integrity. Your compassionate nature will be remembered and hopefully still help others in time.
Stephen - your friend made me think of prob my favourite quote, which helps me appreciate what matters after the disappointment of not fitting in with the structure:
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
- Marcus Aurelius -
Aurelius sure did have some gems!
Phenomenal interview. Sometimes I wonder how some elders can live with themselves with the decisions that they make on a regular basis.
It's a battle while in, and it can eat you up when you leave. I've tried to "atone" for some of my actions - even going back on old rv's to explain the truth about the truth, and apologising to some who I had at one time shunned. Learning to forgive yourself is also an important part. We were all victims of very skilled mind controllers.
@@davidschmid5848 You are a quality individual. Very impressive.
Excellent point made by David at the end about how much time & research goes into purchasing an electronic product like an iPhone or a New Car of years in buying the Right house but I spent 6 months studying the ' Truth that leads to Eternal Life' ..Small Blue book in 1978 & then gave my Whole life & gave up my family to become a baptisedJW!! When I look back now it was sheer madness as I was so convinced it was the 'TRUTH'
So true, and I feel for you. And that's the value of developing critical thinking and scepticism. The more a belief demands of you, the more it should be scrutinised.
@@davidschmid5848 thank you for your comments
@@davidschmid5848 thank you for your comments David
Great interview. Reminds me when my father was "reaching out" he was told he wasn't qualified because the house was a bit messy... Three young children in a house is hard to keep tidy... Yet an elder in the next Cong had a huge mess of a house... It's all about certain characteristic of each body
I've learned Shelly . Never to reach out to another man !!! Only reach out to the almighty Jehovah God !! And vengeance belongs to him !!
Wow, I loved this. And I recognise how it's important that people know we did not 'fall away' we stepped away, with deliberate movement. Heart goes out to two truly decent honest men and also gives me hope that more will see TTATT. My own marriage fell apart when I stepped away and it was a truly awful time, but with 12 years hindsight I can say it was the best thing for all of us. He is now happily remarried to a good JW, and I'm 10 years of wedded bliss to a critical thinking atheist. Both of my kids are out and free.
Love your comment about a deliberate stepping away. Yes we have left for good reasons. To stay, we would've had to ignore what we knew was wrong = not an option. Glad that you're happy and free now!
My heart goes out to those that have lost so much in so many ways just for questioning the meaning of TRUTH.
Thank you for your honesty, kindness and TRUTH.
I wish you nothing but love on your journey forward.
Thank you!
Thanks for being candid, honest and brave. All the very best!
Thank you Brad
Lloyd I can’t tell you how much I needed this this morning. Very helpful thanks a lot guys.
Proper food at the proper time.
@@Golfpill Nice... 😀
Trust the Good lord, who describe himself in John 10. He's with you, and this parallel family out of the falling tower.
Awesome video. I left in 1997 . I've experienced grilling by elders when I brought to their attention to the abuse of my children. I was treated badly for rattling on my husband. I was treated as if disfellowshiped. It was terrible. So much hubris and protection of abusers is a travesty.
Elder filth had no business! grilling you.
😢
I’m so sorry
What could be better on a wet cold afternoon than listening to another interview with 2 more elders that have woken up & left, despite family problems to over come. It gladdens my heart becasue it's sending a very clear message to the congregation's that something is very wrong. The org. is certainly loosing many sincere people with a conscience. Best wishes to Steve & Dave.
Thank you Robyn. Your kind words are much appreciated
I keep hearing these cases of people who are born into a controlling religion, even multi-generational, achieve some position of authority and respect within the organization, but then "wake up" and leave. This is *very* encouraging and heartening. These people know the possible penalties for openly and publicly leaving instead of quietly "fading", but they do it anyway, and serve as examples and inspiration for others who are fearful. Hearing Dave tell unknown others, "We are here for you", I have to say back, Dave and Steve, we are here for you, too. Speaking as someone who was never part of the JWs, but who recognizes the courage and honesty you demonstrate in your coming out, I have to tell you that you are not alone. If you end up being forced to leave behind everyone you really knew, all your friends and family, know that there are many others, ex-members or not, who appreciate and welcome you. The organization can take away your relationships with everyone still part of it, but they cannot isolate you from the overwhelming majority of the world who are not. We value you as human beings, not as members of one or another group, and independently of how many things on which we agree or disagree with you. I hope that more and more, those still in the organization refuse to shun when told to, and that many of them realize the immorality of the whole situation and also leave. Lloyd, Telltale, and others have increasingly convinced me of the evil of the practice of shunning, which I'd formerly considered innocuous, and a matter of individual choice. I thank them for that (always good to be corrected when wrong), as well as for providing platforms for brave people who defy the Governing Board and their types everywhere.
Thank you Bruce - that's a beautiful message and very much appreciated!
Royal Commission was a wake up for me as well.
Me too.
N P
Same here.
In hindsight I am SO GRATEFUL that I had nothing else to listen to that particular day. It was the first of many cracks. Outcome= freedom.
@@davidschmid5848 I was studying, and even defended the org, but after the ARC I could no longer continue, it disturbed me to say the least.
That started the whole wake up process for me too... 🤔
What a brave man, wish u all the strenght u need.
What an shokking information.
Respect for u all.❤
Been inactive for 15 months. Trying to convince my PIMI wife that im being shunned due to "spiritual weakness" is like trying to convince a witness that 607BCE isnt real.
My wife is inactive because of medical issues.
But she dose the meanings on the phone and internet.
I am an Agnostic, and wish my wife would see that JW is a cult.
Forgive my ignorance, what is pimi
@@amandahuginkiss4098 oh ok thanks in that case I am POMO 😁
@@albertofernandez9798 physically in the organisation mentally out. Not a nice place to be
@@heatheradams8946 Thumbs up to POMO! Be safe! Live your best life...without them.
Wow, two very brave men. Massive respect. Thanks for sharing your experiences, guys. It’s always good to hear things from another perspective. Thanks Lloyd, as always
Great job guys. All the very best for the future Steve and Dave. Keep your feet on the ground as you get used to the real world...
We're trying. :) Thanks!
@@davidschmid5848 - I left the 'truth' 28 yrs ago after being brought up as a 3rd generation JW and it probably took me ten yrs to feel normal in the world but even now I still feel the effects... hence the reason I enjoy watching Lloyd so much... it's like therapy. 😀
Thank you Lloyd and those who have woken up. Keep up the good work
We are returning from a road trip to GA and we have enjoyed listening to John Cedars on our road trip. Such salient topics! I was a deacon for years ( ie the Bible Students form of Ministerial Servant). It was almost expected for any young Bible Students men to eventually become elders. But unlike JWs BS men were elected by each ecclesia individually. When it came “time” for me to be nominated all the “qualified “ young men in our congregation were nominated and elected except for me! I was the only one with a college education and it was held against me. I was considered a know it all upstart by the older elders and a bit too much of a rebel for the position, even by my father! I was utterly and totally humiliated. I never felt so utterly disappointed, rejected, and I felt this all consuming wave of utter embarrassment I never felt to that time, or anytime since that time. That night I was inconsolable and I felt like I had been completely stomped on. My wife tried hard to tell me I’ll look back at that incident and be glad that I wasn’t made an elder. It took a while but she was completely correct!!! It would have made nearly impossible for me to leave the Bible Students had I been made an elder. Sometimes what we are told is best for us, or what we want most for ourselves is actually the worst thing for us. I am much much happier now with my freedom! My dear wife was right and I was wrong but couldn’t see it at the time.
Man.. you are so right... the things we want to have it being inside is the worst thing we ever choose for our lives...!
thx for info. I left also after 11 years of pioneering and saw the elders hide truth to their congregation about me rather than they being found out to be incapable of handling a problem. I found them very haughty, and certainly inadequate for the situation. I was in a very violent marriage and they said I had to be submissive and must have caused the violence. !!! i remember being so horrified that i could have gone to these for help when i so badly needed help. i feel blessed that this woke me up and i left the marriage and the religion love life now
Thanks for sharing ur story,i just very new but one day i was in the meeting as a guest i so horrific that have to stay in un happy married i strongly against that teaching,take care 🙏🙏 hope u r doing well as built ur new life n enjoy
Tremendously brave and honest men. Thank you for sharing.
Appreciate you brothers for your honesty and bravery. I feel only honest hearted and courageous people will come out of this organization. Welcome to your freedom and I wish you all the best. (John 8:32) Thank you Lloyd once again for making these interviews.
A love of truth definitely aids the exit. Thanks for your message Sam!
I’ve been in their shoes. Very brave. I struggled for so long after being involved in a case of abuse. It’s the same story time and time again. There is human error and there is systemic dysfunction. They’re brave for doing this. Thank you Loyd for another great interview. I might be ready to do mine :) Elder for 5 years. Bethelite for 5. Regular pioneer for 12. Got out of school at 15. GED. My story is a bit crazy
Would love to hear more. When you're ready. 🙂
Both of my uncles are elders and my mother is a devout JW. I have been praying that something can jolt them into a reasonable and logical state of thinking and realization. I’m glad all three of you gentlemen saw through it all.
The Australian Royal Commission jolted me...even thought I had already left! And Matt 24! The JW have it drilled into their heads that there HAS to be a one true religion no matter what. And this religion looks and acts like the closest thing to the true religion. They reason that it's not perfect because men are not perfect. They rely on the cherry picked scripture in Proverbs about light getting brighter so are ok with mistakes and changes...when really that whole chapter is talking about the path of the righteous getting brighter or more visible VS the unrighteous because of their conduct! And that Jesus gives good instruction and would NEVER let his people stumble! They just wait on Jehovah. They completely ignore Jesus warnings at Matt 24 where he warns to look out that you are not mislead...that even the chosen ones could be mislead! That really struck me! We always used Matt 24 to prove we were in the last days when Jesus was listing the signs but never really gave attention to that first one! To look out that you are not mislead! And that the chosen ones could be mislead? That's huge! And when it comes to the Faithful and discreet slave...they use that to prove there should be a Governing body. Well Jesus warned even they could be thrown in with the hypocrites! How would they know? They are not even allowed to "look out" or " watch out". Not even allowed to question! To obey " even if it doesnt seem sound from a human standpoint!". I am hoping to wake up my family with Matt 24 . And where the bible speaks about Satan disguising himself as an angel of light. The JW always point out how it's easy to identify false religion. But if Satan can disguise himself as an " angel of light" what would that look like and how would you protect yourself if even the chosen ones could be mislead? How would you know? It takes going beyond those who could be deceiving them and making sure! They are scared into thinking it's not ok to go beyond Watchtower but Jesus warns them to!
What do you tell a JW when they say faith without works is dead? They are clearly a works based faith. If you find salvation through works, what was the point of Christ spilling his blood for our salvation and Paul telling us that we are saved by faith alone, not works, lest any man should boast?
@@BoBo-wi2db first of all works naturally come with faith...otherwise it's not real. I think that was the point. When I was a JW the " works" was forced! Not in my heart! And works supporting men who are being thrown in with the hypocrites do not count! You are right! What was the purpose of Jesus buying our sins? He did not do that for nothing!
Mama Bear Exactly. I was pretty much forced to go from ages 12-16, as was my brother and sister. My brother and I were taken out of my Methodist church and it devastated me. So I naturally scrutinized everything about that organization. Even as a child I had critical thinking skills. I always asked why do they have to keep up with your field service hours? I agree that works come with faith just as a result of faith and live. Never once did any elder or brother try to save anyone by the gospel. They only emphasized going door to door. My brother was baptized at age 16 and left at age 18, and my mother had to shun him, even though he lived at home. This is not a religion. It’s an authoritative group of men who control what people think and believe. My heart goes out to the people who can’t see through it. I want so badly to rescue my mother and sister. Say a prayer for them if you would. ❤️🙏
@@BoBo-wi2db I sure will!!! 🙏💗💗💗
Hi Lloyd, in case you read this, please send my regards and appreciation to Steve. We were in the same congregation back in 2013. I wasn't there for long and we didn't exchange paths that much (different service groups in quite a large congregation) but I do remember him (and his wife) as he was probably the youngest elder in the body. I'm glad he has woken up and that it has not completely broken his marriage. I was single back then but married now and I know how difficult it can be for the believing spouse to adapt to a new situation they didn't ask for. Thanks for sharing your story, Steve.
Hey WT Studies...I'm super curious who you are. Any clues you wish to share?
Excellent, as usual. Having been an elder for two decades I can concur to their feelings.
I resigned myself from being an elder to take better care of my five kids, to have more time to turn them into better Jehovahs Witnesses. The pressure to perform had become unbearable. I was more than fully in. One year and an half later the whole family faded. It was what happened after resigning that woke us up.
Thank you for sharing all these videos.
So good to hear that you all woke up and got out! That's awesome!
I find it fascinating that no matter where in the world someone may live, their experiences in the org are so similar to one another, and when you think about it, it becomes a testament for the governing body as it proves just how vast and powerful their control really is. Which also proves that this is simply a man made organization run by a group of misogynistic, egotistical, power tripping, evil men. Great video yet again, Lloyd. Thank you so much for all that you do!
Great point Karen! Yes the leaders of this religion are master manipulators - even with differing customs and traditions of various countries.
I decided to Disassociate instead of Fading ... I was fortunate my parents didn't Shun me... I told them I left a Man Made Religion (Cult) ... but I didn't leave God n Jesus Christ...it's hard for a JW to separate the "GB" from God... today they are still in the ORG...We respect each other's wishes...🤗
@@amandahuginkiss4098 Totally agree with that process you described. For me, when I had the realisation that I only believed in JW's because of how I was raised, the logical succession was that the same was true for my belief in the Bible and God. Throw in the geographical accident of what religion you're taught as a child, and in depth research becomes a must! Non Stamp is brilliant, as is Theramin Trees, and anything Matt Dilahunty does!
Great interview. It's great to see more good men stand up for what is right. I know it's hard and scary but, you guys have done the right thing. If you need to chat with someone else that's going through this process, please contact me.
Thanks Michael. Really enjoyed your perspectives in Part 1!
The ending made my day... We need more elders who are waking up to do this!!!
Thank you - yes it definitely feels great knowing that information is in the hands of the professionals
These are your best videos Lloyd!!! These are the type of videos that help active JWs wake up, realize that they are not alone, that elders are coming out, and that their experiences are shared among all JWs! Your other videos on JW doctrinal issues serve to keep people from returning to the cult, in my opinion. All of your material is wonderful and useful.
I am so proud of both of these men for taking a courageous moral stand to leave the WT!! Wonderful interview and I am looking forward to seeing both of them continue to grow outside of the cult!! Thanks for another great interview Lloyd!
Thank you Charmaine!
Thank you so so so very much for your bravery! I have witnessed first hand elders struggling with their moral compass! Brought them to tears but their hands were tied with " direction from headquarters" and " putting the congregation first". I cringe anytime I hear someone may face a judicial hearing. I really feel like no one owes the organization anything! I went through the whole disfellowshipping, get reinstated scene. I was still ostracized for years by many! My children as well by people I knew my whole life that didn't have a clue what was going on! When I left I felt like I didnt owe them ANYTHING! I was not bound by those man made rules! No letter...nothing. All my family and friends from the org shun me for leaving my own way....that's on them to treat me like I'm DF'd.
When I was called to appear for a "meeting" with the elders, I politely declined and said I did not wish to come, that I had been trying to leave a while now.
Go ahead, much to win.
38:00 - J-Dub’s on medication? I’ve NEVER heard about that before. Sarcasm aside, one of the first thing my mother did after she woke up just recently, was to drop her antidepressants.
Interesting, when i got out of the borg was able to give up antidepressants after being on them for 20 years. I have often wonder why, i think it was my subconscious battle with cognitive dissonance and living in an environment of never being good enough.
@@sollasollew3208 - You could go to my mother's congregation and randomly ask any brother or sister for an antidepressant, and they would look at you and say: "Which one do you want and what dosage?"
@@EfrainRiveraJunior obviously depression is a major issue for first world countries but from my observations there seems to be a concentration of depression suffers among JWs. I'm fascinated in knowing why the dynamics of the JW structure feeds the depressive mind. It would make an excellent thesis study for a phycology student as there is strong evidence to support a hot spot per population for depression among JWs.
@@sollasollew3208 That's amazing, me too... Smh
I think a lot of has to do with an atmosphere of Fear, Obligation, and Guilt. There’s so much pressure to be productive and prove your spirituality through visible observation, through measurable numbers. There’s this constant awareness of one’s inadequacy, that one could be doing more. Self worth is tied up with producing and displaying. When you falter even for a moment you feel like a failure.
Wow! So glad these men have had the strength of character to stand up and be counted...that was pretty difficult to listen to. I was never a witness but went along now and again. ...the elders always struck me as weak meddling little men who wanted power! How right I was..thank goodness I wasn't drawn into it...I must be stronger than I think because I would never ever let any silly old man guide my life!
Imagine if you'd been brought up as a child into it. I was raised Catholic, and that was bad enough, being told by those I trusted most all sorts of silly magical stories, many of which were clearly, on the face of it, lies. I gave up on all faith-based systems about age 10, but maybe I wouldn't have fared as well in a more controlling religion. I'm glad you weren't taken in by the JWs, and hope you weren't taken in by any other of their kind. There's a silly old man in a dress and comical hat whom I was taught to greatly respect, and at least in part to let guide my life. The current one is more silly than evil, but his predecessor Ratzinger, was despicable.
Incredibly well said about the elders “Weak meddling little men who want power!”
WOW! Great interview. It came to my mind when watching this that the watchtower is actually driving good, decent and loving people out. You can tell Steve and Dave are two very genuine, loving individuals with huge hearts and good consciences. Because of the towers need for control and rules, decent elders like this are dropping like flies and not just out of being and elder out period! What is left is narcissistic, uncaring, unfeeling men who bully and don't care about anyone or anything but their own agenda. Years before me and my husband woke up we experienced this first hand. Which led to our switching congregations. My husband was a MS and we were really that "perfect" JW family doing everything exactly like we should and absolutely no controversy. After we switched halls, years later, an elder told us about the letter they received about us and it was HORRIBLE!! He said he has no idea why they would write something so awful about us when he could see that is not who we were. I think that is when the first seeds of doubt were planted. We did EVERYTHING we could and this?? It still took a few years after that before the ARC and pillowgate etc. really opened our eyes and we finally left Dec. 2017. Thank you Lloyd for being part of our journey.
So glad to hear that you and your husband woke up together! Yes the letters that would accompany members when they switched congs could be so brutal - often influenced by one elder who might've had a grudge against an individual. Another avenue where pettiness was often on full display.
Once again, great video. I've been out of the organization for over twenty years, but I still empathize with JWs whom I used to call my brothers and sisters.
Same - and it's so important to remember what our mindset was like when we were believers. Remembering that helps to keep us approachable when the time is right for ones who are waking.
I've been out of the JW for over 30 yrs and my father still tells me when there's a memorial coming up.
Lol well that’s nice of him😂😂😂
The more I learn the more I want to come out to my family as a non believer. I know I will lose a majority of them and that is the only reason it has taken me so long to say anything. I know the time is near and there is only so much a person can tolerate before you reach a breaking point. I just know I dont want the organization to influence my life or my kids lives anymore...
I was there! My two children were at baptism age ( actually a little older, 10 and 11) and I was petrified! You can do this! Save you and your children!
Your personal happiness and freedom for your kids has to come first. Your're right about breaking points - I did 6 months of being an active elder whilst almost fully awake - it was hell! Six months was my breaking point, I know of others who managed years to try and get loved ones out, some being successful and others not. But just know your limits - don't let them break you.
Wish you luck Dee. Yes your family won't be able to see reason but down the track your kids will thank you and I'm sure you will look back and thank your self! It's possibly one the harder things to do in life having family feel sorry for you. My younger brother is an uber elder and will never see reason, I have had many discussions with him on just how wrong the cult/organisation is but when your inside it, you just refuse to see the truth. I'm sure he sees me as an apostate (their term not mine - as it actually means simply someone who changes their belief in religion/politics) and now is unwilling to further discuss anything with me so yes that side of leaving is difficult but being true to oneself brings freedom to you and your kids. Best.
Dee JMC ..just play at being a double agent and slowly try to educate your loved ones so you can save them from a hippocritical life of sadness and sorrow..
@@richardhowe4140 It would be very difficult. I have alot of family who are witnesses, at least 30 members basically all of my immediate family I was baptized at 13, and I have all but defected by slowly fading. Its just gonna be really hard for me to hold my tounge when majority of our family takes a strong stand in the organization.
I was " marked" in the congregation. My "friends" distanced themselves from me to the point that I couldn't even get a "friend" to go out for a cup of coffee after the meeting...☕...😟...
Sorry to hear this
Hazte de amigos afuera, ellos no merecen tu amistad si en ella media la obediencia a la WTB&T.
😞
"Bewitched " was a very good word to use. Is anyone going to mention the strange books that only the elders use and see ?
I'm so proud of you. It's not easy to admit (even to yourself) that you've been wrong and duped all your life, not to mention facing the consequences of that admission.
True. As a believer, the thought of being wrong is so uncomfortable and disturbing. Now I enjoy finding where my thinking needs improvement - that's the path to continual growth.
They are so brave showing their faces and telling their stories knowing that it will ultimately mean being punished for it. I truly wish I had the courage to do this. Wishing them both all the very best for the future!
Thank you for your comment Kendra. As we mentioned in the interview, we've pretty much lost everyone already. The possible further punishment of being kicked out of an organisation that repulses us is not that big a concern. Just my personal opinion.:)
The comment about feeling alone in your doubts, really resonated with me. I used to feel bad sitting at the hall and looking around at everyone feeling that they were perfect and would not be able to understand if I told them I was not able to live up to it all. I felt like a fraud because I hated it all so much. Thank goodness I have found this community. x
Thank you for this video. I learned so how much of this cult that I never was aware of .This cult protects the person causing the harm and puts the responsibility on the victim. It’s disgusting and soo twisted!!
Thank you all for sharing this information. ❤️💕❤️
For those that stay in it just considered a test of faith and obedience. Waters receding from Babylon the Great. The affect that JW org has had on my life has proven to be very damaging- t is very hard to pick up the pieces and finding outlets or sources that will help me do so. The defining line is how JW org treats people, especially young people and those who are struggling with mental health issues.
jokich, yes, how they treat young people … what can you expect from an organization that shelters child rapists.
Fantastic news that Dave has alerted the authorities to the person in his congregation
My sister always doubted the teachings of 1914, Israel of God, Partaking at memorial, and mediatorship. It was her reasoning and studying scripture with REAL history of Jews from a Jewish standpoint. I came to accept that their teaching had flaws.Then she got disfellowshipped for telling the elders that Bible teaching was above doctrine and Unity. So she was disfellowshipped as an apostate because she was against policy. I could not agree with how she was treated, so I started doing in depth about the Eschatology of Jehovah Witnesses. Realizing they were an advent religion and the flaws of dates and history of how Russell, Rutherford treated their wives. I realized it was just another part of false religion like the Catholic Church, a hierarchy religion.
Thanks to Steve and Dave for being so open and honest. You both have a lot of integrity that is very admirable. Thanks Lloyd for posting this.
Thank you Katherine - that means a lot!
Thank you all! This information does help confirm our feelings. It's nice to have a worldwide community even though it is virtual. I hope their wives and other family members come to the same realizations soon.
I continue to be moved and untired John by your sensitive videos.
John Stuart Mill 1867
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”
Take care you three good men. ❤️
If I don't what to have nothing to do with JW and they start coming over to my house asking for me to come to the judicial hearing for me I'd say "NO" and if they keep coming over a harassing me to come to that judicial hearing this is my response
"If you don't stop coming to my house telling me to come to this "judicial hearing" you'll give me no choice but to place legal action for harassing me and trespassing when i tell you not to come to my house anymore."
The problem is that we are talking about something that people have an emotional investment in, something that involves the loss of their friends and family and that is why these people are so courageous. I fear more though for the women who are discouraged from getting higher education and who are taught they are second class. How are these women going to get out - without a man’s help?
I always smile when I see how different form me most people leave the religion. I left as an elder during the circuit overseer visit. Lol 😊😎
Amazing video! In any toxic situation hearing others stories is so important so that people who are still in that toxicity have a better opportunity to find someone that they relate to and can say that person is telling some of my story experience and I'm not alone.
Knowing that you're not alone is SO important, and a huge motivation for both Steve and I to get our stories out there.
Exactly. The video can be very impactful to those who are just religion in general people (me), ex-JWs (friends I shared with) and people who are still in who come across it who know what other risks come along with publicly speaking. In the end, most people will see when looking with a clear hear that what you both speak on here is trying to help people which is what you thought you were doing in the first place. You are just setting out to help people in a different way which speaks to being the same person you both were at your core to start.
What Dave said should be the anthem of any honest hearted and truth minded person. "When an honest person discovers he is being deceived he either stops the deception or stops being honest". Too many of these men that take on the position of elder are in it for the perceived status and don't give a damn about the flock. It is evident by their behavior. However, that selfishness can be a vulnerability.
Well said. And yes that quote struck me immensely at the time, and it's one that I will treasure to my last breath.
Always great getting these perspectives. Please keep them coming Lloyd!
Watchtower is more Pharisaical than ever before. Time for Jesus to let go of this slave. New Slave desperately needed.
Genuine credit to these men for speaking from their heart while revealing a corrupt and unwholesome organization. I got out in 2000, 19 years ago yet what these men say is strongly reminiscent of events back then. Elder pride and abuse appears to still be rife.
Unfortunately yes it is. Glad you got out when you did!
I was a baptized JW until 1981 when I turned 22 yrs old. I have had no family or friends since that time. I think the hardest part of leaving the organization is the loss of all human ties to your old community. I know there have to be millions of Ex Witnesses that feel the same way. I think it would be a fantastic idea to organize an assembly for ex jw's. I'll put the idea out here now and see how many people would be interested in doing this.
I miss the fellowship and friendships but I don't miss the controlling agenda of the Watchtower Society. I've always known that it was imperfect MEN making all the rules and decisions in our lives. That has always chapped me badly. Just because we have turned or back on the cult doesn't mean we are evil, like the publications have always said we are. I'm a good person and so are you.
What do you say Lloyd, should we make a meeting place to have fellowship with those who have finally opened their eyes and fled the tyranny of Watchtower?
I think it's a great idea and a balm for our souls. I'm sure many people would walk away from the religion if they knew they would still be welcomed into a community of like minded good people. Small or large gatherings would be good. What do you think Ex-JW's???
Thanks for another good interview Lloyd. A great big thank you to both Steve and Dave for your bravery and honesty. Best wishes on your new journeys in life!
Thank you Leah - much appreciated!
Thank you for this video so much, my three amigo ex-elders! I'm having to stop in the middle and comment on the part where they told how the spreadsheet revealed with different colors, which publishers were dragging down the various book study averages. Not long before I quit the meetings altogether, I had this conversation with an elder who was married to my "best friend." I remarked to him that i was really beginning to feel unwelcome at the book study, at first just seeing the young elders glancing repeatedly at me while they had a quiet conversation before or after the book study. Then being outright told that I should attend a different location rather than the KH. It was a strong impression that the main thing they were worried about was the publishers with low hours were dragging down the average in the group. So, I told my friend's husband how I was feeling and asked him, Is it really all about the numbers rather than concern for the congregation? He said No - but not convincing in the least. After that the disapproval as i walked into the book study was so obvious. Even though i had injured my knees and walking was difficult, the service time I was claiming for writing letters and incidental witnessing was not enough. You get two opposite messages at the KH - the first one is, don't miss meetings, whatever else is going on with you. The second one is, don't be coming to our book study if your hours are low because it's all about the numbers and you better believe it.
Yes it is all about the numbers! In many decades of 'preaching' i never thought to cheat, aka add phony hours. But toward the end I realized a heck of a lot do! One pioneer had an Awake in the back window of her car ........and she counted all those hrs! Many just out & out lied! One sister who was in a few Dramas even, lied about everything ..all those bible studies ...everything!
Clarity 2
Wow, no wonder I had low hours. I didn’t cheat. 🤦♀️
All I have to say is thank you! and where were you 20 years ago? To know that I am not alone and that my experiences within this region were not the exception but the rule, to affirm my decision to leave was based on a clear moral guideline followed by many and not my own selfishness. Makes me happier than I have been in years. I appreciate that you do not speak belittling of these people but seek to educate. I hope that you continue to shine the light on a closed, insular, negative and misleading organization.
Lloyd - a hugely sensitively handled conversation with two ex-elders who have only recently come to know TTATT. These two men proved themselves to be perceptive, humble and empathic in their approach to their roles as elders - I'm so glad tney have found a way through JW.org's FOG (Fear, Obligation and Guilt) rather than remain elders in order to please fellow men.
Oh, and bravo for the extraordinarily thoughtful way you encouraged Dave to take further the disturbing information local elders had about a "brother" of concern and the branch's predictably very narrow view of who should be warned. Dave showed exceptional resonsivity to your urging him to go to the authorities. And well done that the closing statements confirmed he had now done so.
Thanks Steve - yes it feels good knowing the professionals have that information now. Your thoughts are much appreciated!
The bravery and honesty shown in this video is so refreshing. And I find, as others, that I am not alone. I had always said, while a JW , the truth should be able to stand up to scrutiny and hold its own. Why fear apostates? Research? Thank you. Thank you for validating.
Thank you for this interview, thank you elders for your stories, your courage and above all for your honesty. They have shown a true Christian spirit by making this report to help hundreds of brothers trapped there.
Yeah The royal commission really cemented it for me. I also watched for the reason that elder did even though I was wrongly disfellowshipped. Although I have always questioned everything and been open to discussion you still don’t realise just how bad it is as you initially think you have choice. The courage of my son to dig into all of this, in spite of the terror it invokes due to the brainwashing, was also very instrumental in me seeing things from many other angles which fortunately I was open to. I am very angry that I put my children through this horrible religion as it still affects them and I hope that will go in time.
Time does do wonders. And kudos to both you and your son! It takes a while for it to sink in that this organisation has caused such incredible amounts of pain and suffering on countless lives. Interesting to hear that you were wrongly dfd too - not uncommon though. I was brought before a JC 3 weeks after stepping down as an elder because my doubts had gone "too far" . Decision was to df but I appealed and got it overturned. Afterwards when I questioned why the "wrong decision" had been made to df, I was told by the other elders that the holy spirit had corrected it with the appeal. Oh dear....the mental gymnastics these people will go too....
Thanks so much Steve and David for sharing your amazing stories!
Stay strong! 👊💪👍
Elders are really "company men" who act as human resource agents for the Watchtower organization.
Remember, human resource agents act only in the best interests of the company.
Elders search out any who are not loyal to the company, and those who are not actively supporting the policies and mission; as well as, individuals who are not reaching established goals within the corporation.
All of these individuals threaten the profitability and outward reputation of of the company, and may affect others in the organization.
When individuals inside of the organization/corporation have learned of hypocritical actions, deceitful policies, or lies regarding the actions of representatives of corporation, departments or heads of the corporation (Governing Body) and begin exposing these...
Elders (human resource agents of the Watchtower ) are assigned to eliminate or lessen the effects of "whistle blowers" by labeling them "apostates".
Once they identify an individual as a "whistle blower" they follow well established company rules and actively pursue any threat that may expose secretive practices, hypocrisy, or harmful or illegal actions that may impact company's profitability.
Elders follow corporation guidelines set forth in the exclusive manual for elders, entitled: "Shepherd the Flock of God" published by the WTBTS.
1. To become informed as to the level of knowledge and information a potential whistle blower possesses.
2. Have a formal meeting (Judicial Committee hearing) with them to ascertain the level of dissent or waning support for the organization and threat they pose to the corporation.
3. Formally put the whistle blower on notice their actions constitute disloyalty to the corporation and they will be "fired" from the company losing all benefits and any ties to other members of the corporation.
4. During a congregation meeting ( regularly scheduled corporation workshop) announce the "firing" of those who have failed to follow corporate rules.
Southern Bawse Lady yes it is as you say it... satanic corporation... Jehovah does no fit in that picture or Corporation.. simple
Thanks John and the elders for the information is overwhelming and scary how the JW are doing, i woke up 3 yrs ago i'm happy and my depression goes away
I wonder how many witnesses are questioning and wondering Afraid to ask ANY questions about anything because immediately they will be labeled as troublemakers and elders will tell thier wives, then the wife in car groups tell others (normally not on a Wednesday or Saturday )but the day's only they are together ,from there the statement's are made in a way that is not out right but twisted so it puts questions in the minds of others about the person in question.
Nothing more then a gossiping session.
This is a large part of why I don't want anything to do with anyone. Pioneer sisters are nasty.
Another wonderful interview. It takes courage to speak up, so well done to all three of you.
Thank you Helena, appreciate your comment
As the ex-elders said; thanks for having such a platform Lloyd Evans, it most certainly does help in not feeling alone in all this. Whether you're newly awakened or left almost 20 years ago. Thank You.
Excellent. Well done! Great interview. Thank you, Lloyd. So much credit to these brave men for sharing their stories. 🙏🏽
As always Lloyd, Another superb video and much respect to Dave and Steve. Here is a quick one for you all. I moved into a new congregation as an elder and was told about all ongoing matters. One being about a man/brother that had serious history. Some twenty odd years previously he had murdered his girlfriend and served twenty years in a high security prison. I asked as to what knowledge the congregation and especially sisters had of this and was told in no uncertain terms that they must and will never know. Considering the back ground and the body having full knowledge of his past I was able to go home and like Dave warn my wife and daughters about this guy but could not talk about it to others. Within a week I saw him out in a car with a single sister on the ministry. I immediately called an elders meeting and was stunned to find out that it was one of the elders that had asked the sister to pick him up as he did not have a car. I put a stop to this right away using a bit of simple common sense. Obviously, I could go on more about this but the mind boggles as to the potential issues that are knowingly allowed to continue abuse wise and other.
Wow - that's incredible. Good on you for doing what was right though - would love to know more about the kickback you received from the rest of the body. Glad you got out and are free.
You know it was good to see Dave and Steve haven't had a shave,like so many others who wake up don't shave after all those years of having to be ' prim & proper ' to spread the 'good news '. Let yourself go ,relax and wear tight pants. Oh and have a few if not many beers..Great video Lloyd as always.
I recall pressure to reach out further. One elder from my original congregation told me, "30 is coming up pretty quick," in other words, it would be ideal for me to be an elder by age 30. My father at one point used the phrase, "If you become an elder." My highest point in the organization was as a ministerial servant at the age of 19, but there always seemed to be pressure to reach out further because you were nobody if you weren't a servant, an elder, or a circuit overseer.
It's never enough, just not enough...
Well done! Thank you, guys!
About 4 years ago there was an elder in the Pacific Northwest of the US that attended his son's wedding that was not held in a church so his JW parents could attend. The son had been baptized as a youngster, but faded decades before. Upon returning to his hometown, the elder was removed for attending his faded son's wedding. Corporate Policy.
@57:00ish Steve ... ABSOLUTELY! The truth welcomes scrutiny and embraces exposure whereas lies hate scrutiny and embrace darkness.
Bravo gentlemen, enjoyed your honesty and bravery in the face of such cruelty you will have to face from your so called friends re possible disfellowshipping sometime in the future. Thank you for being your true selves and sharing with us all. We would love to have an episode 3 and hear more from you all again, if that is possible Cedars.
Thank you Gail!
Such a raw interview. Thank you, everyone. Welcome to the family! Lol
Thank you Kristen!
You are all honorable gentlemen. Thank you for your courage and moving experiences.
Lloyd one small request. In the future should you interview Dave would you be so kind as to ask him to say "Spookey" and of course "Crickey". Just a little levity...Don't judge and please No Shunning. Best, The Professor
I just wanted to leave a comment here even though this video is several years old the experiences and the truths that are brought out in it are very very relevant for today. So I thought it deserved a fresh comment and a thank you!