I would also say that the fact that DS9 grapples with moral issues and corruption within the Federation makes the overall utopian future much more powerful. It shows that utopia takes a lot of work. It requires vigilance. It isn't perfect. And the fact that it isn't perfect makes it feel much more attainable from where we are now.
Dude that is what a lot of people don't understand about DS9. The intrinsic hope of star trek is beautiful thing but to suggest that humanity is irreversibly and completely changed for the better after a few hundred years is a dangerous thing. Humanity is only seen as a evolved because of their technology, how they restructured society, and reevaluated their place in cosmos. However humans are still just humans, there was no massive biological evolutionary shift. (1/2)
Humanity is not evolved per se but it is evolving into something better and something stronger. The dream of federation is a work in progress and noble one. To act like the job is done and that paradise will stand forever without protection, discipline, and as your vigilance risks dooming the whole of the federation to stagnation and collapse.
We could have done it, though taken a little longer without the intervention of the Space Elves with their ambitious agenda of "WORSHIP ME!!!" DS9 shows that Vulcans can better themselves, but ONLY through mind science and partial magic with their hands.
Shoutout to Jeffrey Combs, Andrew Robinson, and Marc Alaimo. We all knew Louise Fletcher was the only one for Kai Wen. But you will not find villains like these four... on the same show... at the same time.
Shit! Almost 10 years before, it perfectly explained the hardships that Soldiers go through during times of war. Its still the most succinct description of how I viewed myself during my multiple deployments during the War on Terror.
or the one between Maritza/DarHeel. " You see major i did what had to be done, my men understood that, id tell them to go out and kill Bajoran scum and they felt clean. Why?L Because they were clean" and of course , " what you call genocide i call a days work"
Ds9 took place in the frontier where Roddenberry's vision and Federation ideals came into direct conflict with dark parts if the universe. It was an amazing show with great actors, characters, stories etc. Sisko is the man!!!
Oh just u wait! ye forget about The Next Mutation, yes i know it failed like Buffy vs. the Hulk but.. We're still out there diving deeper than U-95 and pushing the envelope so we don't sink! Long Live Axanar's New Voyages! Hui'cha Kempai!
Thank you for a great, non racialized analysis of why new Trek is lacking. Some people get lazy and say new Trek sucks, because it's all about diversity. But Trek was always about diversity. New trek has serious issues with characters and story, and that's what needs to be said. So thank you.
Agreed. If you want to say it sucks, you really need to clarify your stance. For example, one of my problems with the show is that before Trek would explore the entire political spectrum & there would be debates about whether it's right/wrong etc & sometimes the answer would be both sides are right and or wrong. NuTrek doesn't explore nuance anymore. The Discovery or Picard crew come in. THIS is what's right and if we can't change how you do business...then you're wrong. Zero nuance.
@@criticalmas7770 You're exactly right. If you need to pick just two reasons why new Trek is so bad, it's just this: characters and story. The main characters are usually unlikeable, and the stories are usually nonsensical.
@@rp338 "Diversity deserves great writing." For instance, The Expanse is a good example of a TV series with excellent writing that embraces diversity without preaching diversity.
As an aside, I'll admit that there's another aspect of Discovery that I find very irritating: so much dialog is delivered while either whispering or crying. That's an issue with the acting & directing though, not the writing. I just don't understand why the officers of Discovery find it necessary to whisper at each other all the time, instead of just talking in normal voices like normal people.
You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned removing the name 'star trek' from the title. Take away the name star trek. Change the names of certain characters/planets/races. Use different ship designs. Suddenly there is nothing that connects this show to the star trek universe at all. It simply doesn't feel like it belongs.
@@colonelquack I do like fun. Also I'm 58 and have been a Trek fan since it started. But I also know real Trek when I see it. As well as having good taste. Which lower decks is neither good trek or funny. Just childishly stupid and obviously written by children.
@@russell5078084 I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm pushing 40 and find the "real Trek" nonsense similar to when TNG and DS9 came out. Lower Decks is everything I love about Trek. Ditto The Orville. Hope you have your box sets like I do.
This is an amazing breakdown and why I found DS9 to be my favorite. I was introduced to star trek with the first jj abrams i started to watch the show with enterprise, ds9, voy, and etc. I've come vack to DS9 time and time again because it had a balance of self contained episodes and longer story arcs. Long story arcs are good in Trek only when they spand multiple seasons with a slow progression.
The extremely heavily serialized format of the new shows makes it loose its adventure and rewatchability to me. It just feels like 1 dragged out season long story with no substance in any 1 episode
DS9 allowed us to invest in their characters. Even as something as simple as the stations personnel donating furniture and alcohol to Quark after the FCA has taken "everything" from him, they really haven't . . . because Quark finds out that he has family and friend among the station's occupants. Something that may seem so small, brought me to tears. Along with the action, special effects, etc . . . DS9 HAD TONS OF HEART!
You know watching Star Trek Discovery I had a revelation as to its biggest problem. It would be an amazing if it was actually set in the Mirror Universe, The Characters, the Tone, it would be Perfect for the Mirror Universe and I don't mean like they travel to the Mirror Universe, I mean like an ongoing series, set In the Mirror Universe like Enterprises In Mirror Darkly
It just occurred to me that Deep Space Nine might be the Star Trek show with the most non-human characters in the main and supporting cast. No non-human main character, but compared to every other Star Trek show that is progress. The original series and Enterprise get a pass since the former was the very first show and the latter takes place before the Federation is even made, but every other show usually has the main and supporting cast have humans fill half of these roles at least.
That *IS* of course, reasons of Practicality. Doubly so during TOS, just look at what it took to get Spck's ears. just look @ Klingons. Just remember IDIC. you need diversity to have combinations. ...Imagine a world where we all have the same culture, coin and culture and told what to believe. Horrifying Dystopia, eh!
The heat thing about that is the DS9 writer actually cared about writing actual story lines for the non-humans; there was character development for them. Sad to say, the other Trek series never really developed their nun-human characters. Even with Worf, Michael Dorn has stated in interviews that he would've never came back to Trek, if it wasn't for DS9's writers and showrunner. And the Ferengis were a one-note-joke in TNG, until DS9 allowed them to actually be a fleshed-out race. @@jsprite123
Thank you so much for this video!!! DS9 was dark at times but it always was to reflect against the utopian ideas of the federation. The new trek shows are just lazy and the darkness has not been earned. The writers do not take the time to establish a federation baseline before plunging it into darkness… sigh.
Actually DS0 fits very well. The first two shows and Voyagers took place on starships manned by humanities best and brightest. As such they presented the Federation at its best. DS9 takes place on a space station where we see more of Federation politics. The high ideals of the Federation are constantly on display, but also the gritty reality of realpolitik.
This is a really good and concise summary of the problems of all the Star Trek things that have come out since 2009. I hope in the future all this stuff will get decanonized and we will get a new real Star Trek show.
Star Trek originally use to make its audience (in the 60's) ask themselves questions. "In The Pale Moonlight" did the same thing, as we are pressed up against the question, 'given the circumstances, how far would we go???'
Serialized storytelling adds a lot to the show, as shown in DS9 and especially Babylon 5, But you do need to intersperse the arc stories with standalone episodes that serve prevent the main story from becoming stale (as happens on so many modern series) and to serve to provide focus on individual characters or groups of characters that aid in character development.
True that . . . and DS9 did a great job of placing great stories as diversions within their serialized story telling. They still moved he overall story arc along, although the episode's story was a story onto itself.
I felt the DS9 writers were setting up for another series in which the federation had become corrupt. The war had caused the Federation to compromise its principles once too often and now a rot had set in. The seven year arc would have been about revealing and correcting the problems to restore the Federation to its former standing. I envision this series would have mostly taken place inside the federation and could have focused on life and politics on various Federation worlds. The later popularity of Enterprise Season 4 suggests this could have worked. I never suggested it to anyone at the time because I thought it was obvious. Oh well.
It seems the further we get from Gene Roddenbery the further we get from the essence of what Star Trek was. Many writers and producers that knew Gene and even some who knew those people seemed to create episodes with a different trek "feel" than what later writers and producers created. The "new trek" may have some good points, but it feels more "manufactured" than a storyline humanity can better relate to. Not to mention the technology idiosyncracies of making older tech look more modern than newer tech. That would be an analysis video in itself, but that (along with uniform changes feeling forced for "newness" over true evolution) could be a future idea for another time. Basically, if you love it, then enjoy and don't let others ruin it for you. There's enough Trek universe for everyone. Thanks for the video.
Ah, this helps me understand my unclear dislike. I wanted to like Discovery, but my issue that I could understand was that the episodes didn't let you enjoy the ending. It was designed to force binging! I don't want to wait & watch 10 hrs to get resolution, and then it just rolls into the next season. I love ds9, and I think the tone was perfect. Sisko is my captain! May 22 is now Captain Sisko Day😉 (gonna double check that date... First celebrated this year!) Edit:Yay, I was right! Check out the page they made for him😊🖖
(Hard times create strong men). Gene Roddenberry was a B-17 pilot during WW2 and a police officer with the LAPD. (Strong men create good times). Roddenberry was passionate about sharing his vision of a better world. (Good times create weak men). Bryan Fuller and Alex Kurtzman are both career Hollywood technocrats. The entirety of all their accomplishments are centered around the entertainment industry, they know of nothing else. (Weak men create hard times). Star Trek Discovery / Star Trek Picard. Dystopian, violent, jaded and bitter.
DS9 also incorporated character outside of the Federation and Star Fleet. The ideology of worlds in the federation that have had 100's years of peace & plenty is very different to other worlds such as Bajor, the Cardasians, the Klingons, the Dominion etc... DS9 is a mismatch of all of these this is why it works. Modern Trek Star fleet is just Dark.
New Trek has no humanity. It's trying to be Game of Thrones in space. It's dark, dull, and hopeless. Original Trek, even in it's darkest moments, hung on to its humanity. New Trek says, "screw that, let's make a dark soap opera in space."
Nuff Said. Well spoken about the issues of New Trek and sadly I always felt the stories went down hill with Voyager since those felt like recycled TNG content. And then Enterprised felt like a series shoved into the timeline and into our faces that never was placed in the original Star Trek Chronology Book to explain the reason behind the NX series Starship.
Thanks for pointing this out in a simple and easy to understand fashion. It's been gnawing at for a while and I couldn't quite put it into words. Your essay covers my issues with new Trek beautifully.
Thank you for putting this into words!!! DS9 was such a good show because it showed those dark elements and challenged them and analyzed them. I was also outraged when they killed Icheb ignominiously just to prove how brutal the show could be and give Seven a motivation. That was a character we loved and respected and they just tossed him out with no respect.
I totally agree. Starterk use to be about the crew, mainly the top officers, New terk is about 1 person. I've commented many times of my dislike of DS9, about Michael's mutiny to take command should have been an automatic court-martial, the ship designs are weird to say the least, no Star Trek ship ever had to bridge on the underside of the saucer section, many tech used didn't exist in that timeline, the constant use of the F-bomb, the Klingons look like melted snicker bars now, in the bridge and ship interior is always black with dim lights. Even in Picard. In Picard the romulans look like a love child from 1970s Kung Fu & lord of rings elves.
New trek feels like people from now being placed in the future whereas old trek feels like future people being in the future. Old trek was "look how we better ourselves and improve." New trek feels like "look we are still messed up."
This was really good, it's amazing that if you say anything negative about STD you get labelled an istaphobe. The same in movie format with Captain Marvel. Both seem to be the most divisive in their respective franchises. It's really sad how new entertainment has gone this route. Blaming fans for their own failings.
When people use these labels (ists/phobes) to debate you its simply because they can't come up with valid points to debate you on. Granted, there are some legitimate A-holes out there who will hate something for bigoted reasons but they are such a small percentage of the population that they aren't even worth addressing. The reality is, once you are labeled an ist or a phobe, the connotations associated with those terms are so negative that you can outrightly be dismissed and in theory do not need to be debated. Its an easy out for someone who has no real way to defend their argument.
True that! The first time I watched 'Captain Marvel', I liked 'Wonder Woman' more. Although over time and re-watching both, I like 'Captain Marvel' a lot more. The story is a lot more intricate, impactful and complex.
I like to think that in the episode In the Pale Moonlight, Sisco realized that Eddington had a point. And he'd have to do it again here. HE had to go against his duty as a Starfleet officer in order to bring the Romulans into the war on the Federation side of it.
Good observation! I believe his encounters with Eddington and Hudson (Marquis) helped push Sisko to confront a part of himself that was buried beneath the uniform. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
When you showed the clip from Picard I remember watching that and wishing Picard had reminded her that she got the job because he didn't want it considering we all know he could have easily been head of Starfleet if he had wanted to just like Kirk. Would have made for a great comeback to what she said to him not to mention would have been totally meme worthy.
I know it's been awhile since you posted this video. What a wonderful analysis between the new Trek,STD, & Puckhard. The problem with the new Star Trek there's nothing aspirational about any of the characters. Consider Spock's brain, coat of Honor, come along home, & threshold....... Even the worst episodes of Berman truck still rival that of the new crap. Remember when kids wanted to be engineers and astronauts because it was inspired by Star Trek and now kids want to be overly emotional overreactive and not taking responsibilities for your own actions. Plus it was really upsetting the lead character a Star Trek discovery Michael Burnham happens to have my first name I think that's what set me off LOL!
DS9 is my desert island show. A lot of ink has been wasted over serialization versus stand-alone episodes. There's room for both, but DS9 makes a convincing case for serialization. Quark and the Ferengi are great characters, and give a kind of Everyman perspective on the Star Trek/Roddenberry vision. Quark/Odo and Quark/Garak have great interplay. Garak was a brilliantly conceived character, with a back story revealed little by little. If I could make one change, I'd add a reference to Andrew Robinson's other back story, the killer in Dirty Harry. - maybe just a chance reference to feeling lucky.
Nice analysis. For me, however, I would say that one of the top reasons that DS9 (my favorite Trek) is better than new Trek is ACTING. All of the actors in DS9 are outstanding. On the other hand, I tried to watch Discovery but found the acting to be wooden and uninspired. It was so bad that I thought I was watching an SNL Trek parody at first. I had to shut it off.
Abrams' plan to leave the prime universe untouched would have been smarter if he hadn't created his parallel reality by blowing up one of the major factions IN THE PRIME UNIVERSE!
Dude, couldn't agree more. The last point might be the most important! We're TRAPPED, the story sucks, the writing sucks, and its one story. We can't get out. Now just imagine if THESE writers had to come up with 24-26 seperate stories per season how bad they would be!
Great video. Where DS9 was showing how the utopian rules could bend and break when put under extreme pressure, new Trek is just a different world. Even simple things like respect for rank and chain of command seem to have been thrown out of the window as they are inconvenient. Do you think Riker would have incapacitated Picard so as to disobey a direct order, all whilst not in any direct immediate danger? To attack another race as well. Madness. Jason Isaacs as Captain Lorca was amazing though.
Out of a majority of the characters on Star Trek even though seven and nine was incredibly gorgeous, she did have the most character development out of almost all the characters on Star Trek. From getting out of the collective to gaining her glimpse of humanity. And it was incredible to go on that journey with her and understand her motivation and her struggle with grasping who she was as a person.
DS9 was the best trek show. The writting was great and it was the natural extension of TNG which was the second best trek show. New trek is not good they runied Capt Picard humanlity. Strange new worlds should be better.
Nice analysis. I've struggle with why I hate ST: Discovery so much and you've hit upon a lot of it. Now that I've watched Season 3, I wish they had just started with ST: D a thousand years in the future. At least then the dystopian feel could be explained. But this show, this crew, these stories, were all dystopian *before* the Enterprise left space dock. And of course, don't get me started on continuity issues.
I think liking the characters goes a long way to keep you interested. Also episodic is a great way to go with lesser writers. While seasonal story requires excellent writers. But I'm biased only liking TOS, TNG and DS9.
Thanks for this video I totally agree with everything you said, I didn't know why I didn't like new Trek but you broke it down very nicely. I'm a Massive DS9 fan. I'd there anything else you would recommend that's as good as DS9 out there? I've watched all the other franchises. Ppl say BSG but I don't think it's the same as DS9 or the other good and old treks (voyegor etc...)
Great analysis. I hadn't realized it until now but you're totally right there are very few likable characters in New Trek. Episode 2 of Strange New Worlds gave me some hope that it will be more like Trek in many more ways though. Here's hoping...
I would guess that the episode was focused more on the exploration of being in virtual 'solitary confinement' for a long period of time, and its effects on the human spirit. As its was a brief period of time, his physical body was still intact, although his mental capacity was beaten and traumatized. If there were follow-up to that episode, I believe that they would've touched upon his recovery. Although for all we know, the Federation had techniques to help him recover from the implanted memories of that experience. Nevertheless, great acting on the part of Colm Meaney.
New "trek" suffers from "the message." Star trek did have an overall message (the future is something to look forward to because it's going to be good...with challenges) however the new stuff tosses that message out the window and replaces it with the woke message/agenda...and whenever the writing runs dry - space battles/lense flares/beams of colorful light/explosions/Dutch angles/shaky cam/quick zooms (horribly manufactured tension). No one writes the "we are reprensitives of starfleet and the federation. We have just discovered a new alien species, our options: [should we: [1 - establish communication, 2 - start invisible observations, 3 - invade/destroy, 4 - avoid, 5 - exploit, 6 - give medical assistance, 7 - negotiate cease fire, 8 - R&R...to here these options again, press - 9] anymore. Now it's: "AAHHH! Baddies, shoot to kill, women are superior, men are stupid because...because...it just is *bang-bang-boom-boom*
The answer to fixing Star Trek would be IMO Manny Coto. That guy knows how to make great Trek. Paramount, if you ever listen to anyone, get Manny Coto involved.
Deep Space 9 takes Star Trek and through a kind of deconstruction analyzes the franchise, but always remained respectful. How good is the Federation really? Are compromises always the right way, or is there a point where a compromise would go too far? Where is that point? When pushed to the breaking point, can they hold on to their principles? What are they willing to sacrifice for the greater good or just survival? Kurtzman-trek just throws everything that is Star Trek out the window and ignores everything it ever stood for so Kurtzman can tell his own story however he feels, with the just a very thin coat of Star Trek and the label only being slapped on it so they can get free viewers and puplicity without having to earn either. Also to see whether dark can work for Star Trek, just look at Wrath of Khan. Probably the single most popular Star Trek production there is and it is very dark, very good and 100% Star Trek.
Exactly. There were plenty of classic Star Trek episodes that were *_very_* dark: Balance of Terror The Conscience of the King The Doomsday Machine The Taste of Armageddon Let That Be Your Last Battlefield A Private Little War The Menagerie Errand of Mercy The Enterprise Incident And even more. But all of them were fundamentally Star Trek.
I totally agree....DS9 WAS ABOUT THE PERSONS.. great characters great stories enough space and ships. Strenge New world is getting the closest to the old series.
Simply put Avery Brooks was selected for the job because he was the best man for the job. New trek positions were filled because they were the right color for the job
thanks for the great video. it was objective while being rooted in Star Trek. there are some youtubers who are ranting and raving about their own politics… but those don’t usually represent what makes star trek special either and those aren’t fair criticisms of new trek either.
The reason darker storytelling worked for DS9 and not Disco is because it was established early and thoroughly that this was NOT Federation territory. This was on the relative fringes, and largely unprotected space. A place largely devoid of Starfleet's oversite, and notably, its laws. Sisko himself points this out in his classic and flamboyantly flagrant "peace in paradise" speech to an Admiral (who largely ignored him). Disco is just dark for the sake of it being dark. Every single damn thing that comes along is a potential universe ending event. It's just shit writing. "The Burn"? C'mon. They also completely forgot a major lore point that the Romulans haven't used a standard warp drive since before the Dominion War, as they proved inefficient for ships as large as the D'Deridex Class Warbird. And thus would have been completely unaffected by The Burn. They'd have swooped in and completely overtaken the Federation and Klingons had such a crippling event occurred and were not rectified quickly. Trek is not Trek without Berman and Braga. Braga whom, as I recall, now writes for The Orville.
Absolutely hit the nail on the head. New 'star trek' has completely thrown away the optimism of the originals. The Orville has actually been more star trek than star trek!
Even with what modern trek is promising, ie action and effects, I still get 10 times more thrills from watching the visuals and effects of the Borg battle in the beginning of First contact or the mutara nebula clash or Enterprise in the V'ger cloud. So what's the point of all these light flares and overly CGId crap?
IMO, section 31 does not actually exist. It's allowed for in the original Starfleet charter. Guys like Sloan and that Admiral just know each other and talk to each other. The original charter gives them justification to do what they think needs to be done, and they just call themselves section 31.
New trek characters act like children with no adults to reprimand. The swearing and uncaring attitudes with no consequences to their actions. I loved every character in ds9. I cannot say that about new trek.
Unfortunately there has been so much bad trek in the last few years that the franchise (post-Enterprise) is dead to me. I was really looking forward to Picard and Discover. I managed half a season of Picard and two half-episodes of Discovery.
I know this video was made before it came out, but Strange New Worlds is a lot better than the other two, with likable characters, good plots, episodic format, actual exploration, and comeradery.
In the Pale Moonlight is my favorite episode about morality in war. We find Captain Sisko trying to justify his deception and methods of trying to bring the Romulans into the war against The Dominion.
Personnally I think Picard is a lesser offender cuz shit has been happening to mess-up paradise; the Dominion war, the destruction of the Romulans home world and how it affected other powers in the quadrant are elements that kind of explain some of those darker tones. On the other hand Discovery is supposed to be set in "happy trek" time in aproximatly the same time of TOS but is far more dark for no logical reasons. And when adressed with this apparent incoherence did they try to lighten the show to fit the time? Nope they threw the damn ship and show in the 32th century when no comparaison can be made and they can be as shitty dark as they want to. Hope they do better with Strange New World, have'nt seen the first episode yet but I hope they lighten up that one so it fit with is timeframe in cannon.
I would also say that the fact that DS9 grapples with moral issues and corruption within the Federation makes the overall utopian future much more powerful. It shows that utopia takes a lot of work. It requires vigilance. It isn't perfect. And the fact that it isn't perfect makes it feel much more attainable from where we are now.
Dude that is what a lot of people don't understand about DS9. The intrinsic hope of star trek is beautiful thing but to suggest that humanity is irreversibly and completely changed for the better after a few hundred years is a dangerous thing. Humanity is only seen as a evolved because of their technology, how they restructured society, and reevaluated their place in cosmos. However humans are still just humans, there was no massive biological evolutionary shift. (1/2)
Humanity is not evolved per se but it is evolving into something better and something stronger. The dream of federation is a work in progress and noble one. To act like the job is done and that paradise will stand forever without protection, discipline, and as your vigilance risks dooming the whole of the federation to stagnation and collapse.
@@ryanperez5457 Exactly! The evolution humanity has undergone was cultural evolution, not an change in human nature.
@@ryanperez5457 I love your take.
We could have done it, though taken a little longer without the intervention of the Space Elves with their ambitious agenda of "WORSHIP ME!!!" DS9 shows that Vulcans can better themselves, but ONLY through mind science and partial magic with their hands.
Shoutout to Jeffrey Combs, Andrew Robinson, and Marc Alaimo. We all knew Louise Fletcher was the only one for Kai Wen. But you will not find villains like these four... on the same show... at the same time.
Comps is best as shren. But you are right.
The talk between Quirk and Nog about humans in The Siege of AR-558 is one of the best in all of Star Trek.
Shit! Almost 10 years before, it perfectly explained the hardships that Soldiers go through during times of war. Its still the most succinct description of how I viewed myself during my multiple deployments during the War on Terror.
But it should be noted that this is only Quarks point of view, based on his experiences. It's not an all-encompassing truth.
I prefer his little chat with Garak about root-beer.
or the one between Maritza/DarHeel.
" You see major i did what had to be done, my men understood that, id tell them to go out and kill Bajoran scum and they felt clean. Why?L Because they were clean"
and of course , " what you call genocide i call a days work"
@@Grubnar Yes me too. The two talks perfectly show two sides of the federation
My favorite part about Ben Sisko was that he managed to meet Jim Kirk without getting him killed in the process.
Ds9 took place in the frontier where Roddenberry's vision and Federation ideals came into direct conflict with dark parts if the universe. It was an amazing show with great actors, characters, stories etc. Sisko is the man!!!
The most realistic war-time show to never glamorize war.
I was just going to comment the same. DS9 could get away with things in that it wasn't the flagship of the Federation. 100% agree with you.
Honestly. I feel like Worf really came into his own as a character on DS9.
When Capt Picard killed Rey Palpatine, that was the turning point of Harry Potter IMO. The Rise of the Next to the Last Generation was enjoyable.
Oh just u wait! ye forget about The Next Mutation, yes i know it failed like Buffy vs. the Hulk but.. We're still out there diving deeper than U-95 and pushing the envelope so we don't sink!
Long Live Axanar's New Voyages! Hui'cha Kempai!
Thank you for a great, non racialized analysis of why new Trek is lacking. Some people get lazy and say new Trek sucks, because it's all about diversity. But Trek was always about diversity. New trek has serious issues with characters and story, and that's what needs to be said. So thank you.
Agreed. If you want to say it sucks, you really need to clarify your stance. For example, one of my problems with the show is that before Trek would explore the entire political spectrum & there would be debates about whether it's right/wrong etc & sometimes the answer would be both sides are right and or wrong. NuTrek doesn't explore nuance anymore. The Discovery or Picard crew come in. THIS is what's right and if we can't change how you do business...then you're wrong. Zero nuance.
@@criticalmas7770 You're exactly right. If you need to pick just two reasons why new Trek is so bad, it's just this: characters and story. The main characters are usually unlikeable, and the stories are usually nonsensical.
Well said. My issues have been around the poor writing and weirdly childish dialogue and behavior. Diversity deserves great writing.
@@rp338 "Diversity deserves great writing." For instance, The Expanse is a good example of a TV series with excellent writing that embraces diversity without preaching diversity.
As an aside, I'll admit that there's another aspect of Discovery that I find very irritating: so much dialog is delivered while either whispering or crying. That's an issue with the acting & directing though, not the writing. I just don't understand why the officers of Discovery find it necessary to whisper at each other all the time, instead of just talking in normal voices like normal people.
You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned removing the name 'star trek' from the title.
Take away the name star trek. Change the names of certain characters/planets/races. Use different ship designs. Suddenly there is nothing that connects this show to the star trek universe at all.
It simply doesn't feel like it belongs.
Ironically I said the same thing in a video last night on an different channel. Nu Trek doesn’t deserve the title of Star Trek.
That quark line on human nature is one of the greatest Star Trek quotes ever.
And garak is seriously one of the greatest characters in sci-fi history.
So very true, "sci-fi", not just Star Trek! Garak is gold!@@420Gold
I miss Trek when it was still Trek. The last real Trek series was Enterprise.
Lower Decks! Lower Decks! Lower Decks!
@@colonelquack no.
@@russell5078084 Hrm. Guess you don't like fun. Your loss. : )
@@colonelquack I do like fun. Also I'm 58 and have been a Trek fan since it started. But I also know real Trek when I see it. As well as having good taste. Which lower decks is neither good trek or funny. Just childishly stupid and obviously written by children.
@@russell5078084 I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm pushing 40 and find the "real Trek" nonsense similar to when TNG and DS9 came out. Lower Decks is everything I love about Trek. Ditto The Orville.
Hope you have your box sets like I do.
This is an amazing breakdown and why I found DS9 to be my favorite. I was introduced to star trek with the first jj abrams i started to watch the show with enterprise, ds9, voy, and etc. I've come vack to DS9 time and time again because it had a balance of self contained episodes and longer story arcs. Long story arcs are good in Trek only when they spand multiple seasons with a slow progression.
The extremely heavily serialized format of the new shows makes it loose its adventure and rewatchability to me. It just feels like 1 dragged out season long story with no substance in any 1 episode
DS9 allowed us to invest in their characters. Even as something as simple as the stations personnel donating furniture and alcohol to Quark after the FCA has taken "everything" from him, they really haven't . . . because Quark finds out that he has family and friend among the station's occupants. Something that may seem so small, brought me to tears.
Along with the action, special effects, etc . . . DS9 HAD TONS OF HEART!
You know watching Star Trek Discovery I had a revelation as to its biggest problem. It would be an amazing if it was actually set in the Mirror Universe, The Characters, the Tone, it would be Perfect for the Mirror Universe and I don't mean like they travel to the Mirror Universe, I mean like an ongoing series, set In the Mirror Universe like Enterprises In Mirror Darkly
Thank you! Finally, somebody expressed why "new Star Trek" doesn't measure up to what came before.
DS9 drew a line between hopefulness and naivete. Nutrek acts as if hopefulness is a betrayal of the writers' own nihilism.
"Nu Trek does not challenge Utopia, it overpowers it."
What an amazing straight-to-the-point analysis.
It just occurred to me that Deep Space Nine might be the Star Trek show with the most non-human characters in the main and supporting cast. No non-human main character, but compared to every other Star Trek show that is progress. The original series and Enterprise get a pass since the former was the very first show and the latter takes place before the Federation is even made, but every other show usually has the main and supporting cast have humans fill half of these roles at least.
That *IS* of course, reasons of Practicality. Doubly so during TOS, just look at what it took to get Spck's ears. just look @ Klingons.
Just remember IDIC. you need diversity to have combinations. ...Imagine a world where we all have the same culture, coin and culture and told what to believe. Horrifying Dystopia, eh!
The irony is that most of those non-human characters were in a way...the most human ones!
The heat thing about that is the DS9 writer actually cared about writing actual story lines for the non-humans; there was character development for them. Sad to say, the other Trek series never really developed their nun-human characters. Even with Worf, Michael Dorn has stated in interviews that he would've never came back to Trek, if it wasn't for DS9's writers and showrunner. And the Ferengis were a one-note-joke in TNG, until DS9 allowed them to actually be a fleshed-out race. @@jsprite123
Thank you so much for this video!!! DS9 was dark at times but it always was to reflect against the utopian ideas of the federation. The new trek shows are just lazy and the darkness has not been earned. The writers do not take the time to establish a federation baseline before plunging it into darkness… sigh.
Why did it take the algorithm so long to show me this video?
Right there with ya, pal.
Actually DS0 fits very well. The first two shows and Voyagers took place on starships manned by humanities best and brightest. As such they presented the Federation at its best. DS9 takes place on a space station where we see more of Federation politics. The high ideals of the Federation are constantly on display, but also the gritty reality of realpolitik.
This is a really good and concise summary of the problems of all the Star Trek things that have come out since 2009.
I hope in the future all this stuff will get decanonized and we will get a new real Star Trek show.
Thank you. In the pale moonlight is quite simply the greatest star Trek episode ever and possibly one of the best sci-fi episodes in general ever
Star Trek originally use to make its audience (in the 60's) ask themselves questions. "In The Pale Moonlight" did the same thing, as we are pressed up against the question, 'given the circumstances, how far would we go???'
Serialized storytelling adds a lot to the show, as shown in DS9 and especially Babylon 5, But you do need to intersperse the arc stories with standalone episodes that serve prevent the main story from becoming stale (as happens on so many modern series) and to serve to provide focus on individual characters or groups of characters that aid in character development.
True that . . . and DS9 did a great job of placing great stories as diversions within their serialized story telling. They still moved he overall story arc along, although the episode's story was a story onto itself.
This is a great take. Very balanced and fair. Not insulting fans of "new trek". Just very honest while being completely respectful.
"It has no identity but pretends that it does!" Wonderfully stated!
So glad I found this video essay and your Picard review's. Couldn't agree more! Keep up the good work.
I felt the DS9 writers were setting up for another series in which the federation had become corrupt. The war had caused the Federation to compromise its principles once too often and now a rot had set in. The seven year arc would have been about revealing and correcting the problems to restore the Federation to its former standing. I envision this series would have mostly taken place inside the federation and could have focused on life and politics on various Federation worlds. The later popularity of Enterprise Season 4 suggests this could have worked.
I never suggested it to anyone at the time because I thought it was obvious. Oh well.
Sisko is the best captain. Period. And Garak was so likeable because of Andrew Robinson's amazing performance.
It seems the further we get from Gene Roddenbery the further we get from the essence of what Star Trek was. Many writers and producers that knew Gene and even some who knew those people seemed to create episodes with a different trek "feel" than what later writers and producers created. The "new trek" may have some good points, but it feels more "manufactured" than a storyline humanity can better relate to. Not to mention the technology idiosyncracies of making older tech look more modern than newer tech. That would be an analysis video in itself, but that (along with uniform changes feeling forced for "newness" over true evolution) could be a future idea for another time. Basically, if you love it, then enjoy and don't let others ruin it for you. There's enough Trek universe for everyone. Thanks for the video.
Ah, this helps me understand my unclear dislike. I wanted to like Discovery, but my issue that I could understand was that the episodes didn't let you enjoy the ending. It was designed to force binging! I don't want to wait & watch 10 hrs to get resolution, and then it just rolls into the next season. I love ds9, and I think the tone was perfect. Sisko is my captain! May 22 is now Captain Sisko Day😉 (gonna double check that date... First celebrated this year!)
Edit:Yay, I was right! Check out the page they made for him😊🖖
(Hard times create strong men). Gene Roddenberry was a B-17 pilot during WW2 and a police officer with the LAPD.
(Strong men create good times). Roddenberry was passionate about sharing his vision of a better world.
(Good times create weak men). Bryan Fuller and Alex Kurtzman are both career Hollywood technocrats. The entirety of all their accomplishments are centered around the entertainment industry, they know of nothing else.
(Weak men create hard times). Star Trek Discovery / Star Trek Picard. Dystopian, violent, jaded and bitter.
Dude, your sound mixing in the mic is on point.
One (of the many) problem(s) with new treks dark and nihilistic characters is that they still treat them as role Models. Error error major logic flaw.
DS9 also incorporated character outside of the Federation and Star Fleet. The ideology of worlds in the federation that have had 100's years of peace & plenty is very different to other worlds such as Bajor, the Cardasians, the Klingons, the Dominion etc... DS9 is a mismatch of all of these this is why it works. Modern Trek Star fleet is just Dark.
New Trek has no humanity. It's trying to be Game of Thrones in space. It's dark, dull, and hopeless.
Original Trek, even in it's darkest moments, hung on to its humanity. New Trek says, "screw that, let's make a dark soap opera in space."
I agree with every single point you made. every episode of STD is criiiiinge!!
Ds9 was also before the iphone age people were more patient
Ahhh this articulated what I was thinking and feeling so well. Awesome video!!!
Man, Geek, you get it. Easy subscribe.
Nuff Said. Well spoken about the issues of New Trek and sadly I always felt the stories went down hill with Voyager since those felt like recycled TNG content. And then Enterprised felt like a series shoved into the timeline and into our faces that never was placed in the original Star Trek Chronology Book to explain the reason behind the NX series Starship.
Thanks for pointing this out in a simple and easy to understand fashion. It's been gnawing at for a while and I couldn't quite put it into words. Your essay covers my issues with new Trek beautifully.
I've never liked the newer versions, far too removed from the originals.
Thank you for putting this into words!!! DS9 was such a good show because it showed those dark elements and challenged them and analyzed them. I was also outraged when they killed Icheb ignominiously just to prove how brutal the show could be and give Seven a motivation. That was a character we loved and respected and they just tossed him out with no respect.
So how do they make Seven of Nine a Captain, when she's an outright revenging murderer.
I totally agree. Starterk use to be about the crew, mainly the top officers, New terk is about 1 person. I've commented many times of my dislike of DS9, about Michael's mutiny to take command should have been an automatic court-martial, the ship designs are weird to say the least, no Star Trek ship ever had to bridge on the underside of the saucer section, many tech used didn't exist in that timeline, the constant use of the F-bomb, the Klingons look like melted snicker bars now, in the bridge and ship interior is always black with dim lights. Even in Picard. In Picard the romulans look like a love child from 1970s Kung Fu & lord of rings elves.
New trek feels like people from now being placed in the future whereas old trek feels like future people being in the future.
Old trek was "look how we better ourselves and improve." New trek feels like "look we are still messed up."
This was really good, it's amazing that if you say anything negative about STD you get labelled an istaphobe.
The same in movie format with Captain Marvel.
Both seem to be the most divisive in their respective franchises.
It's really sad how new entertainment has gone this route. Blaming fans for their own failings.
When people use these labels (ists/phobes) to debate you its simply because they can't come up with valid points to debate you on. Granted, there are some legitimate A-holes out there who will hate something for bigoted reasons but they are such a small percentage of the population that they aren't even worth addressing.
The reality is, once you are labeled an ist or a phobe, the connotations associated with those terms are so negative that you can outrightly be dismissed and in theory do not need to be debated. Its an easy out for someone who has no real way to defend their argument.
True that!
The first time I watched 'Captain Marvel', I liked 'Wonder Woman' more. Although over time and re-watching both, I like 'Captain Marvel' a lot more. The story is a lot more intricate, impactful and complex.
: Discovery's crew is basically a lot of (stereotypical) high school and college kids because that's who the writers/producers think are the fans.
I like to think that in the episode In the Pale Moonlight, Sisco realized that Eddington had a point. And he'd have to do it again here. HE had to go against his duty as a Starfleet officer in order to bring the Romulans into the war on the Federation side of it.
Good observation! I believe his encounters with Eddington and Hudson (Marquis) helped push Sisko to confront a part of himself that was buried beneath the uniform. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
When you showed the clip from Picard I remember watching that and wishing Picard had reminded her that she got the job because he didn't want it considering we all know he could have easily been head of Starfleet if he had wanted to just like Kirk.
Would have made for a great comeback to what she said to him not to mention would have been totally meme worthy.
I know it's been awhile since you posted this video. What a wonderful analysis between the new Trek,STD, & Puckhard. The problem with the new Star Trek there's nothing aspirational about any of the characters. Consider Spock's brain, coat of Honor, come along home, & threshold....... Even the worst episodes of Berman truck still rival that of the new crap. Remember when kids wanted to be engineers and astronauts because it was inspired by Star Trek and now kids want to be overly emotional overreactive and not taking responsibilities for your own actions. Plus it was really upsetting the lead character a Star Trek discovery Michael Burnham happens to have my first name I think that's what set me off LOL!
DS9 is my desert island show.
A lot of ink has been wasted over serialization versus stand-alone episodes. There's room for both, but DS9 makes a convincing case for serialization.
Quark and the Ferengi are great characters, and give a kind of Everyman perspective on the Star Trek/Roddenberry vision. Quark/Odo and Quark/Garak have great interplay.
Garak was a brilliantly conceived character, with a back story revealed little by little. If I could make one change, I'd add a reference to Andrew Robinson's other back story, the killer in Dirty Harry. - maybe just a chance reference to feeling lucky.
I love ds9 but mine would be stargate.
Nice analysis. For me, however, I would say that one of the top reasons that DS9 (my favorite Trek) is better than new Trek is ACTING. All of the actors in DS9 are outstanding. On the other hand, I tried to watch Discovery but found the acting to be wooden and uninspired. It was so bad that I thought I was watching an SNL Trek parody at first. I had to shut it off.
Abrams' plan to leave the prime universe untouched would have been smarter if he hadn't created his parallel reality by blowing up one of the major factions IN THE PRIME UNIVERSE!
Dude, couldn't agree more. The last point might be the most important! We're TRAPPED, the story sucks, the writing sucks, and its one story. We can't get out. Now just imagine if THESE writers had to come up with 24-26 seperate stories per season how bad they would be!
Great video. Where DS9 was showing how the utopian rules could bend and break when put under extreme pressure, new Trek is just a different world. Even simple things like respect for rank and chain of command seem to have been thrown out of the window as they are inconvenient. Do you think Riker would have incapacitated Picard so as to disobey a direct order, all whilst not in any direct immediate danger? To attack another race as well. Madness. Jason Isaacs as Captain Lorca was amazing though.
Why does new Trek suck compared to DS9?
DS9 had competent writers.
Out of a majority of the characters on Star Trek even though seven and nine was incredibly gorgeous, she did have the most character development out of almost all the characters on Star Trek. From getting out of the collective to gaining her glimpse of humanity. And it was incredible to go on that journey with her and understand her motivation and her struggle with grasping who she was as a person.
It did not matter if she was a female board it was incredible glimpse of humanity no matter what your gender or who you identify as....
I still watch Scorpion 1&2 and The Gift about once a year. Her acting, showing her grief and loneliness is fabulous.
My biggest problem with DS9 is that it opened the door, however unintentionally, to the hacks.
DS9 was the best trek show. The writting was great and it was the natural extension of TNG which was the second best trek show. New trek is not good they runied Capt Picard humanlity. Strange new worlds should be better.
Nice analysis. I've struggle with why I hate ST: Discovery so much and you've hit upon a lot of it. Now that I've watched Season 3, I wish they had just started with ST: D a thousand years in the future. At least then the dystopian feel could be explained. But this show, this crew, these stories, were all dystopian *before* the Enterprise left space dock.
And of course, don't get me started on continuity issues.
I think liking the characters goes a long way to keep you interested. Also episodic is a great way to go with lesser writers. While seasonal story requires excellent writers. But I'm biased only liking TOS, TNG and DS9.
Thanks for this video I totally agree with everything you said, I didn't know why I didn't like new Trek but you broke it down very nicely. I'm a Massive DS9 fan. I'd there anything else you would recommend that's as good as DS9 out there? I've watched all the other franchises. Ppl say BSG but I don't think it's the same as DS9 or the other good and old treks (voyegor etc...)
Great analysis. I hadn't realized it until now but you're totally right there are very few likable characters in New Trek. Episode 2 of Strange New Worlds gave me some hope that it will be more like Trek in many more ways though. Here's hoping...
You could have summed this up in one word: Writing. DS9 has great writing. The new Trek does not.
"fitting into the established universe"
THE BASICS XD
i just cracked up when you said this hahahaha
Thank you! You put into words what I have felt about new trek! I just don’t think people producing new trek get Star Trek at all. Great video!
I love it, keep up the good work 🙏
The problem with the O'Brian in prison episode is that DS9 is about him overcoming his traumer and him overcoming the issues to get better.
I would guess that the episode was focused more on the exploration of being in virtual 'solitary confinement' for a long period of time, and its effects on the human spirit. As its was a brief period of time, his physical body was still intact, although his mental capacity was beaten and traumatized.
If there were follow-up to that episode, I believe that they would've touched upon his recovery. Although for all we know, the Federation had techniques to help him recover from the implanted memories of that experience.
Nevertheless, great acting on the part of Colm Meaney.
You forgot an "allegedly" in there talking about Garak
New "trek" suffers from "the message." Star trek did have an overall message (the future is something to look forward to because it's going to be good...with challenges) however the new stuff tosses that message out the window and replaces it with the woke message/agenda...and whenever the writing runs dry - space battles/lense flares/beams of colorful light/explosions/Dutch angles/shaky cam/quick zooms (horribly manufactured tension). No one writes the "we are reprensitives of starfleet and the federation. We have just discovered a new alien species, our options: [should we: [1 - establish communication, 2 - start invisible observations, 3 - invade/destroy, 4 - avoid, 5 - exploit, 6 - give medical assistance, 7 - negotiate cease fire, 8 - R&R...to here these options again, press - 9] anymore. Now it's: "AAHHH! Baddies, shoot to kill, women are superior, men are stupid because...because...it just is *bang-bang-boom-boom*
The answer to fixing Star Trek would be IMO Manny Coto. That guy knows how to make great Trek. Paramount, if you ever listen to anyone, get Manny Coto involved.
Sadly, Manny Coto has died
Deep Space 9 takes Star Trek and through a kind of deconstruction analyzes the franchise, but always remained respectful. How good is the Federation really? Are compromises always the right way, or is there a point where a compromise would go too far? Where is that point? When pushed to the breaking point, can they hold on to their principles? What are they willing to sacrifice for the greater good or just survival?
Kurtzman-trek just throws everything that is Star Trek out the window and ignores everything it ever stood for so Kurtzman can tell his own story however he feels, with the just a very thin coat of Star Trek and the label only being slapped on it so they can get free viewers and puplicity without having to earn either.
Also to see whether dark can work for Star Trek, just look at Wrath of Khan. Probably the single most popular Star Trek production there is and it is very dark, very good and 100% Star Trek.
Exactly. There were plenty of classic Star Trek episodes that were *_very_* dark:
Balance of Terror
The Conscience of the King
The Doomsday Machine
The Taste of Armageddon
Let That Be Your Last Battlefield
A Private Little War
The Menagerie
Errand of Mercy
The Enterprise Incident
And even more. But all of them were fundamentally Star Trek.
"Let's share our feelings" Trek
Great character building (both heroes and villains) and shades of grey.
I totally agree....DS9 WAS ABOUT THE PERSONS.. great characters great stories enough space and ships. Strenge New world is getting the closest to the old series.
Simply put Avery Brooks was selected for the job because he was the best man for the job. New trek positions were filled because they were the right color for the job
because DS9 made an effort to resemble trek.
whereas New Trek has went out of its way to stand apart.
thanks for the great video. it was objective while being rooted in Star Trek. there are some youtubers who are ranting and raving about their own politics… but those don’t usually represent what makes star trek special either and those aren’t fair criticisms of new trek either.
This is a great analysis and comparison. Still relevant (sadly) even after a second season of Picard.
The writers are professional victims. They don't like humanity.
The reason darker storytelling worked for DS9 and not Disco is because it was established early and thoroughly that this was NOT Federation territory.
This was on the relative fringes, and largely unprotected space.
A place largely devoid of Starfleet's oversite, and notably, its laws.
Sisko himself points this out in his classic and flamboyantly flagrant "peace in paradise" speech to an Admiral (who largely ignored him).
Disco is just dark for the sake of it being dark.
Every single damn thing that comes along is a potential universe ending event.
It's just shit writing.
"The Burn"? C'mon.
They also completely forgot a major lore point that the Romulans haven't used a standard warp drive since before the Dominion War, as they proved inefficient for ships as large as the D'Deridex Class Warbird.
And thus would have been completely unaffected by The Burn.
They'd have swooped in and completely overtaken the Federation and Klingons had such a crippling event occurred and were not rectified quickly.
Trek is not Trek without Berman and Braga.
Braga whom, as I recall, now writes for The Orville.
So true, yet another reason why 'The Orville' is brighter and little more like Trek is like what you said, because of Braga.
Totally fantastic :D
Excellent analysis.
My favorite treks are DS9, Voyager, Original Star Trek, and TNG.
Sir, you are 100% right about everything.
Absolutely hit the nail on the head. New 'star trek' has completely thrown away the optimism of the originals. The Orville has actually been more star trek than star trek!
Even with what modern trek is promising, ie action and effects, I still get 10 times more thrills from watching the visuals and effects of the Borg battle in the beginning of First contact or the mutara nebula clash or Enterprise in the V'ger cloud. So what's the point of all these light flares and overly CGId crap?
YES to the everything said in this video.
It’s sad when lower decks actually gets it with family guy animation and the live action things WITH OG CAST MEMBERS does not.
IMO, section 31 does not actually exist. It's allowed for in the original Starfleet charter. Guys like Sloan and that Admiral just know each other and talk to each other. The original charter gives them justification to do what they think needs to be done, and they just call themselves section 31.
New trek characters act like children with no adults to reprimand. The swearing and uncaring attitudes with no consequences to their actions. I loved every character in ds9. I cannot say that about new trek.
Unfortunately there has been so much bad trek in the last few years that the franchise (post-Enterprise) is dead to me. I was really looking forward to Picard and Discover. I managed half a season of Picard and two half-episodes of Discovery.
Thank you very much. Totally agree with you .
I like it. Subscribed.
I know this video was made before it came out, but Strange New Worlds is a lot better than the other two, with likable characters, good plots, episodic format, actual exploration, and comeradery.
YOU'RE RIGHT , TOO DARK
Deep Space 9 stories might be dark but they were never cynical.
In the Pale Moonlight is my favorite episode about morality in war. We find Captain Sisko trying to justify his deception and methods of trying to bring the Romulans into the war against The Dominion.
And there's nothing like Garak helping anyone out when they're faced with one's dilemma of a moral decision . . . great episode!
Personnally I think Picard is a lesser offender cuz shit has been happening to mess-up paradise; the Dominion war, the destruction of the Romulans home world and how it affected other powers in the quadrant are elements that kind of explain some of those darker tones.
On the other hand Discovery is supposed to be set in "happy trek" time in aproximatly the same time of TOS but is far more dark for no logical reasons. And when adressed with this apparent incoherence did they try to lighten the show to fit the time? Nope they threw the damn ship and show in the 32th century when no comparaison can be made and they can be as shitty dark as they want to.
Hope they do better with Strange New World, have'nt seen the first episode yet but I hope they lighten up that one so it fit with is timeframe in cannon.