Army Painter Speed Paint - Citadel Contrast Replacement for Epic Waterloo & ACW Armies?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 มี.ค. 2022
- Army Painter Speed Paint Citadel Contrast Replacement for Epic Waterloo & ACW Armies?
#armypainterspeedpaint #armypainter #speedpaint #citadelcontrast #contrastpaint #contrastorspeedpaint #armypainter #citadel #warhammer #warlordgames #epicbattleswaterloo #epicbattlesacw #paintingtutorial #blackpowderepicbattles #gamesworkshop
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Good revieuw, I do like te happy face that appeared in the first paint XD remined me of Bob Ross.
Thank you 😂
such an amazing job Stu! and very effective!
Cheers Sam
Thanks for posting. It is good to see how these work before investing in them.
Thank you watching. They have uses, but definitely reasons more thought and planing than Contrast.
I saw Speedpaint was coming out so decided to grab a set, I’ve never painted before but have a heap of board games minis that need painting. I like your videos on the topic :) and have create my own to share my learning experience. Thanks for this vid, helps me to hit the ground running :)
Thank you 🙂
Thank you for the very helpful review.
Always a pleasure doing them, glad it’s been of use 🙂
Been looking forward to seeing you finally use these! I've had my Speedpaints for a few weeks, but I've only used the red and the brown so far. Will have to try all of them on a few full strips of the Epic Scale Waterloo. One thing I did notice with the red any way was that it seems to not be as stable and tight as the Contrast reds. What I mean is that when I put a very tiny amount on my brush and touched it to a jacket, it spread out quickly and seemingly much more than the same amount of Contrast would. Was almost like it "bled" into a wider circle before I could control it and I couldn't keep it within the confines of the detail area I was attempting to paint. But as I said, I've barely used them so I definitely can't make a broader judgement of them until I do!
Yep the viscosity helps them flow, but with far less control.
very helpful - thanks
Thank you Norm 🙂
I know you're a Bolt Action guy and you seem to enjoy smaller scales, have you considered doing some Flames of War painting on the channel? I'd be interested to see your take on that. Also, I used your 8th Army guide to paint up some Imperial Guard proxies in a French Foreign Legion style and it turned out great, so thanks for that!
FOW is definitely something I may consider in the future, and those new starters are amazing value. It currently down to my own personal hobby bandwidth that I haven’t up until now, work and family life have been so busy since Christmas that my current projects are progressing so slowly, so I’m trying to ignore new shiny things for a while. I love small scale, and painting tanks, so I’m sure it will get more and more tempting.
Interesting to see. I only use contrast for some color mixing, but mostly for inking. I was thinking of getting some of these as I need to replace a contrast color. It’s certainly worth a shot for how much cheaper they are. But if you plan to layer them, it seems like a varnish in between layers is the key
Yeah like anything I think they mostly just need time to get used to and find out what they can do. They’re great through their airbrush, a bit like using inks. By no means to all the colours have a noticeable reactivation issue either, I’ve used some at 28mm like I would contrast and had no issues, it’s in the application to small detailed areas where they might not be as well suited as contrast. I deliberately focused this video around how well they substitute for contrast using the method in my tutorials, the red obviously being a bit of a problem as it looks like it may require a varnish before touch ups and some other parts can be painted, but with other colours it’s fine.
Funnily enough I’ve picked the darker blue released in the mega set, I’m still hoping it might be a substitute for Contrast Ultramarine. I’ve used it on a 28mm model and have had no issues touching up with white and greys (loads of that needed with the French Epics), so hoping when I get to do my Epic test it will be good.
Another company that makes paint like this is Scale 75 with their instant colour range, it might be worth giving them a try? but they are also thinner than contrasts.
I love Scale 75, I think almost 50% of my paints are from them. I’ve only tried one of the instant colour range though, it was good, but more of glaze in a traditional sense I found, there’s something about Contrast and Speedpaint that make them stand out a little. I need to try more of the Instant colour range though, I think I will use it, but maybe not as much as I do the others for smaller scale painting.
Hi Stuart.. I know it's now two years since you did this video. Was the bleeding due to the Army Painter paints needing longer to dry than Citadel Contrast? The thought occurs that they can't bleed at all if they're dry. Maybe 'speed' is a relative term and they're faster than normal Army Painter paints and the whole Army Painter range dries slower than Citadel.
Drying time wasn’t a huge factor, some of the first generation army painter speed paints ‘reactivated’ after days worth of drying time, a varnish layer was the only true way of safely avoiding it. It’s all been resolved now though with their 2.0 range.
Glad I watched this. Will stick with contrast paints.
It’s a safer option for now I think, I’ll report back as I’ve tried more.
What brushes do you use? Also is there a citadel set like of the ones you usually use? Big fan as always!
Cheers!
I use Broken Toad Mk3 and Rosemary & co series 33. I prefer the Broken Toads, but occasionally they’re out of stock for a few weeks, and I was using a size 1 Rosemary & co in this video because I can’t get a replacement right now. In my personal opinion Citadel brushes are not as good as either, and they’re more expensive than Rosemary & co as well so I find no reason to buy them.
Have you looked at the Scale 75 Speed Colours? A comparison with GW and Army Painter would be great
I’ve looked at them but not tried them. I’ve got a lot of Scale 75, including the entire Scalecolour range, so very fond of them. The reviews I’ve seen tend to suggest they don’t work in quite the same way as Contrast, so it’s put me off so far. I will grab some to try at some point though.
I’ll just have to hope my hand doesn’t shake. But if a standard paint will correct it, that’s fine. But if I haven’t got any ,I won’t bother or just pick and choose those that will save time.
Absolutely
Also keen to know why you dropped the grey step in the zenithal highlight?
Do you feel it is not required on individual figs vice units or now feel it is surperflous with quick style paints?
I’ve not used grey as part of the zenithal preparation for my Epic Waterloo, white over black works very nicely, the scale means the extra colour isn’t quite as important.
I used grey on my Epic ACW, but that was partly because it formed the base grey of the Rebel uniforms. For 28mm models it all depends on the project, sometimes I use grey, sometimes grey and white, other times just white.
Thanks for this, I’m sticking with contrast. Not confident enough to do British so will be waiting for the Prussians to fight my ever growing French.
I think sticking with Contrast is definitely a safe option. Hopefully not long for the Prussians now!
@@MiniatureRealms I almost forgot the Prussians will need release for Waterloo to be done properly. Yet another organ I will have to sell I suppose! Thanks for looking into the speed painter sets. Like CTID I will be sticking with the devils I know I think.
The Prussians will be great, can’t wait to put some videos out on them. Don’t blame you at all for sticking with what you know.
It's an interesting problem with this range, or specifically certain colours. I can't help but think that this is down to the formulation and the length of time it takes for the wetter second colour to dry, when compared to something like the citadel range, but then you also showed that the citadel paints reactivate, implying that it's down to the original paint where the issue lies. I can't say I'm sold on these, I think as painters we need to have confidence in the paints and how they behave.
One use I can see, is for wet blending techniques, where the reactivation of the paint might really help to blend the colours. This might need some refining so as not to get a mix rather than a gradient if that makes sense
I think the confidence part is the key, it makes me a little nervous that years of learnt painting behaviour (with normal paint not just Contrast) doesn’t apply here - not being able to add another colour on top without varnishing first is huge.
Fascinating video Stuart. Ive gone fully over to Army Painter Warpaints. I got a massive set with all their colours, original plan was to swap them out to finished citadel paints. Nothing wrong with the citadel paints a such but the drying out and pots are an issue for me. The dropper bottles and the Stainless steel activator ball is just so much better than the citadel pot. Warpaints are just as good and consistency is excellent. Citadel Contrast I have no issue with. I was looking at Speed paints. Wondering if the AP war paint primer over their blood red speedpaint will work and stop the bleed through? Great video as always.
I love dropper bottles, it’s one of the reasons I use so few Citadel paints. At some point I may grab the Army Painter Mega set, I’ve used a few and they seem pretty good, just very happy with all the Vallejo and Scale 75 I already have I guess. As far as speed paint goes I’m still using them, I’ve found it’s the warmer colours (reds/lighter browns etc) that reactive more, though they all rub off/wash off more than contrast, so I’d say the only way to solve this is through varnishing, and that may mean after base coats if you intend on adding lighter colours over the top.
@@MiniatureRealms my original plan was to swap out citadel paints for AP warpaints as they ran out, which many of them are now. Annoyingly so many of my citadel pots have caked up so badly I've just tossed them. I looked on the AP website under speedpaints and they do recommend the matt varnish and or drying time before going over the colours. I agree with you on that front that hardly makes them speedpaints. I will try them but jury is out. Citadels contrst Im very happy with as they dont have the issues that the base or layer paints do.
Some are definitely fine, I’ve not had any issues with the blues, so it’s just a matter of finding which ones work best for which jobs.
I'm not worried about adding highlights to models that I use speed paints on. As they're designed to be used as a base, highlight and wash in one it would for me at least defeat the object. Always enjoy your content Stuart thanks for another interesting watch.
I don't care what it was designed to do, I care what it can do.
And most people (to a lesser or greater degree) put paint over contrast paints.
Thank you Markuz. I understand your point, and yes if you use them as designed you may run into less problems. However one thing that could effect anyone using them without highlighting after, you may still make a mistake and need to go back to white in order to add the correct colour, I was having the issue with the red while doing this. So if you never make a mistake then cool, but if you do you might be forced to varnish and fix the paint before you can touch up and re-apply.
To be clear, I don’t hate them at all, but they’re not as versatile as contrast for me and the way I intended to use them. I will save them for larger scales and projects with the airbrush I think.
@@MiniatureRealms As a suggestion, try using an Enamel Based Flat White to touch up small mistakes or an Enamel Based Matte Varnish (Testors has both); The reactivation is water based, so Enamel may be an option for consideration.
Good idea, I can see the logic here. If I didn’t have a ready alternative in Contrast paint I might try this, but this is an extra stage (one where I’m now introducing washing brushes in thinners), so for this is application I’d likely switch to Contrast for the problematic colours.
To be clear, I’m not saying the paints are no use, I was testing them in response to requests, and in the context of using them in the same method I have been for using contrast (in particular with these small scale Epic miniatures). Part of the process involves touching up the prime back to white/light grey again, and there’s where the red was problematic, so I’ll probably just reach for Contrast Blood Angels Red for that job, I’m still using the paints, just more cautiously.
Have you tried other paints for touch ups? Maybe Vallejo's acrylic polyurethane primer will provide a better barrier to prevent the blead through then the Citadel Base paint.
I’ve used Vallejo model colour, model air, game air, Scale 75 and Citadel with them, all with similar results - seems to be the lighter shades that cause most issues, whites/greys etc.
@@MiniatureRealms Sounds like you've tried the entire gamut of hobby paints! I guess I'll be sticking with Contrast Paint until something is found, as I'm constantly touching up between color in this tiny scale! Thanks for this video, as I was eyeing up speed paints for a future purchase.
Yep it’s the touching up that the biggest problem for me at this scale, I don’t want to add time to my process by having to do a varnish stage after base coats, just so I can touch up. If I find an amazing colour in the range I may use it, but I won’t default to them sadly.
I'm just going to grab them for terrain, as the bleeding effect is scary on models
That’s not a bad idea. I’ve used them some more now, and on some 28mm models as well, it’s definitely not all the colours that reactivate like that, so I think it’s about getting used to which ones work for what jobs. My review was certainly more in the context of how I’ve been using Contrast for painting Epic/small scale miniatures, and so far it’s only really the red I’d not swap for the Contrast version because of the issue, not found any noticeable issues with the others using the methods I’ve been using. I’m just being cautious (and I’ve never really had to think about this kind of reaction with any paint before).
Glad you did this. Definite pass for me. Definitely prefer the less runny Contrast paints for the control and that reactivating issue is a real pain. A few of the colours are a bit off too and the ones that are OK the Contrast version is just as good.
Out of interest what do you mount your minis on for painting? Been trying to fathom what it is. An empty bottle with spare lids topped with “orange tac”? Or are they purpose painting handles?
It’s a Redgrass Games painting handle, you can get extra mounts, and it comes with orange tac.
@@MiniatureRealms Thanks for that. Ordered, along with 4 spare tops :) Been using a GW one for a while but, while they're OK for GW figures (at a push), the spring loading design isn't particularly user friendly or effective IMO. Othwerwise it's been a range of corks, bottle tops or whatever LOL so this will come in handy for quick swaps between Epic half sprues.
Yep this is what they’re perfect for, means my desk isn’t a sea of cork anymore 😂
@@MiniatureRealms Got expensive drinking wine too. For every 3 bottles I uncorked 2 of the corks would never stand up properly LOL.
😂 Most of my wine comes with a screw cap these days 🤣
Hi Stuart a very interesting video I've been looking forward to seeing the army painter speed paint, but not great with the bleed through/ reactivation problems. I wonder if they'd react with varnish ?
As I paint my varnish on with a brush I'd worry that it might reactivate whilst applying.
Also would like to say I've recently bought from tinywargames a 4×4 sheet of roads and rivers separate sheets ,in PVC they make specific sizes for 6mm / 10-15mm and 28mm the 4x4 sheets are £20 each so pretty good value and really helpful firm .
Thanks again for another informative and enjoyable video
They will reactivate with brush on definitely, you’d be best trying spray on varnish but that still made cause some blending/bleeding issue as they reactivate very easily, even days after being painted on as one review I saw showed.
I’d be concerned about brush on varnish for sure, but I’ve not tried it myself.
I’ve looked at Tiny Wargames in the past, but unfortunately I’ve had my single worst online shopping experience ever from them, so I can’t see me ordering from them ever again I’m afraid.
@@TheCrookedMoon
Hi and thanks for the advice, I think I'll be sticking with contrast then for the time being.
I did see a guy do a review on TH-cam and he put the colours on paper let them dry then ran a damp brush over them and they all reactivated to a certain degree, some were worse than others, really is disappointing as they work out a lot cheaper.
Hope they find a way to sort it out.
I’m sure they’re taking this on board, hopefully a ‘new improved formula’ will be out in the future.
@@MiniatureRealms I'm sorry to hear that Stuart, I will say I was starting to panic after I purchased the games mat with them as it was delayed quite a bit.
But I phoned re the roads and rivers and the guy was really helpful so went with a 6 mm roads and a 6mm rivers sheet both 4x4 and the same for 15mm they've arrived after just a few days, well yesterday as a matter of fact one week total from ordering, today is going to be the grand UN tubing lol
Hopefully everything is fine.
Re the speed paints, I hope they might be able to sort out the problem as a few reviews have hit upon this bleeding/ reactivation problem.
The fact they are cheaper seems a major selling point but the fact you have to put these on a pallet as opposed to contrast which I use from the pot means alot of paint will be wasted, I've got around the spillage issue with the contast pots by making a holder out of spare spure it also holds the lid back at 90° so I can use the lid to get small amounts of paint rather than dipping into the pot.
I find on balance with dropper bottles the amount you waste is no more that what dries out and evaporates when leaving a citadel pot open (which I do as well). It’s one of those things we’re you choose what fits best for the way you work I guess. The price is good, but the potential issues with re-activation balances that for me personally. I will use speed paint, but the fact it looks like I may need to varnish before safely highlighting or touching up, may mean I reach for a corresponding Contrast paint over a speed paint.
I wonder - now that a month has passed - if the reactivation would still happen.
I’ve no idea, I’d hope not, but that’s quite some drying time 😂
They’re definitely not all a problem though, I’ve just used Cloudburst Blue as the basis for French jackets and I can use it just like I would contrast. They’re good paints, they just need a little caution with certain processes.
I have seen people using 5sec hairdryer and putting a 2 coat over the whole mini with no problem.
Yeah it’s an odd one, I thought it was odd myself until I experienced it myself while recording that video. I’ve only had problems with the red and the brown in the starter set, and the brown was after 4hrs (the video is obviously recorded in chunks with breaks in).
To be clear, I’m not saying the paints are no use, I was testing them in response to requests, and in the context of using them in the same method I have been for using contrast (in particular with these small scale Epic miniatures). Part of the process involves touching up the prime back to white/light grey again, and there’s where the red was problematic, so I’ll probably just reach for Contrast Blood Angels Red for that job, I’m still using the paints, just more cautiously.
I picked up the Speed Paint Starter Set at a local hobby shop today, and started experimenting with various colors on a line of French infantry and a mounted officer (for Black Powder Epic / 15mm). Gotta say, I'm not impressed. The "hardened leather" brown color I find is really good for horse bodies; the coverage is really good and I'm happy with the contrast. However, every other color is a disappointment, including the "blood red" and "highlord blue." I will not be using these for mass painting Napoleonics; the colors are just inconsistent and you can't control these paints very well. Guess I'm sticking with my Vallejo acrylics :/
I’ve used them a little bit more now, I do like them, but they take a little bit more work than Citadel Contrast. The viscosity means that you have a little less control, and they’re still remains the reactivation problem with some colours. But overall they have their place in my wider range of paints now, as a tool that I will use for some projects, but I could definitely live without them and make do with Citadel Contrast and regular paint. Also for me both Speed Paint and Citadel Contrast really show their worth over a zenithal highlight, I doubt I’d use them over a flat prime very often.
Never considered contrast paints for smaller scale. Will give it a bash.
They’re great over a zenithal pre-shade, gives you a really nice base and shade to highlight from.
What kind of primer did you use?
How long did you wait before painting over that red?
How long did you wait before adding those highlights?
On camera you barely shook any of the paints. Did you shake them for a long time off camera?
Vallejo black primer through the airbrush, game air white zenithal after, the models had been prepared on my desk for over a week.
I waited until the paint was dry to the touch at first (but the issue with the white over the brown on the horse was 3 hours after). The idea was to compare them to how I use them with Contrast paint and the the method I’ve used in tutorials for Epic Battles miniatures on the channel, so I treated them the same way deliberately. But it was still happening after 3hrs, for me that’s crazy.
Oh and yes I cut a lot of the shaking paint out of the video, they were well shaken before I pressed record for each section, I did a quick shake mostly out of habit, they were well shaken.
Honestly I’d love it to be something simple like shaking or drying, I’d seen the good and bad reviews and really want these to work alongside Contrast, but the issues are there and real if you want to paint in a certain way.
@@MiniatureRealms ok. Thanks. Many of the vids showing the most reactivation seem to be using satin, Contrast, airbrush or white ink for their priming/zenithal. Seems like those using something with more tooth are having less issue. Could be coincidence but it will be the first thing I check when my mega-set comes in. I'm hopeful it won't be a big deal, because most of the results I'm seeing from these look very noticeably better than Contrast. I'm hoping I can ditch my Contrast paints. Well see, these are cheap enough there's nonreason not to try them regardless
Absolutely, and I will be buying more, but probably just by the pot now. I really want them to work, I can almost accept having to do a matte varnish after base coats to be safe, the biggest issue for me is not being able to touch up by making an area white/grey/cream again before I can add another colour back over the top. That’s by far the most concerning for me, the whole point of these paints is that you paint them over a light base colour, if when applying one colour you make a mistake that you need to ‘touch up’ before then next colour, but can’t because the layer you’re adding reacts with the speed paint, that for me means in fails in its primary use. It basically means you can’t make a mistake, or if you do you have to seal that mistake under varnish before you can fix it.
It’s interesting what you say about priming, my guy instinct is that’s not what’s causing the issue. The reactivity appears to be with the speed paint layer and the one placed directly on top (and that’s only been noticeable when it’s a lighter colour than the base layer of speed paint). I’ve not noticed any reaction painting onto the prime and zenithal layer.
If it is the primer, and they come out with a recommended list then that would be good. Not sure it would save it for me, I need to zenithal highlight for my work, it would severely limit its uses for me, but could be perfect for those looking for it to just work for a quick paint job.
@@MiniatureRealms Army Painter did say don't use a smooth or satin primer, but didn't get into specifics. There are also many videos where they do multiple coats of SP or do highlights or touchups without issue. One even paints a rainbow of colors on a mini, waits few hours, then scrubs it with a soaking wet brush on camera with no problem. Some who had a problem when they only waited 15, but not when they waited a few hours to cure etc... just weird so many people are having a different experience.
Yeah it’s very odd, the initial videos I saw look extremely promising, and I honestly thought I would try them and find all the chat about reactivation was overblown, I was genuinely surprised to find the issue. Bear I mind, I only had the issue with the red and the brown in my video, I painted over the blue with no issues, using the same grey as I did on the red. I’m hoping to find some colours stable enough to use the way I’d like. If it’s a matter of having to wait 24hrs for them to dry enough to paint over them then that’s cool, but likely not good enough for me sadly.
Apparently, you need to spray gloss varnish after it dries to continue painting over the speed paint.
Gloss? Not even matte?
I was aware that varnish may seal the paint enough to paint over, just wanted to see how it worked if I tried to paint the way I would over Contrast (the way I do for any other paint for that matter). I can see me applying a matte varnish mid painting if the results I were getting from a particular colour made it worth it, but I won’t lie that’s a huge pain and a whole extra step that will take time and halt a project at awkward times. The biggest pain though is not even being able to touch up base colours with primer, so if you make a mistake you have to varnish before fixing it. If I had to varnish after a whole base coat in all colours was finished that would not be so bad, but I’m doing that I couldn’t make any mistakes 🤷♂️. This paint has its uses for sure, and some of the colours are amazing, but the limitations are glaring for painting small scale the way I do, I’ll save these mostly for other jobs I think.
Oh man, that whole reactivation issue is a big drawback for me. I mean it's not the biggest deal to have to do a coat of varnish over the first layer of it, but it's another step right in the middle of painting that adds to the overall time. Will have to see if indeed the reactivation issue is prevalent with this range. I hope not!
Yep varnishing at that stage isn’t something I’d want o have to do often, and if I did I’d want it to be a complete base coat over the whole miniature. That sounds all well and good, but that means no touch ups, get a bit in the wrong place and you can’t fix until after you’ve varnished.
I just heard from them last night they lost a whole truck's worth in a Traffic accident . the driver survived but i dont know any other details . They didnt say more
Oh no that’s horrible, hopefully everyone is ok. Stock in the UK seems to be ok, not sure where the accident was. Can get single bottles of most as well now, I picked a darker blue from the mega set, very good from early trials, and doesn’t seem to reactive like the red either which is great.
Have to admit I like these paints but boy, what a pain to brush varnish!!
Even having to airbrush varnish after the base coat is a bit of a pain, not something I’d always want to do if I can grab a similar colour from the Contrast range and not have to bother.
I am sticking with contrast, these seem a bit useless for my needs
Totally understandable.
It appears from my limited use so far with them that they are not as easy to control as the Contrasts are. HOWEVER, much of that could also come down to what kinds of details you use them on. It may turn out that I end up using the Contrasts for most details, but then also supplement them with some of the Speedpaints on details where you have a strong ridge or border where the Speedpaint can't "escape" and bleed over. One example in this video is when Stew is using the brown leather on that horse. You notice that strong ridge the saddle creates. THAT is where you would want to use Speepaint. The horse itself is sort of contained in that there are strong ridges everywhere around him. You've got strong ridgeds where the horse's tackle is, as well as the saddle. So you could do a strong coat of that brown over that horse and simply "abutt" it up against those strong ridges, and it can't bleed onto the saddle, rider or the tackle.
Over a few years of using the Contrasts, I learned the same dynamic as I got more experienced with them.
So for me, the Speedpaints will get used because I can pretty much instantly recognzie which part of a model would be suited for them vs. the Contrasts and vice versa.
It was really nice on the horse, and of some colours are really that effective I may still use them, will just have to plan a varnish stage into the process. But that’s such a pain.
Been watching 300mins...... no ACW miniatures..........
That’s a long time!
The video is about how the paint behaves on Epic Scale miniatures compared to Contrast. At the time those were the two Epic ranges, I’d done a lot of tutorials for both ranges using Contrast. This was more about if they could work with the same techniques at that scale, rather than the actual miniatures tested on.