LoRa Meshtastic Range Test, Portable Relay & Your Questions - Off-Grid Communication
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 มิ.ย. 2024
- Here we go! Follow-on video from last week. You want to know ranges? Lets talk about it. Also I'll answer many of your questions to get you started with Meshtastic.
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#HRCC #Meshtastic #LoRa
0:00 Intro
0:37 Range of LoRa and Meshtastic
2:20 Waterproof Relay Setup
5:16 Suburb Range Test
8:00 How to solder the screen on
10:48 Questions from the comments answered! - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Once more, for the people in the back:
"on grid" or "off grid" terms have nothing to do with any particular feature or capability.
These terms are used *solely* to describe whether or not a system is integrated with public infrastructure.
Solar power? OFF GRID - not because you can't get lots of electricity from solar, but because you are literally not required to be connected to the electrical supply grid.
WiFi in Infrastructure mode? ON GRID (with the caveat that we mean an AP connected to the internet) You're connected to infrastructure! it's in the freaking name!
WiFi in ad-hoc mode? OFF GRID - devices communicate directly with one another without the need for a router
RAIN BARREL FOR DRINKING WATER? OFF GRID
City Water Supply? ON GRID
Texting over LoRa? IT'S DECENTRALIZED AND REQUIRES NO INFRASTRUCTURE YOU ABSOLUTE WALNUT IT IS OFF GRID BY DEFINITION REGARDLESS OF YOUR WIDDLE FEEFEES ABOUT TEXTING.
SMDH
Well said. 👍
@@HamRadioCrashCourse sorry for getting a little heated in your comments.
@@StripeyType salty much?
@@ultimatums1 I'm O.G. sea salt.
Like I know and lived through the sequence of global events that brought the term "salty" into common parlance for English-speaking civilians and was salty before *that*.
I was, once upon a time, *professionally* salty. It was my job.
@@StripeyType at least you are willing to admit your childish behavior.
Lots of good questions answered here! Happy to colab if there are other questions.
Next test, use 3 T-Beams, one at your home, one in your car, and one on a drone. Drive out until out of range, then fly the drone up 4 or 500 ft and try again. Keep going until out of range.
400 AGL is the celing for drones in the U.S. (if you want to be leagle) But, yes that would be awesome!
I was thinking of doing something like this (using drone as antenna base), but I would like to keep the drone tethered to the ground with a super light weight power cable to keep the drone up indefinitely. It would depend on if I could find a 300ft power cable that isn't too heavy for the drone and can still handle the power.
Was thinking of trying the same thing please try this!
I was thinking of trying the same thing today- a DJI Mini should be able to lift a t-beam and 18650
@@ChristopherScanlan88 why not just use a ballon at that point?
Thanks for answering questions, providing a channel suggestion, and running a test. This is great! Really appreciated. +1 upvote
I love that every time I find a new project to start, you’ve just made a video covering it in great detail. 73!
Damn, am I that good?
Great videos on LoRa. You use basic language to describe the way it works which is great for someone like me who would definitely be considered ’green’. Sometimes too much information just causes me to lose interest because I don’t understand the jargon but thankfully you kept it simple which I personally appreciate.
I’m not into HAM but am interested in RC planes/FPV and will watch out for new developments in this field.
Thank you Josh and awesome videos from a Ham perspective introduction to LoRa. Just to add on to the conversation, we use LoRa(WAN) as an extension to the limited WiFi range on the devices we build using arduino and Pi to communicate. Some use cases are alerting of wandering cows beyond a limited area on farms by putting proximity tags on cows, humidity and temperature sensing in far away greenhouses from main building, etc the sky is the limit as to what can be developed and has very low energy consumption and very reliable all things considered. Thanks again Josh for very eloquently introducing this technology as a supplement to the Ham comms space.
Once again knocking it outta the park w this info. Intriguing concept. Got solar so I’m all in on this off grid comms. And this info is already 2 yrs old. The growth potential is amazing. Thanks again.
I hope you saw my last live stream with some of the devs!
I’ve got two and just soldered them up before watching this video. Your answers on the iPhone app was very helpful. Thanks!
Really cool stuff. Thank you Josh for yet another great and informative video.
Thank you!
I was about to comment range on the first video then I saw this link. 😁 Freaking awsome. Definitely answered all my questions.
Great video. I hope that everyone appreciates the effort you go to to make these videos. Well done.
Thank you!
I'm still in the learning/ info gathering stage. This was quite helpful, thanks! 👍🏻
Not being a HAM user, this is all good stuff Josh. Thanks for the breakdowns in both videos and any future videos as well. Very interesting tech.
FYI Ham is not an acronym, it's just a slang term for amateur radio.
@@CWGminer
High Antennas on Mountains.
Horrible At Music.
Happy to spend Any Money.
😁
If you're in Cerritos, we are practical neighbors. QTH is OC. 2 years ago, I built a lora telemetry transmitter for the Solar Cup boat race. I got about 3 miles with a ground plane at Skinner Lake, Temecula.
In Huntington Beach, I put the Transmitter on the roof of HBHS, and could get the signal at the end of HB the pier. I was using 900mhz 3db antenna at both ends.
Doing a large test with a similar set up here in the next week. Very excited 😊
How'd it go?
Great video! I have some T beams on order and am super excited to try them out. I’ve got a hunt on the north slope of Alaska planned for 2022 and hope to use them there.
How you gunna use this tech for that? Seems like you should just get a in reach
* Grabs popcorn. I love this LoRa stuff right now for some reason.
2 miles in a suburban environment seems pretty impressive for such a tiny little device. I live smack in the center of a roughly 4 mile by 4 mile town so I should be able to communicate from nearly anywhere in town except south of my home where the larger downtown buildings are located, and that's okay because no one goes there unless they're buying crack
It did three miles.
Interesting, because Meshtastic would work well for secretly contacting your dealer.
@@ancapftw9113 My weed guy is like 200 feet away. I could place an order with cans and string lol
@@djk8541 🙄
whats the point though
Thank you for these videos. I have no experience in radio/ lora comms, but am interested in trying it out now!!
Nice! Give it a go!
Great information, thanks. Although I don't understand everything yet I feel this technology has a great future.
Now… GPS+RSSI+data logging+drive around for hours+google heat map.
:) Great follow up video!
I could see this being a very handy tool to use in a neighborhood if there was a grid down situation (hurricanes are a thing here in FL). You could at least check on your neighbors and make sure they are OK or their roof isn’t leaking or whatever…
EXACTLY
Amazing detail! I appreciate you.
Thanks for doing these videos, I'm really interested in a LoRa network for a very rural area where cell service is very limited and not having to rely on radios for communications. The weatherproof box with a solar pannel looks very promising. I just wish these components are easier to find from US based sellers.
They're never going to be common thru US sellers.
They're made in China and open source so it's Shenzen, China.
Just choose an AliExpress seller with a +95% rating and wait a month.
For long range, remember that the data rate is slow!
You have the patience of Jobe my friend 😁 Fun stuff!
Great explanation of the grid 👍
Awesome, as always!
Great video. Since your first video on this I've been thinking of possible uses for staff communications at scouting events. Almost everyone has a smartphone today, but cell service is spotty at a lot of scout camps, so this offers a way to use a texting like service where there's no or limited cell service. The no license part makes it much easier to use when the majority of the group aren't hams. I had thought of trying to use APRS in this situation, but LoRa really looks like a much easier to implement solution. With APRS you need an HT, TNC (assuming you didn't go with a higher end HT with it built in) and most often cables to connect. LoRa is much simpler, just the LoRa device and Bluetooth to the phone, tablet, iPad, etc.
That is a PERFECT use case. We're not trying to be super spies or talk around the world. Just trying to keep a bunch of kids alive. 😂
Another option would be that Motorola makes a FRS/GMRS radio that can send text and location data. They are like $50 each, and are also standard FRS radios so you can do voice. Not encrypted, but you shouldn't need that.
@@dissmani what model is that?
@@madbroindustries T800 series.
There are iPhone and android apps that you can download and will use wifi direct to communicate with each other. Range will obviously be less than lora
excellent videos,... The Last Ship, tv show on TnT, had a storyline where people were communicating using exactly this type of "service",... cool stuff to learn about. Could come in handy if shtf lol.
I definitely like the idea of LoRa. Especially being able to package this up in a waterproof box with a solar charger. I live in Albuquerque and we have mountains right near us. I'm wondering if I could place a setup on the mountain which has line of sight to the entire city and use the mountain peak like a repeater for other Lora boxes.
Yes you can. It would be a relay station instead of a repeater. You can bury the box with the LoRa device to keep it out of the sun, run a longer wire to an antenna in a tree, that would help to overcome any other obstacles in the way.
Did you ever get it up and running ? L
Going through all your videos. Great stuff. Thanks for taking the time to share.
One question - Where did you get your project clamp/vise? I'd love one like that for some of the small work I do.
It’s a cheap PCB vice off Amazon.
Great guide, thanks a ton for this!
Nice video, well done, thank you for sharing the knowledge with us :)
FYI the 3v3 is the 3 volt rail, the next is GND which is ground. Then
serial data pin : SDA (default is GPIO 21)
serial clock pin : SCL (default is GPIO 22)
Great content ! Would like to see how to combine LoRa with Raspberry Pi / Compute Module.
Thank you for clarification 👍🖖
Just found your channel and liking it thanks for your efforts sir. Maybe a differently worded answer for "Bob" would be to just say you're off primary grid's and operating your own private local communications grid. Maybe some kind of translation issues or something that's losing the point that the phrase "Off Grid" isn't so much no grid as it is completely independent and isolated grid. If you're in an "off grid" home with solar, wind or even standard generator and powering the home and a separate workshop and or a water well you're on an electrical grid of your own creation, same goes for water etc etc😉
I am a ham myself (W8MLD), and I find these fascinating. I may give this a shot. I wonder if they can use tropo or are the frequencies too high? Plus being spread spectrum I guess it might not work all that well. I will check Andrias’ video for more information. Thanks
Great Video. One question, just to make sure I got this right. Every T beam works as a repeater for others, too. If I place one on my roof I could use this for my network but it would also improve the network for others by working as a relay station? And how many relays in a row can be used? Is there any limitation?
Thanks and best regards from Germany.
Josh, thanks for the demo and the little bit different video. I am not 100% understanding this, but I plan to go back to the other video you did to see what this is all about. De K1MAZ
"This is not a permanent solution, obviously :)..." aside at 4:15 earned my sub. I love me a "good enough" DIY project. Keep em coming!
Hah. Thanks!
this is badass. I think folks were genuinely confused about the fact it does not use wifi or cell service besides when you initially download the app.
Yep. That is right.
Hi Josh. Really appreciate your out and about driving tests. Adds a lot of practical information. LoRa T-beam seems to be a “do it yourself Gotenna”?
Thanks! Yes. It’s a diy goTenna with greater functionality though.
Food for thought: The European band for this LoRa device is 433 mhz. Here in the states, that's inside our 70cm amateur band (420-450mhz). Why then, other than the technicality about encryption, couldn't we use that device into a repeater or an amplifier? As I see it, it's a data signal, so why not?
I always thought I was absolutely terrible at soldering, who needs that flux junk anyway… Well when I realized what happens when you use flux it was like magic! I did the exact same routine as when I failed many times previously, but using the flux it just worked like magic
this is perfect for SARs operations to give out location quickly where signal is less than ideal
Perfect to bring wifi and messaging and voice to supressed people
I have the same view of its usefulness in such a situation. Also for disaster recovery where the infrastructure is damaged/destroyed (e.g., hurricane, tornado or earthquake).
I just wanted to know about encryption, thank you for clearing.
Regards
Great content, thank you!
Thank you for watching.
Excellent - is it possible to connect a much bigger screen. Perhaps even additional power to the screen.
"line-of-sight" explanation could use a bit of revamp. (wavelength vs physical composition/geometry in path. Antennae directivity, etc.) Might be another video. Great Job !!
Duct Tape solves everything. Regarding the question about encryption, In LoRaWAN, AES256 is the encryption for both signing/authentication from end node to network layer and encode/decode from end node to application layer. That is considered very strong encryption. It seems to have been implemented in either Meshtastic/RadioHead by someone who wasn't confident on his implementation of the AES256, so if you need ultra-secure, you might want to look over the implementation. But I'm sure the NSA could break it. They don't tell you, else they'd have to kill you.
I ordered a couple to use as a dog tracker. I was thinking of using aprs, but this looks a little easier, cheaper, and more secure to do.
Mount it in a plastic barrel attached to its collar like cartoon Saint Bernard!
a good way to put this is the lora device is acting like a modern version of CB radio... you can use anything with Bluetooth to access it (ancient laptop, super budget tablet, old smart phone... anything)
a good use for this is in a power outage since everything needed can be run off solar and batteries so you can still talk to people.
these can be strung together so for example, here he started having issues at 3miles from his home, if you have a friend the lives at 2.5 miles out and they have one, it can relay your signal so now you have closer to 5 miles in that direction... as more and more people get these devices they will slowly become a larger and larger network that is not tied to a company like cell phones and the internet.
that youtuber with the world record also has a video showing how to make simple walkie talkies that us a mumble server, you can set up a mumble server on a raspberry pi and build your own private long range network.
I'm planning on just a wireless BLE keyboard to send the text to the LoRa transceiver. It uses far less energy than any of those other devices. The AA batteries in mine have run for 2 years, so far.
In a future video can you PLEASE look into using LoRa and ATAK. I have 4 nodes incoming to me and can't wait to get them. I've already scoped out several high points to put nodes and 10W solar panels with 12Ah batteries to make them self contained. Having multiple ATAK devices using the mesh would be invaluable.
The atak device was destroyed....Roger Moore threw it over the mountainside in " for your eyes only "
Let us know how you get on
I’m looking into the same, I was looking at building a “repeater” node into a micro pelican case with a small solar panel to place on a nearby mountain and use ATAK while hiking.
@@PrebleStreetRecords let me know if that works out for you. I am very interested.
Which band did you choose and how well is it working?
Many ham radio videos encourage me to buy more gear, now I have to buy some acreage to create a use case for LoRa.
Hello, thank you for this. Great video and Laura. Many other links you listed don’t work though. Can you update them?
Plastic is a dielectric material and can have mild to significant affect antenna characteristics depending on the plastic type.
Looking at using this camping. What antenna would you recommend for at Camp, on 4x4 and in backpack?
With battery, can you install a larger one to last say a week out bush or do you think the addition of a solar panel would be better?
Thanks
From Australia
Very informative.
Any recommendations on antenna upgrades for this device??
great video 👏
What’s the best simple way to communicate with a family member in another state during a grid down situation?
G'day at 12:24 you say that is a frequency hopping spread spectrum system. LoRa modulation is a spread spectrum like technology in that the transmission is swept across the channel bandwidth. This give it a unique appearance in a waterfall display. LoRa and as far as I can see Meshtastics implementation does not use frequency hopping. I'm new to Meshtastic but as far as I've seen the frequency is determined when the "channel" is created isn't it?
I heard that there was a massive crash of devices at defcon this year when a bunch of nodes started up :-)
Since it has a detachable antenna, rather than mounting the entire module on the roof would it not beneficial to mount an antenna on the roof and run the coax into the house just like you would a radio antenna?
And on that note, have you come up with antenna solutions for a vehicle so that you could have one full time in a vehicle?
I ordered a LORAWAN device and a couple of LORA devices just to see what this is about. Oddly, there is some crossover with Crypto currency and these things. Hmmmmm. Fascinating stuff.
I suspect you quickly discovered Helium mining?
YES! Finally this community is growing!
You mean blockchain?
There’s a lot of value in using this as a primary form of comm for a local group in a grid down scenario as it has some level of encryption. Then switch over to VHF voice if this UHF method cannot reach the distant end.
Can you do a video with some outdoor antenna options with maybe longer length/ waterproofness
Excellent !
Very interesting!
I have a question if you think that this could be used in the woods to create a connection back to your vehicle's mobile radio by dropping a line of Meshtastic nodes along your trail just in case you need to write an emergency "help, I've fallen and I can't get up" message or for forestry firefighters to extend their range to send info back to their command center. I'm wondering if the "line of sight" could tolerate a few trees in the way. Are you in the mood to go for a hike? I'd be interested in some test results.
can different users utilize the mesh network or do these things only work within their scope or body of local users?
Thinking of setting up a network of these in my city on rooftops with solar panels. Only question I have is if they need a lot of maintenance or could they just always be on and always working?
What kind of lag time between message sent to message received? I’d be curious to see how this would do in a camping/hunting situation. Thanks for all the info.
Seconds to a few minutes. But that depends on if your node is sleeping or awake.
Thank you for doing the range test. I'm still concerned with the application I want to do it for, since the homes we want to link, one of them is deep in the valley. Even though it is only one mile away, there's lots of vegetation and rocky terrain between these two points. So I don't think LoRA will work. It would be better if they just wasn't scared of taking the Tech. license since I can reach there with just my HT's, but it is what it is. FRS won't reach. It might just be GMRS then.
A MURS radio would probably work well for your terrain, much better than FRS. I use the Retevis RT21V with a Nagoya 771 antenna.
this is an ideal use case for a mesh network. another node at the top of the valley could be used as a repeater. a camo case and a solar panel, nail it to a tree or something. they are cheap enough you could spread a couple around to really get some coverage.
@@arjovenzia came to say exactly this, thats the beauty of mesh. You can go as far as you would like depending on what you wish to spend on your own infrastructure.
Is communication only from your Meshtastic device to another of your units (simplex) or will your messages get repeated by strangers until they reach their destination? If repeated, does one have to set up specific repeaters or will all the devices act as repeaters?
Im curious like with FPV that you can improve the versatility by adding a left handed or right handed polarized antenna to all of your nodes if they would become more robust?
Josh, I was wondering, is there a number of words limit for each text message you send?
I’m the net controller for the Skywarn Program for the National Weather Service office at the University of Hawaii-Manoa Campus here in Honolulu but at the same time, due to Covid19 restrictions, I’m asked to operate from home during hurricane season last year and this year. I have line to sight to the NWS office, it seems that I could relay messages directly to that office from my high rise condo. Is it possible to incorporate a wall wort instead of a 18650 battery in their office for this device? I suppose I would need to know how many volts and amps that would be required. Please advise. 🤞🏻
I can't find a how to but I have seen people build them as base stations with no battery or gps and powered by USB
So I've been tested these for quite some time, so one thing I noticed is even know that the cross says that it didn't deliver the message when I look on my receiving phone at home base the message was delivered. I was told by one of the developers that you can't always trust the delivery mechanism.
Yes! That was what happened in my case. The three mile message went through!
@@HamRadioCrashCourse obviously the downside of that is that if you're do have an emergency situation you don't know if the people on the other side of the emergency got your message or not, however we put in place a simple simple response to confirm the message was received.
@@presidentelectjerryodom3889 that's called The Hostile Valley Problem. Lots of academics have worked on it.
@@presidentelectjerryodom3889 if they did receive your message whether you knew or not, the chances of their message returning to you would be good, wouldn't it?
Thanks for the great explanation. what's the baud rate?
The effective bit rate over LoRa is a few hundred to a few kilobits per second. The data is half-duplex and sent in packets in up to 400 mS chunks. The T-beam is pre-programmed with four speed ranges. Even fast mode is really most suitable for text messages, not voice or video.
How about building a solar powered unit. Great content and presentation. Thanks
Can you go from node to node to node to node to node to extend range even further without having androids in the middle devices, or does each node require an android device?
I wonder if there’s a way to get a PirateBox on the network? Ive seen Alfa antennas used to connect devices for PTT and pi zero cameras.
I would be more interested in knowing what the DB signal level is. This is more important to me. Can you somehow get that information from this device, or will it take special programming to get it.
Dispatch is about sixty miles away. There is a 2500’ pass between us. LoRa a good option? If not, maybe 2 Meter? Or? What would people here recommend. I have terrible cell service, and can’t get a landline (too remote). Any ideas?
I'm sorry I have literally zero experience with this stuff, but this is really cool and I'm really getting into it but I just wanted to be sure... So theoretically I could have hundreds or thousands of these things spread out between my house, families houses (with their permission of course) not connected to wifi but on solar panels and batteries and barring any obstacles I can text send gps data... I'm curious as to the future and phone calls or sending images... for instance would having a strong or multiple systems right next to each other be able to send images or do phone calls? Also are there other devices that are LoRA but can handle more connections? Or are all of these devices really small. Again I'm just curious... and I have no effing idea lol. Thanks!
Thank you.
You should check out the Recticulum network, similar concept and has some cool features regarding encryption and protocols.
Where did you get the batteries from do you have a link? Trying to fine some good ones
Do you have a recommendation for batteries to use with these boards?
With the current supply chain issues from China, how likely are we to see these devices get shipped and received in the US? Or do they deliver stuff like this via aircraft instead of container ship? Seems to me that anything from overseas is gonna be a real problem to get right now.
Can you connect multiple mobile/phone devices to one node?
do you just install the firmware update to the tbeam through the meshtastic app? or how do you accomplish this?
I’d put one in a tethered helium balloon (non-metallic, obviously). You could raise and lower it for the best signal.
So in essence, Lora devices are low powered wifi repeaters for a closed off network and you use a special app as your messenger to communicate between devices attached to the access points?
Hello Josh new to the Ham world and learning from your videos. Does the antenna on these LoRa devices factor into the distance? It uses SMA so it could be swapped out for a different antenna.
Yes and yes. There are better antennas for these. But at higher frequencies keep the feed lines very short.
@@HamRadioCrashCourse thank you. I have been curious about this system for a while. Thanks for putting the information out there in a user friendly format. Helps those of us who are just getting into radio.
A couple of questions:
1. Can more than one phone / tablet connect to one LoRa device at a time?
2. I’m guessing if someone sends a message from device A out to and device B isn’t connected, that message is “lost”. So best to check if anyone is “listening” before sending a detailed message. Is that correct?
3. If I have three LoRa units and three devices connected and one device broadcasts a message, the other two will receive it? (Party line essentially)
4. Any channel changing option so a couple people can communicate directly and keep the primary channel / frequency open?
I’m trying to see how we can use this in a remote community so appreciate all the info and help! Thanks!
I believe more than one phone or tablet could be used for one LoRa device but not at the same time.
LoRa devices will give mesh status for those they hear but the don’t denote of a phone or tablet is connected so messages could be lost.
It works like a party line, yes.
You could have three LoRa nodes connected to three different networks and jump between them with one phone.
I just wanted to ask, each LoRa device has a 2~2.5mi range in the city. BUT!!! They can leapfrog a message across them correct? So if you had one 2mi away (at a neighbor’s house), and then one at 4 mi away (at a second neighbor’s house) and then one 6 mi away (at maybe an office) and each was 2 mi away from the next one, the home device could send/receive messages to the device at the office through the other two LoRas, correct?
Thats right!
Just saw this and i am curious to play with this. Yes i am way off the learning curve to when i finally saw this video. But after all this time fron this video is there a newer version for 2022 and apps
If i wanted to mount an antenna using an nmo mount to my vehicle could you advise what antenna to use on this devise
Looking for advice,
Got a 60’ tower,
Hoping to find antennas for,,,
50 watt ham
GMRS repeater
And Meshtastic repeater..
I’d like to set up tower first,,
Send me to a video if it’s easier!
Thanks
Learning a lot!!