Could Rommel Have Won the War in the East? WW2 - OOTF 036
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2024
- It’s time for another exciting episode of Out of the Foxholes! Today Indy tackles questions on food rationing in Norway, German political subversion in the United States, and whether Erwin Rommel would have made a difference on the Eastern Front.
Join us on Patreon: / timeghosthistory
Or join the TimeGhost Army directly at: timeghost.tv/s...
Check out our TimeGhost History TH-cam channel: / timeghost
Between 2 Wars: • Between 2 Wars
Follow WW2 Day by Day on Instagram: @ww2_day_by_day
Follow TimeGhost History on Instagram: @timeghosthistory
Like us on Facebook: / timeghosthistory
Hosted by: Indy Neidell
Director: Astrid Deinhard
Producers: Astrid Deinhard and Spartacus Olsson
Executive Producers: Astrid Deinhard, Indy Neidell, Spartacus Olsson
Creative Producer: Marek Kamiński
Community Management: Jake McCluskey
Written by: Indy Neidell, Tom Aldis & James Newman
Research by: Indy Neidell, Tom Aldis & James Newman
Editing and colour grading by: Simon J. James
Artwork by: Mikołaj Uchman
Sound design by: Simon J. James & Marek Kamiński
Colorizations by: Mikołaj Uchman
Source literature list: bit.ly/SourcesWW2
Archive footage: Screenocean/Reuters - www.screenocea...
Image sources:
GFDL - Bjoertvedt - Eget verk
Arbeiderbevegeisens arkiv og bibliotek
Soundtracks from Epidemic Sound:
Aspire to Inspire - Howard Harper-Barnes
Heroes Will Fall - Bonnie Grace
Outcast - Jon Bjork.wav
Sense of Betrayal - Experia
A TimeGhost chronological documentary produced by OnLion Entertainment GmbH.
Keep those questions coming. You can ask them at timeghost.tv or through our Patreon. Timeghost Army members get prioritised or guaranteed answers, so why not join today?
Are you going to do Vietnam after Korea?
I completely agree with you on GFM Rommel in Russia. I've often said that the war in the East, was a completely different ball of string. He'd have still been his brillent self and I think his talent would have been wasted there.
Logistics? We got logistics coming out of our ears.
We are going to need an update on Justinian's Desk. And where Justinian and Theodora must have had a lot of good times together...
I shall continue to be here supporting this channel even if Indy hosts the Hundred Years War series! 😂👍
4:32 I'm remembering a Soviet joke from this period:
A woman goes to a shop and asks: "Excuse me, won't you have any fish?"
The vendor replies: "No, this is the butchery. Here we don't have any meat. The fishmonger is on the next building, there's where they don't have any fish!"
The woman answers: "Thank you."
Ah yes, because people famously do not make jokes during hard times as a way to cope, especially Russians, who are famous for their joyous attitudes, unshakeable optimistim and their avoidance of dark humor. (This is sarcasm by the way.)
@Harry-mp8vi What is not so humble is the post-war attitude in russia. The ussr wouldn't have survived without British Merchant marine vessels carrying American food, trucks, tooling and powerplant technology.
@Harry-mp8vi Exactly that attitude. If it weren't for the British and US, there would be no russia.
@@bdj_tvkthe sarcasm was quite lovely.
Everyone keeps asking what would happen if Rommel was put into X and this situation, but no one asks how it would have happened if Steiner was the leading the whole eastern campaign
Because surely he'd win it!
Steina...
I don't think Steiner would have helped much. He had a nasty habit of not obeying Hitler's orders. Mind you, Hitler was the problem !
@@pagodebregaeforro2803 Steiner could not field enough strength for a massed attack. Steiner's attack is not occurring.
@@JinKeeYears in the academy and You only learned how to use knife and fork!!
the answer isn't just a no, it is a f*ck no. the challenge is way too great, it requires not only the germans to perform well, but you need the soviets to do unbelievably bad for unrealistically too long and the logistical challenges to go away for like the first year of the war.
Not to mention Hitler being the worst micro-managing boss ever and making direct changes to change the direction of whole army groups, just to achieve some impossible objective instead of taking Moscow.
Yes he could. On allied side.
There is a reason Rommel was in Africa and not the East. Because he wasn't reliable enough to fight anywhere deemed too important.
@@Paciat That a dog whistle?
The last 2 parts are something that happened the entire war tho lol
I started watching Indy since WW1 and trough WW2. Advance to Korea... Can't believe... 10years...🎉🇫🇮
Same
I only discovered him about 18 months ago.
+1 :)
hear! hear!
Been watching since 2014
My grand mother recently passed away, born in 1940 she had memories of the war even in her final years, located in eastern France her family was spared harsh conflicts but still lived through german occupation, she remembers going to school and seeing german panzers and cars on the road, and that even once she was given chocolate from a german soldier.
She lived to see the indochina war, the algeria war from wich her recently married husband, my grandpa, returned with ptsd, and many more wars. I remember as a kid, whenever we spoke about problems at a family dinner she'd finish debates with a "Well at least we all are safe and there is no war". Rest in peace grandma, I'll miss you.
Your grandma sounds very sensible. My condolences on her passing, and I wish you many happy memories.
B.S. story made up
Bless your grandma. ❤
B.S. story
@@ronald-bh5vi to call bullshit on this you must be from a family that never lived through war and its harships. Otherwise you'd know it's not.
My mum who was born and raised outside of London told me that during the war sympathetic shop owners would make a very faint mark in a ration book allowing friends/enterprising house wife's to carefully erase it and receive an additional ration amount in another shop - as always it was all about who you knew.
Sounds like a smart move. But what about the people who missed out as a result?
I don't believe that happened for a simple reason you had to register with your local shop, you had a set shop to use your ration book in. You couldn't just go to another 1.
@@FrancisFjordCupolaI think it's a story because you had to register with your shop, you had a set shop to use your book in. You couldn't just go to another 1.
@@ed7002 Ah well, I'll give my 93 year old mum a bit of grace for mixing up some of the detail.
How to answer the video title in one word : logistics.
Seems about right -TimeGhost Ambassador
The Wermacht was destroyed by the Red Army. full stop. They had lots of lame excuses after the fact and their fanboys still try to revise history. The United States bought into the mythology and still to this day operates under the assumption of Russian inferiority, leading them to the pathetic flailing of NATO we see today.
Exactly.
The Nemesis for the entire war in the East.
Don't forget that Rommel was completely ignorant regarding logistics, which would have been disastrous if he were sent to the Eastern Front. His lack of expertise in managing supply lines and coordinating large-scale operations might have resulted in the risk of getting his forces encircled and ultimately destroyed. He was a competent, bold and daring tactician, as long as he had more capable and wiser commanders like Rundstedt, Kesselring or Kluge to restraint him when necessary.
Not to be too harsh on Rommel's abilities, but he was not an ideal candidate when it came to command anything larger than an army. Therefore, it would be crazy to expect him to successfully command an entire army group on the Eastern Front. Additionally, it is known that Rommel was prone to experiencing moments of depression and emotional impairments, particularly in stressful situations.
As Indy mentioned, there were already several aggressive and capable tank commanders, such as Hoth, Guderian, and even Model, during the initial phase of Operation Barbarossa on the Eastern Front.
@@WorldWarTwoseems about wrong - evil timeghost ambassador.
Americans of Polish origin visiting Poland were caught up in at least one reprisal massacre by the Germans after they invaded in 1939. It did not make Thomsen's work any easier.
Reprisal for what?... Letting Germany invade?
I mean two things, Rommel can’t create fuel out of nothing and would probably have the same problem as the German army. As for the second thing, Rommel wanted to surrender to the allies to fight the soviets which was something that was not going to happen as the Allies stood heel to heel with the Soviets.
He went to far and ran out of gas in North Africa, he was not a logistical magician and not without faults.
@@kevinconrad6156 he also made several strategic blunders that made the defeat come sooner
The "Heel to heel" idea is post war fantasy, much of the "unity" during the war was fabricated, because many in the west wanted to bleed both the Soviets and the Germans dry.
Monty couldn't lose now that ULTRA and the USA were bankrolling him - but he tried.The Desert Campiagn belongs at least as much to his predecessors and RN/RAF stopping all axis supplies
Maybe he should have agree to Valkryie?
Also, what position are we giving Rommel in the East? A Corps has less impact there than in Africa. And even if he gets an Army command after Moscow, it still doesnt change the conditions, or his habit of overrunning his supply lines.
General Patton often overran his supply lines too; but he never failed at what he was ordered or wanted to do. Of the two, Patton would always be number 1. I think some here are too critical of Rommel's abilities. The war in the East was much more different than in Africa or France.
@@CarlEvans-t6h It is become fashionable to be critical of Rommel. It is just the usual game of see-saw historians play. But, we must also remember that many historians, even military historians, don't actually have a military background. Often times people should look past their conclusions. I have personally found that many things taken as gospel from popular military historians don't actually pass muster when evaluated under a proper military lens. I am both a US Army officer and an historian and frankly, a lot of historians are clueless. The idea that Rommel didn't understand is first and foremost in that category which is astounding considering historians have had access to his papers since the 1950s. Logistics was *foremost* on his mind. Like Patton he pushed the enemy to the extreme and Rommel's and Patton's biggest victories occurred precisely because they had felt the enemy had broke and ran them to ground. The big picture is this: Rommel's refusal to adhere to his logistics resulted in nearly breaking the British in Egypt twice and had the Italians exerted a little more effort, and if OKH had cared a little more, he may well have taken the Suez. As it is, Rommel turned a delaying action expected to last 8 months and instead kept the Allies tied up in Africa for 2+ years rather than attacking Italy or elsewhere in mainland Europe in 1942 (to say nothing of the dislocation caused to British maritime operations for two years occasioned by contested nature of the Middle Med thanks to Axis occupation of half of North African coast).
@@CarlEvans-t6h With or without Ike holding back Devers and transferring his troops / supplies?
Объем перевозок по железной дороге является фиксированной величиной. Сама идея блиц-крига не совместима с длительным временем на улучшение железнодорожного снабжения. Возьмите в качестве примера 1942 год. Вермахт быстро наступает на Кавказ, но снабжение войск ухудшается, потому что нужно чинить железные дороги, мосты, вокзалы, растет необходимость в паровозах и вагонах. Таким образом, блиц-криг возможен на небольшое расстояние, а затем наступит дефицит топлива и боеприпасов.
Роммель бы не смог взять Сталинград, не смог бы преодолеть нехватку поставок. Даже если предположить, что Германия отправила бы в 1942 году больше войск на Кавказ, то снабжать их было бы все равно нечем.
Два талантливых генерала вермахта командовали Курской битвой - Манштейн с юга и Модель с севера. Оба потерпели поражение и отступили - вряд ли они были некомпетентны.
@user-jp5mn3bi2e Patton had massive material and air advantage. That's why he didn't fail.
During Britain's time in war, we invented our own sweet dessert due to rationing: carrot cake.
It is still very popular in the country.
I'm 99% sure carrot cake existed before WW2, but just became popular during the war.
In Brazil we eat carrot cake a lot but with chocolate sauce on top
Popular in the USA as well
Literally Washington served it at his parties
Finland made coffee without coffee concoction hot drink. Some people liked.
That norwegian story reminded me of something one of my elder relatives told me. Eastern occupied Poland, WW2. He was a young boy just running around when he encountered a german man (possibly an SSman? black jacket and all) with a dog. The man pointed at him, and the dog.. well, did nothing. And so my relative went on his way while the man started beating the dog. Some woman watched this from a distance, and my relative told me she had the most horrified look on her face. He had no idea what even happened for the longest time.
Yep this is the difference - in Poland you could get killed by SS in Norway the "horror" was that the guy was trying to help a woman with her groceries. I don't deny that it was a little bit hard for Norwegians but let's face it - when compared to rest of Europe it was much better, compared to East and south Europe it was a heaven. If your problem is "we have to wait few hours for fish and slightly change our national recipe for a dish" you are not at total war.
@@mwkoala really a full 1/3 of this video was on Norwegian WW2 recipes
Black jacket suggests non-German auxiliaries as the SS went over to field grey, certainly by the outbreak of war, but their black uniforms were offloaded onto auxiliary troops.
@@bigwoody4704personally I'd like a whole video about recipes made from rations in various countries. Here in NZ, despite not being occupied, it was the beginning (afaik) of the iconic Edmond's recipe book with egg substitutes and the like
Panzer troops wore all black too.
I've got perhaps the most important question for OOTF - will Indy sit again in THE chair? It is so close, yet it feels to be so distant...
As infinitely away as how much knowledge it carries on its back
Time will tell...
Thanks for watching!
@@WorldWarTwo that undefeated miserable bastard
Hi Indy! Thanks for answering my question. I sent this question back in Feb 2022 and had forgotten about it so it was a pleasant surprise to have seen it come up during this episode. I did watch the episode regarding the America First Committee, which came out shortly afterwards - it was a great episode! It's a very fascinating subject how Germany was attempting to use America's democracy against itself.
Something something history repeating
Thanks for the great question!
Wartime rationing is such an interesting topic, especially how much it varied from country to country.
My grandparents were in Switzerland during the war, and there was rationing there due to the difficulty of importing food. My late grandmother often told us the story of how they couldn't get butter during the war and for some years after, and when her parents came home with the first butter in years, she stole it and ate it all (yes, just the butter, like it was chocolate or something). When her parents found out, they gave her a belting.
My other grandparents were in Canada, where rationing wasn't as severe or strict, and never had such difficulties.
Germans received different coloured pieces of paper like coupons for their rations, not just for food but for things like shoes, soap, clothing and so on. The system may have been similar in Norway. The ration system generally was also designed to keep track of peoples' whereabouts as you had to register with a particular office to receive coupons and give your address. The resistance in occupied countries often forged ration coupons and booklets.
I have a vague recollection in my childhood of seeing British ration books left over from the war or post-war period, still held on to by relatives.
Butter with cocoa or chocolate powder tastes good. My grandmother would often give us kids that treat as kids. It was delicious.
Hell no. He ignored logistics. Ir would have been worse than in the desert.
His greatest victory, Tobruk, was made possible by sheer incompetence by his british counterparts.
By sheer luck, TIK just released his Gazala video
True. As a Brit that was a painful video to watch at times. Excellent as usual though. I think a lot of the myth of Rommel was Propaganda by our side. Much better to be defeated by a wily and "honourable" opponent than admit how bad our leadership, tactics and equipment was.
“I see the enemy!” “No you don’t.” “I see tanks!” “No, repeat no, you don’t.”
Yeah that was painful.
Finally! I thought I was alone. Rommel as their greatest general is a creation of allied media, "The Desert Fox."
Like you say, not many real victories. I also noticed his m.o. is to attack, attack, attack. It's a valid strategy, but not all the time, and he decimated his corp to half its size.
His Italian troops took the brunt of his retreats. German generals thought he was okay, but two grades higher than his competence.
My Grandmothers were of the WW2 generation and my maternal Grandmother remained an expert in eking meals from leftovers (when she told you to finish your food, or you'd have it the next meal, and the next, and the next until it was finished - she wasn't making an idle threat.) - she instilled in me a hatred of food waste and a 'Eat now, you don't know when your next meal will be' attitude. It's also worth noting that in the UK rationing lasted until 1953.
When I was a kid in the late 70's & early 80's, watching these old dears in the butchers was a sight to behold- the local butchers were all senior fellas and knew there was no point in trying to get one over on the wily old birds like they would with my mothers generation-
'Here you are Ms. Jones.'
"What's this Roger?"
'Half a pound of stake Ms Jones, just like you said.'
"That's not half a pound of steak, Roger...that's a quarter pound of steak, the other half the bugger's fat!"
'Oh, yes Ms. Jones, *ahem* silly me.'
It really illustrated that back in the war when they were allocated something like beef in their ration, they were paying for beef, not fat.
@Harry-mp8vi During archaeological digs in the city of Chester, bones of rats & dogs were discovered in layers associated with the civil war siege of the city that had cut marks associated with butchery.
Indy, I think you are spot on with your assessment of whether Rommel would have made a difference on the Eastern Front. He would have had the same difficulties as all the other commanders, and the interference from Hitler. Thanks again for the great channel. Cheers from Texas.
My grandmother was still cooking out of her 1940 issue ration book until she died in 2016
I am so grateful that the Korean war will be covered!
I've watched these week by week episodes for 10 years now and no week would be the same without them.
As a Norwegian, I can say that that last image you painted of Rommel feeding on gravlaks and reindeer with a bunch of Norwegian housewives was disturbing.
I mean, gravlaks is literally rotten fish that was buried under ground
Would love for you to collaborate with Tasting History. For folks that don't know the channel he has done recipes from depression and ration time cook books as well as historical military foods, and things like meals on Titanic and Hindenburg. I think it would be very interesting to see these two channels do an episode together. Keep up the great work, have been with you since the Great War and plan to continue as you move forward.
"I'm just curious, did the Soviets have problems with logistics and different railway track gauges when they launched massive counteroffensive against Germany in 1944-45?"
Thank you for giving some information about every day life during ww2. This is an aspect we all tend to ignore as it's not as 'exciting' as actual fighting, military strategies and politics connected to them
13:00 Had Rommel, then, ever said to Heinz, “Guderian, you magnificent bastard, I read your book”?
I’ll show myself out.
Hey Indy,
I’ve been watching your show since the closing days of WWI on the old channel back in 2016. It’s been nice having such a constant in my life, keep up the good work. Everyone at Tim Ghost is amazing and I can’t wait to see what you guys do for Korea.
Cheers
If you are interested in the story from Norway, the danish show Matador gives quite a good view of everyday life during the German occupation of Denmark.
Appreciate all y’all’s great work on all your programs ! Unfortunately for me the only financial assistance I can do , I do do . Watch all commercials all the way through . Thanks to you all !
Always take care of yourself first, thank you!
TIK History has just done a lengthy analysis of the Battle of Gazala. He makes the point that this epic battle- which is the one upon which Rommel's reputation is built just shows his status as a fairly average German general. The fact that he won in the end merely highlights the abysmal generalship shown by Rommel's British opponents- something Rommel commented upon in his own memoir of the battle. Indeed, it was a truly spectacular failure by the British and Commonwealth generals that allowed Rommel to scrape home to victory. Certainly, this long analysis is well worth watching and the point is made, that after this, the methodical approach by Montgomery, was the logical outcome as at Gazala a completely un-coordinated and almost reckless and ad hoc approach meant that the lack of focus by the British time and again let Rommel off the hook. In future battles would be planned carefully and methodically and maybe this led to a lack of spontaneity but would prevent a repeat of the Gazala disaster.
Indeed, and Montgomery never suffered a defeat.
Rommel was a great commander but like model, was better suited for a divisional command because they liked to travel between command posts at the front which was more tactically minded rather than strategic
I know you said not to ask questions here, but I do have one very important question I hope gets answered anyway.
WHY does Indy not just move his chair of infinite knowledge onto the set and sit in it for these episodes? Is the chair really that heavy that you can't move it a few feet to the desk he's currently at? Here he is longing for it while it sits just behind him. Is it really necessary to deprive a man of his access to infinite knowledge, he's answering such important questions?
Hoping for an answer soon (that I likely will not get). Thank you TG team for all your hard work!
The Norwegian story reminds me of a saying I first read in Chesty Pullers sons autobiography. He served as a Marine officer in Vietnam and stepped on a booby trapped howitzer shell. Lost both his legs and about half of each hand. As hes shipping out to Vietnam he had a temporary billet in Miami. As he was leaving one morning he noticed the door to the room next to him, a permanent billet of a Coast Guard officer, had a sign taped to it. It was addressed to his assistant and read... "Wake me up at 10:30 for my surfing lesson."
Puller reflects that, "Both the pig and the chicken must sacrifice for the sake of breakfast... But that doesn't mean their sacrifice is the same."
So it goes with war and even with soldiers. A rear echelon supply officer sacrifices, but not like a front line infantryman. The "horror" of a SS man stooping to help with your groceries and having to make your national dish with fish instead of lamb doesnt count as horror at all when you reflect on what much of the world was going through at that exact moment. Yet for some old woman somewhere its the defining difficulty of her entire life.
Also... 2,000-2,800 calories a day? I'm 6'2 and work out over a hour every day and I can't eat more than 1,800 calories a day and not get fat...
Impressive analysis of the Rommel question - but not surprising because, in a sense, like Guderian, you guys "wrote the book!" Thanks.
Reminded me of my childhood. In 1980th Russia. But how lucky I felt later on to be able to use all food tickets (meaningless by that point) as good-looking toy currency
Agree 💯 about Rommel being hampered by logistics. The interesting question to me would've been what if Rommel had Paulus' command at Stalingrad?
Time Ghost is my favourite history drug.
Rommel's biggest weakness was logistics, he constantly outran his supply lines in North Africa, I can't imagine he would have done any better in Russia.
Both campaigns were faced with the same problem. Making the most out of a limited window of opportunity to take advantage of the enemy's comparative weakness before their own caught up to them. That they failed is only apparently obvious in hindsight. At the time it seemed like a pretty good idea.
I meaan..was somewhat standered german policy lol
Rommel would have had the same albatross around his neck as any other Eastern Front commander had: good ol' Adolph himself. So, the answer is no.
I am with Indy on the Romwel question... the logistics hamstrung even the best German tactical commanders and Berlin tied the strategic commander's hands
It also didn't help matters with Rommel that the British Navy reigned supreme in the Med after defeating the Italian Navy. The Italian Navy never sortied in any meaningful way after several bad defeats.
Rommel was a good tactician and a bad strategist, and Germany had plenty of people fitting that mold already in the East.
I agree with you 100%. Your own video about the planning of Barbarossa and the Paulus's War Games show that the invasion of the USSR was flawed from conception and a single different field commander wouldn't have made a difference in the outcome. I think it's more likely that in this scenario Rommel might've joined the German Resistance sooner and the British would hold Cyrenaica and maybe move into Tripoli by late 1941.
Outstanding video and presentation.
Much appreciated, thanks for watching!
Yes! Indie is back hosting the show! Perfect I've always loved his way of presenting and story telling!!
Clicked on the video for the question on Rommel, but it turns out the other questions were just as interesting as this one if not more. Great channel.
A little know fact about rationing in Britain during the war: Overall nutrition improved due to rationing. A rather damning statement about the British economic/class system prewar
Public health improved. Fewer sweets for example improved the condition of teeth.
George Orwell thought that the availability of cheap fried fish and chips (French fries in American parlance) might have averted revolution during the Depression, as just about anyone could afford them, even the unemployed. On the other hand fried fish in batter is not so healthy. I don't know if fish were rationed in Britain during the war - trawlers continued fishing in the waters off the UK, but it was dangerous. I heard a Scottish relative who worked on a trawler died during WW2 when his trawler was sunk - it may have struck a mine.
@@stevekaczynski3793 The ''cheap fried fish and chips'' example is still prewar and I'm not sure want dental health has to do with general nutrition. But my point was that rationing during the war put the British as a whole on a path of healthier, sustained caloric intake.
@stevekaczynski3793
Yep. Fewer imported bad stuff like chocolate and sugar, fewer red meats etc and more home grown fruit and veg. Dig For Victory was a huge success.
Just. .no. No general can overcome an incompetent CinC.
Or insufficient logistics.
CinC? -TimeGhost Ambassador
@@WorldWarTwoi believe it stands for Comander in Chief 😂😂😂
@@WorldWarTwoI’m assuming he’s referring to commander in chief as cinc I.e. hitler
@@WorldWarTwo Commander-in-Chief i think
Good coverage of the food situation in Norway! The short story would be "far from great, but not terrible". A small titbit of information is that prior to the war the Germans built up a huge whaling fleet to get their hands on their lovely, lovely blubber. Large scale whaling by Germany was understandably difficult after the war began, but whale blubber was still a highly sought after food item for the Wehrmacht. So, when the Norwegian (and I suppose some German) whalers hunted whales where they still could and brought them to Norwegian shores, the Germans would take the blubber, but the meat would most often stay in Norway. Whale meat is delicious when its fresh, but develops a taste similar to cod liver oil when preserved (even when frozen as far as I know). My grandmother on my fathers side couldn't stand the smell of cod liver oil after having had her fill of whale meat during the war. I've had some "bad" whale meat myself, and I wouldn't like the thought of eating it day in and day out either. Still, a hell of a lot better to have "bad" meat than no meat. (there was nothing wrong with the meat other than its taste)
My lord, a very special generation across the world. Thank you.
As for Rommel, here he would not have changed one of the main problems faced by German tanks in the USSR is the thin width of tank tracks. Even the most brilliant generals cannot change the laws of physics. The density of roads and their quality are deteriorating. If they are still acceptable in the area of Lviv, Kyiv and Minsk, then in the area of the Volkhov River, Voronezh or the steppes in the vicinity of Stalingrad they become rare. Hence the maneuver problems.
also the russian landscape was mostly wide open, and some what flat. Where as in europe there was more terrain,hills,etc with more woods,for better concealment and off setting superior numbers
I have several original snapshots of the areas you mentioned, especially Kiev. Some show 10's of thousands of Russians as prisoners.
@@CarlEvans-t6hThey could have gotten twice as many prisoners and it would have won them nothing once the fuel tanks ran dry.
There was a time where Indy said he does NOT do what ifs… history does NOT occur in a vacuum…
I loved that
Guderian thought that Rommel couldn't competently command anything more than a corp.
He was right
Take everything Guderian said with a huge pile of salt. That man plagiarized much of his "Book".
Guderian would be more of an authority than most on that. But remember the egos at play in a statement like this.
Guderian got jiggy with the facts after the war of course denying his good standing with adolf.And making sure his version got told of conquest and manuever. Rommel never had advantages in the desert that Heinz had in the early campaigns
Every commander covers his rear in his memoirs. If Rommel had survived to write his we would have to hold our noses to read it.
A question I’ve wanted an answer to for years. I still think that while Rommel would’ve had supply difficulties in the east, it would’ve been better because unlike North Africa they would not be sunk on ships.
No, il generale Rommel non avrebbe vinto la guerra a East.
I don't think one man could have made much of a difference but I would've loved to see how Rommel performed in the eastern front.
Norway. 1:00 I hope everyone has read Snow Treasure. It has been in print since 42.
Time flies when you are having fun!
love the chair of Infinite knowledge and Indi's ties :P lol
Always great to hear Sparty cracking up off camera. Indy, you still got it. Nice tie, BTW. Regarding Rommel, I agree. There was no shortage of good generals on the Eastern front. The supply problems, the mud and snow, and the major numerical superiority of Stalin's army would have been a challenge for any general. Add to this the partisan efforts behind the lines and the terror tactics used by the SS, not much difference with another general.
you say "there is always room for disagreement", but I say, "no!". your original analysis and conclusion was perfectly correct. in fact i would say that Rommel's reputation remains precisely _because_ he never had to deal with the conditions on the eastern front
To me there is some irony in the Germans second advance towards Stalingrad in the pursuit of oil when Libya has the world's tenth largest known oil reserves. If only they had supported Rommel or rather thank heavens they didn't.
Hi Indy and team. Love your show. Glad to finally hear something about Norway. It has been kind of silent.
It sounds like while the Norwegians were rationing but still using regular food items, the Germans at home were drinking ersatz coffee and baking wood chips into bread. Must've been interesting for the occupying German soldier to notice, if the case.
The first response on rationing is so interesting - goes to show you just how much surplus we need to have every grocery store have whatever we want most of the time. 2000-2800 calories is pretty much an entirely average, if not slightly above average diet, and yet because that's running at capacity, it takes a massively complex rationing system to ensure the food gets distributed. Our food systems can do way better in avoiding waste, to be sure, but some variant of this kind of system would probably be what it would take to get it down to 0-waste without people falling through the cracks. (Err, many more people falling through the cracks, that is.) I wonder how many folks who look at the amount of wasted food realize that.
Unless one of Rommel's talents was being a walking fuel geyser, I can't see how he'd have made much difference. Even if we assume he was a better general than those already in the east (highly debatable), Germany didn't lose that war because of tactical failures, but strategic and logistical ones.
Much like how Jesus could turn water into wine, Rommel could turn water into fuel /sarcasm
@@einstein951 lol, that really his how some weraboos talk about him.
If Hitler would have listened to him, he could have won the North Afrikan campaign. I think he had more practical military advances that could have helped the Eastern front. Once again Hitler didn't listen to his own Fieldmarshalls!
The problem wasn't the Generals, it was Hitler himself. No way to win that engagement in the East with Hitler demanding constant attacking, no stopping for winter, not providing resupply, and demanding his troops sacrifice themselves vs retreat and regroup. If Hitler has been 100% hands off, and the Generals running the show had been allowed to fully manage supply lines and winter encampments, there is a possibility it could have been different, or at least somewhat more favorable for Germany. Victory was probably not ever achievable, but Hitler's insane micromanagement made it 1000X more unlikely. Also having to divert troops to Italy and North Africa didn't help either, If Italy had stopped the Allies in Africa, all that fuel would have been a problem for Russia.
I am so fucking excited for Korea. Further more, I’m really excited to see what’s after that, and that, and that. The future projects you guys cover if they even scrap the respect you’ve summoned for both world wars, I know they’ll blow us away. Thanks for all the hard work everyone on this channel does, it’s truly a gift I’ll never forget.
Part of Rommel’s mystique was the fact that he fought against utterly incompetent British generals that made him look good. Even then, he had some issues. Although he probably would have done well in tactical situations on the Eastern Front, his utter disregard for logistics(why let Malta stand when it was sitting astride your main supply line?) would have him no better than an Army commander. The only place he may have helped would have been if he was the commander at Stalingrad.
IIRC Malta did not surrender and how should they take it
North Africa was a completely different kind of war. It was a soldiers war. The British and the Germans respected each other. The Afrika Korps was not involved in any genocide(to the best of my knowledge), and Rommel was just a member of the German Army. On the Eastern Front, the German Army and the Red Army absolutely HATED each other, and a lot of atrocities were committed on both sides. Maybe I am over-simplifying, but they were different kinds of campaigns.
Cool content indie , love all of this being an ex serviceman in the 70’s to the early eighties ….
15.40 and next to Rommel as a Fellow Swabian, Johann Gambelputty ....of Ulm
Full name Johann Gambolputty de von Ausfern- schplenden- schlitter- crasscrenbon- fried- digger- dingle- dangle- dongle- dungle- burstein- von- knacker- thrasher- apple- banger- horowitz- ticolensic- grander- knotty- spelltinkle- grandlich- grumblemeyer- spelterwasser- kurstlich- himbleeisen- bahnwagen- gutenabend- bitte- ein- nürnburger- bratwustle- gerspurten- mitz- weimache- luber- hundsfut- gumberaber- shönedanker- kalbsfleisch- mittler- aucher von Hautkopft of Ulm
Rommel in North Africa had the benefit of a small front of area and areas of manoeuvre which had little to no rain. Indy you are right- the Eastern front had Guderian and Hoth but it also had Von Kleist, Hube, Balck and others who were competent panzer officers. Primitive infrastructure, freezing temperatures, the vastness of space and poor logistics hampered the German army.
Logistics is the key to victory
I have studied World War II on the European campaign for years. It is my humble opinion that Rommel was one of the best if not the best German general field marshal. I believe he could’ve done most anything had he been given supplies as requested. Also, there were a few times he was very ill and being treated back in the father land when some battles took place and he was not there.
Some of Hans Thomsen's activities influencing US politicians and opinion are referenced in Lynne Olson's Those Angry Days and in Susan Dunn's 1940
Sir, I agree with you regarding Rommel in the east. Hilters' meddling was bad enough for any commander. I think that Rommel being well known for loyalty to his country, (perhaps not so much Hitler), would have down his best to follow orders from Berlin. He may have had some success, but in the end all those factors that doomed other German commanders would likewise have doomed him.
Rommel competed against a serious lineup of great Wehrmacht generals: Model, von Mannstein, von Kleist to name but the top 3. Given the set of logistical and political constraints Indie mentions, very difficult to see how Rommel would have done better.
He needed two things 1. Better Logistics and 2. Keeping Hitler from having any say whatever.
I think your point about the east being under more direct scrutiny from HItler and HIgh Command really rings true here. Rommel would have undoubtedly run into exactly what generals like Bock, Rundstedt, Guderian, and Paulus did.
@Harry-mp8vi Well yes he would have and the Red Army probably would have won regardless after the initial drive on Moscow stalled, but let's not act like Hitler didn't constantly make his armies' situations ten times worse in the East with his constant interference.
@Harry-mp8vi That is true, but Hitler did interfere and outside of a few notable exceptions his interference led mostly to disaster. That also doesn't take away from what the Soviet army did either.
@Harry-mp8vi Hitler and Manstein left those troops in Stalingrad to die. They prioritized the front itself over those mens' lives.
Norwegian Housewife, Lucky Lindy and Rommel in one house?
Sounds like a dark remake of "Three's Company".
Hi Indy
Interesting questions and smart answers.
Awesome to Learn.
Thank you for the commentary.
This great history of rationing in Europe of course is predominantly oriented towards women who were predominantly homemakers in the 1940’s. I only bring this up because of the kerfluffel recently in the USA about a certain athlete’s views towards women and careers vs homemaking. What a difference 80 years makes.
Rommel was frequently too optimistic on duration of his operations, and thus was frequently caught short on logistics. This problem would've been even worse in the USSR.
WRT Lindbergh's support for the war, he made a tour of the Pacific theatre teaching pilots how to extract more flight time from their fuel [burn fewer gal/hr.] He may actually be war criminal, since it is known that he flew an armed plane [there were no "safe spaces" for this training] and is rumoured to have shot down a Japanese plane [as a non-combatant, this is where the "war crime" issue arises] when his teaching flight was jumped. Or so the story goes.
Read Stahel's "Barbarossa". The Germans were not going to beat the USSR in any conceivable way. On paper, they conquered a lot of places while moving toward Moscow, BUT eventually 100s of km separated the panzer spearheads and the foot soldiers. Trucks had to drive through that no man's land which was teeming with cutoff Soviet troops and partisans which mauled supply columns. Moreover, half the trucks were captured civilian vehicles which had no spare parts and which fell apart on the rough Soviet roads. Just the dust alone got into the engines, causing rapid wear which skyrocketed fuel and oil consumption until the inevitable fatal breakdown of the engine.
Like first question. My father, grandmother and grand aunt all lived through the Nazi occupation of Norway.
Rommel was a good general, but defenetly NOT the best axis commander in WW2, that would be Mandtein (although some would disagree) and even he couldn't save the eastern front.
Germany had a lot of shortage problems during WW2: manpower, ressources but one thing there was no shortage of was good generals.
"And then she kicked the groceries out of the SS man's hand rather than be helped by him!"
I'll take things that never happened for 500, Alex.
it reminds me of ww1 segment and thanks indy and crew
As someone who has followed since the Great War- You bet you're arse I'll follow the Time Ghost team to Korea!
See you there!
Oh, that was the best ending. Thanks Indy!
Hearing Astrid cracking up off camera was priceless
As a ten star admiral general with over 500 hours in HoI4, yes, yes I could. I mean Rommel could.
My grandfather (polish) and my nan (Ukrainian) who have passed away now said a similar story with the groceries. After the German takeover of Poland and the invasion of the USSR, both my nan and pop ironically met after both being sent to a farm in Germany for forced labor.
My nan who was tending a cow, apparently was interrupted by a German official at the farm and they supposedly kicked a bucket of milk at my nan, my nan in her good humour through milk back at the Germans. My grandfather who was the stable master there intervened and pretty much saved my nans life.
Regardless if the events are true or not, it makes for a funny story on how they met, my Nan used to say same thing that she rather die then be shoved around by the Germans.
On Rommel’s views regarding the push into the steppes I humbly agree with Indy’s words that at the very least he criticized the red beard plan. Together with admiral Raeder, the two wrote the plan to push for control of the Mediterranean and the African states north of the Sahara desert. Part of the plan was to push the British out of their dominions, territories and protectorates. States like Egypt, Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Persia. Goal of the plan was to conquer the then known oil supplies of the Middle East. A benevolent outcome of this plan would have seriously undermined the British oil supply. Secondly it would have opened up the road to the Caspian Sea oil fields without having to go all the way through the steppes.
Nevertheless, this plan was never fully recognized, as Raeder has said that the Kriegsmarine would have only been ready and strong enough for encountering the British Navy in 1946-47. For this, according to Raeder, it would have also been necessary to increase the construction efforts 5 or even 7 fold. On the contrary the construction numbers for Raeder’s Navy only dwindled, apart from U-boat construction.
On Rommel’s push towards Egypt a lot has been written. Even though the direction coincided with the formulated plan, the Afrika Korps never had the intended strength as was initially planned. Also, the lack of Kriegsmarine naval control over the Mediterranean, even with the Italian Navy, was a complete disaster. Hence, the push for the Middle East was not much more than an attempt with its little resources allocated to this operation. In other words it was but a ghost from what Rommel and Raeder had intended with their plan.
On the other hand the emergence of the Raeder/Rommel plan can be read as a critique on the entire push east through the steppes. The logistical nightmare red beard created was maybe the drive to write their plan. Naval control over the Mediterranean would have meant free reign. Which would have created much better controllable supply lines. Lastly, the entire objective of the Raeder/Rommel plan was much better defined than the red beard one. Well, of course, history tells us that it didn’t happen.
To me it shows how utterly stupid, ignorant and incompetent the then German dictatorship indeed was. The god-like admiration more important than anything but its achievable goals. The metaphorical Fata Morgana which was blown by the Mistral from the Sahara sand dunes blew obstructing sand in the dictatorship’s cog wheels in the first place, through the mishaps of its Italian undergraduate. Cheerio
Considering Rommel's fondness of outrunning his supply lines, he'd get into big trouble in the Eastern Front. Second El Alamein is quite definitive and historical turning point in North Africa due to that. The Germans were in constantly dire supply shortages in the Eastern Front. It only got better for them as the war worsened and they retreated closer to Germany.
Rommel could've won the War in the East if he only loaded a previous save file whenever he had a strategic setback. I have learned this tactic in Hearts of Iron 4 - the single most trustworthy source on WW2 strategy.
I already thought this would be the answer: It's not like bad military leadership was the cause for the failure of Fall Blau or Kursk, or that all the eastern front Generals were hopeless numpties who Rommel would have outdone to the point of winning.
15:30
This is what I picture the Sabaton Cruise is like, but it’s Indy instead of Roosevelt standing proudly
US: Rommel would have done as well as any other German commander in the east, he should have been sent there.
Shitler: Over my dead body is Rommel going there!
Us: That's an acceptable trade.