Cane Mill Roller Restoration: Turning Journals and Pouring Babbitt Bearings
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ธ.ค. 2018
- This is how I went about turning the journals on a couple of Goldens' Foundry No. 3 Cane Mill rollers. I then turned a matching diameter pouring mandrel and poured babbitt bearings on both the top and bottom bearings.
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I love seeing how old machines were constructed.
Many thanks for this.I am almost 73 years old and have had a hobby-level interest in woodworking and metalworking machines for a long time and NEVER EVEN HEARD OF SUCH A THING AS A BABBITT BEARING!!! The video was clear,calm and and a real eye-opener for me.I also liked the closing remark "Work hard and stay humble".What a fantastic world we would inhabit if most people took that advice to heart.! May the sun shine on you and the wind be always at your back.
"Be vewy, vewy quiet. We're pouring babbitts!"
ha ha :)
That is a Gem of a joke!
At least two carrots…
A cup of coffe and video from Keith, good start of the day.
With a spoon of fresh syrup in the coffee
Thomas Wallblom cup of coffee and a bisect and for some reason i have a need for some cane sirup on my bisect!?!
The two "Baron's of Babbitt" Fenner & Rucker!
Those old manuals were really nicely illustrated. People took pride in their work back then.
babbitt and breakfast with Keith...enjoyed...great video/discussion/demo....
Keith, Your knowledge of old machines and how to fix them is amazing along with the wisdom of understanding the appropriate tolerances for various stuff.
GREAT video!
Eric
Again you bring us a video of repairing an old part of history! And again I learned something new! Thanks Keith👍👍
Love this type of video. So impressed with you knowledge and skills.
I just love these Ol' machine repairs!!
Cane mills showed up in the movies Sargent York and if I remember correctly Hoosiers.
I always like watching you pour babbit. Thanks for the video.
First time I see a pouring in situ of Babbitt alloy. Very nice job!
Good job Keith!
Looks good sir, I’m always intrigued by your videos please keep em comin!!👍👍
Great video Keith
Very interesting restoration. I especially enjoyed the history lesson. Learn something new everyday.
Christmas went well! and to top it off another great video from Keith. What more could anybody want!!!! Thanks from the U/K. HAPPY NEW YEAR>
Great video Keith 👍
Hi Keith hope you had a great Christmas. Wish you a happy & prosperous New year. Look forward seeing your upcoming videos.
Now that was interesting as heck.. I heard my grandfather talk about babbitts but never knew what he referred to but did think they were bearings of some sort.. thanks Keith.. as always such fun to come here..
You poured a lot of work into that! Really enjoyed it, never knew how they were cast.
I had not a clue how to pour babbitt bearings so I was paying attention. Great video and it's not shaper footage................................... thankfully.
My favorite things about my favorite TH-cam machinists:
Abomb79: his precision
K Rucker: his technical knowledge
K Fenner: getter done
All three are great machinist and their end result will always be the best for the job. I don't want to take away anything from any of them, since I learn so much from all of them and they are all such good people willing to share their expertise. I just wanted to highlight my favorite parts of each of them.
Thanks for the videos, Keith.
Happy New Year! Glad to see you are doing well. Hope to see you next year?
Great work sir and very helpful.
Happy 2019, Keith. This is a nice restoration job.
There's a scene in Sargent York where the neighbor is using one of these mills. Enjoyed watching the repair. Thanks for sharing.
Neat Kieth! Thanks
We use to soot the shafts , any reason not to ,, tin mix over the lead mix type. They turned out well , my big lathe in one shop I worked had a rapid traverse with Babbitt bearings about once a year we had to clean up detour and channel the bearings. Learned a ton in that shop .
Very informative video Keith, thank you. No criticisms, everyone has a different way of doing things. One way with one job, may not work on the next.
Very enjoyable. Very different from cane mills in the islands run by windmill. Wondering why you didn't take a wire wheel to the faces of the rollers when it was in the lathe to at least clean off the rust and crud before it was put in service?
May I make a suggestion. You should take out the red line in your cover picture. Some people may think they already watched the video. It fools me.
Falling on deaf ears.....
I noticed this too. When you get behind a few weeks on watching it's hard to tell what you've seen or not seen.
I was thinking the same thing. Did i already watch this? Must be in a parallel universe...using the spray cutting oil, keith misses and sprays the middle. Reminded me of the bathroom seen in me, myself and Irene. Lol..
The couple months I've been watching and reading the comments on this channel Keith doesn't seem to engage his viewers. This has been mentioned before but he didn't make a change. That said, he's free to run his channel and respond (or not) any way he chooses to.
@@vincei4252 As a very popular Tuber, if he engaged his viewers, he would not get much else done in the shop.
Interesting. When it's moving at 1 rpm, perfect balance is not much of an issue. Thanks for showing - especially the Babbitt process.
letting a Wilton vise go rusty; thanks for the video Keith.
Love to are the whole press in restored working order 😀
Nice repair, good inventive technique.
I have had a can of CRC for years at my drill press. Works fine.
Nice!!
very interresting, now I understand how to make a tinn half bearing
Cane is happy sweet pour
cool, I have never seen that proses before.
I've used that same cutting oil on my lathe and mill for a while now and I like the stuff. Only issue I have with it is it gets sticky when it dries
Nice
You tamed that wascally Babbitt! :-)
Where is the axial thrust from the weight of the rollers taken? It looks like this is supported by the end of the shaft resting on the Babbitt in the cup, but then you mentioned that the large roller did not use a cup. Would cleaning up the lower end of the shaft have been a good idea?
I seem to recall a previous video where you manufactured Delrin bushings for a similar application. In that video you described the selection of Delrin for FDA reasons, to eliminate the lead in the bearings. Is this one just a period correct restoration and not going to be used to make consumable syrup?
EmptyPocketsRacing I wondered the same thing. I recall him working on a cane mill before.
If you look at the design of the delrin bearings they are massive blocks which are supported by the bearing housings. In this case the strength of delrin would not in any way be sufficient to hold up to the massive forces on the small bearings which are held in adjustment by point-contact set-screws. The cast bearing carriers here are an important part of the design and support the soft bearing metal which would break up without them.
Your point about FDA is a good one but maybe this doesn't apply for personal use.
In some cases, iron rollers were cast around steel shafts, while other times, they were cast in in one piece. For roller and crusher work, the cast iron was usually alloyed to be a much harder material of either "white iron" or Ni-Hard, for abrasion resistance, and also became a little hard to machine. Because the shafts displayed some characteristics of both steel and iron while turning, my guess is that they were cast as part of the roller. As always, I enjoyed this video.
@jack OR it could be cast steel, not common but it was done, and considering the amount of rust very possible. Cast iron and wrought iron, another possibility, dont rust as much.
Hi Keith, interesting video. Thank you so much for posting it. When I have seen other videos of people pouring babbitt bearings (eg Keith Fenner) they black the shaft or mandrel using the oxy acetylene torch set to burn inefficiently (too little oxygen) so that a layer of carbon is deposited to act as a release agent. I appreciate that you don't need precision in the particular job you are doing but wondered why you felt it wasn't necessary for this job? Best Regards Sarah
How come the babbitt didn't stick to the mandrel? When I did a pour a few years a go I used some dry graphite spray on the mandrel (in my case a crank shaft) to keep it from sticking. I've also seen folks blacken the shaft or mandrel with a torch set to a smoky flame.
I too wondered about the lead-cotaining babbitt, especially since these bearings will wear down and are in direct contact with the product. The lead content is probably sufficiently low that if it's your only source of lead, you'd have to consume a lot of sugar to have a problem. I wonder how the properties of pewter compare with traditional babbitt. For modern food use there are lead-free pewters.
As I saw another ask the same question, when you did pours before you SMOKED the parts before so that they would not stick when removing them from the form.
I'd bet Golden's still has the original blueprints and measurment specs on that roller and bearing(s)
Would soaking the serrated part in a rust remover be worth doing?
I would have wire brushed the rust off the rollers in the lathe so it's not going in the syrup
Hey Keith, got a sorghum mill question for you. We’re rebuilding this sorghum mill of mine and are to the babbitt pouring stage.
Was wondering if the big main roller needs to sit on babbitt. In other words, should there be a thin layer of babbitt in the bottom of the housing where the shaft sits down into the hole, or does that steel shaft just turn on the cast metal there in the bottom of the hole?
Looks like someone got a new tool box
Is there any risk of lead powder getting into the syrup, when the tin/lead bearings start to wear?
good deal
Wondering if those shafts were maybe wrought iron. I have turned some of the wrought iron from the early 19 teens and it looks similar. Is smoking the shaft not needed as this is only a half shell bearing? Thanks for another educational and entertaining video!
I don't like how the cross lead screw is exposed on the lathe you are using is there a cover missing? Nice repair job.
I don't suppose there was any rum made from the juice from the cane mills? In Tennessee, Kentucky Northern Georgia?
You forgot to tell us about the moonshiner, sir! 😜
Hello, I have a babbitt bearing with a square hole cut out on the bottom of it with a cloth or fiber like material stuffed inside it. There is an oil fill port that fills the chamber with the cloth in it. Is the cloth needed? If so what do I put in it? It looks like the cloth material absorbs oil and lubricates the shaft, the cloth that was in it was in bad shape. Any help would be appreciated!
I always understood cane sugar made syrup and sorghum made molasses
I just looked up the answer to my own question. Grade 1 Babbitt and type 2 pewter have almost identical hardness and melting temperatures.
If it's cast shouldn't the surface feet be slower?
Did you pre tin the cup and bearing block befor the pour to keep it from delaminating or is it necessary when its not a high speed, high pressure application?
If you watch the video you will see your answer.
How long will tin stand up compared to the forging. Are the original parts tool steel or iron? You did not say. I thought tin was really soft like lead and or zinc ????
Hi from England
Hi Keith...
I'm wondering if that shaft is wrought iron...?
Totally different to steel...but still widely available at the time this machine was built...
(wrought iron was cheaper and considered suitable for more basic tasks such as agricultural machinery, implements, gates/railings and architectural fittings etc)...
The initial surface finish achieved would suggest a "best" iron...
As opposed to "best best"...
Or "best best best"...
(it's the amount of times its rolled)... 👍
The shafts are steel. I thank they cast the roller around the shafts.
How many devices run on a one mule power engine?
I think much better would be to clock the rotors between centres and then re-cut the centres to start frorm that would allow to reduce run-outs.
I am currently working on a couple of cane mills, one a Goldens', the other is an Arkansas Traveler. On the Arkansas Traveler, I am pretty sure the shaft is steel and the roller is definitely cast iron. I did find wear in the middle of the roller, so I took the roller down about 25 thou . and then recut the grooves deeper, removing all rust and corrosion. One point not covered, if you reduce the shaft diameters, the gears don't fit the shafts. So for a reasonable fit, in my opinion, the gears must be bored and sleeved. I also have the problem that one large roller won't fit in my lathe. I would like to remove the shaft from the roller, but I am afraid that the shaft is "cast around" and can't be reasonably removed. Anybody have knowledge on this point? A great video for me- I like both the substance and style.
Keith I was just wondering would it not have been faster and more efficient and easier on you to turn that between centers?
I know it wasn't a factor when the cane roller was manufactured, but is lead in the babbitt material a problem with a food processing device? Or is this only going to be used for demonstrating the crushing and the juice produced discarded?
That's why he used tin-based babbitt.
It still contains some lead.
@@kevinmartin7760 maybe not some tin babbits dont contain any lead its tin copper and antimony.
@@jacilynns6330 at 23:52 Keith himself says that the alloy he is using still contains some lead.
Perhaps I am mistaken but isn't using lead based wear points on a machine used to prepare food a bad idea?
👍
👍👍👍👍👍
High Keith, I watched you pour babbit bearings before then you smoked the shaft to stop it sticking to the bearing, how did you stop the mandrel from sticking to the babbit?
Same here. Wouldn't you normally black the mandrel before a pour?
Single sided bearing.
@@@bostedtap8399 As I said I watched Keith before and he poured two half of the bearing doing exactly what he did today except he smoked the shaft to stop it sticking. Why didn't the molten bearing stick to the mandrel or shaft it stuck to the bearing cap?
@ , not sure why the different technique in this instance, I had assumed the previous that you referenced was a closed bearing. Possibly the variance is because of how much preheat was used, and to which component, the Babbitt requires a key to adhere, a smooth machined shaft, and when relatively cool will not allow adhesion. Sooting of the shaft, may be something Keith didn't want to perform in his clean shop, or didn't have a suitable gas?.
Over to some other subscribers maybe.
Would the amount of tin in the Babbitt have any thing to do with it?
Did you recover the old Babbitt? I've wondered if it could or should be melted back into the new bearings.
yep , it was remelted, you always lose a bit due to the remelting slag on top
It was new babbitt. He mentioned buying it from McMaster. The original babbitt was long gone. It would be good if you watched the video before commenting.
@@paulcopeland9035 both you and jusb1066 are right. He didnt have enough on first poor and remelted some.
@jackfrost1031 there was a bit of orginal babbit left in the holes on some but it was not worth saving, although to be fair back in the day when open abbit bearings like this were very common it was done regularly old mixed with new(expensive) was common practice to save money. Dave at Old Steam powered Machine shop covered this.
Jacilynn S thank you. I appreciate the comment. I figured they could reuse it. I've seen Keith Fenner do melts too but also with only new material.
Paul Copeland I did watch the video. Thanks.
The way I understand babbitt bearings is that babbitt is preferred for high load, slow rpm use. This is about as slow rpm as it gets. As Kieth mentioned there are several grades or alloys for babbitt and it depends on the application as with any other bearing type. He did machine some plastic bearings for the cane mill at the museum to get away from the possible lead contact with the juice. This mill was for a customer not the museum so obviously the customer wanted babbitt.
I have the greatest respect for the work you do and I really don't want to belittle your efforts, but I hope the strain on the bearing is minor. Any bearing I cast, at the very least has anchors machined into the shell so that the bearing material won't move if the tin bond fails. And the shell wasn't tinned so that the babbitt would bond with the shell (like Elmers glue bonding two pieces of wood together). Of course it all depends on the force being exerted on the bearing, with any luck my fear that the babbitt will pull loose from the shell while the machine is being operated will never happen and the bearings will last for a hundred years. Crossing fingers.
sandrammer
The shape of the cap appears to have taken that into consideration with flattened edges and a deeper spot in the center of the cap.
I agree and I always bother to tin the shells but I think he will get away with it as the shells are made with sufficient topology to hold the babbit.
I'm confused - aren't these shaft holders called bushings?
Erik Bongers
I think of bushings as spacers to renew a worn surface and Babbitt as a soft metal bearing surface. Spacers true a diameter, bearings hold a lubricant for a slow speed race.
@@FrancisoDoncona Check. Babbitt, bushings and bearings now properly indexed under B in my lexicon. Thanks!
To my understanding bushings are a type of bearing that are usually manufactured like other perishable parts, generally to some sort of standard spec, so when they wear out you just pop them out and put in new ones. Babbit bearings wouldn't be considered bushings as they are cast into another part of the machine when they are worn out..
After some reading: "bearing" seems to be the family name for all holders of a rotating shaft. Below that, we have "plain bearings" which can be either integral bearings (Babbitt) or bushings. The other main branch is of course the more modern family of bearings with rotating parts. So, calling it a bearing is always correct, but if you wanna show off...
@@ErikBongers don't overlook "bronze bushings" either These are actually made by compressing bronze particles soaked in oil into a shape. Fairly durable but replacing them with bronze sleeves is a very bad thing as it siezes right away.
Babbit bearings are still in use today. Most engine bearrings are babbit bearings (usually in a thin shell that can easily be replaced) If you stuck and cannot get replacement bearings for an engine they can be rebabbited. Costly but it can be done.
can't we use ball bearings instead ? and if not why ?
Athrun Zala
You could if you wanted to convert a piece of history to that of a modern tool.
I doubt a conversion would be very easy.
@@Crewsy so it's only a matter of conversion nothing more. I thought babbit bearing were a must for some old tools and modern bearings couldn't be of benefit to them
Athrun
I am not sure of details but have watched videos where conversions were talked about and what the benefits vs drawbacks were.
I would imagine someone with Keith’s knowledge could convert something like this cane press but historical preservation would be more important in many cases.
@@Crewsy time vs benefit usually isn't it? Cost of time to machine in a sealed bearing vs time to just re sleeve or rebabbit.
A lot of that sugar got 'processed' into a much more valuable form before it got sold...
IR thermometers don't work with shiny metal.
I am surprised at the half bearing design, that just seems to be begging for foreign material to get in the other half and chew on the shaft or try to get drug thru the bearing. probably why the shafts looked the way they did with the deep gouges.
cane mill, thought that too but remembered the cane part. Yep lots of foreign material.. cane fluff would plug that cup up in no time and act as filter/oil wick.
The juice will act like a lubricant.
I WOULD OF SWORE THAT I SAW YOU POUR BEARINGS BEFORE, SEEMS LIKE YOU TOOK ACETYLENE AND BLACKENED THE SHAFT SO IT WOULDNT STICK, BACKYARD MACHINE SHOP DID ONE WHERE HE WRAPPED THE SHAFT WITH NEWS PAPER
Maybe nobody is listening because you are YELLING.
YOU MUST BE BUTTERCUP CRY ME A RIVER
"Whatever" means booze.
On the "farm"? Let's be truthful. A "farm" in the "Deep South" was called a plantation.
Keith, May I make a suggestion to you? To those of us who are long time viewers and have a good sense of who you are and know your character, will find it is easy to overlook this. And most folks are aware that it is a colloquial "southern boy" thing.....and it's an unintentional/subconscious speech filler....but with all due respect it may be beneficial to work on eliminating "basically" from your presentations. When you pepper your videos with "basically" this and "basically" that, it comes across as very condescending. It is equivalent to saying let me dumb this down for you because I know for sure you are too stupid to catch my drift if I don't, because I am a whole lot smarter than you!!! At some level, most people will find this offensive and turn you off. I have friends from the south that use the same phrasing as you, so I know it's probably not something you are even aware of, but for a national/global audience like you have, it is something you should realize may be taken in a less than positive light. I only mention this since I love your videos and content and would like to see you continue to do well. Have a Happy and blessed New Year!
TgWags69
You must have self esteem issues if him saying “basically” makes you feel talked down to.
I hear it but it basically doesn’t bother me because it basically doesn’t even register as an issue.
@@Crewsy This isn't about me, or what I hear or don't hear. This is an observation from speech improvement /clinical psychological perspective. It is meant to be helpful, but like all advice Keith (who I was addressing, not Mr. tough guy Wayne) can take it or leave it I don't care. It won't bother me either way.
Speech fillers in general are something a person must combat in public speaking arenas. However some speech fillers are worse than others. If someone has grown up in an area where a phrase is used like this then it is generally accepted. However, it can have a different meaning or interpretation in other parts of the country or world.
www.theguardian.com/media/mind-your-language/2013/nov/15/mind-your-language-basically
TgWags69
Since Keith didn’t ask for ways to “improve” then your comment is nothing different than calling him names or worse.
Unrequested advice can cause more harm than a few extra basically’s in a conversation.
@@Crewsy This is the comments section and this is what it is for. Commenting on the content of the video and ways in which they can be better is perfectly acceptable. I have watched Keith's video for years and have probably seen every one. I think Keith is a very kind, compassionate, competent, person who care deeply about the people who have, past and
present, built our community/society. It is on this basis, as I said, from those who know his character, that I dared to offer him any advice. I have never inferred any names or other disparaging remarks towards Keith. He has my highest respect.
We are all on the path of learning our whole lives, unless at some point we figure we know it all and stop listening (hint hint). Understanding speech fillers and their unintended/subliminal or subconscious consequences on a presentation is something than any person wanting to convey information to a wide audience is a topic that should be of interest. Professional speakers, newscasters, presenters all learn these techniques and have to put in the hard work to make sure their message is "heard", which often entails more than just words. Since Keith didn't ask for ways to help "defend" him, your comment is no different than insinuating things about his character or worse. Offering unrequested "protection" can cause more harm than considering a few different points of view in a conversation! At this point I find it more interesting to know why you are so triggered and get so defensive about receiving advice that you feel compelled to butt in and circle the wagons?? It might be interesting for you to look up a Jahari Window and ask for the observations of those around you to help fill in some blind spots for you???? Meanwhile I am perfectly sure Keith is able to fend for himself, and if he chooses to consider the well-meaning, constructive advice of a stranger, then he can make that decision on his own.
Best Regards
@@TgWags69 omg i have to agree with wayne on part of this. This is very much like commenting on a writers rough draft and telling them that all their spelling mistakes and bad grammer piss off people.
Side note I like the way Kieth talks about things. Basically makes it sound a lot more easier for anyone to do this than having to spend months and months, along with a lot of money, with schooling just to fix one piece of equipment at home.
unfortunately I have to say I'm disappointed Kieth. All that rust and unevenness on rollers is not your usual style.
Jacilynn S
He wasn’t paid to remove the rust and unevenness on the rollers. His job was to prepare and make new Babbitt bearings for the customer.
@@Crewsy you missed the point entirely. I said it was not his usual style. Does not matter if your paid or not, and actually in this case has no bearing whatsoever. Usually Kieth would remove the rust and make the rollers work the way they were manufactured to work.
Jacilynn S
And you completely miss the point of paid work vs non paid work. If he did it then sure paying customer is happy but not doing could mean more paid work, but at the very least he is not giving away his time to a paying customer.
Much of his work is for the museum and assumably is volunteered time.
I am sure Keith has to earn a living or at least pay for tooling, equipment and utilities.
Bad habits Keith, you have the tools, you have the machines a good machinist will always shoot at minimum for 1 thou with equipment like yours. Some would say your machines are wasted in your ownership. You are no where near experienced enough to not be shooting for a thou on everything you machine. No Offence
Repour not detour duh hate this spell Ck crap.
To much talking