Bill's Wood Stove, Heating a Super Insulated House in Vermont Winters
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.พ. 2018
- I visited Bill Hulstrunk again this winter to see how he heats during the season. Bill lives in the cold Green Mountains of Vermont. Despite the extreme cold Bill uses very little wood to heat his home, thanks to the super insulation he installed. As you will see in the video, Bill estimates his consumption of wood at 3/8 of a cord so far this year.
Bill shows us how to light the stove, and manage it during a burn. Thanks Bill.
To see the whole house, and hear how Bill built it, watch these two videos: • Owner built super effi...
• Owner Built Super Insu...
Small Camera: Sony FDR-X3000: amzn.to/2sGyaAG
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There's a bunch of people making stupid comments on how Mr. Hulstrunk needs this and that. This man lives in Vt, the part of Vt that usually gets more snow and is colder than most of Vt. If you have ever been there, you know what I mean, if you have never been, you have NO idea what it's like. He is heating his entire house on less than a cord of wood a year which would be miracle in Ct, never mind where he lives. He deserves the respect for building such an efficient home, not comments from ignorant people. Jmo.
Pardon me but the "bunch of people" are giving us all added ideas and tips that personally I would like to read. They are doing a good job. Bill is also doing a good job but could use some tips to make his life easier (even if no more efficient than he already is). So mind your own business. That's just IMHO.
I have a small wood stove and live in downtown Colorado Springs Colorado in what I consider to be a well insulated house and was rather surprised when I built up a wood pile of about 3 cords and didn't go through a cord of. More than anything I just like the fire.
august- I couldn't agree more :-)
One thing I'd recommend is having a word with his postal delivery operative and see if they would like to drop off 30% of their daily door to door junk mail, you scratch my back, I lighten the load on your's kinda deal.
I need Mr. Hulstrunk to come help me insulate my old farm house.....I'm going through easily 20 cord a year.
Hello Bill. I've had a wood stove in my home since 1990. My latest is a Lopi brand Liberty. We improved our house by insulating with closed foam spray and Marvin windows, and R-60 in the attic. Want to pass on some information I just learned to you. To clean the creosote off your glass, you can get a paper kitchen towel, I use a half sheet, and wet it, and dip it into the cool ashes in the morning and use that as a pumice to clean the glass.Just a llight dip into some ash and you will be amazed. It does not scratch the glass at all. No more having to buy the expensive cream in a plastic bottle.
How do you like your liberty I just bought new one last April been using it few times already can't wait to use it regularly this winter.
I’m in the tall pines of northern Az and I use pine cones to start my fires. They work great, much easier than paper.
Brian , Amen on the pine cones. 100% natural.... like the wood
That's pretty amazing. I live in Virginia where we have much milder winters and I go through probably a cord-and-a-half to two cords and I built my house only three years ago. This gentleman's insulation job was top notch.
Nice! Love a fire almost as much as the warmth it puts off. Something about getting back to the root's of the simple times I guess.
Pretty incredible the small amount of wood you use! Wouldn't trade my Ashley Stove for anything. Love the radiant heat and the comfort of the flame.
we had a wood burning stove in our house. We had the same issue with the horizontal pipe as well. The way we combated it was we shortened the vertical by 1-2 inches and increased the length of the horizontal one by 4 inches. The horizontal became an incline pipe. One thing we also had was separate duct-work from above the stove to other areas of the house. That duct-work had its own thermostat and fan. When it got to a certain temperature the fan kicked on and drew the warm air to other areas of the house.
Love the video. Very well explained. Thanks for sharing. Not many people take the time sharing earned knowledge. Thank you and keep burning!!
66 degrees! Burr! 76 in my house all winter! Agreed about the straight pipe. We burn one fire a year. From early November through about April First. I fill the stove 100% twice a day (when I get up and when I go to bed) and adjust the thermostat to a low burn (no flames visable). We burn pine exclusively and go through 2-3 cords a winter. It is our only source of heat. Using the thermostat on the stove I can set temperature pretty much where I want to keep and avoid fluctuations. But when it's below zero outside I like coming into 75-80 degrees. The stove is in the livingroom so it's about 8-10 degrees cooler in the bedrooms, perfect for sleeping. We also have the OAK installed (outside air kit). So we load the stove, close the damper, set the thermostat, and we are done for 12 hours (sometimes longer depending on the temperature we have selected). Never have to restart the fire. It burns down to a few hot coals and I put the new load on top of them, close the door, close the damper, set the temperature.
The fresh air intake is a must on a super insulated house. I had a neighbor years ago had a pellet stove installed by the local hardware store, no fresh air intake. She was complaining about it burning dirty, I explained about the house being to tight and told her to open the window in the room and crack a window and see what happens, it worked fine after that, but I don't know what she did, if anything to fix it.
Love Bills house, to fix the draft issues / build up of ash / creosote in the horizontal run change out that 90deg bend to (2) 45deg bends, its will work wonders, also switching to double wall smoke pipe will keep the flue gases hotter reducing condensation and the formation of creosote. Its worth looking into.
Exactly!
I just bought a Buck modle 94nc. looking forward to the winter. love a wood fire
Good insulation! Great. It's so awesome to see that you aren't cutting down trees to do this. There are so many sustainably alternatives. Instead of mainstream, one way of doing things, we need a variety of ways to heat, produce electric/light, etc. Some things should be mainstream with just a few options, but there are other ways! Thank you! 😎
I just love extremely well insulated homes cause payback is fast and home is nice and cozy...
In Canada in the '70s the National Research Council (located in my city, I was 5 at the time) decided they could build a house that could survive a Canadian winter without freezing, by using passive solar design and super insulation. The chose a site in Saskatchewan and built three. They 'consulted' with experts from across the land.
They achieved their goal with better success than planned and were quite well pleased with themselves then someone decided to try living in one. 2.2 kids, a cat and a dog and everyone was sick within two weeks. Also, the heat/energy efficiency spreadsheets went dark, when the dog decided he wanted out six times per day.
Two things were consequently invented, then improved over the years; The air to air heat recovery ventilation systems or HRV's and the Airlock-Airtight and insulated Doggie Door, that never took off.
We were building conventional houses by then, following all the news with careful skepticism. That was essentially the path to LEEDS, which we're on now. In my view, there are other paths we haven't ventured down far enough yet.
I agree, super insulate, use a HRV, (they keep getting better) and geothermal heat pump. Forget passive solar, it wants to rule the design of your house, your needs come before solar. Besides, if you don't have a very good movable insulations system for the glass, it becomes useless.
Here, passive solar might make it much too hot in the summer as I have seen temperatures as high as 46º C. My area's record high is 48º C.
Best wood stove video on TH-cam. Thank you.
If you come across any renovations of older houses where lathe and plaster walls are being replaced. The lathe makes really good kindling.
Excellent! We also have a very similar wood stove, here in Dallas, Texas. It saved our lives and our plumbing a year ago, when it was -3 F
Having lived in that part of the country we had a franklin stove man the good ole days
Wow, a "real" Vermonter building a wood fire? I'm from VT..,being doing this all my life...at 57 now I've learned a few things about wood burning....you'll get there eventually, peace.
Great video and thank you for sharing.
Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for the video. I really enjoyed it. Very similar to my set up. I'd love to share my love of insulation and wood burning. Here goes...
I added a lot of insulation to my old house >100 years old. A lot! I burn about that same amount of wood volume down here in WV. If it's not too cold I usually just burn about three, 8 inch long, 3 - 4 inch split pieces in the AM. I can keep a fire going all day without getting too hot if it's below 20 by moving the hot coals away from the air inlet and by putting in one chunk at a time on before the coals disappear completely. I can burn a visible flame all day if it's single digits, which I love to feed the fire. I too don't burn a fire at night and it gets down to 65 in the house by morning, never below 60, just like you experience. I have a ¼ steel plate coal stove with ash pan. Lots of room for ash. One year I went nearly all winter without removing any ash. I blocked off the grate except for a small 6 x 6 inch area to allow in air and where I place the small wood pieces. I would like to use outside air but don't have that option. My draft is very strong because of that small air opening resulting in no need for kindling just two sheets of newsprint gets the old dry chunks going. Most of the time I like to burn the wood hot and fast and by late morning the house is good to go till the next day. My flue is super insulated and I burn only dry wood. I never see creosote in the pipe. The SS steel flue is 35 years old. I check it yearly, but there's never anything in it.
I took out my gas furnace and made a closet in that space. I can leave the house unoccupied with just a small unvented heater with thermostat control. I love insulation. I built myself a 36 x 48 straw bail (infill) two story garage/storage/workshop. Quadrapane windows facing south. Nearly sound proof and requires - almost - no heat or air. If it wasn't for taking the cars in and out! It has a commercial refrigerated space garage door.
Here in New England it droppes to approximately 12 below F* for a couple weeks throughout winter, a large wood stove in a ranch style house barely keeps it comfortable enough. I go through 5 to 6 cords a year just to live. Sweaters or sweatshirts are common attire in a Northern state.
We love our stove, we are in SC with 2x4 construction and single digits a couple weeks a year. Haven’t cut a tree down in 14 years.
Well done sir
I love my wood stove
Nice looking fire there.
Ski country, love it. Sailboat on the coast and mountain chalet in the winter. How did I not end up like that? I saw a home in Sweden that was so tight that the electric central heater was about 5 inches square. We generally waste all our energy in the USA. This is possible because people get rich off the sales of energy and the byproducts of oil need large distillation quatities.
Thanks for the video, I have been heating my house for many years with wood and I use a lot more than you do. My house has six inch walls and I think its well insulated but not close to yours. I plan on moving to Vt. In a few years to retire, I will keep your ideas in mind when I relocate. Thanks
Junk Mail Firestarter. I love it !!! LOL 😝
And the food when you put it on the tpp woodstove be sooooooo delicious
I like my house to be in the mid-70s wood does that well.
Cool Dave thank yea for sharing
Great video! Very cool! Thank you!
Sounds funny but we've been burning wood 30 years now and 8300' high desert northern NM and refined our fire starting methodology to a propane torch and some fat wood n' kindling and even with our stove running 8-9 months a year we never use up the whole canister. Not good to burn anything with colored print. And the embers for us can be problematic living in a wild fire area in the Rockies. Anyway nice job on the house. We have our main great room and kitchen area-1200 sq' +/- in straw bale and really appreciate it's insulating qualities both in winter and summer. Rest of 2-story sleeping/office areas radiant slab heat which we keep at 68 since our stove throws quite a bit if heat back in there; exterior 2" foam/tyvak with stucco.
digging the stirling fan on stove 8o)
Excellent video
Love the pants I need some of those
I live in NE Minnesota and have heated with wood. The key thing is no matter what you heat with you only buy insulation once.
Arouund here the insurance companies have put the kibosh on inside wood stoves, we have to use the outside water jacket type.
My house is 1400 sq ft plus a full basement.
I found that in a 9000 degree day winter I only burned about 1.5 full cords of Aspen.
On fuel oil it's about 400 gallons a year or less. Hard to justify a fancy outdoor wood stove on that.
Pine cones also make great kindling. But junk mail pretty good too. :)
Our catalyst-type stove info is dead against glossy paper
Stove top fans have made all the difference for us. Rather than having a lump of heat just in front of the stove, we now have a fan angled in the direction of our kitchen door and one angled toward the hallway. Meaning our small 4.5kw stove heats our whole ground floor. Because we invested in a super efficient stove, properly seasoned wood burns totally smokeless and deposits hardly any soot or creosote in the flue. Best investment we've made in the house. And beautiful too.
Love this set up, I can't believe how efficient it is. Insulation is certainly the key. I'll bet u don't even get through a whole cord of wood in 1 season. Thanks for sharing. 👍🏼
thermal mass
Great video.
Nice video!
Hello Bill! We met at the Bushcraft Symposium. I gave you my National Park Pass
If you live in Jamaica you won't need a wood stove. Ok that is as relative as the other comments of what you should do . Someone will complain if you hung them with a new rope. So nice work thanks for sharing.
my grandfather built our home in 1965, its not super insulated but the windows have been upgraded in the past decade and it is ver easy to heat, we use a harman coal stove and burn wood and coal and it stays very warm, I would never get rid of it
Coal releases mercury. Not good for your brain.
Nice fire
I
Nice video. Yes, try and stay away from horizontal stove pipes . He is spot on with crap collecting in here . I burn mine hot a few times a month, but still have build up .
What kind of Fan is that your using I know it turns on when temp gets High enough looking for brand name and if you recommend it ?
I have my Country woodstove burning now. I like burning red fir and Tamarack. House cant be too airtight tho, you need a little draft for the stove to work properly
A stove with an external air-supply is the way to go... DAMHIKT 😎👍☘🍺
Isn't that why they send us the junk mail? As fire starter.
also it's how the USPS makes their money, ever since they became a private entity and detached from the federal gov't and their workers who are hired and not elected poised to take over when FEMA declares state of nat'l emergency. but i digress.
*@jhanks2012* What's wrong with that? In some European countries we have national postal services that make a solid chunk of their salaries by delivering junk mail for anyone who can afford the fees, they deliver advertisements for small local churches that want to sell Christian funeral services and huge supermarkets like Carrefour that want to sell you food and even political propaganda for major parties during election time. There's no one they won't take money from.
If you want to keep your glass clean.Here's how. Wet newspaper made into a ball then dip this into the COLD ashes in fire and clean COLD glass with this. Keep dipping into ashes and scrubbing until clean. When done wipe clean with clean newspaper. Newspaper works best not paper from junkmail or what have you.
Susan Lee My friend told me that this works and it's much better than the caustic chemical gel stove retailers try to sell you. I use old kitchen paper I've dried the cats dish with and wet it to increase the ash clinging onto it then dry off with kitchen paper.
Does anyone know whether it exists a video or article about stoves transformed to be fed with wood pellets and worm screw (endless screw / auger)?
Great job and this is what im having for my next house, my current one is fire heated too.
The thing you can do that I dont see him doing (and I dont have in my current house) is to connect the stove to floor heating or radiators + the hot water accumulator tank.
With a real "heating stove" not one of those he's using thats made for display/heat 50/50, buy a water loaded fully shut stove, those have 80% efficiency.
Here in sweden people run 1 fire a day at below -20c with those kinds of stoves and it provides all the heat and hot water.
So look into it deeper and design right, because if you do you dont even need a pump to move the hot water around.
Regards
Is real the name of the heating stove? Or you mean his stove is shit and get a real stove? Some of the amish people that run stores around here have systems like you describe in Sweden.
imagine only feeling good telling internet strangers they could have done something better
Our Lopi Endeavor rules!
Tip, get a nice stainless steel, ceramic or glass sprayer bottle and if needed add a simple rubber ring gasket in between spraying handle and bottle to keep fumes in from petrol or alcohol based liquids.
And just use it to light a fire with one light spray.
Thanks for the video. I would have liked more information on the size of house he is heating with this stove, and perhaps whether this is a passive house, or just a super insulated one. Maybe this is covered in other videos?
Yes, I have some another video on Bill's house, talking about the construction. It's a super-insulated home, and built very air-tight. So there are aspects of his construction that meet "Passive House" standards. However, this house is not passive house certified. I've gone through the passive house certification classes and I can tell you that it's not worth paying for certification.
Note, Bill's house wouldn't actually meet every requirement for certification anyways.
I found the best fuel to burn is chunks of discarded truck tyres .
That's great. I live in Vermont and heat with wood too, and I'm really impressed by the tiny, 5degree drop over night. What windows do you have? How many pains are they? Thanks
Bill has an old version of "Serious" windows. They are two pages of glass and two sheets of plastic. Today you can buy triple pane glass that will outperform these.
I've got 7 wooded acres and I get a few cords a year just from trees and branches falling down. If that's not enough there's always some old half dead tree that needs to come down.
Cardboard makes the best kindling.
pizza box
Great comment! I worked at the honda auto manufactureing plant for 16 years. Cardboard galore. Gets it going fast and hot. People storm the liquior store on fridays to get boxes.
جميل والبيت منظم ومرتب
i want a super insulated house !
toobakedtooplay in Europe we call it a house.
The only way to compare the amount of wood used is the weight of the wood. One kilo of dry wood has got approx the same amount of energy.
We have this wood stove in lebanon in Mountain
You might look at a top-down fire like we build. Big wood goes in first, then kindling, and then your paper or firestarter. This is a preferred method for the new reburn stove designs.
huh
Preferred for just about any stove because it heats up the flue quickly and gets the draft going. Great advice!
What's the name of that wood burner where can I get it how long will the wood burner for ?
All I wanted to know is how that heat-powered fan worked on top of the stove. Was it a Stirling motor? Had to Google it myself...
(It uses a Seebeck module to generate electricity)
hey just wondering, if your horizontal inside pipe is getting a build up of ash, why you don't put in two 45 degree elbows and make that horizontal pipe into a 45 degree pipe? And just to add, I only cut down standing dead, thereby not having to cut live trees. And it lessens the available wood to feed a forest fire, just saying. And it's awesome that you can heat our home with such a small amount of wood. I live at 3000 ft in BC Canada and I burn 6 cord of wood in a well insulated home I built in 1995. today it was -31c when I got up at 6 am
When the time comes to look for a new wood stove, Bill might be well served in that space to try something with a smaller fire box. He obviously has found and fine tuned a strategy to make this larger fire box work in this space. He even mentions this but is worried about the wood pile tipping? The great thing about wood too short to stack is that you don't have to feel guilty about not stocking it! Just set up a cage with some fencing to pile it in instead. A smaller stove could be cycled in a more natural manner with a few larger diameter but shorter "chunks" in the box providing more continuous lower level heat output for 6+ hours per burn cycle.
Dry clement is nice.
I lived in a Passivhaus in Germany. There was only a towel rail in the bathrooms. There was no other space heating required in line with the philosophy of PHPP.
What type of wood stove are you using?
2 45 degree elbows might help in place of the 90. We have a Blaze King Princess wood stove its a cat stove it works as advertised had it 6 yrs no problems. If you are into efficacy check out these stoves. TM
Bill I like that you use all the wood meaning the small wood also! good job
How about the horizontal pipe down by the stove? It would be easier for the stove to keep it hot. That’s how mine is. I love Vermont. 😊❤️🇺🇸❄️☃️🌄
Air Draw is Key & room around Stove for Air Circulation is just as Important ... Depends Somewhat on Your House, [ Single Level as opposed to 2 story ] ... We are Spoiled here in Or , [ Coastal influenced Area ] Our overall Winter temperature is Higher .. Insulation is Very Important , but Stove Design , quality of Wood & Air-circulation are the most Important factors ... R - 40 / Floor & Ceiling - R - 21 walls ... = less than 2 Cords pr Winter ...
@3:56 the lever you're using, does that just open a larger vent to get more air flow to start the fire faster?
Bill answers that better than I can at 5:43 in the video. Thanks for watching.
@@DavidPozEnergy ok, thank you. I'm at work and had not watched it the entire way through yet.
U got me on the carbon monoxide part. I don’t know about completely closing everything. Maybe keep the damper open a crack and slow down the air intake instead
You'd increase your heating moving the stove 18 ins plus from the wall(s). The double wall pipe is costing huge heat loss too.
The double wall pipe is eliminating creosote buildup and potential for a fire.
@@chapter4travels If you keep the fire hot, not damped down, and burn dry hardwood, creosote is no issue either way. Moreover, you need A LOT of ignorance to build-up enough creosote for a chimney fire. The horizontal run is the worst of it however.
A hot fire in the AM keeps the creole nice and dry.
I think you'll burn much less wood if you use larger pieces. I have a similar setup and only load 3 times a day.
he seems to use what's dead around
Who is the manufacturer of the stove you use? Does it have a secondary air burn feature?
Rather than wood stoves you might consider researching about masonry heaters. They are ideal for super insulated homes. Wood stoves tend to have more extreme ups and downs in temperature. You build a fire and it soon gets too hot so you let it burn out. Then it gets too cool.
Masonry heaters, you build a fire once or twice a day and the masonry works like a heat battery, releasing he heat throughout the day.
My grandfather has one he built himself, they work great. They do take up more space than a wood stove. That can be a negative or a plus depending on your point of view. At my grandfathers it's a centerpiece the family gathers at. But the upside is they take much less wood than a woodstove and are much less hassle to run and maintain.
Search for a video "The basics of how a masonry heater works".
Hi Mrdead, I agree, masonry heaters are great. I've asked Bill about that for his own application. He said he went with the wood stove because he likes having the steel top to cook on. That is very cool your grandfather was able to make his own.
Masonry heaters often have ovens and/or cook tops. They're predominately used for heat but they are also used for cooking. There are no standardized designs. Yeah, grandad was tops. His heater has an oven built in, at it's hottest it's great for homemade pizza, which cooks in about 90 seconds lol.
Nice!
Using a Blaze King catalytic stove will bypass the constant refueling and temperature fluctuations you see in secondary combustion air wood stoves. My Blaze King King burns on high about 10 hours on a single load of wood, and it has a patented air intake thermostat to regulate intake combustion air into the firebox. Pretty awesome.
I wouldda considered a stove boiler at least!Be able to heat more than one room ...
Sir what kind of Stove is that you have?
Jerry Little it’s a secret
Maybe add 2 45 degree elbows and eliminate your horizontal run could improve cleaning and draft good luck
heya I have a wood stove not big enoough to heat up the house but it can keep it on thermeratuurwen it's but my house is not insulated the house is from1903 in that time there was no isolation but the wall are 30 cm thick so that help's some still thinking of putting on a dry wall and some rockwool inside for isolation the roof is iolated but not thick enough
Junque mail, nature's fire starter. What brand of stove? Oh, Napoleon, barely heard that.
man you're lucky you got all that insulation. i have a comparable size stove with a stone, vertical lined chimney . i have to rock that thing 24/7 to maintain 72 when the furnace craps out here in canada. . only good thing is i can throw 2 big chunks on before bed and she's still pumping heat in the morning but it's 68. i don't know if you pay for fire wood but if you do your insulation already paid for itself or will. what's the humidity like in your house when burning? do you use a humidifier ? i like to have a cast iron or copper pot with water and vented lid . it also acts as a thermal mass and stays warm long after fire goes out.
Hit Tom, Bill cuts his own firewood from his property. He is proud that he has never needed to cut a live tree, he can gather enough wood for the year with just standing dead, or storm downs.
As for humidity, Bill has told me it is "comfortable" without needing to add moisture. This is due to the house being air tight, and the stove uses outside air for combustion.
@@DavidPozEnergy awesome
Mind if I ask what brand of winter pants you're wearing?
Brand of pants: Norrona. Thanks for watching.
Not to be rude or anything, but I couldn't help laughing at those pants. Now, I've been known to wear some pretty homely pants with the promise to my wife I wouldn't leave the property, but those pants are quite unique. Keep wearing them.
Could u clean the glass?
Maybe a sloping 45 instead of that abrupt 90 would help with buildup?
I agree, I have a friend with a coal stove and he has a three foot vertical to a 90 and three feet horizontal to another 90 to insulated pipe on the outside. I keep telling him get two 45, at least it should help with the draft.
What about upside down start of your fire?
The main problem with wood heat is just how much time it consumes. Even if you buy your wood cut, split and delivered you still have to stack it and hack it. Then lump from the outside to the inside. Then there's all the fiddling with the stove itself. Now you know why I live in Vegas after 20 years in Maine. Watching this guy kneeling before his steel alter made me appreciate just how much I love my thermostat.
I think he has it pretty well worked out, someday soon I hope to go more this route.
I'd much rather kneel to a steel wood burning "altar" than to bend over to a greedy, cold utility company.
If I didn't have free wood from work and wood on my property, I wouldn't want to do it to do most of the house heating. I'm in Hillsboro Oregon, so it is more temperate here compared to Maine. I have no wall insulation..lol just attic and we barely use wall heat.
I have a blower that blows the stove air into basement also.
Cheers
insulation is the thermal mass? right
change out that 90 elbow for two 45s and you will see a difference in the draw
Burns his junk mail....lol.awesome.
Off topic, but what kind of boots and pants were you wearing in this video?
I'll ask Bill next time I see him.
Hi xghram, Bill said the pants are from "Norrona" and the boots are "Baffin" and he really likes both of them. Thanks for watching.
Whoa! Thanks for the reply. Maybe Santa will leave them under my tree this year.
was it mentioned what kind of stove it is?
I don't remember, but it's down in the comments somewhere. Just scroll down.
its at least 26 inchs.especially if there is any combustable wood. Two by fours example.
William Potts that is exposed 2”x4”s and his are not exposed and have 2 layers of flame resistant materials over the top so he is fine. He also isn’t running his stove near as hot as many people do because his home is well insulated and that’s another bonus point that puts him in even better shape.
Every stove requires different clearances and if you have fire proof materials surrounding the stove those clearances are even less.
He is in extremely good shape on his stove but thanks for your concern
Perfect home for a mass rocket stove. . . One burn a day.
Top to down burn is most efficient