How they fixed the junction Tom Scott made famous
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2024
- I visit Ipley cross to have a look at a junction that was made famous by Tom Scott in this video • Why this British cross... .
Was it worth the £500,000 that it cost to change?
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#driving #tomscott #education
The most suprising thing is not that it costs £500k to alter a very small strech of road, and replace the sinage, but that they actually had plans in place to change it before Tom Scott brought it up in his video.
Most of that £500k will have been siphoned off in little brown envelopes & off shore transfers to suits that have never picked up a shovel or know the smell of fresh tarmac like the men that actually did the graft! Wonder what they were paid?
@@lpgibbo7463 i mean if you think about either renting/owning the equipment, number of people that need to be paid, administrative costs, design, material cost (asphalt/gravel), ripping up the previous stretch of road, etc im honestly surprised that it wasnt more
@@bigzigtv706 and no one in government or local council (I know some of these people) EVER owns or is associated with any of the companies that supply those eh? From the plant machinery to the agency staff, these people have their grubby little fingers in ALL THE PIES. It's rife & to think otherwise is very naive.
@@lpgibbo7463 While you're right about corruption being rife, it's probable that most of the money went to the job. Laying a road requires digging deep into the ground, to lay the several layers of various materials necessary to ensure the road withstands the pounding of traffic. It's an expensive process, which is why it costing only £1/2 million is a surprise.
@@lpgibbo7463 rubbish. there's very little of that type of corruption in the UK - it's too easy to get caught. Anything going on would be far more subtle and more at the framework contract stage; but still highly unlikely in a case like this. When you think of all the works needed to build a sectiob of road from scratch, I'm surprised it wasn't more tbh.
My survival tactic as a bike courier working in the city, mostly during the evening hours, is to assume that I'm invisible, and assume that every driver is an idiot, until proven otherwise.
I used to shake my head at these types of videos with the attitude that everyone should just have your attitude and everything would be fine. After all, *I* operate as if I'm invisible and *I've* never been hit by a car or hit a pedestrian due to my vigilance! Everyone else should just be vigilant like me and that will solve the problem!
I think the finer point is that it doesn't have to be that way, and we should strive for an environment that fosters safety in its design, rather than putting all of the onus on the humans using that environment.
@@Matt-sl1wg I'm not saying this is how everyone should have to be on the roads, I'm saying that I have to be like that, because during my job I exist in an environment which is inherently hostile to bikers, and I voluntarily spend more time on the road than a commuter would.
Kinda like precautions with radiation. If you are only exposed to a little every once in a while, it isn't much of an issue, but if you are constantly have to be in there to do your job, you ought to do something about it.
@@vale.antoni I get that, your comment was just the first that I could add to because it most closely resembled my own attitude when navigating public roadways. It would be very easy for people to look at your post and carry on while holding on to my old feelings about these things. So thought I'd add to your thoughts with some expansion on why that isn't enough.
@@vale.antoni But you can't ride that way because you will be reacting unnaturally which is very dangerous. It sounds like you're a beginner so please take more time to learn road craft, that is the best way to stay safe.
@@garymitchell5899 Not a beginner at all. In the last 4 years I clocked in over 10 000 km on my bike, half of that was in the city, other half on A-roads.
Edit: During which I only suffered 2 accidents that caused notable damage, and just one of those was my mistake (T-boned a car after failing to yield in time, bent my front wheel beyond repair, for about $50). The other was a mechanical fault, and there was no other road user involved (I got a few road rashes)
This feels like the exact video that Tom would want to make as an update. Both the video and audio effort is top notch. No wonder the algorithm sent me here. 10/10
Algorithm did the same for me. I watch Tom video and then the algorithm brought me to this. That is some clever stuff.
Same! 👏
algorithm also brought me here.
Algorithm brought me here too :)
All praise the Algorithm. \[T]/
Very odd to see my local area like this. I work as a paramedic in the new forest and I lost count on how many accidents we were sent to there. Some of them very nasty. Since the change to the layout, I’m not aware of any there. It’s been a massive success.
that’s actually really great to hear
I almost want to see how the locals feel about the change.. there's surely some that are cursing that they can't now breeze through it, not understanding they're the very reason it was changed.
I wonder if people are able to continue to question what is going on in their country and its industries. I was given a clear reason to fear by the post WW2 eras negligent psychological pseudoscientist insurance laundering human trafficking mass censorship scheme.
@@pluggedfinn-bj3hn unfortunately i can imagine the people who consistently ignored the stop signs arent that bright, and cared more for their time than others' safety
@@pemo2676 Duh. But now because they only cared about saving that 5 seconds they saved every time, they now have to spend extra 30sec each time.
We need an Ashley Neal-Tom Scott crossover video. Let's see how his driving is!
That'd be cool! I'd watch it.
Yes😂
Certainly an idea for the Tom Scott plus channel!
Does that mean Tom Scott assessing Ashley Neal?!😆
Yeah, Tom Scott and Scott the Woz would both be pretty epic ngl
As an engineer myself, Tom's video may very well have helped push this design change through. Even with the new design approved, clients can drag their heels on implementing the changes to put off the costly redo, particularly in the government sector. A high profile video bringing attention to the problem can be just the kick in the pants they need.
did you pay attention to the video? the plans for altering the intersections were around before tom uploaded it. knowing Tom, he probably figured out they were gonna change it so he made a quick vid about it. Tom's always rifling through public records and blueprints.
@@DrShempTV did you pay attention to the comment you replied to?
Very cool that rich people can just unilaterally decide to perpetuate social murder if it suits their finances.
@@DrShempTV Hello! just reminding you, 10 months ago you made this stupid comment
@@DrShempTVyou wanna comment on a person you don't *think* watched all 4 minutes of a video, but you can't be bothered to finish reading the 60 words they clearly wrote out? How embarrassing 😬😂 I know it's been 10 months, but you should still be embarrassed about it
As a German, the idea that so many people just ignored the stop signs is insane to me. Good job fixing this up, and at such a low cost at that.
But we can still see in this video some car cutting the corner in the opposite lane. Disrespectful drivers will always find a way to misbehave.
@@christianbarnay2499 Well of course, there will always be some sub-percent amount of idiots. But overall the situation was clearly improved, so that's all fine.
@@katier9725 Of course it's an improvement. But my point is that we tend to rely too much on technical and design solutions to circumvent idiocy. And we never address the actual problem. So the idiots are still there. And they are reinforced in their bad attitude because we tell them as a society that they don't need to make any effort to improve as we are ready to spend the time and money to come up with solutions. Over the time this is resulting in progressively more people being fed up with always being the ones to make the effort. And ultimately deciding that being the idiot with impunity is the right position. So instead of fighting idiocy we are encouraging it.
@@christianbarnay2499 Well what IS the actual problem then?
@@katier9725 Lack of sanctions for people who break the law daily and put lives in danger. Fines, revoked licensed. Just applying the law.
Congratulations from Texas, USA. We have some very poorly constructed intersections that lead to horrible crashes like this intersection. Glad to see the highway department in the U.K. made life saving changes.
Well, this design probably reduces the risk dramatically, as traffic on the minor road actually has to slow down. Which is why, as early as the 1970's, this design has been adopted as the standard intersection design in Denmark. Obviously, not all is rotten in that state...
We still have the issue in t-sections that if a car tries to overtake a lorry, a side road car might not see car and try to cross road in opposite direction of lorry and the see the overtaking car in frontal crash. Don't know how that can be solved without a roundabout or lights. I never overtake lorry's if there is a sideroad access 🤓
The American fear of roundabouts and love for deadly huge cars certainly contribute to the insane pedestrian fatalities in a country so car dependent that basically nobody walks.
Apparently theres still an issue just a couple minutes before this junction
@@MaticTheProto There are roundabouts in the US, but they almost always contain lights and stop signs as well.
As a motorcyclist I have a simple rule: everyone is out to kill me so I should ride so. I'll never understand why you'd assume the other road uses know what they are doing
I get you as a fellow rider/cyclist/car user, but a crash can be lethal for a cyclist at 10mph and stopping distance is terrible even that slowly in the wrong conditions. Blaming the victim is a bit of a dick move all things considered.
As a biker both types I hate going out always in the back of my mind that an idiot is near me
@@zbf5h89ftb yeah, I might have been a bit forward with my previous comment to be fair. Thanks for pointing it out.
@@dang2651
You are the type that insists on your rites.
@@Igbon5 And you apparently are the kind who cannot spell "rights"
This is a perfect example of how good design is far better than just putting up a sign
yes I would hope spending $500k is better than putting up a sign
To be fair the problem was that people *don't* look at the sign
@@andrewd8026 if they had a good design in the first place, they won't need to spend 500k
@@Adhimaska Well they at least learned of a good design to consider using in the future from this so they don't have as many expensive fixes. But when has beuracracy and the government truly been efficient anywhere.
@@Adhimaska If you go and have a look at Tom Scott's video, he clearly shows the origins of this junction, and has nothing to do with "good design" of the roads.
It’s mind blowing how easily we can create unexpected death traps, yet equally amazing how simple the solution can be.
The solution was that drivers should obey the rules of the road. There was no need to waste £500k.
@@nigelarmstrong252its not the cyclists fault though, so we shouldn't make them pay with their lives when we know lifesaving solutions
@@nigelarmstrong252 most intelligent Tory voter
@@rossmacrae749 Explain your remark.
@@nigelarmstrong252Several human lives cost more than that in lost taxes alone, even if you do not care about those lives.
I grew up in a house that was located on a hill with a highway that curved around our property. The county had put up signs a mile in advance in both directions and put up flashing signs 200 feet in front of our driveway. Even with all that it was still like playing Russian Roulette every time we pulled out. I can't count how many close calls we had. It got so dangerous that the county exercised Eminent Domain and rerouted our driveway through county owned property. I remember my father getting his property tax bill the next year and because of the improvements, they reassessed our property value and increased the value, hence more taxes. He was furious. He took it to the County Commissioner and got it lowered somewhat. But the new driveway was an awesome addition because it was flat and downhill the whole way. Sledding down it was faster than we had.
I grew up in a house where the driveway exited to a chicane, built as a traffic calming solution. They could've made it a bend but made it an S curve (or actually Z). Many, many close calls but since cars have to slow down and pay attention to the tricky chicane.. they are going much slower than if it was just a normal bend. To one way there is 2km of straight and then some 700m more to the other way.. It is like someone looked at it on the map and made the obvious discovery: cars would not stick to the speed limit if it was just 2km of straight and easy smooth bend...
A lot of cars and mopeds did end up on the opposite neighbors fence.. so many that he didn't even repair it after each collision. It is the 2km straight that caused it, they dropped speed limits there and there has not been a single accident in a decade. On our side there is a bike&pedestrian path, the trees between us and the road did get a few hits but much less than the neighbors nice fence.
Wow, this is the first time I hear that a county voluntarily, without having caused it by a project of theirs, and without a previous fatal accident, spends money on someone's private driveway! Actually, they did a favor to many people, and you, being the most frequently endangered. I really appreciate your county and what it did!
@@skayt35 My father was VERY active in the local politics of the city and the county. He supported the democrats at the city level and the republicans at the county level. Playing both sides of the coin so to speak. I am sure he pulled some strings and called in some markers to make it happen. Not saying it was a shady deal, but it just didn't happen from the "goodness" in their hearts
@@valuedhumanoid6574 ok NOW I can relate to politics from where I live 😅
We just had the road by our house rerouted for safety too! It happened about a month ago and I’ve been here 34 years, but I love the change. It used to be at the top of a hill of a 4 lane, 45mph road and people got hit all the time, including a cyclist who was killed.
It was shocking how many people in Tom's video blatantly ran the stop signs.
Was it really "shocking" tho? Or did we all know that's how it is, and were just saddened to see it caught on video so blatantly?
@@Matt-sl1wg No, really shocking. We, I, expect that drivers don't really stop at stop signs. But usually you brake and look carefully, because a stop sign means more danger of overlooking traffic and collisions. You have to stop legally, but even if you don't stop, make damn sure that there is nothing in the way!
Oh and I forgot: Be prepared to stop immediately! That's the reason why at most you roll at low speeds. These drivers just didn't have the speed to step on their brakes. That's what's shocking to me. Not the fact, that they didn't stop, but the fact that they COULDN'T stop, even if there was something there.
@@Matt-sl1wg I live here and did the same as everyone, if it looked clear you dove straight across without stopping. And who wouldn't It is a completely open junction you can see everywhere, (bar where your A post is) and that is where the problem was.
@@anticat900 Lots of people think it's perfectly ok to ignore the rules as long as they don't see anything dangerous. The problem with that kind of self-serving thinking is that plenty of accidents happen because a driver didn't notice something. That might even be the #1 cause of accidents. This is especially true for drivers not noticing pedestrians.
@@DemPilafian Hello i don't believe I'm a fast or bad driver. I just did at this junction what likely 99% of people would do. I was unaware of this junctions unusual characteristics like everyone else and would just see it clear for a mile left and right so why would you stop?
I drive past this junction very frequently as I used to live in Hythe - signposted at the junction. I can say that traffic in the area is definitely a lot more aware of the junctions risk now the adaptations have been made and cars take the junctions far slower with enough time to react. So for once, £500,000 well spent 👍
If it saves one life, it is money well spent.
@@zloychechen5150 I just learned about this junction just right now through this video. I bet you 100 quid it will save more than one life, judging from Tom Scott's video cut-in how drivers absolutely ignore the stop signs.
No it is not money well spent. Typical councils allowing themselves to be fleeced because its not their money.
@@Stringer13ell lmao you're wrong and it's been done. Cope and seethe.
@@Stringer13ell It what way is a council doing it's job not money well spent? This is literally what the money is for.
It's been nice to know that regardless of ppl like TS bringing it to public knowledge, they were already planning one fixing it. It does make me wonder if it accelerated the process though. We all know that these things can sit and fester for decades if the wrong ppl are left in charge of their care, and just because they have plans to adjust it, doesn't always mean they will be followed through promptly.
They probably had like a doodle of what they might do from 5 years before and counted that lol
Remember: Tom Scott's videos are recorded a few weeks in advance.
I wouldn't actually be surprised if they were all "Oh bollocks! Tom Scott's been 'round at the cyclist-killing junction and it's going to go on TH-cam and we'll be a stockinglaugh! Pull out the plans to how to fix it, rush it into planning so it looks like we were already starting work on it before he uploaded the video."
@@ShadowDragon8685 laughingstock?
This is particularly meaningful to me because in August 2020, I was knocked off my bike at a roundabout where the approaching road was about that angle. I didn't escape without injury; I broke my leg & wrist in the incident. The driver said they didn't see me until they hit me. After seeing Tom's video, it made me realise that I was hidden in their A post blind spot.
The re-aligned road should definitely help & the need to turn from the other direction should also improve matters.
Whole cars can be hidden in them, moreso with newer cars as the A-pillar has gotten larger for crash safety.
If you are riding a bicycle or in my case Motorcycles car drivers suffer from Inattentional Blindness. This a phenomenon where a person looks straight at you but doesn't see you. This is why they pull out in front of you. happens all the time..
@@brianperry Yeah especially if the biker blends into the background because of their slow speed, position in the road (further out from the kerb the side of the biker is visible as well as front so a larger visible surface area) or the relative background.
Yes. Two weeks after passing my police advanced driving course at Hendon with a Class 1 I ran into a cyclist at a roundabout in Peterborough because I hadn’t appreciated this problem. She was only bruised as it was at walking speed only but it scared the bejesus out of me (and her). Now I’m a driving instructor I spend a lot of time on this issue and go to several junctions where the A -pillar obscures the whole road.
@@dickyr3295 It is worrying isn't it? After my accident, when I learned that it was probably a failure to observe the A post blind spot, I realised how easy this is to miss & that I could very easily have made the same mistake when driving.
The fact that people were just blowing through the stop is eye opening to me. Maybe because stop junctions aren't too common here like in the US, but the octagonal STOP sign is kind of hard to miss.
Yeah blows my mind too! I religiously stop at stop signs
The poor road design was essentially teaching them that there's no need to stop. Visibility is excellent, except the unknown blind spot, and it's a quiet road. On most occasions your way will be clear, so you get used to not having to stop. Humans are crap and will do the wrong thing if at all possible. That's why good road design is important.
@@ColinBroderickMaths Blowing a stop sign in the US can be hundreds in fines and months of license suspension. You'd think it'd be worse in the UK... We still have idiots that blow through stop signs but we have even more idiots that misjudge turns. Intersections like how they changed it are notorious in the US FOR causing accidents.
@@Jmvesey In Spain if you miss an stop it's just about a 100$ fine and 4 points less in your licence. We have up to 15 points. Almost everyone sadly don't make a complete stop
Hard to miss, easy to ginore...
Heh, after Toms video i started using two T junctions instead of X in cities skylines.. It works even there, for different reasons. It separates two right hand turns to their own intersections and makes traffic management SO much easier. Add in slip lanes and you only need to handle two ways, going straight and crossing the road from one side only. Add timed traffic lights and the throughput is quite good, for the amount of space it takes and the cost.
This I will try this evening :D Maybe just w/o the slip lanes because they create yet another point of potential conflict between relatively high speed traffic and pedestrians. Drivers will look for oncoming traffic that they'll have to merge into after the slip lane but usually not for pedestrians and cyclists who might be coming from the opposite direction ;)
@@friddevonfrankenstein That is what crossing lights are for. The slip lanes can be stopped for pedestrians. Or you can build an over/underpass
If I ever have 4 roads intersecting in anything but low traffic residential zones I introduce a roundabout, when my traffic gets to busy I'll add a slip lane for left turns. But the best way to reduce traffic is a solid underground metro grid
@@julianlaresch6266 And put pedestrian paths EVERYWHERE. Overpasses, underpasses, segregating them so that they are two systems that interact only in residential and commercial neighborhoods.. Paths are super cheap, never gets congested, but does require anarchy, which can break things...
And every intersection that can be is a T. Timed traffic lights so that one lane can go thru in each step and right hand turns are green on each step but one.
There is also double-T intersection that uses a bridge.. You use the bridge for cars going straight, another road fits under it perpendicular again for those that go straight in that directions and then separate turning lanes split from the main road and curve to the other main road. Takes up only little space, easy to replace a busy X intersection in tightly packed area. It needs the traffic manager to set all the arrows so that they don't act stupid: the fastest way is not the shortest and it will gridlock if not set up just right.
I just started a city with T intersections on every major roads, + intersections are kept at a minimal and on low-usage residential roads only
So far with only 10k cims and no public transport it's working well, my traffic flow is above 90% but we should see how it'll perform when it's >50k cims 😇
This is precisely why people like Tom are so important. We need people documenting dangers and becoming activists for a better tomorrow. Thanks for going over this in more detail :)
the danger is stupid people blowing through signs........ not the roads.
i know its hard to understand i learned repitition seems to help. Stupid people are the danger.... stupid people. 4 way stops for ALL. hard to get hit in that situation. yet morons ignore signs do what they want and cry when shit happens. survival of the fittest.
But the ppl who ignored the stop sign are still out there driving around like lunatics.
but I don't like change
@@seeharvesterok?
but the plan was already in place to change the intersection?
This is the first video I've seen from your channel, but I recall very clearly Tom Scott's video from a couple of years ago. It's GREAT to see that this issue was taken seriously even before that video went live, and it's great to see that people listened to the civil engineers who said "road signs alone aren't enough to prevent injury."
If you're relying on civil engineers to give you obvious advice like that there's no hope.
I have concluded that if you want people to do the correct thing you have to remove all other options. Expecting drivers to obey the signage and yield or even stop at an intersection is asking for failure. Forcing the driver to make two turns? That forces the correct behavior. Humans are dumb, just talk to one to see what I mean.
@@stevedixon921 Absolutely. Signs don't force a change in behavior. This does.
@@stevedixon921 I did talk to one once.
And I agree with your conclusion.
(That I actually passed the interview and got the job is just the conclusive icing on the conclusion cake. 😉)
@@stevedixon921 People stop at junctions all the time, the vast majority safely. Stop being a cheap smart arse on TH-cam and get out into the real world.
I used to cycle down that exact road, not realising the danger until I saw Tom's video! Glad it's been fixed now.
Also: most people have absolutely no idea neither as to the fact that this blind spot actually exists (in virtually any car) nor as to how massive it actually is.
@@ilyapetoushkoff8362 you'd never realized how big the blind spot is until you've drive a car in 120km/h thru those A shaped 4-road junctions
@@ilyapetoushkoff8362 Isn't that part of any driving course and wouldn't the person in your driving test check that you're checking blindspots by moving your head?
@@mothgru Judging by the amount of bad drivers there are in the UK... obviously not.
(at least not often enough)
When I cycle I always assume cars do not see me. So if a car approach a crossing like that I would slow down and let them cross before me even if I have the right of way. Even if a car has stopped I would not assume that sees me and would not start driving just when I am crossing. Having the right of way is of little usage in a hospital bed or six feet under. You will not lose a lot of speed or time if you plan ahead because just slowing down a bit will separate you, even if it does better safe than sorry.
A most welcome update about a notorious junction - thank you! 🙂
Having investigated many incidents over the decades, one of the most under-recognised causal factors are moving blind-spots.
That is very interesting. Do you have a link or some examples?
I myself have investigated a few collisions (as a transport manager). If you do the job properly it can be very enlightening. Unfortunately, most company front line managers do lip service to an investigation & blame one or other driver for ease; ergo other factors are never addressed, ergo collisions of the same nature recur
@@hippophile Theres an original piece that set up the Tom Scott video on a magazine called Single Track.
The title is "Ipley Cross | Why This Type Of Road Junction Will Keep Killing Cyclists".
HTH
Yes. Two weeks after passing my police advanced driving course at Hendon with a Class 1 I ran into a cyclist at a roundabout in Peterborough because I hadn’t appreciated this problem. She was only bruised as it was at walking speed only but it scared the bejesus out of me (and her). Now I’m a driving instructor I spend a lot of time on this issue and go to several junctions where the A -pillar obscures the whole road.
@@hippophile - I would love to able to discuss many of these. However, sadly bound by confidentiality - even in retirement. Pity as I see lots of learning potential for others including former colleagues who did not always spot moving blind-spots.
However, in some cases I was able to get significant changes made to reduce the risk of reoccurrence.
This is the first video I've ever seen that acknowledges car pillar blinding of any kind. It is IMPORTANT to talk about A, B & C pilar blind spots as many people don't seem to understand it. There should be an entire class in driving school that talks about how things that move at just the right speeds can be hidden behind a pilar in your car or that when on the motorway in the middle lane, cars at your 5:30 and 7:30 position often get blocked visually by your C pilar in a car. THIS IS GREAT STUFF!
It's amazing that people can have a driving license and not have the slightest clue about the fact that the huge post that is constantly in they field of view is constantly hiding things from them.
Any country that delivers driving licenses without making sure the candidate has acquired that kind of basic obvious understanding is a road safety failure.
I had a One series BMW for a bit but I got rid of it after a couple of months because I couldn't see past the A pillar, no matter how I adjusted I always had a massive blind spot to my right. I came close to having two serious accidents as a direct result. Awful car, uncomfortable too. For context I am experienced with commercial vehicles so know all about blind spots and I never have had this issue driving those, never even come close to a serious accident.
In my experience part of the problem seems to be that cars' A pillars in the US have gotten thicker to accommodate improved rollover survivability and curtain airbags. So those of us who learned to drive on older cars wouldn't have gotten those lessons because it wasn't a problem on the cars I learned to drive.
@@benroberts2222
Absolutely 100% correct, old cars had thin pillars because visibility was the focus. Average cars got faster so more got rolled over so cars were designed to be flipped, thicker pillars, bonded strengthened glass etc. The issue I had with the One series was the seating position, no matter how I adjusted it it gave me a blind spot on the right I couldn't look around (I'm used to adjusting for blind spots, I've driven quite a few miles in small lorries, large vans etc) which is bloody dangerous when you drive on the left, especially when using roundabouts.
They've done this to plenty of rural Australian roads. There were heaps of fatalities at intersections like this.
But in the Aussie style, these weren't caused because of blind spots; both motorists would speed up to beat the other through the intersection.
The staggered intersections meant that you wouldn't beat anyone through the intersection, you would go straight through into the ditch once it was staggered. This, fatalities dropped like a stone.
Reminds me of road design here in Mexico, we have speed bumps and little nubs to slow down cars everywhere and they force drivers to be at certain speeds (like hell i was even taught at driving school that speed limit signs are a suggestion more than anything, by law cops wont stop you unless you're about 20km/h over them)
There’s a reason that Mad Max is Australian
Ah yes, the Australian game of chicken. It's how we merge, too.
@@chekoteI saw that documentary, too.
@@worldcomicsreview354What documentary are you guys referring to? I’m interested.
I remember the Tom Scott video solely because I was stunned to see the number of cars just flying through the stop signs without even slowing down, let alone stopping. Of course people run stop signs in the US, but it's usually accidental. Even people who are from a given area with a deserted rural crossing that has good visibility tend to stop. Of course, there are also relatively few yield signs at crossings here, so maybe it's just a matter of conditioning.
Out in farm country it's more common. Rolling through is almost mandatory everywhere else it seems though. I wish people took it seriously regardless.
Definitely the conditioning, I think. When I lived in the UK, I only knew of one stop sign and I got around quite a bit.
@@0Rookie0 People would take stop signs more seriously if they were used more judiciously. Though they should be eliminated almost entirely in my opinion.
The visibility is extremely good, and nine times out of ten there will be no one else in view, so people naturally get complacent. First they'll roll the stop. Then they'll slow down even less. Eventually they will stop slowing down at all, because they've never needed to before. The road conditions essentially teach drivers to do exactly the wrong thing. This is why proper road design is so important. Humans WILL do the wrong thing if given the chance.
Stop signs are rare in the UK, and are only really put up in places where accidents have happened. Similarly to speed cameras, which you can guarantee only exist where a fatal accident has occurred. Pop one or two down and give people lots of warning that they'll receive a hefty fine for speeding here, and most motorists will make themselves safe because they don't want to receive the fine. We call the idea "policing by consent" because people voluntarily police themselves instead of speeding by the camera and having to be policed by the police.
Excellent video Ashley. I live 2 miles from this junction and have seen several crashes between cars prior to the changes being made. This road is a short cut to avoid the very busy (and hence slow) A326, so anyone in a hurry would take this route and ignore the 40 mph speed limit. It's also one of only two routes for cyclists to get from the Hythe/ Dibden conurbation into the beautiful New Forest so acts as a focus for them. On summer evenings Ipley crossroads is used as a turn point on the very popular P164 cycling time trial course between Lyndhurst and Beaulieu. As a keen local cyclist I think the money was well spent, it definitely feels safer now.
From what you are saying, there should actually be a seperate cyclepath.
Improves safety even more
@@Stompy1984 The cycle path would still need to cross the road somewhere. That's just moving the problem a few steps away.
My take is that there is well known impunity for speeding and ignoring the stop sign. A police squad randomly coming to the place and distributing fines and license suspensions for shifts of a couple hours should rapidly reduce the incivility while helping refill the budget and reduce taxes.
I've driven through countless such staggered crossroads in Britain, always wondered why they were laid out like this! Assumed it had something to do with ancient land ownership, as is often the case with weird layouts - turns out it's for safety.
In California, where I live, it is often a relic of old rights-of-way.
It can be annoying to negotiate such intersections, but if it is safer the reason doesn't matter.
No it's more likely to be land ownership or topography. When these junctions were originally made nothing travelled beyond a few miles an hour so there was never a safety issue.
In my area there is a road that I always thought was silly it didn't go straight, I always wondered why it would curve round instead and just thought they wanted to keep the small patch of grass (lol) and now I know why too. lol
Good to see logic being used here to keep everyone safe
On a side note, anyone else notice the corner cutter at 2:40? Safely knew nobody was there or "I've lost 2 seconds with the new road layout, left me make up
It's probably the self-same drivers that used to sail through without stopping.
Yeah I agree but it’s a shame that logic probably took a 100 years and needless death to work out a problem in 5 minutes on the tech board ..
@@Rogue-cg1rm When that junction was designed there were probably less cars around so was suitable at the time. Most likely followed existing horse and cart routes through the New Forest (lovely place by the way, highly recommended to all). I agree that death tolls shouldn't need to rise for improvements to be made and even a near miss should be enough to think "What can we do?". A road near to where I used to live had 5 deaths over a 6 year period which, apparently, didn't meet the local council threshold of more than 1 death per year on average to discuss improvements. A lot of campaigning and lobbying by local groups results in traffic calming being installed
@@smilerbob I think one of the keys here is the signage and lack of adherence to them .. stop and halt , solid white lines are completely ignored by idiots .. I have one such junction close to my workplace that is treated as if invisible because I think it’s in the middle of nowhere .. the A52 meets the A523 at Calton moor , is a regular route I use and if I am going southbound toward it the A52 is to my right and is regularly contravened by cars and trucks .. and as articulated Hgv myself at 44 tonne and legally allowed to travel at 50mph past this junction I have more than a few times had to slap my anchors on and I’m sure you will understand it ain’t easy and a little bit scary at times … good luck .
Probably "safely knew nobody was there". Visibility is pretty good; the previous issues were down to the angles of approach, and the fact that the roads were straight. Looking at the angles, I doubt the driver could have had any approaching traffic in their A-pillar blind spot. Also, no traffic approaches from the minor road after the car passes, thus confirming that there was no traffic for the driver to avoid.
Remember that cutting corners doesn't just save you time; it also saves fuel and/or tyre wear, depending on what speed you choose to take the corner.
Personally, I don't see an issue with cutting a corner like this if you can be 100% sure that it is safe to do so.
I like when problems like that are solved by designs and not merely by signs and warnings.
Not designs. Money. Taxpayer money because people won't follow the road signs. If they wanted to save lives and make money off of this, they would have simply parked a cop there and ticketed everybody that broke the law. Eventually people learn.
When I was young I was always taught to hold my head up high and look both ways constantly as I cross any road or intersection. As an adult I've learned that I am 100% responsible for my own safety and should never rely on other people or their systems to work for me. As a pedestrian these two simple ideas have kept me alive and uninjured in many situations, and now as I drive more than I ever have before I apply these same rules and it has already saved me from a wreck in 3 instances. PAY ATTENTION and DONT BECOME COMPLACENT!
@gormenfreeman499 In my country the rules say that the driver should have another person help him back out if needed. And backup cameras are a thing these days.
@gormenfreeman499 That's exactly why you should be reversing into a parking space or driveway and driving out, not driving in and reversing out. If you hit somebody doing that then you would be at fault, 100% of the time.
I've had this experience once where I couldn't see a cycle till it came very close and I had to slam the brakes. I was not going very fast but I was amazed what a huge blind spot the A pillar is.
I would love to see a video breaking down the £500,000 pricetag of that change. It feels like a lot for a fairly minor looking change but I'm sure there's more that goes into it.
pretty easy really. asphalt costs about 100quid/tonne. multiply that by the 50,000 tonnes of asphalt needed for the 50 meters of road, i.e. 1000 tonnes per meter, gives you 500K. simples innnit
@@simonleeofficial 90% of it will go into the mate of the locals councillor who approved it’s offshore bank account
@@simonleeofficial Nice, that's a lot of asphalt lol. It's nice to know that the bulk of the cost is it's down the cost of materials.
@@aeropherxd I’m quite certain that 1000 ton of asphalt per meter would be VERY visible lol. It would be a mountain of asphalt. So yeah the bulk of the cost is probably not in the material, but instead bureaucracy
@@simonleeofficial 1000 tonnes per metre of a tiny little road like that? Im pretty sure that would be some diamond density asphalt wouldnt it? Think about the weight of other things and the size of them … no way is a 1metre long*1metre deep*(however wide the road is) slab of asphalt weighing 1000 tonnes, way less than 100 tonnes probably and the depth of the asphalt below the surface of the road is probably a lot less than 1metre tbh
An identical solution was used over 30 years ago at a junction in Central Scotland to prevent injuries and fatalities.and was successful for a long time. However, some drivers still saw a challenge in crossing the junction before oncoming traffic and accidents continued - albeit at a much reduced rate. Eventually, the solution was a large roundabout which slows everybody down.
you can't pave your way around natural selection, im afraid
@@DrShempTV It's not natural selection, though. Natural selection means the weaker or less wary are killed, whereas in these accidents, it can be the less wary killing the sensible ones.
Very interesting. This explains an intersection change near my old place that I never understood. Seen from above, the new layout is identical to the new layout in this video. Makes a lot of sense the way you explained it. Learned something new about traffic patterns today. :-) Thank you!
I live here! It took ages, because they literally moved the top foot of soil from the new position to the old, to protect as much biodiversity as possible (I assume) very cool!
The shit environmentalists come up with. What a joke.
I imagine that was done so that if someone wasn't paying attention and wasn't used to the new layout that they would slow down in a raised dirt section instead of crashing down a foot into the grass. I don't see any biodiversity rationale in a hunk of dirt.
@@schmiddy8433 You'd be pleasantly shocked at the biodiversity in "just" a hunk of dirt! By preserving the mycelium and insects/microbes in that dirt, they keep a much richer soil and will keep that area much healthier than just stripping it away. It's pretty cool
@@itsdrgrandpa I know there's life in the dirt, but 'preserving biodiversity' by placing it in the exact spot the old road was is a rationale I don't believe.
@@schmiddy8433 that's okay, you don't have to believe it. You also don't seem to any relevant expertise (unless you're not mentioning it?) so i think it's worth considering that you're simply missing out on some info. No big deal either way 😊
I thought about this junction a lot since Tom's video about it came out. This one literally brought me peace of mind. Thank you a lot!
A lot of junctions in Somerset and Devon are staggered like this. The old Roman roads across open country are often the minor roads, and they used to be dead straight for miles on end. Now many of them have the Roman road do a deviation on one side of the main road to stagger the junction. On family holidays in the 1970s as a child of around 10 I remember working out that this was to increase safety, I was quite proud of my young self!
Hadn't thought of that, but of course the link back to the old viae romanae makes a lot of sense!
Impressed by your pre-teen self's risk assessment acuity too! Did you grow up to become a civil engineer or safety inspector by any chance...? 😋
@@anna_in_aotearoa3166 I grew up to be a computer programmer. I'm very physics and mathematically minded.
This reminds me of a similar intersection near me. I had not used it for a few months, and suddenly it had a “side arm” change like this one. I could not understand why. Now I do, thanks to your video. 😊
It's my job at 1:45 to produce drawings like that! Funny seeing another engineers approach of illustrating information
Do an analysis video 😉
A very quick tip from the world of aviation. If you are moving and you are looking at something and it's not moving relative to your vision. ie. it's on "a constant bearing". You are on a collision course. The trouble in cars is... they typically only have one driver and they have pillars which remain at a fixed bearing to you. The only way to solve that is to move your head.
Personally I HATE A pillars. My own isn't too bad, but the rental C3 I have is terrible. The A pillar is about 6 inches wide and in the worst place possible, especially exiting round abouts. It's in such an awkard position even trying to look round it is difficult.
Same principle applies to navigation at sea. Regardless of right of way we all have responsibility for keeping a 'good lookout' and acting accordingly. If that means having to move your head to improve your view, then so be it. Shame it doesn't seem to be taught anymore judging by some of the comments.
on my drive home there's one bend that lines up exactly with my A pillar, I've previously lost something as large as a tractor! in it.
Thankfully the road is just about wide enough but it's an O**** moment when it's suddenly in your drivers side window!
But they said bigger A pillars are safer! They'll protect you in the crash that they'll cause! Drivers can hardly be bothered to look for things they CAN see, how can we expect them to look for things they CAN'T see?
Last night when l was driving l noticed the moon was at a constant bearing so l was concerned about collision course.
I made a U turn and l went back home for my own safety.
Ok l know the exit…
I used to work for the Ministry of Defence, and know more about missiles than is healthy. Aiming to keep a constant bearing to the target is one way of ensuring you hit it.
Great video. I love when slightly smaller but just as important creator can dive deeper and make follow ups that the biggest creators might not have the time or scope to do.
Thank you for creating a great update video on the road. It's good to see something was actually done to fix a problem.
Thank you, I often miss videos (regardless of whether it's TV or TH-cam) that explain “how it went on!”
I can't believe people were just running the stop sign though, that's completely alien to me!
Thanks for the explanation. Sometimes I see roads like this and scratch my head wondering WTF for. But you and Tom make some valid points.
It's so cool of you to make a video showcasing this update, and even cooler that government actually did something about it. ❤
2:40 In tribute to the Original Tom Scott video, the blue car decides to do its own illegal maneuver on video
and the white car at 3:01
I know this is about an updated junction but the blue car at 2:41 caught my eye here. Interesting position for taking that turn there.
That said I can see how this change would be beneficial for all road users!
Yep. And ironically a cyclist approaching the t-junction to turn right would be in the A-pillar blind spot of that driver. Starting to wonder if driving isn’t for everyone.
I used to pass through this junction and imagine the many reasons why it has been redesigned and now I got the actual answers and it makes sense and I'm glad I wasn't too far off
Don't think I've seen a give way sign with a grey rectangular background before, I thought the reason for the inverted triangle was so you could recognise them when covered in snow same as stop signs.
I noticed this too! Should have checked the comments before making my own
First time I had a near incident from a vehicle hidden behind the pillar it was a light truck... And it was a 90 degree T intersection. Truck speech exactly matched the angle of my vision, and it wasn't until I was just about on the line that it got close enough to be showing past the pillar.
I learnt to move my head around approaching intersections after that.
looking left and right while crossing the road is something they teach you in kindergarten. im assuming it applies to driving a car as well.
Great update. Thanks Ashley. This is a prime example of how infrastructure choices can improve safety.
Ashley, Neal, Tom and Scott, 4 of my favorite people on TH-cam.
Nice update Ash to a sometimes controversial junction, your are well out of your local patch down here, until last year I crossed this junction every working day for 12 years commuting Lyndhurst to Fawley, now retired and moved back to Helsby.
Up until fairly recently there were only give way signs, the stop commands came after numerous vehicle/cyclist collisions and a least 2 I know of were fatal, for a long time there was a white ghost cycle tied to the finger post, I almost got caught out once with 2 cycles side by side my failure totally going from Tesco roundabout towards Lyndhurst, this was the most dangerous approach direction, coming the opposite way was a pretty clear view and, yes early mornings even after the stop signs were added some cars went through at full speed as seen on Toms original video.
I fully endorse the recent engineering modifications shown in your video, likelihood is reduction for further serious injuries or even deaths to cyclists, many thanks for posting.
This is fascinating! In my area we have a couple of roads that do the new pattern and I'd always assumed (yes, I know) that it was just poor planning of the layout. There MAY be a real reason to do this! MAYbe not but we'll give them the benefit of the doubt lol.
I would have expected a roundabout for that amount of money. But it's great that someone made a change to reduce the likelyhood of future accidents.
Ah, Ash and Tom Scott- two TH-camrs who managed to resist the lure of Established Titles ad money. Respect!
Especially as it seems to be a scam
Now that's sensible road planning in action. Shame it took so long for it to happen.
Shame they had to change it in the first place since people would not stop at a stop sign.
Stop signs are an extra level of safety, but they're not supposed to be the only thing preventing an accident. They're also rare (I can only recall two others in the UK other than this one after driving for 30 years) and they also sometime get damaged, so can not be relied on alone even if road users adhered to them 100% of the time. That's why this design was notably dangerous and has been fixed. That was literally the entire point of both videos! 🙂
yep, to accommodate those non-sensible motorists that didn't stop..
@@metromadness2016 To be fair large percentage of motored and cyclist zipped through the Stop sign - anyway a good improvement to this junction.
Watching this, another deadly intersection design comes to mind. Celebration, FL, a town planned and built by the Walt Disney Company in the 1990s, is at the southern end of World Drive (which goes through the whole of Disney World). And it is at this southern end of World Drive at the intersection of it and Celebration Blvd where the bad design is. Just south of it is a lake (nicknamed the Celebration Death Pond), and cars have zoomed so much that they've ended up in that lake because Disney initially didn't put any lights or any indication that there was a lake. Caused so much of a problem that the town built a big wall disguised as a Celebration welcome sign so crashes wouldn't happen. But even with this wall, they still do. Back in October 2021, a 32-year-old's car vaulted over the wall and into the lake, leading to her death.
Is there not a guardrail stopping cars from going into the lake if they aren't paying attention or am I picturing the layout incorrectly?
@@atomknight8361 Nope, just a white fence, the welcome sign, and that's it
Is the Road ends in 600ft sign and 35 mph speed limit sign new?
I feel like driving through a sign and into a lake is a skill issue on the driver's part.
@@Brave_SJ agreed. The only time I can think of when this is not the case is either ice (but in Florida that's not really a problem) or an oil slick or something similar.
Love how during the video several cars in the background cut the corner to enter/exit the new junction.
Great content. I had the exact same thing happen to me many years ago with a motorcycle. The side road was at a bit of an angle and as I approached the motorcycle was hidden behind the mirror of the truck I was driving. I came to a quick complete stop and started to make my left turn when the motorcycle suddenly appeared in front of me. Luckily, the truck was loaded and slow to go and he had plenty of time to clear me and the intersection without evasive action on his part. Scared the stuffing out of me.
Another couple of safety features they could include that they use here in Australia are ripple strips across the road at each side road approach. Drivers slow down when they hit what are essentially three groups of 5-8 miniature speed humps. Plus, side road vehicle detectors that activate through road flashing amber lights, (And in some cases change the speed limit on the through road.) to warn drivers/riders on the through road of vehicles on the side roads.
We have the side-road warning lights heare in the US (Minnesota, to be specific). They call them Rural Intersection Conflict Warning System, or just RICWS. The MnDOT website has stuff on them. Mostly used at rural highway intersections with less-than-ideal visibility, they shouldn't be needed in the wide open like the video location.
Another blinky-light option used here is a stop sign wth an LED in each corner (I think LED-enhanced is the term?). They can increase compliance, but one can still just cruise right by
You can sign and stripe and rumble all you want but if people want to blow through a stop sign you have to physically stop them
@@EoRdE6 True. Concrete walls work well at cleaning that defectiveness from the gene pool.
@@ebnertra0004 I've seen those enhanced stop signs on other videaos. Great Idea in locations where people are more likely to ignore the signs. Don't want to over do it by using them everywhere, as it becomes like Hi-Viz vests. They become so common, no one sees them any more.
sounds like fucking chaos. i get it tho, they need to get your attention somehow because fighting off oversized pests is a part of being an australian motorist. it's only mildly distracting.
My old Montero had no pillar blind spot because the pillars were narrow enough to effectively see through them or past them but when I purchased a Jeep I nearly had many collisions approaching an intersection because another vehicle was approaching in such a manner as to remain in the blind spot. This was especially the case at night where only the headlights need to be blocked from view.
Nice to know that that junction is now so much safer. Thanks for bringing the improvements to our attention.
This is a surprisingly simple solution, which is bound to help out a lot. You can't just ignore the stop sign when you're required to turn
Changing road layouts is a great way to reduce accidents. Signs are all well and good but when the road physically restricts drivers that gets results.
It's a pity people died before the concerns raised were listened to and acted on. An example local to where I lived, an unlit 5 metre wide road with no footpath connecting a large residential area to a university area only got street lights and a footpath after a local pedestrian was knocked down at night, fatally. Local residentants associations had written multiple time to the council requesting lights&footpath for years before the accident. Great videos Ashley, keep them coming, very educational.
If people hadn’t died, the road wouldn’t have needed changing. Accidents and injuries result in change, no accidents - no change (if its not broke dont fix it)
Look at this new layout for example, if nobody dies at this new layout it will probably stay like this for ever - because its not broken, but if the accidents continue its a clear sign the problem still exists and will be changed again
@@cmd2709 Accidents aren't necessarily fatal, action should have taken when the first accident of this kind happened, not after several deaths.
Charles Marohn's 'Confessions of a recovering engineer' is an excellent book that provides a lot of insight into how road engineering profession is utterly broken and why this happens.
Money is released from government based on actuarial cost to economy of blood on the road (deaths and serious injuries) in a given period. Council has to apply for it, it doesn't come out of council's day to day funding allowance, and there's an element of competing for a share of each year's total pot.
Ideally, all new roads would be designed with current knowledge applied to design, but legacy roads have to be fixed
Yes, I remember Tom's video, and I'm glad they've improved the junction.
In Canada, we have used rumble strips (a series of parallel gouged road surface) that creates a loud tire noise ahead of a stop sign in a rural setting.
I remember Tom's video on this.
It seems to me that the reason for the problem at this junction is that drivers think they have perfect visibility and so the stop sign seems to be totally out of place, and thus ignored.
Which makes me wonder if a cheaper fix for this junction would have been to make the reason obvious, by making it a totally blind junction by building a big wall!
that's a neat idea! i can't imagine anyone going through with that but you have to wonder if they at least thought about it
Just an interesting additional point Tom makes which you don’t specifically state here; as you see in the clip at 2:12 the cyclist wouldn’t see the car approaching the junction as the car is behind the cyclist’s position. So as is often the case in clips you show where failings from two parties lead to incidents, there are two effects (bike hidden from driver behind A-pillar, and car hidden from cyclist due to car approaching from behind) which compound one another and increase the risk.
A car approaching from behind a cyclist and blowing through a stop sign, is not a failure on the part of the cyclist.
@@rob-c. Especially when the car has a stop sign.
@@rob-c. 100% agree, it’s not a failing on the part of the cyclist, rather a particular effect that compounds the risk in this case. It’s worth making the point because it shows that the cyclist _cannot_ reasonably take avoiding action here.
What a satisfying second part to tom's original thanks for this
This reminds me of the Dutch approach to traffic safety: Trust Physics, Not People.
Great video, thank you. In fact, it feels so professional, it is like you are a reporter for a television station. All that's missing is the ticker tape and station logo : )
Yes I remember Tom's original video on this as well as a mention in a previous video of Ashley's. Good to see they have addressed this issue but a shame this whole costly redesign had to happen in the first place because drivers totally ignore Stop signs. You could say similar about traffic calming measures such as speed bumps and chicanes. All because some drivers want to drive too fast for the conditions, ultimately inconveniencing everyone by having to have these measures put in place.
Its funny how safety works, the heirarchy for most reliable ways to fix solutions is basically elimination > Engineering/built environment > organization rules > PPE > behavior. And that also usually the same order as decreasing costs so the cheapest solution is "don't fall in that bottomless pit" but the most effective solution is "don't have a bottomless pit in the first place".
Basically the most effective solution is to have the roads intersect at a perfect 90° or offest 2 perfect 90° T intersections. (In NY its legally required that all roads intesecting a state highway 90 onto it for this reason) However, the cheapest solution is for drivers to just obey traffic laws and actually stop and the stop sign, but this is also the least effect since humans are inperfect and someone will always ignore the sign. (Especially problematic in the UK where stopsigns are rare and not habitually obeyed)
In my country this become fixed by cops standing everyday for month and reduce cost of improvement to zero by ticketing Evey driver who ran stop sign.
@@mateuszzimon8216 they wouldn't do that in the USA or UK, I don't know the reason why in USA but in UK we don't have enough traffic officers anymore cos cameras are cheaper......after all, we can't possibly charge more council tax to make the roads safer, that's un-conservative and un- brexshitty.......and we're being "run" (apparently) by brexshitty cuntesrvatives....
@@iandennis7836 Even cheaper than cop, in Poland we have a truck equiped with pole and cameras. I think we used this tactics and week later they have enough money in tickets to get proper remodeling of crossroad.
I watched Tom's video and when I did it is obvious why so many drivers just went straight over the junction, even with 'Stop' signs up.That old layout was asking to be abused and it was at the expense of cyclists. I would say it's money well spent 👍🏻
the problem is it's a quite road with nothing to obstruct visibility. Normally a good thing, but it makes drivers overconfident that the way is clear, no one would assume it's at all possible for a cyclist to remain in a blind spot for that long.
Great update to the junction but I do find it comical that the give way sign is now square. I thought the whole point of only having one sign as an upside down triangle shape was you could then make it out even when covered with snow - kinda defeats the purpose when you print it on a square signage no?
No doubt the options were considered, It's purpose is to be more noticeable against a dark background, but here I would imagine that there's a greater risk of sun glare as it's so exposed, more so than snow which on this road would render it passable only at slow speeds anyway, if at all.
So glad they've finally done it, this was one that got me on to Tom Scott the very day he released it.
However, many accidents occur due to the same type of cause, this problem is more likely with larger A pillars but hard to recognize when it happens.
I think it's because it's an advanced give way warning - the one at 2:40 is a GIVE WAY 100yds therefore if covered with snow, you wouldn't think it's a give way at that point.
I can't see it in the video, but hopefully the actual give way sign at the junction has the correct silhouette
@@xGeorge1337x The one at the junction is also rectangular. You can see it a number of times in the video, mostly from behind (therefore it's not obvious that it's the GIVE WAY sign, but it's the only sign there, and therefore it must be it), but there's a very clear one at 3:24.
@@misterflibble9799 Huh, thank you for correcting me. It really is just dumb then.
Since they made it rectangular, they should have added the yellow backing to the sign as it was an accident blackspot.
A great example of the power of thoughtful design - and also the unexpected consequences of small choices like roads converging at an angle. I don't know why, but angled roads seem to make people less inclined to slow down and look than a right angle intersection. As a cyclist I once had a driver approach an angled intersection and go to roll through, despite me being clearly visible (not behind his A pillar). I shouted at him and luckily he heard and stopped, but I agree with an earlier commenter - you have to pretend you are invisible and act accordingly if you're a cyclist.
Great video, and excellent improvement. Also the unchanged road angle for one of the sides should be countered by the fact that there is no immediately opposite road, so even a less disciplined driver will have to admit that, and slow down. Extreme recklessness cannot be stopped, but that's the same for any road. So, on average, its fatality rate should be sharply declined as compared to previously, to the point of being two normal junctions. No junction is perfect. As pointed out in the video, it's still down to us to be careful.
I will look forward to seeing how many runover tyre tracks there are in the gorse bushes, opposite the stop road markings!
@@andyharpist2938: Haha, part of me is expecting that one person to treat it like the old layout and go through that path 🤣
@@fetchstixRHD Sunday morning, is a good time to go look.
They could have added width restricters in here, although maybe it would need street lights, like speed bumps. That would forced the majority of cars to slow down. That said the solution they put in place looks like it works perfectly.
Yeah, there were plenty of other, cheaper solutions, but I think they went with what they were sure would work, even if it cost more
I cycle in downtown Toronto almost daily. Our difficulties are much different but yet I feel your pain. Nice to see a change for the better.
Are you saying that there is an intersection in the UK that does not have a round-about in it? I'm surprised... :)
When I was over there, it seemed like nearly every intersection had a round-about... I remember seeing one that was so small that the center circle was not much larger than a manhole cover...
Roundabouts are the safest intersections you can design apart from intersections with different levels
Nice to see that they did not put in a roundabout, which seems to be the go to solution in the UK for every traffic problem (where I live they have adopted this unfortunately, the only effect being that traffic on the major roads is obstructed and noise and air pollution is increased)
the key thing they want to preserve is the appearance of the area, so a roundabout would have totally ruined it. What surprises me is the lack of a dedicated turn lane for each junction, but that would mean expanding the road
I wouldn't be against a roundabout only where I live they would more likely have installed traffic lights!
@@DashCamSheffield not to mention it would be far more expensive. A five fold easily.
@@DashCamSheffield I doubt the traffic levels there warrant dedicated turning lanes.
At least that's better than in the US where the only thing they can come up with seems to be to put in a 4-way stop sign.
Never thought of this. Seems like a brilliant solution to mitigate the problem.
The true question is how does such a minor change in the road cost £500,000.
So it was annoying me that this tiny change cost £500,000 so I roughly did the math. Assuming new road is 8 metres wide and 100 metres long (which is generous) this would mean it's 800 metres squared, the average cost to install 50m2 of road is roughly £3,000, this would mean 800m2 is roughly £48,000. Now yes they did have to remove the old road, and maybe some other small modifications such as paint etc. But £48,000 to £500,000? For some paint? And removing an old road? I wish council members would be held accountable for such stupid spending, they should have to reasonably prove the amounts they spend because £440-50,000 seems to have disappeared.
It's also cheaper to get people to read the word "stop"
And if you want, you can further improve this design by creating refuge for cars that want to go right or left + acceleration lanes once you took right, so you have far less traffic conflicts. That only needs to make the road 2 lanes wider for 50 meters or so.
Left turning deceleration lanes actually make intersections *less* safe because left turning vehicles can hide following vehicles. Drivers then pull out of the side road straight into a collision.
Accelleration lanes that are 50m long also make intersections less safe. In order to be safer, you need a full length slip road for 50mph, you are probably talking about a 200m long slip road.
@@georgelane6350 You might be right. Or just make a roundabout.
@@FlorinArjocu I'm a professional road safety engineer so I'd hope I'm right ;) Agree though, a roundabout would definitely be safer, but much more expensive.
@@georgelane6350 Why is a roundabout be that much more expensive?
@@FlorinArjocu You need to build a lot more road. For example, just the circular part is more than 50m in circumference and is wider than a straight two lane road. However, you also need to rebuild at least 50m down each leg of the intersection to tie into the new intersection. My construction costs come from another country, but building costs are similar here. You'd be talking at least 5m pounds for a full sized roundabout and 1.5m pounds for the most compact rural roundabout.
There is a small place called Westlinton on the A7 just out the north of Carlisle, there is a bad junction there which has a similar problem to this one.
If you check street view coming up to the junction from the west side towards the A7 you can’t really see the A7 because of the slight incline and it just looks like a straight through road until the last second when the road appears.
Extra signs and bollards have been put in place to try and prevent accidents like the ones that have happened over the years, but its still a dangerous one.
It makes you wonder how roads and junctions like this get the ok and are put in place to begin with and last so long before anything gets done about it.
Keep up the good work education the nation Ashley and be safe out on the roads everyone.
The fact that people don’t stop at stop signs is such a travesty. I’ve nearly been rear ended a couple of times because I stop and the person behind me hasn’t bothered
that's less an effect of the stop sign and more because the driver behind you doesnt know what brake lights are apparently
My sister had her Lotus Exige trashed by someone that ran a stop sign, hit another car that then spun and crashed into her Lotus and trashing the clam shell front end. The driver was probably looking at their phone.
1:06 seems to be brushed under the carpet all too much nowadays and we could have saved £500k. Something I still do 10 years after passing my test is a proper mirror check and get-out-of-seat before I'm driving off. Something I don't see anyone else do. Being a regular cyclist also helps see the other side and drill it in, I think!
Some motorists have mobility issues and are unable to move themselves to see around the A-piller. Now there should be mirrors or other aids to compensate for this, but many people have an occasional bad back or similar and fail to do anything to compensate for that. Since the risk was not blatantly obvious (to anyone) it would be easy to think you'd checked "enough" and be pacing a cyclist (as shown) without knowing. Safe road design should never have a single point of failure.
@@zbf5h89ftb I always presume that people that say they don't see anyone else doing things that the majority do, are themselves the ones that are failing to observe. 🙂
@@zbf5h89ftb agreed, I definitely hope I'm not the only one in the UK still doing it! I haven't said that no-one else does it, only that others in my sphere don't do it.
In the last few years in Canada we have had two very bad accidents with this type of junction, and drivers not stopping or not seeing the oncoming traffic, both involved trucks hitting large busses.
This is a good fix.
Interesting that they didn't choose to make it a round-about / traffic circle. We had a local junction that was changed from a cross to a traffic circle and that not only reduced accidents but also improved traffic flow significantly.
A roundabout was probably about 4x as expensive.
Traffic flow isn't an issue here. It isn't busy, just dangerous. In fact, not being busy makes it more dangerous because drivers expect they can just blast through the junction.
I remember Tom's video on this junction. You did mention that in fairness the local authorities did have plans in place already, but well done to them for actually executing those plans and in all fairness, they really seem to have done a good job of not only staggering the junction but also of concealing where the roads used to be to look as natural as possible. Although from the air, you can see a trace of course, but that is to be expected.
But 500,000 pounds?!
It's very rare for people to not 'stop' at a stop sign in the USA due to the very heavy penalties, but in a rural situation like this it is common to slow down to 15mph or so and then roll through. That saves your butt from immediate license suspension and, should the worst happen, from civil court nightmares. It's been many years since I've seen someone actually blow a stop sign at full speed in a situation like this and it amazes me that it's so common in the UK.
Are you sure? In many places it's so common to the point they've got terms for it, like "California stop", "rolling stop", "South Philly Slide", etc. Because there are so many unnecessary stop signs in cases where a Yield sign would suffice.
When teaching people to fly I used to highlight the fact that the aircraft which posed a collision threat were more difficult to see as they were maintaining a constant relative bearing and not moving across the windscreen. Aircraft also have pillars between the front and side windows so if an aircraft is hiding behind the pillar you're not going to see it until it is filling the windscreen or maybe until you collide. The solution is what we call "rubber necking" - move your head forward and aft of the pillar from time to time and in particular at choke points.|
This principle also applies when looking for other road users approaching junctions.
I was woken by new crew, scared that a ships mast-head light was on a direct collision course with our yacht, once. It was indeed bright and rising. Until I saw it was Venus.
one of the vehicles I sometimes drive was built such that at any junction, anything that was a potential danger was hidden behind the A-pillar and mirror. the mirrors were since replaced by ones that aren't so obnoxious, but the visibility out of the normal driving position is still terrible.
Brilliant! The relatively low cost fix probably saved scores of lives over the lifespan of the junction.
half milliond pound for 50 meter road with 2 lanes is low cost ? smh
@@serdarcam99 If the road is built correctly it will last a long time. It's better to spend more upfront than to have to rebuild every 5-7 years.
@@serdarcam99 yes, that is low cost compared to the deaths that had occurred or any other physical changes that might have been made
@@georgelane6350 it still doesent change it is just a 50 meter long 2 line road
@@serdarcam99 'just' a 300m^2 road built and removed in a swamp, next to live traffic.
There are many staggered intersections like this in country Australia where everyone slows down for stop signs anyway even if they do not actually stop.
Back in the 70s, narrow A pillars were advertised as safety features on cars but have widened in recent decades due to airbags amongst other design requirements.
Spot on. My mum has a Holden Barina and the pillar so so wide that it is easy to miss a semi coming towards you on the left.
It's nice ro know this intersection was corrected. Tom's video on this intersection is one of only a handful of videos since youtube's inception to elicit an audible gasp from me.
Half a million may seem like a lot of bread but in monetary terms alone, with each death costing £2m (I think that's correct) then it's worth it without counting the incalculable amount in human terms. I read that each death directly affects an average of 12 people. Having lost three school friends (in my class alone including my best mate) and a cousin, in RTC's then I know all about heartbreak. I became an advanced driver, and encouraged many others to do the same. I truly believe we should train people to this level, at least.
"without counting the incalculable amount in human terms."
Not necessarily incalculable. E.g. you could get an estimation from the amount of money people would be willing to pay for living a year longer and the estimated years taken through the death.
I’m more concerned about why it cost £500k to build a road that short. I did a 300m single track for less than £20k
Even if they're only injured you have to think about how much that costs the NHS. Moreso if they're permenantly disabled by the accident.
I worry that public budgeting is a lot better at paying for a pound of cure than an ounce of prevention (because it's a difficult problem not because people aren't trying to fix it).
@@climatechangedoesntbargain9140 I see what you mean although I was thinking about the loss and heartache of those who were left. Last Thursday a young mother was killed at a crossroads near us. She leaves three children. A male driver was arrested at the scene who it turns out, has a string of motoring offences.
Any road alterations are shockingly expensive. Constructing a single track driveway on your own land is a different league to building a highway, which is engineered to much higher standards.
I remember watching the original video and suggesting a cheaper fix at the time. Plant trees and bushes along the roads, blocking line of sight to the other road and making it uncomfortable for drivers to continue without slowing down to check if the road is clear. I think what they've done will help a lot. But I still think they should line the roads with line of sight blocking bushes and trees to ensure drivers have to slow down to check the road as there is still a risk of drivers pulling out and colliding with cyclists when they think the road is clear.
They will still just drive out.
There's an angled t junction near me which when I use it I have to come to a near stop because until the last 5m or so trees, hedge and a school! block your view of the main 60mph road.
Yet regularly when I'm on that main road twunts will pull out right in front of me still doing 20 mph or so with no sign they could stop if they bothered to see me.
I'd like to see this made 90 degrees to the main road not 45 it currently is.
In America I've had the same issue at 4-way intersections, where the right speed and angle leave an A-Pillar blind spot causing me to not see a vehicle coming towards me if I'm set up to turn left into traffic.