Two days ago I binged through Jimmy's audiobook "The Bible is a Catholic Book" (definitely plan on listening to that again) and today a new episode drops. This has been a crazy week and Jimmy's relaxing voice, kind attitude, and critical thinking has helped me maintain my sanity. Keep up the great work!
Hey Jimmy and Don, I love listening to the podcast driving between my two parishes (48 miles one way), but I wanted to check out some of the visuals so I just checked out the video as well. In the first part where you are both describing and explaining the linguistic origins made me feel like I was listening to Danel Jackson on Stargate SG1 explaining some ancient device so I was half expecting a gate address or some other alien clue (because it is always aliens) hidden in the device. I do appreciate the linguistic explanations from Hebrew as I only had some Greek and Latin in seminary so no clue about that ancient language. Keep up the good work. Fr. David
I think the purple comes from a gland inside of the snail. And it takes quite a bit of snails to make a small amount of dye. I saw an episode Somewhere where this gentleman is trying To keep this old knowledge from being lost. Thank you For all that you do.
To be fair, I think soldiers would benefit the best from a midday meal because of the amount of calories you burn fighting. Even if they were fasting, they don't fight every single day and most likely are not accustomed to burning 2000 excess calories by midday. Just a thought. Loved the episode as always!
Urim and Thummim is "lights" and "perfections" in Hebrew. The plural is critically important. As is the conception that Urim and Thummim were prepared and dedicated as an instrument of the Lord. These were sacred and not to be used for fortune-telling. I see many people saying this was a binary system and you only got a GO/NO-GO message. If we consider the questions where lights were needed; that is, things hidden that needed illumination lest the people be blinded by darkness, what might "lights" reveal in our lives? And what could be revealed about "perfections" as we accept "lights" and thus draw closer to God? I can't say I know the exact mechanism of action, but I testify of the power of God and say that a revelation to the honest seeker of Urim and Thummim must have been an awesome experience.
Really great episode! I love the biblical mysteries, especially the OT stuff since I tend to nerd out over that time period. I’m curious if there are any theories as to why we don’t hear about the Urim and Thummim earlier in Genesis if they were already in existence among the Hebrews. Also, I love Jonathan! He always comes across as a really likable guy. Glad his dad didn’t execute him for something that wasn’t really his fault.
I'm not an expert, but still... this is my feeling after having read the old testament: Moses (or Aaron, Joshua) is the first to write down the oral history of the Hebrews and that's why things happen so fast and generations skip by until you get to Exodus where things slow down to almost day-by-day happenings. Also very possible that some things started to get written down in the time of Joseph (letters, deeds, diaries, contracts) and later were compiled into the Genesis narrative. Same goes for the time of Moses if it turns out that Joshua is responsible for finally getting things down on paper, er, papyrus, in the narrative form we see in Exodus. I would think that Moses at least kept a diary or had a secretary keeping notes and writing out letters in long form - ancient Hebrew might have started out as shorthand for hieroglyphics
I didn't ever pay them much mind, perhaps I didn't even know of them, but now I see this as a very interesting topic, thank you for a great episode, I love your thorough style
I was a bit surprised that it took until roughly minute 57 to get the point that one can get complex or detailed results by asking multiple binary questions. Even the details about an attack can come from asking if one should attack or not, then the paths of attack (front, back, sides, etc.) one at a time, then the timing (ASAP, day, night, etc.). If it hadn't come up in the episode, I would have had to bring it up myself. I guess I did, in a way, but was glad the point was already made.
"The meal of noon" (la comida de mediodía) is also used for lunch in Spanish. It's typically shortened to "comida" (meal) and thus your usual three meals are called breakfast, "meal", and dinner/supper (desayuno, comida, cena).
I always wonder who thought of this stuff first - like creating dye from snail slime. How many snails did they try first? How does one collect the slime? 😅
@@Flyingcar100 something that this reminds me of is a story that I heard a long time ago, about medicine men/women and shamen experimenting with plants and herbs. They would test the "cooked" product on themselves or cats or rats. They would use different methods like steaming, boiling, smoking, drying out then burning. They used cauldrons. They kept a wisk broom near the fire to wisk/sweep embers back into the fire if they blew out. Often, the fumes or smoke from what was cooking would effect them, and when a family member or neighbor would come by and ask, "Where have you been?" ,or, " What are you doing?", the person would say, "I've been flying.", or. "I am flying." Because the person had a broom in their hands, this is how a broom became associated with witches. So many people were accused wrongly of witchcraft when they were only experimenting for medicinal reasons. So, when I heard this explanation, I learned that this is how a broom, cauldrons, cats and rats became associated with witches . There were actually evil, satanic people who used these items who were real witches too. They would make/sell snake oil and other rubbish potions for profit.
Assuming that the urim and thummim did give more complex answers than yes and no, it seems to me that they might have been a kind of lithomancy. The priest would cast the stones and then interpret the message from God based on possibly several factors, such as position and location and if they’re reflecting light we’re they landed. There could be a stone for every tribe and it could also be that the number of stones used changed based on the kind of question asked. For example if it was a yes or no question maybe few stones were used but more complex questions could have used more stones. As far as interpreting them I’m sure there were some guidelines but of course it’s mainly up to the priest to interpret the answer.
c. 1:04:27 "The king is hiding in the baggage" and David's complex battle strategy can also be achieved through a series of yes-no questions. I'm a little surprised Jimmy doesn't mention this, as his prior discussion does imply it.
Imagine that a color deemed only for high priest or royalty now for normal person. How far we've come you can wear purple and not die even thou everything is grey in reality
Hmm. I’m picturing something like a Fudge die now, with one or two surfaces being ‘Urim, one or two being Thummin, and one or two being blank. Maybe rolled like dice or spun like a dreidel
In response to the 2 Sam 5:22-25, I had a thought. You mention that the U&T gives simple and complex messages, that it seems like it is giving a one in twelve answer at one point, and just prior to that, you describe ancient Israel as “full of prophets.” I wonder if this was something where the U&T indicated a specific prophet out of a particular number of people offering prophecy? I remember when God is discussing whether or not to have king Ahab die in battle, he consults his divine council, who seem to have varying opinions. I would think this would mirror their own experiences as this is not uncommon in human life. Maybe U&T indicated which prophecy to believe?
Perhaps this is just me imposing modern styles on the Biblical text, but a group of objects that can fit into a chest pouch named "light" and "perfect", suggests a pair of gemstones. If they were different colors, they could have used for lots. Additionally, cut gemstones have facets, which (if different enough) could have increased the bandwidth by including which facet was shown.
That's likely more due to the unique quirks of the English language, as the letters are not consistently read, but that would probably not affect Hebrew
As for the way the letters move, why would you limit what God can do? Maybe many different apprarances could likely happen depending on the situation and how God needed to communicate. Also, I looked at the dog vision pictures. Reminded me what my vision was like before cataract surgery. Poor doggos!
Dice were invented independently. They developed several times, but in the west they are thought to have developed from astragulus/talus bone (knucklebone) of sheep, which were used for divination. This is why the game of dice is sometimes referred to as "knucklebones."
Please do the Mandela Effect. A new one just came to light. Mirrors on cars say "objects in mirrors are closer than they appear" while many others, including myself remember them saying "objects in mirrors MAY be closer than they appear". The movie Jurrasic Park with this gag even has it changed as well. PLEASE Mr. Akin! This must be investigated
Hm. I don't remember it as 'may be', only 'are'. I think this one only 'works' for people who never read the text on the car mirror. What I do remember is asking myself as a child how the object could be closer than it appeared, and then learning about convex and concave shapes.
About the Mandela effect....I saw videos of Koko the Gorilla who learned sign language. I thought she had passed. But when I realized she was still alive , I was so happy! But , when she actually passed, I was sad again. I don't know how I could have been so confused about her death.
@@row1landrHave you heard of other people having this false memory of Koko's death? I think it only counts as a Mandela effect if multiple people share the same false memory.
Can you answer this question. I don't like the idea the the high priest has a magic 8 ball and dice used to talk to God and make decision of war or questions. Flip a coin heads you win tails you lose
Update: Edited opening to not seem so rude. Sorry. You didn`t actually ask a question just stated your opinion. Speaking of dice and coins though, looking at these as conveyance methods for the transmission of data these are binary or essentially multiple choice for a few integers and these are just basic data structures which, is why so many use them for deciding things by chance. However this is little different than asking God for a sign but with the benefit of not requiring a miracle and having a set means of interpretation. More importantly, if sanctioned by the Lord or Moses, it is reliable as God would be blessing it. As it is a part of the Book of Leviticus`s description of the Aaronic high priest`s garb, it would be highly problematic if it were not God`s will. Obviously, the Lord answers when He wishes to so it does not in any way tie God`s hands, and He clearly still uses visions and the like to communicate as well. The fact that they are no longer identifiable to Jewish or Christian religious authorities on top of the lack of an Aaronic high priest for over a millennia, seem a pretty good indicator that these no longer serve such a capacity anymore though. For a contemporary semi-counterpart, consider the liquification of the blood of St.Janarius the pope checks every year as a sign of favor from God. It is not binding at all, but it is not condemned neither. Not the same but in a similar category of being a consistent sign from the Lord.
God works through his creation as a painter can make use of a brush. There is no logical need for a dichotomy between God's action and the material world. God can use the material world.
"Growing your TH-cam channel" makes sense from a secular business perspective, but not so much from a Christian perspective. Why not instead use Rumble?
If you can only get a binary message couldn’t you use Morris Code or something? In this case it would be the or something since Morris Code was obviously not invented at that point.
Why are they both fat? Too much meat and carbs and sugar-saturated beverages, not enough vegetables and exercise? Moreover, St Ignatius of Antioch urges Christians to "devote [them]selves to fasting and prayer": How much do American Roman Catholics fast?
Two days ago I binged through Jimmy's audiobook "The Bible is a Catholic Book" (definitely plan on listening to that again) and today a new episode drops. This has been a crazy week and Jimmy's relaxing voice, kind attitude, and critical thinking has helped me maintain my sanity. Keep up the great work!
Definitely the best and most confusing Uma Thurman talk I have ever heard. Keep up the great work!
I love how in touch Jimmy is with his inner boy, even at his "advanced age." 😆👍🏻
You did a wonderful job of explaining these mysterious ancient objects.
Hey Jimmy and Don, I love listening to the podcast driving between my two parishes (48 miles one way), but I wanted to check out some of the visuals so I just checked out the video as well. In the first part where you are both describing and explaining the linguistic origins made me feel like I was listening to Danel Jackson on Stargate SG1 explaining some ancient device so I was half expecting a gate address or some other alien clue (because it is always aliens) hidden in the device. I do appreciate the linguistic explanations from Hebrew as I only had some Greek and Latin in seminary so no clue about that ancient language. Keep up the good work. Fr. David
Thank you for what you both do. I’ve leaned so much
Perspective is everything, I guess. My husband just chimed in with, "You're wearing snail snot!"
I think the purple comes from a gland inside of the snail. And it takes quite a bit of snails to make a small amount of dye. I saw an episode Somewhere where this gentleman is trying To keep this old knowledge from being lost. Thank you For all that you do.
To be fair, I think soldiers would benefit the best from a midday meal because of the amount of calories you burn fighting. Even if they were fasting, they don't fight every single day and most likely are not accustomed to burning 2000 excess calories by midday. Just a thought. Loved the episode as always!
Thank you for making this video; I have for many years been curious to know more about the U&T.
Urim and Thummim is "lights" and "perfections" in Hebrew. The plural is critically important. As is the conception that Urim and Thummim were prepared and dedicated as an instrument of the Lord. These were sacred and not to be used for fortune-telling. I see many people saying this was a binary system and you only got a GO/NO-GO message. If we consider the questions where lights were needed; that is, things hidden that needed illumination lest the people be blinded by darkness, what might "lights" reveal in our lives? And what could be revealed about "perfections" as we accept "lights" and thus draw closer to God?
I can't say I know the exact mechanism of action, but I testify of the power of God and say that a revelation to the honest seeker of Urim and Thummim must have been an awesome experience.
Correct me if I am wrong, but at 40:50 , is number 3 some D&D dice? Did they ever roll with a +2 for perception?
Really great episode! I love the biblical mysteries, especially the OT stuff since I tend to nerd out over that time period. I’m curious if there are any theories as to why we don’t hear about the Urim and Thummim earlier in Genesis if they were already in existence among the Hebrews. Also, I love Jonathan! He always comes across as a really likable guy. Glad his dad didn’t execute him for something that wasn’t really his fault.
I'm not an expert, but still... this is my feeling after having read the old testament: Moses (or Aaron, Joshua) is the first to write down the oral history of the Hebrews and that's why things happen so fast and generations skip by until you get to Exodus where things slow down to almost day-by-day happenings. Also very possible that some things started to get written down in the time of Joseph (letters, deeds, diaries, contracts) and later were compiled into the Genesis narrative. Same goes for the time of Moses if it turns out that Joshua is responsible for finally getting things down on paper, er, papyrus, in the narrative form we see in Exodus. I would think that Moses at least kept a diary or had a secretary keeping notes and writing out letters in long form - ancient Hebrew might have started out as shorthand for hieroglyphics
Oops, so the specific worship rituals started with Moses, and documented in his time. Before that it seems everyone had private family worship.
Fantastic episode, as always.
I didn't ever pay them much mind, perhaps I didn't even know of them, but now I see this as a very interesting topic, thank you for a great episode, I love your thorough style
I was a bit surprised that it took until roughly minute 57 to get the point that one can get complex or detailed results by asking multiple binary questions. Even the details about an attack can come from asking if one should attack or not, then the paths of attack (front, back, sides, etc.) one at a time, then the timing (ASAP, day, night, etc.). If it hadn't come up in the episode, I would have had to bring it up myself. I guess I did, in a way, but was glad the point was already made.
It could have been David asked all of his advisors to come up with a plan and then asked God which plan to follow.
@@tyrannosaurusimperator This seems like the most likely and simplist solution.
Awesome episode! I love the OT mystery shows.
"The meal of noon" (la comida de mediodía) is also used for lunch in Spanish. It's typically shortened to "comida" (meal) and thus your usual three meals are called breakfast, "meal", and dinner/supper (desayuno, comida, cena).
que paso con la almuerza?
@@enijize1234 I don't do almuerzo. It's not a common word in my region. We use desayuno, comida y cena.
I always wonder who thought of this stuff first - like creating dye from snail slime. How many snails did they try first? How does one collect the slime? 😅
Another thing I kind of wonder is how people determined what plants were safe to eat and which were not.
Remember the wise words of Sir Terry Pratchett: "All mushrooms are edible. Some are only edible once."
Delectable treat or deadly poison
You milk the 🦐
@@Flyingcar100 something that this reminds me of is a story that I heard a long time ago, about medicine men/women and shamen experimenting with plants and herbs. They would test the "cooked" product on themselves or cats or rats. They would use different methods like steaming, boiling, smoking, drying out then burning. They used cauldrons. They kept a wisk broom near the fire to wisk/sweep embers back into the fire if they blew out. Often, the fumes or smoke from what was cooking would effect them, and when a family member or neighbor would come by and ask, "Where have you been?" ,or, " What are you doing?", the person would say, "I've been flying.", or. "I am flying."
Because the person had a broom in their hands, this is how a broom became associated with witches. So many people were accused wrongly of witchcraft when they were only experimenting for medicinal reasons.
So, when I heard this explanation, I learned that this is how a broom, cauldrons, cats and rats became associated with witches . There were actually evil, satanic people who used these items who were real witches too. They would make/sell snake oil and other rubbish potions for profit.
Assuming that the urim and thummim did give more complex answers than yes and no, it seems to me that they might have been a kind of lithomancy.
The priest would cast the stones and then interpret the message from God based on possibly several factors, such as position and location and if they’re reflecting light we’re they landed.
There could be a stone for every tribe and it could also be that the number of stones used changed based on the kind of question asked.
For example if it was a yes or no question maybe few stones were used but more complex questions could have used more stones.
As far as interpreting them I’m sure there were some guidelines but of course it’s mainly up to the priest to interpret the answer.
c. 1:04:27 "The king is hiding in the baggage" and David's complex battle strategy can also be achieved through a series of yes-no questions. I'm a little surprised Jimmy doesn't mention this, as his prior discussion does imply it.
It appears to me that Jimmy is wearing a purple shirt today. How fitting.
Imagine that
a color deemed only for high priest or royalty now for normal person. How far we've come you can wear purple and not die even thou everything is grey in reality
@@ordinary_deepfakeJimmy Akin is extraordinary enough he can get away with wearing purple.
I've really warmed to this Thummim...
Hmm. I’m picturing something like a Fudge die now, with one or two surfaces being ‘Urim, one or two being Thummin, and one or two being blank. Maybe rolled like dice or spun like a dreidel
A commenter mentioned stones being tossed/dropped/read by the king. Wouldn't that be divination/necromancy?
Wasn't that forbidden?
In response to the 2 Sam 5:22-25, I had a thought. You mention that the U&T gives simple and complex messages, that it seems like it is giving a one in twelve answer at one point, and just prior to that, you describe ancient Israel as “full of prophets.” I wonder if this was something where the U&T indicated a specific prophet out of a particular number of people offering prophecy? I remember when God is discussing whether or not to have king Ahab die in battle, he consults his divine council, who seem to have varying opinions. I would think this would mirror their own experiences as this is not uncommon in human life. Maybe U&T indicated which prophecy to believe?
St. Francis de Sales actually makes the connection between Urim and Thummim and Papal Infallibility.
Perhaps this is just me imposing modern styles on the Biblical text, but a group of objects that can fit into a chest pouch named "light" and "perfect", suggests a pair of gemstones. If they were different colors, they could have used for lots. Additionally, cut gemstones have facets, which (if different enough) could have increased the bandwidth by including which facet was shown.
Magic rocks from Bronze Age superstitions and fables. Moving on.
Is there no agreed-upon pronunciation for 'Urim and Thummim"? I've heard several different ways, and you guys seem to go between all of them here.
My Israeli friend had no problem pronouncing it. Accent on the final syllable
That's likely more due to the unique quirks of the English language, as the letters are not consistently read, but that would probably not affect Hebrew
Jimmy pronounced it only one way throughout the entire episode.
@@AetheriusLamiaI think there was one point when he talked about the Mormon glasses when he pronounced it the Mormon way.
It is a shame Mr. Jimmy refuses to roll his "r's" 😢
I think Paolo coehlo used this stuff in his book, the alchemist
As for the way the letters move, why would you limit what God can do? Maybe many different apprarances could likely happen depending on the situation and how God needed to communicate.
Also, I looked at the dog vision pictures. Reminded me what my vision was like before cataract surgery. Poor doggos!
Typo in the video description: "Thummim" is "Thummin"
@YAJUN YUAN That's right, yet the description says "Thummin".
Bruh. What if he just spoke to them?
Dice were invented from this?
Dice were invented independently. They developed several times, but in the west they are thought to have developed from astragulus/talus bone (knucklebone) of sheep, which were used for divination. This is why the game of dice is sometimes referred to as "knucklebones."
@@JimmyAkin you know that really impressed me because black American slang calls them "bones" popularized in the 80s, that intelligence blows my mind
@@ordinary_deepfake In Polish dice is 'kość' which also means 'bone'.
@@JimmyAkin Never in my life have I heard that 'knucklebones' word outside of a discussion about fist-fights.
@@JimmyAkinThe part of this that is so amazing to me is sheep have knuckles.
Please do the Mandela Effect. A new one just came to light. Mirrors on cars say "objects in mirrors are closer than they appear" while many others, including myself remember them saying "objects in mirrors MAY be closer than they appear". The movie Jurrasic Park with this gag even has it changed as well.
PLEASE Mr. Akin! This must be investigated
Hm. I don't remember it as 'may be', only 'are'. I think this one only 'works' for people who never read the text on the car mirror. What I do remember is asking myself as a child how the object could be closer than it appeared, and then learning about convex and concave shapes.
About the Mandela effect....I saw videos of Koko the Gorilla who learned sign language. I thought she had passed. But when I realized she was still alive , I was so happy! But , when she actually passed, I was sad again. I don't know how I could have been so confused about her death.
@@row1landrHave you heard of other people having this false memory of Koko's death? I think it only counts as a Mandela effect if multiple people share the same false memory.
Can you answer this question.
I don't like the idea the the high priest has a magic 8 ball and dice used to talk to God and make decision of war or questions. Flip a coin heads you win tails you lose
Update: Edited opening to not seem so rude. Sorry.
You didn`t actually ask a question just stated your opinion.
Speaking of dice and coins though, looking at these as conveyance methods for the transmission of data these are binary or essentially multiple choice for a few integers and these are just basic data structures which, is why so many use them for deciding things by chance. However this is little different than asking God for a sign but with the benefit of not requiring a miracle and having a set means of interpretation. More importantly, if sanctioned by the Lord or Moses, it is reliable as God would be blessing it. As it is a part of the Book of Leviticus`s description of the Aaronic high priest`s garb, it would be highly problematic if it were not God`s will. Obviously, the Lord answers when He wishes to so it does not in any way tie God`s hands, and He clearly still uses visions and the like to communicate as well.
The fact that they are no longer identifiable to Jewish or Christian religious authorities on top of the lack of an Aaronic high priest for over a millennia, seem a pretty good indicator that these no longer serve such a capacity anymore though.
For a contemporary semi-counterpart, consider the liquification of the blood of St.Janarius the pope checks every year as a sign of favor from God. It is not binding at all, but it is not condemned neither. Not the same but in a similar category of being a consistent sign from the Lord.
God works through his creation as a painter can make use of a brush. There is no logical need for a dichotomy between God's action and the material world. God can use the material world.
Plot twist: they were literally Magic 8 balls that the priest shook for an answer. How did they get them? Time Lords.
"Growing your TH-cam channel" makes sense from a secular business perspective, but not so much from a Christian perspective. Why not instead use Rumble?
If you can only get a binary message couldn’t you use Morris Code or something? In this case it would be the or something since Morris Code was obviously not invented at that point.
I think that's what they were talking about when they brought up people waiting for twenty knocks to get a single letter at a seance.
It should also be noted that Josephus never met "Jesus" and they lived at different times.
Crim roll the u root for criminology law of the land
Divination.....
Until now israel is guided..
Why are they both fat? Too much meat and carbs and sugar-saturated beverages, not enough vegetables and exercise? Moreover, St Ignatius of Antioch urges Christians to "devote [them]selves to fasting and prayer": How much do American Roman Catholics fast?
I normally conduct a 22-hour fast every day (except Sundays, the Lord's Day).