139. Setting The Record Straight (Part 1) w/ Stu McGill
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 มี.ค. 2024
- In this episode, Chris sat down with Stu McGill and Marc Surdyka. Stu provided more context surrounding his previous podcast interview with Peter Attia in addition to our recent episode discussing some of Stu’s claims during his conversation with Peter.
We dove into a variety of topics including: deadlifting in older adults, promoting resilience, disc bulges, adapting exercises for specific needs, lumbar flexion, and much more.
Peter Attia w/ Stu McGill: • 287 ‒ Lower back pain:...
E3 Rehab Podcast: Episode 137. E3 Rehab vs Stu McGill: Back to Reality: • 137. E3 Rehab vs Stu M...
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Disclaimer: The information presented is not intended as medical advice or to be a substitute for medical counseling but is intended for entertainment purposes only. If you are experiencing pain, please seek the appropriate healthcare professional. - บันเทิง
There is a reason Prof. Emeritus McGill was awarded an Order of Canada. Thank you for your contribution and your interest in still presenting your work, even though we know your wife wants you to ride a bike with her. Passion for his work.
You got that right Doc!!
Dr McGill continues to share his years of knowledge around the nuances of back injury mechanisms and how to recover and manage. The countless interviews highlight the challenging nature of how best to manage all the varieties of back pain that people experience. The complex nature of each person and the various factors that come into play are the exact reason why there cannot be a cut and dried algorithm or CPR (clinical prediction rule) that fits well into categories. Hence the reason for the profession wide struggle to find successful treatments that fit across a wide variety of people. Back rehab unfortunately can never be a scalable formula for the masses. Thank you for a great podcast and thank you Professor once again for sharing more pearls. We appreciate you!!
~ Cara Wurst, PT
This hard training PT from the great State of South Dakota appreciates Dr. McGill's work. Your philosophy has helped me through training injuries and has benefited my clients. Thank you much Sir!
As a 50 year old female backpatient.. (due to illness ) and a former trainer ( which saved my life) .. i clearly understood back then during the interview that Prof Mcgill was speaking in context.. as he always does. That is actually his main message. He meant a person of a certain age with certain backinjuries. He talked about the mechanism of certain injuries how to sustain, aggravate.. etc.. Perhaps it was obvious to me because i have a background in Physiotherapy? I was really surprised what twisted reactions came out with certain people. I cannot imagine.. they can be good trainers for a certain population since they do not seem to understand the importance of "context" at all in any training program.. Even in profesional rehab/physio/paintrajectory settings in my country.. they all give the same exercises for "back issues". Which ofcourse.. are not tailered and sometimes even harmfull to individuals. It is the same wrong mindset as always. His explanations had nothing to do with "people of age should not deadlift".. Prof. Mcgill really advocates otherwise, that is the basis of his practice. I find it even scary they interpreted it in black/white. It means they just do not have enough underlying knowledge about the human body as he does. Which is understandable... and they have no assessment skills.. but just copy exercises. A recipe for disaster in the long run. As we see in practice for so many back patients in despair.. So be mindfull and learn something.. Become a better practitioner for those people who shouldn't deadlift .. Practicing the insights of Prof. Mcgill augemented my life quality tremendously. I cannot deadlift indeed... But i can carry my groceries again, clean my place, cook,... and other daily living activities that kept me from living independently or having a social life. I train with weights still, but according to what is needed with my injuries and their effects on my total body in mind. I plan to do so as long as i can and enjoy my newly found independence.
McGill seems to approach back pain from such a different perspective than I'm used to as a new-generation physiotherapist. I would love to see a conversation between Stuart McGill and Peter O'Sullivan.
Peter O'Sullivan did not spend the time in the trenches long enough to learn about the bottom up anatomy? Early in his career, did he not 'give up' on learning about the anatomy in more depth?
@@Dynamicdiscdesigns'Learning about the anatomy in more depth' as a means to explain and treat many painful conditions has failed many patients. It's time to look further.
Yes, that is what McGill has done! Well said.@@digitalobserved
@@JeromeFryerI meant looking beyond anatomy and biomechanics. While they are significant, focusing solely or primarily on them is often insufficient for adequately treating patients with painful conditions.
Yes, of course. We care for the human with anatomy. That, to me, seems obvious.@@digitalobserved
I want to caveat this comment by saying I never comment on TH-cam but as a long time follower and advocate of E3, it’s nice to get involved in the discussion somewhat. But, guys, this was a bit of a hard listen! But it was definitely insightful! Thank you Mark and Chris for putting this together, it’s great to see discussion and disagreement between revered professionals and long may this continue. To start off with, the presentation Dr McGill brought to the table, although probably very well intended, almost came across as an appeal to closure fallacy, almost rendering any subsequent conversation as reductio ad absurdum. I couldn’t help but feel a sense of restraint and some sense of frustration from particularly Mark, throughout the discussion aspect of the podcast which followed. I was particularly disturbed with comments from Dr McGill about discs not being ‘virgin’ discs any more and being unable to adapt when degeneration is present, but with up to 37% of asymptomatic 20 year olds presenting with degenerative discs on MRI systematic reviews, where’s the hope? I might be entirely misunderstanding things but that’s where the confusion sets in. I don’t think any of us are here to attack or lambast anyone, but I’m struggling to get a sense of Dr McGills comfort in the grey areas that are abundant in MSK health, which you (Mark) we’re trying to tease out with some of the questioning. Getting case study after case study and anecdotal evidence that led to what sounded like confirmation bias from Stu. Let’s just say - I’m very excited for Part 2 whenever that may come out. For now I’ll remain optimistic in the adaptability and resilience of the human body, when it isn’t looked at on a Petri dish but as a complex system.
Just curious, do you have a history of back injury? The reason I ask is I am 100% a McGill follower all the way and. Have been rehabbing all of 2023 using his principles and working with a clinician. I am back to lifting relatively pain free (still probably need another 6-9 months of adaptations for heavy loads), and I totally get the feeling of sadness that my discs will never be the same. But now I've accepted the. Reality of it and the optimism that I can adapt my NEW (damaged) spine to bear load even greater than before.
It is truly an HONOR to have Dr. McGill on this podcast and I hope that the hosts appreciate his gracious and valuable time.
The whole adaptation thing talked about by stu is what he says it was after that it's more about managing rather than adapting. The hope is that it can be managed well enough to do the things you want to do pain free. He gave the example of having a baseball player sitting with a lumbar support rather than on a floppy couch so that it did not steal his capacity to perform on game day that is an example of managing his injury. If that baseball player didn't have lofty performance goal he likely could get away with some couch sitting.
@@NmdresserThat's what you call anecdote my friend
lets get adam meakins and mcgill on the same podcast
Navigating the sea of too much social media salt. Bravo Stu!
Yes
Thank you Stu for continuing to promote Dymanic Disc Designs, even when he has never been asked to demonstrate!
Great episode! I learned a ton, appreciate Stu for being willing to talk about the nuances
Incredible explanations Stuart
You guys are WAAAAAAAAAAY too diplomatic. I applaud you.
DR MCGILL is amazing ….context is everything
How gracious of Dr McGill to come on and patiently educate you guys with his knowledge and expertise after you completely misrepresented and misunderstood his work and criticized him when you haven't even read his books or taken the time to appreciate his research
there’s nothing special about the mcgill method
@@arezzhang2892 have you rehabbed an athlete with a broken sacrum to a 1300lb squat? Didn't think so
@@SterlingHancock well said,,, mcgill is the best,,,, he helped me reading his books,,I dont know what has gone on yet Mcgill is a very important teacher.... He knows what the back can do and cant do If you want a good back follow him... The gym is a dangerous place and the machines "will fuck ones back" MCGILL we love you
@@SterlingHancockno I'm not a clinician,I have back pain myself and I can manage the pain without living like a robot
I agree. Anyone who knows Stu would know context matters etc for everything.
For me, the biggest take away from this is that the discs and the vertebrae do not get stronger as an adaptation to deadlifts. I remember hearing somewhere, could've been from Mark Rippetoe (I am not 100% sure), that our bodies do adapt. I think there are ppl who can get away with heavy exercises under flexion, just like there are those can smoke for years. Maybe those are the ones with less "flexible" spines. Before the powerlifting Nazis come after me, I'd say that doing the classic powerlifting movements can probably be done safely if you don't go too heavy and keep good form. But let's face it, how many young guys out there are not gonna try to PR every time they're in the gym. From personal experience, my one big advice would be to always do the deadlift on a deadlift platform, or at least a very flat and firm surface. A few years ago, at this newly opened gym, I made the mistake of deadlifting on this cushioned floor, which turned out to be a little uneven and the weight shifter to my left. I ended up with L1-L5 herniation with radiculopathy. It took months before I regained full function of my left leg. I never went back to lifting anything heavy. About a year and a half later, I gained some weight and started running to compensate for the extra calories and that high impact aggravated my lower back to a point where somedays I had trouble getting out of bed. I am still working on fully recovering. I am able to walk for 20 minutes, then sciatica kicks in, taking a 1 minute sitting break helps. I'm able to continue my walk. I do stretches and also ride my recumbent stationary bike. I'm able to weight train, but I don't do anything that loads my spine. I use mostly machines. The lat pulldown seems to help decompress my spine. Body weight walking lunges feel great for my lower body.
I think Dr McGill would say that the spine can adapt and does but you can't overstress it or you will go beyond the "tipping point" and cause injury.
What exactly is the "disagreement" between these guys and Dr McGill? I didn't really catch one of any significance. Perhaps it was just a misinterpretation. That said, I've never seen him want to get off a podcast faster than this one. He all but said "leave me alone!" lol
I would have liked it if stus Show would have stoped at points. Summarized and discussed of appropiate. The Mountain of Said Things feels so wobbely to argue and hard to follow.
Like: Discs dont heal this study blabla
Okay we got this study blabla
Why do i Trust this source More Than this...
Next point
I could follow better, with structerd speakerswitch
17:00
In short God has made degenerative disc very unadaptable. Fantastic! No point in praying for it, I guess we gotta come up with regenerative process to heal up fissures and shock absorbers.