@@beefsteax Sir, if you don’t do your sets of fahve stale jokes, you won’t accumulate the necessary stress for your brain to adapt and come up with better jokes.
Mark is the Dave Ramsay of training. Youre gonna get stronger and bigger following his really simple advice. Its not optimal after awhile, but he'll keep saying it is. But im super grateful for him nonetheless
Exactly, he's casting a wide net and helping a lot of the, well, starters. That said, one could do worse than being a SS disciple of the Four Lifts And Nothing Else Ever. The reason it is a good approach is the same reason Dave Ramsay is helping a lot of people. There are just a lot of ignorant people out there who can benefit. Me included!
Starting strength was the first principles foundation of me getting in shape. I knew ultimately the main reason I was unhealthy was because I was under muscled and weak. Am I still on the linear progression? No. I got my strength up to a baseline that I was satisfied with. Rip would probably tell me I need to get bigger and keep adding weight to the bar, but frankly the amount of food I’d have to consume and time I’d have to dedicate to keep making gains doesn’t fit my lifestyle. I’d rather maintain the strength I have, do other physical activities that interest me ( and which I’m more capable of now due to my strength gains) and eat a regular amount of food. But still, Starting Strength was the best workout program I’ve ever been on and I’d recommend it to anyone.
I am an old man, 72 years old, and have been lifting for seven and a half years. Somewhere along the way, your strength gains are going to plateau, as mine have. I worked in the 5 rep range for a good while. It became problematic on a few lifts. The overhead press was making my shoulders sore. Squatting and deadlifting became mentally daunting when you are more or less at your strength potential. My ceiling was I could do 3 sets of 5 reps with 305# squatting to good depth. With 315#, I might get 5 on the first set, but certainly only 4 in a second or third set. I dreaded leg day. A few things helped. I ditched a straight bar for a trap bar for deadlifting. I have not tweaked my back now in 4 years or so. Also for every lift, I work most often in 7-9 range for reps. When I can do 9 reps on any exercise, more weight goes on the bar. Leg day is still a hard day, but it is less taxing mentally. The closer you work to your one rep max, the more likely something is going to bite you. I guess it depends how much you enjoy rehabbing an injury.
@@matthewporter1287 Thank you. Since I posted this, I've toyed around with a set of 8 or 9, followed by a set of 3 with more weight, and a single if so inclined. Weightlifting has been a wonderful substitute for playing various sports that aren't really an option anymore.
I'm not a Rippetoe disciple or whatever, but some of you guys are missing the point here. Rip isn't saying "Never do anymore than 5." There are plenty of videos out there with him doing and teaching sets of 12. Rip is not against assistance exercises either and teaches them aplenty. People hear him in videos like this and think he is saying "do nothing but squat, deadlift, bench and overheads at sets of 5's forever and nothing else." That's not what he's saying. Context. 5's do work though. I switched from 10's-20's down to 5's and am making good progress where I was plateaued. That's just for strength though. Body building and other work for lean mass are entirely different workout styles/programs and not what Rip works for. You need a different program for that. Don't confuse his strength program with a bodybuilding program. "Big" here means just that. Not definition, just overall size.
I disagree with him on the 20 rep squat program. I have done it several times over my long association in lifting and each time it has delivered the goods. Dan John's Mass made simple program has you sqautting for 50 reps in some workouts and it has worked well for tons of American football players for gaining mass while keeping them relatively lean
My personal, lived experience is a mix of "high volume", say 5 sets of anything from 5-8 reps, and "high intensity,", say 3 sets of anything from 2-5 reps, where the weight is tuned such that the last rep of the last set is close to failure, is useful. In the Starting Strength parlance I am somewhere between a novice and an intermediate. Maybe an early-stage intermediate (after about 18 months of lifting). If I alternate between high volume and high intensity from session to session or week to week, I make better progress than if I just train 5's. I think three (or four or five, whatever) sets of 5's make a lot of when you are starting out. But by the time you're six months in, some volume work will help keep you from getting stuck. Or, at least it helped me personally.
Agreed. Wasted a lot of time in my 20’s following bs magazine workouts. Switched to full body 5 reps and all of a sudden I built not l only muscle but strength.
Rip doesn’t think higher reps are useful on the main lifts, but I’d argue that if you slow down your progress, you make greater strength and muscle gains in the long term and allow your connective tissues time to adapt to new loads. I did the program, and beat the shit out of my body in the process. I’d recommend to a late novice, Do 3x5 with 225 on the bench today, next time add a rep. Do 2x5, 1x6, then add another rep next time, 1x5, 2x6, then 3x6, then 2x6, 1x7. Keep going up until 3x10, if you don’t hit failure, bump the weight up to 230 next time and start back at 3x5. It will feel light and your work capacity has gone up. You can keep the same weight on the bar for a month, build more muscle and then reset at a higher load. Why rush the process? Got to get to advanced ASAP or something? Why not throw in some laterals after OHP or cable flys after Bench? Take a set to failure, rest a few seconds, go to failure again, rest, go again. It literally takes 2 minutes and you’re working the muscle through a different movement pattern. You progress the reps when you can’t progress the weight. I’m not saying don’t do the program, but stretching it out and filling in the gaps with isolations is smart. Once you’ve done 3x5 for a couple months, the repeated bout effect kicks in and you don’t even feel anything in the muscle anymore. Soreness goes away. The only thing I get from 3x5 anymore is fatigue. I’ve gotten up to 225 3x5 OHP, 315 Bench, 405 Squat, 455 Deadlift, at 5’5, 225 lb bodyweight at 47 years old, before you call me a “pussy” and say I didn’t do the program. Even keeping a top set of 5 and doing back off sets of 6-8, 8-10 at 90 and 80% of your set of 5 is sure to cause muscle growth, while maintains base strength.
it is bullcrap bro try to do only 5 rep sets for 2 years and you will se how fast your progress stop and you will be left with two options to add more weight to the bar 1 steroids 2 go up to 400 lbs weight and become 35% body fat
@@MEAT-BASED-VEGAN That’s literally what I mean, 3x5 for a couple years and you hit a wall where progress is incredibly slow and you’re so strong that getting anything out of other exercises is futile, you just cause more and more damage. Where is the room for improvement? What good does going higher in weights do when you’re already stronger than you even need for daily life, and all you do is risk injury from repetitive use?
@Iudex Gundyr I have my own gym at home, and even so, microloading doesn’t do much when you hit high loads. You’re just exponentially stressing recovery. That’s why these guys do a lift every other week when they get advanced and old. It beats you up, and progress is minimal. You could be just a little under fed, under slept, over stressed, and poundages you moved easily last week won’t go today. It’s better to find your natural limit, then start doing back offs at lower percentages, alternate movements, do hack squats or high bar for a while and build those up. Do Bench Press at a 20 degree incline, Seated Anterior Delt Press instead of OHP, to take stabilization out of it. Pull Sumo or do RDL. Give your body a rest from the big 4 and come back fresh if you want. Maintain a solid top set. At your best, you can hold onto strength and build muscle, and prevent injuries by switching up movements.
I would add that several powerlifters who switched to bodybuilding and seemingly made “gains” by doing higher rep “hypertrophy work” are on incredible amounts of PEDs and can tolerate / respond / use the novelty impact of the higher reps. And they are still lifting very heavy. Remember Ronnie doing 12-15 reps of bench press with 200 lb dumbbells? Rip is dead on balls accurate here ESPECIALLY if you are natural.
Not really. Fives worked great when I was natty. Fives still work great now that I’m enhanced. Sets of 8-15 also worked great when I was natty. They work great now, too. As long as the effort is there, the consistency is there, and the diet and sleep is on point, you’ll get the results, period. There’s no magic bio-hack about fives that’s better for natties because “reasons”
Best thing I have purchased recently is the fractional load plates..if I’m stuck I add 1/2 lb per work out till I get my next five..works great on ohp and bench.
Started with 5x5, added 95lbs to my bench, 125lbs to my squat, 175lbs to my deadlift and 45lbs to my press. I’ve since started going to 3x5 instead of 5x5. I find that doing 5sets made me lift lighter than when doing 3sets of 5.
5x5 will give your more mass than 3x5 which,if done correctly will give you're pure strength instead and will also beat your up more and fatigue will accumulate faster.
@startingstrength would it be possible to make a long clip or podcast going more into detail of Rip's training and progression before the SS coaching/training method began to be developed. Really interested to hear more on this if possible . Thanks 🙏
Sets of 5’s vs sets of 10’s very very interesting. I love the quality of sound btw. Every video sounds so crisp and clear. This was a very informative video and I’m looking forward to implementing it. Also 2:40 is so true. Sets of 20 are psychological 😂 Thank you for 3:23 such a gem 💎
“Know why you can’t, because it’s hard” classic explanation of why his program is superior… it’s easier. Mark, I know this from experience: if you only work with sets of five (assuming close to failure) you’re going to be injured sooner or later, especially if you’re older. There are three ways to stress a muscle: add weight, add reps or slow down the movement. While I agree that sets of 20 are far from optimal to gain strength and mass, I’d argue that sets of 8-12 will accomplish both for most people with less risk of injury. Just my two cents
Renaissance Periodization acknowledges the effectiveness of 5x5s and the like but also acknowledges that a period of deload is necessary to avoid injury. During this time, one can enjoy some higher rep hypertrophy fun for a few weeks before going back to another long stretch of sets of 5. It’s fun and effective in my experience and by the time you go back to sets of 5, you may even be stronger than before your deload once you ramp back up.
RP actually advocate for the opposite in their physique template. They have you do 10-12 80% of the time and other stuff much less. I lost muscle on their program! I’m sick of science dogma. Actually, the real science is out there, but it’s too simple. 4-6 reps build muscle fibers which is necessary to add sarcoplasm in the 10-12 rep range. Think that’s not true? Israetel would argue against me. But it seems to be what is actually happening in the real world and in studies that focus on the structural change in muscle.
@@1729krish that’s great. Just didn’t work for me. But I got to benching 405 for 4 reps. 6’2” 234 lbs at 13% body fat. Without RP. Once I did RP, everything got worse.
@@kode739 good question. I’d say worse For both. RP tends to stay mainly in The 10-12 rep range for everything. I don’t have all the answers and people can debate. But I think low reps stimulate more myofibrilar hypertrophy and high Reps, more sarcoplasmic. Mike israetel just did a video on this saying he doesn’t believe it. But….. the fact remains, 5 to 15 reps together lead to better gains than just 10-12. Wether it’s sarcoplasmic vs myofibrilar, Idk. But the fact remains
Stronger by science did a great article on this. 5s are roughly as good as 10s for hypertrophy. The problem with 5s for hypertrophy is that getting as many sets close to or at failure with 5's (as opposed to 10's) will beat up your joints and accumulate a fuck tonne more fatigue. The "hypertrophy range" is less to do with the hypertrophic value of an individual set and more to do with your ability to effectively accumulate sets. Also 10s arent really much worse at producing strength adaptions than 5s but they are obviously gonna induce other muscle adaptions instead. Adding muscle is about training close to or at failure. This causes adaptation to that stimulus in the form of additional muscle mass. That's it
The man with the 185 pound deadlift can definitely just add weight with sets of five for a long time. But the man with a 400 pound deadlift will likely get to a 500 pound deadlift quicker by periodising his training. Hypertrophy for the back with higher reps, then increase the weight and do sets of, say, 5. Linear progression is excellent for beginners, hence, "Starting Strength" But once you're no longer a beginner, you should no longer use beginner techniques.
My personal experience is basically this. I have been training a total of 6 months now. The last three months have been purely based upon this method Rip is talking about. When I started the starting strength program, my squat was previously on 120kg max 3 reps on the smith machine. I now train on 190kg back squat. I started on 110kg bench, now on 130kg (too slow, but getting there). I never touched deadlift before this program and now do 200kg. The three months before that of doing more focused training did not come near to the results I am getting now. My weight went up from 108kg to 119kg, measured yesterday. And all this out of only three main exercises 3 times a week.
@@OMAR-vk9pi That's true, but the SS linear progression is one of not the best beginner program for strength and size. Too many beginners go to the gym and do bodybuilding lifts and waste their newbeiness on fluff. Yes, they will get progress, but nothing like SS type of program. Drive the big lifts at 3x5 until you can't anymore. You'll blow in strength and size by almost everyone doing something else at your same starting point. Yes that phase is short, But you'll be way ahead of everyone that didn't do that.
I like sets of 5 for some compound movements, but do higher reps for smaller movements or exercises that I have a hard time maintaining form on. Mainly do 5 rep sets for incline and weighted chins.
I did a bro split for 6 months with barely any progress. I switched to SS. Body weight went up 15 pounds in 3 months, doubled all my lifts. I look and feel strong. I’m sore after every workout, that’s how I know it works. Also, I now enjoy lifting because my goal is strength. I’m pumped when I complete my sets. Where as when I was focussed on building muscle, you aren’t seeing progress instantly.
@@Cormac-jd2kx It depends on the person, training intensity, and even genetics. If you’re genetically gifted, you’ll grow faster than the other contestant, on average. Rip’s Starting Strength program works because it’s simple and easy to do. Bro splits can be a little annoying and hard for complete newbies.
@@Ceannadachi think his philosophy and method is excellent. Thing is he is so misunderstood 😂 I trained Russian methods with Russian coaches and theyr so far from the split gym bro bodybuilding systems
Ripp I’d love to come to your gym sometime and do a in person interview if that is something your open to. You’ve been beyond influential in how I train myself and clients.
As someone who has also done a 20-rep-per-set squat program (with front squats, specifically), I will say a couple things: 1. It put stretch marks on my quads (upper quads, specifically) within six weeks; the muscle growth was stunning. The weights were not enough to produce any real effect on my mid-back, however. 2. As Rip astutely pointed out, it is ultimately a psychological exercise. The weight gets harder to tolerate, but there is a conspicuous lack of grind. Furthermore, exactly as Rip said, I got through six weeks - on the nose - and then I found myself hesitating to get myself back into the garage and lift. I got seriously mentally blocked out of nowhere. Changing my program to something more reasonable cured this instantly. While I linearly progressed the front squats by five pounds per week and added 30lbs to the front squats... 3. It has absolutely miserable translation into moving heavier weight at lower (and more realistic) rep ranges. I would go as far as saying as it was outright damaging to my strength at the 85%RM capacity, and I am returning to both front and back squats at weights lower than before the 20-rep program overall. While I never regret any training that I do - as long as it doesn't result in outright injury - I experienced poor strength carryover from 20-rep squatting, and muscle size gains that I would have likely achieved through 85%RM training eventually anyways, but I would have at least come away stronger from training fahvers.
6:08 Sets of 12 are not heavy enough to make you stronger, and if you’re not getting stronger your muscles are not getting bigger. *Muscles don’t just get bigger because you did a bunch of reps - muscles get bigger because they have to adapt to the stress of your training.* 5’s produce the kind of stress that cause muscles to grow much better than sets of 12.
If you get stronger at sets of 12 you will also get bigger, getting bigger isn't just tied to getting stronger at sets of 5. Muscles get bigger when they are exposed to mechanical tension, meaning, when they get taken to failure or close to it. The current scientific consensus is that everything from 5 to 30 reps works, as long as its intense and progressive overload is occurring.
@@andrep2263 I was quoting him verbatim as a note, Btw. I do agree and have been reading a lot to the contrary of Mark's 5x5 theory. Low rep count in the 4-7 rep range seems to be most popular for athletes and power lifters trying to build pure strength, whereas the 8-12 rep range is best for hypertrophy or muscle growth. Anything in 13-20+ reps is ideal for muscular endurance or conditioning, but I'd say it's much less efficient or ideal for muscular growth.
I think its now widely accepted that doing reps within 2-3 rir (reps in reserve) will produce decent results going anywhere from 8 - 18 reps or higher, doesnt have to be fives ! But of course its good to mix things up and do some low heavy rep stuff now and again, of course im only speaking for the average gym guy
Weight training is all about how quickly your body adapts to the movements. You need to switch rep ranges and exercise variations with compound movements every 3-6 months depending on how fast you plateau. Listen to your body and take time off from heavy lifting every once in awhile.
"Sets of twelve are not heavy enough to make you stronger, and if you're not getting stronger, your muscles are not getting bigger". I somewhat agree with the first part, even though science and practical experience shows that you are in fact getting stronger doing for example sets of twelve, just to a lesser degree. The second part is also somewhat correct. But you make it sound like fives more effectively builds muscle volume than twelves, which science has proven incorrect in numerous studies. Furthermore practical experience shows this too, ask any at least semi-serious bodybuilder, or anyone who has experimented with both rep ranges. The curve of strength gain very seldom perfectly mimics the curve of hypertrophy. Sure fives will give you both, but in order to stimulate optimal hypertrophy (size) you would have to do many, many more sets, which will take a lot of extra time, and will have a much less than optimal stimulus-to-fatigue-ratio.
SS is great for beginners, however the statements here are not supported by the literature. There is nothing magical about sets of 5 for hypertrophy, and lower weight but higher reps lead to the same amount of muscular growth.
Yes, especially as age moves on. Deloading helps, but also a lighter variant day of the same lifts. Bill Starr wrote a good article about descending intensity in Iron Man magazine.
@@divinecomedian2 Yes it strenghtens them, but tendons and joints heal slower then muscles. That's one reason it's good with a deload week every 4-6 week.
I do two sets per exercise. The first set is a set of 10 reps and the second set will be 15 to 20 but I'm 49. Sets of five are really hard on my joints. When I do set of 10 my joints don't hurt. All of my lifts are going up with sets of 10
As a 40 plus years lifter with a Masters Degree in Exercise Physiology I can you tell 2 things. Mark and his guys are 100% correct and These labs and their “research” are so poorly designed and executed that you cannot take them seriously.
I would say that doing sets of 8-10 can be good if you want to build both muscle and strength, and if you don't want to exhaust your nervous system and tear down your joints and tendons. Sets of fives are more optimal for strenght though.
There’s true to what’s being said here but to claim a person can’t increase strengh and muscle size doing 3 sets of 10 or 3 sets of 8 is just not true . I know because I did it .
@@justincrossley1913 I just think it would be interesting. I like and respect both of them. Personally I think there's more than one way to skin a cat.
@@justincrossley1913 Tom is awesome and clearly what he did worked, however there are plenty of champions including people who beat him at bodybuilding who did not train that way.
Tom did high volume workouts but only a couple times per week...total. He wasn't working out 4 or 5 days a week. He was also on gear. You can find a vid of Tom telling you exactly what he used. He wouldn't have been a fraction of the size as a natural.
But what kind of muscle? The repeated bout effect kicks in pretty quick after you make some initial adaptations. After that, the myocytic androgen receptor drives strength gains (it controls the strength but not mass of limb muscles). Add the constant wait gain he wants you to do and you are literally an accustomed lifter only driving sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. This perpetual 5 by 5 model is no different than a factory worker eating a bunch of food and lifting boxes around a factory.
If you can do tehn, you can do eleven or twehlve and possibly even tehwenty but if you can do sihx on your sets of fahves, your not putting enough weight on the bar. Also, shit starts to look real fucky when your concentration dissolves with higher reps, so if you are truely pushing it, you're probably doing more ugly reps. This is negotiable ofcourse, but for practical purposes fahves are better.
Its worth following his advice for your first 6months of training, but after that you should move on to more astute people. At some point you will need to modulate volume intensity and frequency in order to continue growing both bigger and stronger. Also if that 20s program had been waved it would lead to gains in strength that would be evident at lower rep ranges. Lastly, most people dont have a goal of getting stronger for the sake of getting stronger. They desire strength and muscle mass as a means to accomplish there penultimate goals. Training is subservient.
Singles build strengh better than fives because fives are not heavy enough. If you really want strengh like powerlifters, train like bulgarians. Every day only max singles with low volume. Even bodybuilders do not do fives. Who does fives? Maybe beginners.
I don't think singles are an good idea for most people, unless you want to compete at a pro level. The risk of injury will increase a lot if you're doing sets of singles instead of fives.
When I did sets of 15 on squats my legs were much, much bigger. Now I only do low reps and my legs are half that size. Strength and size are not the same thing. At all.
@@sunnibird On gear, an average person can not come close to Jay Cutler, even after years of training. You would be surprised by how many at the gym who are taking gear and not even look like they train.
Maybe I’m not understanding this correctly or maybe I haven’t quite got the context, but you imply that sets of 8-12 (or 20) don’t grow muscle as optimally as sets of 5? I challenge this, because virtually all top body builders work in the 8-12 to even 20 rep range? Can you please clarify?
Maybe, but most if not all (naturally or not) bodybuilders work in that rep range, or at least say that they work in that rep range. Can’t all be on gear right?
@@siblue37 if that were the case then geared power lifters would also look like body builders ( if the 5 rep range was the most optimal) - but as it is, they don’t. Thanks Rookie
Rip is preaching to novice lifters. Intensity only gets you so far before you have to focus more on volume Make sure you're eating enough and sleeping enough
Generally I agree that 8-12 reps you have to lift lighter and you run into a lactic acid clearance problem. At 5 reps you can move a lot more weight. But, you do have to lift enough sets. So for me 3 x 10 X 185 and 5 x 6 x 200. Is the same 30 reps. But the total poundage you lift is more.
@@jabberwock14 Body weight. By just hitting the very basic lifts for very heavy weights I added about 40lb to me. That was working up to a 315 bench, 400 squat, 500lb deadlift (I know but I'm really tall and can't squat for shit). At those weights the 5/5 without any accessory exercises added a lot muscle. I am 6'5". So I went from pretty thin to semi jacked.
Granted this is a generalization and that SS only work out with a barbell. I found the conjugate method being excellent for myself and it worked a hell of a lot better than the novice progression cause I tried that too. Now I'm a pretty lean 185 pound, 5'8, and my squat is at 405+, bench at 295 and deadlift at 455 (my back's always been week due to a crushed L5 disc). I always do at least one of the big compound exercises and then I complement this with accessory exercises (higher volume, not fahves) such as curls, good mornings, power cleans, chin ups/pull ups, tricep extensions, ab work etc. Works great. I'm 35 and I work weird times as well so my sleep is not what it should be. Still, I'm quite satisfied with my numbers although I'm gonna drive em up a bit more if I can.
I just started this program and love it! I’ve been trying to do bodybuilding upper/lower split programming for a couple of months now and got no where. Maybe a little bit of increase in size but no real strength gains. I originally started with 5x5 stronglifts program and quit it for the upper/lower split because I wasn’t seeing progress. I have recently realized that at the time I wasn’t eating enough calories or protein. I’m 22, 6”1, and 206 lbs right now
Well you can't really blame a program if you weren't eating right. Come on Dwight you're better than that. You can't get big on beets alone. Time to slaughter another goat.
If this is true then why do bodybuilders only do high reps? I myself stick to 5's but I still wonder why giant body builders only use light weight for high reps
I mean Mike O Hearn and Stan Eferding are repping monster weights. I think things change when you're at that level. For us average schmucks, heavy weights and 5s seem to be the sweet spot.
The low weight/high rep template obviously works for hypertrophy, and there is many decades of evidence, and the direct experience of hundreds of serious bodybuilders, to back it up. I still think 5x5 is best for the general population, and athletes with different goals, but if you want maximum muscle, listen to the guys who work out that way.
After you've built a good strength base, building real muscle requires volume. You're not going to get sufficient volume from heavy, low rep training. The bulk of your program needs to be volume based to really force muscle growth. A lot of people want to deny this but some of the strongest benchers have under developed pecs for example. Check out the periodization training from Mike israetel
Hey Rip, have you ever seen the X3 guy's TEDx talk he gave in a high school? Maybe have one of your producers watch it for you, I don't want you to have an aneurysm :D. But I'd love to get your one or two sentence reply to it sometime.
What if he gets his deadlift working weight up from 185 to 315? Asking for myself. I tell you hwat, I get bloodshot eyes when I lift is what. But yeah, my skinny noodle back has some actual flesh on it for the first time, which is kind of cool. That was a great point about hypertrophy vs strength. I've always been baffled by the idea that there is a distinction, at least any kind of important one. Who's out there saying, "yeah, I want lots of useless beef on me." If this proves to be incorrect thinking, so be it, but it's appealing to my brain.
I can't argue with mark. I learn a lot from him. But while getting heavier and lifting more weights in gym exercises lasting seconds makes you explosively stronger. But if your five foot nine eating like a pig. You can't play soccer with your kids. Your just heavy. You can pull and press heavy bit you can't run around
Nowadays everything out there is so confusing. I read that lifting heavy (regardless of rep range) will only help you grow if you are only eating in a surplus. Can someone on a 5x5 eat in a deficit and still get stronger/build muscle and achieve a body recomp?
Overweight beginners can cut and build at the same time. The surplus energy from stored fat will be used. When it's used up eating a surplus becomes necessary.
I'm not as educated on weight lifting but it sounds like he's saying if I bench 225 i'll get stronger in sets of 5 than I would with sets of 10. That doesnt sound right but i'll try it. It seems logically that the more you push on heavy weight the stronger you'll get. But again i'm not as educated. I'm still at the beginning of my journey.
If you bench 225 for a set of 10, then you bench more than 225 for a set of 5. The difference is that the set of 5 will use more weight and thus provide a greater stimulus.
grinding last rep in set of five is toally different event than grinding it in set of 15… because in first event you grind all of your fibers from low to high threshold motor units and all types of fibers bcos everything has to work hard coz weight is heavy… if you grind your 15threp you only grind whats left… your biggest fibers already run out of fuel(creatine phosphate), and your smaller one that are able to run on glucose hit in… but they dont have the ability to move such weight. so you grind. on smaller fibers. great.. and you grow through growing your glycogen supplies aka sarcoplasmic size aka fluid.. once more if you want real size and str you have to grind in the number of reps that will allow you to grind in max 20sec time in set… if you already grind 15 sec into set (4th rep?) you have ensured that you are grinding in time that every muscle fiber from smallest one to biggest one are still in the job and did not run out of fuel… and since fuel is available for them but the body recognize that inability to move the weight body has no other option than get stronger.. get it? now go and do your sets of 4-6 reps… because its not about reps… its about time in what the grinding reps kick in.. if you understand energetic systems in body you understand why it is about time.. and what rep ranges allow you to grind/fail around 15-20sec into set why the biggest fibers are still “firing???” sets of 4-6reps
This is the problem with SS they make blanket statements that just aren’t true. 8’s and 10’s can serve a purpose in a program, especially for certain levels of trainees. Should you do them with novice beginners? No. But 8’s and 10’s do have a purpose, you can’t just do 1-5 reps forever. Juggernaut training, Ed Coan, Doug Furnas, Dan Green all use higher reps in training, all are stronger than anyone at any starting strength gym. I guarantee it. And yeah there is shit research out there but there are also a lot of people doing good work. To say all research is meaningless is just a lazy, tired take.
Rip I normally agree with you on most things but you're wrong this time. If I lift 120 pounds for 12 repe and next month I put 130 for 12 repetitions. Have I not increased my strength by 10 pounds? Therefore how can you say that sets in rep ranges higher Than 5 don't build strength they may not be as optimal for strength but they still build strength just like sets of Five may create hypertrophy but are not optimal
The problem is you stall out much more quickly doing sets of ten, which don't fully stimulate the CNS or the fast twitch fibers. My bench press stalled out around 335 for over 5 years. Then I started doing singles and it crept up again and I put over 100 more pounds on it in time. The gymbros would have told me I was done and going on gear was the only way to make more progress.
@@brianmcg321 No he won't. He will progress according to the weight he can move for 8 reps. By dropping to five he will simply move a heavier weight and progress that. Though for lifts like bench and OHP the heavier the weight the smaller the load progressions become over time. So you either lower your reps or your weight stays the same. Everything works for a while, this is why it makes sense to change things periodically.
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Sir, you misspelled “Fahves”
@@beefsteax Sir, if you don’t do your sets of fahve stale jokes, you won’t accumulate the necessary stress for your brain to adapt and come up with better jokes.
I thought it was funny
@@beefsteaxyou don't know how long people have been watching. Joke if still new to someone all the time.
@@beefsteaxsounds like you're on TH-cam and reddit too often lol
Facts 😂😂😂😂😂
Mark is the Dave Ramsay of training. Youre gonna get stronger and bigger following his really simple advice. Its not optimal after awhile, but he'll keep saying it is. But im super grateful for him nonetheless
Exactly, he's casting a wide net and helping a lot of the, well, starters. That said, one could do worse than being a SS disciple of the Four Lifts And Nothing Else Ever. The reason it is a good approach is the same reason Dave Ramsay is helping a lot of people. There are just a lot of ignorant people out there who can benefit. Me included!
Man, that's a great analogy. Very true.
he doesnt say do 5's into infinity, if you read his books you'd know that
Starting strength was the first principles foundation of me getting in shape. I knew ultimately the main reason I was unhealthy was because I was under muscled and weak.
Am I still on the linear progression? No. I got my strength up to a baseline that I was satisfied with. Rip would probably tell me I need to get bigger and keep adding weight to the bar, but frankly the amount of food I’d have to consume and time I’d have to dedicate to keep making gains doesn’t fit my lifestyle. I’d rather maintain the strength I have, do other physical activities that interest me ( and which I’m more capable of now due to my strength gains) and eat a regular amount of food.
But still, Starting Strength was the best workout program I’ve ever been on and I’d recommend it to anyone.
Don’t ever put Mark in the same camp as Dave. Mark knows what he’s talking about
That's why I only do singles, because 5s don't have the ability to cause you to produce as much force as singles.
You should try half reps. Twice the force production of singles.
Lol
funny stuff
@@CoryFalde175 Ahahahaa!
Yeah why don’t we do singles on starting strength by that logic!?
I am an old man, 72 years old, and have been lifting for seven and a half years. Somewhere along the way, your strength gains are going to plateau, as mine have. I worked in the 5 rep range for a good while. It became problematic on a few lifts. The overhead press was making my shoulders sore. Squatting and deadlifting became mentally daunting when you are more or less at your strength potential. My ceiling was I could do 3 sets of 5 reps with 305# squatting to good depth. With 315#, I might get 5 on the first set, but certainly only 4 in a second or third set. I dreaded leg day.
A few things helped. I ditched a straight bar for a trap bar for deadlifting. I have not tweaked my back now in 4 years or so. Also for every lift, I work most often in 7-9 range for reps. When I can do 9 reps on any exercise, more weight goes on the bar. Leg day is still a hard day, but it is less taxing mentally.
The closer you work to your one rep max, the more likely something is going to bite you. I guess it depends how much you enjoy rehabbing an injury.
@@matthewporter1287 Thank you. Since I posted this, I've toyed around with a set of 8 or 9, followed by a set of 3 with more weight, and a single if so inclined. Weightlifting has been a wonderful substitute for playing various sports that aren't really an option anymore.
@@406dn7 the fact that you're 72 and consistently lifting weights is very inspiring
I can relate.
This is what I needed to hear.
There is a difference in programming for a novice vs intermediate vs advanced lifter. This is all covered in the programming book.
@@johng375Too bad that's not the discussion in this post.
Me doing fives on sit ups and lateral raises
If you can overhead press 300 pounds for fahhhve you don’t need lateral raises -ripp
what do you think is happening to your side delts when youre overhead pressing 400? nothing??
@@sfkingalpha This is irony, right?
Right, side delts are fully relaxed in a heavy overhead press.
You’re not that dumb, right?
@@ByronTexas OHP is pretty good for the side deltoids. I program OHP and lateral raises for mine.
I'm not a Rippetoe disciple or whatever, but some of you guys are missing the point here. Rip isn't saying "Never do anymore than 5." There are plenty of videos out there with him doing and teaching sets of 12. Rip is not against assistance exercises either and teaches them aplenty. People hear him in videos like this and think he is saying "do nothing but squat, deadlift, bench and overheads at sets of 5's forever and nothing else." That's not what he's saying. Context.
5's do work though. I switched from 10's-20's down to 5's and am making good progress where I was plateaued. That's just for strength though. Body building and other work for lean mass are entirely different workout styles/programs and not what Rip works for. You need a different program for that. Don't confuse his strength program with a bodybuilding program. "Big" here means just that. Not definition, just overall size.
People are just too dumb to comprehend
Definition is diet
I disagree with him on the 20 rep squat program. I have done it several times over my long association in lifting and each time it has delivered the goods. Dan John's Mass made simple program has you sqautting for 50 reps in some workouts and it has worked well for tons of American football players for gaining mass while keeping them relatively lean
My personal, lived experience is a mix of "high volume", say 5 sets of anything from 5-8 reps, and "high intensity,", say 3 sets of anything from 2-5 reps, where the weight is tuned such that the last rep of the last set is close to failure, is useful. In the Starting Strength parlance I am somewhere between a novice and an intermediate. Maybe an early-stage intermediate (after about 18 months of lifting). If I alternate between high volume and high intensity from session to session or week to week, I make better progress than if I just train 5's. I think three (or four or five, whatever) sets of 5's make a lot of when you are starting out. But by the time you're six months in, some volume work will help keep you from getting stuck. Or, at least it helped me personally.
Lived experience
The photo of Bre taped to the chair had me rolling.
Agreed. Wasted a lot of time in my 20’s following bs magazine workouts. Switched to full body 5 reps and all of a sudden I built not l only muscle but strength.
God you’re slow
Rip doesn’t think higher reps are useful on the main lifts, but I’d argue that if you slow down your progress, you make greater strength and muscle gains in the long term and allow your connective tissues time to adapt to new loads. I did the program, and beat the shit out of my body in the process. I’d recommend to a late novice, Do 3x5 with 225 on the bench today, next time add a rep. Do 2x5, 1x6, then add another rep next time, 1x5, 2x6, then 3x6, then 2x6, 1x7. Keep going up until 3x10, if you don’t hit failure, bump the weight up to 230 next time and start back at 3x5. It will feel light and your work capacity has gone up. You can keep the same weight on the bar for a month, build more muscle and then reset at a higher load. Why rush the process? Got to get to advanced ASAP or something? Why not throw in some laterals after OHP or cable flys after Bench? Take a set to failure, rest a few seconds, go to failure again, rest, go again. It literally takes 2 minutes and you’re working the muscle through a different movement pattern. You progress the reps when you can’t progress the weight. I’m not saying don’t do the program, but stretching it out and filling in the gaps with isolations is smart. Once you’ve done 3x5 for a couple months, the repeated bout effect kicks in and you don’t even feel anything in the muscle anymore. Soreness goes away. The only thing I get from 3x5 anymore is fatigue. I’ve gotten up to 225 3x5 OHP, 315 Bench, 405 Squat, 455 Deadlift, at 5’5, 225 lb bodyweight at 47 years old, before you call me a “pussy” and say I didn’t do the program. Even keeping a top set of 5 and doing back off sets of 6-8, 8-10 at 90 and 80% of your set of 5 is sure to cause muscle growth, while maintains base strength.
it is bullcrap bro try to do only 5 rep sets for 2 years and you will se how fast your progress stop
and you will be left with two options to add more weight to the bar
1 steroids
2 go up to 400 lbs weight and become 35% body fat
@@MEAT-BASED-VEGAN That’s literally what I mean, 3x5 for a couple years and you hit a wall where progress is incredibly slow and you’re so strong that getting anything out of other exercises is futile, you just cause more and more damage. Where is the room for improvement? What good does going higher in weights do when you’re already stronger than you even need for daily life, and all you do is risk injury from repetitive use?
@@DARTH-KTULU 5 reps set will work 90 days if you eat good and train hard no more
You do realize that they don't do 3x5 and add 5 lbs forever? They microload? They do different programming changes?
@Iudex Gundyr I have my own gym at home, and even so, microloading doesn’t do much when you hit high loads. You’re just exponentially stressing recovery. That’s why these guys do a lift every other week when they get advanced and old. It beats you up, and progress is minimal. You could be just a little under fed, under slept, over stressed, and poundages you moved easily last week won’t go today. It’s better to find your natural limit, then start doing back offs at lower percentages, alternate movements, do hack squats or high bar for a while and build those up. Do Bench Press at a 20 degree incline, Seated Anterior Delt Press instead of OHP, to take stabilization out of it. Pull Sumo or do RDL. Give your body a rest from the big 4 and come back fresh if you want. Maintain a solid top set. At your best, you can hold onto strength and build muscle, and prevent injuries by switching up movements.
I would add that several powerlifters who switched to bodybuilding and seemingly made “gains” by doing higher rep “hypertrophy work” are on incredible amounts of PEDs and can tolerate / respond / use the novelty impact of the higher reps. And they are still lifting very heavy. Remember Ronnie doing 12-15 reps of bench press with 200 lb dumbbells? Rip is dead on balls accurate here ESPECIALLY if you are natural.
Not really. Fives worked great when I was natty. Fives still work great now that I’m enhanced. Sets of 8-15 also worked great when I was natty. They work great now, too. As long as the effort is there, the consistency is there, and the diet and sleep is on point, you’ll get the results, period. There’s no magic bio-hack about fives that’s better for natties because “reasons”
Best thing I have purchased recently is the fractional load plates..if I’m stuck I add 1/2 lb per work out till I get my next five..works great on ohp and bench.
Yes I also use 1/2lb plates on OHP also but I'm going to get there on it no matter how long it takes
As someone who started with sets of 10 reps .... And went nowhere, this is so true. I saw.the light but wasted months.
Im happy to have found this channel. I listen to my favorite over and over sometimes..good motivation.
after a year,how do you feel training like this?
Started with 5x5, added 95lbs to my bench, 125lbs to my squat, 175lbs to my deadlift and 45lbs to my press. I’ve since started going to 3x5 instead of 5x5. I find that doing 5sets made me lift lighter than when doing 3sets of 5.
5x5 will give your more mass than 3x5 which,if done correctly will give you're pure strength instead and will also beat your up more and fatigue will accumulate faster.
@@elcapitanianholy bro science
@startingstrength would it be possible to make a long clip or podcast going more into detail of Rip's training and progression before the SS coaching/training method began to be developed. Really interested to hear more on this if possible . Thanks 🙏
Sets of 5’s vs sets of 10’s very very interesting. I love the quality of sound btw. Every video sounds so crisp and clear. This was a very informative video and I’m looking forward to implementing it.
Also 2:40 is so true. Sets of 20 are psychological 😂
Thank you for 3:23 such a gem 💎
“Know why you can’t, because it’s hard” classic explanation of why his program is superior… it’s easier. Mark, I know this from experience: if you only work with sets of five (assuming close to failure) you’re going to be injured sooner or later, especially if you’re older.
There are three ways to stress a muscle: add weight, add reps or slow down the movement. While I agree that sets of 20 are far from optimal to gain strength and mass, I’d argue that sets of 8-12 will accomplish both for most people with less risk of injury. Just my two cents
You won't get injured if you're doing a manageable weight
Renaissance Periodization acknowledges the effectiveness of 5x5s and the like but also acknowledges that a period of deload is necessary to avoid injury. During this time, one can enjoy some higher rep hypertrophy fun for a few weeks before going back to another long stretch of sets of 5. It’s fun and effective in my experience and by the time you go back to sets of 5, you may even be stronger than before your deload once you ramp back up.
RP actually advocate for the opposite in their physique template. They have you do 10-12 80% of the time and other stuff much less. I lost muscle on their program! I’m sick of science dogma. Actually, the real science is out there, but it’s too simple. 4-6 reps build muscle fibers which is necessary to add sarcoplasm in the 10-12 rep range. Think that’s not true? Israetel would argue against me. But it seems to be what is actually happening in the real world and in studies that focus on the structural change in muscle.
@@thunderkat5282 I had the best gains I ever had on the RP program. But the insane volume is hard to do unless one is advanced
@@1729krish that’s great. Just didn’t work for me. But I got to benching 405 for 4 reps. 6’2” 234 lbs at 13% body fat. Without RP. Once I did RP, everything got worse.
@@thunderkat5282 worse as in? You training for strength or for hypertrophy?
@@kode739 good question. I’d say worse
For both. RP tends to stay mainly in
The 10-12 rep range for everything. I don’t have all the answers and people can debate. But I think low reps stimulate more myofibrilar hypertrophy and high
Reps, more sarcoplasmic. Mike israetel just did a video on this saying he doesn’t believe it. But….. the fact remains, 5 to 15 reps together lead to better gains than just 10-12. Wether it’s sarcoplasmic vs myofibrilar, Idk. But the fact remains
I bought 8 half pound plates to help me continue sets of 5. One pound at a time. Best $20 I've spent in some time.
I bought a set of 1.5 lbs when I hit a plateau on bench. Got on the other side of the plateau with those. Money well spent.
Baseball bat doughnuts are great for microloading as well. They vary in weight. I have the 1 pounders
6:15 don’t muscles have to adapt to sets of 8-12 as well? What does that adaptation look like?
Stronger by science did a great article on this. 5s are roughly as good as 10s for hypertrophy. The problem with 5s for hypertrophy is that getting as many sets close to or at failure with 5's (as opposed to 10's) will beat up your joints and accumulate a fuck tonne more fatigue. The "hypertrophy range" is less to do with the hypertrophic value of an individual set and more to do with your ability to effectively accumulate sets. Also 10s arent really much worse at producing strength adaptions than 5s but they are obviously gonna induce other muscle adaptions instead. Adding muscle is about training close to or at failure. This causes adaptation to that stimulus in the form of additional muscle mass. That's it
The man with the 185 pound deadlift can definitely just add weight with sets of five for a long time. But the man with a 400 pound deadlift will likely get to a 500 pound deadlift quicker by periodising his training. Hypertrophy for the back with higher reps, then increase the weight and do sets of, say, 5. Linear progression is excellent for beginners, hence, "Starting Strength" But once you're no longer a beginner, you should no longer use beginner techniques.
Duh. That’s why programs change and you don’t keep doing one called “Starting Strength”
I went from 300 to 600 linearly.
Thanks Mark this just proves why your program and stronglifts work so well
They’re ok
You have a buyer plan, please post it here.
My personal experience is basically this. I have been training a total of 6 months now. The last three months have been purely based upon this method Rip is talking about. When I started the starting strength program, my squat was previously on 120kg max 3 reps on the smith machine. I now train on 190kg back squat. I started on 110kg bench, now on 130kg (too slow, but getting there). I never touched deadlift before this program and now do 200kg. The three months before that of doing more focused training did not come near to the results I am getting now. My weight went up from 108kg to 119kg, measured yesterday.
And all this out of only three main exercises 3 times a week.
Dude everything works when you’ve only been training 6 months lmao
@@OMAR-vk9pi Hahaha true right!
@@OMAR-vk9pi That's true, but the SS linear progression is one of not the best beginner program for strength and size. Too many beginners go to the gym and do bodybuilding lifts and waste their newbeiness on fluff. Yes, they will get progress, but nothing like SS type of program. Drive the big lifts at 3x5 until you can't anymore. You'll blow in strength and size by almost everyone doing something else at your same starting point. Yes that phase is short, But you'll be way ahead of everyone that didn't do that.
Always love the way Mark explains!
He does a great job of explaining pseudoscience. Too bad it's not actually science.
Please post your actual science.
@@muscledoggs566Bro reads Brad Shoenfelds studies and calls himself a science based lifer
I like sets of 5 for some compound movements, but do higher reps for smaller movements or exercises that I have a hard time maintaining form on. Mainly do 5 rep sets for incline and weighted chins.
I did a bro split for 6 months with barely any progress.
I switched to SS. Body weight went up 15 pounds in 3 months, doubled all my lifts. I look and feel strong. I’m sore after every workout, that’s how I know it works.
Also, I now enjoy lifting because my goal is strength. I’m pumped when I complete my sets. Where as when I was focussed on building muscle, you aren’t seeing progress instantly.
I know guys that did SS and powerlifting all their life and changed to a push pull Leg gym bro routine and grew like hell 😂
So…..
@@Cormac-jd2kx It depends on the person, training intensity, and even genetics. If you’re genetically gifted, you’ll grow faster than the other contestant, on average. Rip’s Starting Strength program works because it’s simple and easy to do. Bro splits can be a little annoying and hard for complete newbies.
@@Ceannadachi think his philosophy and method is excellent. Thing is he is so misunderstood 😂
I trained Russian methods with Russian coaches and theyr so far from the split gym bro bodybuilding systems
Currently reading Ripp's book "mean old Mr gravity", and i'm laughing.my.ass.off. It's so good, gotta love the pink ones humor....
Ripp I’d love to come to your gym sometime and do a in person interview if that is something your open to. You’ve been beyond influential in how I train myself and clients.
As someone who has also done a 20-rep-per-set squat program (with front squats, specifically), I will say a couple things:
1. It put stretch marks on my quads (upper quads, specifically) within six weeks; the muscle growth was stunning. The weights were not enough to produce any real effect on my mid-back, however.
2. As Rip astutely pointed out, it is ultimately a psychological exercise. The weight gets harder to tolerate, but there is a conspicuous lack of grind. Furthermore, exactly as Rip said, I got through six weeks - on the nose - and then I found myself hesitating to get myself back into the garage and lift. I got seriously mentally blocked out of nowhere. Changing my program to something more reasonable cured this instantly. While I linearly progressed the front squats by five pounds per week and added 30lbs to the front squats...
3. It has absolutely miserable translation into moving heavier weight at lower (and more realistic) rep ranges. I would go as far as saying as it was outright damaging to my strength at the 85%RM capacity, and I am returning to both front and back squats at weights lower than before the 20-rep program overall.
While I never regret any training that I do - as long as it doesn't result in outright injury - I experienced poor strength carryover from 20-rep squatting, and muscle size gains that I would have likely achieved through 85%RM training eventually anyways, but I would have at least come away stronger from training fahvers.
6:08 Sets of 12 are not heavy enough to make you stronger, and if you’re not getting stronger your muscles are not getting bigger. *Muscles don’t just get bigger because you did a bunch of reps - muscles get bigger because they have to adapt to the stress of your training.* 5’s produce the kind of stress that cause muscles to grow much better than sets of 12.
Loving it.
If you get stronger at sets of 12 you will also get bigger, getting bigger isn't just tied to getting stronger at sets of 5. Muscles get bigger when they are exposed to mechanical tension, meaning, when they get taken to failure or close to it. The current scientific consensus is that everything from 5 to 30 reps works, as long as its intense and progressive overload is occurring.
@@andrep2263 I was quoting him verbatim as a note, Btw. I do agree and have been reading a lot to the contrary of Mark's 5x5 theory. Low rep count in the 4-7 rep range seems to be most popular for athletes and power lifters trying to build pure strength, whereas the 8-12 rep range is best for hypertrophy or muscle growth.
Anything in 13-20+ reps is ideal for muscular endurance or conditioning, but I'd say it's much less efficient or ideal for muscular growth.
Then why do bodybuilders use higher reps?
@@snorman1911because mark is full of crap 😂
I think its now widely accepted that doing reps within 2-3 rir (reps in reserve) will produce decent results going anywhere from 8 - 18 reps or higher, doesnt have to be fives ! But of course its good to mix things up and do some low heavy rep stuff now and again, of course im only speaking for the average gym guy
HE SAID “FIVES” 🎉
Weight training is all about how quickly your body adapts to the movements. You need to switch rep ranges and exercise variations with compound movements every 3-6 months depending on how fast you plateau. Listen to your body and take time off from heavy lifting every once in awhile.
"Sets of twelve are not heavy enough to make you stronger, and if you're not getting stronger, your muscles are not getting bigger". I somewhat agree with the first part, even though science and practical experience shows that you are in fact getting stronger doing for example sets of twelve, just to a lesser degree.
The second part is also somewhat correct. But you make it sound like fives more effectively builds muscle volume than twelves, which science has proven incorrect in numerous studies. Furthermore practical experience shows this too, ask any at least semi-serious bodybuilder, or anyone who has experimented with both rep ranges. The curve of strength gain very seldom perfectly mimics the curve of hypertrophy. Sure fives will give you both, but in order to stimulate optimal hypertrophy (size) you would have to do many, many more sets, which will take a lot of extra time, and will have a much less than optimal stimulus-to-fatigue-ratio.
The real question is… Do sets of sixes work as well as sets of fives?
I’ve been doing sets of sixes and have gotten stronger. A lot.
4-6 Reps is the ideal range.
SS is great for beginners, however the statements here are not supported by the literature. There is nothing magical about sets of 5 for hypertrophy, and lower weight but higher reps lead to the same amount of muscular growth.
I like sets of 5 because i cant count passed that 🤪.
And if you can't count, imagine concentrating on your technique for any longer!
Take your shoes off.
Isn’t constantly lifting heavy hard on your tendons and joints?
This is what I keep worrying about tbh. Got messed up knees squatting heavy three days a week.
It’s not constantly. It’s less than 15 sets a week for the movements. It’s a lot less stress than any bro split.
Yes, especially as age moves on. Deloading helps, but also a lighter variant day of the same lifts. Bill Starr wrote a good article about descending intensity in Iron Man magazine.
No, it strengthens them. They'll progress along with your muscles.
@@divinecomedian2 Yes it strenghtens them, but tendons and joints heal slower then muscles. That's one reason it's good with a deload week every 4-6 week.
Is this applicable to all weight training workouts? Or only for compound lifts?
Well said, thanks for the info
I do two sets per exercise. The first set is a set of 10 reps and the second set will be 15 to 20 but I'm 49. Sets of five are really hard on my joints. When I do set of 10 my joints don't hurt. All of my lifts are going up with sets of 10
Ok, he just convinced me that I have to buy his book.
What about the 1-3 rep range?
As a 40 plus years lifter with a Masters Degree in Exercise Physiology I can you tell 2 things. Mark and his guys are 100% correct and These labs and their “research” are so poorly designed and executed that you cannot take them seriously.
Is this sarcastic? If not could you help this dumdum with an example or so
I would say that doing sets of 8-10 can be good if you want to build both muscle and strength, and if you don't want to exhaust your nervous system and tear down your joints and tendons. Sets of fives are more optimal for strenght though.
There’s true to what’s being said here but to claim a person can’t increase strengh and muscle size doing 3 sets of 10 or 3 sets of 8 is just not true . I know because I did it .
He's not saying that. He's saying that's not optimal.
Excellent info! As always.
I want to see Rip have a conversation about this with Tom Platz
First Tom Platz is a genetic freak of genetic freaks 2 he’s on peds and 3 he trains hard but RIp is talking about regular everyday people 5x5 is fine
@@justincrossley1913 I just think it would be interesting. I like and respect both of them. Personally I think there's more than one way to skin a cat.
back in the day, Tom Platz used to need up to two weeks off after training thighs! Go ahead and let that sink in, ridiculous
@@justincrossley1913
Tom is awesome and clearly what he did worked, however there are plenty of champions including people who beat him at bodybuilding who did not train that way.
Tom did high volume workouts but only a couple times per week...total. He wasn't working out 4 or 5 days a week. He was also on gear. You can find a vid of Tom telling you exactly what he used. He wouldn't have been a fraction of the size as a natural.
Staying with Fives will snap some shit up in no time.
But what kind of muscle? The repeated bout effect kicks in pretty quick after you make some initial adaptations.
After that, the myocytic androgen receptor drives strength gains (it controls the strength but not mass of limb muscles).
Add the constant wait gain he wants you to do and you are literally an accustomed lifter only driving sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.
This perpetual 5 by 5 model is no different than a factory worker eating a bunch of food and lifting boxes around a factory.
I’m incorporating single leg squats. I’m sold on reps of five. My question is should I use low bar or high bar?
Follow this man's advice if you want to look like him and his clients
Does the NLP if starting in your early 40s end quicker compared to if you started when younger?
Try it both ways and find out
Yes.
They advocate 8-12 reps for the assistance lifts though
I want that pic of Bre, autographed
Damnit!! Be me to it!!
Optimal Bros are freaking out right now.
Alright enough! I'll do 5's!
Im a fan of sets of 5, but im also a fan of sets of 8-12. Both work. Its not even negotiable at this point.
I think he would distinguish between the big lifts and accessory lifts, where he sometimes recommends more reps. In that case definitely.
1-5 builds strength which will lead to muscle but 8-12 builds muscle but only strength for higher reparations
If you can do tehn, you can do eleven or twehlve and possibly even tehwenty but if you can do sihx on your sets of fahves, your not putting enough weight on the bar. Also, shit starts to look real fucky when your concentration dissolves with higher reps, so if you are truely pushing it, you're probably doing more ugly reps. This is negotiable ofcourse, but for practical purposes fahves are better.
Yup jay cutler always says he works around 8 -12
Most people don't know that the SS on rips shirt doesn't stand for starting strength
why is there a photo of bre on the chair?
Its worth following his advice for your first 6months of training, but after that you should move on to more astute people.
At some point you will need to modulate volume intensity and frequency in order to continue growing both bigger and stronger.
Also if that 20s program had been waved it would lead to gains in strength that would be evident at lower rep ranges.
Lastly, most people dont have a goal of getting stronger for the sake of getting stronger. They desire strength and muscle mass as a means to accomplish there penultimate goals. Training is subservient.
His program progresses. There’s a reason the book is called “Starting Strength”, and not “Strength Forever”
Singles build strengh better than fives because fives are not heavy enough. If you really want strengh like powerlifters, train like bulgarians. Every day only max singles with low volume.
Even bodybuilders do not do fives. Who does fives? Maybe beginners.
I don't think singles are an good idea for most people, unless you want to compete at a pro level. The risk of injury will increase a lot if you're doing sets of singles instead of fives.
Stan Efferding and Ed Coan are among the many strength athletes who disagree with Rip on the value of hypertrophy training.
Great information. They're are podcasters on TH-cam saying you have to do 20-50 reps in order to grow and get strong. What you say makes more sense.
Ignore this at your own risk of keeping your six-pack just for looks rather than being actually, you know…not puny and weak.
When I did sets of 15 on squats my legs were much, much bigger. Now I only do low reps and my legs are half that size. Strength and size are not the same thing. At all.
Imagine the puzzled look of Jay Cutler building his whole career on sets of 8-12 reps 😄
If you want to get on the gear Jay was taking it's not a problem. Natural lifters cannot train like that.
@@sunnibird naturals can't use 8-12 reps to get muscle?
@@sunnibird On gear, an average person can not come close to Jay Cutler, even after years of training. You would be surprised by how many at the gym who are taking gear and not even look like they train.
Maybe I’m not understanding this correctly or maybe I haven’t quite got the context, but you imply that sets of 8-12 (or 20) don’t grow muscle as optimally as sets of 5?
I challenge this, because virtually all top body builders work in the 8-12 to even 20 rep range? Can you please clarify?
Gear?
It’s called steroids rookie 😮
Maybe, but most if not all (naturally or not) bodybuilders work in that rep range, or at least say that they work in that rep range. Can’t all be on gear right?
@@siblue37 if that were the case then geared power lifters would also look like body builders ( if the 5 rep range was the most optimal) - but as it is, they don’t. Thanks Rookie
5s are also safer because you won't lose tension
Rippetoe once beat Chuck Norris in a fist fight. The '79 tornado gave Rip a wide berth.
*Fahves* build muscle even better than Fives.
Via this logic you should only do one rep maxes because one 1rm 550lbs > 500lbs deadlift
What about tens for a intermediate? I have hit a plateau with 5s
Rip is preaching to novice lifters. Intensity only gets you so far before you have to focus more on volume
Make sure you're eating enough and sleeping enough
@@james3876 McDonalds 💯
When you say fives, do you mean 5 sets or 5 reps?
Generally I agree that 8-12 reps you have to lift lighter and you run into a lactic acid clearance problem. At 5 reps you can move a lot more weight. But, you do have to lift enough sets. So for me 3 x 10 X 185 and 5 x 6 x 200. Is the same 30 reps. But the total poundage you lift is more.
And the fact is, neither one of those is enough to make you bigger
@@jabberwock14 Um, if you life enough weight it does. Went from 210-250 over 2 years with this.
@@redties-ug6ls 210-250 in your DL weight? Or bodyweight?
@@redties-ug6ls if it took you 2 years to increase your DL from 210-250 you were making retard level mistakes.
@@jabberwock14 Body weight. By just hitting the very basic lifts for very heavy weights I added about 40lb to me. That was working up to a 315 bench, 400 squat, 500lb deadlift (I know but I'm really tall and can't squat for shit). At those weights the 5/5 without any accessory exercises added a lot muscle. I am 6'5". So I went from pretty thin to semi jacked.
Granted this is a generalization and that SS only work out with a barbell. I found the conjugate method being excellent for myself and it worked a hell of a lot better than the novice progression cause I tried that too. Now I'm a pretty lean 185 pound, 5'8, and my squat is at 405+, bench at 295 and deadlift at 455 (my back's always been week due to a crushed L5 disc). I always do at least one of the big compound exercises and then I complement this with accessory exercises (higher volume, not fahves) such as curls, good mornings, power cleans, chin ups/pull ups, tricep extensions, ab work etc. Works great. I'm 35 and I work weird times as well so my sleep is not what it should be. Still, I'm quite satisfied with my numbers although I'm gonna drive em up a bit more if I can.
@@TheGlizzardOfKovnice try. I was a complete novice when i started the program.
I do 1-5.Depending on how I feel.
What about cbum with a max squat of 405?
I just started this program and love it! I’ve been trying to do bodybuilding upper/lower split programming for a couple of months now and got no where. Maybe a little bit of increase in size but no real strength gains. I originally started with 5x5 stronglifts program and quit it for the upper/lower split because I wasn’t seeing progress. I have recently realized that at the time I wasn’t eating enough calories or protein. I’m 22, 6”1, and 206 lbs right now
Well you can't really blame a program if you weren't eating right. Come on Dwight you're better than that. You can't get big on beets alone. Time to slaughter another goat.
If this is true then why do bodybuilders only do high reps? I myself stick to 5's but I still wonder why giant body builders only use light weight for high reps
I mean Mike O Hearn and Stan Eferding are repping monster weights. I think things change when you're at that level. For us average schmucks, heavy weights and 5s seem to be the sweet spot.
The low weight/high rep template obviously works for hypertrophy, and there is many decades of evidence, and the direct experience of hundreds of serious bodybuilders, to back it up.
I still think 5x5 is best for the general population, and athletes with different goals, but if you want maximum muscle, listen to the guys who work out that way.
After you've built a good strength base, building real muscle requires volume. You're not going to get sufficient volume from heavy, low rep training. The bulk of your program needs to be volume based to really force muscle growth. A lot of people want to deny this but some of the strongest benchers have under developed pecs for example. Check out the periodization training from Mike israetel
@@cdcaleo if you want maximum muscle do steroids and quit your job so you can just eat, train, and sleep all day.
Cause they’re on steroids…you can do anything and you’ll be able to build muscles.
Well, if that's the case, why not threes? Something like 8 sets of 3. Basically the same number of reps. 6 sets of 4. What's so magical about 5?
Hey Rip, have you ever seen the X3 guy's TEDx talk he gave in a high school? Maybe have one of your producers watch it for you, I don't want you to have an aneurysm :D. But I'd love to get your one or two sentence reply to it sometime.
What if he gets his deadlift working weight up from 185 to 315? Asking for myself. I tell you hwat, I get bloodshot eyes when I lift is what. But yeah, my skinny noodle back has some actual flesh on it for the first time, which is kind of cool.
That was a great point about hypertrophy vs strength. I've always been baffled by the idea that there is a distinction, at least any kind of important one. Who's out there saying, "yeah, I want lots of useless beef on me."
If this proves to be incorrect thinking, so be it, but it's appealing to my brain.
LOL that picture of Bre
This echoes Ronnie Coleman's, "Everybody wanna be a bodybuilder, but nobody wanna lift these heavy ass weights!" 😂
I can't argue with mark. I learn a lot from him. But while getting heavier and lifting more weights in gym exercises lasting seconds makes you explosively stronger. But if your five foot nine eating like a pig. You can't play soccer with your kids. Your just heavy. You can pull and press heavy bit you can't run around
Nowadays everything out there is so confusing. I read that lifting heavy (regardless of rep range) will only help you grow if you are only eating in a surplus. Can someone on a 5x5 eat in a deficit and still get stronger/build muscle and achieve a body recomp?
And when the 5s stop working, what next?
Overweight beginners can cut and build at the same time. The surplus energy from stored fat will be used. When it's used up eating a surplus becomes necessary.
That’s true of any lifting.
" If a 60's yr wanna be lifter, does 5x5. Will he still see results?"
REG PARK 5x5 just 9 exercises....old school
So u keep doing 5 for ever?
No
I'm not as educated on weight lifting but it sounds like he's saying if I bench 225 i'll get stronger in sets of 5 than I would with sets of 10. That doesnt sound right but i'll try it. It seems logically that the more you push on heavy weight the stronger you'll get. But again i'm not as educated. I'm still at the beginning of my journey.
If you bench 225 for a set of 10, then you bench more than 225 for a set of 5. The difference is that the set of 5 will use more weight and thus provide a greater stimulus.
No. That isn’t what he said at all. Read the book.
@@brianmcg321 Ok. I'm recently getting familiar with Rippetoe. I didnt know there was a book. Thanks for telling me.
grinding last rep in set of five is toally different event than grinding it in set of 15… because in first event you grind all of your fibers from low to high threshold motor units and all types of fibers bcos everything has to work hard coz weight is heavy… if you grind your 15threp you only grind whats left… your biggest fibers already run out of fuel(creatine phosphate), and your smaller one that are able to run on glucose hit in… but they dont have the ability to move such weight. so you grind. on smaller fibers. great.. and you grow through growing your glycogen supplies aka sarcoplasmic size aka fluid.. once more if you want real size and str you have to grind in the number of reps that will allow you to grind in max 20sec time in set… if you already grind 15 sec into set (4th rep?) you have ensured that you are grinding in time that every muscle fiber from smallest one to biggest one are still in the job and did not run out of fuel… and since fuel is available for them but the body recognize that inability to move the weight body has no other option than get stronger.. get it? now go and do your sets of 4-6 reps… because its not about reps… its about time in what the grinding reps kick in.. if you understand energetic systems in body you understand why it is about time.. and what rep ranges allow you to grind/fail around 15-20sec into set why the biggest fibers are still “firing???” sets of 4-6reps
This is the problem with SS they make blanket statements that just aren’t true. 8’s and 10’s can serve a purpose in a program, especially for certain levels of trainees. Should you do them with novice beginners? No. But 8’s and 10’s do have a purpose, you can’t just do 1-5 reps forever. Juggernaut training, Ed Coan, Doug Furnas, Dan Green all use higher reps in training, all are stronger than anyone at any starting strength gym. I guarantee it. And yeah there is shit research out there but there are also a lot of people doing good work. To say all research is meaningless is just a lazy, tired take.
All those guys were on gear... so there's that little factor
Muscles definitely get bigger even though you dont increase maximal strength. Just look at cyclists, they have thighs bigger than powerlifters.
Those are “track” cyclists and they’re on tons of ped’s
Are these 5 sets of 5 reps?
The Starting Strength routine is 3X5, not counting the warm up sets.
Rip I normally agree with you on most things but you're wrong this time. If I lift 120 pounds for 12 repe and next month I put 130 for 12 repetitions. Have I not increased my strength by 10 pounds? Therefore how can you say that sets in rep ranges higher Than 5 don't build strength they may not be as optimal for strength but they still build strength just like sets of Five may create hypertrophy but are not optimal
You were probably able to lift 130 for 12 initially but what increased was work capacity rather than strength??
Serious inquiry.
The problem is you stall out much more quickly doing sets of ten, which don't fully stimulate the CNS or the fast twitch fibers. My bench press stalled out around 335 for over 5 years. Then I started doing singles and it crept up again and I put over 100 more pounds on it in time. The gymbros would have told me I was done and going on gear was the only way to make more progress.
Next month? Your supposed to be adding five pounds per workout. That won’t last long with reps of 12.
I got five on it🎶
But if I do sets of 8 and add 5lbs per workout, aren't I getting stronger?
Not for long. You will quickly have to reduce your reps to five.
@@brianmcg321 and then to three?
@@brianmcg321 No he won't. He will progress according to the weight he can move for 8 reps. By dropping to five he will simply move a heavier weight and progress that. Though for lifts like bench and OHP the heavier the weight the smaller the load progressions become over time. So you either lower your reps or your weight stays the same. Everything works for a while, this is why it makes sense to change things periodically.
"Regardless of what has been common sense in training science for years, I'll just repeat my opinion a hundred times; enough people will believe it...
This is what Clarence Kennedy does, sets of 5s. Talks about it in one of the Japan videos.
Yes, he trains a lot of olympic lifts and they always do lower reps. He was doing 500lb + squats before going enhanced.