The problem isn’t killing the Air Force. The problem is having a composition that can deal with air while having the capability of assaulting a base. Containing air is also a big problem, infantry can win but they can never hope to pursue.
The reason mass air is so op is because 1) it's really fast and can thirst basses easily, and 2) avoiding leader powers is braindead easy compared to most ground units, and 3) it's cheap and easy to just double pump air.
Honestly it’s really expensive to double pump banshees. Most deci just expect easy kills but if you space out your wolves to protect them from the glassing beam and protect your bases it’s super easy to handle. Retraining a full army of banshees takes a while too and is expensive as all. Not mention forge and Isabel vehicle assembly makes ground dirt cheap. Honestly the only thing you’re right about is speed. Ground units need just a bit of a speed buff. With that honestly air would be way more balanced. Honestly wraiths will melt your base so fast especially after the Scorch mortar buff.
Someone: Goes all air. Us: Okay, one of us need to go all anti-air and keep that AA army close to one of our because it's useless against most other things and leader powers. Someone: Sees AA army, flies away unharmed. Someones 2 Team-mates: Show up and destory basically 1 and 1/2 half armies. Someone: Flies air in to level the non-AA army and destory all the bases.
This test isn't really accurate, nobody who masses banshees is gonna just run them into your army. They are gonna dart around the map in mass avoiding your army while taking every mini base and expansion they can and then they will constantly hit your bases and run away from your army. Air is OP not based on stats it's because if microd properly there's no real sure way to deal with it. You kinda have to catch the banshees mid rotation and hope you do alot of damage in the few seconds you can or hope they mess up and you can LP them to death or something. No other type of unit in the game requires the same amount of effort to play around so to sit there and say it's balanced after doing some wack test like this is just ignorant
Well honestly if you have Isabel or forge wolves are super cheap with them and you pair some nightengales with tanks and you’ll be fine to handle any mass air army. The only annoying thing is the units move so slow if you don’t have one person defending your main base you’re kinda dead
Vultures can be easily balanced if they do two things to vulture missiles, 1 have shrouds be able to destroy the missiles and 2 missiles lose tracking when targets get stealthed
What about hornets though? They have been shown to be more powerful than banshees especially when they have nightingales mixed in Also I feel like a lot of has to do with air mobility and how hard it is to keep up if the enemy air jumps from one base to another
Yes but banshees third tech upgrade can destroy a whole pop of air iv seen many times third tech banshees destroy hornets and nightingales especially if those banshees also have boundless siphon and boundless fury (if you read the description of the third tech upgrade it basically says it's to destroy air so it makes banshees anti air at the same time) also not to mention you can focus on a single units and either way the banshees can run away so quickly and if it's in a 3v3 or 2v2 the other teammate can also spam deci banshees or go hunters to counter the wolverines but honestly vultures are the more op one its because of their y ability if they can actually get it off they can destroy a whole base a wolverines or reavers if used correctly or just to destroy a air army almost completely
@@alexreyes7237 that's not inconsistent with what he said. Banshees are anti-air, so they win the head to head. They also win the same matchups that the Hornets do, the hornets just do slightly better in every non air matchup.
@@danydady6851 no they don’t win head to head plasma torpedo is anti air the only difference between wingman and plasma torpedo is that wingmen rockets hit ground units too
@@alexreyes7237 there have been videos that show banshees vs hornets. In these videos, hornets tended to win until banshees were upgraded to plasma torpedoes. Even after the hornets were upgraded to wingman, banshees still won. Don't expect banshees to beat hornets as bad as marines or reavers do, but they still check hornets.
What about covenant vs banshees? Also the OP part about the all air is that if you push with your army then on a lot of maps air just flies across a chasm or somewhere vehicles and infantry cant cross and it just demolishes your base, if you leaves some behind to defend the base then you're not attacking with enough to win an engagement. And then there is the while econoic aspect to it where banshees only cost resources and counter units much more so
Indeed! I'm planning on having a follow up video for Banished vs Banshees to address that exact concern :) The speed is a problem too. While HW1 banshees had boost, every UNSC leader had Pelican to quickly move around Wolverines. Not the case in HW2 unfortunately :(
Going to add on to that on hw1 banshees didn't have as much base damage as they do in hw2 making it so much easier to hit a base then run and to compound on that in a 3v3 if one player on the enemy team goes air its a threat to all players due to it being way to easy for your army to be out of place and the result is you getting backdoored by a Kevin this all goes x4 for decimus banshses as they get the passives for damage and speed
I agree sir, the mobility of banshees (banshi if you will) is where they're so deadly, too many times I've had my army and one of my bases and a full pop air yolt my secondary before I can even move my reavers there and once i get there my base is destroyed and the air leave before I wipe them
Combat tech marines are my favourite unit in game,they are cheap,low pop and are the most versatile unit as they can effectively kill infantry,vehicles and air.I love spamming combat tech marines and bunkers as sgt jhonson.
Air is kind of OP because of their speed. They also ignore most or all obstacles of the map. They fly trough walls, holes, ramps etc. Thanks to that, they can run from danger, save a friend, poke enemies until they are out of resources. They are sheep as well. Marines kills air, but Marines can’t chase them for long distances. That is my opinion.
Here’s a few points to make though, what if there was a scorpion or two or three in that army to deal with ground, because that’s a realistic army, when you’re prepared for air, if you’re specially countering it, but if you’ve made a relatively balanced army against a banished player, slap him and he says “time to dump my supplies on banshees” and because of those speed and cost, they can run up on you and run you over. It is also significantly easier to dodge leader powers with air units than ground units. (Also wolverines and reavers shouldn’t be as expensive as they are, because again, they’re good if you’re prepared to be air swarmed but they’re terrible when you need to adapt)
"Realistic army for anti air" what are you gonna do, March your marines and wolverines to their base and die to a level three cleansing beam. You didn't even cover hornets either.
Ya The Problem Isn't The Army Vs Army It's That They Just Run To Your Base. See In An Actual Game They'll See Your Army And Just Go To Your Base Instead
This wasn't really an accurate test because no one is gonna build this army to counter, plus in a 2v2 or 3v3, the teammates just distract while an entire air army flies by an kills your base and by the time you get back to your base to save it, it's destroyed because they move way too, fast
What makes air so good is its speed, UNSC can counter it better with wolverines because they can keep up for the most part, but the banished suffer because reavers are so slow
Atriox Banshees are scarier than Decimus. That Bulwark alone gives them all the time they need to eliminate even a near full population of level 3 Wolverines.
This is not a great test to determine if mass banshee or hornet is op. Most players won't even engage your army and just swoop around map destroying your bases while you try to chase them down.
Very interesting video! Didn't expect that banshees would suck so bad against marines. I mean, yes infantry beats air.. but this? Even Deci's banshees. Good job! Would be also nice to see how you defend a base or two, having only marines + wolverines. Speed is a major key for air
Air is not OP because of their damage or strength, they are OP because of their mobility, if you go attack a secondary with tanks, marines, maruders or any ground unit and a bunch of banshees/hornets attack your main, unless you have hogs or wolves, by the time you get to your base it would either be destroyed or badly damaged then they can run away to you secondary then you have to go there, then when you get to your secondary they go back to your main and finish it off which is really annoying, similar to the mantis pelican push except that has a cooldown and it only works on one base and also has a timer but air can do that irritating tactic all day long.
Well the thing is destroying an army of vultures is easy with a lot of anti air but no matter how fast can you destroy it, they’ve already destroyed your base with special ability wich leaves you with your anti air army and one less base, on the other your enemy has no army but has more bases to pump whatever he wants
Yeah okay, what if the army of banshees just head to your base instead of fighting those marines? there are counter to air, sure, but only if air choose to engage. if they don't, especially on that map, you're fucked. you'll build tons of anti air to chase them which cost a ton of power. And then what? go destroy their base with wolves and reavers? not a chance. that's before taking into account that the enemy can just go full vehicle/infantries at any point. then what's your anti air gonna do? rub their liver holes on them?
This is not a good representation. A good air player on 3s (where people say its op) will never come face to face with your army. They will circle around it and kill your base. As deci i could 1v2 on ashes against all AA for this simple fact. You cant catch them.
But the marines get destroyed by leader powers so in a real fight where the unsc dose not have very good leader powers against banshees but in a real match one would just glassing beam all the marines
Or you could just split up your marines instead of letting the glassing beam kill them all. Honestly I could make the same arguement about air if I drop a emp Mac blast on air they are dead they can’t even move and the marines would have a easy time killing them. Honestly just split up your units instead of letting them get murder by one beam
Colony with banshee and skitter mix actually has the three mixes of green on the board with good Infantry, vehicle, and air dps from the banshees because combat repair with the skitters give alot of boost.
counter unit beats unit it counters! im not sure anyone would argue air can beat an army composing of stuff designed to shut it down. The issue would be simply the air can simply not engage that army. With its mobility it can basically hit and run you to death unless you manage to lock it down with leader powers, once your army gets close, fly off and hit another area and just keep you chasing. Granted this depends on map and strat, a full turtle isnt gonna really care about air mobility because your army is all in one small area but otherwise its a lot of chasing and losing bits here and there.
banshees have trouble breaking through shileded banished bases with towers that have missiles.. UNSC air is FAR nastier though as they have heavy air units. Oveall, i'd say that banished vs banished air's main threat is their high mobility, countered by the beating banished bases need to take before taking actual damage and reavers being highly mobile. UNSC vs UNSC though.. is far nastier, as Vultures can nuke buildings with ease and the only way the UNSC will catch up even short term is with air of their own
Pro tip: Anti Air forces may not destroy bases on the offensive. Bring a few building killers and destroy buildings. (Reavers and Wolverines need CORE units or BK's to damage buildings don't spam these expensive boys) This could potentially slow air or even draw their attention. Once the buildings are destroyed the Air units would cost them more than your own army for each one shot down. Most Anti Air can deal splash damage and AA turrets will be needed and is mandatory once attacking. (This is more successful on 2v2 3v3 scenarios)
Name one person with banshees that just sits on top of that. While yes it's a realistic army comp it's not a realistic scenario. Just think about in game man
Here’s the thing, me and my friends also tested this except instead of banshees, we used the UNSC equivalent (can’t remember the name) and they are majorly OP. Took out a full pop of marines, a full pop of wolverines. The only thing that could contend with it was the same amount of UNSC air. Banshees are still good but UNSC’s is slightly better. I recommend doing that test
The problem people have with air is the incredibly beneficial arsenal they hold. Being fast, damaging to all units and buildings, and on top of that not targetable at all by units such as hunters and scorpions, gives the impression that they just have too much firepower. Watching this video proved the point that infantry beats air, but I EXPECT that to be the case. The problem I have is the HUGE dent you could see the infantry army had after the battle. If you did full tanks vs full infantry, the tanks wouldn’t suffer a significantly large amount of losses like infantry does in this air vs infantry battle. Which is why people have a problem with it, infantry should be able to more effectively kill air, without the army left with 3 units left. Leader powers are instantly obsolete by air’s extremely fast speed, along with not being able to be stunned by ANYTHING. Turret drops, shade drops, mantis drops, ability/lp’s that could possibly temporarily halt air for a glassing beam for example to actually make their mark don’t really exist, other than serina and johnsons EMP, which then means you have to sacrifice an entire leader pick, just so you can stun some air. Along with how much damage air does to anti-air VEHICLES (air beats vehicle, therefore vehicles sustain a lot of damage from air regardless of them being anti air or not). In a counter ball army, you can micro-target the wolverines for example, and then take out the scorpions and cyclops’ that can’t even fight back. On the other hand, you can’t micro target enemy elite rangers with your full army of hunters, since the damage is so small. A similar system for anti air to receive reduced damage from air would be perfect.
Banshees only take supply to make while any type of anti air takes a decent amount of power and supply per unit. Banshees are fast and the most maneuverable unit in the game and can easily escape damage dealing leader powers unlike their anti air counterparts (bro come on one meme beam and that entire marine army is gone almost). Pairing certain leader powers with them like deci’s siphon, unbreakable, or bullwark practically guarantee a victory in a 1 on 1 engagement. You can double or even triple pump. Any sort of anti air has relatively low health. You can only really chase a banshee army with another banshee or hornet army. There are literally so many reasons why its op and you kind of ignored them all and focused on just their stats when its everything around them that complements them and make it op.... vultures are fucked tho.
Plus you have to upgrade that same anti-air which takes power. I can have level 3 banshees or hornets with all upgrades while the other team is just at level 2. Plus hit and run easy as hell.
My RTS experience is kinda limited cause until recently I've only played console RTS games but Halo Wars 2 is the only game I've played with such overwhelming air units. Even Command and Conquer 3's Scrin warships feel like they go down faster then Banshee spam.
The one problem i have against air is this in halo wars 1 all you needed was like 7-8 wolverines to kill a banshee army EVEN WITH SACRIFICE and youre probably wondering why... its because of the targeting on the wolves in halo wars one was AMAZING unlike halo wars 2 where ive seen way more times than not is 5 wolves shooting at one banshee each and then you got halo wars one with each individual wolverine shooting at a different banshee if that was the case in halo wars 2 then air wouldnt be half of the problem that it is as of right now... and dont even get me started on phoenix missiles
Air is still OP and mean look at Vultures everything die to the Y Ability besides blisterbacks and YapYap in my opinion is the only leader who can solidly count Air
Yes, you have shown that raw force alone can destroy air, but that is not what will always save you or cost you because when fighting Decimus he may glassing beam your army therefore you would lose everything and the air is so agile that it could also rush your base faster than you can move to it.
What they really need to do to balance the game is to double or triple the range of AA units. What's ridiculous is that Wolverines are basically useless unless you're right up on them, so Reavers are really the only units that work as sufficient form of AA mainly due to it's jump ability and power. This basically means that one player has to play as Banished which is annoying, why couldn't they make a unit similar to the Reaver for the UNSC such as a AA equipped Mantis?? AA turrets should have the same range as siege but only for Air, all of these feats would balance the game in my opinion but I think there is a bias for air and most people want to run air so that's not gonna happen.
This test is flawed because very few people will ever make a full pop of anti air. To do this correctly you should have a unit mix. Not to mention that if leader abilities are used before the fight it results in air having a better chance because banshees can our run a glassing beam but marines and wolverines can’t.
The units in the game air fairly balanced all except vultures. The problem is the leader powers are EXTREMELY OP. Marines are good but one glassing beam would annihilate a marine composition cause they move slow.
I think the pelicans and hornets are almost as strong because I've dealt with a few of those pelicans and a wasp of hornets and they would always have like 4 or 5 hornets left after I send my banshee army at them.
Damage and Hp is only 1 factor. Banshees are fast and annoying, you just micro them through the map and nothing can hit you. anti-air simple cant keep up with them, you just back away and let your teammate finish them or go for his base faster than he can send units there
The fact that all AA will fire on a single unit at a time when air is doing circles is also a problem. Putting AA directly below makes it actually good which is the problem.
It’s easier to deal with air if you are banished imo bc reavers are much more powerful than wolverines are. I don’t know if this is a good option or not but one way to nerf air is to make banshees/hornets cost power or make reavers/wolverines cost less power
Honestly airs damage has been already nerfed and wolves got buffed. I think what we need now is a vulture nerf and a vehicle speed buff. Air is too versatile and I think this is more of a case of why does everything but air move like snails (unless you run your favorite kinsano) buffing the speed of tanks just a bit. And buffing the speed of wolves just a bit. Honestly vultures can keep their damage and speed if they lower their health. They can be glass cannon back of the line air that can’t be kept in the front lines. Vultures with heavy metal three from forge are just broken because now they become super Tanky glassing beams, emp mac blasts, it doesn’t matter. High TEIR game sweaty guys just triple down on heavy metal and combat salvage. So even once you kill the murder army he’s got a full set again. Honestly just nerf their health to keep them as back line poke units or nerf the damage on them and buff their health to keep em as front line air like a floating tank. Right now you pass the ten minute mark and vultures just ruin any late game fun.
Banshees and Hornets shouldn't be allowed to shoot and move at the same time. Air's mobility allows too much coverage of the map as it is. Not to mention the cost only being resources
It's 2021 and air units are still overpowered. 343 did nothing about it. The reason Air units are OP is, that they are way too cheap. Why do their counterpart like wolverine and reaver costs more than air units? If you spam air units, the match is over. If you spam wolv or reaver they are literally useless to fighting a base or anything other than air units.
While I love the mythbuster series, I wonder if 1v1 unit fights might be another worthy comparison to make. The large scale combat is fun to watch and informational but we might get a better sense of per unit ability from 1v1. I know these videos are for discussion but it might interesting to see. I'll be running some of my own 1v1 tests but still pretty sure Air is more valuable then Infintary
Hi team respawn I’ve got a RELAKY cool idea to check out. Me and my friend have been running Voridus and Isabel lately when we noticed that malstrum paired with ghost in the machine can take over an entire army. I wanted to know if you could do some myth busting with the ability and if you can confirm any other cool interactions. I had turned full pop banshees to my side and assaulted bases with their own full army. Malestrum also pairs so well with so many other ability’s. I think it would make for a cool episode because I’m wondering how many units could it actually grab in one use
Eh fully upgraded air turrets and wolves with nightengales will deck anything. Honestly one person going anti and everyone else doing whatever army they want seems to hard press any army. Just keep your wolves in between the two bases so they can react fast enough to help out. I hope this helped also make sure to keep your units split up to avoid the meme beam.
Shallow Bay anders can be strong with early game and mid. Here’s why if you spam out marines and flame throwers to cap nodes and hold off early game pushes her leader with rpg is strong but also the fact rnd reduces cost of upgrades you can get grenade throw really quick and cheap and then get combat tech once you hit tech level two really fast too. After that mix it in mainly air and few kodiaks with the sentinel ability to call in little aggressors EVERYTIme a rocket hits a target and you can do really really good with her. She kinda gets weak in the late game. With the current state of match making SHES solid in singles and duos. She kinda just doesn’t have the leader powers to late game when stronger units come on the field.
Shallow Bay I hope this helped if ground like reavers are giving your problems have your kodiaks focus down anti air which will bolster your airs chance of survival!
It's because of how badly balanced the air combat in Halo wars 2 is why I've stopped playing it, you could have the best anti air army ever but you'll still loose cuz you can't catch up to their army to kill them, I haven't played this game in months, and I probably won't play anything other than custom games cuz skirmish is a joke compared to the first Halo wars and I doubt 343 will do anything to fix the air issue
Here's a tip always have anti air in your army no matter what because even if the enemy has no hostile air they might still have engineers or nightingales
Recuerdo que cuando salió halo wars 2 los wolwerines estaban muy nerfeados y era mejor sacar a los marines como antiaéreos veo que ahora hacen lo que deberían hacer
It’s so boring having games where it’s constantly air air air ! Your base goes in seconds ! UNSC anti-air is a joke .... no mater how much anti-air you don’t stand a chance , cowards combo banshees and vulture , where’s the Battles the mix nah just go for that easy win with air ! Even when you fully upgrade anti air it doesn’t stand a chance , gone in seconds Every time I start a game I always prepare for an enemy air assault as 90% of the time I’m right
The problem isn’t killing the Air Force. The problem is having a composition that can deal with air while having the capability of assaulting a base. Containing air is also a big problem, infantry can win but they can never hope to pursue.
Play Jerome combat marines are op especially inside of his mastodons with some heals
@@Redrum1892 not every hero is jerome? Lol.
The problem is if you just use marines, then you already lost. One mac round or glassing beam and you lose EVERYTHING.
Not if you spread them out
@@CreeperDude-cm1wv you can manage 40 squads of marines? I bet you could save 2/3s but you still lose a lot and then theyll get railed by other stuff
What if you garrison/use Mastodons on them?
@@giantslayer9335not every hero is Jerome.
@@michaelscalese3142you’re actually stupid
The reason mass air is so op is because 1) it's really fast and can thirst basses easily, and 2) avoiding leader powers is braindead easy compared to most ground units, and 3) it's cheap and easy to just double pump air.
That and ground AI are braindead and get stuck over one another. Its not OP based on pure stats.
Honestly it’s really expensive to double pump banshees. Most deci just expect easy kills but if you space out your wolves to protect them from the glassing beam and protect your bases it’s super easy to handle. Retraining a full army of banshees takes a while too and is expensive as all. Not mention forge and Isabel vehicle assembly makes ground dirt cheap. Honestly the only thing you’re right about is speed. Ground units need just a bit of a speed buff. With that honestly air would be way more balanced. Honestly wraiths will melt your base so fast especially after the Scorch mortar buff.
@@tristenatorplaysgames6833 wtf are you talking about double pumping banshee is cheap
Someone: Goes all air.
Us: Okay, one of us need to go all anti-air and keep that AA army close to one of our because it's useless against most other things and leader powers.
Someone: Sees AA army, flies away unharmed.
Someones 2 Team-mates: Show up and destory basically 1 and 1/2 half armies.
Someone: Flies air in to level the non-AA army and destory all the bases.
Basically
Mobility is airs biggest advantage. It doesn’t have to engage an anti Air Force wile most other counters end up needing to engage
Thats why they should have added Vampires they would be such a good counter in this case
This test isn't really accurate, nobody who masses banshees is gonna just run them into your army. They are gonna dart around the map in mass avoiding your army while taking every mini base and expansion they can and then they will constantly hit your bases and run away from your army. Air is OP not based on stats it's because if microd properly there's no real sure way to deal with it. You kinda have to catch the banshees mid rotation and hope you do alot of damage in the few seconds you can or hope they mess up and you can LP them to death or something. No other type of unit in the game requires the same amount of effort to play around so to sit there and say it's balanced after doing some wack test like this is just ignorant
To make a true test of air op try this the banshees attack a base while the opponent army defends if air kills base before they are wiped air wins
Well honestly if you have Isabel or forge wolves are super cheap with them and you pair some nightengales with tanks and you’ll be fine to handle any mass air army. The only annoying thing is the units move so slow if you don’t have one person defending your main base you’re kinda dead
Tristenator plays games Mass air doesn’t rely on energy so it’s easier to upkeep and the mobility is unmatched making strafing armies very easy.
Vultures can be easily balanced if they do two things to vulture missiles, 1 have shrouds be able to destroy the missiles and 2 missiles lose tracking when targets get stealthed
vultures missiles just need to be nerfed, they should not be that good against anti air units.
What about hornets though? They have been shown to be more powerful than banshees especially when they have nightingales mixed in
Also I feel like a lot of has to do with air mobility and how hard it is to keep up if the enemy air jumps from one base to another
Yes but banshees third tech upgrade can destroy a whole pop of air iv seen many times third tech banshees destroy hornets and nightingales especially if those banshees also have boundless siphon and boundless fury (if you read the description of the third tech upgrade it basically says it's to destroy air so it makes banshees anti air at the same time) also not to mention you can focus on a single units and either way the banshees can run away so quickly and if it's in a 3v3 or 2v2 the other teammate can also spam deci banshees or go hunters to counter the wolverines but honestly vultures are the more op one its because of their y ability if they can actually get it off they can destroy a whole base a wolverines or reavers if used correctly or just to destroy a air army almost completely
turbo gamer23576 no hornets are better than banshees but deci banshees are stronger than hornets
@@alexreyes7237 that's not inconsistent with what he said. Banshees are anti-air, so they win the head to head. They also win the same matchups that the Hornets do, the hornets just do slightly better in every non air matchup.
@@danydady6851 no they don’t win head to head plasma torpedo is anti air the only difference between wingman and plasma torpedo is that wingmen rockets hit ground units too
@@alexreyes7237 there have been videos that show banshees vs hornets. In these videos, hornets tended to win until banshees were upgraded to plasma torpedoes. Even after the hornets were upgraded to wingman, banshees still won. Don't expect banshees to beat hornets as bad as marines or reavers do, but they still check hornets.
What about covenant vs banshees? Also the OP part about the all air is that if you push with your army then on a lot of maps air just flies across a chasm or somewhere vehicles and infantry cant cross and it just demolishes your base, if you leaves some behind to defend the base then you're not attacking with enough to win an engagement. And then there is the while econoic aspect to it where banshees only cost resources and counter units much more so
Indeed! I'm planning on having a follow up video for Banished vs Banshees to address that exact concern :)
The speed is a problem too. While HW1 banshees had boost, every UNSC leader had Pelican to quickly move around Wolverines. Not the case in HW2 unfortunately :(
@@TeamRespawn would have loved to see either a buff to anti air turrets for bases or a slight nerf to air vs building damage
Going to add on to that on hw1 banshees didn't have as much base damage as they do in hw2 making it so much easier to hit a base then run and to compound on that in a 3v3 if one player on the enemy team goes air its a threat to all players due to it being way to easy for your army to be out of place and the result is you getting backdoored by a Kevin this all goes x4 for decimus banshses as they get the passives for damage and speed
I agree sir, the mobility of banshees (banshi if you will) is where they're so deadly, too many times I've had my army and one of my bases and a full pop air yolt my secondary before I can even move my reavers there and once i get there my base is destroyed and the air leave before I wipe them
@@TeamRespawn if all unsc had pelicans, then the game would be balanced IMO.
Combat tech marines are my favourite unit in game,they are cheap,low pop and are the most versatile unit as they can effectively kill infantry,vehicles and air.I love spamming combat tech marines and bunkers as sgt jhonson.
The fact that he had to put in Wolverines, anti air, with marines to give the AIR a fighting chance against them
Air is kind of OP because of their speed. They also ignore most or all obstacles of the map. They fly trough walls, holes, ramps etc. Thanks to that, they can run from danger, save a friend, poke enemies until they are out of resources. They are sheep as well. Marines kills air, but Marines can’t chase them for long distances. That is my opinion.
Here’s a few points to make though, what if there was a scorpion or two or three in that army to deal with ground, because that’s a realistic army, when you’re prepared for air, if you’re specially countering it, but if you’ve made a relatively balanced army against a banished player, slap him and he says “time to dump my supplies on banshees” and because of those speed and cost, they can run up on you and run you over. It is also significantly easier to dodge leader powers with air units than ground units. (Also wolverines and reavers shouldn’t be as expensive as they are, because again, they’re good if you’re prepared to be air swarmed but they’re terrible when you need to adapt)
"Realistic army for anti air" what are you gonna do, March your marines and wolverines to their base and die to a level three cleansing beam. You didn't even cover hornets either.
Ya The Problem Isn't The Army Vs Army It's That They Just Run To Your Base. See In An Actual Game They'll See Your Army And Just Go To Your Base Instead
This wasn't really an accurate test because no one is gonna build this army to counter, plus in a 2v2 or 3v3, the teammates just distract while an entire air army flies by an kills your base and by the time you get back to your base to save it, it's destroyed because they move way too, fast
What makes air so good is its speed, UNSC can counter it better with wolverines because they can keep up for the most part, but the banished suffer because reavers are so slow
Atriox Banshees are scarier than Decimus. That Bulwark alone gives them all the time they need to eliminate even a near full population of level 3 Wolverines.
This is not a great test to determine if mass banshee or hornet is op. Most players won't even engage your army and just swoop around map destroying your bases while you try to chase them down.
Wolverines after they get their 2 or 3 third vechile upgrade are quite good but other than that reavers are better as stand alone with no upgrades.
Simple solution to not getting smacked by air, quit the game
UNSC anti-air is a joke no matter how much you have against enemy air
Nobody is building 20 marines at 40 mins 😂
Very interesting video! Didn't expect that banshees would suck so bad against marines. I mean, yes infantry beats air.. but this? Even Deci's banshees. Good job! Would be also nice to see how you defend a base or two, having only marines + wolverines. Speed is a major key for air
Cutter viable?
@@tristenatorplaysgames6833 good point. Would be interesting to see Cutters Marines against air.
Air is not OP because of their damage or strength, they are OP because of their mobility, if you go attack a secondary with tanks, marines, maruders or any ground unit and a bunch of banshees/hornets attack your main, unless you have hogs or wolves, by the time you get to your base it would either be destroyed or badly damaged then they can run away to you secondary then you have to go there, then when you get to your secondary they go back to your main and finish it off which is really annoying, similar to the mantis pelican push except that has a cooldown and it only works on one base and also has a timer but air can do that irritating tactic all day long.
Well the thing is destroying an army of vultures is easy with a lot of anti air but no matter how fast can you destroy it, they’ve already destroyed your base with special ability wich leaves you with your anti air army and one less base, on the other your enemy has no army but has more bases to pump whatever he wants
Yeah okay, what if the army of banshees just head to your base instead of fighting those marines? there are counter to air, sure, but only if air choose to engage. if they don't, especially on that map, you're fucked. you'll build tons of anti air to chase them which cost a ton of power. And then what? go destroy their base with wolves and reavers? not a chance.
that's before taking into account that the enemy can just go full vehicle/infantries at any point. then what's your anti air gonna do? rub their liver holes on them?
This is not a good representation. A good air player on 3s (where people say its op) will never come face to face with your army. They will circle around it and kill your base. As deci i could 1v2 on ashes against all AA for this simple fact. You cant catch them.
But the marines get destroyed by leader powers so in a real fight where the unsc dose not have very good leader powers against banshees but in a real match one would just glassing beam all the marines
Or you could just split up your marines instead of letting the glassing beam kill them all. Honestly I could make the same arguement about air if I drop a emp Mac blast on air they are dead they can’t even move and the marines would have a easy time killing them. Honestly just split up your units instead of letting them get murder by one beam
Half a pop of Marines will kill a full pop banshee army, so yeah, split em
Colony with banshee and skitter mix actually has the three mixes of green on the board with good Infantry, vehicle, and air dps from the banshees because combat repair with the skitters give alot of boost.
When heavy metal 3 max air hornets are at your main there’s nothing you can do even with eradication and glass and so on
I think the more important thing is dealing with air units speed. They can melt bases and fly away when threatened.
counter unit beats unit it counters! im not sure anyone would argue air can beat an army composing of stuff designed to shut it down. The issue would be simply the air can simply not engage that army.
With its mobility it can basically hit and run you to death unless you manage to lock it down with leader powers, once your army gets close, fly off and hit another area and just keep you chasing. Granted this depends on map and strat, a full turtle isnt gonna really care about air mobility because your army is all in one small area but otherwise its a lot of chasing and losing bits here and there.
banshees have trouble breaking through shileded banished bases with towers that have missiles.. UNSC air is FAR nastier though as they have heavy air units.
Oveall, i'd say that banished vs banished air's main threat is their high mobility, countered by the beating banished bases need to take before taking actual damage and reavers being highly mobile. UNSC vs UNSC though.. is far nastier, as Vultures can nuke buildings with ease and the only way the UNSC will catch up even short term is with air of their own
Pro tip: Anti Air forces may not destroy bases on the offensive. Bring a few building killers and destroy buildings. (Reavers and Wolverines need CORE units or BK's to damage buildings don't spam these expensive boys)
This could potentially slow air or even draw their attention. Once the buildings are destroyed the Air units would cost them more than your own army for each one shot down.
Most Anti Air can deal splash damage and AA turrets will be needed and is mandatory once attacking. (This is more successful on 2v2 3v3 scenarios)
Name one person with banshees that just sits on top of that. While yes it's a realistic army comp it's not a realistic scenario. Just think about in game man
Here’s the thing, me and my friends also tested this except instead of banshees, we used the UNSC equivalent (can’t remember the name) and they are majorly OP. Took out a full pop of marines, a full pop of wolverines. The only thing that could contend with it was the same amount of UNSC air. Banshees are still good but UNSC’s is slightly better. I recommend doing that test
The problem people have with air is the incredibly beneficial arsenal they hold. Being fast, damaging to all units and buildings, and on top of that not targetable at all by units such as hunters and scorpions, gives the impression that they just have too much firepower. Watching this video proved the point that infantry beats air, but I EXPECT that to be the case. The problem I have is the HUGE dent you could see the infantry army had after the battle. If you did full tanks vs full infantry, the tanks wouldn’t suffer a significantly large amount of losses like infantry does in this air vs infantry battle. Which is why people have a problem with it, infantry should be able to more effectively kill air, without the army left with 3 units left. Leader powers are instantly obsolete by air’s extremely fast speed, along with not being able to be stunned by ANYTHING. Turret drops, shade drops, mantis drops, ability/lp’s that could possibly temporarily halt air for a glassing beam for example to actually make their mark don’t really exist, other than serina and johnsons EMP, which then means you have to sacrifice an entire leader pick, just so you can stun some air. Along with how much damage air does to anti-air VEHICLES (air beats vehicle, therefore vehicles sustain a lot of damage from air regardless of them being anti air or not). In a counter ball army, you can micro-target the wolverines for example, and then take out the scorpions and cyclops’ that can’t even fight back. On the other hand, you can’t micro target enemy elite rangers with your full army of hunters, since the damage is so small. A similar system for anti air to receive reduced damage from air would be perfect.
Banshees only take supply to make while any type of anti air takes a decent amount of power and supply per unit. Banshees are fast and the most maneuverable unit in the game and can easily escape damage dealing leader powers unlike their anti air counterparts (bro come on one meme beam and that entire marine army is gone almost). Pairing certain leader powers with them like deci’s siphon, unbreakable, or bullwark practically guarantee a victory in a 1 on 1 engagement. You can double or even triple pump. Any sort of anti air has relatively low health. You can only really chase a banshee army with another banshee or hornet army. There are literally so many reasons why its op and you kind of ignored them all and focused on just their stats when its everything around them that complements them and make it op.... vultures are fucked tho.
Plus you have to upgrade that same anti-air which takes power. I can have level 3 banshees or hornets with all upgrades while the other team is just at level 2. Plus hit and run easy as hell.
No u
Oof
Y tho
No U
No I
Hi
My RTS experience is kinda limited cause until recently I've only played console RTS games but Halo Wars 2 is the only game I've played with such overwhelming air units. Even Command and Conquer 3's Scrin warships feel like they go down faster then Banshee spam.
Airs not that op lol. Unless we talk about vultures. That shits... well uh... gives me ptsd I’ll say that much
Do this test with vultures
next episode should be on what projectiles shrouds can block and if they can completely shut down units like blisterbacks and tanks
The one problem i have against air is this in halo wars 1 all you needed was like 7-8 wolverines to kill a banshee army EVEN WITH SACRIFICE and youre probably wondering why... its because of the targeting on the wolves in halo wars one was AMAZING unlike halo wars 2 where ive seen way more times than not is 5 wolves shooting at one banshee each and then you got halo wars one with each individual wolverine shooting at a different banshee if that was the case in halo wars 2 then air wouldnt be half of the problem that it is as of right now... and dont even get me started on phoenix missiles
Shit in HW1 if they don't have sacrifice you can kill a full pop of air (hornets too) with 5 or 6 even if they don't have dual launchers
Ohh god, keep mythbusters to memes and not balance plz
git gud kappa
Come back to the game pieman
No u
Im about to go run a full pop of marines now😆
Cutter viable?
Air is still OP and mean look at Vultures everything die to the Y Ability besides blisterbacks and YapYap in my opinion is the only leader who can solidly count Air
Are vultures better than condors?
@@doge8726 probably.. condors take 40 pop and you could get like 5 vultures instead which would most likely be better
Yes, you have shown that raw force alone can destroy air, but that is not what will always save you or cost you because when fighting Decimus he may glassing beam your army therefore you would lose everything and the air is so agile that it could also rush your base faster than you can move to it.
What they really need to do to balance the game is to double or triple the range of AA units. What's ridiculous is that Wolverines are basically useless unless you're right up on them, so Reavers are really the only units that work as sufficient form of AA mainly due to it's jump ability and power. This basically means that one player has to play as Banished which is annoying, why couldn't they make a unit similar to the Reaver for the UNSC such as a AA equipped Mantis?? AA turrets should have the same range as siege but only for Air, all of these feats would balance the game in my opinion but I think there is a bias for air and most people want to run air so that's not gonna happen.
This test is flawed because very few people will ever make a full pop of anti air. To do this correctly you should have a unit mix. Not to mention that if leader abilities are used before the fight it results in air having a better chance because banshees can our run a glassing beam but marines and wolverines can’t.
I had a full army of anti air and hornet spam still won
I. Hate. VULTURES!!!
The units in the game air fairly balanced all except vultures. The problem is the leader powers are EXTREMELY OP. Marines are good but one glassing beam would annihilate a marine composition cause they move slow.
I think the pelicans and hornets are almost as strong because I've dealt with a few of those pelicans and a wasp of hornets and they would always have like 4 or 5 hornets left after I send my banshee army at them.
Even post update air is still really good, and i also think anti air units shouldnt cost power its dumb ...
The only way to truly nerf Air is to make them more expensive.
A unit that costs only supplies is a joke.
Damage and Hp is only 1 factor. Banshees are fast and annoying, you just micro them through the map and nothing can hit you. anti-air simple cant keep up with them, you just back away and let your teammate finish them or go for his base faster than he can send units there
The fact that all AA will fire on a single unit at a time when air is doing circles is also a problem. Putting AA directly below makes it actually good which is the problem.
Also the fact it can kill a base so fast for how speedy the unit is.
It’s easier to deal with air if you are banished imo bc reavers are much more powerful than wolverines are. I don’t know if this is a good option or not but one way to nerf air is to make banshees/hornets cost power or make reavers/wolverines cost less power
Honestly airs damage has been already nerfed and wolves got buffed. I think what we need now is a vulture nerf and a vehicle speed buff. Air is too versatile and I think this is more of a case of why does everything but air move like snails (unless you run your favorite kinsano) buffing the speed of tanks just a bit. And buffing the speed of wolves just a bit. Honestly vultures can keep their damage and speed if they lower their health. They can be glass cannon back of the line air that can’t be kept in the front lines. Vultures with heavy metal three from forge are just broken because now they become super Tanky glassing beams, emp mac blasts, it doesn’t matter. High TEIR game sweaty guys just triple down on heavy metal and combat salvage. So even once you kill the murder army he’s got a full set again. Honestly just nerf their health to keep them as back line poke units or nerf the damage on them and buff their health to keep em as front line air like a floating tank. Right now you pass the ten minute mark and vultures just ruin any late game fun.
It's op because you need full pop anti air therefore you can do anything but counter his army
Banshees and Hornets shouldn't be allowed to shoot and move at the same time. Air's mobility allows too much coverage of the map as it is. Not to mention the cost only being resources
It's 2021 and air units are still overpowered. 343 did nothing about it. The reason Air units are OP is, that they are way too cheap. Why do their counterpart like wolverine and reaver costs more than air units? If you spam air units, the match is over. If you spam wolv or reaver they are literally useless to fighting a base or anything other than air units.
While I love the mythbuster series, I wonder if 1v1 unit fights might be another worthy comparison to make. The large scale combat is fun to watch and informational but we might get a better sense of per unit ability from 1v1.
I know these videos are for discussion but it might interesting to see. I'll be running some of my own 1v1 tests but still pretty sure Air is more valuable then Infintary
Would be more accurate to match pop for pop. A banshee vs a marine squad isn't realistic because a banshee costs more pop
Excellent video. Great job 👏 👍 👌
Hi team respawn I’ve got a RELAKY cool idea to check out. Me and my friend have been running Voridus and Isabel lately when we noticed that malstrum paired with ghost in the machine can take over an entire army. I wanted to know if you could do some myth busting with the ability and if you can confirm any other cool interactions. I had turned full pop banshees to my side and assaulted bases with their own full army. Malestrum also pairs so well with so many other ability’s. I think it would make for a cool episode because I’m wondering how many units could it actually grab in one use
Wolverines not being trash? Unbelievable
you can't just fly over the other units. You have to keep the air units at the edge.
Do grunts verses hornets and see what happens
It's not that air it self is op its the combo of leader powers with the air that makes it op with there speed.
1:38 “over two thirds are still alive” 😂math be tricky ha?
People who say air is OP really need to learn how to play.
These are neat
The banished imo make air look almost worthless(when countering), but unsc I fill has a difficult time with mass air
Eh fully upgraded air turrets and wolves with nightengales will deck anything. Honestly one person going anti and everyone else doing whatever army they want seems to hard press any army. Just keep your wolves in between the two bases so they can react fast enough to help out. I hope this helped also make sure to keep your units split up to avoid the meme beam.
Shallow Bay anders can be strong with early game and mid. Here’s why if you spam out marines and flame throwers to cap nodes and hold off early game pushes her leader with rpg is strong but also the fact rnd reduces cost of upgrades you can get grenade throw really quick and cheap and then get combat tech once you hit tech level two really fast too. After that mix it in mainly air and few kodiaks with the sentinel ability to call in little aggressors EVERYTIme a rocket hits a target and you can do really really good with her. She kinda gets weak in the late game. With the current state of match making SHES solid in singles and duos. She kinda just doesn’t have the leader powers to late game when stronger units come on the field.
Shallow Bay I hope this helped if ground like reavers are giving your problems have your kodiaks focus down anti air which will bolster your airs chance of survival!
Shallow Bay yeah sure thing I’ll gladly put my gamer tag in the chat why not BeadySaturn5428
I normally do 3 gales marines my hero and gause hogs if im fighting banshees
It's because of how badly balanced the air combat in Halo wars 2 is why I've stopped playing it, you could have the best anti air army ever but you'll still loose cuz you can't catch up to their army to kill them, I haven't played this game in months, and I probably won't play anything other than custom games cuz skirmish is a joke compared to the first Halo wars and I doubt 343 will do anything to fix the air issue
Che rita mamma mia. Air actually moves it doesn't stay there getting annihilated
Here's a tip always have anti air in your army no matter what because even if the enemy has no hostile air they might still have engineers or nightingales
Tru because even if it’s a not doing anything you can keep them at your main for a little bit of insurance. Just Incase to stall time
Air is just OP early game
Buff Vultures
Recuerdo que cuando salió halo wars 2 los wolwerines estaban muy nerfeados y era mejor sacar a los marines como antiaéreos veo que ahora hacen lo que deberían hacer
Yeah air is op have your friend constantly strafe and split and you shall see
AIR OP are Kevins
A full on fight ya, air won’t cut it, but in actual matches air is so much harder to deal with for a LOT of reasons
Why you didn't use hornets???
Do they still pit out balance patches for this game? when did vultures become so strong?
Yea but no one is gonna build a full army of anti air halo wars one u didn't need a full army of anti to destroy air
Ignoring all the talk about balance and if it’s op or not we can all atleast agree that it’s really really fucking boring to deal with
Will you be streaming at some point again ?
Yes! Hoping to do a stream one night next week!
It’s so boring having games where it’s constantly air air air ! Your base goes in seconds ! UNSC anti-air is a joke .... no mater how much anti-air you don’t stand a chance , cowards combo banshees and vulture , where’s the Battles the mix nah just go for that easy win with air ! Even when you fully upgrade anti air it doesn’t stand a chance , gone in seconds Every time I start a game I always prepare for an enemy air assault as 90% of the time I’m right
Random comment for the TH-cam algorithm.
no aa is to slow
This games mechanics don’t make too much sense. Halo wars 1 had better mechanics imo
I feel like this video is kinda missing the point
Air op? Get good
Your test videos are terrible, you couldn't see if half anti air would win? You need to be able to attack not just have an anti air army