Have you changed your own brake setup? What did you do and what led you to those changes? 🔵 Building a fast car? Get $400 OFF the all-inclusive VIP online course package deal: hpcdmy.co/offery144 🛑 Brake System course. Design & optimise your set up. Now 50% OFF your first course: hpcdmy.co/offery144 TIME STAMPS: 0:00 - Alcon Brakes 0:11 - Bigger Is Better? 0:49 - Brake Balance Is Key 1:14 - Rotating & Unsprung Weight 2:11 - Generative Design 3:18 - Quick Change Pads 4:08 - Compliance/Stiffness 5:15 - Brake Boosters & Motorsport 6:00 - Balance Bar & Sizing 6:38 - Pedal Effort/Stiffness 7:43 - Brake Knock-back/Knock-off 8:27 - Solutions 9:07 - Drivers POV 9:34 - Thanks Phil! 9:56 - More Great Content
We have Alcon calliper’s the large GT / endurance ‘fancy shaped’ ones , 6 pot 380mm and 4 pot 330 rears , lightweight and extremely good quality. These guys are correct , there are various factors to consider when going big , including downforce , tyre width / grip suspension geometry , shocker settings and driver style. One can’t just judge callipers by slamming on in ‘ drive like you stole it mode ‘ . Trail breaking , turn in point and weight transfer to the front axle have a huge effect. Any gt3 cup driver will know what I mean . I would have another set , no problem
We had some EMF at this event on the frequencies we use (and have used for some time) for the mic packs. Unfortunately, it didn't get picked up till afterwards, but we will double-check this specifically when we're back for the next round in the future - Taz.
My older car without ABS has big brakes front and rear. I have a proportioning valve in the rear brake line, which has been very helpful in dialing brake balance. How do you do this with an ABS car? You can do math with piston sizes and rotor diameter to come up with something close to factory brake balance. It seems to me that you would have a hard time figuring out what temperature the brakes will be operating at, and since coefficient of friction varies somewhat with temperature, your calculations will be a little off. So it would be nice to have something to adjust brake balance on ABS cars. How do you do this? Do you just have to try pads with different friction characteristics until you get good balance? Is it OK to bias the rears, then add a proportioning valve for adjustment?
Yes you can over size breaks and they will lock faster! But you don’t want that. Now if you have an ABS system then you can start over sizing. Cause you have ABS computer. Now with that said. Up size calipers but keeping original masters seams to work un boosted. But soon as you add boost they lock fast. The 11 second car took a bit to slow but was very controllable, the 13 second car with boosted brakes stopped faster but was very grabby. Not something you want when you still running original suspension!
It's more about thermal management than outright stopping power. OEM brakes simply cannot handle the heat generated in a motorsport application nor are they designed to - Taz.
almost every car on the road can lock up race tires on the track with the right pad selection, the size of the piston, pad, and master cylinder helps modulate brake pressures much more than outright braking force. If you think about it, the larger the pad, the lower total force you can apply to the rotor. Just in psi. Maybe this is an over simplification and someone can correct if wrong.
You’re correct but you need to consider heat dissipation and rate. So while you can lock up your wheel, how long can you transfer kinetic into heat before the heat becomes too much and you loose braking
Can't think of a modern-ish car that doesn't have ABS, but even without that, the increase in brake torque required for slicks may make it difficult for some vehicles. I don't think you meant "modulate" - or most of the rest of that sentence, as it doesn't make any logical sense. Maybe if you re-wrote it?
@@gordowg1wg145 the point was small brakes still develop way more torque than Rcomps have friction. I did mean modulate. The driver of a car with properly sized braking hardware for racing has lots of options, with a huge amount of adjustability in the force of the brake pedal, and pad clamping force. There are many ways to write things, its abusive (gaslighting, for one) and discriminatory to discredit someone else, especially when it's your reading comprehension issue.
@@mm6705 Uh, are you SURE you want to stick to that? For example, equating "small brakes", what-ever that's supposed to mean, (braking?) torque, and "Rcomps"(again, whatever that's supposed to mean), which are three different things, like it's supposed to be relevant to anything... It's certainly good for a laugh, but you REALLY don't have any idea what you're talking out in either post - it reads like something a kid would write who had read some car 'comics' and understood nothing. It is true there are many ways of writing things - but those ways have to be logical, easily read and comprehended, and consistent with facts and evidence if claiming engineering or scientific relevance. It's not discriminatory to call out someone who is making claims that are illogical and incorrect. I did not "discredit" you - you did that yourself by what you wrote. Now, do you wish to revise what you have been writing, or do you wish to admit you are foolish so we can move on?
@@mm6705 Sorry, forgot - the primary problem with modulation is the pad-disc characteristics - while some combinations have a relatively straight line CoF, others can be quite "grabby" in that the initial brake torque is greater than the nominal CoF and applied force on the pads would suggest, others can be "sicky" where a reduction of the applied pad force doesn't reduce the brake torque as much as would be expected - ie, they don't have linear CoFs.
I always question brake bias when ppl upgrade the front brakes to big brakes on their street car and retain the OEM rear brakes. Is the bias correct when this is done or should there be some sort of bias adjustment added when upgrading to big brakes? -pantyeatr1
There does seem to be some set-ups that would seem to be unbalanced - but usually bigger front brakes are used with better tyres, which can offer more front load transfer and so more potential to use better front brakes. Pad characteristics - the CoF vs temperature - may be a relatively easy way to balance the brakes when a proportioning valve, or pedal box, isn't practical or legal.
Yeah, that's how you get worse braking performance with bigger brakes, not uncommon. Brake balance is very very important to get shortest brake distance.
Leveraging the knowledge of industry experts is a smart move, and is what they are there for 😎 As mentioned there is a crossover between Alcon and AP, and they both benefit from having each other around to push each other as top-tier competitors 😎 This is a great podcast episode if you are keen on a bit more insight into that world: th-cam.com/video/dMbOmXZtlKo/w-d-xo.html - Taz.
@@hpa101 I used Essex parts here in the USA to do mine. They made several kits so everyone has an oportunity to get the same upgrades as I did on my 370z.
Have you changed your own brake setup? What did you do and what led you to those changes?
🔵 Building a fast car? Get $400 OFF the all-inclusive VIP online course package deal: hpcdmy.co/offery144
🛑 Brake System course. Design & optimise your set up. Now 50% OFF your first course: hpcdmy.co/offery144
TIME STAMPS:
0:00 - Alcon Brakes
0:11 - Bigger Is Better?
0:49 - Brake Balance Is Key
1:14 - Rotating & Unsprung Weight
2:11 - Generative Design
3:18 - Quick Change Pads
4:08 - Compliance/Stiffness
5:15 - Brake Boosters & Motorsport
6:00 - Balance Bar & Sizing
6:38 - Pedal Effort/Stiffness
7:43 - Brake Knock-back/Knock-off
8:27 - Solutions
9:07 - Drivers POV
9:34 - Thanks Phil!
9:56 - More Great Content
@0:50 Thank you B-roller.....your an A in my heart.
Give that man a raise
We have Alcon calliper’s the large GT / endurance ‘fancy shaped’ ones , 6 pot 380mm and 4 pot 330 rears , lightweight and extremely good quality.
These guys are correct , there are various factors to consider when going big , including downforce , tyre width / grip suspension geometry , shocker settings and driver style. One can’t just judge callipers by slamming on in ‘ drive like you stole it mode ‘ . Trail breaking , turn in point and weight transfer to the front axle have a huge effect. Any gt3 cup driver will know what I mean . I would have another set , no problem
Can we get a little more info on the RRF valve? I have heard of residual pressure valves, but not these. Thank y’all!
Is it just me, or is the low pass filter way too aggressive in the audio? Everyone sounds really nasally in the video.
We had some EMF at this event on the frequencies we use (and have used for some time) for the mic packs. Unfortunately, it didn't get picked up till afterwards, but we will double-check this specifically when we're back for the next round in the future - Taz.
Dear Mr. Stubbs, Congratulations on the excellent and enlightening interview, truly Pure Innovation applied to the Industry.Paulo Dominonni
They make beautiful stuff and its British. Very interesting thanks lads. 😎😎👊👊👍👍✌✌
My older car without ABS has big brakes front and rear. I have a proportioning valve in the rear brake line, which has been very helpful in dialing brake balance. How do you do this with an ABS car? You can do math with piston sizes and rotor diameter to come up with something close to factory brake balance. It seems to me that you would have a hard time figuring out what temperature the brakes will be operating at, and since coefficient of friction varies somewhat with temperature, your calculations will be a little off. So it would be nice to have something to adjust brake balance on ABS cars. How do you do this? Do you just have to try pads with different friction characteristics until you get good balance? Is it OK to bias the rears, then add a proportioning valve for adjustment?
Yes you can over size breaks and they will lock faster! But you don’t want that. Now if you have an ABS system then you can start over sizing. Cause you have ABS computer. Now with that said. Up size calipers but keeping original masters seams to work un boosted. But soon as you add boost they lock fast. The 11 second car took a bit to slow but was very controllable, the 13 second car with boosted brakes stopped faster but was very grabby. Not something you want when you still running original suspension!
It's more about thermal management than outright stopping power. OEM brakes simply cannot handle the heat generated in a motorsport application nor are they designed to - Taz.
almost every car on the road can lock up race tires on the track with the right pad selection, the size of the piston, pad, and master cylinder helps modulate brake pressures much more than outright braking force. If you think about it, the larger the pad, the lower total force you can apply to the rotor. Just in psi. Maybe this is an over simplification and someone can correct if wrong.
You’re correct but you need to consider heat dissipation and rate. So while you can lock up your wheel, how long can you transfer kinetic into heat before the heat becomes too much and you loose braking
Can't think of a modern-ish car that doesn't have ABS, but even without that, the increase in brake torque required for slicks may make it difficult for some vehicles.
I don't think you meant "modulate" - or most of the rest of that sentence, as it doesn't make any logical sense.
Maybe if you re-wrote it?
@@gordowg1wg145 the point was small brakes still develop way more torque than Rcomps have friction. I did mean modulate. The driver of a car with properly sized braking hardware for racing has lots of options, with a huge amount of adjustability in the force of the brake pedal, and pad clamping force. There are many ways to write things, its abusive (gaslighting, for one) and discriminatory to discredit someone else, especially when it's your reading comprehension issue.
@@mm6705
Uh, are you SURE you want to stick to that?
For example, equating "small brakes", what-ever that's supposed to mean, (braking?) torque, and "Rcomps"(again, whatever that's supposed to mean), which are three different things, like it's supposed to be relevant to anything...
It's certainly good for a laugh, but you REALLY don't have any idea what you're talking out in either post - it reads like something a kid would write who had read some car 'comics' and understood nothing.
It is true there are many ways of writing things - but those ways have to be logical, easily read and comprehended, and consistent with facts and evidence if claiming engineering or scientific relevance.
It's not discriminatory to call out someone who is making claims that are illogical and incorrect.
I did not "discredit" you - you did that yourself by what you wrote.
Now, do you wish to revise what you have been writing, or do you wish to admit you are foolish so we can move on?
@@mm6705
Sorry, forgot - the primary problem with modulation is the pad-disc characteristics - while some combinations have a relatively straight line CoF, others can be quite "grabby" in that the initial brake torque is greater than the nominal CoF and applied force on the pads would suggest, others can be "sicky" where a reduction of the applied pad force doesn't reduce the brake torque as much as would be expected - ie, they don't have linear CoFs.
I always question brake bias when ppl upgrade the front brakes to big brakes on their street car and retain the OEM rear brakes. Is the bias correct when this is done or should there be some sort of bias adjustment added when upgrading to big brakes? -pantyeatr1
There does seem to be some set-ups that would seem to be unbalanced - but usually bigger front brakes are used with better tyres, which can offer more front load transfer and so more potential to use better front brakes.
Pad characteristics - the CoF vs temperature - may be a relatively easy way to balance the brakes when a proportioning valve, or pedal box, isn't practical or legal.
Yeah, that's how you get worse braking performance with bigger brakes, not uncommon. Brake balance is very very important to get shortest brake distance.
I let the experts do my AP racing brake upgrade.
MD of Alcon used to be MD of AP racing , he just got tired of AP and set up on his own . Their both as good as each other just so do more products
Leveraging the knowledge of industry experts is a smart move, and is what they are there for 😎
As mentioned there is a crossover between Alcon and AP, and they both benefit from having each other around to push each other as top-tier competitors 😎
This is a great podcast episode if you are keen on a bit more insight into that world: th-cam.com/video/dMbOmXZtlKo/w-d-xo.html - Taz.
@@hpa101 I used Essex parts here in the USA to do mine. They made several kits so everyone has an oportunity to get the same upgrades as I did on my 370z.