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Why Isn't Kickstarter A Good Deal Anymore?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ส.ค. 2024
- Patreon: / boardgameco
It used to be easy to find a great buy on Kickstarter, a game that would offer you incentives, extras, a good price or something. Those still exist....but as Kickstarter and tabletop games within Kickstarter has grown....those games haven't. The tabletop category over the past decade has explored on Kickstarter, but for the most part it's exploded as a preorder system that barely rewards you for partaking in it. The publisher is seeing much higher margins per game when selling on Kickstarter, and yet you're paying the same price as you would in store. Why are so many companies on Kickstarter barely giving you a reason to back?
What happened here?
TimeStamps:
0:00:00 - Introduction & What Happened to Kickstarter
0:01:58 - Why Is There An Expectation That Kickstarter Should Be A Good Deal?
0:05:42 - Reason 1: Large vs Small Publishers
0:08:03 - Reason 2: Kickstarter is Growing and Thus Fracturing
0:11:47 - Reason 3: Protecting the MSRP & Value Perception
0:15:38 - Reason 4: Us
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Great Insights Alex! One thing to keep in mind is the Direct to Consumer model (which bypasses the Wholesale/Retail model) carries much larger marketing costs. Whether it's KS or post-campaign e-commerce, this cost of acquisition can range from 10% - 30%. Keep up the great work!
Excellent point! Didn't even think of this, although I should have known. Pinning for visibility.
There is another piece that companies gain in marketing for judging market share. Before he retired, Stephen Buonocore from Stronghold Games (Indie Boards and Cards) said the marketing data the company gets from KS was more valuable than the 10% that KS takes off the top. I believe it is "The Secret Cabal Podcast" that mention this in their special episode with Stephen. Based upon how large you already are, and how much hype can be generated in other board game channels the KS itself can be its own marketing engine, as there is already a community that does nothing but look at KS releases.
I would note that many of the KS projects request backers to promote the project on social media - so that's free. And the backers are incentivized by any project with stretch goals so they can get 'more stuff'. I'm uncertain what % of the total marketing that would be, but still zero cost to the project itself.
@@FCL70 Yeah, but how many backers actually do anything to promote the projects. I've never done any social media promotion for things. The only "promotion" I've done is to friends, who aren't going to buy the game anyway because *I'm* buying it.
Please stop supporting patreon!
Very tiny publisher here - thought I would chime in on this fantastic conversation. For us, we use nearly 100% of any "profit" earned on Kickstarter to print game copies above the Kickstarter fulfillment level. Our actual profit (the stuff we take home to keep food on the table, etc) primarily comes from selling those extra games. So, at least from where we are coming from, we are giving as good a deal to backers as we possibly can afford. We don't look at Kickstarter as a profit center so much as an opportunity to print new games.
Now, to your point, much larger publishers who are on Kickstarter probably don't need to work that way. They (hopefully) have enough money in the bank to do a print run, regardless of how much money they earn during their campaign. That said, I'm happy they don't slash prices 30-40% on their campaigns, as that would make our campaigns pail by comparison in value.
So, like you said, it's a fine line. We obviously want to reward our backers for helping us make the game in the first place. But we can't go so far that the numbers just don't work out.
Anyhow - great video. Really enjoy the channel. Keep it up!
Thank you for jumping in! And yes, that line is definitely fine. KS as a whole is still doing well, so it's working....but it's also relying on a lot of fomo which may not be sustainable in the long run.
Spot on
@@BoardGameCo agreed
My impression is that the reason that Kickstarter games aren't a good deal anymore is that too many people blindly back too many KS projects that don't offer a good deal.
Thanks that you try to do something about it by making your videos.
💯 a part of it. That's why I spent the most time on the 4th reason, on us backing games that don't give us a reason to do so.
This is really hitting on a problem I'm having with Kickstarter.
Take away games from tiny publishers, or individuals, who are just trying to get a game made. Those are not going to have the greatest value, but you are usually backing because you find the game interesting, want to see it made, and it won't be available at retail most likely. Those are more of what Kickstarter was originally meant for.
But then I see a game from a well established publisher, say AEG, and their Kickstarter for a much hyped, and what does look to be a great game, Dead Reckoning. The cost of that game doesn't seem to be a great value. The islands aren't dual-layer, even though they could really use it. Metal coins cost extra, and are not cheap. There is nothing deluxe, or special, about the Kickstarter. They claim it won't be coming to retail, yet they slap MSRP on everything to make it seem like you are getting a good deal. Other than the fact it looks like a great game, and they are tossing in an "expansion", also known as cut content to allow them to charge more (see video game industry practices), the game is not great value.
Compare that to what you get from a smaller publisher, games such as The Age of Atlantis or The Dwellings of Everdale, and you can see how drastically different they are. You can see the value in those, the deluxe versions you will be getting. You know those deluxe versions won't be coming to retail, it just wouldn't be financially viable at the price you paid when you factor in the extra channels.
This makes me feel like the bigger publisher is doing the Kickstarter just to pocket more money for themselves (which is fine), whereas those other smaller publishers are giving us something special, more than we'd get at retail for the same price.
You had me until you used AEG's card crafting games as an example. Those are expensive games to make and are not coming to retail. The only way these games come out is through Kickstarter. Those games are what Kickstarter is for. Now if you pointed to games like Isle of Cats, I'm behind you 100%. The support tier being higher than what the game will sell for when it comes to retail is unacceptable. I now use the "will it come to retail?" question to decide if I back it or wait for the game to be available cheaper at retail.
I really like to see passion from the publisher/designers I have backed games on occasion not so much because of the value proposition but because the small guys really bust a gut trying to get their game made, Jack Spoerner and his Dungeon of Infinity which crawls slowly towards production. He had so much heart, I actually took two copies as did a number of other backers to make it happen for him. Wes Woodbury is another small designer who pushed his Legends of Novus game. There are some good examples of two designers that used KS for the purpose it was designed for.
If FFG started using KS, your head would explode. You would not be making excuses for them. I’m a fan of AEG too but I don’t think they need to use KS to get their games made. They never used to. I’ve played and bought Thunderstone since their first version. Now I’m waiting for their 3rd TS KS to ship.
@@PondoSinatra680 I agree, CMON does not need to do this, Gamelyn games, Steve Jackson, all successful game publishers do not need the help of KS. I to am waiting for the 3rd TS KS to ship to. KS has a lot of psychological elements to what it does, it is not just about the money, as people as you can see are willing to pay more for a game. Having done some work in "gamification" KS does a good job of using elements that appeal to people to make the decision easier to back.
@@PsiNorm Wow, is that what happened with Isle of Cats? I'm new to the whole Kickstarter board games thing, and I'm super cautious about supporting any because of things like that.
Also, with all these huge companies, it seems obvious they don't need to use Kickstarter for this when they've got capital to work with already. So yeah, if they're gonna use KS there better be some shiny extras for lower prices.
For someone like me, who's new to KS for board games, this dilemma makes it hard to commit to backing anything. I definitely feel the FOMO, but I also want to only back things that offer exclusives or won't be coming to retail. Some way to find small publishers that need backing would be handy.
Sorry this video was a bit late! I made the mistake of making an edit within TH-cam....and it got locked up for an hour while processing. Lesson learned.
I came across your channel a couple of weeks ago and I am just impressed at the quality of your videos, they way you critique games and Kickstarters are really fair. Thank you!
Thank you!
Great video man! I'm glad you made this to bring more awareness to this topic of value. One thing I am surprised you didn't mention, besides of course judging the value of a game if you should give a publisher money now or not on KS and if it's a good deal when you factor in shipping and how much the game will be at retail, you have to also factor in the time your money is being tied up as an investment. Especially now with covid going on and everything being pushed back, shipping being higher now, and the cost of games going up with "all in pledges" with things like sundrop and extras and what not, adds up into hundreds of dollars per KS very quickly. The more kickstarters you back, a person could have thousands of dollars tied up waiting for deliveries. So I do feel that it's crucial that the publisher has to provide a very good value for your money when you look at it like you're giving them a 0% interest loan in hopes you'll get your game in a timely manner and that it was worth your time waiting for sometimes years. Also one thing I have been wondering about is the 1$ back option to get into a pledge manager. This is becoming more and more common and this gives even more money into the publishers pockets since it also removes the 10% or whatever KS takes from the project right? Is this having any effect on KS relations with creators? As a backer, I use this often especially when I'm not sure on a project, and ultimately lesses the time my money is tied up to spend on other things. Also it gives time for the backer to see things like how production and testing of the game is going which sometimes reveal red flags as to not give any more money than the 1$ placeholder. Anyway if you actually read this long comment you're a legend, sorry if it kinda rambled on. Keep up the great content!
I read, I am Legend! HaHa. I agree with your point. I am loaning them my money,and I expect something in return. Opportunity cost brother!
@@michaelb8111 Your not loaning them your money - that would imply some legal accountability, you are giving them your money... Obviously in hopes of a product or service in return. There is no guarantee that you will get the advertised product or service, nor is there the slightest requirement for reimbursement of funds if things don't work out. You are giving a company money free of any real contractual agreement. They can do what ever they want with it.
Terrific video. Very insightful. I hereby vow to watch every one of your "to back or not to back" videos from now on.
Thank you :-)
"Why are so many companies on Kickstarter barely giving you a reason to back?" ... +1
Yep :(
Because people back anyway. They don't need a reason while we keep backing.
Exactly. Because there’s so much Kickstarter momentum right now, that any decently produced campaign will succeed, no question. That’s all it takes.
Great video as always! Alex, I think you are the most in-depth reviewer on TH-cam and always have a great rationale! Respect!
Thank you!
I seriously don't know how you do what you do. You have a job. A wife. Several kids (think 4, +/- 1), and you not only make the videos that I love to watch, but you find time to play games too! Not only do you make the videos, but I feel that they are quality videos. You are animated, informative, you make your videos convenient with the time stamps, and you make a LOT of videos . Keep up the great work, man. I love what you do
Caffeine and little sleep :) But thank you!
Impressed at the increased quality of your videos and audio in the last 5 months. Well done! Wonderful video btw!
Thank you!
I spend WAY MORE on Kickstarter than on a game I order from retail, even including my pimping up costs (which are substantial) the "all in" pledge is a killer! My biggest problem is I forget about games I pledged, then this GIGANTIC box arrives and I have to figure out where its going to go...
That's my favorite part! Backing a game, forgetting, and then having random birthday presents show up throughout the year :)
Thanks for the (again) great video! Your insight in the economics side of kickstarter games is really interesting and has learned me a lot and brought me new perspectives. Your videos also help me get my spending and fomo in check, so thanks! :D
Thanks! Really appreciate you saying so :)
This was a really insightful and indepth look at this issue on both sides. I never thought about the additional margins that would need to be covered by smaller publishers for their start up costs such as art. Seems like something not well considered in some of these arguments...
Thanks for the great video!
Thank you! Any relation to a Chaim Apfel by any chance?
@@BoardGameCo not that I know of! But there are very few of us Apfels around!
I just knew about KS this year, before i knew about your channel, i backed every KS game that i like without considering the difference between retail and KS price, i just went All in for everything due to FOMO, not only adding the expansions but i did the add on such as the sleeves, play mat, art book, dice tower and whatever not. What you said in your videos make sense, and i learn a lot of from you, so thanks for that.
Thanks! Greatly appreciate it!
BoardGameCo is my new favorite youtube board game channel. I don't know why. Maybe just his cool, easy to listen to voice, his emphatically- but kindly- stated opinions, his knowledge. Just entertaining and informative, and watching removes the stress in my day. Thanks!
Next video....ASMR content.
But seriously thank you.
@@BoardGameCo - ASMR! Ha ha!
Another great, insightful vid. Thanks.
Great topic! Kickstarters are always such a hot topic of debate for various reasons, but it's definitely a tough market with so much risk.
For sure, it's such a fascinating corner of our hobby. Both engaging and frustrating at the same time.
Very good content, thank you.
The theory of protecting MSRP is a thing in general retail but it also works in reverse. Santorini was on kickstarter for full price and later was selling for 12 dollars at major retailers. That soured the whole kick starter experience and haven't bought one since. Kickstarter has an early adopters tax once a game goes to retail.
Thank you for all those videos. I'm getting excited about kickstarter games pretty easy :D but thanks to your videos I'm trying to take a big breath and reconsider my backs ;) already save few bucks. From next month I'm going to invest in your patreon and toss some coins for my witcher ;)
Toss a coin to your Witcher!!!!! I need to make that my theme song, love it.
Very guilty of FoMO is why I appreciate your work as it put's some of my impulse purchases in check! One thing I was surprised you didn't really cover for benefit for the creator was we are helping to cover their production costs as well with essentially a zero interest loan and also a what are we going to do if they don't pay (deliver) on time vs a bank loan?
Good point. I don't cover that only because I don't think of it.....I don't even touch any KS that I believe is a risk and fortunately I've yet to be burnt yet. I should cover it..don't get me wrong.
New to board games, however I have launched a couple of Kickstarter projects (to publish books). A couple of things to keep in mind: small companies and individuals aren't going to print in as big a volume as big companies, which means that the cost for each item is more expensive. Secondly, shipping is surprisingly expensive, especially if you're doing international shipping. Also, if you raise about $10,000, you're going to have to pay taxes on that. Now, maybe big companies are overcharging for their games (in which case, don't back it), but I find that it's impossible to make a profit on Kickstarter. I use Kickstarter so I don't have to ask for a bank loan for my projects.
Thank you Alex. Great insight.
Appreciate it :)
Interesting video! Thanks!
Very good overview! Good insights :-)
Thank you!
Very accurate evaluation. We're going to keep seeing less value if we keep throwing money at games because of our fomo. "Would I pay this price in the game store?" Is the first thing I always ask myself before I back a KS thanks to you.
Yep, I need to remind myself too.
I always appreciate when a KS subsidizes shipping. This protects MSRP, but is a measurable benefit for the consumer. The extras are definitely greatly appreciated, but not at the expense of proper game play.
Yes, that's an excellent point. They should really consider that as a way of not hurting the value but adding value.
good video, enjoyed it. I want to add that retailers will become more and more important as the "retail pledge" option (aka buying in bulk) will present the best deal possible. I think the next adjustment is consumers 'pledging' through their local retailer to have access to the retailer discount
That's interesting, Stephen. But isn't the whole point of the Retail pledge that the creator wants their game in retail space, too? The creator sees value in getting into brick and mortar shops, and so is willing to drop the price to get it there (because a retailer has to mark it up for a profit). It's not just a bulk discount, it's a strategic discount. No? If htat's the case, why would a creator want all including buyers (99% of the backers) to take advantage of the retail discount? (I'm not claiming expertise. I just enjoy the discussion and learning.)
This is another video which generates thought. I agree with what you are saying and I too have slowed my KS purchases as I no longer see the value - CMON is the exception.
Yes, definitely other exceptions but as a general rule...yes.
Kickstarter prices are slowly creeping up, that CMON Game that was $90 is now $120 not to mention all the crazy add-ons.
In many cases yes. But still the best deal out there in general.
I managed to get a copy of Rum and Bones second tide at a FLGS last year. Now there's only a handful of copies online, and as for expansions... well, good luck. It's a fun game with great minis, and if you didn't get it on kickstarter, you're now essentially not able to get it. People who bought an all-in pledge can sell it for way more than they paid for it.
Heck, even Blood Rage, which still pops up in stores, goes almost instantly when I see it on second-hand local trading markets. I decided I wanted it a few months ago, and I've still not been able to get my hands on a copy.
Yeah that's what's become really annoying. What used to be free stretch goals are now 20,30 maybe even $50 add ons!!!!
Yeah, $100-120+shipping and add-ons...lucky to complete a pm for less than $250.
Very interesting. Do you have any stats about failure rates for board games on kickstarter ? i.e. games that never get produced and delivered ? Backing is not buying, so there is a real risk for us backers as well. But I haven't seen any stats around that. Would be interesting to know whether that is 10%, 5% or 2% ?
Wow, Is this one-take video? that's amazing
Thanks :) I'm allergic to editing, which means I need to get as good as I can to minimize it :)
I still hope there will be some very good catches in the future, even tho yes, You are right in the title and in the video: KS was about more than pre-order games coming out 1 year later... The journey itself for any decent KS project is very exciting, but more frequently this not coming hand-in-hand with "yes we creating this project together". The success of certain projects are already defined and day by day You are hyped for the new extras only (Terraforming Mars Turmoil or Big Box, and yes I was one of those people backed both anyways). It's still a better experience than going to the local game store and take a box off the shelf.
Oh there still will be. Deals can certainly be had, or my entire channel would be just saving myself the research and saying don't back. they're just fewer and further between, and the collective new companies being on Kickstarter don't seem to be associated with the amount of new good deals.
Very nice video. Much like other comments here, I’m glad to see more and more people talk about the business side of hobby gaming. I agree with sooooo many games competing for our time/attention and bottom line our money. (Pardon the bottom line pun 😉) I will say I do enjoy the stretch goal game tho. Must be my inner Vegas. Subscribed to you immediately after finishing this video. It’s a great topic for discussion.
100%, I love the stretch goal game too... :)
Part of the reason Kickstarters aren't good deals has to do with the type of games being started. It's becoming usual that the game is little more than an excuse to sell extravagantly modeled miniatures. Even if it's a reasonable price for the content, the game doesn't look any better served for having them. A lot of times I see a Kickstarter and wonder if I need the minis rather than if the game is one I might want to play. Generally, the answer is no and I end up spending my game budget on cheaper, released, titles with less flash.
Great solid advice. We are entering the phase of needing to cull our collection. It’s so difficult, but the truth is we will literally *never* get majority of our collection to the table. $ Alison
I would add that as the popularity of kickstarter games continues to skyrocket, so does the competition for our attention. Marketing costs go up from ads on facebook, instagram to preferential searches on kickstarter itself and Google SEO, those costs are passed onto the consumer.
It's definitely a tricky situation. i first noticed it a few years back as KS had more big name and/or established companies as opposed to the smaller and newer designers. i complained that they were essentially using KS as a preorder tool, where in theory, the bigger companies have the resources to bring a game to production without crowd funding. So this is where i often disagree with your evaluations on "should you back this" because you will frequently warn against newcomer designers because of the risk. While i acknowledge that the purpose of a platform can change, i disagree that KS should be used for larger companies to help trim down their bottom line by getting the consumer to pay up front (or more w/ S&H). i understand that they're taking advantage of the economic tool here, but it doesn't seem to sit right that they're pushing out new innovators. And to counter my own argument a little, some companies (such as CMON) have used this to offset their own risk by testing the waters on how well a new game concept/setting/etc will be received.
Agreed and disagreed. I'd argue that I'm more "consumer friendly" then most, specifically because I push for a KS transaction to be a mutually beneficial arrangement.
As long as a large company is using KS to offer a better value...I'm all in. That's not pure selfishness, that's a win-win.
Congrats on 7000.
Thanks!
Some great insight into the board game industry on KS right now! As a first-time publisher, I am actively trying to avoid this. Our first game will be going up at a discounted price with free shipping and will hopefully be upgraded by stretch goals to make the deal even better.
Ooohh color me excited :) What game and when?
@@BoardGameCo Vowl: The Game of Letters Gone Astray. It launches August 3rd! www.cameronartgames.com/vowl
Agree 100% on these. And I love that you point out "us" as a reason. Other channels have scalded companies for "exploitative" or "shady" KS practices, but I've always said it's the consumer that enables the companies to do it. They know the consumer will back regardless, so it's the companies' prerogative to take advantage of business as much as possible. Sure, they can also be more consumer-friendly, but until we start speaking up w/ our wallets about it, they have no reason to.
Also, re: point #2, it reminds me of a good comment I read on a KS once: "It's never a good time to launch a KS." KS is just so saturated now, and expensive, that competition for our dollar is higher than ever. I think is is also why some games are actually offering less content for price, b/c KS is sort of the pseudo-standard now for publishers, that they feel there's no reason to have tons of FOMO or incentives on KS. I mean...of all the major publishers and indie publishers, really just the Asmodee umbrella and a couple smaller labels have avoided KS.
edit:
Also, even if a KS itself IS a good deal, the S&H usually makes up for it and turns it back into a basic, or even bad, deal. Like "hey, this game is $20 less than retail! ...but also costs $25 for S&H...$40 after I ad the add-ons." I avoided KS for years, only really delving deep into it last year and went on a backing binge for a handful of months. Til I finally realized how much S&H makes these games, not really that great of a deal...
Yep. I still back the ones that are good deals and the occasional one I really want...but otherwise I walk away.
The 'holy trifecta' of KS games: sooner delivery, cheaper game, more stuff fell apart a few years ago. Now a) publishers push their game to retail/cons so, combined with the postal delays, you get your KS game often later than others, b) games are just as expensive as retail because shipping skyrocketed, publishers pad costs with production, c) public backlash towards KSE and game-bloat with pre-planned game component design (for tighter development & production timelines) has caused creators to scale back on SGs. So, yeah, except (any) CMON games and KS-exclusive games, it's now better to just let your FLGS now you want a KS game and hope they back it.
Basically. I try to back where I can or where I know I like the game...but more and more I'm out.
If your local flgs is in CMON's retailer program, you can reserve a KSE with them and cut out the shipping...
This, lol. I want to argue, but “i want it first” and KSEs are the only two reasons I would ever even look at a KS that I might want. It sounds horrible of me, so I just deflect with the excuse “I’d rather support my FLGS. Thew used to give me free tables to play on.”
Great topic. Exception to small company providing value might be Blacklist Games. Their recent miniature campaign was an amazing deal and the SG were really amazing. Of course selling mini’s is different than actual game so will have to see how their next campaign measures up.
Totally agreed! There are definitely exceptions here and there and appreciate each and every one of them :)
Great topic, It's very rare a good deal lately. IMO the only good deals i feel i've gotten are group pledges. The KS projects that view their backers as customers tend not to be a good deal, and projects that view backers as partners/retailers tend to be better deal. Give me an option for group pledge for 50% off MSRP. Those have been decent backed games for me.
What would you say to a kickstarter that has stretch goals that lower the price. So passing on some of the bulk savings to the backers once the initial fixed costs are covered.?
I'm ok with it for myself, but it can hurt the value perception down the road.
It depend a lot if the games goes retail, or not. If it goes retail, the KS price can not be too small, no matter how much the production cost get reduced.
The problem is that the way KS works this is convoluted to implement: As soon a a reward tier has at least one backer it _cannot_ be altered - so a SG lowering the price would require adding duplicate reward tiers with the new price, and then ask backers to switch their reward levels to the new one.
Yes, I had two ideas for that issue one is that the reduced price comes off the postage /shipping.
Alternatively and this might not be possible with the current platforming functionality. But take a reduced amount from each pledge when the campaign closes.
As during the campaign no money has actually moved yet.
My two cents is that I back games on Kickstarter primarily for guaranteed access rather than gambling that I will ever be available to get the game at retail before it sells out and second-hand copies start going for a 50% premium over even the KS price.
Totally agree...or 98% agree.
Companies are keep releasing and releasing games, they dont playtest them enough and we end up most of the time with an average game and SGs that arent playtested and break the game.
The best SGs for me are the upgraded components.
The new trend is daily SGs, with less KS exclusives and even less profit for us.
100% I hate playing games that I paid a lot for and I feel like a beta tester on.
KS exclusives are bad for games, so it's good there's less and less of those.
Great points. The one thing that really gets me mad is when a big company puts the actual core game content in their stretch goals. Like unlocking 2 or 3 out of 4 playable characters when the whole game has no reason to be released without them... And of course later at retail they are already inside. So the whole SG journey, as they call it, seems pointless at best. At this point they could've just produced their game and sell it the traditional way.
I forget to mention, superb video (I'm gonna run out of superlatives with you).
Thanks! And it's ok, watch some of my videos where I cover a bunch of games...I keep saying the word great again and again.
Alex thanks for this video. Unfortunately publishers on Kickstarter keep that extra profit and don’t give it back to players as extras
The last game I backed was Isle of Cats, and of course I had to get the expansion as well. I enjoyed the hype and the 'ride', but it had a big price tag and it was annoyingly available for *so much* less later (like half the KS price!) from online stores. I do love the game but lesson learned, I've definitely cooled off KS.
Yes. I love the game and it's fine....but what I paid now vs what could be paid later....it was definitely a disappointment.
I just received my last expansion for Thunderstone Quest in the mail yesterday and I'm not sure if the All-In was a good investment. It's a great game, but it has not seen the table nearly enough to warrant the investment.
@@michaelb8111 FOMO my friend, FOMO.
@@Viragomp LOL it's more contagious than the covid.
Same, I felt a little sick when I saw what he deluxe edition ended up selling for.
Really enjoyed this video and I would have to think is the buyers has to be the main reason. I know my yearly 2 buys 1 is what I consider a reasonable price and the other I am paying more than I should. My biggest pledges have both been AEG, currently Day of Reckoning and previously Thunderstone. I know it is FOMO. I'm torn on adding the metal coins $30 is a lot of money when you have already pledged at the high level, or not I suppose. Thanks for your informative view. I do have a question about Patreon, if I back at the lowest level will I start getting pleas to up my pledge?
Not in the slightest. Haven't done so yet and have no plans to. In general it's a balance between making sure to mention I have a Patreon without overdoing it.
@@BoardGameCo Alex in no way was I making a derogatory statement on the way you do things. I didn't know if Patreon sent out requests like some organizations that once they get some money they keep asking for increases. I truly appreciate your content I have never backed anyone prior.
@@jamestetzlaf5739 All good, I didn't take it as an offensive question at all :)
Thanks for the video! I back some KS games not because they are a great deal but because two other reasons:
1. They are not available at retail in my country (Poland). So I can either get them on KS or I will have to buy them somewhere online later and pay a lot for shipping.
2. Lower shipping cost (mentioned above). Some games after KS are not available at international hubs. You have to order them from publisher. And the cost of shipping from US to Europe, when you include tax and customs is ridiculous. And sometimes you can talk with friends and make a KS group pledge so the shipping cost is divided between for example 10 people. If I buy the game individually afterwards, I would have to pay higher shipping.
But as you said, sometimes I back KS games because of fomo ;) A lot of people talk about abcertain title and the hype gets to me. But luckily having a small child helps to resist that ;) I know I don’t have that much time for games so even though some KS titles look interesting I know I wouldn’t really have time to play them. So It’s a waste of money to buy a game that I wouldn’t even play that much.
Really good video Alex, I've actually learned a few thing in your video, this video is MUCH more important than it may seem. Video topic like this are a big first step for us consumer regaining back some favorable standing. Also, one thing that was not mention in here is, "Paid Reviewer, or Previewer" on KS. This is a cost that was not included in your explanation.
KS paid reviewer are being said they are getting upward to $5000 to hype up a game, people like Rahdo , although is a nice charming guy, and his earlier stuff is genuine and honest. But now he is quickly gaining the reputation for being the #1 hype-man... his video is just all empty calories, which are just bad for us and are actually hurting the KS community
I stopped kicking any big company since 2018, I only seldom kick smaller game which I know for fact it will be impossible to find after... my last kick was a game about Boba tea, Tapiru.
Thanks! And ya, previewers are a tough topic. I should note...it's rare that anyone is getting 5k for a single game, you'd have to roll out the red carpet big time for that.
@@BoardGameCo true, my bad, I may got too dramatic on the 5k claim, I'm pretty sure that's only the most extreme (also, as a Canadian, I meant 5k in Canadian dollar... oops)... anyways, really digging your content, and I've sent this video to a few of my addicted friend, perhaps this may reel them back into reality a little bit (yes, that's you Phil, if you're reading this lol)
When a project splits their original design into 50 different parts, then offer them back as "stretch goals" and "unlocked freebies" ... WOW! What a great deal!
When a project presents itself with 100% integrity while offering almost zero stretch goals, oooohh boy... time to eject before you're caught in the blazing s***tstorm.
Yes. It's a game. No question there.
To be fair, stretch goals which are just cosmetics and increased production quality are okay. Like having plastic tokens instead of cardboard ones, or more fancy dice, or pre-painted minis
I've only backed one game; the infamous Exploding Kittens. I've found it to be a great game between games, kids love it, and they ran their campaign in a way I was just buzzing in glee.
A humorous aside, they promised a mystery bonus as a thank you for it being so ridiculously successful. I knew some other backers and we were abuzz. The game came on the same day. So when we opened it and the game box meowed at us we had to ask each other if we were hearing things. My niece, who was excited over it, just started giggling. I closed the box and opened it again just for more meows and giggling.
Lol that's awesome, I never heard that :)
@@BoardGameCo Man, it was pretty much a party for the backers. They sent us sketches for the hell of it, they took some of that money that was pure profit and held pizza parties at animal shelters to get animals adopted, at one point the stretch goals were no longer money triggered but challenges. As much as people have criticized, and they should because everything is open to criticism, the whole thing felt good ultimately to take part in.
Man, the stretch goals thing.
One particular example that comes to mind for me is the Shadow Tactics boardgame KS which I pledged on. They ended up adding a Solo-mode stretch goal due to backers whining in the comments and as the solo mode was not actually something they'd planned it's set back the whole development of the game by months :-/
Lately I've been backing more smaller projects from first-time creators because I'm more interested in seeing if a new creator can produce something great than I am in lining CMONs coffers :-)
Ya, that can happen. Same with MD, the original campaign mode was tacked on and ended up with the game getting a lot of backlash.
The best thing about FOMO is that I can buy second hand KS games by a fraction of the price less than a year after release, please people keep wasting your money on KS bonanza, those like me appreciate your lack of financial selfcare.
Hey Alex :) I'm Alex!
Good point with CMON. Buying any of their games on retail is throwing your money to the bin. You either jump on their KS or forget that game exists.
Most of the time yes.
I pre-ordered kickstarter editions with full contents of the new Aliens board game and Altar quest incl. the Fantasy box, and I really think the price is fair enough considering the ammount of stuff that are included.
Started on this boardgames life very late, and only now started building my collections. Couple months ago heard about games on KS and to be honest, I cannot see the appeal to it. The prices seemed always so damn high. And when I found out that the shipping cost were not included ( and after seeing some of those costs) I was like, this is completely nuts.
I get the “ let’s support the small publishers and so on” but from the economic perspective, it looks that the money is not well spent when I can just buy it a couple months later whithout paying shipping. The most relevant fact is indeed FOMO. The willingness of people to buy into this is what makes the price of the games higher and higher without any other important reason.
I do not agree with everything, but mostly I see the FOMO and hype from Beaty add ons and sparky shinny stretch goals..
Great video btw
Thanks. Not to scare you but I was right there with you the first 5 years in the hobby. Then the last 2 or 3 I got addicted.
I got into board gaming a little over a year ago, and when I get into something I get into it heavily, I only discovered Kickstarter about 3 months after and for me it was just great window shopping and purchasing things I liked, I didn't really think of the money because in my head I was like well its money I won't spend later, but then more and more exciting things came up and I feel in the trap of liking everything, now I've received a couple of games and some a really good and some are just ok, and now I'm backing off see what things I've purchased that really are good then I can make better choices in the future. Kickstarter its easy to fall into the hype train, with all the videos. pictures, daily unlock's, and I completely agree with the statement with what I'm trying to do now, would I purchase this game if I was at my FLGS, and looking back I would have definitely not purchased some of my Kickstarter, so fingers crossed to those working out and more knowledge moving forward
100%. One of the reasons Kickstarter keeps being able to do what it's doing, is that the money you spend today doesn't even have the possibility of being followed by regret for a year. Until you've started to receive some games and started to be let down and realized they were just another game. That basically means that Kickstarter can get a lot of money out of one person before they start slowly turning off that faucet.
I think late pledges, even through a pledge manager, add a ton of profitability for some KS campaigns. All of a sudden they are only losing a tiny piece for each late pledge
For sure, although there still is a price there, but it's less than the 10% of KS.
I've gotten some great deals in the past - Root and Stockpile, for example - but there are definitely fewer these days, especially with UK shipping and customs taken into account.
In the last year or so I think I've pretty much only backed RPG PDFs, very small games or expansions, and a couple of projects that explicitly aren't going to get general retail releases.
Yes, good deals still exist and will still exist there's no question about that. At the same time the amount of games have exploded whereas the amount of deals has stayed roughly the same or even less.
I agree with this video and it makes me feel bad about myself. THANKS! I know a lot of the games on my list are, "I don't want to miss out on this." Thinking it's cheaper than it would be at retail. I would say a few are, "Yeah this game looks cool...I'll help this person out." I just bought a folding Japanese toy because I thought the guy running the campaign was super sweet and the toys were cute. Do I want one? Sure-ish. But really I wanted to help him out.
I'd ask for the link but I'm afraid.....
Great points. I'm interested in massive darkness 2 but never played it before. Not sure I would pay £100 for the game in a shop so why am I considering it here?? Also I'm not into the extras so even less sense for me lol
If you don't want the extras, then retail is the way to go.
Really interesting video! I think we should also not forget about the recent closing of the taxation loophole for US companies delivering to the EU. Having to pay 19% extra on top of the already inflated prices along with the extreme shipping costs (and even additional tax for the shipping costs) the US kickstarter campaigns got so ridiculously expensive for EU backers that I think only people with real addiction issues and FOMO will keep backing from here. Especially, if the most companies do not provide a valid reason to back their games on kickstarter as you mentioned in the video. After having a campaign where the VAT was added as somewhat of a surprise in the PM I have backed exclusively EU campaigns and I will stay away from any US-based campaign. I am pretty sure I am not the only one - just looking at the comments/uproad in the latest Tine Epic kickstarter I saw a lot of confused disappointed backers.
I am interested to see how this will change the marketing, targeting and overall support KS campaigns will get from EU. In the end it may put all our FLGS and local publishers in a better position, which may not be a bad thing afterall. It is just a shame for small publishers whose success could depend on this missing EU-support.
Ive found 2 shifts have happened on kickstarter lately. 1 is that companies are offering daily unlocks instead of stretch goals. My answer to that is that i now only back for $1. My credit card doesnt get hit straight away and the company will owe less money to kickstarter as a percentage. The 2nd thing I've noticed is games not offering anything at all other than maybe a cheaper product now. Living in Australia means that the exchange rate and shipping kills any chance of it actually being cheaper on kickstarter. I will 100% buy Frosthaven one day and i think Isaac Childres is a legend. But there was no reason to back the kickstarter at all. That money i would have spent will stay in my account for a year and a half and I will buy it on special from a store one day.
Yep, in general putting a dollar in the pledge manager is a good idea... With caveats. That's definitely a video I want to create.
What’s your opinion about GameCrafter?
I believe when you factor in shipping, especially outside of the US, no Kickstarter game is what I would call a good deal. That said, it's about getting product that you might not be able to get in retail, whether stretch goals or the entire game. And that's how we rationalize value for money spent.
Yep. I wanted frosthaven but with the cost of shipping plus possible customs issues - I might as well buy from my flgs and save myself the stress
I've only backed one kickstarter. I was afraid I was going to become addicted to it, but honestly I'm not even hooked. The kickstarter I backed is doing horrendous, it's been delayed beyond comprehension.
Then, most kickstarters are just a pile of boxes with so many gray boring minis.
Three things I'm interested in: good gameplay, amazing art, relative small box.
Lol, having a bad experience like that will help with the addiction :)
All Kickstarters are delayed beyond comprehension.
I agree w/ what you are saying Alex. KS was originally designed to help get a product published that wouldn't otherwise. Unfortunately, it's become a way for established companies to test the market on projects they'd like to launch so that they don't have to publish the game if they don't like the results (one reason a campaign will be cancelled). The creators of KS don't care about backers, and they allow these practices to continue because they get 10% regardless. They'll also allow campaigns to be launched by people who haven't fulfilled previous campaigns, but that's another show. *chuckles*
Yep, definitely true.
I've actually had the opposite experience in recent times with regards to kickstarter value. I've come across several games that were kickstarted and I look at the price they went for (some had KS exclusives and some didn't) and they end up being somewhere between more expensive to considerably more expensive in the after market (eBay etc.) or directly from the publisher. It might be partly due to availability, but its really making me wish I had noticed those kickstarters at that time so I could have gotten a much better deal.
Those will always exist for sure, I'm referring to the category as a whole. Which did you find?
Any examples?
Grim hollow,kingdoms and warfare, and stubbles codes of companions are a bunch of chads in the kickstarter market.
Cool thanks!
I think your point #4 is the biggest factor. Basic economics: supply & demand. People (especially Americans) have more disposable income. Sellers are clearly going to note and take advantage of this. It's much like housing - sellers look at comps and make their best guess what they can sell theirs for.
💯
The market will correct in time. But not soon - I think there's a way to go yet...
A long ways. People have to continuously be burned for this to self correct.
I have to say the information you presented here gives a lot for thought. I know I have backed some kickstarters because my FLGS cannot get it. Some I have backed partially because I will get the non kickstarter exclusive content at my FLGS. Frosthaven is an example of this. There is some content on the kickstarter that cannot be acquired any other way. I did ask my FLGS what from the kickstarter they can get and I will be picking that up through them.
Yep, I'm not against backing....if there's a reason to back by all means do so. Rather I'm pushing back against Kickstarter as a method to shift all risk to consumers with no reward in return.
@@BoardGameCo I understand that is what you are trying to inform people of. I actually appreciate that there are people like you who are voicing what others are thinking
At the end of the day many of us straddle the line of being both the creator and victim of this predicament often due to the attitude of "do as I say..not as I do" (myself included). But more importantly Alex I gotta ask, did you happen to back or not back Wasteland Knights 2nd edition (just curious since there is still an opportunity to get in on it.
I didn't but it's on my radar to do a video on it :)
"And as long as we are buying games at FOMO prices that we would never pay in store, we incentivize the continuation of this practice." That's key. Thanks for this guideline. I'll try to stick to it.
Yes! Sadly I'm guilty of it as well although I tried to minimize it as much as possible. Some games offer premium components that are worthy of the price they are asking. Others don't.
@@BoardGameCo But then there's also the thing where you are 'forced' to buy these premium components while you don't think they are necessary. I'm thinking to the Oath campaign by Leder Games where it was either the game with the heavy shiny metal coins and the journal, or nothing at all. Sure, the final product has a good value for what you get, but in the end you still pay for and get a bunch of things you never wanted...
I have no shelf space for MD2.0 but I am definitely hyped / intrigued based solely on the amount of fun I've had with C:DMD and Zombicide. Time to move I guess!
Or sell other games....either works :)
The deals with KS come with exclusives and deluxe editions that aren’t released at retail. They’re still ridiculously expensive compared to retail editions of games later released for a much cheaper price, but I find the deluxe editions retain their value well (and often I can resell for a higher price even after I play the game 10+ times). I sold my used Dinosaur Island + Totally Liquid deluxe editions for $40 more than I paid for, my used deluxe does Gentes for $10 more than I paid for, and my used 7th Continent for $20 more than I paid for. I would never, ever back a KS that’s a retail edition that will later be released, even for games I love like Paladins of the West Kingdom. KS shipping alone ruins any “deals” offered via ks for retail editions.
I find that the retail version of a lot of KS games just suck in comparison. It's clear that most KS offer significant quality upgrades that don't transcend to the retail editions.
WhiteHawktriple7 Agreed for the most part, especially when speaking about companies like CMON. When that’s the case, I either back the KS or don’t buy the game at all.
As a KS Super Backer, I am inclined to agree with you. I used to back games all the time, but I have become much more selective and now would rather pick up the game at my FLGS or at an online seller. The value is just not there, the normal KS exclusive is rarely of value and I play so many games, I never have time for the include expansion. Overall I am not sure it is a good deal for me. Thanks for the video
Yep, still gems to be had, but less frequent.
Excellent topic. In the end it's all about the extra content. I actually hate that aspect of Kickstarters these days. I always see comments 'No stretch goals?!?!? Not backing". This is where the perceived 'value' is to the consumer. Many backers like exclusives. They feel that they justify the fact that they get all this content while others late to the party, don't.
I look at the recent CMON collaboration, Marvel United, and all those exclusive minis and some expansions (Typical of CMON though). That's dangling the carrot IMO and any consumer that doesn't know about all this exclusive content will miss out as they won't be available to get it later on down the road. Especially those that first discover the game and enjoy it quite a bit and would like to get more content. I'm usually in that category. I feel left out of some interesting content that could give variety a game I really enjoy. It irks me to no end. I may be in the minority here but that's how I feel. If they were available at a later time that's ok. Those that backed to get the content get it for free while other pay extra for it. Why not go this route? Entitlement for those that backed for 'Exclusives' I guess. 'I backed so now one else should be able to get it.' Yeah likely for those that want to sell it for their own profit I guess.
Thanks for the vid.
100% agree. I agree there are problems with exclusives but that was less my topic today....that being said....time for another topic to make its way on my schedule :)
Question, How can consumers miss out on content they don't know exists?
If you buy a game and like it, you most likely try to find out more. And the you hear that there actually is extra content. You just can not get it anywhere...
Great, great video, Alex.
Personally I have been very picky with Kickstarter campaigns. Mainly because I didn't want to punch a huge hole in my wallet.
Aside from that - you had very valid and insughtful points.
Thank you and Shavu'a tov! ;)
Shavua tov :) and agreed....I try to b be picky but still end up with a few a month
@@BoardGameCo
Haha. Yeah, my friends are also adding a few new titles to their collection every month. Overall, I've only backed 4 games XD (KDM, Robin hood, Monikers and On Mars)
Btw, you're more than welcome to check out my channel as well :)
I'm surprised awaken realms is able to sell their stuff in retail. I found the Nemesis base game barely has content to demand the $100 retail price tag. Also feels bad when their kickstarter barely costs most than retail.
Yep, people will still buy....but a lot less will, and they'll get a lot lees.
I think some Awakened Realms games would sell well in retail. I went in on Tainted Grail and I am on the Facebook page for it. There are posts fairly often asking about if/when it will go to retail or of people are selling their copies.
Well I will say the msrp of games is practically $80 to start with these days and riding the marketing/awareness of a successful kickstarter game can make the higher price tag an option. Adam talks about protecting the MSRP but missed mentioning the pledge amount is the msrp for kickstarter games. Going to retail with an inflated msrp and half the content protects the value of the next kickstarter. See Lockdown for an example - higher price, less content than Nemesis. But when compared to the retail of just the core Nemesis box - what a deal!
The best deal i have seen on kickstarter is the Tainted Grail sundrop pledge, three campaign boxes for around $120 shipped.
Solid choice 👌
I also think companies have gotten better at gauging/squeezing SGs. Before many companies went crazy because they though their campaign needed that push or they miscalculated (my beloved first KS: Shadows of Brimstone).
But as tame has gone by publishers have learned to space-out, calculate or even divide stretch goals so they (publishers) don't "lose"money (after the first Shadows of Brimstone the Forbidden Fortress KS seemed more sparce but, to my mind, better planned).
Very possibly. That goes to reason 4 ... The more people back at Kickstarter that doesn't give you a reason to, the more you will see Kickstarters that don't give a reason to back.
What do you think about hate from cmon?
CMON always delivers a great value :)
Interesting. Things is some, hell all of these massive games with tons of content aren't seen in stores normally. I could only imagine how much more the store would charge? I have a FLGS that does a good job of getting some KS's in the store and they jack that price up.
Oh for sure, the larger ones only show up on ks.
No one delves into the ECON of the hobby like you do. It’s your niche.
Thanks!
King of Average
Nice Niche
My big problem is I live in Israel and shipping prices have gone nuts. Awaken Realms has a very nice deal where they ship it inexpensively but very slowly. I'll gladly wait another 2 months and save $80 on shipping. Chip Theory had an amazing deal of $50 for shipping anything worldwide. I may have gone a little overboard....
Oh man, international shipping can kill. I grew up in Canada and even that was tough.
Video game kickstarters can be worse: Even if we ignore the one-man projects that take years and years (if they ever deliver), the lower prices offered to the backers pale next to a nearly inevitable 90% Steam sale price. Though you do perhaps get to follow along in the development - the Battletech project had quite a few demo play videos from the devs during the development process, for instance.
Yep, the non-physical price of video games will always make the eventual discounts a problem.
Another very relevant point is the certainty of demand, kickstarter should be cheaper just for the fact that its a guaranteed sale, instead of the uncertainty of a tradicional sale
Yes, agreed.
A lot of company use ks just to sell easier game and most important the shipping cost is becoming insane
Yep, and people keep backing :)
BoardGameCo yeah I’m the first one lol lol lol
My excuse is usually related to language/location (getting copies in English while in Germany). But I did get some games on online stores recently and altho I haven't received anything yet, at least the price was good.
Funny part, the lack of information over delivery is almost the same, I got like 5 titles and know very little about when they will deliver xD
Oohh fun, what games?
@@BoardGameCo Jaws of the Lion, Roll Player with 2 expansions, Cartographers and King's Dilemma.
On another happy note, I got my first deliver of a KS project today: MicroCity
No mention of taxes? I think this area has gained a lot of "clarity" in recent years and now you regularly see campaigns marked with x-area is "shipping friendly" (in reality the publisher pays the tax for you).
I really need to add that as a regular topic point. It started becoming more and more of a thing this year and I haven't mentally integrated it into what I look for...although I should.
On the other hand, at least for France, I'm pretty sure there is no VAT for these KS products, which you would pay in retail, so all in all, it compensates.
@@zerbique3500 all the goods will be vatable even if some are under the threshold (I.e. the vat is £0), but it will be paid for by the shipping company as they are the importer and you are the end user. This is why you have shipping friendly campaigns- they sort the tax out for you.
@@rodneyaudley2980 I understood that. My point is that the total price (pledge+shipping) includes a 'VAT' share, whether it's in Retail or through KS. But it makes no difference -the KS price accounts for it. The publisher does not make charity when it 'pays it for you'. It would be the same as saying that the retailer 'pays the tax' for you in retail, because they sell a game at a price which already accounts for the VAT (maybe the situation is different in the US). It's just one of the multiple price components that is part of the total (an incompressible one though as greater bulks of game don't reduce it for each individual game).
The video could account for it, but it wouldn't change the main message. There remain more price components in retail than on KS, and this difference is seldom reflected through the KS pledge value.
Several games launched just this week that I really want to back but the price tags are just beyond crazy :(
I found myself not backing because of price more and more. Plus VAT is becoming more common adding insult to injury.
KS is making a lot less sense for many of the games appearing.
Yep, still some definite gems....but they're few and far.
@@BoardGameCo yep really sucks when a game checks all the boxes but have to pass based on price
There is also the thought of paying more to get it early. I see this video games. If you want the new shiny you pay more when it comes out. If you wait for a year you can usually get it at a discounted rate. The same seems to be true with some Kickstarter games. I have been enjoying Isle of Cats for over 6 months now and my local game shop has this on preorder for the fall. I have no regrets about my purchase. This is something to try to keep in mind when I see a new shiny game though but it sure is difficult.
💯 I usually mention this briefly but not a value to me personally. I have too many games I'm not playing already.
Same here... does not matter when I get the game. I have enough games to not buy new newer again... and I know that I am gonna buy something new in the future in anyway.
Nothing wrong in that though, but not value to me.