Can a 20 Year Old Amp Beat a New £1000 Amp?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ม.ค. 2025
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I would always recommend listening to the sound tests through headphones. If you listen through your own systems speakers, you will hear reflections points from my room and your room, potentially causing an inaccurate interpretation of the test.
@@UTILITARIANTVUK Understandable, but I do the vast majority of my listening through speakers in the living room. (I'm not an audiophile, more of an auddiophillistine!). The listening experience is completely different through heaphones, (I have several over ear sets of various brands and ages), and each headset has its own characteristics too. My preferred set is the rather ancient Koss HV1 on-ear which are a bit tatty, but I haven't found any other on-ear 'phones I like nearly as much, even at several £100s. Over ear phone preference are a pair of shabby but great sounding Koss Pro 4AAs, which need a little bit of "damaged cable" attention!
I'm in total agreement with you. The slight differences that you heard, is exactly what I heard, Great comparison!
My mother had an old Leak valve amp. It sounded stunning.
The Leak uses LM3886 chipamps. They are one of the highest spec class AB chips you can get, and because they are very linear, often make discrete amps seem a bit too "coloured" in comparison. They can also sound a bit cold and sterile but the preamp section can be designed to overcome that. Also, Leak are owned by IAG... They make Quad, Wharfedale, Audiolab and others. Their products are really high quality from my experience (Evo 4.3 speakers). I can guarantee that the Leak will outlast others like Cambridge Audio.
I quite liked my Leak Stereo 130 while i had it but it was truly humbled by the cheaper Musical Fidelity M2Si for sound quality whose amplification section is considerably better sounding and capable at the cost of feature set. The 230 has some stiff competition at its price point too bit at least its power supply isnt the weakling effort of the 130 which with 87db Wharfedale Evo 4.1 had major struggles. It was better with the 89db 4ohm minimum Focal Chora standmounts but is still easily bested by the M2Si
@@tomwebb7091 Interesting stuff regarding the power supply - there's no replacement for displacement (i.e. good power amps are heavy!). I've heard nothing but good things about Musical Fidelity amps. Hope to hear one some day. My Evo 4.3's are also power hungry things too. I use a DIY Rod Elliott P101 configured for 140 watts into 4 ohm. Modern speakers are demanding:)
On my laptop speakers only it was remarkable how much cleaner and crispier the highs were coming from the Leak compared to the Pioneer...
I don't know how my over 20 year old amp would perform. It was €1500 back in the days and I still love it. It's a Sony ES type, weights a ton and is still in perfect condition.
Your Sony ES type is a fantastic amplifier! One of the best ever made!
I love videos like this. For me the Leak had more air and a deeper bass.
Nailed it....The bass is a little "tighter" for me on the Leak and the highs are presented differently on newer gear (to my ears through my planar cans)
Pioneer has always had that "fun" sound, paired with some HE Klipsch, Vegas, etc. You have a killer rockin system. The leek is more refined, much like any good audiophile amp. Both have their place and a good piece of kit for the intended market.
The Rotel A11 Tribute is a modern amp with a ‘Loudness’ feature for low volume listening. (It’s called boost)
I have the Rotel A11 Tribute hooked up to a pair of Monitor Audio Bronze 50 speakers. My cd player is connected to the amp via a Topping E30 dac.
Interesting. How do you use it? And any idea what the 'Max' function is for? Cheers
Me too, Root Mean Square as an amp measurement every day of the week, always used to be like that years ago. B for me, piano sounded more natural, but as you say not night and day. But wow just goes to show how good that pioneer is.
4:31 Traduzione italiano
Nice vintage Pioneer stack. With a black marker, the scratch will be almost gone.
I have a Sharpie at the ready!
1995 ARCAM Alpha 5 cd player 2005 ROTEL RA-02 Amp 1994 Mission 780se speakers and 2012 Denon headphones. Love my old HI-FI.
@@jameswade4097 nice set up that. I have found Rotel and Mission to be a good pairing.
@@AlexMitchell-i1g definitely! I had a pair of Mission 760i back in the days powered by a Rotel amp (can't remember the model) and they worked really well together. I need to find a good match to my current Mission LX-2 MKII though.
@mafcarvalho I have the original 760, really like them. I did have a Rotel RA 820AX and 930AX and regret parting with both. Have to get one of them again, not expensive on ebay. Maybe you had one of those two, they reviewed really well back in late 80s - early 90s by Hifi Choice magazine. I found a website that has loads of pdf versions of back catalogue of Hifi Choice, I spent hours going through the old reviews.
@@AlexMitchell-i1g I just checked both models you mentioned and it was the RA-930AX that I owned. It was a great amp. I sold it in order to reduce costs on a Yamaha AVR, Mission center & surround speakers and a Yamaha subwoofer. I wish I had kept it well stored...
@mafcarvalho I had that same amp, when I got back into hifi in 2021, I bought that amp and a pair of Mission Model 70 mk2 speakers, both very cheap. I sold them both and regret it. I didn't know I had budget hifi gold as I kept chasing for some other nonsense and didn't get it. I think I need to be spending at least 4x the amount (maybe some Quad and Tannoy) to up the game a bit more!
As I said, Mission and Rotel ( and some NAD too) are a really good pairing!
I just gave this amplifier to a friend in need..it always sounded very good. Loudness was brilliant 😊
Very generous! 💪
Really like the blind listen in your video. I was surprised that I liked the stereo 20 more for the tighter bass and more subtle mids. More blind tests please
For my ears, the Leak had a bit fuller/richer sound, while the Pioneer was a bit forward and lighter. I think that could be reconciled using an EQ. Even streaming through a WIIM mini would help with that.
I have two AB amps and two Class Ds. It all depends on the application. For watching tv and listening to music in my office or in my bedroom, the class Ds are perfect (I use an old blueray player for music in my bedroom-sounds much better than you'd expect) But, for a good phono session, it's gotta be either my Sony or Denon class A/Bs or if I'm in the great room. My components all seem to like my Denon best. It's even an old one that weights about 25kg (really weighs about 12kg- 26 lbs in US).
Re banana plugs. Some of the older Pioneer amps have little plastic inserts in the top of the sockets which need to be removed before you can fit the banana plug in. I can't see from the picture if yours has these or not, it might be worth go, with a dart / needle ?
Brilliant HI FI Channel!
Thank you!
@@UTILITARIANTVUK Thank you Sir!
I might have missed you explaining this, but were both amps set at "flat" tone position, or "direct" (for the pioneer)?
I have a selection of budget an mid-range amps (all more than 10 years old) including a Leak Delta 30 (50+ years old and still in working order) a couple of Yamaha receivers, a Rotel.......
Anyway, what i have found is that the "direct" setting, on the amps that have it, is cleaner than just setting the tone knobs to "flat" BUT it seems to remove a small amount of mid range at the same time. Maybe thats how it's supposed to work, but it makes vocals sound too "in amongst" for my liking.
Also I notice that bass is more controlled by the Rotel than any of my other amps, when not in the "flat" state on all the amps..
.....and similarly the old Leak has the clearest highs and midrange, but the bass can be a bit muddy.
I only have 3 sets of speakers (also probably past their best before date) but the effect is very similar with each...(Wharfedale Linton 2(!) Gale 4i (?!) and a more expensive recent but not especially good pair of Tannoys that I cant remember the model name of (currently relegated to the "office".
Conclusion.......I find it very difficult to judge between "better" and "not so good" because small tweaks to the tone controls can change the likeability of the sound of components significantly.
Or maybe I should get my ears fixed!
Direct mode was used on both amps.
Well,here on the continent the Leak is about 1,5k€ . The Pioneer was around 0,25k€ up untill 2012 which
realy doesnt make this peace "vintage" but just old. Anyway,the Leak comes with a good DAC and
a pretty decent phonostage inbuild and features fairly modern Class D poweramps based on ST Micro TDA7293
chips.
Its a timely all in one package truthful do the old Integrated amplifier concept. No need for half a dozen tiny
boxes and their "cabeling".....
On the other side the Pioneer is a barebones low budget integrated (for its time),mostly sold with a complete
"rack-system" back in the day. It inherited some class-typical flaws (cheap lytics in the signalpath for example)
that deminishes the max possible soundquality. A experienced DIYer certainly could upgrade this little amp in
a way that is runs circles soundwise around the Leak.
Personaly i find the Leak a bit on the expensive side for what you get. Despite factoring in that it is a convenient
and conceptual clean solution in a retro finish.
Just my 2 cents.
I have a 207 and it works very well. I can tell the difference between direct and non direct, because I can listen to interferences with my headphones when direct is off. It even picks up noise when I turn my CD player on. I've been always annoyed by the A and B position of speakers connectors in the back as well. I don't like the phono input; it's not that I play a lot of vinyl records, but I prefer to use my Behringer UFO202 as a phono preamp and a free line input on the Pioneer.
It was only yesterday I was selling mine for 50 quid, and I cancelled it because I was thinking it's a good amp. So, I'm glad you've done this video today. Now I know it's not miles away from a modern amp. I've noticed a bit more treble in the Pioneer. loudness in this amp is fantastic, not so good as a variable loudness from Yamaha in my opinion, but very useful.
Technics SU-VX800 my all time fav. !
nice one, i alway for full size audio gear then some small class D amps. i do have 9 amplifiers and Pioneer A-400 fully resored and recaped, such a lovely amp. Pioneer is a good audio brand, they did lots of amazing product and some very high end.
Same here .Still i own A400 and it sound great. But inw of my fav old amps i. Kenwood Ka 4002 which is fully recap.
The B Leek bass had a little more 'bloom'. Personally, I would re-cap the power supply. I'll take it!
Yes I prefer RMS ratings as long as it’s both channels driven at 8 ohms and 4 ohms across 20Hz - 20KHz at an acceptable level of THD.
100W RMS at 10% THD at 1KHz one channel driven wouldn’t be very good. Whereas 100W at 0.005% THD both channels driven 20Hz - 20KHz would be very good.
Peak power can be useful as long as it is again at reasonable distortion levels say no more than 1% THD.
to me the leak sounded less stressed and cleaner.
B plays slightly louder, so it sounds better. Very good comparism.
I agree B seems louder to me. Sounds better by default in that case.
@@michaelb9664 right 👍
Definitely with you on RMS. Remember in the 80s (I don't know your age sorry) and boomboxes manufacturers would boldly claim "100W Peak Power!" On a sticker on the front, then you found out it was actually more like 10 watts RMS per channel. That's if you were lucky!
I'm definitely old enough to even remember the 70s.😊
"Music Power" was also used to mislead the public as to the true output wattage.
@montynorth3009 ah ok, even back then! I remember definitely in the 80s as I was a kid back then. I had an Hitachi boombox in 1990 that claimed "100 watts of power". Turns out it was more like 12 watts per channel which is still decent.
I own/run a hifi shop - with so much kit to hand -- one can actually compare "restored" 50 year old Audio that makes quite a lot of high price point modern era seem vapid in some cases; as some of the older designs are more competent, holding a lot more stored energy... much of the modern era is built to a price. In amplifiers Damping factor is also important. And you're spot on ... RMS = V (output volts) squared divided by "Z" impedance is the best standard that allows direct 1v1 comparisons and the only measurement to use when measuring performance on the bench.
Out of the amps you've restored, which is your favourite, if you have one?
Oooooh... too many to list... In context with your video check out the SU3500 Technics from 1976 ... with its low noise preamplifier, highly precise output stage fed by a well regulated power supply, giving it a damping factor of a full 100 ...that'll give most modern amplifiers in the £2000 price bracket a black eye.
Thanks, I'll check it out. Some great restorations on your channel. Maybe you could give Mend It Mark a run for his money? 😄
Based on a Kicker Audio engineer's comments amp damping factor importance is over-rated as it's dwarfed by the importance of the speaker tranducer motors design.
@@dwaynepiper3261it’s also heavily affected by speaker cable impedance which cannot be worked around. In reality it’s not usually more than 100 regardless of amplifier rating.
On Leak the mid frequencies are slightly more pronounced and it sounds more voluminous.
Depends on the mass and applied force.😊
Even listening to some "fair" speakers running off of my computer, the Leak sounded more open to me. Percussion instruments especially came forward compared to the Pioneer. In the U.S. we used to have the FTC power ratings as a requirement. (Federal Trade Commission.) They were X-watts per channel, both channels driven into 8 ohms (and/or 4 ohms) at x- % distortion. Don't know why manufacturers are not all using that anymore.
A sounded a bit more compressed to my ears. But i doubt hardly anyone would give a shit really an amp is an amp it works adequately or it doesn't. It would probably make someones day.
La verdad es que apenas hay diferencias entre los dos
Il faudrait comparer ce qui est comparable, le Pioneer ne coûtait pas 1000£ à sa sortie, c'était un appareil bon marché, à environ 200£. En plus, les composants internes ont dû bien vieillir, surtout les condensateurs, ce qui doit réellement changer sa signature sonore.
I Didn't know Leak Was Still Being Made, I Bought A 3400 Back In 77, Still Going Strong! Also A Leak 3001 Record Deck, Apart From The Strobe Light No Longer Working its fine..
Always makes me worried these comparisons that my ears will play tricks on me, thankfully I got it right, Great video but I do think the leak has better separation and the Pioneer was a little muddy listening through headphones, incredible how close it was considering the price difference and age between the units though, For me I think its worth the difference in price but like you said you can get a great system on a budget with some vintage gear
If hook up 2 quality amps of equal power that are fully functionible to the same speakers I doubt u would hear any appreciable difference in a a/b blind test at the same db level.
Nice to see you looking at “real” hifi and stereos (in my opinion). Lol. Rather than those tiny boxes from across the planet. Cheers. Dave.
Definately every amp should be RMS rated, for me this the only true volume level format, all the others that were brought in, was to try and con you, when I was looking to buy a new amp, that was the first thing I looked for. volume rated at such and such RMS watts, if that wasn't there, no more looking at that amplifiyer.
I am pleased to report, because I know you swear by your Leak, that it sounded more detailed than the Pioneer.
What is the line out voltage of your CD player? The pioneer has an input sensitivity of 200mv line in. The leak is 550mv line in sensitivity. So not 100% apples to apples. If the voltage is too high will hurt the pioneer more possibly clipping earlier. Most people never consider if the source and amp voltage are matched properly when mixing brand of components.
The CD player will have an output of 2V but that doesn’t mean clipping will occur in the pre amp, it means the power amp will be driven into clipping very early on on the pre amp volume dial.
Neither of these amps were clipping.
@@michaelb9664 You know no clipping distortion was happening how? 2V and 200mv is a large signal difference and attenuation requirement. I am not an expert but such a large signal difference Would suggest to me that the system is not going to perform as optimally designed. How does it affect dynamic range?
Hi ! thank you very much for this great comparison Imho the Pioneer sounds more musical
However the max power consumption for the two amps is very different 150VA for the Pioneer and 350VA for the Leak
I guess the Leak must have a great power supply This is usually a very good thing to have
Anyway I am a little on DIY and i have a strong feeling that with some little mods the Pioneer could sound even better
1) replace the infamous speaker outs with some decent quality like those found on the Leak (they seem much bett
2) connect the new speakers out with speaker wires soldered directly on the amp board
3) better and higher current rectifying diodes and bigger and better supply caps
The idea is that the current must flow unimpeded both the supply current and the current to speakers This should provide a better sense of effortlessness to the sound
Music is a flow Let the music flow
Thanks again and kind regards gino
in many amps you need to remove a small dust cap in the speakerterminals before using banana plugs ;-)
No caps on this one. 🤷♀️
@@UTILITARIANTVUK did you remove the red plastic to se if you can remove the metal part inside the plug?
An amp could be measured in RMS or average power ormusic power. It doesn't say a whole lot without the impedance its driving. The amp requires power from the power supply to give the transistors the juice theyneedto supply current. Pwer is voltage times current but using sin and cosin to extract the exact power going to the speaker because some is lost when current leads voltage or visa versa. In a DC cct its straight up math so the power rating is useless unless you factor in the speakers impedance at given power.
Everytime you show off your Pioneer equipment, I watch with a gleem in my eye & a little jealousy in my heart. 🥹 As far as your "Leak"... I don't give a shit what every Tom, Dick or Harry has to say about Pioneer, I personality prefer Pioneer! Awesomely great show buddy! 💯
I wonder what % of amplifier owners actually use both A and B speakers option?
I preferred the Pioneer slightly over the Leak but really close. The Leak seemed thinner sound and the pioneer more robust lower end and clarity. I have a Pioneer AV receiver from about 2004 with mosfet transistors class AB and another Pioneer from 2008 with BJT in double Darlington configuration class AB. I am happy with both however the BJT has more power/current capability but I prefer the sound of the mosfet slightly more. I assume this pioneer A-307 is mosfet class AB maybe why I preferred it to the Leak. Pioneer was always at fore front of different tech in the search for great sound at reasonable price and value until they got bought due to financial hardship. Mosfet amps are not common now because the transistor are not widely available for audio applications since higher demand for them in other areas. The mosfet in my Pioneer was a IC manufactured specifically by pioneer and not off the self component. The BJT are popular component manufactured by Tosihiba used in many other brands but the Darlington configuration is not common. I also have another brand amp with Toshiba BJT in triple Darlington configuration and sounds very much like the Pioneer with BJT.
RMS always, yes 👍
Old days they tried to be perfect, Now days they try to produce things cheaply and try to sell lot of money.
Great Pioneer stack you got there!
Imo RMS is the only accurate way of measuring power. Why should we rely on amps showing a gazillion watts peak when in the end they can only produce a reduced amount of true power. It's like the Megapixel war on cameras, completely useless.
More clarity with the Leak. I have to say both sounded a bit boggy in the bass.
I recall buying my first hi-fi systems in the 80s when I was told by the dealership, who seemed truly committed and honest, that Japanese equipment was impacted by Japanese culture and the form of music that was Japanese. Writing this today, maybe this teeters on racist? I don't know, and apologies if anybody is offended. However, I wondered if any other long termers in this hobby felt that equipment reflected the musical culture of its origin?
The Leak 230 has a lot more bass and treble clarity. I don't think it was even close
The older seems to be better. That have less smt solder joints in them.And more pth solder joints. And no ic in them.
Do you know what the price of the Pioneer was 20 years ago and what it would cost now please taking into account inflation ? TIA
It sold for around £200 so approx. £350 today. However, amplifiers today are relatively expensive compared to 2004 so it would have probably sold for around £450 to £500 today.
@@UTILITARIANTVUK Thanks for the answer.
I picked amp B before you even showed what it was. Leak is better. Listening on Elac dbr62 reference speakers. Thanks for the video.
I changed my mind, the Leak sounds terrible. You should give it to me ha.
A piece of wire with gain.
👍👍👍👍👍
I like your videoos very much, very honest. But I never hear differences if you compare 😅😂 my ears bad? I use eGolden streamer with first class DAC chip ESS. JBL speakers, Xiaomi TV. Anyway...I keep on watching you.
It's always best to listen through headphones, especially with speaker tests.
I have an Optimus STAV-3400 which is a great amp.. It's a Pioneer board in an Optimus chassis.. To much talk and not enough demonstration between the 2! DACs are a waste of money and time they can actually degrade the sound if the wrong signal is going into them.. Just buy an up-to-date Class H amplifier.. With 2 PBG-18 subs. and 2, 4-ohm Rockville 15.24 towers.. Powered by 2 Rockville RPA-16s class H amps.. Look at the cost and hear the POWER and clarity for peanuts compared to other options out there. Do not be fooled by brand names and all the hype!
Because it is an A/B class that gives a full body to the sound, then the D class Fosi is overpriced. Ayima is cheaper, so you shouldn't expect to use this kind of amp for long. Rotel and Marantz Yamaha would be a good start.
Rms way to go
I hardly notice the differnce ill buy a cheaper amp than that
Hi Marti , I am addicted to your great videos. Thank you ❤
You may have to go to UTV-a-holics anonymous? 😄
Just my ears but the Leek is better at the top end butty
B suena más completo de sonido
I honestly cannot stand the LEAK, in fact I cannot stand any of the old UK brand names that were bought by overseas companies, and are now bringing out overpriced garbage that costs little to make but gets hyped by the magazines and TH-camrs hell bent on licking ass. Mission is another example with it's £299 mdf speaker now fetching £3700 because it looks cool, its a fucking two way average fair you used to get in Richer Sounds and discount stores ffs.
The old Missions, LEAK, NAD too, lots of old great names, and at 1st I thought it was great to see these old designs re-invented, that retro look etc, but the prices and tech inside, to hell with that.
What efforts and attempts have you made to actually hear this gear???
@@nasdkhan254 some of us do visit stores and hifi shows.
When I was visiting a store a few months bac the NAD C3050 and this were the flavour of the day, due to mentioning wanting something for CD and to possibly get a DAC that I could use for streaming as my CD transport died.
I had no interest in the matching CD player as I hate slot drives. I was simply hoping to see what CD transports and matching dacs were available that also allowed streaming and balanced output.
I had no interest in the amps as they sound like Richer Sounds integrateds and I was after a DAC and transport for a second system running a decent pre/power.
Yeah maybe I am being a little unfair, it looks nice, but I think many of these rebrands are maybe a little overpriced simply for the name and UK heritage despite being Chinese. It's basically a 75w mosfet amplifier with a couple of hundred pounds worth of DAC added intenally.
The NAD C3050 rehash is the same, not a lot of performance considering the price. Take away the retro styling and you don't really have a lot over £600/£700 of performance.
Here we see it going against an old amp that was not too expensive in its day, no idea if the old amp has been recapped or serviced considering the age.
For less outlay you could buy far more performance without the good looks though. Topping DAC or Wiim Ultra with a Hypex Class D power amp would cost near half of that.
You cant hear on here, its pointless. A Leak Stereo 20 will waste the both of them.
Sorry to rain on your parade, but there is no such thing as RMS power. Rms volts x Rms amps = Average power. Look it up.
So there is such a thing as RMS power then. You’ve just answered the question it’s average power.
RMS for amplifiers is quoted as a sustainable continuous average power output. The problem with it is how manufactures tweak the results with frequency and distortion.
Pioneer is junk. All of it. No exceptions. Nothing with that marque has ever had anything worth owning. Next
Doesn’t say much for the Leak.
Thee who knows nothing.
Never trust anyone who places 'next' at the end of a sentence. 😄
By the way, Pioneer is an electronics company. LOL.
Bit of a bold statement! Nothing they have produced in the last 50 years was worth owning?