tldr: suppression good, gunplay bad. the point here is how these changes are polarizing for the community and the implementation feels wonky, good attempt tho "the new infantry overhaul aims to achieve more immersive and longer lasting firefights, and in this venture they have completely succeded. the firefight experience in squad is hands down objectively more engaging and immersive than before and for that i have to give OWI an A+ for their effort In addition their picture in picture graphic effects are stunning and visually the game is looking fantastic I love the direction that squad is going, however, there are a few problems i have regarding the the certain systems used to achive this result." also check out youtube.com/@slorgs video to see the PR players perspective and a better understanding of these changes from that viewpoint th-cam.com/video/9iSLd3DOqfQ/w-d-xo.html
gunplay feels good supression feels good too, youre also trying to compare urself chilling on a range with going to battle and having the risk to die and getting shot back at lolz
@davidknekkerbrood9547 You'd be surprised how well a trained individual can shoot when your life depends on it, also when you play squad you are controlling a soldier not a joe that airsofts on the weekends.
L take. Throughout the video, your stamina was almost non-existent. This is why your weapon is not stable. OWI wants to remove the 'run and gun' meta. Stop running around, pick up your stamina, communicate with your teammates and engage fire when you're ready.
Project reality guy here. Absolutely love the changes. The overall feeling of the firefights and how much it changed the gameplay is insanely better. I saw random people yell "MOVE UP IM COVERING" I ran and for once I didnt immediately get shot in the face (a strange feeling). Teamwork is not essential but its a massive advantage, even if you manage to flank, good luck trying to kill more than a couple of people at close range by yourself. You are also much more dependent on logistics now too. Also agree on the vehicle/infantry balance and the motion blur and the recoil being a bit too much right now but it's all getting fine tuned. Give them some time. Haven't been this hyped for a squad update in a while.
I'm with Nano, mainly because he usually gets shot in front of me first. Plus they could tone down the recoil just a tad, but keep the significant sway and PiP changes. Scoping is hard with 2x + the way it is IRL
The thing is Karma wants to eat a cake and have it too. "modern solution" what solution? you haven't said anything that would actually solve the issue, just that you want it solved. as i see it one has to be sacrificed to get the other one. either gunplay is floaty and clunky to allow prolonged firefights, suppression and fire and maneuvre tactics or its crisp and snappy but then it turns into whackamole of who aims at who first, which is what we currently have. You said it yourself, firefights feel so much better now. You sadly can't have everything at the same time. Sacrifice of gunplay for realistic outcome is a sacrifice i'm willing to take
I think he got bad at the game, got salty... The update isn't even out for the major public to actually evaluate, PLUS, go watch Ukraine war footage, no soldier holds the gun properly, all of them are shitting their pants and documentaries like Korengal (2014) don't show US infantry with stellar shooting form also. This update is GREAT don't change a thing.
do you think the suppression visuals look good? i've heard that getting shot at in real life creates a sort of tunnel vision, but in this squad update they just blurred the entire screen which looks like a step backwards to me
@@sauer3587 the thing is that feeling supressed is not something you visually see, its a mental state, the edge of your eyes dont actually turn dark and you dont see blurry, its just your mind focusing on certain things, ignoring the rest and creating that tunnel vision, which, is literally impossible to achieve in a game, since nobody is actually dying and there is no real risk to getting shot
@@viejitalocaI think the solution they have is fairly good, considering this - it blurs distant objects but keeps your immediate surroundings clear, so it *forces* you as the player to focus on what's immediately around you. They can't give you a specific mental state, but they can force you to act as though you do.
Most of your points are good, but i have one small correction: the bars are NOT the same as in PR. You dont have to look at them, the bullets always go where your muzzle is pointing. So i would say it is in fact a better solution than PR, just overtuned.
Agreed, it’s annoying sometimes in PR when the dots are close enough, or so you think, and your shots don’t land on the guy who is 5m away. I like how squad does it better.
@@karmakut the dots are just a way of measuring how much your weapon will be swaying. You can obviously also see that in the sights themselves. They are helpful for seeing how certain actions effect sway but once you are familiar with it there is no reason to look at them
exactly, i dont see how that bar is even a problem, its just an extra visual representation of the inacurracy of the rifleman, even if those bars werent there, you could still see his inacurracy by looking at the sway of his arms and scope. and by complaining of that and how "immersive breaking" it is, you would also have to complain about that huge compass on the bottom
I noticed every time you were shooting and getting that terrible sway was because you ran entirely out of stamina. It is NOT that bad when you're moving slower into firefights and have a full stamina bar.
my frustration lies with the sight misalignment more than anything. i'm completely fine with punishment on 0 stam, but doing it with sight misalignment simply does not happen unless you do not shoulder the rifle at all
I have to agree with OP here in that your issues seem to stem from trying to move and shoot without regard for stamina or just how abrupt your movement is. You're moving and shooting like you would in regular squad. You're effectively running your character to exhaustion, then trying to ADS and maintain a sight picture without taking a moment to get your bearings. Took me the better part of a match to get my rhythm with this; really needing to consciously avoid trying to sprint straight into combat and avoid making extreme turns (where the gun can't keep up how fast I'm turning) when ADS. With that, I found that I had pretty reasonable aim, and could line up some pretty accurate shots.
@karmakut I have a good amount of experience with rifles IRL. When walking and looking down the sights of a magnified optic especially over 3x magnification it definitely does the same thing as in game. Same with recoil when firing quickly with magnified optics like that. We need to face that clunk in fact IS realism. In real life we don't just hold right click to hold a perfect sight picture. I personally love this change and think it's making squad much better
@@karmakut I can definitely understand that, I think the thing they were TRYING to go for, is the idea of you sprinting super hard and then like, hauling this gun into your sights. Is it perfect, no, not really. But I can understand how they would want to increase the firefight time like you said in the vid. It does make for less laser-beam fights and for a more 'immersive' experience. Maybe not entirely super realistic, but it is at least a longer exchange. I think it will be more about just learning how to adapt to this mechanic (which will probably get reduced some) rather than needing to change it outright.
When getting shot at your mind tells you to shoot back while your instinct tells you to duck down behind cover. Its really hard to get sucked in the scope. While not ideal, I think the game simulates this pretty well.
Gameplay gotta come first tho. At the end of the day it’s a video game and realism is great but this seems too floaty to be real anyway. Not a vet but been on a paintball team and shot more steady than this without a sight while under fire
@@helpumuch6887 It IS for the gameplay. Right now there's literally no reason to not take a scoped weapon. Most of the weapon roster is just straight up useless and serves no role because scopes are completely and totally baby-mode.
I think there's been a consistent misjudging of the sway mechanics from people who are treating it like a range day - the player character is sprinting, for extended periods, while under fire. It's gonna be more difficult to shoulder and steady a rifle when you're out of breath, full of adrenaline, and staring down an enemy gun. You're not playing as some high-speed operator, you're a grunt on two hours of sleep who's probably about to die. Also, the two main complaints are their own solutions - *don't* look at the deviation bars! Look at the gun itself swaying, look at the scope, how it's off-centre. You can see it right there. *That* is exactly the 'elegant, modern solution' that maintains immersion. This wasn't possible in PR, so I can see why PR vets would default back to just staring at deviation bars, but that's not a game problem, it's just something that needs getting used to over longer than a single playtest.
The point about 'lots of people never having fired a rifle' has its own counterpoint, which is that actual combat vets have responded more positively to the gunplay changes. It's not sport shooting, it's not fire and movement drills, it's not even an isolated firefight, it's war, and you're necessarily not gonna be performing as well as you could at the range.
hard disagree with these takes. personally I find this to be a massive improvement in the gameplay and a very nice return to the PR roots I backed the game for.
i quite literally say they deserve an A+ for effort, and that i love the direction that squad is going, i also mention how squad has a brighter future than ever before, they just need to do it without sacrificing gunplay
@@F80mthree And yet as he said, even he can control a real firearm better than the "Soldiers" in squad, this is something games do all too much, they make recoil obnoxious like I am shooting with a weak wrist, it's like the myth, the AK kicks like a mule, the AK is easy to shoot, it's just not very effective beyond 200-300 meters. In short, we can control guns better in real life, than in games, recoil is a balancing mechanic, not a realism mechanic.
@@Rhinosaurfish I dont know anything about any of this but i just want to point out that Im sure karma wasn't being shot at or in the middle of a battlefield after running with 60+ pounds of gear? If im incorrect then my bad but im guessing those two things also needs to be brought up when talking about how squad simulates gunplay.
I don't see how the PR deviation meter pulls you out of the experience. It's just a seamless non-intrusive HUD element which communicates the sway mechanics and feedback to your mouse movement. Its just like any other HUD element like the (also) non intrusive stamina bar. I also fail to see how the mechanic is regressive when PR's deviation was quite revolutionary, although had its gamified limitations. Plus Squad's implementation is slightly different, it utilizes animation sway instead of a true deviation relative to your scope crosshair. I'm pretty sure the meter is there to help explain the mechanic to newcomers and also win back the PR crowd. Win-win.
would be nicer if they cut it completely out of the UI. I'd like an option to disable it atleast. Also I don't think there's that many left in the PR crowd that aren't already either playing squad or something else.
@@marcusfanning7513I'll be honest I struggle to actually see the deviation bar moving unless I'm actively looking at it, but that's just me. Especially since it's on top of an already actively moving compass HUD element.
@@GreenSinic its already something you can visibly see just by looking where your characters aiming at. If they're shaking their gun around, deviation = high, else, deviation = low. No need to have an annoying HUD element that made sense in PR when you couldn't represent it with the aim shaking. The whole point of the bar in PR was literally as a substitute for the characters aim shaking, something that wasn't possible at the time. Now that we have the real thing why are we still using the shitty substitute?
I would argue with your rifle stabiliziation point. Have you tried shooting a chest sized target from a 100 meters while standing? 10-25 meters is not that hard but stabilizing for a 100 meters especially after you sprinted a little is damn hard.
im fine with that for the most part, the biggest gripe i have is with the sight misalignment which very literally does not happen unless you are not shouldering the rifle at all.
@@sleepylion9788 in certain situations, like if they are surprised by an enemy while being preoccupied, I could imagine they would accidently aim their weapon up without shouldering it in a panic, but as far as I know, this would only happen in certain situations, and it most likely isn't an actual common occurrence that happens in combat (maybe)
In reality, you don't shoot from static positions. In reality, you're not going to have years of experience at the range. In reality you will have to contend with fatugue, distraction, loud noises, movement of your own body, obstructed vision, tunnel vision, suppression, and fear for the dear life. Also - no, you cannot accurately shoot past 50 feet while moving.
@@ControlledPairsGaming Care to elaborate? Out of interest, considering your own experience. Also, what is your general take of the new Infantry Overhaul?
It feels like the gun mechanics exist as a way to compensate for the point and click nature of shooter mechanics. Kinda like how Mechwarrior has to double all the armour values from tabletop because once you let players point and click they're gonna *point and click* real good. It's hard to abstract it out while still making things feel realistic.
in a "mil-sim" like what squad wants to be, i believe having better firefights at the cost of better gunplay is 100% justified and actually good for the game and for the people that come to play it because its sold as that mil sim successor of pr, if you want better gunplay, running and gunning, jumping around corners and 360 no scope headshotting with the m24 then go play call of duty, battlefield, battlebit or the other thousands of arcade shooters there is in the market
I feel the same. I much prefer this because firefights become....actual firefights. Not nearly as much scenarios where dudes just 180 and just one shot you, actual firefights with people getting in cover, suppressing and flanks.
You can accomplish this without making the gun play dog shit. They can back off like 50% on this and I think it’ll work. But this is god-awful as it stands even though it ups the shit show factor 10,000% which is exactly what you want.
i quite literally say they deserve an A+ for effort, and that i love the direction that squad is going, i also mention how squad has a brighter future than ever before
make guns handle well. make suppression really strong. and i think you can achieve both. Playing Squad your RPing as a trained soldier or operator. You should be able to hold a gun correctly.
@@karmakut I agree, I suppose I meant the prospect of them trying to return to roots, I'd rather them continue with this direction then go back, even if it takes a while to iron it out
Squad could balance vehicles by: 1. Not forcing AT to load a rocket every time they pull out the launcher, just leave the rocket that was loaded in last in the weapon. That animation is no longer needed for balance because sway creates a sufficiently long downtime between pulling out the weapon and shooting on its own. 2. Reworking vehicles to a modular damage system like War Thunder, Enlisted, or Post Scriptum to make vehicles be more threatened by anti-tank weapons, maybe along with thermal sights for appropriate vehicles to make it harder to sneak up on vehicles
@@thesultan6635 idk about that one, giving them more ammo would incentivize them to run off and lonewolf. Limited ammo forces them to work in a team with rifleman to be effective
@@thesultan6635 I think less Rockets is fine, but a better damage system is necessary to make that rocket be more effective. Studying vehicle weak points and where ammo, crew, engines are located would pay off. I hate the make the comparison but it's basically what War Thunder and Enlisted have. If your aim is good and you know where to hit, that rocket should mess up the vehicle. Instead of what it is now and where you just vaguely aim for the flanks of vehicles, or at best, the tracks or engine. Things like the crew sitting in vehicles, exterior sights and periscopes, gun barrels, etc. should all be modeled and target-able. Even a LAT could seriously mess up an MBT with a good shot and proper positioning. But for balance they would have a weapon which is more difficult to make those shots with (which is how it is in game already since most LATs dont have scopes on their rocket launchers)
I'm not really sure, these changes are the only time motorised and mechanised infantry has ever had benefits in my tests because the vehicles are no longer just liabilities to lead around and ticket bleeds, it's pretty good. I think the damage model is good for the casual players, any more realistic and tanks will appear invincible to those that don't understand dual angle of velocity, spalling, armour thickness and projectile penetration and where the crew and components sit in each vehicle. Realism will only strengthen AND weaken vehicles based on a multiplicity of variables, most players want to see a tank burst into flames every time, as if the fuel and ammunition is just everywhere and ready to pop. I'd just love a hardcore mode that servers can switch on, with these infantry settings and more realistic vehicle damage, higher ticket costs, longer respawns etc, give both playerbases a community to be in rather than funneling them all together.
I've shot a lot of automatics.... looks reasonable.... and there is a difference between shooting a target at the range and people shooting back at you..... I'd image with bullets whizzing over your head finding that sight picture is a lot harder..... I like less lasers
no offence but you probably haven't had a lot of proper training on how to shoot. the recoil/sway the guns have are kind of ridiculous. the stock of an m4 isn't going to leave your shoulder from automatic fire, and you cheek wouldn't leave the stock.
@@jayjohnson-t2y bro this is not a "gotcha" argument. it doesn't change the fact that shooting in Squad is at least somewhat exaggerated compared to real life. i dont know if you people have noticed, but if you go on the flat range in squad ... get this, the gunplay stays the same. there is no mechanic that affects gunplay while being shot at besides the suppression mechanics w/ viewpunch that have dropped. this groupthink gaslighting is ridiculous bro.
The thing about realism in videogames, is that I feel there ultimately is an eternal struggle between individual realism, and collective realism. Let me break that down for those whom may not understand the differences between those terms. Individual Realism comes down to things like, how fast a loaded down infantryman can sprint. How long he can sprint for, how long it takes him to catch his breath, how he handles his recoil, how well he can keep his sight aligned. A good, well-trained and well-rehearsed rifleman can ideally shoot, move, and communicate at a modest-high level of proficiency. Obviously you want the maximum level of proficiency possible, but budget and things like that, factor into how much the individual soldier actually gets to train, so we'll keep things simple. Collective Realism is how all of those individual aspects interact within the overarching game/experience as a whole. Collective Realism, is what this update is trying to address. The base level, is the gunplay. The collective experience, is the firefight. They're interconnected, but maximum individual realism, does not inherently equal high collective realism. We see this play out in ArmA A LOT. There's a lot of recoil, suppression, AI, and other mods that can create an immersive (albeit clunky) experience. Even down to realistic recoil patterns for rifles. But there's no actual features, built into the game, that keep the player from overcoming these barriers. Once the shock of hearing loud snaps and cracks from a really good sound mod passes, or you learn that you can still shoot accurately even when your screen is blurred out from suppression, it becomes a non-factor, or at least, minor enough to not play a significant enough role in the overarching experience. So, within the confines of a Milsim community, in which everyone is buying into the larp, it works well. Because everyone wants to play along. In a game like Squad however, especially for the average player who does not play in organized events, you need things built into the game that prevent players from simply learning how to (in a very gamey fashion), skirt the effects of suppression and even flinching. This is where collective vs individual realism comes into play. It may be less realistic for me, an average rifleman, to have difficulties aligning my sight or controlling the recoil of my rifle. But the effect, is that the firefights are better. Maybe there is a solution in which both can equally be increased, but I have never seen a game that implements maximum individual realism, and maximum collective realism. Even with Squads floaty recoil before this change, it was just very... Gamey. I found it very easy to just pop people from hundreds of yards away. Machine Gunner? No problem, if I have an ACOG. Perhaps it was realistic that I would be able to accurately engage those people from the distance I was, within an ACOG, but the effect was that the firefights were kinda lackluster. My point is that I don't think the gunplay is necessarily bad, it's just different. Not because they think it's authentic, but because it plays into creating a more authentic experience at the macro-level. I think some of the suppression effects, for rifles specifically, are played up too high. And I disagree with things like blurring every time you fire the weapon, but I think the tweaks that need to be made in order to make this a serviceable system are minor and it's definitely a step in the right direction, for folks who are looking for an improved firefight and squad-play system. There are things that will be different. RAAS will not be able to be played as it was before, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Just trying to rationalize what a lot of people who enjoy/look forward to this update, including the gunplay, are thinking and thanks for reading my TED Talk.
Basically summed my take up. It's not realism that's the issue. It's the amount of realism that you can reasonably have in a Team vs Team environment while also pursuing the vision that the Squad devs have. This might not be the most realistic version of an individual soldier [Although it is more realistic than Squad used to be for a soldier in a firefight] but it is the more realistic version of firefights in general. I feel like having some kinda fire and maneuver is actually a viable option rather than finishing fights in 20 seconds because every player on each time is as accurate as their mouse allows them to be, under no effects of the firefight itself
@@karmakut Don't get me wrong, I would prefer a game in which we had maximum both. Authentic recoil and movement at the individual level, while still maintaining authenticity when it comes to firefights. I'm sure there is a way, but I'm doubtful anyone will put enough effort into finding/implementing such methods into a game. Here's hoping someone a hell of a lot smarter than all of us comes along and plops something perfect down at our feet someday.
50 meters isn't enough, run until you get winded, then try body discipline with breathing. I can remember being surprised the first time I fired a Steyr AUG on auto in the standing at the spread pattern from a 3 to 5 round burst despite being a decent shooter in any supported positions.
Like someone else comented, I feel like you are not thinking straight about everything here. Its not supposed to be Call of Duty or Battlefield, like being able to be acurate while running and being shot at. The mechanics are great, the hud thing is not PRs one, and you dont have to look at it, just like stamina bar or character stance, its just there for information purpose. You can be accurate while steady and not suppressed, making engagements more realistic and better overall. About the people who got to used to what Squad has become, well, it was not supposed to be like that, if you dont like the realism we are about to get there are countless arcade options out there, let Squad be The Squad we deserve.
Lmao he explained how it's not realistic enough, and the implementation is wrong, and your response is to back to battlefield? 😂wtf is wrong with these people
@@BRAdriel10 I didn't ignore your whole post, it seems like you ignored Karma's argument which is that the current recoil isn't realistic. Saying "it's not supposed to be cod" is just ignorant because it's obvious he never suggested it should be anything like that.
Hard disagree with you on these changes feeling bad. Maybe stop sprinting into firefights out of stamina and getting caught. Of course aiming down a scope in that situation is going to be harder. Walking and shooting is hard. Try having full stamina and standing still I had no issues with the systems, maybe tweak them a little and sort some bugs. But you're just complaining about being out of stamina and walking, strafing and trying to shoot people over 50 meters away. You can, at a range with no kit on and under your own conditions shoot better I don't doubt it. But these are soldiers being given three round burst M4's they aren't good enough to be given m4a1 block II's, suppressors and high cut helmets. We aren't playing operators who can walk, strafe and shoot well simultaneously which is actually a challenging thing not many typical infantry can pull off. Yet at the range in game at 10-50 meters it's actually really easy still to be fair. Edit: I do think it's exaggerated but in a good way, we as players are super soldiers given the chance. We ignore fatigue and make impossible shots all the time, the exaggeration on sway and eye relief struggles is definitely a better solution than random deviation and the recoil/blur/etc is spot on. At least this way your rounds still impact at your actual point of aim/crosshair, it's just difficult to aim when out of stamina and not already ready, aiming, and set up. It empowers defensive people ready and fully rested vs people running into the fray and snap head-shotting everybody around them unopposed. It encourages suppression, aiming for center of mass, and holding your fire so more team members can get a line of sight and assist because one man can't do it alone anymore. Maybe it's over tuned, but even still I have no issues hitting impossible shots still.
@@karmakut uh not to be rude but I've seen "trained solders" laughing about how hard it is to walk and shoot when trying it out at a range and fucking it up a bunch.
I like it , I dont like when a ''realistic'' game make me feel like a super soldier. Now I can suppress in peace without getting 1 tapped from 300m away
I think if you’re dealing with all the shit that comes with fighting for your life, the mental stress, the adrenaline in your veins, the physical stress of trekking in adverse conditions and setting your body up in weird stances and uncomfortable positions to break shots at the enemy, you’re probably not pulling A zone shots off like you would be on the range. This gun handling looks like most conventional infantry combat videos that folks like me and you can enjoy from the comfort of our heated and AC cooled homes. It needs a little tweaking, but to say this was one step forward two steps back seems very unreasonable.
I mean you can look up combat vidoes from the gwot of regular grunts. When they fire, the gun doesn't look like it has a stick of butter on the stock. It's pulled in to the shoulder and when they fire rapidly the gun doesn't move that much. The guns feel like when I was 7 trying to shoot a mosin nagant.
I dont care how tired and fatigued and scared ive been. Ive NEVER once in my life put my rifle stock in my mouth mid firing. That is actually unexcusable.
@@flokejm3904 You are focusing on the process and not the outcome. The truth is that FPS especially on mouse/keyboard have gunplay that is way more accurate than in reality. The gun sways more than in reality but the end result is not that different. In most FPS games including old Squad, 400 meters+ is easy kills. In reality, most shots at 400 meters will miss, especially if the shooter is running into a firing position. How do you represent that in-game to the player without weird behaviors like overly swaying guns?
>Complains how the weapons sways and how the sight pictures doesn't stay still >Says that not how it works >Bring up experience "Check notes" Shooting gun at a range, using vr, and using air soft as examples >Meanwhile the footage shows you running and aiming while getting shot at >Lol, lmao
A guy with, let’s say some experience here. The gunplay is on point, the best i’ve seen in a videogame. If you want to make it easier choose a colimator or iron sight over a magnified optic
I agree and i think that was the point of this update. So scopes ISN'T the default, always best option. It is seriously a very difficult choice sometimes between running iron/red dot vs scope. Currently squad is pretty much composed of 90% of players running scopes and I seriously hate it. If you don't have a scope, it puts you at a dramatic and very noticeable disadvantage. This update drastically levels the playing field and introduces hard tradeoff decisions.
i mean, what else are they supposed to do? their trying to force realism by making it a little over the top because players were too good in the vanilla squad, getting 40+ kills as a single infantryman some rounds. This is the only way to make players not be able to play the game like a run and gun fps like it has been the past 2-3 years. There really is no other way, you either let it become arcadey or you force realism by making it over the top, it always end up becoming either.
If you say there is a better way, and you clearly have worked on addressing gameplay issues through modding in the past, then you should include suggestions. (Now is the time to do it, as they're running tests, after all) Anyone can say "it's bad", and "there has to be a better way". And I'm unironically sure you must have some ideas on how to improve it. Why not mention any?
@@karmakut I found this to feel better in the second playtest but it felt like they made it too easy. They are doing a good job because its only the playtest but I think between what the first and second playtest had would be cool.
I definitely get the point about worsening the gunplay. But what would be the better solution? My beloved arma has pretty shitty gunplay, tarkov wouldn't work here either so what would? Right now at least it looks immersive as hell. I like to think of it as if we're playing as a regular not-to-well trained infantryman carrying a heavy backpack and tired from running. So he needs a moment to steady his breathing. Plus the adrenalin of a real firefight, I believe, can't be even remotely compared to a range shooting.
@@karmakut so make the game run and gun again? These kind of changes where heavily needed to prevent people from clicking on heads. There isn't a way to level out peoples reaction times since moving and handling a rifle is significantly more difficult than just moving a mouse. The recoil system could be toned down, however it needs to stay for team play to be more viable. Full auto should essentially be useless in most situations and making it more situational improves the feel of combat.
@@karmakut you shouldn't be able to click on heads period. Aiming center mass should be encouraged instead of headshots because of the new systems. Headshots should be reserved for maeksman and snipers not for the average joe.
@@Fatallydisorganized none of the changes in this update make it impossible or even more difficult to click heads if you are able to hit center mass. The times you're getting headshot are either someone getting the drop on you or being in a better position. Even though this update is designed as a crutch for players who are worse at shooting, it's not going to change the veteran players stomping on the newer ones. It just forces people to play more with their squad and lone wolf less.
How else can you slow down the game without literally slowing down gun play. It'd be great if you had any suggestions. Feels like an impossible ask otherwise. Also are we going to really ignore the hundred unrealistic things in squad and complain that the slow aiming is unrealistic?
I think worse gunplay is required in a game like to enhance the firefight. Fundamental FPS stuff seeps in to easily, peaker's advantage, previous map knowledge, prefiring popular well known spots and just how skilled people are at clicking heads is too invasive. If a guy's got a corner locked down after awkwardly shouldering it, he should an overwhelming advantage imo.
PR vet and IRL shooter here - It is jarring, especially the very initial ADS in some cases, and it looks exaggerated from the first-person perspective indeed. But please consider how ridiculously easy it is to aim with a mouse vs manipulating a gun in your hands. In vanilla Squad, you can easily beat world-record shots and times on the range first try. There is just no difficulty to it; it is not anywhere as challenging as it is in real life to accomplish the same thing. I would say, that in order to achieve a realistic shooting difficulty that reflects real-world engagements, so long as we are using M&KB, the screen has to shake and sway A LOT. Otherwise, it truly is as simple as point-and-click. It is not aesthetically pleasing, but damn, it's closer to the real thing than I've ever seen. As an experiment, watch Jerry Miculek pop 4 targets at 400 yards with an AR and then try to replicate that in the new update. I can still beat him in-game. A world-class shooter. We're calling the new update wildly inaccurate etc etc, but I don't think we can say that until we directly compare the results and not just how it feels.
Other than maybe agreeing recoil can be toned down a tad, I think it's an exaggeration to say it's 2 steps back when it's already better than the current build overall. They can tweak the little things, but otherwise this is definitely the direction to go.
Positive changes but would tweak as such: 1. Gun is never at the ready but pointed at ground. Click once and it's up for hip fire and now ready, start increasing exhaustion level very slowly. The gun can be maintained at the hip for 10 minutes before reaching maximum exhaustion. Bringing gun up to hip is extremely quick (less than half a second?). 2. Right click and gun sights are up, increase exhaustion at double the rate of hip fire. Time to bring gun sights up only a tiny bit slower than hip fire (less than a second). Accurately acquiring a target will take longer based on exhaustion/stance. 3. Introduce breathing noise based on exhaustion level, make it an ambient sound, not loud but to add to the grit of the battle, also enemies that are very close may also hear it. 4. Introduce movement of only gun (not the entire screen) mainly in the vertical axis, sync'd with breath noise. 5. Vertical gun movement proportional to exhaustion. 6. Time for initial stable sighting period range based on stance and exhaustion. 7. Hold breath can be used but exhaustion also increases quickly when in use, and use time of hold breath exponentially shortened based on current level of exhaustion. 8. When firing, have a recoil effect proportional to exhaustion/stance - the more rounds you fire in quick succession, the more quickly you'll be exhausted. Hearing your character at full exhaustion by heavy breathing may not be very realistic but allows for the player to get used to how exhaustion works without having to pay attention to another mini on screen mechanic the tracts. 9. Have two top exhaustion levels. The first when you've reached exhaustion which can happen pretty quickly based on your consecutive activities - at this level full aim penalties are felt and this level of exhaustion can be maintained for a full few minutes. The second, absolute maximum level of exhaustion when reached, has your character lower their gun to gun to hip fire and your character can be heard nearly gasping for breath. Aim penalties remain the same but can't go to sights until exhaustion levels go back under the first top level state of exhaustion. Obviously these changes would need to be fleshed out but I believe these changes will make the gun feel more responsive and tighter on the shoulder initially. The changes try to gamify some real world elements such as stance/exhaustion that effect aiming. The new scoped mechanics will only be really noticeable as exhaustion becomes more pronounced.
I mean... you know the mechanics that they changed, and on those clips you are still running and shooting, sometimes with a 4x On this clip 2:34 it seems that ur stamina was half way, u were sprinting with your gun lowered, turned right has someone was shooting you and started an auto before the weapon was on target. So it's very realistic and different from the shooting range you are comparing to.
realism is when you're sucking on the stock eh? even if i'm winded from a 5 mile run, under fire, etc, it is impossible for this perspective in that clip to even occur unless stock is PHYSICALLY in my mouth. pause the that clip and imagine where your head would be as each shot is fired, you'll understand what i mean
@@karmakut i think youre complaining about the graphical representation then and not the actual gameplay mechanic. its like an EMT complaining about bandages reviving people in the game. sure, they can tone it down. but it feels like making a mountain out of a molehill when youre looking at the wrong molehill. the point still stands that you fucked up on that hill and were punished, and thats okay.
@@karmakut could be that also in the middle of all that, you were also mid crouching. I don't say the system is perfect, most likely has direction limitations can take some tweak, each weapon differently we can only expect it to get better, but that said, you also get unrealistic response when u you give an unrealistic input, you wouldn't, sprint, turn, aim, crouch and shoot accurately at all while being shot at. Hey man, I love your videos and from an outside view, I think it's ones of those cases that u will grow to love it as you play it.
Everybody talking about gunplay and firefight experience, but no one is talking about teamwork and playing the objective. It's already hard as it is to educate new players on playing for the team, and we are at a low number. If this game has to be a 400 players base game, so be it. Squad, despite many flaws and lack of optimizations for everyone, was at the same time fun and serious. I don't want to play PR or new Battlefield, I just want to play Squad.
exactly. The games will bog down in to slogs, and all these people talking about how awesome it is to not be able to shoot semi accurately in a video game, will get bored of the spectacle and go and play cod or battlefield or whatever fucking video game it is that has satisfying mouse clicking
>runs around trying to run&gun >runs into a guy at 50% stamina >gets killed because of new mechanic >ruins the game because devs listen to players like you Ty cigan
Karmakut have you ever tried to fire a rifle after running? when you are tired? have you done live drills not on a flat range? moving and shooting and hitting your targets is very difficult, especially on uneven terrain, and also add someone shooting at you, unless you are some SOF war vet, i have a hard time believing you will shoulder you fire arm and aim quickly at the enemy and HIT him, I know cases soldiers fired 15 shots at an enemy from 15 meters and hit only 2, stress, surprise, fatigue, are all impacting your shooting, the update seems very good and true to real life, some tweaks are needed but its great, VR does not carry over IRL shooting well, Airsoft is great but at the end of the day its BB guns with no recoil, it seem the devs spoke to vets while making this update.
"Im able to get a rifle online and more stable than my character in game" in a 100% controlled environment where you havent been sprinting miles and/or being shot at and bombarded while your adrenaline is pumping
The only thing i agree with you is that the sway of the gun should be decrease, but thats what the playtest is for. Also, there is no polarizing in the comunity, the only ones that are not aproving the update is the ones that play squad like it is COD.
Yeah but many like the way that it was... and even then it is WORLDS away from COD. I'm looking forward to the new mechanics being updated, but as we know, fine tuning still needs to occur first.
Meh, normally I see your views as spot on with mine but this video comes off super complainy. To avoid this offer possible solutions to your complaints. Sad to see you release a video like this.
You absolutely ignored the fact that the soldier was totally out of breath when you are shooting, has you said, you are yourself a beginner in shooting, try to run 2km then immediately shooting in full auto
As someone who has experience shooting butt stock AKs IRL would say the sway mechanism is very realistic. Especially when you're carrying heavy and trying to shoot while moving. I agree that the M4s sway mechanism is over-exaggerated and should be way less than stock AKs.
The two clips at around 2:35 show you with really low stamina meaning you were coming out of sprints and taking those shots In this case the devs are trying to get rid of a gameplay style you were doing there. Gameplay>realism. Plus I’d like to see you do a full sprint until you couldn’t anymore and try and look down an acog. Something tells me it’d be really hard in a full kit
@@archer1133 which was done for gameplay reasons. It discourages run and gun type of play. It’s really not even that bad having played the PT myself. The trick is to not play the PT like the current live squad version
I like your content, been following, and will continue following obviously. But, trust me, saying that you can ALWAYS align an optic after some stress and exhaustion… it is some ghostbusters thing lol
@@systembeard6959 that is because magnified optics like the trijicon he is using at the game are harder to align than a collimator/iron sights, obviously a sniper scope like S&B pmII is much even harder, that plus. Complete exhaustion, not comfortable gear, not comfortable position, stress makes it harder to shoot with it, i actually use that optic in a hk417 i know what i talk about, and thanks for teaching me what a stock is hahah
Karma no hate here. Just an honest question. But do you think you may have some negative bias against the changes do to your work on your custom arma server and the possibility of the overhaul siphoning off some of the players from your server back to squad?? It may even be subconscious negative bias and nothing intentional. You have put a TON of work into your mod and it would be completely understandable if you do. Because anecdotally, myself and the vast majority of the people I play with regularly on squad REALLY enjoyed the changes on the test server.
i think people equate me critiquing and providing feedback regarding the test to shitting on squad, suppression is actually better, gunplay (from someone who has shot a rifle) feels objectively worse. even at the end of the video i mention how the future is brighter for squad than ever before.
To be honest, I stopped paying attention to the stability indicator after a few minutes. The actual sway of the gun is what I was watching to judge accuracy of my shots, I never felt confident firing off when the gun was swaying heavily unless I had to return snap shots or suppress an enemy trying to suppress me. I agree that the gun stock is moving too much when aiming down the sights.
I don’t think we have a better solution to the stability icon system right now that doesn’t result in run and gun gameplay becoming viable again. If you go to a system with just increased weapon sway, then people can still can do those 180 degree flick shots that no one wants in squad. Conversely if you have deviation like in PR, then you have janky gunplay where bullets don’t go where you’re aiming at. Someone smarter might have a solution to this problem but honestly, this might be the best solution we have right now even if it sucks somewhat
I feel like I was pulled in to the combat way more, and I'm ready to come back it's been a year or more for me too.. This was a step in the right direction, and I'm glad I'm still alive to play it
I think entire gunplay, the sway, blur, time to ads was cranked all the way up during first playtest, now they just dial it back and find a sweet spot.
by making it more difficult to shoot they have made it more realistic. I'm sorry but when you get into an unexpected firefight with someone that's fifteen feet away you're not going to shoulder and sight unhindered. It's going to be messy its going to be sloppy its going to be everything but smooth. Just might have to pick squad back up
Idk, I think it feels and looks more real, rather than shooting in a controlled situation at a firing range. This kinda captures that panicked shouldering. If you don’t stop and slow yourself to actually shoulder your rifle. You’re gonna shoot like shit.
If they keep gun play tight you will always be able to pop up and one tap someone, and firefights will never feel good. This is taking pr's seemingly hopelessly inaccurate weapons and updating them by showing why you can't hit anything. I think it's the best solution they can find to slow down firefights
The sway seems legit to me man. In most cases soldiers aren’t even aiming down sights they just need to get rounds off. At a range you don’t have bullets whizzing by you .
totally understand, you have some really good takes from a PR player perspective. your video is a fantastic breakdown from that viewpoint and better explains that mindset th-cam.com/video/9iSLd3DOqfQ/w-d-xo.html
To a degree I agree with the issues raised: though I think the answer is tuning, and everyone I asked during PT said the same. Suppression is I think almost perfect, recoil is reasonably close, gun the time to get a stable aim is too long (by 30-40%) and the focus/blur when changing optics is a little too long (25% say). My suspicion is that they left all the tuning parameters at the "highest reasonable values" to make it _really_ obvious for feedback on what needs tuning, otherwise it'd be harder to understand the impact. I took me a good 2 hours before I got used to it and stopped noticing it. For sure gun is still too wobbly: ADS should reduce wobble quicker, but Shift should also be tuned up to more of an additional focus/control bonus. Definitely infantry vs armour is quite different, but in the PT the difference was most noticable in that MATV, TIGR or BTR type vehicles were much more useful (former you don't get shot out instantly), however mostly in a reasonable way, back towards them being important tools. My thought there is they'll likely balance it both by tuning inf. combat. so that LAT/HAT is a bit easier to use, and then perhaps slight buffs to LAT against light vics and APCs (it was, they nerfed it a while back). Also, I've always wondered if they could allow for "C" for resting non-bipod weapons in the same situations, it'd gain a limited bonus at reducing sway quicker, may be a little recoil control? Giving players more options. I enjoyed it, but I'm biased, rate it 8/10 as-is, and further tuning should get it to 9/10.
Being able to deploy your weapon against structures like in Arma would be pretty nice. It would further encourage groups to analyze their situation and fight for good positions that give control over the area they want
I think a lot of the gameplay issues are driven by bad players. Every once in a blue moon, you join a server that has two teams with good tactics, good coms, and good squad leaders. When this happens, it's fun as hell. But there's not much a dev can do to force people to use teamwork. That comes down to the individual. Maybe the more hardcore direction the game is going will weed out these run-and-gun KDR chasers.
One way could be to enforce roles via squad specializations. There should be a dedicated pilot squad, mechanized infantry squads (Bradley’s, BMP’s, LAV’s, and etc ) with a minimum player count of 5, dedicated tank squads, and the rest (they get trucks, humvees, mraps, and etc). I believe HLL did this and this led to the vehicles being used more properly
The new mechanics make it much harder to run and gun around solo. It's harder to aim and shoot enemies and they can easily suppress you and throw off your aim. You run slower and can't lean spam either. You die so quickly when alone that you naturally stick with the rest of your squad. The test server was the first time I saw a firing line of players advancing through a forest to clear out enemies and not get immediately mowed down. The suppression makes you maneuver around the enemy thus improving communication. In short: You are heavily incentivized to stick with your squad and communicate with them to win firefights.
How else would you encourage 50 random people to work together though? This is, after all a game, and do you think unrealistic game elements being used to encourage overall realistic gameplay is worth it?
Honestly I disagree completely about the recoil reverting back to the old system would completely negate everything else that makes this update great hopefully the squad devs listen to the whole community instead of trying to please content creators.
im not asking to return to the old style of gameplay, im asking for the rework to not sacrifice gunplay to this extreme. i love the new suppression and hope its kept in with a few changes
@@karmakutMy point is reverting back to the old recoil system without sway and stamina deviation effect would just lead to the same tap fire bs we're all excited to step away from and judging by the actual combat veterans in the comments of multiple videos is an accurate portrayal of firefights or atleast much closer than before. Plus try getting a great cheek weld on a rifle while you've just ran 2 minutes with 70lbs of gear, plate carrier and backpack there's a reason you see soldiers just shouldering the tail of the stock when in full kit. Dialing the recoil down by maybe 10-15% would be okay but it's definitely not super necessary in my opinion.
As a Kickstarter backer I installed and uninstalled Squad for like 8 times over the years, gunplay mechanics are/were THE LEAST of issues for me, as a solo player I did not even once found a squad with anything remotely resembling any kind of actual teamplay, I have been revived more times in one round of BF3 than in Squad for 5-ish years. Squad is a game that exclusively can work only for people with groups of friends.
Idk, with project reality I felt like I could play as any infantry role, even squad leader. The current squad feels like csgo or cod, I get instant beemed by a guy sprinting full speed. Im hope these changes will force everyone to rely on team play
Do you know that statistically 8 out of 10 trained marines in a real firefight tend to shoot somali-style in the general direction of the enemy? Because irl everyone wants to live. It takes very special mindset and training to be able to stand under fire and align your shots perfectly. This is a game about regular infantry, not spec-ops in any way. So even if recoil pattern and swaying looks unrealistic sometimes it seems the only way to simulate a soldier trying to catch his breath and shoot under enemy fire. Since we as players cannot feel that adrenalin in any way 🤷
where did you pull that "fact" out of. An infantryman is not going to shoot "Somali style" they will lay down suppressive fire if they can't see the enemy, but in general they will maintain proper shooting mechanics (shouldered stock/cheek weld).
Stumbling upon your channel 6 years ago was how I found out about Squad, and I ended up watching a majority of your Squad content from then until you stopped making videos on the game. I only have 380 hours total playtime so my opinion on the infantry overhaul can differ greatly to others. I also have absolutely close to zero experience handling anything larger than a pistol (I'm Canadian so gun ownership stuff). The weapon handling change to me feels amazing. For a game that advertises itself on being a milsim, it really does put a hamper on the gameplay experience knowing that a player that doesn't value their life/ticket has no problem with running and gunning, which the current Squad has. Yes, having to stand still and bracing yourself to line up a shot is incredibly annoying to deal with the majority of the time, but the entire purpose of the overhaul is to slow down the general pace of the game. I feel that a lot of people that are taking issue to how slow it feels are either people that don't play milsim games that often or don't want to change the way they play Squad currently. With PiP being introduced, I feel that they tackled the issue of everyone wanting to take a gun with magnification very well. You're supposed to be picking the loadout you want based on your playstyle, not picking a kit and forcing it into how you play Squad. I feel it's there's an argument that you feel that sway is very out of place because besides one portion of the video, you're only using an optic with magnification. I'd imagine trying to center a target with a scope is relatively hard past a certain range compared to centering a target with a point optic like the red dot/holographic systems at close range. Recoil wise, the single fire between all guns is well rounded to helping OWI achieve the longer firefight feel. Firing a shot every half second or so did not fail me during the first overhaul beta and did not feel clunky at all and if anything felt more rewarding knowing that if I didn't panic and took my time, 3 out of 4 times I could kill the target if we saw each other at the same time. I can't really give an opinion on whether or not recoil feels good in terms of full auto because I rarely play classes with MGs or don't use full recoil unless I'm in a building or closer than 10 meters to the intended target. The gameplay you're showing us in the video doesn't really do your points justice about weapon sway/weapon recoil because you're playing the overhaul as if it were just standard Squad. It isn't. It's meant to be more gruelling and slower paced with the player being rewarded or punished way heavier than before. As it is, it's incredibly important to constructive criticism on the overhaul since you've just said you love the direction that Squad is going. As a fan of your channel for close to 6 years, I don't agree on how you're criticizing Squad. You show the issues that you have with the overhaul and don't elaborate further on you feel that they can fix these problems. Saying things like "I don't like this part about that part" without giving some kind of example on how to fix the issue is nothing more than just a way to bash the developers. Then going somewhat off topic and saying things like "There are other issues with Squad I don't agree with" changes the entire vibe of the video. If anything you should have just named the video 'Squad's Infantry Overhaul and Issues That Need to be Addressed'. Watching you have so much fun in with Squad in the past wishes that you at least give ideas on how to make the game more fun/realistic and not give more fuel to why or why not Squad is doing well. Squad is on it's way back to the upper echelons of milsim games with how Hell Let Loose is turning out and anyone that gives a damn about Squad needs to give as many ideas to OWI until the release of the overhaul so that it's bright and polished for everyone to enjoy. At the end of the day once the overhaul is released, someone is going to be happy and someone is not.
thank you for watching the channel man, that is a long way to come. my notes on the gunplay are exactly as they are in the video. tune down the recoil/sway more, fix the scope misalignment, keep the suppression. overall im pretty sure i've mentioned multiple times how squad deserves an A+ for this test and their effort and that it has a brighter future than ever before.
I think there are things you can't simulate in a game well enough without implementing something overexaggerated. Most of the things you experience in a real firefight happens, because you're in a certain mental state, eg. weapon sway. You obviously won't be swinging your rifle around like crazy but your hands will be shaky, you'll be snappy and your brain will automatically disregard certain stuff, focusing on very particular things. You can't generate this in a game naturally, because your body would have to be in an extremely adrenaline induced fight or flight mode. You were right in saying that they chose firefight over gunplay, because they're probably trying to capture raw feelings and experience, which might make it more realistic from a certain angle. Dial them down, your gunplay may feel better but the overall experience might dilute. When I'm playing a simulator of this sort I play it to try and feel something similar if I were to be out there in the field. Squad was very goofy in my opinion when you had the option to jump over a compound wall in full gear and solo an entire team in the back.
Maybe the 'floaty' gunplay can be synched to suppression to make it so accuracy drops dramatically as the fear and adrenaline of being under fire come into play. That way, if you are getting the first shots off and aren't under fire, you experience accuracy and gunplay as if you were on the range, while you get the panic like floaty gunplay when you're shot at and the rifleman you're playing as is panicking.
I thought about this too, if their was an active adrenaline system it might be a good middle ground for both groups. Make the adrenaline rise instead of fall while under fire and make it slowly drain (slower than stamina gain probably ) as you get to better cover.
Many people in the comments have pointed out most of the time you're weapon is going crazy is because you're out of stam, have just whipped around, or are doing a stance change, or multiple of these things. It also really hard to get the perspective lined up between a game and real life, and on top of that in real life you're brain filters out a lot of motion and arms and body absorb recoil which people are 100% used to games doing almost entirely for them.
Don’t listen here Squad devs, keep up the good work! If no constructive criticism is offered and only “regression” and “bad implementation” is said here then theres no point. Or you could be like chad Bigfry and say fuck it; make your own game.
imma have to disagree. I think the new changes to the gunplay are an equal balance between realistic tactical shooter, and a bigger focus on team play and communication.
If you play airsoft with a scope you would know that scope misalignment is a very real thing when you are panicing. Sure maybe not for everyone, but put yourself in the shoes of an actual soldier under real fire and they are having an anxiety attack because at any moment they could die, they yes it would be pretty common to have some scope misalignment. And before i hear the fact that real soldiers dont panic in battle thats bullshit, most due and you would too if you had bullets whizzing past your head.
Then scope misalignment should only happen when you’re suppressed. Even when no one is shooting at you and your stamina is at full bars you still aim like you’re 4 bottles of whiskey down and will miss your target and expose your position.
@@Lord_Tourettes Wtf is with these squad players saying 4 bottles of whiskey down? I have seen that exact comment so many times. Why is it always whiskey and why is the number always 4 bottles XD? It's like you guys are all the same person, stop parroting what you read on the internet.
I think that this update is step one in a very important information gathering process. We are inevitably going to have some growing pains as they try to figure out different strategies for achieving the goal of making firefights last. I would guess they tried to plan things out for a long time and hit a point where they couldn't theorize on it anymore and had to just jump in with a change so they could get player feedback to know what direction they need to go in. Hopefully more changes will come in the future that keep the longer gun fights but introduce better feeling gunplay. Whether OWI will succeed in both areas remains to be seen but I think this is a step in the right direction. Edit: If what I'm saying is accurate then OWI should come out and express all of this clearly so the player base understands whats going on so I think a lack of clear communication on the overall plan could be part of the problem here. If we knew this was for sure a temporary thing it would be a lot easier to deal with but right now we don't know 100% whether this is planned to always be the way gunplay works or not.
100%, i'm providing my personal feedback on this test. as i even mention in the video squad is going in the right direction and A+ for their effort. they just need to find an innovative way to retain the suppression/firefight feel without making gunplay feel floaty
It's not slow COD for you to get kills and have fun with aim. It's supposed to be difficult "squad" game for longer firefights and doing operations with your team. Now one man squad can delete entire enemy team and it should not be like this so they changed it.
Seems like the main issue is how quickly you gain stability. A simple test would be simply doubling the rate you gain stability and tune it from there if that is unbalanced. As for how well you maintain stability after gaining it? I don't know enough to guess on that. EDIT: doubling the rate you gain stability would also make the stability UI obsolete... meaning you can just remove that issue as players would never need to look at it.
I think toning down the recoil risks you running into issues where, like current squad, it's far too easy to get kills and be killed while doing things you should reasonably be punished for. I mean you show yourself sprinting frequently here and you are now punished for this. It's going to take time to adjust and as someone who isn't even a big fan of PR I have to say that the PRification of Squad like you talk about is obviously the biggest step in the right direction they could take right now, you talk about how the gunplay is sacrificed. How? How do you feel this way despite CQB becoming more engaging and long range firefights becoming more interesting and less frustrating. The gunplay is now completely conducive to the infantry firefights that squad should be focused on, and especially with Machine Guns now being able to fulfil their role I think this is easily the best change Squad has made since it released. One thing I would like to know, as a civilian, are there combat veterans who see this change as making the gun fall more in line with a high-stress combat environment or is it still far over the top. Regardless I think the changes should stand, without any real toning down.
im 100% willing to tradeoff the gunplay for the long engagements, thats what i always wanted in squad and these changes accomplish it nicely, while not ideal, the gunplay still is pretty good in my opinion
I totally get where you are coming from with the gameification of squad. In some respects old 2017 Squad is better than what we have today. With that being said, I think the changes will be positive in the long run.
5:00 in my opinion vehicles need an actual Xray damage model like in GHPC(GunnerHeatPC) War thunder or post scriptum it buffs vehicles but also nerfs them if you dont know where to hit an T-72 to kill it you will most likely take multiple shoot to kill it but if you know where to hit Lower Plate driver viewport or gunbreach area you cann either oneshot it or critical damage it a hit near the gunbreach will destroy the breach so you cant fire back and for those critical moduels the could also make it so you have to drive back to base to fully repair the gunbreach in the field you cann only repair it up to 50% but then there is a chance for miss fires and crew inside tanks should be killable to a Sabot round going through the side of an abrams will surely atleast take someone out
tldr: suppression good, gunplay bad. the point here is how these changes are polarizing for the community and the implementation feels wonky, good attempt tho
"the new infantry overhaul aims to achieve more immersive and longer lasting firefights, and in this venture they have completely succeded.
the firefight experience in squad is hands down objectively more engaging and immersive than before and for that i have to give OWI an A+ for their effort
In addition their picture in picture graphic effects are stunning and visually the game is looking fantastic
I love the direction that squad is going, however, there are a few problems i have regarding the the certain systems used to achive this result."
also check out youtube.com/@slorgs video to see the PR players perspective and a better understanding of these changes from that viewpoint th-cam.com/video/9iSLd3DOqfQ/w-d-xo.html
comments section literally proving my point on the polarization kekw
gunplay feels good supression feels good too, youre also trying to compare urself chilling on a range with going to battle and having the risk to die and getting shot back at lolz
@davidknekkerbrood9547 You'd be surprised how well a trained individual can shoot when your life depends on it, also when you play squad you are controlling a soldier not a joe that airsofts on the weekends.
@@davidknekkerbrood9547 The guns are swaying so much the stocks would have to be inside his face, combat stress can't put your gun into noclip mode
L take.
Throughout the video, your stamina was almost non-existent. This is why your weapon is not stable. OWI wants to remove the 'run and gun' meta. Stop running around, pick up your stamina, communicate with your teammates and engage fire when you're ready.
Project reality guy here. Absolutely love the changes. The overall feeling of the firefights and how much it changed the gameplay is insanely better. I saw random people yell "MOVE UP IM COVERING" I ran and for once I didnt immediately get shot in the face (a strange feeling). Teamwork is not essential but its a massive advantage, even if you manage to flank, good luck trying to kill more than a couple of people at close range by yourself.
You are also much more dependent on logistics now too.
Also agree on the vehicle/infantry balance and the motion blur and the recoil being a bit too much right now but it's all getting fine tuned. Give them some time.
Haven't been this hyped for a squad update in a while.
I'm with Nano, mainly because he usually gets shot in front of me first. Plus they could tone down the recoil just a tad, but keep the significant sway and PiP changes. Scoping is hard with 2x + the way it is IRL
@@Brother-Kavkaz LMAO, not famous and no drama, I actually agreed with Karmakut on the recoil.
Nano do you have a plan to upload another video of overhaul after this 2nd playtest?
The thing is Karma wants to eat a cake and have it too. "modern solution" what solution? you haven't said anything that would actually solve the issue, just that you want it solved. as i see it one has to be sacrificed to get the other one. either gunplay is floaty and clunky to allow prolonged firefights, suppression and fire and maneuvre tactics or its crisp and snappy but then it turns into whackamole of who aims at who first, which is what we currently have. You said it yourself, firefights feel so much better now. You sadly can't have everything at the same time. Sacrifice of gunplay for realistic outcome is a sacrifice i'm willing to take
I think he got bad at the game, got salty...
The update isn't even out for the major public to actually evaluate, PLUS, go watch Ukraine war footage, no soldier holds the gun properly, all of them are shitting their pants and documentaries like Korengal (2014) don't show US infantry with stellar shooting form also.
This update is GREAT don't change a thing.
As a Infantry vet, M240b for 101st, i agree the recoil and the feel of the gun in the infantry overhaul is spot on. great jobs to devs
do you think the suppression visuals look good? i've heard that getting shot at in real life creates a sort of tunnel vision, but in this squad update they just blurred the entire screen which looks like a step backwards to me
@@sauer3587 the thing is that feeling supressed is not something you visually see, its a mental state, the edge of your eyes dont actually turn dark and you dont see blurry, its just your mind focusing on certain things, ignoring the rest and creating that tunnel vision, which, is literally impossible to achieve in a game, since nobody is actually dying and there is no real risk to getting shot
@@viejitalocaI think the solution they have is fairly good, considering this - it blurs distant objects but keeps your immediate surroundings clear, so it *forces* you as the player to focus on what's immediately around you. They can't give you a specific mental state, but they can force you to act as though you do.
How do you feel about the sway?
@@viejitaloca This is the correct answer to this question.
Most of your points are good, but i have one small correction: the bars are NOT the same as in PR. You dont have to look at them, the bullets always go where your muzzle is pointing. So i would say it is in fact a better solution than PR, just overtuned.
Agreed, it’s annoying sometimes in PR when the dots are close enough, or so you think, and your shots don’t land on the guy who is 5m away. I like how squad does it better.
i get that they're different, but it still does encourage the player to watch dots instead of playing the game.
@@karmakut the dots are just a way of measuring how much your weapon will be swaying. You can obviously also see that in the sights themselves. They are helpful for seeing how certain actions effect sway but once you are familiar with it there is no reason to look at them
exactly, i dont see how that bar is even a problem, its just an extra visual representation of the inacurracy of the rifleman, even if those bars werent there, you could still see his inacurracy by looking at the sway of his arms and scope. and by complaining of that and how "immersive breaking" it is, you would also have to complain about that huge compass on the bottom
It looks like two testicles colliding rapidly. Not inmersive distracting and even anoying.
I noticed every time you were shooting and getting that terrible sway was because you ran entirely out of stamina. It is NOT that bad when you're moving slower into firefights and have a full stamina bar.
Which I find laughable because he literally has a video talking about “don’t sprint everywhere” which he literally does anyway lol
my frustration lies with the sight misalignment more than anything. i'm completely fine with punishment on 0 stam, but doing it with sight misalignment simply does not happen unless you do not shoulder the rifle at all
I have to agree with OP here in that your issues seem to stem from trying to move and shoot without regard for stamina or just how abrupt your movement is. You're moving and shooting like you would in regular squad.
You're effectively running your character to exhaustion, then trying to ADS and maintain a sight picture without taking a moment to get your bearings.
Took me the better part of a match to get my rhythm with this; really needing to consciously avoid trying to sprint straight into combat and avoid making extreme turns (where the gun can't keep up how fast I'm turning) when ADS. With that, I found that I had pretty reasonable aim, and could line up some pretty accurate shots.
@karmakut I have a good amount of experience with rifles IRL. When walking and looking down the sights of a magnified optic especially over 3x magnification it definitely does the same thing as in game. Same with recoil when firing quickly with magnified optics like that. We need to face that clunk in fact IS realism. In real life we don't just hold right click to hold a perfect sight picture. I personally love this change and think it's making squad much better
@@karmakut I can definitely understand that, I think the thing they were TRYING to go for, is the idea of you sprinting super hard and then like, hauling this gun into your sights. Is it perfect, no, not really. But I can understand how they would want to increase the firefight time like you said in the vid. It does make for less laser-beam fights and for a more 'immersive' experience. Maybe not entirely super realistic, but it is at least a longer exchange.
I think it will be more about just learning how to adapt to this mechanic (which will probably get reduced some) rather than needing to change it outright.
When getting shot at your mind tells you to shoot back while your instinct tells you to duck down behind cover. Its really hard to get sucked in the scope. While not ideal, I think the game simulates this pretty well.
i do like the suppression mechanic, aim punch like that is fine
Gameplay gotta come first tho. At the end of the day it’s a video game and realism is great but this seems too floaty to be real anyway. Not a vet but been on a paintball team and shot more steady than this without a sight while under fire
@helpumuch6887 of course, you just know it is not dangerous)
@@OleksandrLemberg very true
@@helpumuch6887 It IS for the gameplay. Right now there's literally no reason to not take a scoped weapon. Most of the weapon roster is just straight up useless and serves no role because scopes are completely and totally baby-mode.
I think there's been a consistent misjudging of the sway mechanics from people who are treating it like a range day - the player character is sprinting, for extended periods, while under fire. It's gonna be more difficult to shoulder and steady a rifle when you're out of breath, full of adrenaline, and staring down an enemy gun. You're not playing as some high-speed operator, you're a grunt on two hours of sleep who's probably about to die.
Also, the two main complaints are their own solutions - *don't* look at the deviation bars! Look at the gun itself swaying, look at the scope, how it's off-centre. You can see it right there. *That* is exactly the 'elegant, modern solution' that maintains immersion. This wasn't possible in PR, so I can see why PR vets would default back to just staring at deviation bars, but that's not a game problem, it's just something that needs getting used to over longer than a single playtest.
The point about 'lots of people never having fired a rifle' has its own counterpoint, which is that actual combat vets have responded more positively to the gunplay changes. It's not sport shooting, it's not fire and movement drills, it's not even an isolated firefight, it's war, and you're necessarily not gonna be performing as well as you could at the range.
Just wrote the same exact comment. +1
ur on point with it
100%
100%
"Airsoft cringelord" LMAO
Self awareness is the first step 😂
I need a timestamp
hard disagree with these takes. personally I find this to be a massive improvement in the gameplay and a very nice return to the PR roots I backed the game for.
i quite literally say they deserve an A+ for effort, and that i love the direction that squad is going, i also mention how squad has a brighter future than ever before, they just need to do it without sacrificing gunplay
@@karmakutyou quite literally are also just a glorified airsoft commando so stop acting like you know anything about a realistic firefight.
@@F80mthree And yet as he said, even he can control a real firearm better than the "Soldiers" in squad, this is something games do all too much, they make recoil obnoxious like I am shooting with a weak wrist, it's like the myth, the AK kicks like a mule, the AK is easy to shoot, it's just not very effective beyond 200-300 meters.
In short, we can control guns better in real life, than in games, recoil is a balancing mechanic, not a realism mechanic.
@@Rhinosaurfish I dont know anything about any of this but i just want to point out that Im sure karma wasn't being shot at or in the middle of a battlefield after running with 60+ pounds of gear? If im incorrect then my bad but im guessing those two things also needs to be brought up when talking about how squad simulates gunplay.
@@Rhinosaurfish how does he know that? Has he carried over 60 pounds of gear into a firefight with no stamina? No he hasn't.
I don't see how the PR deviation meter pulls you out of the experience. It's just a seamless non-intrusive HUD element which communicates the sway mechanics and feedback to your mouse movement. Its just like any other HUD element like the (also) non intrusive stamina bar. I also fail to see how the mechanic is regressive when PR's deviation was quite revolutionary, although had its gamified limitations. Plus Squad's implementation is slightly different, it utilizes animation sway instead of a true deviation relative to your scope crosshair. I'm pretty sure the meter is there to help explain the mechanic to newcomers and also win back the PR crowd. Win-win.
would be nicer if they cut it completely out of the UI. I'd like an option to disable it atleast. Also I don't think there's that many left in the PR crowd that aren't already either playing squad or something else.
@@marcusfanning7513I'll be honest I struggle to actually see the deviation bar moving unless I'm actively looking at it, but that's just me. Especially since it's on top of an already actively moving compass HUD element.
@@GreenSinic its already something you can visibly see just by looking where your characters aiming at. If they're shaking their gun around, deviation = high, else, deviation = low. No need to have an annoying HUD element that made sense in PR when you couldn't represent it with the aim shaking. The whole point of the bar in PR was literally as a substitute for the characters aim shaking, something that wasn't possible at the time. Now that we have the real thing why are we still using the shitty substitute?
deviation bars are less of a concern of mine than the scope/sight misalignment
@@karmakut gotcha. i figured it was just a super minor gripe. still a great video btw
I would argue with your rifle stabiliziation point. Have you tried shooting a chest sized target from a 100 meters while standing? 10-25 meters is not that hard but stabilizing for a 100 meters especially after you sprinted a little is damn hard.
yea right? i dont think that trying to shoot something after jogging 6 miles while carrying 25kg of gear is gonna be very easy
im fine with that for the most part, the biggest gripe i have is with the sight misalignment which very literally does not happen unless you are not shouldering the rifle at all.
@@karmakut well, in combat, soldiers sometimes don't shoulder their weapons at all.
@@sleepylion9788 I've never heard of this. literally all US infantry soldiers are trained to shoulder the weapon so much that it becomes instinctual.
@@sleepylion9788 in certain situations, like if they are surprised by an enemy while being preoccupied, I could imagine they would accidently aim their weapon up without shouldering it in a panic, but as far as I know, this would only happen in certain situations, and it most likely isn't an actual common occurrence that happens in combat (maybe)
In reality, you don't shoot from static positions. In reality, you're not going to have years of experience at the range. In reality you will have to contend with fatugue, distraction, loud noises, movement of your own body, obstructed vision, tunnel vision, suppression, and fear for the dear life.
Also - no, you cannot accurately shoot past 50 feet while moving.
Oof
@@ControlledPairsGaming Care to elaborate? Out of interest, considering your own experience.
Also, what is your general take of the new Infantry Overhaul?
It feels like the gun mechanics exist as a way to compensate for the point and click nature of shooter mechanics.
Kinda like how Mechwarrior has to double all the armour values from tabletop because once you let players point and click they're gonna *point and click* real good. It's hard to abstract it out while still making things feel realistic.
in a "mil-sim" like what squad wants to be, i believe having better firefights at the cost of better gunplay is 100% justified and actually good for the game and for the people that come to play it because its sold as that mil sim successor of pr, if you want better gunplay, running and gunning, jumping around corners and 360 no scope headshotting with the m24 then go play call of duty, battlefield, battlebit or the other thousands of arcade shooters there is in the market
I feel the same. I much prefer this because firefights become....actual firefights. Not nearly as much scenarios where dudes just 180 and just one shot you, actual firefights with people getting in cover, suppressing and flanks.
You can accomplish this without making the gun play dog shit. They can back off like 50% on this and I think it’ll work. But this is god-awful as it stands even though it ups the shit show factor 10,000% which is exactly what you want.
i quite literally say they deserve an A+ for effort, and that i love the direction that squad is going, i also mention how squad has a brighter future than ever before
make guns handle well. make suppression really strong. and i think you can achieve both. Playing Squad your RPing as a trained soldier or operator. You should be able to hold a gun correctly.
No one wants cod-like gunplay in squad, and current pre overhaul patch gunplay looks nothing like cod
I love the prospect of it, I want them to keep it up
right direction, wrong execution imo.
@@karmakut Why dont you leave a little constructive criticism on how you can improve these things in another way.
@@88balloonsonthewall70 remove/reduce recoil/sway changes, keep the suppression changes
@@88balloonsonthewall70hmmm.....it's almost like we're on a 6 minute video in which he does just that 🤔
@@karmakut I agree, I suppose I meant the prospect of them trying to return to roots, I'd rather them continue with this direction then go back, even if it takes a while to iron it out
Squad could balance vehicles by:
1. Not forcing AT to load a rocket every time they pull out the launcher, just leave the rocket that was loaded in last in the weapon. That animation is no longer needed for balance because sway creates a sufficiently long downtime between pulling out the weapon and shooting on its own.
2. Reworking vehicles to a modular damage system like War Thunder, Enlisted, or Post Scriptum to make vehicles be more threatened by anti-tank weapons, maybe along with thermal sights for appropriate vehicles to make it harder to sneak up on vehicles
Also, simply giving AT soldiers more rockets. It feels a little weak having only one rocket against tanks.
@@thesultan6635 idk about that one, giving them more ammo would incentivize them to run off and lonewolf. Limited ammo forces them to work in a team with rifleman to be effective
@@thesultan6635 I think less Rockets is fine, but a better damage system is necessary to make that rocket be more effective. Studying vehicle weak points and where ammo, crew, engines are located would pay off. I hate the make the comparison but it's basically what War Thunder and Enlisted have.
If your aim is good and you know where to hit, that rocket should mess up the vehicle. Instead of what it is now and where you just vaguely aim for the flanks of vehicles, or at best, the tracks or engine. Things like the crew sitting in vehicles, exterior sights and periscopes, gun barrels, etc. should all be modeled and target-able. Even a LAT could seriously mess up an MBT with a good shot and proper positioning. But for balance they would have a weapon which is more difficult to make those shots with (which is how it is in game already since most LATs dont have scopes on their rocket launchers)
THIS PLEASE OWI!
I'm not really sure, these changes are the only time motorised and mechanised infantry has ever had benefits in my tests because the vehicles are no longer just liabilities to lead around and ticket bleeds, it's pretty good.
I think the damage model is good for the casual players, any more realistic and tanks will appear invincible to those that don't understand dual angle of velocity, spalling, armour thickness and projectile penetration and where the crew and components sit in each vehicle. Realism will only strengthen AND weaken vehicles based on a multiplicity of variables, most players want to see a tank burst into flames every time, as if the fuel and ammunition is just everywhere and ready to pop.
I'd just love a hardcore mode that servers can switch on, with these infantry settings and more realistic vehicle damage, higher ticket costs, longer respawns etc, give both playerbases a community to be in rather than funneling them all together.
I've shot a lot of automatics.... looks reasonable.... and there is a difference between shooting a target at the range and people shooting back at you..... I'd image with bullets whizzing over your head finding that sight picture is a lot harder..... I like less lasers
no offence but you probably haven't had a lot of proper training on how to shoot. the recoil/sway the guns have are kind of ridiculous. the stock of an m4 isn't going to leave your shoulder from automatic fire, and you cheek wouldn't leave the stock.
@@specialist4566 im assuming you have been shot at before and been in firefight engagements?
@@jayjohnson-t2y bro this is not a "gotcha" argument. it doesn't change the fact that shooting in Squad is at least somewhat exaggerated compared to real life. i dont know if you people have noticed, but if you go on the flat range in squad ... get this, the gunplay stays the same. there is no mechanic that affects gunplay while being shot at besides the suppression mechanics w/ viewpunch that have dropped. this groupthink gaslighting is ridiculous bro.
@@jayjohnson-t2ywhat a bad argument 😂
The thing about realism in videogames, is that I feel there ultimately is an eternal struggle between individual realism, and collective realism.
Let me break that down for those whom may not understand the differences between those terms.
Individual Realism comes down to things like, how fast a loaded down infantryman can sprint. How long he can sprint for, how long it takes him to catch his breath, how he handles his recoil, how well he can keep his sight aligned. A good, well-trained and well-rehearsed rifleman can ideally shoot, move, and communicate at a modest-high level of proficiency. Obviously you want the maximum level of proficiency possible, but budget and things like that, factor into how much the individual soldier actually gets to train, so we'll keep things simple.
Collective Realism is how all of those individual aspects interact within the overarching game/experience as a whole. Collective Realism, is what this update is trying to address. The base level, is the gunplay. The collective experience, is the firefight. They're interconnected, but maximum individual realism, does not inherently equal high collective realism.
We see this play out in ArmA A LOT. There's a lot of recoil, suppression, AI, and other mods that can create an immersive (albeit clunky) experience. Even down to realistic recoil patterns for rifles. But there's no actual features, built into the game, that keep the player from overcoming these barriers. Once the shock of hearing loud snaps and cracks from a really good sound mod passes, or you learn that you can still shoot accurately even when your screen is blurred out from suppression, it becomes a non-factor, or at least, minor enough to not play a significant enough role in the overarching experience. So, within the confines of a Milsim community, in which everyone is buying into the larp, it works well. Because everyone wants to play along.
In a game like Squad however, especially for the average player who does not play in organized events, you need things built into the game that prevent players from simply learning how to (in a very gamey fashion), skirt the effects of suppression and even flinching. This is where collective vs individual realism comes into play.
It may be less realistic for me, an average rifleman, to have difficulties aligning my sight or controlling the recoil of my rifle. But the effect, is that the firefights are better. Maybe there is a solution in which both can equally be increased, but I have never seen a game that implements maximum individual realism, and maximum collective realism. Even with Squads floaty recoil before this change, it was just very... Gamey. I found it very easy to just pop people from hundreds of yards away. Machine Gunner? No problem, if I have an ACOG. Perhaps it was realistic that I would be able to accurately engage those people from the distance I was, within an ACOG, but the effect was that the firefights were kinda lackluster. My point is that I don't think the gunplay is necessarily bad, it's just different. Not because they think it's authentic, but because it plays into creating a more authentic experience at the macro-level.
I think some of the suppression effects, for rifles specifically, are played up too high. And I disagree with things like blurring every time you fire the weapon, but I think the tweaks that need to be made in order to make this a serviceable system are minor and it's definitely a step in the right direction, for folks who are looking for an improved firefight and squad-play system. There are things that will be different. RAAS will not be able to be played as it was before, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.
Just trying to rationalize what a lot of people who enjoy/look forward to this update, including the gunplay, are thinking and thanks for reading my TED Talk.
decent take tbh
Basically summed my take up. It's not realism that's the issue. It's the amount of realism that you can reasonably have in a Team vs Team environment while also pursuing the vision that the Squad devs have. This might not be the most realistic version of an individual soldier [Although it is more realistic than Squad used to be for a soldier in a firefight] but it is the more realistic version of firefights in general. I feel like having some kinda fire and maneuver is actually a viable option rather than finishing fights in 20 seconds because every player on each time is as accurate as their mouse allows them to be, under no effects of the firefight itself
great analysis
@@karmakut Don't get me wrong, I would prefer a game in which we had maximum both. Authentic recoil and movement at the individual level, while still maintaining authenticity when it comes to firefights. I'm sure there is a way, but I'm doubtful anyone will put enough effort into finding/implementing such methods into a game.
Here's hoping someone a hell of a lot smarter than all of us comes along and plops something perfect down at our feet someday.
I personally love it and cannot even play OG squad anymore after playing the changes on the test server
50 meters isn't enough, run until you get winded, then try body discipline with breathing.
I can remember being surprised the first time I fired a Steyr AUG on auto in the standing at the spread pattern from a 3 to 5 round burst despite being a decent shooter in any supported positions.
Like someone else comented, I feel like you are not thinking straight about everything here. Its not supposed to be Call of Duty or Battlefield, like being able to be acurate while running and being shot at. The mechanics are great, the hud thing is not PRs one, and you dont have to look at it, just like stamina bar or character stance, its just there for information purpose. You can be accurate while steady and not suppressed, making engagements more realistic and better overall. About the people who got to used to what Squad has become, well, it was not supposed to be like that, if you dont like the realism we are about to get there are countless arcade options out there, let Squad be The Squad we deserve.
im not asking for it to be cod or battlefield lol
@@karmakut Not saying you did, just saying its not supposed to be like them.
Lmao he explained how it's not realistic enough, and the implementation is wrong, and your response is to back to battlefield? 😂wtf is wrong with these people
@@QSauce It seems you ignored the whole post, and his explanations are open to debate.
@@BRAdriel10 I didn't ignore your whole post, it seems like you ignored Karma's argument which is that the current recoil isn't realistic. Saying "it's not supposed to be cod" is just ignorant because it's obvious he never suggested it should be anything like that.
Hard disagree with you on these changes feeling bad. Maybe stop sprinting into firefights out of stamina and getting caught. Of course aiming down a scope in that situation is going to be harder.
Walking and shooting is hard. Try having full stamina and standing still I had no issues with the systems, maybe tweak them a little and sort some bugs. But you're just complaining about being out of stamina and walking, strafing and trying to shoot people over 50 meters away.
You can, at a range with no kit on and under your own conditions shoot better I don't doubt it. But these are soldiers being given three round burst M4's they aren't good enough to be given m4a1 block II's, suppressors and high cut helmets. We aren't playing operators who can walk, strafe and shoot well simultaneously which is actually a challenging thing not many typical infantry can pull off. Yet at the range in game at 10-50 meters it's actually really easy still to be fair.
Edit: I do think it's exaggerated but in a good way, we as players are super soldiers given the chance. We ignore fatigue and make impossible shots all the time, the exaggeration on sway and eye relief struggles is definitely a better solution than random deviation and the recoil/blur/etc is spot on.
At least this way your rounds still impact at your actual point of aim/crosshair, it's just difficult to aim when out of stamina and not already ready, aiming, and set up. It empowers defensive people ready and fully rested vs people running into the fray and snap head-shotting everybody around them unopposed. It encourages suppression, aiming for center of mass, and holding your fire so more team members can get a line of sight and assist because one man can't do it alone anymore. Maybe it's over tuned, but even still I have no issues hitting impossible shots still.
i think you have a grave misunderstanding with how basic firearms function and the competency of a trained soldier, not even "special operator"
@@karmakut I agree but I believe he's trying to talk about the god identity it used to give you before
I get what you mean but if squad or any other game were 100% like real life then we wouldn’t be doing half the things we can in game
It's way too exaggerated rn needs to be toned down a bit
@@karmakut uh not to be rude but I've seen "trained solders" laughing about how hard it is to walk and shoot when trying it out at a range and fucking it up a bunch.
Personally love how they're going. Some things need to be tuned a little, but that's the point of a test.
Seems like with some tweaks thru community feedback they could get this just right.
@@mashattack551 💯
I like it , I dont like when a ''realistic'' game make me feel like a super soldier. Now I can suppress in peace without getting 1 tapped from 300m away
I actually loved these changes and felt like my immersion and teamplay was elevated.
I think if you’re dealing with all the shit that comes with fighting for your life, the mental stress, the adrenaline in your veins, the physical stress of trekking in adverse conditions and setting your body up in weird stances and uncomfortable positions to break shots at the enemy, you’re probably not pulling A zone shots off like you would be on the range. This gun handling looks like most conventional infantry combat videos that folks like me and you can enjoy from the comfort of our heated and AC cooled homes. It needs a little tweaking, but to say this was one step forward two steps back seems very unreasonable.
Hemm... no. Soldiers train again and again shooting in akward positions to well... fight in akward positions, wich happens most of the time.
I mean you can look up combat vidoes from the gwot of regular grunts. When they fire, the gun doesn't look like it has a stick of butter on the stock. It's pulled in to the shoulder and when they fire rapidly the gun doesn't move that much. The guns feel like when I was 7 trying to shoot a mosin nagant.
You’re right
I dont care how tired and fatigued and scared ive been. Ive NEVER once in my life put my rifle stock in my mouth mid firing. That is actually unexcusable.
@@flokejm3904 You are focusing on the process and not the outcome. The truth is that FPS especially on mouse/keyboard have gunplay that is way more accurate than in reality. The gun sways more than in reality but the end result is not that different.
In most FPS games including old Squad, 400 meters+ is easy kills. In reality, most shots at 400 meters will miss, especially if the shooter is running into a firing position. How do you represent that in-game to the player without weird behaviors like overly swaying guns?
>Complains how the weapons sways and how the sight pictures doesn't stay still
>Says that not how it works
>Bring up experience "Check notes" Shooting gun at a range, using vr, and using air soft as examples
>Meanwhile the footage shows you running and aiming while getting shot at
>Lol, lmao
A guy with, let’s say some experience here. The gunplay is on point, the best i’ve seen in a videogame. If you want to make it easier choose a colimator or iron sight over a magnified optic
I agree and i think that was the point of this update. So scopes ISN'T the default, always best option. It is seriously a very difficult choice sometimes between running iron/red dot vs scope.
Currently squad is pretty much composed of 90% of players running scopes and I seriously hate it. If you don't have a scope, it puts you at a dramatic and very noticeable disadvantage. This update drastically levels the playing field and introduces hard tradeoff decisions.
i mean, what else are they supposed to do? their trying to force realism by making it a little over the top because players were too good in the vanilla squad, getting 40+ kills as a single infantryman some rounds. This is the only way to make players not be able to play the game like a run and gun fps like it has been the past 2-3 years. There really is no other way, you either let it become arcadey or you force realism by making it over the top, it always end up becoming either.
If you say there is a better way, and you clearly have worked on addressing gameplay issues through modding in the past, then you should include suggestions. (Now is the time to do it, as they're running tests, after all)
Anyone can say "it's bad", and "there has to be a better way". And I'm unironically sure you must have some ideas on how to improve it. Why not mention any?
remove or drastically reduce recoil/sway changes, keep suppression changes
@@karmakut I found this to feel better in the second playtest but it felt like they made it too easy. They are doing a good job because its only the playtest but I think between what the first and second playtest had would be cool.
I definitely get the point about worsening the gunplay. But what would be the better solution? My beloved arma has pretty shitty gunplay, tarkov wouldn't work here either so what would? Right now at least it looks immersive as hell. I like to think of it as if we're playing as a regular not-to-well trained infantryman carrying a heavy backpack and tired from running. So he needs a moment to steady his breathing. Plus the adrenalin of a real firefight, I believe, can't be even remotely compared to a range shooting.
remove recoil + sway changes or drastically tone them down, keep suppression changes
@@karmakut so make the game run and gun again? These kind of changes where heavily needed to prevent people from clicking on heads. There isn't a way to level out peoples reaction times since moving and handling a rifle is significantly more difficult than just moving a mouse. The recoil system could be toned down, however it needs to stay for team play to be more viable. Full auto should essentially be useless in most situations and making it more situational improves the feel of combat.
@@Fatallydisorganized you can't click on heads when being suppressed with this new suppression system
@@karmakut you shouldn't be able to click on heads period. Aiming center mass should be encouraged instead of headshots because of the new systems. Headshots should be reserved for maeksman and snipers not for the average joe.
@@Fatallydisorganized none of the changes in this update make it impossible or even more difficult to click heads if you are able to hit center mass. The times you're getting headshot are either someone getting the drop on you or being in a better position. Even though this update is designed as a crutch for players who are worse at shooting, it's not going to change the veteran players stomping on the newer ones. It just forces people to play more with their squad and lone wolf less.
How else can you slow down the game without literally slowing down gun play. It'd be great if you had any suggestions. Feels like an impossible ask otherwise. Also are we going to really ignore the hundred unrealistic things in squad and complain that the slow aiming is unrealistic?
honestly i think they'd be in a decent spot if they just kept the suppression changes and removed the recoil/sway changes
@@karmakut Wouldn’t that make rifles laser beams and shorten firefights in return?
I think worse gunplay is required in a game like to enhance the firefight. Fundamental FPS stuff seeps in to easily, peaker's advantage, previous map knowledge, prefiring popular well known spots and just how skilled people are at clicking heads is too invasive. If a guy's got a corner locked down after awkwardly shouldering it, he should an overwhelming advantage imo.
real life ain't fair, thats how it works.
Rifle stocks going into your mouth while firing is beyond dumb
Yep. It's a corner camping patch.
@@53Stratin real life infantry can actually aim and fire while moving.
@@53Stratin real life some people have better aim than others.
idimagine deviation bars just being toggle-able, theyre kinda cosmetic as bullets still go where barrel is pointing at
PR vet and IRL shooter here - It is jarring, especially the very initial ADS in some cases, and it looks exaggerated from the first-person perspective indeed. But please consider how ridiculously easy it is to aim with a mouse vs manipulating a gun in your hands. In vanilla Squad, you can easily beat world-record shots and times on the range first try. There is just no difficulty to it; it is not anywhere as challenging as it is in real life to accomplish the same thing. I would say, that in order to achieve a realistic shooting difficulty that reflects real-world engagements, so long as we are using M&KB, the screen has to shake and sway A LOT. Otherwise, it truly is as simple as point-and-click. It is not aesthetically pleasing, but damn, it's closer to the real thing than I've ever seen.
As an experiment, watch Jerry Miculek pop 4 targets at 400 yards with an AR and then try to replicate that in the new update. I can still beat him in-game. A world-class shooter. We're calling the new update wildly inaccurate etc etc, but I don't think we can say that until we directly compare the results and not just how it feels.
Other than maybe agreeing recoil can be toned down a tad, I think it's an exaggeration to say it's 2 steps back when it's already better than the current build overall. They can tweak the little things, but otherwise this is definitely the direction to go.
i agree as mentioned in the video, the direction and effort is A+ where it needs to go, but i do disagree with how heavily gunplay is sacrificed here
Positive changes but would tweak as such:
1. Gun is never at the ready but pointed at ground. Click once and it's up for hip fire and now ready, start increasing exhaustion level very slowly. The gun can be maintained at the hip for 10 minutes before reaching maximum exhaustion. Bringing gun up to hip is extremely quick (less than half a second?).
2. Right click and gun sights are up, increase exhaustion at double the rate of hip fire. Time to bring gun sights up only a tiny bit slower than hip fire (less than a second). Accurately acquiring a target will take longer based on exhaustion/stance.
3. Introduce breathing noise based on exhaustion level, make it an ambient sound, not loud but to add to the grit of the battle, also enemies that are very close may also hear it.
4. Introduce movement of only gun (not the entire screen) mainly in the vertical axis, sync'd with breath noise.
5. Vertical gun movement proportional to exhaustion.
6. Time for initial stable sighting period range based on stance and exhaustion.
7. Hold breath can be used but exhaustion also increases quickly when in use, and use time of hold breath exponentially shortened based on current level of exhaustion.
8. When firing, have a recoil effect proportional to exhaustion/stance - the more rounds you fire in quick succession, the more quickly you'll be exhausted. Hearing your character at full exhaustion by heavy breathing may not be very realistic but allows for the player to get used to how exhaustion works without having to pay attention to another mini on screen mechanic the tracts.
9. Have two top exhaustion levels. The first when you've reached exhaustion which can happen pretty quickly based on your consecutive activities - at this level full aim penalties are felt and this level of exhaustion can be maintained for a full few minutes.
The second, absolute maximum level of exhaustion when reached, has your character lower their gun to gun to hip fire and your character can be heard nearly gasping for breath. Aim penalties remain the same but can't go to sights until exhaustion levels go back under the first top level state of exhaustion.
Obviously these changes would need to be fleshed out but I believe these changes will make the gun feel more responsive and tighter on the shoulder initially. The changes try to gamify some real world elements such as stance/exhaustion that effect aiming.
The new scoped mechanics will only be really noticeable as exhaustion becomes more pronounced.
@dm-_Mr_Karmakut you're the gift the keeps giving 😏😆
I mean... you know the mechanics that they changed, and on those clips you are still running and shooting, sometimes with a 4x
On this clip 2:34 it seems that ur stamina was half way, u were sprinting with your gun lowered, turned right has someone was shooting you and started an auto before the weapon was on target. So it's very realistic and different from the shooting range you are comparing to.
Also the level of adrenaline you have in the gun range would be nothing compared to being in an actual firefight.
realism is when you're sucking on the stock eh? even if i'm winded from a 5 mile run, under fire, etc, it is impossible for this perspective in that clip to even occur unless stock is PHYSICALLY in my mouth. pause the that clip and imagine where your head would be as each shot is fired, you'll understand what i mean
It really isn't. It's a meme at this point. Hardcore shooters have created a fictional conception of realism.
"bloody screen" "So REAL"
@@karmakut i think youre complaining about the graphical representation then and not the actual gameplay mechanic. its like an EMT complaining about bandages reviving people in the game. sure, they can tone it down. but it feels like making a mountain out of a molehill when youre looking at the wrong molehill. the point still stands that you fucked up on that hill and were punished, and thats okay.
@@karmakut could be that also in the middle of all that, you were also mid crouching.
I don't say the system is perfect, most likely has direction limitations can take some tweak, each weapon differently we can only expect it to get better, but that said, you also get unrealistic response when u you give an unrealistic input, you wouldn't, sprint, turn, aim, crouch and shoot accurately at all while being shot at.
Hey man, I love your videos and from an outside view, I think it's ones of those cases that u will grow to love it as you play it.
Everybody talking about gunplay and firefight experience, but no one is talking about teamwork and playing the objective. It's already hard as it is to educate new players on playing for the team, and we are at a low number. If this game has to be a 400 players base game, so be it. Squad, despite many flaws and lack of optimizations for everyone, was at the same time fun and serious. I don't want to play PR or new Battlefield, I just want to play Squad.
exactly. The games will bog down in to slogs, and all these people talking about how awesome it is to not be able to shoot semi accurately in a video game, will get bored of the spectacle and go and play cod or battlefield or whatever fucking video game it is that has satisfying mouse clicking
Polarizing? AM i missing something? Most people majority in support of the new changes
>runs around trying to run&gun
>runs into a guy at 50% stamina
>gets killed because of new mechanic
>ruins the game because devs listen to players like you
Ty cigan
Out here thinking that knocking out all your teeth is a good immersive mechanic
I like the new update, at allows for more gameplay personality and less run run shoot / this makes tension more relevant
I'm so glad you uploaded this. It seemed like I was the only one who disliked how the new recoil, sway, and "Floaty" weapon handling.
Karmakut have you ever tried to fire a rifle after running? when you are tired? have you done live drills not on a flat range? moving and shooting and hitting your targets is very difficult, especially on uneven terrain, and also add someone shooting at you, unless you are some SOF war vet, i have a hard time believing you will shoulder you fire arm and aim quickly at the enemy and HIT him, I know cases soldiers fired 15 shots at an enemy from 15 meters and hit only 2, stress, surprise, fatigue, are all impacting your shooting, the update seems very good and true to real life, some tweaks are needed but its great, VR does not carry over IRL shooting well, Airsoft is great but at the end of the day its BB guns with no recoil, it seem the devs spoke to vets while making this update.
"Im able to get a rifle online and more stable than my character in game" in a 100% controlled environment where you havent been sprinting miles and/or being shot at and bombarded while your adrenaline is pumping
The only thing i agree with you is that the sway of the gun should be decrease, but thats what the playtest is for. Also, there is no polarizing in the comunity, the only ones that are not aproving the update is the ones that play squad like it is COD.
Yeah but many like the way that it was... and even then it is WORLDS away from COD.
I'm looking forward to the new mechanics being updated, but as we know, fine tuning still needs to occur first.
yea, it is pretty polarizing. people can't decide if they like it a lot or love it a lot
Meh, normally I see your views as spot on with mine but this video comes off super complainy.
To avoid this offer possible solutions to your complaints. Sad to see you release a video like this.
You absolutely ignored the fact that the soldier was totally out of breath when you are shooting, has you said, you are yourself a beginner in shooting, try to run 2km then immediately shooting in full auto
As someone who has experience shooting butt stock AKs IRL would say the sway mechanism is very realistic. Especially when you're carrying heavy and trying to shoot while moving. I agree that the M4s sway mechanism is over-exaggerated and should be way less than stock AKs.
The infantry overhaul in Squad has sparked a heated debate in the community.
The two clips at around 2:35 show you with really low stamina meaning you were coming out of sprints and taking those shots
In this case the devs are trying to get rid of a gameplay style you were doing there.
Gameplay>realism.
Plus I’d like to see you do a full sprint until you couldn’t anymore and try and look down an acog. Something tells me it’d be really hard in a full kit
The problem karma has is the scope misalignment regardless of his stamina
@@archer1133 which was done for gameplay reasons. It discourages run and gun type of play.
It’s really not even that bad having played the PT myself. The trick is to not play the PT like the current live squad version
it is polarizing because the cod players didnt like it
I like your content, been following, and will continue following obviously. But, trust me, saying that you can ALWAYS align an optic after some stress and exhaustion… it is some ghostbusters thing lol
@@systembeard6959 that is because magnified optics like the trijicon he is using at the game are harder to align than a collimator/iron sights, obviously a sniper scope like S&B pmII is much even harder, that plus. Complete exhaustion, not comfortable gear, not comfortable position, stress makes it harder to shoot with it, i actually use that optic in a hk417 i know what i talk about, and thanks for teaching me what a stock is hahah
@@Fanboy27-dn6sy the clip where i talk about the stock being in my mouth is with a collimator if you couldn't tell
They just need to turn the sway down a little and it'll be perfect.
agreed, drastically tune down sway/recoil + retain suppression and i'm happy
Karma no hate here. Just an honest question.
But do you think you may have some negative bias against the changes do to your work on your custom arma server and the possibility of the overhaul siphoning off some
of the players from your server back to squad?? It may even be subconscious negative bias and nothing intentional. You have put a TON of work into your mod and it would be completely understandable if you do.
Because anecdotally, myself and the vast majority of the people I play with regularly on squad REALLY enjoyed the changes on the test server.
i think people equate me critiquing and providing feedback regarding the test to shitting on squad, suppression is actually better, gunplay (from someone who has shot a rifle) feels objectively worse. even at the end of the video i mention how the future is brighter for squad than ever before.
My guy, the arma players on Karma’s server are die hard players. It’s not the same playerbase at those point. We like arma 💪
@@karmakutFair enough. Love your work regardless.
To be honest, I stopped paying attention to the stability indicator after a few minutes. The actual sway of the gun is what I was watching to judge accuracy of my shots, I never felt confident firing off when the gun was swaying heavily unless I had to return snap shots or suppress an enemy trying to suppress me. I agree that the gun stock is moving too much when aiming down the sights.
Bro is getting ratio’d in these comments oml
I don’t think we have a better solution to the stability icon system right now that doesn’t result in run and gun gameplay becoming viable again. If you go to a system with just increased weapon sway, then people can still can do those 180 degree flick shots that no one wants in squad. Conversely if you have deviation like in PR, then you have janky gunplay where bullets don’t go where you’re aiming at. Someone smarter might have a solution to this problem but honestly, this might be the best solution we have right now even if it sucks somewhat
I’m just glad open top light vehicles are finally useful.
Respect for leaving partner program after micro transactions
I feel like I was pulled in to the combat way more, and I'm ready to come back it's been a year or more for me too.. This was a step in the right direction, and I'm glad I'm still alive to play it
I think entire gunplay, the sway, blur, time to ads was cranked all the way up during first playtest, now they just dial it back and find a sweet spot.
I remember running round in Helmand in 2008 carrying 60 pounds of kit in 40 degree heat. Trust me, firing your weapon isn’t as easy as you think.
by making it more difficult to shoot they have made it more realistic. I'm sorry but when you get into an unexpected firefight with someone that's fifteen feet away you're not going to shoulder and sight unhindered. It's going to be messy its going to be sloppy its going to be everything but smooth. Just might have to pick squad back up
I’ve seen some brutal real life footage of close gunfights, yes it’s messy and a lot of bullets will miss.
i love this update it makes the game sooo much more fun
Idk, I think it feels and looks more real, rather than shooting in a controlled situation at a firing range. This kinda captures that panicked shouldering. If you don’t stop and slow yourself to actually shoulder your rifle. You’re gonna shoot like shit.
No one outside of a third world militia is holding an AK or AR out in front of themselves with the stock directly in front of their face
If they keep gun play tight you will always be able to pop up and one tap someone, and firefights will never feel good. This is taking pr's seemingly hopelessly inaccurate weapons and updating them by showing why you can't hit anything. I think it's the best solution they can find to slow down firefights
In all your examples you’re out of stamina, that’s why you can’t aim, you’re not supposed to run and gun
The sway seems legit to me man. In most cases soldiers aren’t even aiming down sights they just need to get rounds off. At a range you don’t have bullets whizzing by you .
@karmakut yo all good you using my footage but I wish you'd asked me first instead of just stealing it 😅
totally understand, you have some really good takes from a PR player perspective. your video is a fantastic breakdown from that viewpoint and better explains that mindset th-cam.com/video/9iSLd3DOqfQ/w-d-xo.html
@@karmakutcheers man you make some great points here also it's made me think
To a degree I agree with the issues raised: though I think the answer is tuning, and everyone I asked during PT said the same. Suppression is I think almost perfect, recoil is reasonably close, gun the time to get a stable aim is too long (by 30-40%) and the focus/blur when changing optics is a little too long (25% say). My suspicion is that they left all the tuning parameters at the "highest reasonable values" to make it _really_ obvious for feedback on what needs tuning, otherwise it'd be harder to understand the impact. I took me a good 2 hours before I got used to it and stopped noticing it.
For sure gun is still too wobbly: ADS should reduce wobble quicker, but Shift should also be tuned up to more of an additional focus/control bonus.
Definitely infantry vs armour is quite different, but in the PT the difference was most noticable in that MATV, TIGR or BTR type vehicles were much more useful (former you don't get shot out instantly), however mostly in a reasonable way, back towards them being important tools. My thought there is they'll likely balance it both by tuning inf. combat. so that LAT/HAT is a bit easier to use, and then perhaps slight buffs to LAT against light vics and APCs (it was, they nerfed it a while back).
Also, I've always wondered if they could allow for "C" for resting non-bipod weapons in the same situations, it'd gain a limited bonus at reducing sway quicker, may be a little recoil control? Giving players more options.
I enjoyed it, but I'm biased, rate it 8/10 as-is, and further tuning should get it to 9/10.
Being able to deploy your weapon against structures like in Arma would be pretty nice. It would further encourage groups to analyze their situation and fight for good positions that give control over the area they want
I think a lot of the gameplay issues are driven by bad players. Every once in a blue moon, you join a server that has two teams with good tactics, good coms, and good squad leaders. When this happens, it's fun as hell. But there's not much a dev can do to force people to use teamwork. That comes down to the individual. Maybe the more hardcore direction the game is going will weed out these run-and-gun KDR chasers.
One way could be to enforce roles via squad specializations. There should be a dedicated pilot squad, mechanized infantry squads (Bradley’s, BMP’s, LAV’s, and etc ) with a minimum player count of 5, dedicated tank squads, and the rest (they get trucks, humvees, mraps, and etc). I believe HLL did this and this led to the vehicles being used more properly
@@Stealingiscaring id be for that
The new mechanics make it much harder to run and gun around solo. It's harder to aim and shoot enemies and they can easily suppress you and throw off your aim. You run slower and can't lean spam either. You die so quickly when alone that you naturally stick with the rest of your squad. The test server was the first time I saw a firing line of players advancing through a forest to clear out enemies and not get immediately mowed down. The suppression makes you maneuver around the enemy thus improving communication.
In short: You are heavily incentivized to stick with your squad and communicate with them to win firefights.
How else would you encourage 50 random people to work together though? This is, after all a game, and do you think unrealistic game elements being used to encourage overall realistic gameplay is worth it?
Honestly I disagree completely about the recoil reverting back to the old system would completely negate everything else that makes this update great hopefully the squad devs listen to the whole community instead of trying to please content creators.
im not asking to return to the old style of gameplay, im asking for the rework to not sacrifice gunplay to this extreme. i love the new suppression and hope its kept in with a few changes
@@karmakutMy point is reverting back to the old recoil system without sway and stamina deviation effect would just lead to the same tap fire bs we're all excited to step away from and judging by the actual combat veterans in the comments of multiple videos is an accurate portrayal of firefights or atleast much closer than before. Plus try getting a great cheek weld on a rifle while you've just ran 2 minutes with 70lbs of gear, plate carrier and backpack there's a reason you see soldiers just shouldering the tail of the stock when in full kit. Dialing the recoil down by maybe 10-15% would be okay but it's definitely not super necessary in my opinion.
As a Kickstarter backer I installed and uninstalled Squad for like 8 times over the years, gunplay mechanics are/were THE LEAST of issues for me, as a solo player I did not even once found a squad with anything remotely resembling any kind of actual teamplay, I have been revived more times in one round of BF3 than in Squad for 5-ish years. Squad is a game that exclusively can work only for people with groups of friends.
Idk, with project reality I felt like I could play as any infantry role, even squad leader. The current squad feels like csgo or cod, I get instant beemed by a guy sprinting full speed. Im hope these changes will force everyone to rely on team play
Do you know that statistically 8 out of 10 trained marines in a real firefight tend to shoot somali-style in the general direction of the enemy? Because irl everyone wants to live. It takes very special mindset and training to be able to stand under fire and align your shots perfectly. This is a game about regular infantry, not spec-ops in any way. So even if recoil pattern and swaying looks unrealistic sometimes it seems the only way to simulate a soldier trying to catch his breath and shoot under enemy fire. Since we as players cannot feel that adrenalin in any way 🤷
where did you pull that "fact" out of. An infantryman is not going to shoot "Somali style" they will lay down suppressive fire if they can't see the enemy, but in general they will maintain proper shooting mechanics (shouldered stock/cheek weld).
@@specialist4566mao if marines do that sort of thing, the initial stages of the Iraq War wouldn't have been won so quickly 😂
completely agree with this video, finally someone is speaking up about how bad and unrealistic the aiming mechanics are.
Stumbling upon your channel 6 years ago was how I found out about Squad, and I ended up watching a majority of your Squad content from then until you stopped making videos on the game.
I only have 380 hours total playtime so my opinion on the infantry overhaul can differ greatly to others. I also have absolutely close to zero experience handling anything larger than a pistol (I'm Canadian so gun ownership stuff).
The weapon handling change to me feels amazing. For a game that advertises itself on being a milsim, it really does put a hamper on the gameplay experience knowing that a player that doesn't value their life/ticket has no problem with running and gunning, which the current Squad has. Yes, having to stand still and bracing yourself to line up a shot is incredibly annoying to deal with the majority of the time, but the entire purpose of the overhaul is to slow down the general pace of the game. I feel that a lot of people that are taking issue to how slow it feels are either people that don't play milsim games that often or don't want to change the way they play Squad currently. With PiP being introduced, I feel that they tackled the issue of everyone wanting to take a gun with magnification very well. You're supposed to be picking the loadout you want based on your playstyle, not picking a kit and forcing it into how you play Squad. I feel it's there's an argument that you feel that sway is very out of place because besides one portion of the video, you're only using an optic with magnification. I'd imagine trying to center a target with a scope is relatively hard past a certain range compared to centering a target with a point optic like the red dot/holographic systems at close range. Recoil wise, the single fire between all guns is well rounded to helping OWI achieve the longer firefight feel. Firing a shot every half second or so did not fail me during the first overhaul beta and did not feel clunky at all and if anything felt more rewarding knowing that if I didn't panic and took my time, 3 out of 4 times I could kill the target if we saw each other at the same time. I can't really give an opinion on whether or not recoil feels good in terms of full auto because I rarely play classes with MGs or don't use full recoil unless I'm in a building or closer than 10 meters to the intended target.
The gameplay you're showing us in the video doesn't really do your points justice about weapon sway/weapon recoil because you're playing the overhaul as if it were just standard Squad. It isn't. It's meant to be more gruelling and slower paced with the player being rewarded or punished way heavier than before. As it is, it's incredibly important to constructive criticism on the overhaul since you've just said you love the direction that Squad is going.
As a fan of your channel for close to 6 years, I don't agree on how you're criticizing Squad. You show the issues that you have with the overhaul and don't elaborate further on you feel that they can fix these problems. Saying things like "I don't like this part about that part" without giving some kind of example on how to fix the issue is nothing more than just a way to bash the developers. Then going somewhat off topic and saying things like "There are other issues with Squad I don't agree with" changes the entire vibe of the video. If anything you should have just named the video 'Squad's Infantry Overhaul and Issues That Need to be Addressed'. Watching you have so much fun in with Squad in the past wishes that you at least give ideas on how to make the game more fun/realistic and not give more fuel to why or why not Squad is doing well.
Squad is on it's way back to the upper echelons of milsim games with how Hell Let Loose is turning out and anyone that gives a damn about Squad needs to give as many ideas to OWI until the release of the overhaul so that it's bright and polished for everyone to enjoy.
At the end of the day once the overhaul is released, someone is going to be happy and someone is not.
thank you for watching the channel man, that is a long way to come.
my notes on the gunplay are exactly as they are in the video. tune down the recoil/sway more, fix the scope misalignment, keep the suppression. overall im pretty sure i've mentioned multiple times how squad deserves an A+ for this test and their effort and that it has a brighter future than ever before.
I think there are things you can't simulate in a game well enough without implementing something overexaggerated. Most of the things you experience in a real firefight happens, because you're in a certain mental state, eg. weapon sway. You obviously won't be swinging your rifle around like crazy but your hands will be shaky, you'll be snappy and your brain will automatically disregard certain stuff, focusing on very particular things. You can't generate this in a game naturally, because your body would have to be in an extremely adrenaline induced fight or flight mode. You were right in saying that they chose firefight over gunplay, because they're probably trying to capture raw feelings and experience, which might make it more realistic from a certain angle. Dial them down, your gunplay may feel better but the overall experience might dilute. When I'm playing a simulator of this sort I play it to try and feel something similar if I were to be out there in the field. Squad was very goofy in my opinion when you had the option to jump over a compound wall in full gear and solo an entire team in the back.
Okay, here’s the question. Is this a simulator or a game? I know these things can overlap but you get the idea.
Finaly, someone who shares my concerns regarding the overhaul.
Maybe the 'floaty' gunplay can be synched to suppression to make it so accuracy drops dramatically as the fear and adrenaline of being under fire come into play. That way, if you are getting the first shots off and aren't under fire, you experience accuracy and gunplay as if you were on the range, while you get the panic like floaty gunplay when you're shot at and the rifleman you're playing as is panicking.
i think suppression in the playtest is perfectly fine, but i might be biased because i designed a system similar to it
I thought about this too, if their was an active adrenaline system it might be a good middle ground for both groups.
Make the adrenaline rise instead of fall while under fire and make it slowly drain (slower than stamina gain probably ) as you get to better cover.
Many people in the comments have pointed out most of the time you're weapon is going crazy is because you're out of stam, have just whipped around, or are doing a stance change, or multiple of these things. It also really hard to get the perspective lined up between a game and real life, and on top of that in real life you're brain filters out a lot of motion and arms and body absorb recoil which people are 100% used to games doing almost entirely for them.
Don’t listen here Squad devs, keep up the good work! If no constructive criticism is offered and only “regression” and “bad implementation” is said here then theres no point. Or you could be like chad Bigfry and say fuck it; make your own game.
damn, it sounded like i was listening to someone read off a script
i quit Squad about the same time as you. still, i feel like you're "set" to dislike the game in all of your last videos about it
i mentioned squad deserves an A+ for their effort, i love the direction the game is going, and that the future has never been brighter
what? who doesnt like this update this is an absolute win
imma have to disagree. I think the new changes to the gunplay are an equal balance between realistic tactical shooter, and a bigger focus on team play and communication.
I think that the devs got it spot on. Literally. I’ve never been so impressed in my life.
If you play airsoft with a scope you would know that scope misalignment is a very real thing when you are panicing. Sure maybe not for everyone, but put yourself in the shoes of an actual soldier under real fire and they are having an anxiety attack because at any moment they could die, they yes it would be pretty common to have some scope misalignment. And before i hear the fact that real soldiers dont panic in battle thats bullshit, most due and you would too if you had bullets whizzing past your head.
Then scope misalignment should only happen when you’re suppressed. Even when no one is shooting at you and your stamina is at full bars you still aim like you’re 4 bottles of whiskey down and will miss your target and expose your position.
@@Lord_Tourettes Wtf is with these squad players saying 4 bottles of whiskey down? I have seen that exact comment so many times. Why is it always whiskey and why is the number always 4 bottles XD? It's like you guys are all the same person, stop parroting what you read on the internet.
@@TheEPICskwock best and only way to describe it.
I think that this update is step one in a very important information gathering process. We are inevitably going to have some growing pains as they try to figure out different strategies for achieving the goal of making firefights last. I would guess they tried to plan things out for a long time and hit a point where they couldn't theorize on it anymore and had to just jump in with a change so they could get player feedback to know what direction they need to go in. Hopefully more changes will come in the future that keep the longer gun fights but introduce better feeling gunplay. Whether OWI will succeed in both areas remains to be seen but I think this is a step in the right direction.
Edit: If what I'm saying is accurate then OWI should come out and express all of this clearly so the player base understands whats going on so I think a lack of clear communication on the overall plan could be part of the problem here. If we knew this was for sure a temporary thing it would be a lot easier to deal with but right now we don't know 100% whether this is planned to always be the way gunplay works or not.
100%, i'm providing my personal feedback on this test. as i even mention in the video squad is going in the right direction and A+ for their effort. they just need to find an innovative way to retain the suppression/firefight feel without making gunplay feel floaty
It's not slow COD for you to get kills and have fun with aim. It's supposed to be difficult "squad" game for longer firefights and doing operations with your team. Now one man squad can delete entire enemy team and it should not be like this so they changed it.
Seems like the main issue is how quickly you gain stability. A simple test would be simply doubling the rate you gain stability and tune it from there if that is unbalanced. As for how well you maintain stability after gaining it? I don't know enough to guess on that.
EDIT: doubling the rate you gain stability would also make the stability UI obsolete... meaning you can just remove that issue as players would never need to look at it.
The longevity of Squad: 📈📈
I think toning down the recoil risks you running into issues where, like current squad, it's far too easy to get kills and be killed while doing things you should reasonably be punished for. I mean you show yourself sprinting frequently here and you are now punished for this. It's going to take time to adjust and as someone who isn't even a big fan of PR I have to say that the PRification of Squad like you talk about is obviously the biggest step in the right direction they could take right now, you talk about how the gunplay is sacrificed. How? How do you feel this way despite CQB becoming more engaging and long range firefights becoming more interesting and less frustrating. The gunplay is now completely conducive to the infantry firefights that squad should be focused on, and especially with Machine Guns now being able to fulfil their role I think this is easily the best change Squad has made since it released.
One thing I would like to know, as a civilian, are there combat veterans who see this change as making the gun fall more in line with a high-stress combat environment or is it still far over the top. Regardless I think the changes should stand, without any real toning down.
im 100% willing to tradeoff the gunplay for the long engagements, thats what i always wanted in squad and these changes accomplish it nicely, while not ideal, the gunplay still is pretty good in my opinion
I totally get where you are coming from with the gameification of squad. In some respects old 2017 Squad is better than what we have today. With that being said, I think the changes will be positive in the long run.
5:00 in my opinion vehicles need an actual Xray damage model like in GHPC(GunnerHeatPC) War thunder or post scriptum
it buffs vehicles but also nerfs them if you dont know where to hit an T-72 to kill it you will most likely take multiple shoot to kill it but if you know where to hit Lower Plate driver viewport or gunbreach area you cann either oneshot it or critical damage it a hit near the gunbreach will destroy the breach so you cant fire back
and for those critical moduels the could also make it so you have to drive back to base to fully repair the gunbreach in the field you cann only repair it up to 50% but then there is a chance for miss fires
and crew inside tanks should be killable to a Sabot round going through the side of an abrams will surely atleast take someone out
I disagree with your opinion.