DC20 is... amazing
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 มิ.ย. 2024
- The 2 biggest things in d20 roleplaying right now are Shadowdark, and DC20.
DC20 is on Kickstarter right now, so go check it out!
Shadowdark:
(Not my book; I don't have an affiliation with this author)
www.thearcanelibrary.com/coll...
• The Story of Shadowdar...
DC20:
(Not my book; I don't have an affiliation with this author)
www.kickstarter.com/projects/...
• NEW TTRPG D20 Game Sys...
Art from:
CC1, CC0
Wind in the field by RetSamys at www.deviantart.com/retsamys/a...
gifer.com/en/IdWK
www.harrypotterfanzone.com/pi...
#d&d #dc20 #oned&d #modulargames - เกม
Grit points only apply to saving throws and damage reduction, and they can be used to help teammates. Grit points are designed to be the representation of charisma on the battlefield.
Thankyou for the correction on that.
Charisma has rarely been a 'battlefield thing', but the Dungeon Coach is really breaking down that kind of barrier, and making all the stats useful all the time, isn't he? That's what the 'Prime Attribute' is about as well.
Exactly! He's trying to allow each ability to have thier own combat and non-combat value.
Creating balance that is not there in other systems, so people don't feel punished for not picking "suboptimal" stats.
I'm nor sure he loves Grit Points either, but I think it's the best solution he has come up with so far, as it's hard to quantify how Charisma affects turn based combat
@@androlgenhald476 given that charisma was originally tied to number of followers--and that's clearly out of fashion currently--one must get creative to make these stats relevant again.
Help isnt adv.....its help.
You are thinking of 5e help giving adv. Help is essentially bardic inspiration.
Yep it's not called advantage
Thank you, I can here to say the same thing! When to double check, and it doesn't saying anything like adv in that section at all.Not are we he conflate the two, especially since they can stack and are not mutually exclusive.
I.E I have advantage because their exposed, but knowing how tough the enemy is my teammate helps me.
So I roll 2d20+1d8+my modifiers.
The d8 help die is different since you are able to roll higher than 20. In a system like DC20 this is impactful especially combined with advantage since high rolls matter :)
@@kafka6666 I must have misread. I'll double check the text on it.
My only gripe was the shared name, so being wrong on that would be a relief.
I would honestly be happy to be wrong on this one.
Also, yes, it's a lot like bardic inspiration.
Loved that someone presented as an impartial opinion as they can give about the pros and cons. Agree on the neutral point of spell contesting, bigger group should get to add their combined mana. Though I understand why it may be unbalanced. On the other hand, I disagree on the action point system. It seems to me to make the most sense. It fixes the problem of action economy; having them regenerate at the end of your turn makes combat more dinamic, and makes reacitons optional rather than mandatory.
Despite the disagreement, I loved seeing someone address everything impartially. Excellent video!
Agree with this comment on the action economy working very well!
I think I should give a spoiler on one of my future videos...
If action points can be spent on other players turns, is there a strict reason to limit which actions can be used off turn? I don't think there is. For some specialized actions, there may be a tag line added saying "only reaction" or "only on your turn", but as a general rule, any action could be taken at any time.
In short, I don't actually dislike action points. I simply think that some additional baggage from the previous system was carried over un-necessarily.
@@ModularGames I’ve seen a lot of comments concerned that unrestricted use of action points off turn would step on the turn of other players. I think having off turn actions basically as reactions that require a trigger addresses this concern and helps in DC20’s case to reinforce the ability of your character to use AP when it’s important like defense and to encourage cooperative play like with reaction based help actions and buffs.
@@GlenFinney that is generally the primary concern people raise. Another way to phrase it though is "If players can take their actions any time they want, why would they wait to take the action on their own turn?". If that question can be answered in a satisfying way, I don't think players will be nearly as worried about it, and disruptions to play will be reduced.
Another point--which the dungeon coach has made many times himself--is the potential for collaborative actions. Acting on another players turn can be disruptive... or it can be cooperative.
@@ModularGames in my experience playing and running DC20 since the off turn actions are all reactions requiring a trigger they aren’t always triggered and when they are, it is most often on a monster’s turn not on a fellow player’s turn, as most of them are defensive or in the vein of opportunity attacks. The ones that trigger on another player’s turn are typically buffs to that player and not the other player doing something off turn on their own. So while players interrupt the GM’s turns all the time, the other players love it because it’s helping them as a team. Typically only about two players share a turn and in fact some players will delay their turn to go together as combos can be powerful and fun. When not doing combos or alternating actions then it tends to default to one player does their stuff then the other player does. The player who is more ready to act tends to go first in such situations giving the other player a bit more time to decide their next move. In play it’s honestly been a great experience.
While it's called charisma the ability has been described more as like willpower. So the grit mechanic is your force if will to overcome what you're enduring be that a saving throw or some damage. Enjoyable video, glad to see more DC20 content.
I also agree with your point about spell duels. Had it come up last night when my monsters contested a spell , another player wanted to get in in the fun but we all felt that basic "advantage" felt less thrilling then their magic being combined etc
The opinion on spell duels seems to be fairly common.
I'm guessing better than even odds that he updates it before shipping out the Kickstarter.
Also, if charisma was just called 'willpower' I suppose I would have no issues with grit. Thankyou for pointing that out!
I loved this video. Great explanation. Good cons. Perhaps consider joining DC20's 8:30 pm CST live chats on Tuesdays to help us improve things?
Btw, never apologize for a genuine dissenting remark at DC20. From day one, group input has been cherished and will continue to be. Join us!! Patreon members have wendesday morning live dev chats, too, depending upon how deep you'd like to dive it. Coach ABSOLUTELY will change the text in his book if the change makes sense to the table and him. No breath holding required. 🎉
I may well check in on those chats. Cheers, friend
The Help die is really important to combine with Adv... because you forgot one important thing in DC20... The degree of success!
The degree of success has an impact on the damage of the hit.
An Attack deals +1 additional damage for every 5 the result
of the Check is above the target’s Defense.
So statisticly, 2d20(ADV)+1d8(1Help) have better chance than 3d20(2xADV) to beat by more the Defense or the DC.
Hmmm... it does increase damage on hit doesn't it? That's a great point!
Wouldn't it work just fine if normal advantage added 1d8 as well? rather than rolling 2d20, 3d20 etc?
The system obviously works, but having a bit of symmetry on this would be really nice.
@@ModularGames No, this will give a bad result.
1D20(1)+2d8(1+1) = 3
2D20ADV(1 and 15 = 15)+1d8(1) = 16
ADV has her probability curve and the Help increase the results for a better hit.
All that thing is Math and probability balence...
I don't know if you know but The Dungeon Coach is a Math teacher ;-)
As a 5e GM, I'm super excited about this new project. also, I love your animated background :)
Thankyou! I work hard on those!
I have been following DC20 since the Dungeon Coach first announced the system to his patrons (a little over a year ago) and I am a big fan of many of the features if the game. I must also admit a bias for the game and crunchy mechanics.
I really like the four action point system and the ability to act outside of your turn because it helps in staying engaged because you are looking for opportunities to act, and I am very easily distracted if I have nothing to do in between turns (which I am feeling a lot right now in a 5e campaign I am playing in) so this kind of system helps me to stay focused.
For spell duels I do think it would be better or more interesting if the participaing parties added a mana bonus to the original initiator/challenger's roll as the current system is essentially advantage with extra steps. In general I think the spellcasting system is really cool as you can use mana to shape and empower spells. Later on in the beta there will be a spell rework which should sort out any kinks with spellcasting at the moment.
Overall I love the game (or what there is of it at the moment) with mosy of my gripes being rather minor. The game does feel real nice in play and I do like that mechanics are in place to encourage teamwork among allies (such as a rule for if a freind wants to help you throw an enemy).
Good video, I liked the style of breaking down pros and cons and tallying up the points.
Thankyou!!
I've seen a few people saying DC20 is D&D 6E--that is, it's the natural successor of 5E, and is exactly what so many people wished Wizards had shown us in OneDnD. I completely agree with that.
To be honest, the main reason I have any gripe with the action point system is because I recently found a very similar system which I consider superior. I'll do a video on that soon. The 4 point system, by itself, looks great.
If you've been following DC20 from the beginning, you may well know more about it than me. I'll look forward to any feedback you have when I release the video reviewing its classes!
@@ModularGamesWhat's the point system you found superior? Would love to know about it.
@@TheOverlapLifewithTimBarber There's a local creator in my area who has a 3 point action system. you can take any action as a reaction on any player's turn, but if you save your actions for your own turn you get a +2 bonus on rolls. very simple. very freeform.
Additionally, I have gripes that the dungeon coach allows actions that don't consume action points (2 item manipulations per turn). Seems like excess complication.
@@ModularGames WOW. That is so easy
The advantage system I think is a pro.
stacking advantage is definitely a pro.
D&D 3 to 5 are all rules heavy and probably heavier than DC20
Helping and Advantage are 2 different things are they actually both called advantage?
They are not called the same in DC20 and work different mechanically.
@@GlenFinney a few people have corrected me on this, so thankyou!
Looking forward to more videos on DC20. 🙂👍🏻
Thanks for the DC20 coverage!
glad to do it. thanks for the comment.
Weirdest thing about it is how the cinematics are strongly encouraged to contest continuity. A character was celebrated for winning initiative with a Nature check in one playtest... just for being a tree (tree ent), and without much actual narrative justification for it.
um, yes... I need to look closer at the initiative rolls... that sounds weird.
@@ModularGames I think that it has room for a DM to preserve sensicality 😅 Just sometimes the DC's narrative style is gonzo enough to rub me the wrong way.
👍this is a great video. I hope you do a Shadowdark video
I'm planning on that in the future!
(shameless self promotion: follow me so you don't miss it.)
@@ModularGames already did
So I disagree with your cons. Not that I think DC20 is beyond critique, it's still in Dev and I agree with you that the spell duels needs a fix. I first took you video as an overview of the system, but then my view of it changed.
Con 1 - it not being Rules light is a personal preference and should have been in the neutral category with emphasis toward negative for your preference.
Con 2 - on the Help system you misread it, because it doesn't even mention advantage in that whole section not even for description.
Con 3 - you "not getting it" shouldn't make it a con. It brings more balance to the 4 attributes Might for HP, Agility for PD(AC), Intelligence for Skills, Charisma for Grit.
This combined with #2 makes it seem like you didn't give DC20 a thorough read. I'm not saying everyone has to read it as if they were studying for a test, but you probable should if you're going to make a review video.
Edit: fix typing errors
Really enjoyed your review. Would love for you to rip my game system apart when it is done here in a few more months.
It’s funny to me that great minds do think alike. DC20 has several of the same ideas I had, such as making weapons feel more distinctive (I think mine might be more so, because I opted for more customization, and less ease of access, while the Dungeon Coach opted for the reverse), and his racial system is similar to what I did for mine, and similar as well as a glyph system I did for spells. I think his is more streamlined and mine is more balanced with options closer to Pathfinder 2e.
One of the biggest departures for my system is you don’t roll to hit at all, which might seem like a crazy idea, but when you only miss because your target actively dodges your attacks with reactions, items, consumables or some innate ability, it’s hard to want to go back to missing all the time. Nothing more frustrating or boring than missing every attack of an entire combat. That was quite literally my first experience with a TTRPG.
- Without all the misses, it makes it more predictable how much damage is likely to come filtering in on either end, which makes it really easy for a DM to balance encounters, because you have way less of a pendulum swing in damage.
- Outside of that, my monetary system is much better balanced; DnD’s gold is so ridiculously low value that it has to be as common as a base metal.
- I have a couple other large departures as well from traditional TTRPG system, but I’ll just leave it there. Not even sure you’ll read this.
Either way, I’ll be making sure to watch more of your videos. I found this one highly enjoyable and very fair and mirrored some of my own thoughts as well. Cheers.
Thankyou for the compliments!
I'd love to review and 'tear apart' your game system when it's ready!
-When building a system for myself, i leaned toward removing to hit rolls as well.
-also, with monetary systems, I just stated 1cp=$10, 1sp=$100, and 1gp=$1000 and things seem to flow naturally from there.
I'll try and get some contact info onto my youtube profile soon, so trading notes will be easier.
@@ModularGames
That would be great. I’d love to throw some ideas around with other game makers. Been a while since I chatted about that. And it’s certainly hard to make everything by yourself. My friend and I started this years ago and he dropped out so I just have been working on it for on and off a dozen years or so.
Yeah, honestly, great minds once again. Thats very similar to my value for coinage as well. That’s much closer to actual monetary value.
- DnD gold is like 20 bucks or so at best for 1GP. Kinda weird to make gold so worthless. My players actually get excited when I give gold as silver is the more common coinage for most of the game. Platinum is jaw dropping with how valuable it is.
I found that rolling to hit means a lot less if you build mechanics up to ignore that. We just roll for critical and potency. But that’s another conversation.
Many people rolling against a spell on a Spell Duel is in itself advantage, isn't it?
That's absolutely true!
What I would point out, however, is that a high level spell (high mana cost) which has initiator roll high is literally impossible to counter unless the contesters use a similarly high level spell. several contesters using low level spells will NEVER be enough, even if you have 100 of them.
@@ModularGames we'll have to wait for the spell overhaul that's coming on beta version 0.10 =D
This sounds interesting
Playing a lot of 3.5 I don’t think it’s complicated
Nice review
3.5 was where I learned first. By comparison, DC20 is much simpler, I agree. It's really only complicated compared to rules-light-OSR.
Great Review, I'm sure Coach would agree
I appreciate that!
Did you find it... modular... enough?
Not rules light enough did I hear you say?
What a fun question!!!
Generally all the rules seem to come in sets of 2-3, but almost none are un-separable.
DC20 is a Modular, and Customizable game!
@@ModularGames I feel like I should trust your take on this ;)
At very least it seems clear that most DMs would be able to adjust what they disagree with.
I don't really like the idea of armies carrying around 100 lvl 1 sorcs to combine their mana to spell duel away a lvl 10 wizard's big fireball
I agree.👍🏻
I love the idea and immediately have a picture of an awesome battle in mind.
It's just extremely unlikely to find 100 lvl 1 spell casters in one place.
In what world are you playing?
@@louis1372 If its high fantasy or "Action fantasy" where angelborn, demonborn, etc etc are all basic lvl1 character creation options then the general presumption is that its very high magic. So it becomes the case that if you are diegetic its a net gain to do the above strategy. Imagine in our world if a nuclear strike could be negated by a bunch of 7-11 employees combining their spirit energy, that's basically the DC20 reality if I am understanding the premise correctly.
@roon-sy8fz @louis1372 Sounds like the kind of thing a government would do, doesn't it?
Can you believe the players frustration if the BBEG pulled that kind of thing? They'd HATE it!
All things considered, there's got to be some kind of middle ground. I'm all ears on this.
I really like this thought experiment :).
The 100 level 1 7-Eleven employees unfortunately have little chance against a level 20 wizard, since their mana spent limit is 1 and each employee has to make their own spell check. Even if one of them rolls a natural 20 (+1 Mana spent + 3 Prime +1 Combat Mastery) = 25 total, it's unlikely they can prevent the damage against someone who adds +9 Mana spent +10 Combat Mastery +7 Prime for a total of +26 (+plus all the other cool features they have and some likely help dice). Plus, the wizard is probably rolling multiple adv.
I do like the look of DC20 but I'm not sure it gives me anything I need that 5e doesn't. Calculating HP in 5e has never been an issue for me. Nor grappling. I haven't seen a video yet that convinces me, although your's gets closest - it's very clear and thoughtful, so thanks.
To be honest, the base rules fall pretty similar to 5E. The classes really shine though: it moves classes away from 'big bag of tools' and more toward 'character vision' and role.
3d6 > 1d20. Much more consistent results. Less swingy. No more Battlemaster falling on his face 5% of the time.
Oh, gosh, you'd love my book. th-cam.com/video/sttLVaQUncE/w-d-xo.html
It's all about alternatives to core rules like that.
If there are other mechanics you hate, I may be able to include some of your ideas (only if you volunteer for such)
I'm gonna say it depends on how you interpret criticals. A common man critical is very different than a master criticals. It means more of a bit worse failure than a total catastrophe most of times.
I agree DC20 is overly complex, which is fine if you’re a veteran player but not as easy to pickup for a new player.
many experienced players forget how steep the learning curve really is. (I've also been guilty of this)
I started with thaco, it was a WTF moment.
Now 5e well other then the, books not being laid out the best, it hasn’t been so bad.
But I think your absolutely right. We forget.
@@wills8611 not sure why established companies have so much trouble with organization and layout, when indies never do...
@@ModularGames I’d blame the editing of the books. They don’t look at correlation. By cutting something’s out, rather the relationship an item has to another item causes a break.
You gotta read the books from cover to cover to make sure you got it all right, and it’s easy for the reader to understand.
Dude your background is SO busy, couldn't keep watching, and you really need to upgrade your mic. Had you turned up all the way and still had trouble hearing you.
I must confess my tv BLARED at me when I went to the next video. Turning up your volume, however one does that, would be a help!
I noticed the volume was a bigger issue on this video than others. Will definitely work on improvements.
@@ModularGames That background, though. Gah! My eyes!
Yup
💜🐲💜
Tks DC20 is reallly awesome
I find the current rules are incredibly overdetailed and verbose. at some point it feels like there is more complexity than it needs to be, to the point that it actively discourages free Interpretation or rulings by GMs. why does it need 10 pages to describe the core Roll mechanics and types of checks? I hope it gets slimmed down as it refines itself.
Still very much a rough draft formatting will be worked on after content validation. As someone who’s been GMing the game about 6 months now I can say it’s just as easy to do rulings and free interpretation as 5e.
@@GlenFinney honestly, leaving room open for at-the-table rulings is a sign of good design on its own.
Agreed: it's a rules heavy system. That said, there's a lot to like, and we can keep our fingers crossed that the word count gets reduced.
As far as interpretations and rulings, I don't think it was particularly cumbersome: there's a lot of text, but once you get through it, it's pretty straight forward. Also, few of the rules are dependent on each other, so if there's an issue, it won't break the game if you toss one out.
@@ModularGames I agree! I basically make a habit if something isn’t covered, we’re not sure and don’t want to look up, or it just sounds fun to state that in this moment this is going to work this way. Spot ruling for fun and continued flow of play but make it clear it’s not a precedent necessarily.
@TheDungeonCoach DC20 LETS GOOO!