About DSPs and Room Correction
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ส.ค. 2024
- Is Digital Signal Processing bad for the sound quality? And if not, what about digital volume control, equalisers, room correction and active cross-overs? Well, that depends…
Contents of this video
00:00 - Intro
00:23 - Start of program
00:51 - The DSP
02:53 - What does it do?
04:31 - The resolution
06:06 - Then Dithering
07:23 - Where to use
08:32 - Equalisers and X-overs
09:42 - Room correction
11:18 - The wrap
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Very informative! Thank you!
👍🏼
Thank you, sir, for more good advice. As always you explain topics in a manner that lay people can understand. I very much appreciate your videos about these more general topics.
And Happy New Year to you and yours.
The same to you and yours
Thanks Hans this is a very informative video with a perfect level of technical detail. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
Moving speakers anywhere and put acoustic panels are not possible for a majority of music enthusiasts. So room correction and dsp eq is often way better then bad speakers placement... it is just a fact of life that some purist audiophile won't really understand. When possible, of course it's better to choose the right room, install many acoustic treatments and place the speakers exactly where it sounds best. For the rest of us, room correction and eq is great! (For bad recordings too :)
Life is a compromise and so is a stereo. There is no need for acoustic panels, I don't use them. But it depends on the quality of the stereo. Anything lower than my setup 1 might need (good) room correction.
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannelI don't think the need for acoustic panels depends on the amount of money spent. Almost every system will profit from at least some room treatment and the reduction of reverb time in general and reduction of early reflections (some speakers based on their construction benefit more than others though). Any "normal" room treatments like e.g. carpets don't work low enough and will only affect higher frequencies. Therefore some thicker absorbers are really helpful to achieve a more harmonic RT60.
Nicely Done.
Thanks!
Excellent video, can't wait for the lower frequency video explanation on Jan 2024. Happy New year Hans!
Same to you!
Very interesting, Hans.👍🙂🎧
Many thanks!
Dank u well meneer!
👍🏼
I have been using a DSPeaker anti-mode 2.0 for several years in a 2.1 stereo/sub setup and the effects are not subtle and are very positive. The listening room is a living room with vaulted ceilings but with noise dampening curtains, bookshelves and furniture. The DSPeaker also has many useful features to include a PEQ.
I'm not against room correction. I have used a MiniDSP for some years, as I mentioned in the video. If it's needed, it's needed.
Very good product. I have used it in a similar setup. I have since moved to a NAD unit and now using Dirac Live.
i have a miniDSP DDRC-22D in my setup and i have to say that it was IN MY CASE the best solution for my room size. i had major issues on the lower frequencies.
I'm not against room correction. I have used a MiniDSP for some years, as I mentioned in the video. If it's needed, it's needed.
Happy New year Hans, I wish you would mention crosstalk elimination, or 3d sound projection as such (as by BACCH), this is an important part of DSP and definitely belongs into this review and your arsenal.
As you might know I don't listen to headphones, I'm claustrophobic.
curious, its NOT headphone, it is speaker based technology, fantastic!@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel
Best wishes for '24 and beyond! Another great vid! I so agree with you on the topics you raised. For some reason we keep calling it "Room correction" when we're not really correcting anything in the room. Nor are we correcting but rather adjusting the system for the bext match with the listening environment. Rather than Room Correction, it should be called something like System Acoustics Adaptation or similar.
I've become a great fan of Dirac even with my not inexpensive and well matched system but in a crap room. Keen to see how Bass Control will further improve things at home.
I think the main reason that Dirac works is that they calculate the filters at their own facilities and send these back to your unit to store (you need to be online when creating a filter) so don't rely on the processing power on board of a product (which will always be insufficient) or that of a laptop.
Hope to see more on the subject.
Well an automobile is not self driving either. Room correction is named after the effect it has for the owner.
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel Well, a car was called an automobile in the old days when it didn't need a horse but was "self-powered" and thus appropriate, today it's only called that by old or wannabe posh people. But, who cares, really...
For me, DSP is essential and way more than bass management and room corrections. Harmonic excitation and Hass effects can bring out the best of even the most modest of audio gear. The likelihood of the recording, DAC, AMP, Speakers, room, listener ears and listener expectations lining up perfectly are...... infinitesimally small. DSP can help with every step in the chain and in particular compensate for less-than-ideal speaker placements.
I'm not against room correction. I have used a MiniDSP for some years, as I mentioned in the video. If it's needed, it's needed.
I will never hear without DSP / Room EQ. There are way more pros over cons. Specially when you use Subwoofers or Array Solutions its impossible without DSP. And in my opinion no 2.0 Home setup can deliver this precision over the complete freq spectrum (20Hz-20khz) Dsp & Subwoofers are the solution for precise & high end sound.
I'm not against room correction. I have used a MiniDSP for some years, as I mentioned in the video. If it's needed, it's needed.
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel I use Neumann Speaker and their correction. Works perfectly fast without problems. A friend of mind uses Genelec 8341 with an Double Bass Array (2 Subs in the Front, 2 in the Back) and miniDSP 2x4 andit works awesome. But it was a hell to setup because the minidsp support didnt even known her own products
Loved the rounding illustration 😀 Interestingly with the fpga used in PS audio direct stream 1, the layout of the chip is not deterministic (given the same input) so they listen to evaluate the best sounding compile. I had terrible luck with Dirac and between 4 sets of measurement and a lot of very different target curves, the only thing that did not make the sound stage flat as a pancake, bound to the plane of the speakers, with zero space between the instruments, was turning off time alignment and limiting the correction to under 500hz. Lots of EQ is done in mixing and mastering, that damage the sound far far less. That said I do realize that some people have good result using Dirac. According a dirac experts at the main resellers of Dirac enabled equipment in my country, it is very very roomy dependent if Dirac will give a good result or not, which is kind of amusing for a room correction system (and sad for anyone who bought their system due to it having Dirac and that have the wrong room).
I'm not against room correction. I have used a MiniDSP for some years, as I mentioned in the video. If it's needed, it's needed.
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel That is clear from your videos and I did not mean to imply otherwise 👍 I was relaying my own experience, where dirac and other room correction systems have degraded the sound severely, definitely much more so than a bit of high quality EQ or other DSP used correctly would have. And these are of course used quite extensively in mixing and mastering of most music anyway. As always, “your mileage may vary” and I realize room correction works really well for a lot of people.
I use a room correction made by my denon receiver in order to flaten the frequency range of the stereo speakers. The result is much miuh more dynamic, resolving and punchy comparing to the "pure direct" option where no dsp or correction is made.
Even when trying to connect my dac preamp directly to the poweramp, the result has much less bass, dynamics and resolution.
My receiver is also used as the system's streamer (heos), which although it's user interface isn't the best there is, but sound wise sounds excellent
I'm not against room correction. I have used a MiniDSP for some years, as I mentioned in the video. If it's needed, it's needed.
Always interesting. Always a compromise...tradeoff. I think I'm where you were a few years back...I love Dirac through NAD with my ATC actives....and I still love MQA as well. One day I'll move up to the Dutch&Dutch 8c.
That's no bad place to be. But I understand your urge for progression.😁
Using Dirac on the NAD C658 and active speakers. But I have a feeling that Dirac stealing soul of that system. But it is still the best way to fight 38Hz problem in my room. 1,6s reverb. Thank you.
I'm not against room correction. I have used a MiniDSP for some years, as I mentioned in the video. If it's needed, it's needed.
You can 'gate' DIRAC to only correct for a defined range of frequencies. Try restricting the correction to 100, 200 or 500 hz. so that the mids and highs are unaffected.
@calebkeen8967 Problem is that I would like to spice up top as well and there is no way to avoid mids. Bit less bright speakers I have. Thanks anyway
Suggest you have a discussion with Peter Lyngdorf as he has spent a awful lot of money on room correction dsp R & D .
Well, that might be one of the exceptions. I have heard one of his big setups on a show and that sounded great.
There are very few things I disagree with Hans Beekhuyzen about in general, but I think his exploration of DSP/Room Correction falls short. While I also have had the pleasure of Dirac within the MiniDSP SHD Studio, I can robustly confirm that Dirac (and the SHD Studio) is hardly the topnotch DSP solution. I use and find much more quality in generating proper FIR filters via Acourate and integrate them in Roon directly. For this, I hook up microphone and a small interface via a laptop with Acourate, and transfer the correction file onto my NUC i7 running Roon Rock. Instead of having a separate streamer attached, the NUC delivers directly to an AudioGD DI20 HE (with separate master clock) and via I2S to R7 HE Mk.2. Roon is such a bliss.
I'm not against room correction. I have used a MiniDSP for some years, as I mentioned in the video. If it's needed, it's needed.
You might try manually designed FIR filters on your SHD instead of the IIR/FIR mix generated by Dirac.
I think the mix it the preferred way to go. At least for me.
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel yes, I'm also using a combination of IIR filters for EQ and FIR for final phase correction with my miniDSP 2x4HD. It's a bit tricky, but works perfectly.
The difference of IIR and FIR filters are significant in high end audio. And the processing power of real FIR filters require much more power than standard FGPA in MiniDSP products. As you may know - FIR vs. IIR filters are about time / phase smearing (one of your important issues) -
' So please : there is a higher degree of room correction, and DIRAC is not that one ! @@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel
Thanks for all your work. What do you think about Room Perfect ?
I have not reviewed it so I can’t say
My introduction to room correction was a demo by Perpetual Technologies about 20 years ago. But they never brought it to market. Sadly, many pro audio speakers have gone to DSP. HEDD has ruined their sound when using analogue inputs.
true
@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel | Totally understand the no-EQ philosophy, but what to do with recordings with great content, but not-so-great production/engineering? Just don't listen?
He didn't say "no-EQ"; he said equalizers are not room correctors.
Which is the subject matter.
EQing certainly changes the sound, it's just not the equivalent of DSP.
Totally agree! Lots of very good songs and classical recording from the 70's and up, sound bad. Eq do a great job. Same with some modern pop music with too much hi frequency. The best sound system in the world won't fix that... good eq (like in mojo 2) or other dsp will! (Eq can be done by dsp just like room correction) So this purist approach is not for the vast majority of music listeners and audiophiles in my point of view. (I'm a sound engineer)
Actually, I don't know that many 7 0's recordings that sound bad. Actually a poor stereo make them sound poor. But I am not agains EQ, if it's needed, it's needed. I just get better results selecting my stereo carefully and placing my speakers at the ideal spot.
@@saint6563 | Agree that analog EQing is NOT DSP, but any DSPing affecting frequency response IS EQing -- just in the digital domain.
I have a nice Holo May DAC and would love to effectively upsample without spending Grimm Audio money- it’s just not in the cards for me. At the same time, I could spend more than the Eversolos of the world. For a streaming/upsampling combo, what’s a good solution for say half the Grimm Audio budget?
You find my reviews of upsampling products here: th-cam.com/video/vlWo38gWiG0/w-d-xo.html&pp=gAQBiAQB
Is the Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 (with its Room Perfection system) also worth a 'bombshell'?
I have not reviewed it so I can't say.
Ik heb een lyngdorf, en moet zeggen dat het een goede aanvulling is in mijn beperkte luister/leefruimte. (Een soundstage die acoustisch tot in de gang gaat). Harley lovegrove heeft er ook een review over gemaakt. Misschien maakt die nieuwsgierig. Ik ben in ieder geval benieuwd naar jouw mening. Bedankt voor je video en een goed 2024.@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel
Because I have a stubbornly difficult room and no desire for panels in my listening area I have gone from an old school purist Naum with almost nothing extra in the signal path to a Lyngdorf 3400 where you can do so much. More to the point with the Lyngdorf in my setup anyway you must fiddle (or it will probably sound singularly unimpressive) and luckily i have a background in sound engineering because the average consumer would find it difficult. My favorite dealer sneered at the lyngdorf but haven’t head my system. Does all the dsp muck up the original signal? Actually that is exactly what it is meant to do on the basis that the original signal isnt satisfying me anyway. I get lots of options with the Lyngdorf to try various after setup/ focus points and other settings and have a sound I really like. Its a matter of being open minded. I never thought i would replace my classic Naim sound (not the current bs lifestyle sound which is no longer JV Naim sound) but I listened with an open mind and it took me three separate loans and the realisation that I had to put effort into setting up the Lyngdorf even for a short listen to get me to change. The Lyndorf Room Perfect does a lot more than frequency adjust / correct btw and I very much had to still tailor its corrections to my taste
As long as the problems it solves are greater than the artefacts it causes it’s an improvement.
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel far greater in my case. Perhaps a useful analogy is that my Room itself is creating huge and undesirable acoustic artefacts and the Lyngdorf gets rid of far more of those problems than it creates. I stress again I had to do a lot of playing around and I have previous experience at sound engineering which helps me better experiment with the many settings only some of which are automatic.
My main point in writing such a detailed post is to stay open minded! Reading what an erudite sound guy like yourself recommends is a great starting point but For my situation and listening tastes something totally different may and did suit.
When the dealer recommended I try Lyngdorf I was a lifetime Naim amplifier man, and Julian’s philosophy was the opposite of Lyngdorfs but my dealer was also a former sound engineer so I kept an open mind and pleasebear in mind I had tried the top integrateds from luxman, pass, and many others.
Where in nature does a sound emanate from two (or more) sources?
It's one to think about.....
everywhere
Where in nature does men have more than two ears? That's one to think about too.
€3,56 is rounded at €3,55 - not at €3,60. But we get the point you try to make.
The same with €12.87. That is rounded at €12.85 and not €12.90.
I understand why Hans is using this example of course butrounding only takes place after adding up all the groceries😊
@@jakobgooijer Je hebt een punt. Je scoort daarmee een punt.
@@jakobgooijer not every single item, but total is rounded,IMHO,I get the point:) But if a bill is paid with a card, it is NOT_ [that's what I have experienced]
Not my strongest metaphor, I believe.
there are these self proclaimed experts on TH-cam that beilieve DSP is the answer to everything. These guys have next to no room treatments and lack knowledge in speaker placements. They were extremely puzzled when i indicated DSP put a vail to the sound when active (lower bass only). to me none of these self proclaimed experts actually lives with a high end stereo system.
I'm not against room correction. I have used a MiniDSP for some years, as I mentioned in the video. If it's needed, it's needed.
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel i totally agree "if needed" not to use DSP no matter what.