Fw 190 Engine Control Kommandogerat
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.พ. 2025
- In this video we cover the system logic of the Kommandogerat system. This was the forerunner of modern engine management systems. It controlled fuel mixture, propeller pitch, manifold pressure, ignition timing and supercharger speed switching. All without an electronic computer. It's an amazing mechanism that some may find interesting.
We will get into the air fuel ratios and ignition timing values run by the BMW 801. Some people have asked for that, and it's tough information to come by. The information is in the video, but as you will see, some of it raises as many questions as it answers.
The Kommandogerat system was used on BMW 801 radials, typically found on 190 A models as well as Ju88s and Do17s. So while I think of this video as Fw190 part 4 in a series, it's relevant to some other planes as well, and to the basic principles of engine operation.
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Translation for the graphic showing the parts of the Kommandogerät:
_Hebel f. Ladedruckeinflussauf Schaltlader-Dosenverstellung_ = lever for boost-pressure influence on pressure can of the switch charger
_Ladedruckregler_ = boost pressure regulator
_Ladedruckwählhebel_ = boost pressure selector lever
_Anschluss für Temperaturmessung der Ladeluft_ = connection for temperature measurement of the charge air
_Einspritzpumpenregler_ = injection pump regulator
_z.Ladedruckmesser_ = (connection) to boost pressure sensor
_Anschluss an Regelhebel der Einspritzpumpe_ = connection to regulator lever of the injection pump
_Ölzulauf_ = oil supply
_Ölrücklauf_ = oil return
_Ölfilter_ = oilfilter
_Leistungswählhebel_ = power selector lever
_Sturzflughebel_ = dive lever
_Duz Gestänge zur Zündzeitpunktverstellung_ = Duz linkage to ignition adjustor
_Duz Gestänge zum Drehzahlregler_ = Duz linkage to the speed controller (engine)
Thanks Alexander. That's helpful.
You did a great translation but it really shows how complicated the Kommandogerät really was! Thank you 👍👍👍
Thank you. I speak German, but not pilot German :-)
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@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles In the back ground I swear I can hear the sound of you being on an aircraft (in flight)??
Or maybe it's been so long for me (as a pax) that I'm going crazy and I'm hearing things....
As a mechanical engineer I love such designs as they require much more know-how and imagination than many contraptions we see today. Damn the transistor. Thank you for sharing it with us, just fantastic.
Well, I Guess the guy who came up with the transistor was pretty clever too haha.
They used transistors back then
I don't speak German, and worked at Boeing in the early '80s, when the AWACS system was being configured for NATO. Engineers from Dornier were busily prepping the software for European use -- including translation of the many technical manuals. I vividly remember hearing one of those guys on a call to Stuttgart (or wherever), engaged in *creating* the tech jargon to label a diagram: "Is it a
, or more of a ?". What a facile language!
Can I just point out that you are an unusual person in that you are incredibly knowledgeable, yet extremely humble. Instead of flexing your expertise everywhere, you say this is your best guess and invite comments and checks... makes us feel we are a part of the analysis
Thanks Dr. You guys are a part of the analysis.
Greg is the guy you’ve always wanted to have a beer with, and never will.
The wise know that they more they learn (and know), the more they realise there're even more things unknown.
True experts know that they can be wrong, and always make clear the limits of their knowledge. Never trust anyone who never says “I’m not sure about that”.
I have been lucky enough to have had s beer with Greg. Great work sir!
DUZ is the abbreviation for "Druck Und Zug" Gestänge, which translates to push-and-pull linkage. And Sturzflughebel is a lever used in a nosedive.
Ich habe das auch überall gegoogelt und nichts gefunden. Danke.
Ansonsten hier ein paar Bedeutungen die ich gefunden habe:
Dienstunfähigkeitszeugnis
Oder
Dienst zu ungünstigen Zeitpunkt
Oder
Deutsche Uhrmacher Zeitschrift
Oder mein liebstes
Durch Unzulänglichkeit Zufrieden
Ja Druck und Zuggestänge ist richtig, Google gibt bei solch alten Abkürzungen aus der Luftfahrt oft nicht viel her, wie z.B. TSA oder ZSK (Tief Sturzanlage bzw. Zünder Schaltkasten).
Yeah, Sturzflug is what the Stuka does...once in a while
Would be interesting to know, what settings are affected by the Sturzflughebel. I would assume that it lowers rpm to give the computer more leeway towards maximum when diving.
@@daszieher The dive lever allows high RPM despite low power setting (so the prop acts as a brake) and actuates the dive brakes via a mechanical linkage (outside of and independent from the Kommandogerät).
German technology just amazes me in this timeframe. Its baffling how smart they were in all aspects of making something better. Not just fuel injection but direct injection. Seems like we barely just received direct injection on cars. The germans controlling direct injection with various sensors... atmospheric pressure, induction temp, manifold pressure sounds insane if you said this was 80-90 years ago.
I mean it's not that crazy, we got fly by wire some 40 years ago and are just now getting steer by wire in cars for example
Gosh. What an otherworldly piece of engineering. Old stuff can be just as amazing as modern stuff. Like that rocket motor on the Apollo rocket series. That thing is insane.
Greg is an absolute gem of obscure knowledge. Makes me feel good about relatives who paid the ultimate price. Thank you Greg.
They fought for the wrong side… unless they were Germans
I remember when I asked Greg for a video on the KommandoGerät. The engineering behind mechanical computers is incredible and I think this is going to blow our minds. The hype is real!
Just wait until electronic computers get released.
@@linusx77 I heard digital circuits are just around the corner!
@Kirk Wolfe mechanical electronic fuel injection?
It’s an MFI, or maybe more an MCU mechanical control unit, as it in addition to fuel injection it controls throttle, ignition timing and boost pressure.
@Kirk Wolfe from looking at a Bosch manual on fuel injection, both mechanical and electronic, I got an idea how crappy carburetors really are.
But the Fw190 engine control does everything a ECU does. Even things like throttle. Not long ago they where tight to your right foot. But 190 control it independently based on power request and environment.
I had an Alfa with the Spica injection once upon a time. I rebuilt the engine in my driveway after I missed a shift and buried a valve head into a piston crown. I got the injection working well enough to limp it down to a hole-in -the-wall shop in South Philly that was owned by an Italian guy called Armando. The only thing I ever saw him consume was Galliano. He tried to talk me into a set of Webers for it, but I was pore an' starvin' at the time. He got the Spica working properly, but tinworm got her in the end.
Love your videos Greg, please don't ever change. What happened to the history channel and Discovery was bad enough. I couldn't take another heartbreak.
Spica is dark arts. Stayed away - would have loved to own a Montreal. My Sud had Solex if I remember correctly. The 33 a Jetronic. The 75 ie turbo evo aswell.
Wow! Injecting the fuel directly into the cylinder causes huge problems that need to be overcome. For instance, the injection must be timed (as opposed to just metering the amount of fuel needed). To do this mechanically and make the system light enough to be practical would be an epic engineering feat of itself... let alone all the other engine management variables that this thing controlled. I worked on the Wright R-3350 and that one system created troubleshooting issues that had us scratching our heads many times. Bravo Greg! Great video.
+ M.R. Donovan The BMW 801 fuel injection pump is driven mechanically and has a cam ring that operates individual plungers for each injector.
Absolutely outstanding presentation! You expound on how certain issues that the engineers knew existed back when the 109 /Mercedes opposed to how differently those same circumstances where to be addressed to work for the 801 BMW radials in no shortage of mind-blowing concerted complexity!! I grew up in Auburn Indiana so having at times many opportunities to witness supercharged vehicle's of the 30s filling the streets along with every other example of automotive entity really put the hook in me! Now I'm flying the 190,P51D and B, spit mk14 p-39 ect..... RC. I find it keeps me sharp as a crane operator . In my travels found Robin Olds mustang "Scat III" in an unknown hanger.
Stumbled across Kermit's B-26. While driving that old heavily rat rodded 83 Mercedes that shakes at the stoplights!! Just really saying thanks buddy looking forward to the next one.
This series was truly outstanding ( AUSGEZEIGNET ) ! FW-190... MY FAVORITE WW-II AIRCRAFT ! Thanks you very Much.
When touring the battleship NC one of the most interesting parts was the mechanical fire control computer. So many variable inputs for a solution that didn’t last long.
FWIW mechanical fire control computers had pretty much the same lifespan as the dreadnoughts/battleships themselves, from before WWI to post-WWII. Actually a bit longer since they predated HMS Dreadnought.
I'd be fascinated by that, equally as much as the German automatic radar-flak aiming linkage system, and the uboot TDC.
these mechanical computers are very interesting. I'd love to see the breakdown of one, ie how the cogs moved in relation to one another to give certain outputs that caused another system, say the gyroscope and torpedo guidance device to steer the rudder on said torpedo.
Certainly some very clever people figured it out
@@CameTo th-cam.com/video/s1i-dnAH9Y4/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=Excelsior10000
@@rutabega2039 Thanks! I was think of that video at 7:29.
The torpedo data computer on US submarines during WW2 was another mechanical computer that is while not in the purview of this channel, but is worth a look.
Yes. the TDC
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_Data_Computer
was a very important part of controlling the use of Torpedoes on US Submarines. Once they got through all the foul ups that had been made in producing the torpedoes they worked with they became severely deadly to the Japanese Merchant Fleet.
.
Per your recommendation, I purchased a copy of "The Secret Horsepower Race", by Calume Douglas. It talks about the Kommandogerat but what impressed me was how handicapped the German aero engines were due to shortages of precious metals, fuel problems and low quality oil. Think of how they could have otherwise used all the engineering effort consumed overcoming these obstacles.
I will look up and read The Secret Horsepower Race. Thank you for restating here
@@brucearnold5846 I believe that the author, Calum Douglas, derives more benefit from the sale of his book through the publisher rather than through Amazon. I'm not affiliated with him at all, other than having bought four copies of his really wonderful book for myself, friends, and family. I cannot recommend it highly enough.
@@jaym8027 Absolutely correct.In correspondence with Mr Douglas he stated the same and directed me to Mortons Books in the UK from whom I purchased his fine publication.
I’ll second that. About 1/2 through it and it is fascinating.
i listen to this channel all day while driving my tractor.
All your videos make me realize how far mankind has come since WWll. Truly incredible and almost unbelievable. It also opens my eyes how easy it would be for mankind to return to grass huts. Thank you for sharing.
This is going to be a good video! Kind of a "mechanical" FADEC system, very advanced for the time. The pilot just operated the throttle and the system adjusted the engine propeller pitch, supercharger, etc. A major advantage, particularly to novice pilots.
actually pilot needed to adjust the octane number, then pressure at 1000 after that 5000 feet ;) But that was much easier than using the plane out of the blue.
Esp for hi-alt
oh. What spoilt the party - mostly - boiling oil and diving angle
Vlad, I enjoy reading your posts, even though I never have any idea what you're talking about. Must be some translation app issue.
FAMEC?
Also makes some pilots who would normally be quite average into incredible pilots. Crazy what people can do when they aren't task saturated.
@@simontist FADEC is Full Authority Digital Engine Control
its a computer controlled engine. most car engines are FADAC but I only ever hear the term used with aircraft engines and the reason is because many aircraft engines STILL dont use modern inventions like fuel injection or electronic controls. So the fact that an aircraft engine has FADEC sets it apart from all those that dont. In auto engines having FADEC just means it was built in this century, so no one brags about it.
I have said this before but will say it again. Greg, you are an amazing teacher. I am a Registered Nurse with no engineering background though I am a low time pilot. You explain things in such a manner that I instantly understand or even jump ahead to the next step. You remind me of my physics professor. He had that same quality.
38:56 love the holden/pontiac GTO! I owned one for a very long time and it was a FANTASTIC car!! Flawless.
Anyway, great video Greg! You are a treasure to the aircraft community. Keep up the great work sir
Thanks, I specifically chose a 2004 GTO because that was the first year with the ECU controlled throttle.
I thought it looked like a Monaro. I'm not a Holden fan. I have a 2005 Ford Falcon Station Wagon. I can get booked for speeding easily enough in that :P
A friend of mine has a gorgeous 1957 Corvette with mechanical fuel injection. The only thing wrong with it...is he hardly ever drives it. Garage/hanger queens hurt my soul. Thanks for sharing.
The worst thing to do is leave a mechanical fuel injection system in a classic car dormant! The internal moving parts will eventually seize due to corrosion. Note: Bio fuel is known to accelerate the corrosion process !
@@dipling.pitzler7650 He does regularly start it for a bit (hopefully long enough to get it up to temp) and he only uses premium gas with no ethanol. It's worked well enough so far but it seems like automotive cruelty to not drive it.
The channel that gives you hope in humanity
Patiently waiting for this one for sure! Super excited about this. I also happen to be working on an FW 190 model airplane as we speak too, building model airplanes while listening to Greg talk about airplanes is my favorite pastime
I love the way he ends up having to make more videos because he goes on a tangent about small technical details that are big enough to fill a lecture by itself.
Is this an "RC" FW190 model airplane you're working on? If so, I'd be interested in knowing the particular model. Thanks
@@scrubsr1304 I suspect it's just a plastic model like those made by, say... Tamiya.
I have a few models but I'm yet to do a 190.
Great video. Another example of a mechanical computer (analog computer is another name) that many have owned is an automotive automatic transmission. Most manufacturers didn't convert to electronically-controlled automatics until sometime between 1990 and 2000. Before then they were complicated mechanical devices (even without considering the gears themselves). They used non-digital inputs of speed, throttle position, vacuum, etc. to calculate when to change gears.
Watching one of Greg's videos leaves you with more questions than when you started, and WAY more answers than when you started.
As someone who's used to modern automotive ECU's and industrial machines with PLC's, the mechanical computer seems terrifying. 😂 Thanks for the great presentation!
It sure does. We have it much easier today.
Hi Gregor, ist Ralf again from Germany.
And I am currently enjoying your video on the FW190 "Kommando-Gerät", or as in modern aviation terms not FADEC but FAMEC (Full Authority Mechanical Engine Controll).
It actually was a BMW801 device rather than a FW190 device, as it also was on the BMW801 which I restored in the NEAM in Windsor Locks, Ct.. and this BMW801 came from a Do217 Bomber.
Now just two quick input: DuZ is an abreviation for "Druck- und Zug" Gestänge, in these days a German special form of Bowden Rod, with the difference, that it provided active press- and pull in one mechanical rod without a spring to backpull.
It does this by putting metal pearls on to the steel wire in the Bowden rod and so it translated push (Druck) and pull (Zug) in one rod.
...and the Dive lever (Sturzflughebel) was putting the engine settings to actually survive a steep dive while acting as an air break for the aircraft without overreving and providing adequate settings for pull out of the dive - for this it was to be connected to the planned "Dive-Auto-Pilot" e.g. on the Do217.
Thank you - the input from commenters on this channel is often of a very high caliber.
Woohoo I always look forward to a greg talk . Much more interesting that that TED .
When my Peugeot 504 packed up one day in the 1980s l eventually had to phone a carb specialist. The guy on the phone laughed his head off when l mentioned the offending Kugelfischer pump and told me l should look for a second hand WW2 Messerschmitt at the scrapyard. Very helpful that was! It's pronounced more or less how it looks written down.
Ölzulauf is oil supply to the engine.
Ölrücklauf is oil return from the engine
You do a fantastic job by the way … really enjoy these videos …. Thanks for your efforts
Basically an Hydro Mechanical Unit used in most helicopters pre FADEC or ECU or one used in the manual or back up mode. Neat stuff.
Hello Greg,
another well done video on a very technical subject! Let me add a piece to the puzzle that might help explain the rich mixture at altitude. The Bristol Centaurus is equipped with a speed density fuel injection unit manufactured by Hobson. This unit has two setting, Run and Idle cutoff so it two has automatic mixture control. When reading thru the manual I saw where it compensates for exhaust back pressure. On a normally aspirated engine the inlet pressure and exhaust back pressure decreases at the same rate as you go up in altitude. On a supercharged or turbocharged engine the inlet pressure remains constant (up to critical altitude) and the pressure on the exhaust is reduced with altitude! Simply put an engine running 2700 RPM and 50 inches at 10,00 feet produces more horse power than it would running the same RPM and boost at sea level. You can also see this in the pilot manual for the Beech Queen Air. It is equipped with the Lycoming IGSO540. If memory serves me right at sea level it made rated power (380HP) at 3400RPM and 47 inches. If you went to 5000 feet manifold pressure was limited to 45 inches. The manual doesn't say why but I believe it's because the engine makes rated power at reduced manifold pressure due to lower exhaust back pressure.
So back to the mixture question. It would stand to reason that an engine running a constant RPM and Manifold pressure would require more fuel flow as it goes up in altitude since it is producing more horse power due to reduced exhaust back pressure. Note: the fuel flow is increasing not the fuel air ratio.
Regards, Brian
Thank you for all the hard work you do Greg!
Amazing stuff. Thank you. Someone recommended looking into the amazing “brain box” of the D-13. Even though I’m too dumb to understand a lot of this, it’s still fascinating.
Back when I was a senior in high school (that'll be the only time in your life you'll want the word senior applied to you kids, remember that) in 1983 the guidance counselor's told us a good trade to get into was air conditioning because back then a businesses or engineering firms computer mainframe was huge and in a room of it's own, they produced so much heat that those rooms had their own dedicated air conditioning systems, the thinking being that computers were going to grow so much in use over the next 20 years that air conditioning technicians were going to be needed at the same rate computers were going to increase in common usage.
Well, they got half of that right.
The schools don't know what the job market will look like in 5 years, let alone 10 or 20. Of course they act like they do. When I was in school the teachers acted like they knew everything.
Please do a video on ignition timing and air fuel ratios. That would be fascinating. I love to sit down occasionally and listen to a couple of your videos. They are easy enough to understand, very interesting and full of cool details.
This channel is great! Amazing how creative engineers were in the pre-digital age. I might add that the knowledge level of the commenters is definitely above the TH-cam average. Added bonus: I get to brush up on my high school German.
quick note if it has not yet been said. "oil pressure" on the diagram is oil return, btw loving the content 👍
edit: never mind its been said 😁
Your videos are almost like free - not boring - high quality college course. Much respect from the edge of the world.
Wow. My head hasn't hurt so much since I went to the Allison Gas Turbine familiarization course and took training on operation of the Bendix hydromechanical fuel control for the TF-41 turbofan engine.
Waiting for a new video from Greg is akin to waiting for a new video from Hillsdale with Victor Davis Hanson.....much trepidation and unwarranted impatience.
However....I do know something good is on the horizon.
Thanks again !
VDH is a national treasure.
You triggered nostalgia , I have a Navigator's flight bag from Vietnam era and my own flag bag. I had to go look and see if I still have all my e6b, regular slide rule plotters
Lots of people don't understand an engine optimized for Aviation use is an absolute dog in an automobile and vice versa . The big conflict is the RPM range at which the engine produces its best power and torque. I thoroughly enjoyed this article and now I understand why we didn't adapt that technology to American aircraft engine constructions it would have required a full redesign.
Very good explaining and i think you are right about that particular kommandogerät being faulty. Very sharp observation. I would not have thought og that.
I learn something new every time I watch this video. 👍
Delightful and eloquent delivery - mistakes completely understandable give timeline - that is as intellectually interesting as anything otherwise. All speculation is genuine and justified. Fascinating subject matter and inspirational observation. Thanks.
Your technical & engineering knowledge is very impressive. Having been thur 40yrs of Initials & recurrents @ FSI/Simuflite the thing I find really amazing is your presentations are quite entertaining/NOT BORING!
"Thats all i have for now" a sad moment at the end of each video! Love your videos man!
Hi Greg...I've been interested in engines since I was out in hangers on NAS Corpus Christi at about 6 years old..I built first car engine--4 cylinder SOHC Saab/Triumph engine in 1978...Then full time building engines and transmissions since 1984,,, I lived and worked in Sweden for most of the 70s so speak and read English and Swedish as co-first languages but also learned French and german as I spent lots of time in both places racing all over Europe--moto-cross, not cars.. So I learned a lot about manufacturing while working over there including who make what for the OEM manufacturers... You mentioned the Kugelfischer injection system and the SPICA system on the Alfas.. My reading says the SPICA system is a licence built Kugelfischer system...Which some of us called "a glorified diesel pump"...I have seen somewhere the service manual for the Bosch system on the 801 and internally the pump part loos really REALLY similar to the Kugelfischer and SPICA pumps.. Like a lot of other earlier mechanical injection systems, they worked quite well for exactly what they were used on originally --Bosh K-Jet springs to mind.. But very VERY difficult to impossible for them to cope with modded engines making more power.. Oh well.
a side note..The Italians building licence built versions of German things we know has a long history..DB series for example..In cars we saw that FIAT in the 124 and 131 series of nice RWD cars, the 5 speed supplied was a licence built ZF. ZF we know was originally Zeppelin Fabrik, then Zandrad Fabrik in Friedrichshafen..just to put an aviation link back in..
For anyone interested there is another couple of places where mechanical computers still operate or did into the 1990s.
The place I know for certain because I have seen them in place is in the oil & gas industry where they have these types of mechanical computers for what is called "black starting." Black starting is wen you have absolutely NO electrical power at all which CAN happen after an emergency shutdown. Usually you rely on battery backups but even they can fail and then the final option is pure mechanical. So you can get mechanical computer control for generators that can be piston or turbine so you can re-establish electrical power.
The other place I believe they are still in use is in the nuclear power plants of military submarines and ships. I worked with an electrician a few years back who was and ex-USN powerplant operator. He didn't go into a lot of detail but basically told me there wasn't a lot of computer control on their power plants. One of the downsides of nuclear warfare is the EMP from nuclear detonations which scramble computer systems. Mechanical computers don't suffer from EMPs. So if you have mechanical computers on the power plant you still have the means for propulsion and steering if all the electronics fail as the result of an EMP.
Dang big buddy ! I got ya - Thanks man , very well done sir ! A lost art . Excellent -
We all should know these ways first ! Then … go for it if you choose .
I really enjoy your videos . Very cool stuff that some refer to as history . Makes solid sense .
The day that Greg doesn't use NACA in a detailed and in depth video we will know he has thrown in the towel.
The day Greg does a detailed and in depth explanation and history _of_ NACA my popcorn shall overfloweth.
I liked this article all along very much. Well it's not boring so it can be long!
Some mechanical computers are used as "automats" to control production lines also. I used to design and make work some of them in the 80s and 90s.
Kurt Tank's creations were full of interesting "smart" devices and pretty good solutions.
The old time world I grew up in was loaded with hydro/electro/mechanical computers, say an SU carburetor using manifold vacuum to control the mixture valve, or the thyristor in a VT fuze which uses feedback from the target to set itself off, or a planimeter or the controls of old school automatic transmissions. These things are usually but analog so you get continuous variability. The big drawback is that they tend to be single purpose.
I like how clearly you speak in these and how I always know if and to what degree what you are currently saying is related to the things you have already said in the video, even if I am listening to it while doing housework. While part of that may be due to me already having some background knowledge of some terms, it is a credit to the work you put into making these.
I can imagine a early P-38 pilot with not much training going up against a FW-190 and managing two touchy engines and dive restrictions, AND a inferior roll rate give the FW-190 a big advantage. No wonder so many were shot down. I would really enjoy you doing videos on rocket engines Greg. One of the big "what-if's" in history is if the space shuttle had been given liquid fuel boosters instead of the solid rocket boosters. Thanks for your videos.
I do have a couple videos on the Me163 rocket fighter.
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles I was thinking more Aerojet M-1 and Rocketdyne F-1...
@Gregs.... I spent 3900 hrs flying Chieftains in Alaska and can confirm that the manifold pressure was increased by the density controller in hot weather(@ 17:20) This maximum of course was adjusted by the mechanics and we as pilots very often felt they did not turn it up high enough! Some of our regular stops had quite short runways, one as short as 1700 feet. Great airplane! Did you ever get to fly one?
Hi Tim, yes, I have about 500 hours in them down in the lower 48. I also flew in Alaska, mostly 208s for Mark Air Express, if you remember that outfit.
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles Hi Greg...yes, I knew of Mark Air but they were kaputt when I got up there(1997). I had friends who flew for them. If you recall, the navajo also had a differential controller, which maintained set manifold pressure during climb/descent. I did not pick up whether the 190 control unit had this feature or not.
Did you know Gary Guy by chance?
Many, many thanks for this video! I have been hoping and waiting for it ever since you started the FW-190 series. The Kommandogerät have had my fascination since the first time I heard about it. I really appreciated the background info about mechanical computers. I will watch this video many times and read the referenced article and portions of the NACA report. I appreciate all the material in the Patreon's section. Reading the pilots handbooks for e.g. the P38 and P47 was great. Wish I could read German, but that's another project. Love the fact that I have access to German handbooks ans service manual. You do a great job with your channel!
I believe my father was the person at RAE during the war who deciphered the workings of the Kommandgerat and enabled an intact captured FW 190 to be flown by Bristish pilots. His drawings, which my family posess, were sent to the US to enable them to understand the Kommangerat, or ´Brain Box´ as it was termed at the time. I am trying to find out more about this, as Inbelieve it was probably the aircraft captured in June 1942, but am not sure as no dates appear on the technical drawings he made.
You remain the best in the business Greg! Another fantastic video that is very detailed but grounded and digestible
I ,for one, _love_ the in depth tech stuff! Keep it comming!
9:25, the load adjuster. I have one for the B-24 Liberator and have spent many hours manipulating the slide and watching the datum line move. It’s quite fascinating in my opinion
I am looking very much forward to see your new video regarding the Kommandogerat device that was a very advanced for it's time. 👍👍
Thanks Greg , i have been looking forward to this video on the komando gerat since you mentioned it some time ago, you did a amazing job of it , just the right amount of tecnical information combined with the advantages it gave the pilot , a very balanced overview brilliant!
Very enlightening video sir - thank you for all your efforts ! Cool stuff .
I learned the German love for complicated mechanical computers working on German book binding machinery. Love this stuff it's always neat to see the solutions from the past. Likewise the VW mechanical fuel injection system from the late 70s to mid 80s was something I loathed working on.
Makes two of us. Loathe and abhor. I remember the emotion well.
My old vw pickup( man did I love that thing) had a fuel injection system similar to a diesel. Distributor type pump with lines running from the pump to the injectors.
Hey Greg, I guess the mixture issue NACA find out during testing have something to do with the charged air temperature device not working at all. Because as the Kommandogerät Manual say, the supercharged air temperature was an input to compute mixture strength for the mixture control device in the Kommandogerät. And by the way you made an good video.
Awesome! Thank you for sharing from a GE Aviation jet engine design engineer. This was fun
Oh, if you worked on the CF6 80, well done. That's a great engine.
Love this video just for the explanation of mechanical computers.
Your videos are great stuff...always learn something new on subjects that interest me.
A video on the RAF's Saber and Saber II engines of the Typhoon/Tempest and late war Spits and Sea Fury would be very cool.
Yes, the sleeve valves are amazing and the H arrangement instead of V or radial is mind bending ;-)
Fascinating as always. Thanks for the consistently well researched videos, Greg.
There’s a balance to be struck between complexity and producibility, and personally I think German weapons of the Second World War often were too complex for their own good, but this seems like a case where the extra complexity would have paid off.
Not a serious suggestion really, but a comparison of the various mechanical fuel injection systems for cars (Alfa’s SPICA, Bosch’s Kugelfischer, Lucas’s and GM’s systems, etc.) would be very interesting. I know a reasonable amount about the SPICA, but next to nothing about the others.
Awesome video, thank you for making it. Another monument to the golden era of TH-cam self-made educational videos. And I'm not trying to sound cheeky or over the top, I really feel this way; I love this, what I call, mechanical art. Just signed up for the Patreon. Anyway, gotta strongly disagree with your comment about this technology being made unnecessary by jet engines. They're "relatively simple" precisely *because* of hydromechanical fuel controllers that were essentially the same thing as Kommandogerät, until the later introduction of electronic controllers (and finally, FADEC): inputs from various air pressures, sometimes temperatures, RPM's, etc, and of course the pilot's throttle lever, going through a panoply of rods, shafts, cams, gears, springs, bellows, bellcranks, flyweight governors, and other other magical bits... to output only fuel flow in the early days; but later also controlling the positions of variable stators, inlet guide vanes, compressor bleeds, and supersonic inlet and exhaust variable geometry. Take a look, for example, at the Hamilton Standard JFC 68 that controlled the JT9D.
Even in the early days of only fuel flow being controlled, controlling (slowly!) the rate of acc/deceleration was crucial when accelerating, to avoid rich blowout, or an overtemp, or fire, or compressor stall/surge; and when decelerating, avoiding lean blowout. Even in civilian flying (the only kind I've done) it's liberating (and not just in emotion, but actual task management) in knowing you can slam the levers forward or back to your heart's content, and the fuel controller will manage all this and only accelerate and decelerate the fuel flow in accordance with the engine's painstakingly slow spoolup/down time. Otherwise the pilot would have to do this themselves, with ultra-slow movement of the lever.
(36:48) Fuel delivery limitation - fully correct. When implementing C3 injection, they needed an additional pump (it was manifold-injected), because the main fuel delivery was at its limits.
I doubt that one could go too far away from the overly-rich mixtures below rated altitude(s) (1:9.1, 1:8.33), going from 1.3 to 1.42 ata, to call them too-lean for the power setting.
Hi Konstantin, which manifold Injektion on the BMW801 are you referring to?
Where on the engine do you see evidence for manifold injection?
Kind regards Ralf
It is about the "C3-injection", an emergency mode with extra charge-air cooling. It was used for the fighter-bomber versions and required additional 'hardware'.
The "main" fuel delivery system, supplying the standard injectors (direct injection) couldn't handle the extra required fuel-delivery-volume, so they had to add an extra parallel (add-on) system, including an additional fuel pump, hoses, injectors, etc. The mixture was enriched via those extra injector(s) in the manifold (where else to place them?).
Its description is located throughout the documents, dealing with C3-injection. Again, the 'main' fuel delivery in the BMW801 is via direct injection.
@@konstantinatanassov4353 Hi Konstantin,
Thank you very much for your Feedback.
The BMW801 actually did allways have additional fuel lines with small injectors close to the inlet ports.
These though were originally installed for pre engine start priming.
May be this hardware was later used for the C3 injection?
@@ralfschluter4252 Using the engine start priming injectors - those might have been used, but some extra equipment was still required - I'm still searching the document (or book) where I had read more about the system.
From other documents that I have, it is stated, that the C3-Injection runs with a volume flow of 65 Liters / Hour (presumably fixed), autonomous from the 'main' fuel delivery.
Once I get the proper information and sources, will get back to the thread.
Wonderful stuff as always. Incredible how interesting these technical deep dives can get and how relevant they are to the aircraft performance
oh man I have been waiting for this one!!!!!
The kommandogerät was able to keep rpm high while the pilot reduce power to use the propeller as a brake while diving. I think the 'dive lever (sturzflughebel)' activate this mode.
very interesting idea. Ability to dive without acceleration due to energyswap from potential energy to kinetic energy. a lever as a constand speed switch, so to say. maybe close to ground manouvering neccesarity? an advantage?
I think that's right. I think the dive mode is for when the prop is driving the engine.
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles What was it linked to? The NACA report seems to not mention it.
You make great videos Greg! Keep up the good work.
Well do I recall the headaches I got learning to use the Jeppesen Rotary Slide Rule, while bouncing around in a Piper Tri Pacer over West Texas... Gads, Greg, you do stir up the memories.
A Porsche/Mooney aircraft. Don't really know why but I want one too. At 6'2" I probably wouldn't fit inside but maybe?
Finally a video about the Kommandogerat!
Such a system seems to not only dramatically easing flying and engine management but to engine start up as well, I often wonder why such a system is never really took off for GA here in the U.S. Having seen and started up a Cessna 150 for RPM drop and Throttle adjustment practicals at my A&P school and seeing how finicky that was compared to the FW-190A is in DCS it makes me jealous.
Unfortunately for all these new engines and their simple automotive derived electronic engine control, their automotive heritage and frequent lack of full development and support leaves the Continental and Lycoming engines free to continue in use. They may be finicky but they are a known quantity.
Another splendidly informative video on a much praised but little understood system, great work Greg.
For non-combat uses, cheaper and simpler to leave this complexity in the pilot's brain rather than in the mechanical device. There are twinklings of improvement, though. I remember doing a flight in a DA-42 with single lever (per engine) control, and a "% thrust" indication.
I’ve pretty much gathered all the hardware needed for my flight sim platforms and am about ready to start w the software. I can’t tell you how much I’m looking forward to applying what I’ve learned on this channel to my ‘airplanes.’ I’m especially eager to set up flight tests in order to simulate conditions laid out in the numerous NACA and pilots handbook performance graphs and charts you’ve referenced. I’m curious to see the engine controls for an FW-190 simulator to see how closely it follows a device like the AEC. My second chance at becoming a test pilot. Also, I chased down a copy of the NACA report used in this vid, it’s unbelievable how much data is in them! No wonder you use them. How much fun would it have been to be an engineer tasked with setting up the conditions to create these reports…
13:25 Dive leaver - the German word is for dive flight lever
- Sturzflug is diving down at a steep angle e.g. like a Stukka where the “Stu” also derives from Sturz
- lever is a knob or a switch lever to adjust or turn something on and off
Thanks Greg, can't see this anywhere else. I wonder how often they developed faults, the 190 being designed as the warhorse of the skies.
But as a feature, clearly an innovation.
@@danweyant707 definitely very useful; the pilot has to do less, means he can devote more to the real business. Probably quite reliable, but I wonder.
@@billbolton as someone who's owned several BMW motorcycles, I can appreciate that ( the good & bad)
Per German war-time evaluation, not a problematic (i.e., was very reliable) device, with sufficient, supply chain replacement availability.
American battleships used mechanical fire control computers through the 1980's. According to the curator of the battleship New Jersey the US Navy considered replacing the mechanical computers with digital computers but they decided that there wouldn't be any significant advantages to the change.
Reliability (at the time), also. You don't want a tube (or relay) to fail in the middle of a naval gunfight.
Electronic (digital or analog) computers were used to design the cams used in them.
Ah. Finally.... Thank you Greg.
Very interesting. I had no idea something like this existed.
I still remember my flight instructor smacking me with the checklist yelling, "Mixture Prop Throttle Prop Mixture!"
What an absolutely amazing control devise for its time... all analog...
Bosch did a similar system to the Spica. Usually it's known by MFI - mechanical fuel injection. Used by some 60s-70s Porsches, street and racing with great success. Later replaced by K-jetronic and its variants. It had some limitations but it was far more economical.
Excellent presentation. Be blessed 🙌
Nicely done, as usual, and - also as usual - comprehensible to an old guy who is neither engineer nor pilot.
Outstanding video and presentation.
Greg, as a mechanical engineer I believe that I have an explanation for the lean mixture fuel reports, although i'm not good enough to use as a source as I'm not an aircraft or ww2 engine expert. As Konstantin Atanassov in a comment prior pointed out, there is an issue in fuel delivery, and it's a weakness specific to direct fuel injection engines.
To explain it simply, while an indirect fuel injector can operate from 0 duty cycle (fuel cutoff) to 1 duty cycle (continuous fuel operation), and even then it never operates at 1 for fuel atomization reasons, a direct fuel injector can only operate from 0 duty cycles to 0.25, as it can only be opened between the intake and the compression stroke. So given the same technology, the direct fuel injection has less capability to vary the amount of fuel required, which isn't a problem for a continuous diesel generator running at broadly constant power settings, but a big problem for combat aircraft with big range of power setting from idle to max.
To be able to have a rich mixture at high power settings, you have to make the injectors so big that the fuel pump can't deliver the correct amount of fuel at idle (as you see in the naca report), which is made worse by the fuel pump design which reduces both timing and pressure to reduce fuel, meaning the engine gets horrendous bore washing at idle and warmup from both the excessive fuel mixture and the poor atomization from the low pressure (which is why modern direct fuel injectors are common rail). This is probably a late war engine so it didn't matter, but early engines probably used smaller injectors to reduce this problem and extend engine life.
There are many solutions to this problem; the best solution then and now is to combine direct with indirect fuel injection, leaving direct fuel injection to handle idle and cruise by itself while adding indirect injection for max power. The germans apparently did this for MW50 immediately, so they knew about it. As to why didn't do it for every post 1942 plane I can only speculate, but it could be a technical problem (either adding a special pump coordinated with the original pump or redesigning the original pump for more injectors isn't trivial), it could be a procurement problem (which solution is best, improving engines for B4 fuel, converting to mw50, converting to c3?) or even a problem of pride (direct injection system shouldn't require inferior technologies so didn't accept they need to change - mw50 has the excuse it's injecting a completely different type of fuel).
As for the rest, I'll only say that from experience intake air sensor are very unreliable, they're either very slow (mechanical types), or the calibration goes out very quickly (electric resistors); I dare even say they only got good lasting materials in the last 30 years or so. So I can certainly understand frustrated engineers deciding to ignore it, or maybe the sensor wasn't already working despite the engine being new...
Per “The Great Horsepower Race” By Calum Douglas, the Germans were using valve overlap so that pressurized intake air could cool the exhaust valves. This was a particular problem because they lacked sufficient supplies of the metals needed to make high temperature resistant alloys. Does this obviate the use of injection system with both direct and indirect injection?
@@richardschaffer5588 No, even race engines with carbs used a lot of valve overlap to be able to make power at high revs, they just throw some unburned fuel out through the exhaust instead of simply air. The fuel air mixture doesn't ignite because the post combustion gases dilute it too much and the exhaust valve by itself isn't hot enough to ignite it (if it were that hot the engine wouldn't even be able to start the compression stroke without knocking as the exhaust valve is always present in the combustion chamber), although the mixture would burn in the exhaust manifold if you delayed or misfired the ignition timing enough (like it's done in certain turbo anti-lag systems).
The penalty for excessive valve overlap is instable idle, loss of power at low revs, poorer fuel consumption and poor emissions. Direct fuel injection only helps with the latter two, which helps direct injection 2 stroke engines pass modern standards, but wouldn't actually matter to a wartime airplane engine. And an injection system with both would use indirect injection only when necessary.
@@luisgoncalo6166 direct injection definitely helps with MUCH more than what you said. There's a reason why turbocharged engines today with direct injection can run much higher boost pressures without knock. In chamber cooling, amongst other things. That book by calum douglas also explains this, and as he was a mechanical engineer working in an f1 team, I think he knows a thing or two about this stuff
With your translations at 11:45, there is only one that is really completely wrong in terms of the meaning, and that is "Ölrücklauf". That one means "oil return", as in the pipe to return the oil to the oil system.
Also, as for what Duz means... I have no solid knowledge on that either, but I think it might be an abbreviation for "Druck- und Zuggestänge", aka push-pull linkage? The dive lever (which you did translate correctly)... maybe it changes how the propeller pitch control behaves to avoid overspeeding the engine in a dive?
Did this aircraft have a similar feathering system for use in the dive, like the ME/BF-109?
Omg I can't fricken wait!!! German WW2 planes are my obsession so I LOVE watching these!! Thanks so much Greg Can't wait!! Oh and I think I speak for everyone when I say, WE WANT A DEEP-DIVE VIDEO ABOUT THE STUKA!!! 😁🛩️
Thanks James, I'll cover the Stuka after Bismark's book come out.
Fantastic Greg!! Keep it coming this precious informations!
I love this detailed walk throughs!
Hey Greg - as always, hugely informative and entertaining video, thanks much. No 'German viewers straightened you out' yet I don't think and of course it doesn't matter and I'm certainly not criticising pronunciation - but 'Gerät' is pronounced somewhere between 'guh-rate' and 'geh-rate', if that's of any interest.
The 'ät' is pronounced like 'eight'. Gerät is the German word for device.