Why was the BF109K faster than the P51D? MW 50!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ค. 2018
- How did the Germans boost the speeds of the late model Messerschmitt BF 109s so high? The short answer is with MW 50 methanol-water injection. This video is long and technical, but if you wan't the long answer, please watch. I'll cover C3 fuel, and Methanol Water injection in great detail, and how the systems were set up in the BF109 G14, G14 AS, G10, and K4
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The concepts in two of my previous videos are important for this video, they are:
P51 Manifold pressure: • P51 Mustang Manifold P...
BF109G vs P51D in speed: • Why was the BF109 so s...
Source for the Goering comment: speedreaders.info/2224-ricardo/
Other sources are NACA, as usual for my videos, and kurfurst.org for various testing reports. That involved a lot of google translate as a lot of it is in German.
Those PSI number at about 13:50 are MANIFOLD PRESSURE IN INCHES HG, NOT PSI. My mistake there. - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
People are always arguing about WW2 aircraft and how BF109s are overrated and so on but think of this. Germany stuck to this airframe for the ENTIRE war and every time the 109 was outclassed, they made it competetive again in various different ways. You got to respect this aircraft's ability to be modified.
K-4 & D-9 just makes me want to visit in some alternate universe where the numbers of the planes were equal to their allies counterparts just to see how would the matchup looked then. my personal guess would be that with the lack of formidable late war turn fighter the german planes would still have lost, but damn they could have still got it pretty even when they could really have utilized the team tactics with this combo.
The BF 109 had one of the lowest man hours required to build, and was the easiest to transport of all the German planes. (landing gear was part of the fuselage structure) This was part its popularity.
Wasn't Spain still using them till around 1961?
@@ghoulunathics The 109 was a great turn fighter, better than any P-51, P-47, P-38 etc., in the ETO only the Spitfire was better.
@@coollasice4175 No? Just stating the facts. P-51's claim to fame was how fast & far it could fly, no small achievement, but it wasn't a particularly great dogfighter, here defensive fighters such as the Bf-109 & Spitfire were better.
I LOVE the Bf109 K-4.
If there was one plane I could fly EVER, it would be a K-4. No contest at all.
It’s fun to fly in WW2 combat sims. My fav 109 is the K4R4. Might not roll or maneuver well at high speed but it can sure dictate the terms of the combat.
IRL they had big reliability problems due to lack of materials and... unwilling (as you may imagine) slave labor.
As someone mentioned in this comment section, during the Battle of Britain a lot of the Bf109s would suffer catastrophic failures mid fight.
@@reinbeers5322 yeah those failure are called running out of fuel. Lol
@@reinbeers5322 there was no slave labour in 1940, the German economy ran on peacetime schedule.
@Icosikaitetragon Oops! Your engines blew up on the runway and you are now gravely injured. Roll a D-20 for Saving Throw.
I am finding myself unable to keep up with all of the comments. I do read them and will use them to decide what topics to cover next. I have a lot more planned. A lot of you have mentioned the FW190 and P47. I'll cover both of those in great detail. I will get to the Russian and British planes as well. There are some reasons I made these videos first. The Wildcat, 109, and P51 engines serve to cover a lot of the key principles that are needed to understand some of the other planes. Now that most of my viewers understand supercharger stages and drive systems, along with manifold pressure, and methanol:water injection, it's a lot easier to move forward. I couldn't start with the TA152 because it just has too much tech in it, and it would need a 2 hour video if I needed to explain it's multi stage supercharger, intercooler, MW50 and GM-1.
I appreciate all of your view, and comments, and a lot more videos are coming.
Greg, if (the biggest word in the English language) the RLM and Junkers had gotten the Jumo 222 to work reliably the Allies would have had a handful with the FW-190 so equipped. Not that it would of made any difference in the long run. A likely counter would have been the P-72 Ultrabolt version of the P47 powered by the Pratt & Whitney R-4360. Thankfully the Germans had too many projects sucking up too many resources to go along with too much infighting amongst the project managers and developers.
www.jagdgeschwader4.de/index.php/flugwerft-hauptraum/jaeger/messerschmitt-bf-109 i think in these pictures you can see the injection system on top of the cylinder heads of the g6
@@mpetersen6 From my knowledge, the biggest (longest) word in the English language describes a lung disease contracted form silicon particles from the ash of volcanoes. Don't see how that's relevant here.
@@maxdwyer8761
If as in "If only I...….", "If we would have...………..
Thanks I can't wait to watch those also how about the F4Us and Oscar and the F6F and A6Ns. The Corsair is my favorite warbird. I even met a couple of pilots of it when reading a book on it in the early 80's one was C.E. Harris!
Why do you only have 30K subs? Your work and commenting are absolutely genius! You should do sessions in this showing engineering/tech students how crazy the engineers were in war times. Absolutely stunning mechanics. Cheers
Thank you very much. My videos appeal to a relatively small audience. That's OK with me. There are channels that do nothing more than put up easy to find file photos of WW2 planes while they read facts from Wikipedia and they get far more views and subscribers that way. However I feel there is a need to get the deeper information out there, so that's what I am doing.
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles Hi Greg! I revisited this classic oldie and believe I have probable answer to your Q why not earlier with MW 50. It was about head gaskets and catastrophic oil leaks. I think they succeeded improving the technology after HJM's tragic death and go for more boost.
120K subs!
@@Dsdafg Greg is better than the Discovery and History channel, squared! 😀
You have no idea how much I love these videos.
Me too. How much?
@@michaelmcneil4168 you have no idea
Yup, we do. Cuz we do.
Please do one of these on later 190 Dora models and/or Ta152s. Thanks!
Luka Slović
Agree! I would love to see a video about the Dora or ta 152 !
Please please please please do that
You guys got your wish and I got to learn about a 190 variant that may as well have been a u-2. Thanks for catching Greg's ear!
The Dora is here, rejoice!
@@asiftalpur3758 old British money old British money
I ran MW50 in my Shelby Daytona when I was over 18lbs of boost. Fantastic antiknock solution. About a gallon of toluene in the tank and I could run almost 3 bar absolute manifold pressure.
Greg you are my unsung hero. What you do, and how you do it, is in many ways, well, quite German! We call it "sachlich", a unique German word for factual, matter-of-fact, objective, to the point, all in a single word.
Well said my friend.
Or as we Swedes say it; 'Sakligt'!
@@vladdrakul7851 i see what you did there hahahaha :D
In Danish we have "Fagligt", it means "to the subject"
The English equivalent would probably be “incisive”.
“Recommended” has never been so right
Greg, thank you for all you time and effort into this video -it's welcomed and sincerely appreciated!
Been watching a few of your videos lately, and have to say I feel like I'm learning a lot of wonderful technical information and love you presentations! Keep up the great work!
My dad loves WW2 aviation history and we’ve bonded while watching your videos. Thank you, Greg.
Your videos are fantastic, thank you for continuing to make them.
Great video! Really enjoyed your technical details and the way you put things into context!
I literally just found this channel some 2 days ago. You have answered some long standing questions of mine relating to the advantages that the mustang had over the bf109 as well as given me new information that has been extremely interesting. Thank you, sir, for your content and I look forward to every future video
I'm not a tech inclined guy... But somehow you manage to captivate me and simplify the tech jargon to easily understandable English. Hats off to you for such brilliance!
I just found this channel. Congrats for the quality!
Holy moly this is the channel I’ve needed in my life. I’ve loved all these planes and could never find details about supercharger and turbocharger systems employed by them. And just the mechanics of these engines! Subscribed immediately.
Oh, thank you :)
The added benefit was that, even only used for boost, if this had been used early on, the fuel savings would have been significant.
Germany could easily produce methanol, while gasoline resources were very limited near the end of the war.
Thank for the fair analysis of the aircraft . Excellent data. Can’t wait to see more.
You explain things so clearly and well in your videos......thanks!
Very detailed. As a mechanical engineer I learned a great deal. I did not know that WM injection was an antiknock technique. Thanks.
The United States introduced water injection on the P47. The system was very powerful but initially they didn’t put in enough ethanol (for colder European Weather) at one point they accidentally put in isopropyl alcohol. Initially Thunderbolt pilots were reluctant to activate their water injection for fear of blowing up their engine over enemy territory.
William Jones-Halibut that’s a damn good reason to be reluctant
OMG! So many data provided! Great video as usual! Thanks for upload Greg!
Lovely video Greg, always a pleasure to listen to your detailed information. =)
Thanks for another super video on a topic that has been of great interest (and contention) on the internet since those first AOL message boards et al. so many years ago.
My cousin is proud you made a video on him.
Very well done and easy to understand. As much as I've studied WW2 combat aircraft, I wasnt aware there were faster than the P-51D, BF109s. Learn something new every day. Thank you for doing this!
another very informative Video Greg, well done.
Greg this is another great video. I love watching these videos of yours. You are so informative and have so much technical information in these videos that it proves you have done exhaustive research. Another thing about a video of yours I watched the other day detailed the super charging system of the German Planes. This was a great Video as well. Thank you for such great information. Please keep up the good work Sir.
Methanol+H2O injection= performance boost.
Greg's channel+new video= knowledge boost!
Metric greetings from Norway!
great presentation man. Thank you for your effort and the info.
I truly enjoy your educational films. The way you try and stick to verifiable facts and then explain it in a very simple way so people not in the industry can understand.
Greg, your youtube channel is simply the best channel on WW2 military aviation history I have seen to date. I am working on my PhD in Military History and I have enough of an engineering background that I am not intimidated by the science or mathematics involved in understanding basic aeronautics. Many of my professors have published academic works on airpower in World War II. Your videos are fantastic. You have a remarkable ability to make these complex topics understandable and interesting. I really don't think one can understand the nature of the air war without a basic understanding of the technology and engineering involved. Would you please create some videos on the significance of the airframe drag coefficient, on level flight acceleration, and on the relative roles of lift and power in climb performance? Thanks. Looking forward to your future productions.
Hi Ben, thanks! I will do all of those things, I think you will be happy with the some of the tech coming in my P47 videos. My knowledge in aerodynamics is below my knowledge of engines, but we have some interesting stuff coming up that involves a lot of NACA aerodynamic stuff.
Pure gold. I've come full circle on researching these topics and you nail every single one and address many areas that confused me, or were not on my radar at at one point. If only some of this technology could be utilized in modern civil piston aero engines.
Sadly, piston aviation technology peaked in about 1946. Most of the modern piston engines in aircraft are no more advanced. The manufacturers blame the inability to innovate on liability, I'm not so sure, but that's a topic for another time.
Yes Greg, I love your Documentaries! Cheers from Down Under, Christchurch New Zealand!
Great video good sir! I'm currently in Aviation Maintenance Technician School and I love seeing video's like this! Keep up the great work. You have a new subscriber. 👍👍
I had a great day. Because you've done another great video ! Thanks sir ! Cheers from France.
Darn, you sound like a real life teacher! Very well done video!
A followup video on water injection in both production and racing vehicles would be the icing on the cake. 🤞. Love your channel. The pinnacle of TH-cam.
Another super-interesting video with a provocative "what if" at the end. Thanks, Greg.
Greg, you always have amazing videos.
Very interesting & entertaining! FYI: A Czech company “JaPo” publishes (with English translation) a very well researched book titled what else: “Messerschmitt Bf109 K4”. It discusses in detail the origin of the “K” variant and includes a page about the MW50 system (with decent line drawings). There is also several pages regarding the DB605L & DB605D power plants (with power setting and manifold pressure information). It’s a very good read on the last of many...
I want to read that book - maybe the university library has a copy.
@Alfons Falkhayn The copy I have was published: JaPo: M.Horakove 273, Hradec Kralove, 500 06 Czech Republic (Ing. T. Poruba & Ing. A. Janda) You might be able to find a copy on the “Secondary Market”. It is printed in “Czech” (with English translation). It is IMHO a most interesting read and has many excellent illustrations, line drawings and photos!
@@patnolen8072 Hi Pat, It’s as authoritative a read as you will find on the “Kurfürst” variant. I purchased my copy thru one of the “scale model” magazine publishers when it came out but I can’t recall which. It did sell out quickly. “JaPo” is still in biz perhaps they can guide you to a copy. Good luck! www.japo.eu/products.php?cat=6_200
Loved the technical specs and explanation! Thanks!
I always learn something interesting with each of your videos.
Nice discussion. One and only ONE point to make. Your assessment of "what if" regarding the use of the MW50 system in 1940,...as simple a fix as it MIGHT have represented, is also squarely in the realm of 20/20 hindsight. Great video and I truly appreciate, and look forward to your discussions !! Much obliged !!
Absolutely fascinating. I never thought about the fuel as I did the aerodynamics. To think that it took 4 years of very hard work to double the horse power. Thanks for your knowledge and expertise in explaining the complexity of the fuel
Another GREAT video, Greg! I finally understand the various forms of water/methanol injection
Greg, another fantastic job! Thanks for the education!
Your conclusion at the end is an interesting one, I'll check this for ya in germany.
Fabulous run down on the 109 series. Thanks ,for posting most of the details to moderate depth. I really like the way you generalize and some up the details, configuration and and scenarios
What about doing a break down of the Bear Cat?
Interesting analysis at the end, very enjoyable video, thanks.
Great info, very informative. Learned quite a bit about methanol water injection today. Thank tou
Just REEKS of authoritative! Great stuff, well presented. Thanks, Greg!
Extremely informative Greg, thanks. I’m now about to install a MW system on my old air cooled turbo 930 engine...
Just curious...If I tried to inject mw at the intake would there be enough manifold pressure if the engine wasn't turbocharged? jforbey@yahoo.com
@@hellonwheels6887 Might wanna change your profile picture. The Feds won't play with that shit bro
This was an excellent video!!!
Thank you for doing it. I actually have wondered about this exact question many times. Im fascinated by all things WW2 (regarding the machines of that war).
Another great video Greg.
Water injection was used on the KC-135 tanker aircraft with the J57 engines. The 5581 pounds of water would be used up in two minutes on takeoff. Part was injected behind the combustion section where it turned to steam, providing mere thrust. The bulk was injected into the intake. It would cool the incoming air, and make the air denser. Cool dense air expanded more than hotter air, increasing thrust.
Thanks for all the informations. Amazing video.
Good stuff! Just joined recently and really enjoying your videos. Fills gaps I have wondered about for a long time.
REALLY enjoyed this video..
..thanks for your efforts.
nice analysis, thanks for sharing !
I was lucky enough to get a copy of P-51 Pilots Manual & Work around Them(Pilots & Crew from Reno)... You Do Good Work. Sir.
I just want to say: thank you so much for your video. It explained the Wasser Methanol injection system in a way that even I, a non mechanic, could understand. Greetings from Sweden and from Bo Hoffman
Thanks Bo!
Really enjoy your work, thanks
KUDOS, KUDOS and KUDOS to you, Sir.!!!
THAT'S the kind of Internet and TH-cam I like.!!
SERIOUS, TECHNICAL and SCIENTIFIC, (grown up), as it allways should be.
I think your commentaries ARE EVEN INPORTANT for the World History, in a real correct technical point of view.
I think your LESSON is so important, that I'm going tho write down all your comments.
Thanks again for posting such a great video, Sir.!!!
( I was a professional aviator, - jets - for 40 years, and love to learn those things about piston engines, even today).!!!
Many thanks again, Sir.!!!
Greg, a very informed and balanced review of the benefits of the MW50 system. Thank you.
Great stuff, love the detail.
An excellent and clear explanation! Subscribed.
Your work is well done, as is your presentation. Top marks to you.
Yeah, he's very detailed.
Outstanding material .
Thank you. Excellent description.
Highly enjoyable and informative to watch one your videos before jumping in the subject plane in a flight sim, thanks.
Thanks a ton for including Metric Measurements, it really helps a lot.
Very interesting discussion
Funny, I subscribed an hour or two ago and you uploaded this as soon as I checked my subscriptions. I feel special.
It was all for you Gypsy.
Thank you for your research and clear communication!
"This video is long and technical" just what i want :-)
Good content, keep going. I suggest the P-51H next.
I am going to get away from the P51 for a little while. Since the P51H never saw combat in WW2 it's lower on my list. I really need to cover the turbocharged fighters and FW190s first.
P47??? 😁
Tired of P-51 and other Spitfires. Seriously. So many great machines other than those two hollywood stars.
I haven't made a video about the Spitfire. I promise I'll stay away from the P51 for a while.
I definitely second that!!
Great education for Me Greg . I used water Methanol with great success on My 86 Buick Grand National . Thanks for great history and insight on this topic.
Fascinating stuff. You are to be congratulated.
Incredible video! Totally subbing to your channel. I just wish I'd found it sooner
Thanks. A fair amount of homework and a very neat, succinct delivery. (Quite the boffin)- lingua franca circa 1940 s. Keep it up, you're good at it
Thank you, great topic please keep doing this.
Very thorough and methodical. Thumbs up! :)
Thanks for your summaries, which have been quite fascinating for this old remnant of Farnborough (RAE) and Pyestock (NGTE), in that they have been as technically precise as it has been possible to be, I feel sure. I agree with "I Fly Central" has written. The year after next will be Hindsight Year, as it will be "20-20 AD". _he hee._
I just love the way the cannon shoots through the propeller !!! Anyone else ?
Yes, me!
And you meant through the spinner, right?
(I saw a scowl form on the face of an old pilot once when someone said 'through the propeller')
But yes, it is one of those mousetraps that is so simple, it is genius.
The P39 had it is well, although even larger cannon (37mm)
I wonder if it was the failure of the P39 that led others to stay away from it. I say failure in the sense of not chosen for mass production. The Russians apparently did quite well with it and seemed to have been more successful with it than with any other lend lease aircraft...including the Spit.
Straight as an arrow, no worry about the pre or post harmonization (or whatever the term is) for the convergence or over-convergence of the guns.
I guess that the P38 takes first place in that measure, but as good as it was for fire power, I always thought there was room for more 50 cals or even one or 2 more 20mm in its nose.
Could you imagine a lightning with the firepower of a p47...plus a 20mm?!
Just sayin...
.....enough nerding out on planes, cheers!
The Russians build more fighters that firing through the propellers than did the Germans. It was just a feature that helped smaller fighters carry a single cannon.
Ron Lawson Araconda shoots thru the spinner also. Engine was not supercharged and behind the cockpit. The wings were too short.
Gotta love that inverted V configuration!
@@hoodoo2001 the engine weight counterbalanced the recoil from the cannon. Love it!
Great presentation Greg, very informative even for old engineers like me! Ciao, L
Thanks Greg, another good one
Beautiful. Just beautiful. And yes: MW-50 stands for 'Methanolwasser-50'. Methanol is exactly the same both in english and german and 'Water' is 'Wasser'. 50 stands for 50% Mixturerate. Easy as that ;D
Keep up the great wörk Greg! I love your videos!
Thanks for the German words. I am going to start saying Methanolwasser, I like the way it sounds. Oh, and my name is Greg. George is some other guy.
My fault. Corrected and makes sence now. :)
Methanol-Wasser please, not as a compound word. As a compound it means the same as if I said in english "methanolied water"; Makes no sense. So, 2 separate words.
Wonderful love the tech data. Please do a vid. on the Ta - 152.
highly enjoyable as always. thanks for the metric references.
Very well researched, thank you.
Great Stuff! The 109 is my favorite Warbird.
KC PMII yes sir, P-40 Is my favorite Allied warbird. Nothing wears the shark mouth like a Flying Tiger !
I think the simplest explanation as to why the Germans didn't push MW-50 on use on earlier Bf 109 and Fw 190 models is that they simply didn't think they needed additional engine power at that point (as much as the pilots probably would have disagreed), and they were having some issues with their engines already at their "normal" power ratings.
The Germans in fact had a lot of problems with the DB 601 engines on Bf 109 E- and F-series and also the DB 605A engines on the G-series, which forced them to operate lengthy periods of time with de-rated manifold pressure settings. The DB 605A for example was initially rated for 1.42ata, then it was de-rated to 1.3ata, possibly approving and de-appriving the full ratings once or twice, and then the full 1.42ata rating was finally approved sometime in 1943. The DB 601 engines had similar things happening to them. Sometimes these de-rating decisions were made to make the engines last longer before the engine had to be swapped and re-built, sometimes to fix acute reliability issues (I think I remember something about wrong type of spark plugs getting fouled up, for example).
With that in mind, it's quite understandable why the Germans would've been a bit apprehensive of squeezing even more power out of engines that were sometimes quite problematic to operate.
In addition to this, the Bf 109 F-2, F-4, and G-2 were already some of the best performing fighter aircraft in terms of power to weight ratio. MW-50 might have increased their power output even more, *but* it simply wasn't needed in 1941 or 1942, and it would have increased the stress on the engine components, reducing engine life time and increasing the risk of in-flight engine failures.
By late 1943, the situation had changed to absolutely necessitate the introduction of MW-50 systems for Bf 109 G-6. Since the boffins at Daimler-Benz had apparently figured out a way to implement it in a way that didn't compromise the reliability or service life of the DB 605A-series engine, they started making the new engines with the MW-50 system installed as DB-605AM, and doing field installations of the injection kit as DB-605A(M).
And to be fair to the Germans, it doesn't seem like anyone else started actually using anti-detonant injection systems on fighters much earlier than this, either. So to me it seems like almost everyone started using some sort of anti-detonant injection systems as soon as they were necessary, when the power requirements and therefore manifold pressure requirements increased beyond what was possible with "conventional" methods.
thats true. in some other video somebody said military is used to stick with the things that work. and it worked good. they could improve aerodynamics of the plane much earlier too.
english put 5 bladed propellers on some variants of spitfire so i wonder how would that work... but again its kind of pointless to say what they could have done
I would have thought the lack of high octane fuels would have spurred it early on. The British had an ample supply of high octane fuel early on from the Americans, and would be running 145 by the end of the war. Germany spent most of it with 87 which to me absolutely boggles the mind.. though having direct injection engines and variable speed superchargers took maximum advantage of it.
Enjoyed this very much, great info.
Loving these videos, this kind of stuff has fascinated me since I was a kid, I am 35 now and it is all paying off with me working on my car. I am fascinated by almost all things mechanical, but engines and how they work, I love the physics behind how the power is made. I am a nerd car enthusiast :P
Love it!
Told you!
The German engines were bigger displacement, but were not actually larger or heavier.
They did not have oil pans, but an oil tank in front if the engine like some race cars.
Thanks so much for units in metric an as much for your video contents. They are great!
You're welcome. Some people asked for that, and I do listen to my viewers.
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Thanks for his comment in Metric AND in Imperial /US, as in aviation we use A LOT of English /US measurements.!!!
(For instance, for speed, we use knots, or mph, for altitude, we use feet, for distance, we use miles, but for weight, we use kilos).!!!
I rather units in metric A Rodrigues, so I leave Greg my appreciation for his effort on doing so. But if you will, you can leave your acknowledgments for the units of your preference too, doing it with respect.
Very informative, you've got good book in you .
Very informative, easy to understand even for a person who does not have English as a native language, nor is an engine mechanic, but a humble electrician... :-)
Got to check out your other stuff on the channel.
Cheers