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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2024
- A Dark and Bloody Ground: The Hurtgen Forest and the Roer River Dams
With Edward G. Miller
Part of a series of shows about the battles for the Hürtgen Forest - September 1944 to February 1945
• The Hürtgen Forest
A victorious American army, having driven through Belgium almost unopposed, ran head-on into German soldiers on their own home ground, in some of the most rugged country in western Germany-and at the beginning of the worst fall and winter weather in decades. In late 1944, American forces advanced into the hilly, heavily wooded Hürtgen Forest southeast of Aachen, Germany. For weeks, without a clear-cut reason for attacking through the forest, U.S. commanders nevertheless ordered units of as many as seven divisions into the woods to be chewed up by German infantry and artillery. Small units, cut off by the rugged terrain and trees, unable to employ tanks or artillery effectively, fought entrenched and camouflaged Germans in the woods and villages of the region. The troops were exposed to rain, sleet, and freezing temperatures without proper winter clothing. Many companies suffered huge numbers of casualties. The Battle of the Bulge interrupted the Hürtgen Forest battles but did not end them. The Bulge provided a hiatus for the wartorn countryside around the forest and the Roer River dams.
Edward G. Miller is a retired army ordnance officer. His most recent assignment was to the army's Command and General Staff College, where he completed most of this study in his off-duty hours. He earned the B.A. and M.P.A. degrees from Western Kentucky University and has completed several military training programs. His previous publications include articles in Armor and Ordnance magazines concerning development of U.S. armor doctrine.
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Outstanding gentleman. My grandpa was in 1st division and always said after Omaha first wave that hurtgen was prolly the roughest. Aachen was tough. But he said hurtgen they lost allt of good boys he worded it. How he ever made it from north Africa, Sicily, france and Germany and only got wounded twice and survived is beyond me. Bronze star at Troina. Never said how he got it. He passed in 2014 at age 95 so this series makes me feed a connection with his stories on the battles.
Nothing but pure respect and thankfulness to your grandfather from Alberta 🇨🇦
@@manunited7198 💯
Viewers of the live broadcast ask great questions that I wouldn't even think to ask. I try to think of good questions, but thank heavens for those who come up with insightful questions.
Don't worry Sheila, a topic will come up that you'll have a good question to ask about. The topics covered on the WW2TV channel are all encompassing, so its just a matter of time.
come and join us on the live chat side bar; I have made good friends and learned so much, just from being a part of the side bar motley crew of WW2tv for about 2 years now. I've asked many questions which were of a naive/newbie manner, Paul and everyone are respectful of those of us who aren't as mature in our knowledge. hope to see you on the side bar soon!
@@loreleikomm5802 I try to get on as many live shows as I can. I watch them later if I miss one. I'm always impressed by the questions people think to ask and what the viewers know. I've seen you comment in the live chats which is awesome. I love to learn so much.
A good start by Edward to the fighting in the Hürtgenwald. I look forward to hearing more.
Great talk. Book ordered. Looking forward to the other talks.
Excellent presentation today by Mr Miller. This is depressing listening to--casualty rates remind me of the Civil War or WW1. Great job again Paul--thanks!!!!
Thanks Paul and Edward. Great show. I am relatively virgin to the Hürtgen forrest... Good introduction! Grüße
Fantastic presentation of Mr. Miller. Great kick-off for the Hurtgen Forest themed week here.
looking forward to your presentation in a few days!
Excellent presentation! This is a battle that has been "lost" amongst Normandy, Market Garden & Battle of the Bulge.
Just like the Lorraine. The American failures like Hurtgen and Lorraine tend to get swept under the carpet and whitewashed by many. Its not a surprise why.
Lost on purpose it would not surpriseme to learn that Hurtgen would have been secret for may years after WW2 .Reputations of many senior Generals would have been ruined.
My late friend Acie Taylor of Geneva, AL was a M1917 machine gunner in the battle (132 lbs and carried that thing from Utah Beach Day 2 to central Germany). It was one thing about his war he never talked about in detail other than it was pure hell. He told me there were things he would take to his grave, and did.
My Dad was in the 5th armored Division CCR enlisting in the Army in 1940. He rarely spoke about his combat experiences but occasionally would speak about the difficulties of war. He’d mentioned certain aspects of war by the dates on the calendar, reviewing the days he took part in. He’d say a few words about the Huertgen campaign but never enough for me to understand and now know why. For all he went through his sadness and most regrettable is the loss of his best friend Gordon Skoog from Minnesota in the crossing of the Meuse River in Meziers France. He was a good Dad, missing him with the research I’m now committed to.
Thank you for this series about the Hurtgen Forest campaign. The weather, the terrain and other tactical and strategic issues all conspired to make this a horrible, attritional campaign. Thanks to Edward Miller for presenting a great overview of the the Hurtgen and the human cost.
You are welcome Steve
One of my favorite shows ever on WW2TV to date. Edwards' book is the cornerstone for understanding the Hurtgen. Love taking my cadets there...in June weather! Somebody commented near the end of the show that it is easy to be an armchair critic with perfect hindsight all these years later. Spot on. Anyway, I wish my calendar allowed me to watch these live broadcasts. I'm always a week behind. Keep it up, Woody!
I believe one of the recently identified MIAs LTC Miller is talking about could be a great uncle to my wife's nephew. We learned about this identification on August 8th, this year. Pvt. Dorsey has finally made it home after 88 years. His ID notice was posted via press release Aug 3, 2022.
Great presentation Woody. Am looking forward to seeing The rest of Hurtgen week. This is one of the least discussed periods of the ETO theatre.
Really enjoyed this video. Watched it from start till finish. I have visited the hurtgenwald several times but I have learned a lot due to this video. Thank you Paul
I have read this book, and continue to pick it up and read parts over. A wonderfully detailed account of the battle
Excellent presentation,so very informative about a less publicised part of the fight into germany and its awful cost and consequences.
Many thanks gentlemen.
I have been dry for more than 8 years - listening to this almost drove me back to drink, so many lessons learned but, obviously forgotten for the five months of this campaign. 28 ID certainly deserve more written but I wonder how many are/were still around who'd survived long enough to have much to say. This certainly happened for many WWI British and French units. Very sad but a great episode and more books to buy.
British and French units did not have these casualties since Dunkirk
Excellent topic, looking forward to more about it
Excellent account of this interesting battle. In more recent years the battle has been described as one of the worst disasters of the US Army in NW Europe. Most estimates now put the US losses at over 57,000 during the campaign. Few of the senior Officers came out of this campaign well, but as is usual with US Army politics, little was said at the time, indeed some got promotions. There is some suggestion that this and the Lorraine/Metz campaign were played down in the press for morale reasons. Edward Miller did an outstanding job, I hope to see him again.
They tended to focus on and blame Montgomery for everything instead of looking at themselves.
@@lyndoncmp5751 I always thought that, especially as Churchill ordered that there was to be no criticism of the Americans. Yet Americans were free to bad mouth the British as much as they liked.
bill ballbuster,
Absolutely. Its amazing when you think of it. Montgomery went and helped them out in the Ardennes, yet the amount of hysteria that occurred from American commanders over a few cherry picked and skewed words from Montgomery was crazy. These same commanders didn't seem to be openly concerned about failed campaigns that cost tens of thousands of casualties. Where was the criticism there?
@@lyndoncmp5751 The problems in NW Europe started when Bradley served under Monty in Normandy. Monty complained about the high casualty rate for US forces, for little or no gains. Bradley was offended and Eisenhower came to his defense. After that Bradley continued with his high casualties, but the blame was put on Monty. It was because Monty's troops were "not fighting hard enough". In reality Bradley and his staff couldn't plan a battle worth shit and his men were slaughtered as a result.
bill ballbuster
A lot of truth there in what you wrote. The COMBINED casualties for Market Garden, the follow on operations in the Netherlands (Operation Aintree etc) AND the Scheldt clearing campaign/opening Antwerp came to only a fraction of the Hurtgen Forest casualties..... and Montgomerys Scheldt campaign was the only allied campaign of autumn 1944 to achieve and suceeded in its objectives.
Hurtgen didn't, Lorraine didn't, Alsace didn't Vosges didn't.
As I said, they complained about Montgomery, but they certainly needed his help in the Ardennes.
watched this show live, but had to watch it again as it was so full of information which was new to me. Mr. Miller is quite knowledgeable about the subject and explains it thoroughly and clearly. While this campaign has come up in my studies before, it was always as an aside to something else (usually BoB) and I am glad to have a deep dive into the Hurgen Forest. and this is a cracking good show to open up this series here on WW2tv. Bravo.
Great presentation and discussion. Been there myself a few years ago and - being former Army myself - the terrain in the Kall Trail area absolutely shocked me. Can’t imagine a tougher fight than what those guys went through. Amazing bravery. New generations need to see WWII battlefields like the Huertgen so they can better understand why history is so important to remember.
Only respect Michael and best regards from The Netherlands. Thanks to your grandpa and other soldiers we can live in freedom.
Wonderful!
The Battle was considered a defeat because the odds were evened in the Hurtgen and only brief, vague references were made to it until the 1980s. For instance, an American Heritage book about WW2 was one I had as a kid and poured through at least once a month. The only mention in that book was when it noted that the Battle of the Bulge started when the Germans attacked the Americans in an area of the Ardenne where US troops were sent to rest and recuperate after they had spent time in the Hurtgen. When I got older I became curious about the Hurtgen because it was NOT mentioned in all of the other books about the war that I had read. And nothing came up in my searches in book stores (days before the internet) until I accidentally ran across a paperback when I was in my late 30s. One thing stood out when I read about how the battle affected General Gavin who witnessed the arrogance of the American high command at Thanksgiving, '44. They wanted to demoralize the Germans by showing them that we had such plenty of everything that we could deliver hot Thanksgiving meals to our troops on the front lines. So in poor rationalization, the food was delivered and troops came out of their positions to line up for the food in plain sight of the Germans. The Germans responded by shelling the troops, killing them in the hundreds. Gavin said that after the war when his family had a large family gathering for Thanksgiving, he recalled the vision of so many Americans getting killed at their Thanksgiving meal, that he got up from the table, went outside and vomiting. After that, he said he would never eat another Thanksgiving meal again.
I also remember reading in the 90's that the Hurtgen was so heavily mined that even 50 years later local people did not go into the forest for fear of stepping on the mines.
Kept secret to protect the Reputations of Ike, Bradley, Hodges
And people think Market Garden was a disaster? The Hurtgen forest was the equivalent of crash testing a car. At least Monty had more sense to flank the Siegfried line.
Great program with a great guest... This battle was new to me about 20 years ago (yikes) ...it is under appreciate and the books reference in this video are excellent.
A not so well known battle gets its story told. Thank you.
Uh....it's a "WELL KNOWN" battle!
I’ve spent time trying to make sense of the Hurtgen Forest only in the last 10 years. I was only in the military for a couple of years in the late 60’s and at a very low level but my observations were that military decision making is a complicated animal. Logic is not always the major contributing factor. It takes courage for leadership to change course because it is a public admission of mistaken judgement. This was an interesting presentation but the campaign remains a frustrating episode. Perhaps Norman Cota was promoted one level above his competence.
My father was in the 893rd TDB. He talked about the mines and Tree bursts . And trying to get to Kommerschite and Schmidt.
Bought his book years ago and that, along with the relevant copy of “after the battle” was my field guide when I visited the area in Germany. I do have a funny story about the visit which involved my Land Cruiser and the trails…but it’s better over a pint 😂
I read Mr. Miller's book when it came out and it is one of the defining books on that campaign. I have worked in cold rain even with the proper gear it is miserable and I can't imagine spending months dealing with wet and cold with little supply, while trying to attain objectives that cost so much on both sides. I am glad you had him on your channel. And now he has piqued my interest about Collins as there is not enough known on why he made some of the decisions he made.
Awesome channel! Thank you for your efforts!
Howdy folks. Col Miller is a great guest and the man who wrote one of the best combat books of WW2. A great story of a too-often neglected part of the Army’s war in Europe. Thank colonel thanks woodie
Excellent presentation!!
Excellent overview.......
I often hike there. Last week I met a guy, who came right from New York to visit the area. We stood on the river Kall bridge and talked about our feelings and thoughts on this historical place nearly 80 years later. Very moving.
Thank you Paul, Colonel Miller. Hindsight is 20/20 it's easy to say Hurtgen, Pelelui should have been bypassed however that's maybe intellectually lazy. Interesting that Patton was banging away at Metz and the torpid Italian campaign was going on in similar killing fields. I think the command structure for the U.S. was starting to fray from continuous battle at this point in the conflict. It had be disconcerting realizing (that) the Japanese and German armies by no means were going to cave, capitulate and scream uncle.
How did I miss this live? Damn laundry day…
Hard to believe this series has accumulated less than 1,000 likes per video in a year. Now that's a damn shame.
Excellent presentation and discussion.
When talking about the U.S. Army’ performance in the Huertgen and why commanders continued to throw units into what we might call a “meat grinder,” I would offer a countering question (even if to play a bit of “Devil’s advocate”) - what else could the Americans have done?
I don’t mean to defend every tactical decision during the campaign, but I think many people who critique the corps and division commanders’ decisions to keep pushing through the forest may not fully consider the overall circumstances and options (or lack thereof). As many historians point out, the terrain negated the U.S. Army’s air power and artillery assets, and limited armor mobility. Therefore, any Allied effort to capture the Huertgen region would require infantry advances in terrible terrain against German troops defending their homeland.
American commanders could not prudently bypass or ignore the forest, and even surrounding it would only be a temporary solution, delaying the inevitable attritional battle by weeks or months.
Finally, think of comparable World War II campaigns, where the U.S. Army had to defeat an enemy defending homeland in rough terrain with prepared defenses, such as Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Those campaigns also cost tens of thousands of casualties. So, why would we expect fighting in the Huertgen to be much different in other command scenarios?
Anyway, thank you Paul for dedicating several shows to this fascinating campaign!
I Googled Cota and evidently he didn't recon the forest. Thing is, why should he have? What's in there? A bunch of Germans in the woods. He already knew that.
Excellent presentation. Many thanks
After reading about the horror and misery in McDonald's book, I was not in a hurry to learn more. There may have been a simple desire to forget that caused the lack of coverage since.
Great show by Edward Miller (misses the Hurtgen week so catching up). A campaign rather than a battle is what this should be called.
STOKED!! Doesn’t even start to describe how enthused I am to have found something on Huertgen Forest. Gentlemen I pray this discussion lives up to the battle. It is THE darkest, most grim conflict in the entire ETO
I hope you enjoy it and the other 5 shows that made up the week
Thank you for this. I visited my uncle's grave in Belgium last year, and found out he was in 28th ID, 112th regiment, 3rd Battalion, K company.
Great episode. Germans knew how to exploit great terrain and the forest with elevated areas and some roads for supply combined with an exhausted US army allowed the German army to keep the initiative for months. This episode outlines many of the details to this unsung battle making one wonder if it could have been handled differently.
Very interesting discussion this. So glad to listen to a talk on the Hurtgen. Would love to hear more. I've long been interested in this campaign. It baffles me greatly why Montgomery gets so much criticism for Market Garden, yet Hodges and Bradley (and even Eisenhower) never seem to get that level of criticism for the Hurtgen. This was a far bigger and more costly far reaching mistake/failure than Market Garden.
I believe the first attacks into the Hurtgen took place on 19th September just 2 days after Market Garden started.
It is easier to blame Montgomery actually was NOT the Commander of Market Garden The ORBAT of Market Garden has Ike, Bedel-Smith, Brereton and Browning with Montgomery below the Air Force Commander. Monty has been an easy target since the end of WW2
@@jacktattisBut he's credited with the plan?
@@nomadmarauder-dw9re His plan and Breretons plan was completely different .
Interesting comments towards the end about the terrible grind the last months of 1944 were for the Allies. As Ed talked about the misery of the Hurtgen, I kept thinking about the Canadians at the Scheldt. This gives new perspective on those months - everyone was suffering.
Knew nothing about this. Great show!
The campaign in general or the specific points Edward made?
@@WW2TV For me both.
Robert Sterling Rush's _Hell in Hürtgen Forest_ is a very good operational history of the U.S. 22d Infantry Regt. in its fight in the Hürtgenwald, which was well representative of the U.S. Army's campaign as a whole in the Hürtgenwald.
I read MacDonald decades ago and was awed at his honesty and level of research. I remember him quoting the daily positive reports as a counterpoint to the grim realities. Now, in this presentation, it seems they were predicated on the regimental dailies. Is there any clarifications as to where this misinformation generated? He also makes some excellent arguments as to how all this happened and I believe quotes Mathew Taylor as visiting the site and told not to question what happened. We are as a civilization far more fragile than we like to perceive, reality is crucial always but especially now. Thank you and your presenters for the history, honesty and methodology you bring. I would be interested in a program on WW2 combat dress and 😊it’s functionality
"When Trumpets Fade". Movie. Must see for anyone interested in this battle.
Yep, it's not a bad film, I always felt the location didn't quite look right, but the overall feel was good
It is a true shame you were never able to speak with my Dad. He was attached to Greene's Hornets from 229th FA. His award citation is on display in the Vossenack. Museum. When he was assigned to 3AD in the mid-50's, he took the family to the Huertgenwald...my first "staff ride" as a 7 year old. I knew about Hill 400 from that time and about what happened to 3-112 Inf at Schmidt. I wrote papers in college and for CGSC about what happened to the 28th ID and to 112 RCT. My Dad in spirit, with dead friends and comrades (he joined the PANG in 1940, federalized in Feb '41), never really left the Huetgenwald.
brilliant vid
Another great show from WW2TV!
Didn’t Macdonald or GeneralTaylor who I believe is quoted in MacDonalds book wonder whether an assault directly to Schmidt from the south would have solved the whole thing far more efficiently? Thank you and your guest as ever
For my father and his fellow soldiers of the 2nd Ranger battalion the Hurtgen forest campaign was nearly the end of their existence. It culminated in their assault of hill 400 in the town of Schmidt(see below). I wish my Dad had lived long enough for me to ask him as an adult about his experience there. I know it was the worst combat that the 2nd Rangers ever faced. I don’t know what his role in that assault was. I only know that he was there. I should have asked Len Lomell when I had a chance. I should add that I really enjoy your historical works. I think I may be confused about the location of hill 400. I guess it was on the outskirts of Bergstein, not Schmidt
This is the thing I don't get. They are slugging it out in this forest for months. Just south at the same time there is this major build-up for the battle of the bulge going on. Some how they don't detect hundreds of thousands of troops and equipment between those two lines? There are no alarms being setoff that either line might be in jeopardy? Even without detecting the build-up, no one at HQ is saying, "hey, don't you think our flank is a bit exposed, and we should stick some troops in there"? Yes, I have read all the standard excuses. None of them seem to explain that. Because either, it was an example of the most monumental military incompetence on the part of the allied leadership, or a brillent trap to lure the German military out of their defensive positions to be destroyed. The germans always attacked, when forced in to a defensive position (even if they should not). They did it all through the war, on every front. The allies should have known that by this point in the war. It was standard German doctrine. Did they really just think the Germans would just dig in and wait for the allies to come to them?
They didn't even question themselves afterwards either. Instead they preferred to blame Montgomery for a few words he said in January.
and they had some intel from Bletchely Park and other intel sources, but had victory fever and ignored the signs. Def a leadership failure, yet even leaders are human and can be blinded by human fragility (ie pride and foolishness).
I have read that German Generals could not fathom why the Americans chose to fight where they could make no use if their vast superiority in mobility, armor, and air power. Why did they not just go around?
Pictures at 27:10 give an incredible view of the terrain experienced.
They certainly do Gary
Curious about the dialogue about how US troops were poorly prepared and equipped for weather compared to other allied forces. What did the allied forces do differently?
Although there was lots of cooperation between the Allies when it came to tanks and aircraft, when it came to uniforms and basic equipment each Nation had entirely different ideas and solutions.
great talk guys, i don't think this campaign was covered up; it just wasn't glorious.
Is their any way to find casualty lists for the 3rd armor infantry on October 6, 1944 ? my uncle Bill was KIA that day. thanks.
A. as next of kin you can apply for his IDPF and B. His death would be in the Morning Reports, which may be online
Somehow I missed the live timeframe. Stupid me.
was the 3rd armor their in October ?
Yes
I believe this campaign may have been avoided if Patton had been given the fuel he needed to continue his campaign while the Germans were in disarray after the collapse of the falaise pocket...
Timestamps for me on 78th division 40:55
I did not come here to be told about ur book .
But, the book is the basis for Ed's presentation?
Dont wanna hear somebody blathering...wanted to watch a documentary
You got to hear one of the foremost experts on the battle, but hey, you can't please everyone
@@WW2TV- I don’t know why you’d even bother to reply to that ridiculous comment; one of the most ignorant comments I’ve ever heard.
Thank goodness you’ve got the patience of an oyster. This was an excellent video regarding one of Eisenhower’s larger blunders in his broad front strategy fighting the Germans. Keep’m coming Paul, we appreciate all your effort.
With Allied infantry divisions already at critical low manpower levels, this attack was ill conceived and, like Market Garden, unnecessary. A Predictable outcome for little gain.
Boring....
So, the author of one of the most highly regarded books on the Hurtgen Forest campaign is boring - gotcha
I've heard the book "Follow me and die is a good read".
excellent Paul.
Major General Cota and the Battle of the Huertgen Forest: A Failure of Battle Command? ∗
Mr. Thomas G. Bradbeer armyuniversity.edu/cgsc/cgss/files/DCL_MGCota.pdf