Asgore’s FATAL Mistake (Deltarune + Undertale Theory)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 มิ.ย. 2024
- From Undertale to Deltarune, Asgore has been a source of dark narrative. Could it be that his divorce with Toriel or removal from the police force could be connected in yet another dark way? Join me to find out!
Deltarune: the Genocide Theory • Deltarune: the Genocid...
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What do you guys hope to see in Deltarune chapter 3?... whenever it may release?
Good Ol undertale music
The main antagonist needs to have the name “Mike Rook” so I can confirm my personal theory that all the antagonists are chess-based.
(Mike Rook = Crook, like what Spamton called Mike)
Your theory is ok BUT YOU MISSED 1 KEY DETAIL KRIS DID NOT TELL NOELLE TO USE SNOWGRAVE YOU THE PLAYER DID AND IT IS PROVEN AGAINST SPAMTON NEO IN THE SNOWGRAVE ROUTE. HERE IS FINAL PART OF THE BATTLE.
kris called for help... nobody came
Kris Called For Help... Nobody Came
KRIS CALLED FOR HELP... NOBODY CAME
KrIs CaLlEd FoR hElP... nObOdY cAmE
You whispered Noelle's name...
I want to see a fight with a Susie Godzilla. Excluding the tail. Obviously. (She doesn’t have a tail, okay!)
Some sort of massive divide based on wherever the player pushed Noelle into the Snowgrave route. As the death of a somewhat important character towards the end of that route, very likely will have major effects on what happens after chapter 2. And let's not forget that in the end of chapter 2, it's all but confirmed Kris created a Dark Fountain within their own home's living room while both Toriel and Susie were asleep. Good job on this theory btw, even if it was kinda all over the place, which is not your fault, as we don't currently have much to work with. Something though that aids your previous Deltarune theory, is that Kris looks like what would happen if one were to fuse both Frisk and Chara's looks and traits. Frisk with their yellow face, and Chara with their green shirt (which shouldn't count, as Undertale's Asriel also wore the same striped shirt), hair style, hair shape, hair color, and no outline on their hair, as well as Chara's thing for knives (which somehow Toriel is perfectly okay with Kris, a child, always having a knife in their possession), and since Frisk was an extension of us, the player, in Undertale, it makes sense that the soul we use for controlling Kris, being our soul, exists within themself, and that Kris shares looks and traits from both Frisk and Chara. I feel somehow the sharing of looks of those two from Undertale, and Kris needing our soul to survive, as they stumble-walk, like a zombie, whenever the soul we use for controlling Kris, is removed, are connected in some way
Noelle casting snowgrave in the light world is a bit of a stretch but it is interesting how the whole "I don't know that spell" thing sounds like she's repressing memories instead of just being confused.
Well Toriel in DR cooks with an oven but in UT she uses magic. So i think that means monsters in the light world have magic but can’t use magic or not developed as much
@@mysticalaces8623 Catti did say that she taught Noelle protection spells, meaning monsters can use magic in the light world.
As for Toriel using an oven, remember monsters in UT were trapped underground and relied on magic for a lot of stuff. Since monsters are on the surface in DR they have more technology.
If magic does exist in the light world but they just don’t use it as much as in undertale, maybe it’s because of a lack of TP. I mean, what are they gonna do to get it? Dodge each other’s attacks? I feel like grazing would return less tp than would be used for the attacks, and they probably don’t want to put themselves into dangerous situations when they could just use technology instead.
@@mysticalaces8623 Kris has a complex of not being a monster. Toriel could cook traditionally instead of using magic to not further those complexes.
@@mysticalaces8623 well the monsters in undertale probably developed much less because they were trapped in the underground and only have one scientist but the ones in deltarune lives in the surfuce so why would you use fire magic when you have an oven
It's kind of sad how something ALWAYS happens to Asgore that he's forced to do something wrong for a right cause, and that ruins his relationship with his family
Poor guy can't catch a break, even in a different universe.
Such is the sacrifice of a Sigma Goat.
I feel so bad for Asgore, in both universes, also if we want to get AU’s, involved even though they aren’t cannon, but Glitchtale, Asgore, had to deal with Jessica’s, fury over him being the one that killed her daughter the dark blue soul, and in Underverse X Asgore, literally had to be a dog to X Gaster, and do his bidding, and then is just murdered by his children X Frisk, and Chara, fused as Cross, but at least my sweet literal prince Asriel, is safe, and sound in Deltarune, i swear to the gods if Asriel, was murdered again, but just actually died no becoming Flowey, or if he had a bad childhood, or had to deal with something trauma again well of course the Dec, accident, but nothing as bad as in Undertale, like seeing Asgore, getting really sick from the buttercups, or oh yeah Chara, fucking laying dying in bed.
@@DeciAster Not a lot of Asriel’s, can either Deltarune, is the best he’s had it,
@@ltb1345 Asgore, was a alpha male, before he became a loner sigma, but honestly he still has glimpses of alpha male behavior with the flowers, and trying to get back together with Toriel, but honestly Toriel, seems way more petty, and rude about her reasons for breaking up with him, really over something he couldn’t help jeez, like with his actions in Undertale, i really get her, but Asriel’s, the alpha of the family now he’s going to collage to get his degree, he’s coming back soon, and remembering Hyperdeath, probably a stud with a big dick hyper alpha Asriel~.
I personally don't think December Holiday is dead. I think she is trapped in the bunker. But I also *do* think that December's disappearance is why Asgore got fired.
that makes sense but it doesn't explain why toriel is mad she seems more mad than just oh you saved a man instead of child, I think there's a darker side here. I think there's a chance kris had to escape the snowgrave spell by himself after asgore had given up the search and that's why toriel is mad and kris wont read the article. but this is just my theory. toriel acts like he is trash and i think thats the only way she would see him so poorly.
Ok, but even for undertale and deltarune that would be REALLY dark.
What if she's trapped in the game's files, like Gaster?
@@tysondennis1016December = Gaster game theory when??
@@tysondennis1016 I mean, there's a voice "Reaching through the void" on the files.
It's 99% December.
This may just be me reading into it, but when Noelle says
"The snow was, so thick I could not see anything."
Noelle is not talking about Snowgrave. Noelle is reliving the tragedy that took the life of her sister. I mean the layers of suck have to be deeper than the player just bullying Noelle into killing Berdly in the Snowgrave route.
ah yes “bullying”
I mean it is ‘bullying’ however it’s a huge psychological, emotional push. It’s kinda like manipulating someone to believe what your doing isn’t bad but trying to help them. Causing them to have this delusional idea to listen you, and if Noelle is already broken. Well it makes you have an easier job. That being manipulating said Person.
Then why berdly is not dusted in normal world
@@NATM-hq1bm cause either he died in the simulation and now his dead consciousness is in the destroyed world or he in the state “fallen down” where monsters don’t dust but they’re dead.
@@NATM-hq1bm as far as I can tell, monsters don't turn to dust immediately when they die unless they're killed. Alphys needed monsters who had "fallen down" for her experiments with determination after all. So either having "fallen down" is just a state that occurs before death or if it is the state of a monster's body before turning to dust, but it doesn't really make a difference tbh
Actually, this makes a lot of sense.
Why is Asgore off The Force? And why does Toriel hate Asgore?
This would answer a lot.
Yes
Why is Rudy still buddy buddy with Ashore and talk friendly about him if that's the case?
@@ThePokkiKing Watch the theory. He explained it himself.
I think toriel also hates him because she is homophobic
@ploopy man th-cam.com/video/R-RHqB9rqy0/w-d-xo.html
Asgore is doin the wrong things for the right reasons
Not the wrong thing. Unlike what the horrible old crone might say, taking tgose souls from thr surface would mean 7 people(not children, one of them had a gun and her "I cannott save even a single child" can be interpreted as every human eho falls here, even this one child I cannot save, as opposed to " every single human who fell here was a child and I cannot save them") still die and a war could be started,as stated by Asriel himself after he tried that plsn with Chara.
And it is even worse in Deltarune, as he was was actually the one bravely risking his life out there to save Dess. Going with this fella's theory, it seems by seeing what Snowgrave did to Rudy as they went further inside the storm, he presumed Dess would be already dead and as such would not risk his men for such a lost cause.
If he is such a wimp, Toriel" child incandescent" Dreemurr perhaps should have done something about it then. It seems her hypocrisy from Undertale endured too.
@@Nai-qk4vp 0-0
@@Nai-qk4vp Damn.
@@Nai-qk4vp Asgore was aiming to restart the war after getting to the surface in Undertale though.
@@ltb1345 That's what he said to his people when he was in rage after the assassination of his two children by humans.
But according to Sans in his phone call once you did a neutral run in which Undyne end up in charge after you killed anyone that would have taken control instead of her, Asgore was not very good at it (implying that he wasn't determined to do it, so he would probably not mention it often) while Undyne seems to insist a lot more about it.
Asgore, both in Undertale and in Deltarune, is someone who care about his people/family's life. Declaring war simply doesn't suit him. Before Flowey kill him in a neutral/pacifist run, if you spare him, he even want to start a new family with you as the child and probably Toriel as the mother, meaning that if the monsters were ever returning to the surface, he could use you as an ambassador, just like he did in the True Pacifist Run.
I believe it wasn't really Asgore's fault
I think Dess went missing.Asgore tried to search for her,but he gave up,realizing she was really gone.Toriel and Noelle's mother got mad,but Rudie was understanding and still thinks highly of him.
I don't think that would be enough to cause Toriel to hate him that much.
@@cormacb2326 she doesn't hate him that much. She is pissed when he sent her the bouquet, because you don't want your ex husband sending you flowers(because he clearly wants to come back to her), she's polite to him at the store, unlike in undertale when she would get angry just for asgore looking at her.
@@orleanswarrior1834 Although in Undertale, it was more recent. In Deltarune, it had long passed, a minor annoyance at most.
@@orleanswarrior1834 yeah i know! I dont know why the fandom has made the sterotype "TORIEL BAD HATES ASGORE 😡😡" seems so childish to me. Two people can be good and just break up. There doesn't have to be a specific reason. And it makes sense Toriel doesn't want advances from him if she isn't interested in reinitiating a relationship with him, especially if they have recently broken up.
@@NetMoverSitan fair point
Some things: The dogs said they wanted to rob the big house over the holidays (probably Noelles house, as it's gated off), but BEFORE they could do it they were attacked by "something merciless" that came from the shadows,and they ran straight into Undyne.
Who probably wasn't just randomly waiting for them.
The kids (Noelle, Kris, Dess, Asriel) often hang out around the forest.
So what I think happened (and it's mostly speculation) :
One day, around winter holidays, the kids were out late in the forrest.
Suddenly a large snowstorm came up, dangerous enough that the police organized a search.
It's dark. There's a snowstorm. Something "merciless" is roaming around the forest. And somewhere in there, a bunch of lost children.
Whatever happened, only 3 were found.
Maybe that "merciless" being took Dess (either alive or not)
Or Dess somehow was that merciless being.
All I'm sure is that something happened and Asgore knew that he failed and that Dess won't be found.
Toriel might not know the full story of what Asgore has seen.
Rudy doesn't hold any grudge towards Asgore and is still a good friend, so he's likely certain that Asgore did everything he could.
The mayor likely holds big grudges towards Asgore too.
To the public it seems the only thing known is that Dess wasn't found, and it caused Asgore to lose his position. The newspaper reads as if Asgore is still respected at large by the town.
As for whether Dess is dead or not, to cite a book found in the librarby in Undertale: "One time this kid at my school went missing for a week and everyone thought he was dead...
But then he came back!!! Turns out he was visiting [...]"
So, it's impossible to be certain whether someone's dead when not even the dust can be found.
Maybe the merciless being could also be the knight?
If the dogs may have only been arrested very recently (within a couple days), the being they saw may have been Kris, dashing through the darkness (after ripping their soul out and locking it in the birdcage), perhaps to set up a Dark Fountain.
Update: I read their dialogue, and they said that the event I mentioned happened in the snow. So, it had to have been at least nearly a year since then, possibly several years, because it's currently autumn. So the event most likely happened in the winter time. (Supposing seasons in this world work similar to Earth's. Considering they even have their own version of Christmas and the same month names as we do, it's fairly safe to assume this is the case.)
.....Unless a certain kind of snow magic was used to create snow at a time it usually doesn't happen.... but there was no mention of the snow being unusual.
Honestly, I thought it was a Batman reference 😄 Interestingly, Asgore has superhero comic books lying around in his room. Maybe he is secretly reliving his crime fighting days.
I personally don't think Dess is dead, the way Noelle talks about her seems as if she's still around and missing. Plus there's unused dialogue in the game of a person yelling out in the darkness for someone to find them. My theory is that this is Dess yelling out from the dark
i feel like dess likely suffered a similar situation to gaster. as opposed to gaster being scattered across time and space with parts of him being in fun events or unused areas, dess is currently trapped in the "unused" game files
ofc i think we'll eventually get more info and/or see her
!! thats what i thought, or that she was frozen like berdly was in the snowgrave route
@@Clawnyan Or it could be that Dess is in the Bunker
@@Clawnyan that isn't possible, Gaster was "erased from the existence" and nobody remembers nothing about him, but we can clearly see that some people still talks about Dess
@@aegbgo8121 thats why i said "similar" situation
there's a problem with this theory though-
noelles room in queen mansion has calenders where every day is chirsmas- we know queen makes these rooms from misinterpreted search results. it seems like this calendar is queen misinterpreting noelle searching 'December holiday'. queen later mentions in her speech that noelles searches are 'strange and sad' and this seems to be her main motivator for trying to boost noelles confidence. noelle looking up her sisters name online, along with the town cemetery having no grave for dess, seems to imply that dess is not dead but missing. i would guess after asgore failed to find dess, the mayor blamed him for the searches failure and fired him, and toriel divorced asgore due to social pressure (the mayor is her neighbor after all). now the mayor is trying to evict asgore and kick him out of town.
ominously, noelles room in the mansion also has drawers with searches that couldn't have been made into things. one of these being 'deer car hit'
i didn't notice the latter part 0_0
I've searched for the "deer car hit" part. Did not find it. Can you please show a source ?
@@IamtheMysticat 99% they made that up
I dont think toriel divorced him due to pressure since she straight up does not like him, otherwise your theory checks out
Really good, I personally want to see Dess in later chapters, maybe she comes disguised at the festival, or even stuck in Dark World.
I think the song lost girl is about dess not noelle. Like dess is actually missing or passed away (you could use the term lost girl in either meaning) and the asgore theory of him getting kicked off the police force due to him being Involved somehow with her disappearance, whether he intentionally or unintentionally caused her to not be found or not be saved from death, is super interesting to me. Great video!
Yeah, it seems Noelle's theme is Girl around town as Lost girl plays even when she isn't there.
Toby said Lost Girl isn't actually Noelle's theme when he teased the song a while back.
What if Asgore encouraged the kids to play pretend, which inadvertently leads them to the dark world and through that- it leads to Dess going missing. All the blame is on Asgore and Toriel would have reason to blame him as you could say that with her motherly nature, she probably didn’t think it was safe for the kids to so- thinking it was reckless.
While occult is a thing in Deltarune (like it is a thing some practice in our world), I don't think that's enough evidence to claim Noelle could have casted snowgrave in the light world. But I like the theory.
Noelle's love for the cold might just be a reindeer monster thing, since the mayor aparently always keeps her office's AC at full blast. However, Noelle DOES have this tendency to black out during traumatic experiences, so she would be the only one unaware of what happened to Dess.
I’m pretty sure undertale rules still apply here kris still has determination and power of saving and monsters probably can still use magic they just don’t need to on a peaciful town and katty said she tought noelle spells as it was said in the video
@@cin2110 But Kris can't save in the light world. The only instances of saving in the Light World are between loading chapters.
@@cin2110 there are different rules in Deltarune… queen confirmed that all lighters have determination in them.
@@n3harb Also, the dark world exists
@@pablopereyra7126 there is no proof that there aren’t dark worlds in undertale’s world
I thought Asgore hit Dess with his car, it would tie in with Noelle being scared to cross the street in the dark world and also explain Asgore's abandoned car, and would be less of a stretch than Noelle magic-ing up a snowstorm.
Especially since Berdly explains the spelling bee, showing that when they were kids, Noelle lost bc the last word was "December", and the idea of a classmate teaching Noelle occult protection spells when the final word for their spelling bee was "December" seems a bit off
This one is simple and makes sense
I like asgore. He likes plants. Enough said.
Hmmm, Kris having seen snowgrave before makes sense actually.
I question why the SOUL knows about snowgrave, since that route is where Kris is less in control
the soul is an epic gamer who plays dragon blazers 2
The SOUL aka the player can read into Noelle's thoughts. Of course it can read and know things like her Snowgrave spell
@@sonario6489 the soul is literally you did you know about snowgrave spell before finding the option?
@@rayaanishfaqgaming to be more specific, we control the SOUL. Ralsei still refers to it as the ‘culmination of your being’ talking to Kris in chapter 1 exactly how it is described in Undertale so it’s entirely possible it knows things Kris knows like Snowgrave.
Your theory made me think they perhaps Rudy was directly or indirectly responsible for an accident that caused Dess’s death, but knowing that the truth would destroy their family even more than just Dess dying, Asgore took the fall for his best friend. Rudy could have even been unaware of the situation and still could be, so while the mayor and toriel treat asgore poorly, Rudy is none the wiser, not quite sure what got him into the hospital originally or that he’s the real reason Dess is gone.
That sounds pretty interesting..
Another possibility is that Asgore took the blame for Dess' Death to protect Noelle
yes it is possible
I just hope Dess is missing, that we can find her in future chapters. Asgore being blamed for her death or disappearance is sad, he's such a good guy.
You just made lore on someone's divorce, well played
I can't imagine Dess is dead. I think she would have a grave in the graveyard in that case. She could have run away, either because she butted heads with her mother or alternatively, her mother became overbearing after Dess disappeared. But I agree Asgore is very likely involved.
Maybe they didn't want a grave without a body?
@@KittyKatty999 …That's all of the monster graves, though.
To be clear, what MetaKaios is referring to is the fact that monsters who die turn to dust. So their society is used to erect gravestones without a body to bury.
She's definitely missing but I don't think she ran away. From what we heard of Dess it doesn't seem like she'd skip town and leave her sister like that. I think there was a blizzard (not magic based imo) and durring this really bad storm she got seperated from Noelle Asriel and Kris when they were hanging out. She wandered far enough durring the storm that they didn't find her body durring the search or after.
@@DeerBonesBaby Has there been mention of a storm, though? I can't recall.
Another possibility is that her disappearance is somehow tied to the bunker. We know they, that is Noelle, Kris, Ariel and Dess, went there once to investigate. Perhaps she got lost in an in-between space. Perhaps it is her who's calling out to us from that dark place ("Can anyone hear me?" "It's dark, so dark.").
That WOULD explain December's absence, Noelle's reluctance to use the spell and why ANY mention of December renders Noelle silent (and why her dad is bedridden and receives flowers from Asgore.)
4:30 Kris stops reading because they dont want the player to know what hapoened, they still have some amount of control with the SOUL inside them, such as emotion (as we see after the NEO fight.)
That could also be why they closed their eyes when looking at Asriel's room at Queen's palace.
How would the player not knowing what happened help kris? If kris dosent tell the player then the player will just keep pressing on about it.
@@someonehungarian9002 Kris knows we can’t ask a question like that unless somehow one of Kris’s friends talk to Kris about Dess going missing and Kris being a puppet
@@zarif1217 yes we cant ask a question like that but we can still examine everything to hope that kris gives us more clue about that.
@@someonehungarian9002 if you were controlled by someone else,i doubt you’d want them to know anything about you
alternatively, since magic is implied not to exist in the same way as undertale (see: stove in deltarune vs undertale), could be that they just were playing in the forest and a sudden blizzard came
noelle made it home but december was still lost, or december shielded noelle from the cold as best she could until they were found with dess having sacrificed herself to protect her little sister
asgore may have wanted to wait until the blizzard calmed down to send a search party, which would explain why they think he's a coward and blame him for her death
or he only sent a search party after rudy went by himself to try and find her
Magic does not exist in the light world, Noelle mentions in the hospital on how she wished magic was real so that she could heal her dad. Although the scenario of Dess getting lost in a snowstorm with Noelle and Asgore calling of the rescue because it almost killed Rudy is very plausible. We also know the date of the incident which was December 25th since the calendar on her room has that day marked.
Also, Kris wasn’t the one exploiting Noelle in the snowgrave route, it was us the player.
Here’s my theory, building off what (may have) happened in the graveyard:
We know that when Noelle was scared, Dess would warm her up with Asriel’s jacket. This means she would have no way to calm down otherwise. My theory is that Asriel wasn’t there on the night, nor was Kris. (It would explain why they both escaped, and why Kris seems to have no recollection of it.)
So if Asriel wasn’t there, Dess would not have been able to calm Noelle before she used Snowgrave. I don’t know, it’s just my theory
Oh I thought this was going to the idea that Asgore cheated on Toriel with Ruddy. I don't know why.
Pft- Same dude
okay but that would've been interesting, and I lowkey see that being a ship ngl-
@@auburned-phoenix Yeah, no.
Rudy would treat him way better than Toriel
@@Nai-qk4vp each to their own oppinions, keep in mind ships don’t have to be canon
Sans is actually still the same guy, he transcends time and space
I’m suspecting that he might be a powerful darkener that went to light world somehow
@@cin2110 he is yust part of gaster i mean he has acces to gaster blasters
I mean, he is basically the same character as Undertale Sans. Literally. NOT EVEN A SINGLE CHANGE.
Laid back / lazy, wants to find a good company for his brother, good friends with Toriel, trolls you instantly upon meeting him and just showed up one day. The only old trait of his we didn't see yet was his more serious "i am wiping your face out of this world" that shows on the Genocide Route, but I think that Post-Snowgrave, chapter 3 Sans is going to be more aggressive again like on the Genocide route.
@@conic2721 maybe probably because birdly died a monster so unlike the darkers he would notice something but it was noelle that killed him so maybe not
@@conic2721 deltarune Sans would have NEVER went through the resets and that's what gets me interested. Is he stronger? Or is he weaker.
Maybe even happier
Tho everything points that monsters dont use magic. Toriel stove
Noelle says it would be cool if there was magic in real life
Noelle using snowgrave when she is stressed actually makes sense because the energy (TP) needed to use snowgrave is called tension points
yep make sens
I'd like to add that to not die in snow grave asgore would have to be warm, which he could use some low fire magic or something for so that checks out. It also ties in Rudy telling Noelle to use Fireshock against the ice dude in the video game. In that scene thing Noelle thinks that the ice attack would be plenty effective, with her (accidentally) using an ice move against and ice dude irl (does dess count as an ice dude???) and Rudy thinking that fire would be more effective
If fire magic exists, why isn't Toriel using it? In Deltarune, when you interact with her stove, it says,"There's some cinnamony batter caked on the stovetop", while in Undertale, it says,"The stovetop is very clean. Toriel must use fire magic instead."
@@tedtolliver572 They live in the surface so they don't need to use magic for everything because they have technology
@@bobelpatron4280 wouldnt using fire magic be faster?
@@miizukiakiiyama in deltarune magic is probably forgotten
First have you seen asgore, he dosent need fire magic with all that fur. Second that scene only happens in the snowgrave route with its meaning being that noelle is starting to became a sociopath who loves to freeze things and thinks the best way is to freeze your problems away.
The only thing that makes me doubt this theory is there is no grave for dess, and youd figure the mayors daughter would have a grave. Maybe a specil burial down at the bunker?
Kris doesn't order Noelle to use snowgrave. He can get knocked out and she still hears you, cause YOU order her to use it.
My theory is really closed to yours, I will add that the events linked to the disappearance of Dess took place in a Dark World linked to the closed door near the graveyard (there is no magic in real life and Kris already had a SAVE in Chap1, also Kris is traumatized about the door).
Therefore Dess is probably the person trapped in Darkness with the unused dialogues in chapter 1 and 2.
Also it's interesting to point out the fact that there are a lot of things leading to the idea that Undertale took place in a Dark World (characters were maybe Darkners converted in Lightners, somehow like Suzie wants to do at the end of Chapter 2?)
Also... Why nobody talks about the fact that Gerson was obviously a Lightner using his hammer to create Dark Worlds???
I'm thinking, what if Snowgrave is some sort of repressed bloodline ability of the Holliday's, that only comes out in times of great duress. And what if instead of Noelle casting Snowgrave in the light world, it was Dess, meaning Dess went berserk, and as chief of police Asgore had to do something about it, and regardless of the way Dess went "missing", Toriel and Mayor Holliday thought that Asgore had made the wrong decision, but Rudy understood Asgore's plight. As for Noelle and Kris, they were traumatized by Dess's berserk rampage, causing Noelle to Repress some of her memories, and Kris to become depressed and withdrawn. Additionally, magic could still exist in Deltarune, but might either be forgotten or not as used as in Undertale.
I think you've made a brilliant theory, really hit the needle on the head with Noelle's immunity to cold, allowing her to survive, but there's a couple of things that need to be addressed.
We have no real conformation that possessing an affinity for something in the Dark World translates to overworld abilities, it simply just remains as nothing more than a parallel regarding that character (arguably like that of Deltarune and Undertale). It's highly unlikely that (as an example) Susie is able to cast UltimatHeal in the Light world, or even use Rude Buster. I get that what you said was merely speculation, but more conclusive proof is needed before we can at least headcanon it.
The second issue is that during the Chapter 1 dialogue, if you talk to Rudy about why he's in the hospital, he claims that the doctors "found some junk, so it's just tests for now." Pneumonia doesn't fit that description, so he can't be in the hospital because for such a reason.
As much as this makes a lot of sense, after chapter 1 if you visit the hospital and ask Rudy what he's in for, he'll tell you they "found some stuff". That would imply some sort of disease similar to cancer, and not as much pneumonia.
Oh man bring me them juicy Deltarune theories. I’d love to hear your thoughts on Spamton and the crystal bearers
As much as this theory makes sense it just makes me so sad, Noelle is such a sweet girl that doesn’t deserve all the terrible things that have or can happen to her :(((
You are right my friend, Snowgrave is too good for noelle.
I initially thought that Dess was trapped in a dark world somewhere, but this theory is making me reconsider
Toby: Shit, I gotta write this down.
I’m glad you’re making theory of Zelda and deltarune/undertale three of my favorite games
Same
Same here I love them so much
Same
More Deltarune/Undertale content! Loving it!
Yes please
Here's what I think: Noelle didn't cast anything. But Dess did die in a blizzard on December 25th.
While I can get on board with the idea that this whole incident happened recently, as Tori was shown in UT, she’s the kind of person to hold grudges. Now I understand an argument could be mad that at times she did believe in him, but Asgore kept confirming her doubts
maybe asgore wants to make amends kris' mother by constantly sending flowers as an apology and while looking for noelle, while getting lost in the storm decided that roodys life should take priority because of the severe namonia
Good video!
As you mentioned, it seems some aspects of the returning cast from Undertale exist in parallel in Deltarune. And in your theory, Toriel's self righteous hypocrisy and the refusal to take responsabilty also coherently return too.
In Undertale, despite knowing Asgore did what he did because his subjects rested their hopes in his promise and as much as he hated having to do it, he could not turn back, she abandoned her subjects when they needed her most and only family she had left left,not even attempting to convince Asgore to do something else, never in god-knows long she stayed in the Ruins did anything significant to actually stop the humans from dying, instead when they inevitably had enough of playing house with her, if her interactions with Frisk are anything to go by, just sent them on their merry way without any guidance or even a phone call, wallowing in self-pity and when she finally did return, refused to take any responsability and suggested that moronic plan of harvesting the souls in the surface and destroying the barrier, a plan her very son said in rhe epilogue would have started another war. It is very telling Dreemurr, which we all know rearranged reads "Murderer", is the surname of the of family who all have killed people in morally dubious circumstances yet Toriel tells Frisk not to call her by her surname, representing her refusal to take any blame for killing the humans by her omission.
Here it is even worse, as by your theory we can presume Asgore thought that if the storm was affecting Rudy this badly and he was under its effect for less time than Dess, then it would be reasonable to assume that she was already dead and that he would only be throwing the lives of his men and his own away for a girl who already had died. Toriel, once again refuses to communicate or listen, instead arrogantly attributing cowardice to him despite the fact it was Asgore and not her who had the balls to be out there,risking his life for Dess and took a decision not to risk those under him any further. And once again she tears her family appart because of her ego. We can see already its terrible effects in Kris,whom feels lonely and before the Dark World only had Asriel, who is away in college,and not even Noelle, as his friendship with her was strained.
Everything I said about Deltarune Toriel applies to the mayor too
I have always had an issue with the way Toriel treats Asgore, even before deltarune. She is always cruel to him, and when she could have done literally anything, like help Asgore when he needed her most, she didn't. Instead, she shut herself off from the world for however many hundreds of years she was in the ruins for.
Damn, you brutally tore straight into Toriel, and honestly it makes alot of sense.
Good theory but your only evidences are the fact that her name mixed up is murderer which can be easily broken by the fact that she probably took on asgores surname after they married which means it is very likely we dont know what her surname was before that, then the fact that she wants you to not refer to her by her surname is because of a combination of motherhood and not wanting to be associated with him.
Then your other evidence is that she locked herself away and did nothing which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do after all its it's impossible to get past everyone without someone realizing that she was the queen, and if that's not enough then remember that she literally tried to break down the entrance so no one can enter or leave.
Also what makes you think she dosent want to take responsibility?
@@someonehungarian9002 Toriel abandoned her throne, her position of power and ability to make change, just to run away and hide out in the ruins. That's like the very definition of not wanting to take responsibility. Also, 6 humans have already lost their lives and you only think to break down the entrance while the 7th is attempting to leave? Seriously she's had freaking eons to close that entrance and only decides to do it at the very last minute?
God I absolutely hated her plan of taking a human soul and going outside the ruins to kill more humans. It shows that, unlike Asgore, she never actually cared about human life. It also shows that she can't really think things through - that's exactly the same plan that Asriel and Chara had, only for the two of them to wind up dead. What hope would Asgore have that he would wind up any different with only one human soul? Waiting for all 7 is the only way to ensure the continued survival of all of monsterkind after shattering the barrier. And she's supposed to be the smart one? Da fuck?
Pretty big gaping hole there, the graveyard scene happened way back in the past and it either be unlikely for Rudolph to maintain such severe pneumonia for so long
Since ch3, 4 and 5 are all releasing at the same time we’ll have a lot more lore than now.
Dess is missing, her body was never found. Noelle keeps searching online for any news on her case, but apparently nothing comes up. I also can't see Toriel hating Asgore this much for not being able to find a lost child, that would be quite cruel on her part.
Toriel absolutely would call him a coward if she thought he called off the search too early or didn't try hard enough to find him. And it may have been a situation where Asgore advised against going off into the storm, but Rudy did anyways. Rudy probably got violently ill from doing that. Toriel could have seen Asgore staying out of it and keeping other people from joining in the search, and Rudy rushing in, and passed judgement based on that.
when catti said noelle was falling towards the darkness she immediately followed up saying “i’m talking about susie” lol. from what we know the light world is pretty grounded in reality, monsters aside because for all intents and purposes that’s just an aesthetic choice. also snowgrave is a very fast spell to cast, it doesn’t linger. berdly is frozen in a matter of seconds, if rudy and asgore went to find dess in the first after she was snowgrave’d they would’ve just found an ice crystal
Maybe snowgrave is a bit more of like, a metaphor sort of to how Dess died, maybe Dess and Noelle were in a blizzard and Noelle was the only one of the two who survived. Dess tried to protect her from the cold but ultimately froze to death to save her, leading to Asgore finding them and only being able to recover Noelle while he was maybe blamed for the death of Dess, maybe even it being that Dess maybe was never found after or even covered up, thus putting her in a "snowgrave"
11:27 But it is not Kris forcing Noelle to cast the spell, it is the player itself. At the end of the fight with Spamton NEO on the Snowgrave route, KRIS calls for all of the friends to help her... except for Noelle. When you click on Noelle, the dialogue doesn't say that Kris called Noelle, but: "You whispered Noelle's name." That obviously means YOU as the controller of Kris.
That theory at the end is an insane theory. Everything connects in the end, making it really believable.
I feel like the Snowgrave part of this theory is a bit of a stretch but everything else is spot on.
The reason I say Snowgrave is a stretch is because of the fact that she can use healing magic in the Dark World, a supposedly well-known magic that can be learned quite easily in an hour or two as shown by Susie, but is not able to use such magic in the Light World. If she had magic that powerful in the Light World, she would have easily been able to at least partially heal her dad.
And also, Kris wouldn't need to necessarily know about Snowgrave because here's the thing. It's established that *the player* is commanding these two, made clear when Kris is down during the fight to which Noelle says that they can "still hear their voice." Kris wouldn't need to know because us as the player, are the ones that are prompted the spell.
By this logic, it also wouldn't make sense why Susie boasts about ACTing on her own if Kris was the one to tell them how to act in the first place with S/R-Action (hence "Why the hell do we need Kris to ACT?!"). Susie and Ralsei follow the player's commands as well, they just don't ever question it, it seems.
My current explanation for Dess which a friend of mine suggested is that maybe there was a natural snowstorm, and Kris and Dess hid into the bunker. Kris felt a weird vibe and left, while Dess decided to stay safe inside the bunker...but when Kris came back to bring her, she was no longer there. Even then though, that's still relying on heavy speculation, so it's unclear what exactly happened to her.
I think it could also be something related with that door south of town. It almost definitely has some relation with Gaster considering if you speed up those sounds by 666%, you end up with mus_smile or whatever it’s called. Gaster was supposedly shattered across time and space, and if this is an area associated with Gaster, I think something similar could have happened with Dess. And I don’t think monsters can cast magic in the Light World because in Undertale, Toriel’s stove is clean because “she must use magic fire.” In Deltarune, it isn’t clean, so I don’t think that’s a possibility. Oh, and in Snowgrave, it is definitely the player abusing Noelle, not Kris. We know the two are separate, in the first “Kris rips out his souls and uhm???” you can control the soul in the box. Does that mean that Kris doesn’t know about Snowgrave? Idk. But I think it does lead to that. You get Snowgrave specifically with the Thorn Ring though, and you can only get that in the Dark World. Still a good theory though!
I'm betting Asriel killed Des and Asgore covered it up somehow or made it look like he did it as an accident.
I think Dess is just missing, I don’t think the idea about Noelle using SnowGrave on her out of stress makes sense based on some stuff ingame including a bit of dialogue (heavily suggesting she can’t use stuff like healing spells and stuff in the Light World and that’s why she likes the Dark World, seeming to wish she could use those spells, so maybe the occult stuff was just protection things (not offensive) and probably doesn’t even work) + Noelle talks about her as if she hopes she’s still alive since some stuff would seem weird if she’s dead and Noelle searched for her name online frequently.
I do think it’s possible Asgore was fired due to Dess’s disappearance, though; maybe he was in charge of finding her or watching over the kids at the festival or something, and the Mayor fired him due to failing his job and being grieved over her daughter missing. If it’s the festival thing, Toriel could be mad because she felt something bad could’ve happened to Kris and Asriel too, only for their dad to not be paying attention, and maybe something almost did.
I’m not sure Noelle staring into the freezer means too much either aside from her being lost in thought maybe feeling sad things trying to feel better or something; also since she’s a reindeer + her mother also keeps her office very cold according to one of the NPCs at the town hall.
I’ve seen an idea that Dess and Kris tried to enter the bunker, and Dess got lost in there, as if it’s an experiment place or sort of Dark World or something. Kris is apparently scared of it, and seemed a bit scared before entering the school closet at first, so I think this makes sense, but of course…who knows for sure.
Theory: If "Dece" (Noelle's mom/sister) is short for December, maybe that's would be the reason Noelle lost the spelling bee because the word was December. In the cutscene of the spelling bee she dropped at the floor and looked like she was crying which means something happened to "Dece" that scared Noelle.
Unrelated - any idea who "C" is, that Asgore is renting from? 🤔
Maybe noelles mom?? Maybe shes named christmas
@@shinoataya probably not since that's Rudy's nickname for Kris. maybe Carol? like Christmas carol
@@shinoataya this is actually a really good theory
I thought her name was Carol?
@@thumbsup8985 Yeah idk I haven't checked
I swear each one of you undertale/deltarune theories has blown my mind. Keep up the good work 👍
I feel like this makes no sense though...
Wouldn't asgore tell anyone else about why he called the search off? Wouldn't toriel and rudy's wife understand that they'd all die? Why wouldn't he tell that?
Also kris does nothing to noelle, that's the player, genuinenly very important distinction for the story
Hi, there's a high chance that no one will read this comment, but I'll do it anyway.
In the aftermath of the Giga Queen battle, Berdly was about to create another Dark Fountain when Ralsei yelled at him to stop, warning them about The Roaring.
In the cutscene, we can see 3 Dark Fountain's in the background, implying that only 3 Dark Fountain's are needed to create The Roaring, or at least start it.
Now let's backtrack a little:
Ralsei's kingdom has 1 Dark Fountain active at all times;
The Knight creates 1 Dark Fountain each day (as far as we know).
In the end of chapter 2, Kris created 1 Dark Fountain.
And if you recalled the cutscene about The Roaring, you can clearly see a Dark Being with many eyes around him... The same eyes as we spot in the first bit of the Dark World, Ralsei's Kingdom to be exact...
I think you’re pretty close. I like this theory, it ties a lot of things together, and is very cohesive. But, there are a few things that somewhat disprove it:
1. Noelle’s search results in her mansion room: One of the objects created from the searches is a calendar with all days marked as December 26th. That day is also when “December holiday” starts. This implies that Noelle spent some time looking up the name of her sister on the internet. And I don’t think she would do that if Dess was just dead. However, if she had mysteriously gone missing, it would be more fitting. That would also mean there’s still hope to save her later in Deltarune, which opens up some possibilities.
2. Magic in Deltarune: It’s possible, and even implied that Deltarune monsters can’t use magic in the light world. Toriel’s stove is clean in Undertale because she uses fire magic, but un Deltarune it’s caked with batter. We also haven’t actually seen anyone use magic, and Catti talking about occult stuff could just be emo teen stuff. There’s plenty of people in the real world that think magic is real and think they’re witches or magicians, who’s to say it isn’t like this in the Deltarune world?
3. The voice in the code and the credits: Inside the game files, it’s possible to find lines of text, which appear to be a person trapped in a mysterious place, all alone and calling for help. They sound confused, desperate and hopeless, and I don’t think it could be Gaster or one of his followers. I think this may be Dess, who somehow became trapped in either the game’s code, or some strange kind of dark world. The credits song “Don’t forget” could be Dess trying to reach out to Kris and remind him of something or give him some sort of clue to save her.
4. The bunker and Kris: Kris clearly has some trauma related to the bunker, and it’s almost definitely crucial to the story, of the game. What if it has to do with Dess’ dissapearance that Kris witnessed? Of course, maybe it doesn’t. It could he important to the story in some other way. Either as a final dark world or a Gaster related secret. But it may also be connected to Dess. If the Dreemurs and Holidays explored the forest as kids, they very likely stumbled upon the bunker.
I’m not trying to discredit your theory or call it bad, but I’m just giving you some more information that you may want to consider. I like your theory, and it’s definitely true in some capacity, I can’t wait to see where this plot thread goes in future chapters.
I don't really believe Noelle can cast snow grave irl
In the dark world she can only cast it with the thorn ring after all
But
The theory still can hold up
Maybe what killed dess wasn't her own sister but just a blizzard
We know kriss,azzy,Noelle and dess liked to go out to the forest to explore
Maybe on December the gang had the idea to go explore the forest again, during their exploration a Havy snowfall started that made them lost their tracks, asgore noticing they haven't arrived yet and with the heavy snow he starts looking for them
During that time something happened
The group looses dess
Ruddy knowing her kids are with azzy and kris's joins asgore in the search
They look for a long time
Enough for Rudy to start getting sick, but then they find the group
Except for dess, ashore tells Rudy to go back into town with the kids since he is also worried about Rudy getting sicker
He takes the desición to take everyone back to safety, at this point maybe he didn't noticed dess was not with them or he just decided to leave dess as a lost cause and save the remaining kids.
When everything passed
Her body was buried in snow
She froze to death
The snow became her grave
Snow grave
In the dark world, magic can be casted with Tension Points. Tension is also something in real life. Maybe for monsters, tension works differently than it would for humans. Maybe Noelle was in a very stressful situation, and that led her to being able to cast snowgrave, maybe. We know she is easily frightened by a lot of things. That sensitivity may have brought her tension to 200, and she unintentionally cast snowgrave. Just my theory.
One small thing: Kris is implied to not be the one commanding Noelle. For example, Noelle describes Kris's voice in the snowgrave route as being different, and she says that she can still hear the voice commanding her if Kris is downed in the battle against Berdly. Kris wouldn't need to know of it for the player to give the command
“It’s so sad that Dess is dead”
“Who’s Dess”
“Dess Nu-“
@DemonicLittleCat lmao
As someone whose alternate universe portrayal of Noelle can use the ice abilities outside the dark world, I enjoy this theory
"and sans is just sans."
that BROKE me idk know why lmao
Ok but what if Asgore despite the mayor's warning taught Noelle magic so she could defend herself. December probably would be someone who would have been helping or at the very least watching Noelle change but one day she was attacked and as Asgore was running he saw December jump in to try to protect her sister while Noelle was casting magic killing December.
personally, i agree with most of this, except that dess is actually dead. also, despite catti talking about magic, magic clearly isnt often practiced in deltarune.
Wow, incredble. This is by far your best theory of all time, everything makes perfect sense and there is no holes in it. Hope you make more Deltarune / Undertale content like this
You need a thorn ring to cast snowgrave, only hole I can think of
@@edifiedermine9247 and thats quite a prickly hole...ill see myself out now
There's another hole: Noelle's dialogue implies that December is missing, not dead. Also, the room that Queen made from Noelle's internet searches has a calendar that shows every day as Christmas, which suggests that Noelle has been looking up "December Holiday" frequently. This wouldn't make sense if Dess was dead, rather Noelle is looking up her missing sister's name in order to find clues about her whereabouts. Also, there is no grave for Dess in the town graveyard. In light of this, it's unlikely that December was found dead. Maybe she did die but only after going missing and nobody found her yet. I do believe however that Dess's disappearance is related to Asgore's removal.
Anyone notice the double doors in Aagore's shop? There very well could be a dark world there eventually.
And flowey will appear??????
@@guesty6128
Probably not since Asreal exists. Furthermore: it's unclear how or even if Undertale connects to Deltarune.
@@italex827 you dont get my point. In the dark world objects turn into living creatures. And if there will be a dark world in asgore's flower shop toby probably would sneak up flowey there somehow not as dead asriel but as another creature
@guesty6128
Or there might be a talking flower, but it might not be Flowey specifically.
Awesome video man thanks for pumping out content!
at first, I was like "no way"; but now, this actually makes sense! keep connecting the pieces up! and I hope you make a lot more content like this!
“And sans is just sans” you got that right lol
Loving the deltarune theorys
Same
@@chasethemaster3440 emas
It can't be a coincidence that Dress disappeared in the woods behind the church, i.e. where the mysterious bunker is located. I wonder how that will tie into everything, or if we might have some light world combat in a later chapter
while the snowgrave-killing-dess theory sounds VERY cool,,, it unfortunately has a couple flaws
it is confirmed that magic most likely does not exist in the light world, at least not in the same way as it does in the dark world
noelle says that she wishes she could do magic in real life in order to heal her dad
and as for the "how else could kris have known" thing, the thing is they really.. didnt? that was the player. kris couldnt have known that noelle can do that
This explains why Noel of all people had their whole alternate route! #givetammyatammyaceroute
wtf is wrong with you
what
I hate to be the one to poke holes in these theories, but there are some details you missed.
You have a strong point, but there are some indications in Deltarune that Monsters don't have magic, such as how Toriel uses the stove instead of fire magic, or how the subject of Magic in the Lightener world isn't about casting actual spells for the large part, but about hat tricks and whatnot. As if magic is taboo, or it doesn't exist as we know it in Undertale.
What's more, it's implied quite a bit that monsters can bleed in Deltarune, especially with the Thorn Ring. And their bodies don't turn to dust, unlike in Undertale. This is apparent with how Berdley dies in the Snowgrave route, which makes me believe that the use of Magic is what causes monsters to turn to dust.
And may I point out that the game is making it quite clear that Kris is trying to keep you, the player, from doing certain things. You are not Kris in this adventure, you just control them. Listen to Spamton, and how he comments on how Kris is unable to break his own strings at the moment. He knows something.
There's no solid evidence that berdly actually died
@@Salad_09Zel And there's no evidence that he lived, either
Not yet, anyway.
Well, someone tells us “how does it feel to bleed” so maybe they don’t bleed. Idk it’s left for interpretation
Kris and the player do not share an antagonistic relationship. Kris does put the soul back in his body after all.
It is only in Snowgrave that it does happen, because you forced them to kill his friends.
@@mysticalaces8623 Which character, and where?
Dude this is one of the best theory's i have seen this would explain a lot
You've got such a big range of video topics, I love it
Asgore really deserves better.
Interesting theory though I fing that noelle casting snowgrave outside of the dark world to be highly unlikely.
My theory is that Noelle, Kris and Dess were just hanging out somewhere but that Noelle maybe got into a fight with Dess and pushed her or kicked her or something of the sort causing her to lose balance, hit her head or get stabbed on a stick and die forcing Noelle and Kris into a panic and eventually making them get rid of the body, possibly throwing it away into the snow (explaining the repressed memories about snowgrave) and make up a false story about it, maybe going as far as to blame Asgore for it which results in him being fired. Noelle much later then explains to her father what really happened and is forgiven by him.
If you have anything wrong with this theory please tell me because I can rhen fix it to match what you say.
I don't think this theory works because, in the game, Noelle is shown to be an exceptionally good, but cowardly and insecure girl. Such an act as hiding her sister's body and blaming someone else, despite the fact that it destroyed his life, is not in her nature.
Кris could probably get rid of the body, but that would ruin his relationship with Noelle, as he would have to put pressure on her because she would think it was all wrong. After this, Noelle avoided and absolutely would not communicate with Кris.
Even if she thought that he did it for her, it would create a lot of tension in their relationship and she could not communicate with him in a friendly way and would not wonder if they were friends.
Maybe Noelle forgot it because of the injury.Also, if they had hidden the corpse, they would not have framed Asgore, since everything looks like Kris loves his father. Perhaps it was an accident or Asgore knows what the children did and covers them up, which could cause disapproval in his direction.
In any case, the theory looks stretched.
Love that you are making Undertale/Deltarune vids
0:41 Papa Asgore? Pfft, don’t you mean “Eggs Husband?”
Asgore and Detective Jowd from (underrated masterpiece) Ghost Trick have similar appearences and backstories. Loving police dads that got invovled in a mysterious tragedy, causing them to be taken off the force.
At least Asgore is a free(but broke) man. Jowd got prison time...
Call me crazy, but I think we are DEFINITELY FAR from the first Soul to possess Kris. In fact, what if Asgore was possessed at one point!? Someone controlled him into breaking the law, and (accidentally?) getting someone killed!
This could explain why Kris became obsessed with the Occult! And why Kris became the main target for possession, instead of someone strong like Toriel or Asgore!
If the mayor is related to the family whose names are Christmas themed, and also starts with C, I'm going to make a huge prediction right now:
Her name is Cayne
Ooo good guess! Here's mine: Carol
ok, I didn't think i was going to like your speculative theory at the end but it makes total sense
Kris definitely knows something. And it has something to do with the bunker. I think she could be in there, or her body at least? There is a secret cutscene where monster kid and some other snow dude stand in front of the bunker door, and talk about how kris told them something about the bunker, which made monster kid scared, but the snow owl dude called kris a weenie, and susie scared them off for that.
she then said "Kris, you ok?" Either due to the insult, or due to the bunker.
Can you make a deltarune spamton theory? I would luv it. Also your AMAZING and I believe in all your theory’s.
My first reaction to her having such a broken spell made me wish she could have joined the party back in Delta rune chapter 1
Why are you doing deltarune genocide routes O_o
Oh that was surprisingly darker than I expected
Missed ya! Glad you posted a video. I hope your staying safe!
Fantastic video as always I love deltarune and theories about it I can’t wait for your next one😊🥰👍💯💕💞💖
What of in this time line Asgore broke the seal to the underworld with just the first child's soul. As it was stated possible in undertale to break the bearier under such condition. It would account for everything, the break up with asgore, before undying's relationship, and sans is still new to town. All in another timeline a what if, if you will.
It is really convenient the internet is out when Asriel is gone. I suspect things around Dremurr (etc.) might also have to do with Asriels absense, which Toriel being Toriel would shield Kris from the real reason he is gone.
11:23 but isn't it us, the player (or the "vessel") who tells Noelle to use Snowgrave?
wait this isnt a nintendo game
It's on nintendo switch but it's not made by nintendo