It's trivial what the trap is. Libel and slander can easily be defended in any court by proving that what you've said was the truth, or if the person is a public figure (Hans is) that you didn't do it out of malice. The fact that Magnus cannot come out and say everything without "permission" from Hans means that 1) He cannot show that it's the truth by a preponderance of evidence 2) He cannot prove that he's not doing it out of malice. So basically he wants the drama to force Hans to make a blunder and give him this "permission" so that he can slander Hans each time Hans wins.
@@volodyanarchist or his explanation based on circumstantial evidence surmounts to truthiness and it still leaves him open to a lawsuit. Why would he just want Carte Blanche to just talk shit? The insinuation is more than enough to paint that picture while being covered as opinion.
@@maxhuzen6329 you do know that "circumstantial" evidence is admissible for a conviction right. If all your legalese is based on TV and the Amber Heard trial you're sorely mistaken.
To be frank, I believe Magnus here. He's by all account a chess genius, and I don't remember him making such frivolous claims before against others who beat him. If nothing else, him being who he is and what he can do should add some significant weight to what he's claiming. And inconsistencies are still inconsistencies, and Niemann has them.
Even chess geniuses aren't immune to being rattled, it seems. Magnus's paranoia about the situation seems to have contributed to him playing well below his level and losing to Hans
@@bryansweeney3077 Easy to say, but the fact is Hans has cheated in the past by his own admission. And there are red flags, such as his behavior during the game and his interview after. Study a line that Magnus allegedly did only one time before? Can you show me at any time in Magnus' professional history where he made this kind of allegation against another player? Any?
@@alexanderthered5603 Yeah but the difference is that Hans was the lowest-rated player there which angered Magnus that he lost to him. Losing to the best is one thing but it's another thing to lose to the lowest rated player.
It is so strange, that Hans holding his hands into the air while checked with the metal detector and Hans is holding his remote control in the hand. This is clearly a fault from the organizers.
Literally never clicked on a video so fast. I trust Magnus' judgement when it comes to natural vs unnatural play. However we can't punish Hans without definitive proof.
And that's why he is asking Hans for permission to speak. If Hans is innocent he has to say yes. If he just ignores Magnus then it's even more suspicious.
@@evylrune what permission to ruin his career why does he need permission if he has evidence this is ridiculous world championship means he can spit any nonsense
What's sick is that Magnus can just throw away 3 points in a top level tourney (his resignation against Neimann) and still win it convincingly like it's nothing lol.
I think Hikaru should examine games of Hans as doubleblind to prevent confirmation bias. Meaning Hikaru doesn't know if its Hans' game or some other youngster who we know doesn't cheat. Therefore Hikaru will analyze the game without bias and just objective thoughts.
@@yesno7889 there is no point in that. Hans plays like a regular player in some matches, and like the best pplayer in the world in others. He's too inconsistent.
@@yulyeong9220 Hikaru definitely knows thousands of games but today for example he has not seen a lot of Hans’ game as well as other young talents like Erigaisi, Nordibek, etc. Those other clean youngsters can be used as a control.
An interesting thing to do would be Hikaru watching/reviewing Hans' games and saying in which positions he would use the engine. In this way we could have a super GM's POV on how he would use an engine in a "controlled" way
The issue with that is that Hikaru isn’t an experienced cheater. What he decides won’t translate well to someone allegedly cheating professionally their entire life.
I'd rather like to see a comparison of HN expressions during the whole game with Magnus and other games where he is 1) convenient as he has a good position. 2) inconvenient as he has a bad position 3) stressed as the position is equal/difficult with opportunities for both sides. Magnus mentioned that he observed relaxed behavior.
@@FlorianWendelborn I don't think Hikaru needs to be an experienced cheater. The intuition and feeling for positions by super gms is just so good, they may need only a slight hint of what the engine would do to see an idea from a different perspective. This is what op wanted to see, the crucial points of the game where Hikaru would seek the aid of the engine
@@derrollmops Yeah but it still doesn't translate properly. Even a single inaccuracy could be an absolute game changer if you were hinted that. If you have an accomplice, you don't even need to think about all this yourself. Someone with an engine could show you a way to get a huge advantage (of ~+1.5) after a small inaccuracy. And once you see one of these moves, especially since they're super GMs, most next moves will be pretty obvious. Also, too much people think Hans would only cheat when he has to. What if he doesn't decide when he cheats, and instead gets "messages". Maybe most of the times he knew about the plans and the right moves, and didn't need the cheat at all. Danya said himself it'd take only 3 engine moves per game to be world champion with absolutely no problem at all.
- Hans : former cheater but not cheating anymore - Hans coach/mentor Maxim Dlugy : former cheater but not cheating anymore - Two former cheaters not enabling or encouraging each other to cheat - Hans becomes Einstein overnight and easily beats Mag as black with no stress All the above allegedly happened. All are possible. - Hans is suspiciously no longer Einstein during the postgame interview and cannot explain his own moves We cannot keep playing "final destination" at this point. He cheated.
Magnus is smart because if it ends up that Hans is cheating, then Magnus is a hero. If it ends up that Hans wasn't cheating, then Magnus enters into his Bobby Fischer era
It is hilarious to me how many people doubt Magnus. Literally the strongest player of all time. Literally the single best person to guage cheating. Known cheater, lies about how much he cheated ,it comes out his coach is a know cheater, other super GMs are sus, can't explain his moves, miracle prep but you just can't see the reality. Amazing.
@@donquixote8462 well, you underestimate the knowledge of people who have only entered the chess world when covid hit, they are far more trustworthy than the world chess champion and literally the best player
I'm not afraid to admit that I love this drama lol, probably one of the most exciting things that has happened within the chess world the last couple years
The problem for Hans is that Magnus isn't retired. If he was better than Magnus, he could just keep playing. Magnus is just willing to concede to Hans and still win the events lol
"If he was better than Magnus, he could just keep playing." What? No one, including Hans, thinks Hans is better than Magnus and Hans is going to keep playing chess. The problem for Hans is that Magnus got the whole world to believe he beat him by cheating with no evidence when he should have been celebrating the biggest win of his life.
Right meaning it's just his personality, many people have quirky social interaction habits, it's borderline ableist to say "he seemed distracted therefore he was cheating"
@@kylezo he has cheated so many time in past , his coach was banned from website for cheating . His elo jump wasn't natural at all . And you think you are more aware about natural and unnatural moves better than magnus?
It is quite obvious Has is a cheater and all the GM's know about it even before the tournament, yet the chess community is acting like Hans is innocent and done no wrong. Every single thing is pointng that Hans is cheating, heck even his coach is a known cheater, lmao.
Magnus looks like a whiney nerd, who can't accept he got dominated ONE game. His ego is that bad. Prove he cheated against you Magnus or just stfu. The whiney nerd is strong here. Hans is a great player, probably the most inconsistent player as well. And if he changed up something he probably is capable of being the 'best'
Best comment I read so far was the suggestion to analyze games from your POV and giving your info on when a super GM would actually check an engine for help. I feel that at your level you could be really sneaky with it so I'd be interested in that!
I dont think people grasp the chess knowledge grandmasters and in this case the world champion has. He has played against the strongest GMs in the world and im pretty confident that Carlsen can sense that something is off.
Or his ego is hurt because he's no longer the young chess prodigy genius in the room. Instead of letting Hans supercede Magnus' legacy, he wants Hans' chess career to be cut short
To any young players tempted to cheat take it in how that rep follows you weather or not you continue cheating it will continue making life shitty for all involved. your INTEGRITY is worth more than a chess match.
From a body-language perspective, I completely agree with Magnus regarding his game against Hans. If you watch the tournament, Hans was not paying attention to his games at all prior to the increased security. After the increased security, not only was Hans looking at his games more attentively, but his post-game analysis changed and his performance dropped. So, even if Hans did not cheat at St. Louis, there is certainly enough reasoning to suspect that something is off. Unfortunately for Hans, even if he /is/ innocent now, there will be many people that will have difficulty getting past the fact that he has admitted to cheating on multiple occasions in the past, and that stain is likely to be permanent.
Are you just going to ignore that you have no real proof and that this was actually one of Magnus' worst games. Magnus got a 43% engine correlation. Magnus was playing very badly. Are you ignoring all that? Nieman cheated when he was a child 🧒. Doesn't mean he's doing it now. And he's never cheated over the board.
@@sylvesteruchia5263 you have no proof whatsoever to say that hans never cheated otb... 😶 Only he knows, yeah we can't punish him without proof but that doesn't make him never cheating bc there is no proof... that's not how reality works
the thing is, Hans is 19. You'd think the entire chess world basically deeming him a villian and harassing him will let him play his best? Especially when you know that the best player in the world, Carlson, and many of your idols like Hikaru consider you a cheater?
The fact that Magnus detected early in the game that Niemanns move choices were so specific to a line that only his inside team would know, likely caused Magnus to play bait moves that were part of lines tangent to that private analysis Niemann should not have been privileged to. So the final 41% accuracy of magnus play was due to having observed Niemann chasing those tangents with knowledge of them. It feels like this is why Magnus wants to be given freedom to speak about the bait he dropped and how not even a computer could have guessed the odd lines his team had preparred in secret and that Niemann was suddenly finding with casual ease.
He is just a cry baby with a large ego. He rage quit the tournament and is basically acting like a spoiled brat. Now with this ridiculous statement he proves - he has no proof and is ready for his minions and trolls to carry on the work. Shameful. Hope he retires asap.
@@icyv6018 Will see how Magnus handles his recent performance. I believe he may have some issue with losing to much younger players who are relatively new to this level of playing.
If a tournament feels like they have to make this choice, and Hans loses out on potential earnings, then that's a clear lawsuit for loss of earnings and reputational damage
What do you mean? If I’m an organizer I would have hans and magnus at every event. That’s free drama and attention on the venue I never would’ve had before. If they never play a game it doesn’t matter because people will still tune in just to see what happens
The fact that you can’t detect a player getting engine assistance in 2-3 moves in critical positions online works against Hans. Once you open Pandora’s box nobody will trust you again because it’s virtually impossible to detect if done well and sparingly.
@@trucid2 he admitted to cheating. Also his climb to 2600 had over 20 games with 90% correlation with the engine AND multiple 100% engine correlation games according to chessbase. For comparison Magnus only has on average 70% engine correlation (highest in the world)
@@trucid2 Any evidence??? Lmao. Evidence is not the same as proof. There's a lot of evidence. -Previous cheating -Lying about his previous cheating -Suspicious change of performance in a shorts amount of time -Not being able to analyze his own lines after suspicious games. People who keep saying there's no evidence are really pushing for any cheater to get away with it.
One of the important parts of the statement was that Magnus wanted to resign *before* the tournament when he knew that Niemann was going to be playing. This goes to show that Hans' reputation affected Magnus, possibly even affecting the way he played and making him more paranoid. This is obviously a very delicate situation at play but I do believe that whatever happens next will likely change things in Chess on a very large level.
he is not the only one apparently Firouzja was a bit skeptical but never said it outright and Nepo was also uncomfortable but did not say it before either so this thing was existent before the tournement even started and now Aronian joined in, the difference is that these 3 players did not accuse Hans outright like Magnus
It's classic confirmation bias. Magnus went into it with a preconceived notion that Hans was a cheater, before the match he was concerned he would cheat, and then during the match he decided early on that Hans was indeed cheating and quit the match.
Heres the thing, we need confirmation from a third party (the TO or someone not acquainted wirh magnus) regarding his intention to resign. Also the whole "he didnt seemed focused" is also ridiculous. Unless he has played against Hans over the board multiple times and was close to him personally its impossible to perceive how focused someone truly is. Not to mention, when hans was ACTIVELY cheating his mannerisms/"vibe" would change, and magnus would pick up on that and include it in his statement.
@@TheExFloridaMan 100% you've never played against strong chess players OTB before. There's literally nothing absolutely nothing ridiculous in what Magnus said, it's super easy to notice if someone is deep in thought or not and if you really were not even focused and not tense at at all in critical positions and yet you still play top moves without thinking for long is 100% suspicious, top players tend to do this in critical positions even if they're playing against players hundreds of points lower rated than them now imagine not doing it against someone who's 150+ points higher rated Nah once again you show your lack of knowledge about the whole thing, this statement was carefully looked through by a lawyer to ensure nothing legal could be taken against it, so what does that tell you? Obviously it means that Magnus can't include everything he wants to say and that's exactly why he threw the ball in Hans' court and asked him for an explicit permission to speak openly Apologies if I offended you in any way, just trying to clarify things to you
Hans defenders were coping with his under performance AFTER increased security measures by saying he was just playing bad from being under pressure. Now I see some Hans coper is in Hikaru's chat saying that the reason Hans didn't seem tense or focused against Magnus is because he doesn't feel pressure while playing. The cope is real, and entirely illogical.
@@BoxingMMAFan1 Yes, that's what's being forgotten here, as time goes by. We're still working without any evidence...I think It's damned likely he's been cheating, but I wont accuse the guy without evidence.
Your whole comment is illogical. Yes if the whole world was accusing you of something you didn’t do, with zero proof, and everyone was believing the accuser just because they are popular then it’s entirely reasonable to assume some psychological effect. You are also completely ignoring the fact that Hans was the lowest rated player in the Sinqufield cup, which means his performance over the whole tournament was always likely to be low. Magnus/Hikaru fanboys don’t ever stop to actually think evidently
@@BoxingMMAFan1 first off this isn't the court room where proof is required, we don't need proof when we have common sense. And secondly, if it were a court room, Hans' admissions to cheating in the past could be used in the same way a positive/negative character witness is used in cases that lack concrete evidence. Hans sure has had a lot more colleagues question him than support him, so until some more concreate evidence pops up to defend him, then things are already looking bad for Hans and his fan club of low elo cheaters that appear to be defending him.
Completely absurd to see how many fools are twisting themselves in knots to defend someone who BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION has been caught cheating multiple times and who those inside the chess world has been suspicious of for years.
Completely absurd to see people denouncing Hans' performance over the board when there has not been a single shred of evidence pointing to him either being capable or willing to do so. He has been caught cheating once by Chesscom, self admitted to cheating once more when he was 12, and the suspicious is as Magnus said was purely due to the fact he was outplayed by Black at Sinquefield.
@@pakman184 Once a cheater, always a cheater. Even if he is proved to be clean, Han's name would be the first one to strike amongst his peers and chess fans due to his shady past.
If you play against a cheater, you are most likely to have a very low accuracy percentage because you will be forced into bad positions that your best move might actually be an inaccuracy.
HIKARU ought to do a series on the ascendancy of Hans and evaluate his games to see if he can detect what Magnus claims he can detect in terms of Hans' unnatural progress.
@@frankthecat1671 yeah and we wanna see hikaru, a person who is capable of doing it, to do it. no money will be wasted... and itll in the end be good content both for hikaru's youtube and twitch... would also potentially make hikaru more well known than he already is..... these are very simple things to think about so i'm just going to assume you typed your shit out when you were sleepy.
Yosha Echecs already posted a video doing that. She showed how Hans had many games with 100% accuracy to the computer best moves from chessbase. You can look at these games for yourself. Still does not prove anything but it makes it highly likely he selectively consulted an AI in key moments to get his rating up. That could explain why Magnus is suspicious and does not want to play him. If Hans can still win after a TSA screening and while in a Faraday cage then I think that would satisfy people he is not cheating. But given his history includes known cheating in the last 5 years then I don't blame Magnus.
@@frankthecat1671 And I've heard it said "people whose job it is" don't have the intuitive positional understanding of a World Top 100 player. So they are basing conclusions on weird maths that have their own dubiousness.
Han's interview with Alejandro indicates something fishy. He cannot recalls most of his moves nor analyze it correctly. Even at one point, his thoughts process is already losing badly but he can't tell as Alejandro turned off the engine. Hikaru even commented "that's not a 2700 player". His alibi? Well he said he was just tired. Lol.
Hans is in a losing position here. If he says "I wasn't cheating" then he just gets called a liar by Magnus and everyone else. The only thing he can do is to stay quiet. I have no opinion on whether he did cheat or not, but he's being put in a position of guilty (in the court of public opinion) without any evidence, with the concept that he has to prove his innocence. That's basically an impossible task because any evidence he provides, everyone will just say "so what else is there". I don't, at all, agree with that. This is a screw job whether he is guilty or not.
@@BurbenogExpert Which is why they are already calling him a liar, but using noncommittal words so they can wiggle out of it. People see that and see the best chess player in the world is calling this person a cheater. They don't see that there is no proof, no evidence, and that it is an opinion. If he gives permission to speak freely then they can say whatever they want as fact (even if there is no proof) and he can't do anything about it. If he speaks up he simply adds to the fire. His only move here is to stay quiet.
The problem is that you can't have evidence that something didn't happen. If you didn't eat cake there are no crumbs. Sometimes you can prove that you are innocent by proving that something else happened, but that doesn't really work for cheating.
@@schrodingerskatze4308 That's exactly the problem with what is happening. They've made a game he can't possibly win and are going to continue to bully him for it. The best he can do is shut the fuck up and hope it goes away.
His analysis of the game was with out a doubt a validation of everything Magnus said. Once a cheater always a cheater. The idea that he just suddenly shot up miraculously is bullshit. The idea that he is a genius who does not need to focus during the game under pressure, but falls apart during a post game analysis is for dum dums. He is cheating and sooner all later her will be caught again!
Let me see if I understand.. Magnus: "I need you to give me permission to go into the details of exactly how you cheated without you suing me for it" 😁
You do realize Magnus played Hans in several casual skittles games a while back and destroyed him. Then all of a sudden Hans is beating him in real competition. And considering Hans has a history of cheating....it seems likely he had help across the board. Im sure Magnus saw that he did the number one engine moves at all the critical times and was like, thats not how this guy plays.
You do realize Magnus and many others have destroyed many young players, then suddenly gotten beaten by them. Not saying Hans didn’t cheat, but this is just a terrible argument and means anyone who improves significantly at chess is likely a cheater.
@@colinbrash i know right. Most of these comments are made by people who know nothing about chess or top gms at all. But magnus knows a lot about these things. If he's concerned, i think it makes sense to listen
Hans has obviously been cheating over the board in the last few years. Multiple games analyzed show incredible 5 centipawn games he played in key events where he needed the wins. He's a known repeated cheater that was caught multiple times online. Whoever thinks he only cheated those times he was caught is a total naive rube. He says it only happened online, but maybe people don't realize this salient fact, cheaters are liars. Lies come easy to cheaters, they have no guilty conscience that would stop an ethical person from lying. They have no ethics. As far as I am concerned once it was known that he is a repeat offender chess cheater he should have been permanently banned from FIDE and US Chess events. Not to mention he was working with a coach/mentor that has been banned for cheating.
As a math student and hobbyists chess player, I can say one thing - it is not entirely clear to me that the anti-cheating algorithm is designed to catch "clever cheating" on 2600 + level. As many GMs said - a good chess player would only need to cheat once or twice in a game. It means, you can't statistically find it in a single game - moreover, it is extremely hard to find it statistically over many games - as a clever cheater doesn't have to use the top engine line, not even second or third. To give an example, let s say we have an already strong chess player cheating, with help from another already strong player. The optimal strategy - to cheat in a way to not be caught - is not to pick the best lines, but those that require a non-human kind of response to actually be punished. Chess is a game of mistakes, if one is sure that a given move will result in an opponent's mistake (even if the move itself, from the engine perspective, is not the best, or even a mistake) the said move shall be played. This scenario is extremely tricky. Ps. I am speaking about chess cheating generally, not saying that Hans actually cheated.
I think Hans should defend himself with all the means he has; showing his preparation for this specific game against Carlsen, thoroughly explaining his lines, and maybe even solemnly addressing the problem through a statement in which he declares, and swears, that these accusations are, in the name of good-hearted competition, false, without insulting those who suspect his cheating. I don’t think anything else will solve the problem for Hans, if he is innocent; and this attempt of defending his innocence, in my opinion, will certainly do something to his inner conscience The only reason I don’t think he cheated is because I can’t fathom somebody so flawed as to devote their life to a sport and, when given the opportunity to compete against the most admired ones, simply becomes a coward and a cheater… I think this would injure any moral person’s inner consciousness so gravely, that a person like this wouldn’t be able to sleep at all These declarations of Magnus are quite serious, but I will still give Hans the benefit of the doubt
By this logic, and I am not saying your logic is unsound, there is no way to protect the sanctity of this game. We must assume that every player at the top level is cheating or has cheated in the past. Because there is no way to prove otherwise.
@@Doncr4nk that's true according to theoretical point of view. But a seasoned player who has played 30,000+ games for 20+ years, read hundreds of books, met and discussed chess with high rated chess players to reach a 2500+ rating know the difference between a creative move, calculated move, prepared move, and top engine move. One more point: Magnus Carlsen lost hundreds of games before, even to much lower rated players and he never made a fuss about it. Instead, he often praised his opponents who beat him soundly. Heck, he even played against a lot of cheaters in online chess games and he's cool even though he lost. This is the first time in his career he straight up refused to play against someone in an OTB tournament. You get the point or do I need to spell it even more?
@@CharlesDarwinHimself I hope you’re right but to give a case for the psychology behind cheating, it may be a more common internal mental struggle than you think. When you factor in all the time and energy and dedication these guys put in, they may be tempted to get an edge to see all that hard work pay off in a material way. Elite chess tournaments are so incredibly hard to break into unless you have a stellar run of winning results. Many, many prodigies fail to eventually break into the top 20 players, and in terms of gaining the income from prize money and invitations, there just isn’t the kind of money in chess to spread down to the players that aren’t the very best of the very best. Think of Lance Armstrong, or any top level athlete found to be doping - they worked incredibly hard, but they also succumbed to the temptation to give themselves an illegal edge. Cheating blatantly all the time doesn’t make sense, it’s too easy to catch. But if you’re already a great player, you might be tempted to give yourself an engine nudge once in a while. Chess is a game of tiny advantages turning into winning results.
It’s not magnus alone. A lot of GMs don’t like (have expressed cheating concern over) Hans and all of them will now benefit while Magnus takes a social media beating alone
It just show that magnus really care about chess and the integrity of the game. He can choose to be silent about the issues(which may get worse over time) or take action against it which he did.
@@flamenami yeah cuz in his statement he literally said there's more he'd like to say, but needs permission from Niemann to openly talk about it. So the fact that you say he has no evidence when he's pretty much saying 'I have more to say (most likely evidence), but need permission to go about those details without getting into legal trouble ', is dumb.
@@hi-ve1cw Then if he keeps playing but stops cheating then his performance will drop significantly. He won't be having multiple 100% accuracy games per year, which will speak as light evidence that he was in fact cheating.
I don't follow chess but I don't see why anybody cares about this statement from Carlsen or how it implies that the ball is in Niemann's court now in any way. Carlsen claims he "strongly considered withdrawing prior to the event" and that "Niemann has cheated more - and more recently" while implying that he was cheating during their game. Carlsen presented absolutely no evidence for any of his claims other than him losing and Niemann's body language which could be interpreted in many ways and don't rise to the level of the accusations. What possible reason could there be for him to need Niemann's permission to bring out the evidence of him cheating? Why would Niemann ever give it to him if it only makes him look bad and Carlsen can't do anything without his permission? Carlsen's claims that he gave without evidence I think can be dismissed without evidence and the whole statement looks kinda dumb and cringe
There should be a "Cheaters' Cup" tournament in which players are expected to cheat. Standings will be judged according to several criteria -- 1) Whether the game was won or lost, 2) how well the player concealed the cheating both in pre-game electronic detection and during play, 3) how well the player performs in post-game interview discussing his thought process during the game. The tournament would be quite entertaining to watch, like a engine battle but with a human element. Moreover, it would get cheating technology and cheating behavior out in the open and greatly inform the chess community. Finally, it the tournament would be a rich data source for social-psychological research into the intersection of AI and society. Google might fund it with generous prize money.
This whole idea may seem dumb but it represents exactly the analysis that must be done to combat cheating. Why not make it fun by doing it in public? Otherwise it must be done in private, perhaps in the university setting, in a limited way, and destined to be too little too late. I say blast through the mess with a full-on assault on cheating with a public exposure of the whole business. We are entering the cyborg era in which normal human life exists in an intimate complex with computing technology, fully embracing of implanted devices. Increasingly, to play non-computer assisted chess will be practically impossible, and itself become the non-human way.
It's actually a fun and effective way to combat cheating. Kind of reminds me of how people will actually hire hackers to try to infiltrate their businesses. It's a way they can truly test their preventative measures. This is kind of similar.
They should a cheating version of professional cycling as well, but only judge it on who wins/survives strapping an orbital rocket booster to their bikes etc.
Magnus lawyer speaks for himself while Hans lets the chess do the talking PS: I have a duck video, a chicken video, a video where i am begging for money on Twitter, a walking video, a video where i am playing with my nuts. A short with a blog. A Naruto Arena video... Also a patreon
5:12 “There’s no other actual answer to all this.” I could think of one reason that Hans doesn’t give permission, assuming Hans is innocent (which isn’t clear yet): “No Magnus, I’m not going to agree not to sue you for defaming me so that you can openly defame me.”
@@miked2205 No that is pretty much it. Magnus has publicly accused Hans and destroyed his reputation without any proof of his claims. Hans has said he would sue if Magnus doesn't stop. If Hans is innocent then there is no proof that Magnus has that would prove he cheated, just more defamation. So why would he give him permission to continue to defame him? Obviously now if Hans is guilty and Magnus has definitive proof, then he wouldn't want that to be shared either. The thing is however is that if Magnus has proof, he doesn't need to worry about a lawsuit. The fact that he is worried about being sued if he shares more itself proves he doesn't have proof.
@@EF-wy3di No, first of all he didn’t defame him legally. He said what he *believes* is the case. Secondly, even though Hikaru explained this weirdly, he OBVIOUSLY isn’t asking Hans “hey promise me you won’t sue me so I can make *definitive* statements about you cheating without proof”. There’s something else going on. There’s clearly some information/data out there that Magnus is aware of that Hans has OR Magnus for some reason needs his permission to discuss, that shows whether he’s innocent or not (and clearly Magnus feels is shows he’s a cheat). Has nothing to do with Magnus just wanting to be able to make definitive statements without proof and not get sued. That’s nonsensical.
@@EF-wy3di where does Magnus even say he’s worried about being sued? That’s just hikaru talking. This was clearly well thought out by Magnus. If he was worried he wouldn’t have said anything at all. Again, nonsensical.
@@miked2205 Defaming has nothing to do with what you believe. It has to do with it what you said is true or not. What information or data? Exactly why do you think it exists? Because of what Magnus is implying without proving. Aka defamation.
Magnus played 47% against Hans lol dudes just throwing a fit unless he brings actual evidence rather than using his character gives the whole "you are maya higa" vibe
@@Risinqq "Magnus played 47% against Hans lol dudes just throwing a fit unless he brings actual evidence rather than using his character gives the whole "you are maya higa" vibe"-- Just like you claimed of Magnus, bring actual evidence he is "just throwing a fit" instead of having come to his conclusions this through logic and reasoning. Since you are not a master of thinking, you probably never considered that he could be playing less than optimal moves to see how Hans would react to them.
@@otherkorean as Hikaru said, it seems that Magnus’ middle paragraph is talking about critical decisions throughout the whole game though, not the opening prep.
Innocent until proven guilty. I mean if he had proof he would have given it if it was definitive. sounds like he is just suspicious. But I am afraid that Magnus is going to use his status to strong arm hans out of the competitive chess community whether hans is innocent or guilty of cheating in the tournament
If you need definitive proof to accuse someone then a lot of criminals will go by without punishment. Getting definitive proof isn't easy and often isn't found by the accuser but by the law enforcement. There first need to be clues and evidence to which then lead to an investigation. Surely you don't just ignore it if you hear loud children screaming everyday in your neighbor's house? Would you rather report them to the police for an investigation or just say it's not definitive proof?
@@coldheaven2584 (face palm) that's why you call the cops because you dont have definitive proof. Yes our society runs on the assumption innocent until proven guilty. Do you know that is why I cant accuse people blantonly
What if at the Sinquefeld Cup, Magnus played moves which only had one good but unnatural reply from Black just to see if Hans would play it and Hans did. Magnus was upset not because he lost, but his suspicions were confirmed.
if that was possible to do, wouldn't everyone do moves like that? and if everyone does moves like that, wouldn't people catch up to it and find the "one good but unnatural reply from black". Maybe even give it a name like "internuclear attack helicopter ballistic french declined putin counter gambit"
It’s illogical to expect Hans to prove a negative. Once cannot “prove” one didn’t cheat, the burden is ALWAYS on the accuser. Magnus’ statement said nothing of substance, so the ball is still in Magnus’ court. Magnus’ behavior is unconscionable (including impacting monetary prizes of other entrants in these tournaments).
I think you missed the point. No one was expecting Hans to prove anything. Hikaru explained that Magnus is waiting for Hans to respond and give him the go-ahead, so he doesn't get sued by saying anything he shouldn't.
Seriously?!?! He has to prove himself innocent? It is entirely on the accuser to demonstrate guilt, good Lord I would NEVER want any of you people on my jury....smh
@@kylezo the arbiters said they couldn't detect cheating, but they can't say there was no cheating. Director General of FIDE confirmed citing Ken Regan that they cannot detect occasional sophisticated cheating. Ken Regan has been clinging to pride trying to make his model sound complete, but critical moves and selective moves detection was never part of his main model. In fact, it was a limitation in his model that he had to address. The way he phrased it confused laymen to think his model covers selective move cheating too. The guy is too prideful and he's not a real researcher, he's a mathematician and an associate professor of computer science. he's not really doing proper research methods or ethics, nor are his papers critically reviewed by peers. he's just a smart guy with a hobby in detecting chess cheaters. his phrasing has confused so many people, but Director General of FIDE clearly admitted Ken Regan cannot detect occasional sophisticated cheaters. Ken Regan himself has admitted years ago his methods for detecting selective moves cheating are untested. Now in 2022, FIDE General still says he can't detect them. Ken Regan is so misleading in interviews even now making it sound like his model's got everything covered. but anyway, it doesn't matter if hans cheated against magnus. remember magnus merely needs to know hans had been repeatedly cheating right up to until before their match, regardless of whether hans cheated in their actual match. that is enough to withdraw from an ex-cheater if you believe they were still a cheater right before your match. as GMs have stated (and done before), if you can't catch someone, you can still not play them based on suspicion. they always had the right to forfeit, but they just don't cause they can't afford a loss.
@@Viewer13128 I don't think anybody made claims to the contrary, this is just a TH-cam comment that claims to know more than modern regulatory bodies. Kind of laughable imo. Everyone is an expert on the internet.
I absolutely love how Hikaru always puts the last pressure on everybody and isn't afraid to state his honest opinion. He said what Magnus couldn't and does an extremely good job at communicating the situation as a whole (and he has been spot on in the last few weeks). Props to Hikaru for that
But his opinion is wrong. You seem to agree, so you like what he said and praise him. You have the same wrong opinion. Objectively Hikaru is being malicious and should be sued.
If Magnus had definitive evidence Hans cheated he would have no need for permission to release it. Whatever supposed evidence he has must be baseless and he is afraid of legal repercussions of he were to run with it.
Carlsen seems to be *trying* to get the ball out of his court by presenting Niemann with an impossible dilemma. Carlsen is getting the ball out of his court by presenting as little evidence he can, evidence that proves nothing, like "he looked distracted" or "he didn't seem worried about the game." Forgive me for paraphrasing. Niemann is 19. It is completely normal for a nineteen year old to not be perfectly professional, or be thinking about a game while not always looking at the board. Not only that, but the dilemma the Carlsen put Niemann into with this letter is one where there is no option that benefits Niemann. Either he puts his reputation into Carlsen's hands, or he does not and suffers the consequences of looking like a cheater. Again, Niemann is 19, and to be in a situation where people are watching to determine your guilt in a court of public opinion must be quite stressful for Niemann.
Guys Hans story is that he live with his mother and he love electronics and programming so much So in my opinion I think that he for sure made something like engine inside himself or in his eyes idk but he is not Normal in his way he plays And he is acting weird in Normal life like talking and his face reaction
Former prosecutor for Miami and Orlando here …. Asking for a promise not to sue is something no attorney will ever agree to …. the accuser always has the burden proof. Meet your burden Magnus.
He doesnt need to as Hans would be disinvited from tournaments. So if Hans wants players to play against him, its in his best interest for him to let Magnus put all ifnormation out in the open. If not we can confirm there is a lot more that is suspicious in his play
@@pvstar1323 sure, this is nothing like legal world works-which has been forged with 400 years experience. But in the fantasy chess world: innuendo, speculation and conjecture is sure good enough 🤠
You can't take the word of an admitted cheater seriously. He claims he only cheated twice in his life, which is probably the only two times he was caught red handed. It's like asking a criminal in prison if they are innocent, hint, they will all say they didn't do it except that one time they were caught on camera. This is why it is better to never cheat at all, in this case you won't have to worry about accusations. Kids out there, don't cheat, lie, or steal.
Yeah Hans of course is a target to be suspicious of, however Magnus Carlson definitely played a terrible game in his match against Hans. There really needs to be evidence because it looks like Hans just took advantage of the many blunders Carlson made. At least from a game review.
@@blatantslander I dunno about that, but that's an interesting thought. To me it seemed that Carlson threw out some moves in the opener that were a little less common and unusual, which allowed Hans to take the initiative as Black, Castle first and capitalize on it. Then Carlson got suspicious that he was prepared to challenge his own strange moves so well. Because Hans didn't really have that many strange moves but he responded to Carlsons atypical moves correctly. Then Carlson tried to go for obvious trades but Hans used those moments to pressure other pieces.
This reminds me of Lance Armstrong. For a long time people were suspicious but can't actually prove anything. I am going to trust the intuition of the guy who is the World Champion and can beat a dozen people blindfolded. If he senses something is amiss...it is probably amiss.
4:41 "If Hans doesn't give permission, it's very clear, isn't it? [that he cheated]." Not necessarily - from Niemann's perspective, he might just be thinking: Why would I give anyone permission to spread falsehoods without repercussions?
Exactly. Hans has zero incentive to do this. Anything he says will be twisted into calling him a cheater, regardless of whether or not he is guilty. The problem is if he doesn't allow it, people will say that's proof of guilt. Classic zugzwang.
Neiman's career is on the line here. He can keep quiet and not be invited to any elite events in which Magnus participates. Neiman has all the incentive in the world to come clean or forget about chess as a career.
@@MrSupernova111 and you’ve just laid out Hans’ slander case against Mangus. All these people thinking this statement protects Magnus are blinded by their bias.
@@sdunigan06 . The one blinded here is you. Hans is a cheater. That's a fact. No one has a legal obligation to invite Hans to "invite only" events. If you organize a chess event at your house and declare it an "invite only" event you can't be sued for choosing who to invite. Get your facts together.
My opinion is if a player is caught cheating in the past, they should be barred from competition moving forward because cheaters do relapse and it’s in the interest of integrity.
Are you dum? He was a minor you pdf file PS: I have a duck video, a chicken video, a video where i am begging for money on Twitter, a walking video, a video where i am playing with my nuts. A short with a blog. A Naruto Arena video... Also a patreon
Magnus played one of his worst games in years and the opponent happened to be Niemann. Not even the World Champion can play perfectly in every game he ever plays. Maybe Magnus was playing below his level and Hans was playing at his own level or slightly higher. That's all it would take for this to happen.
No but if he isn't willing to let MC or others share what they know then that is suspicious and since we will probably never get hard evidence it would do his reputation well to allow what is out there to come to light. Unless he knows it's really bad in which case not giving him the benefit of the doubt is deserved.
he cant get sued for releasing evidence. its not that magnus has evidence its just that magnus cant put out his unfiltered opinion without getting sued
No no no. Truth is an absolute defence against libel or slander. If Magnus would have some actual facts then there would be no need for this trickery. Basically Magnus wants Hans to give him a right to slander without having to prove anything.
@@volodyanarchist I mean Mangus can easily just say whatever he wants anyways. Its not like the "slander" would ever hold up in court anyways because stating your opinion that you think someone cheated can never be considered slander. The issue is that he knows Hans or someone close to him will probably sue him regardless of if its a legit case or not and thats a pain in the ass. Hell, Hikaru said he was already getting legal threats and stuff too. You can sue people without a legit case. Magnus can go around and tell everyone he thinks hans is a cheater and say whatever he wants. Its never going to be taken seriously in court because to prove Slander, you need way more than "this guy said a mean thing about me and I dont like it". This is especially true because Hans would not only have to prove he is in fact innocent and isnt a cheater in order to win a slander/libel case, but he ALSO need to prove Mangus has malicious intent AND he needs to prove tangible damage to his reputation as a result of what Magnus said. These are all very high bars to actually prove in a legal setting. Hans would never ever win that case. The reason Magnus still wants permission though is because if given, then Hans cant even really TRY to sue then. It saves him the massive headache of Hans suing just to spite him even if he would lose the case anyways.
The next OTB that Hans is in will be interesting. If he is cheating (which there is currently no proof of), would he be confident enough in its undetectability to try anyway, knowing that the event may have the strongest security a chess tournament has ever had? If he is cheating, but elects not to during that event, he may be so markedly worse that it's noticeable. Then again, he could play just as brilliantly. The argument against cheating would gain much more traction in the event of the latter, but as referenced before, there will - regardless - be speculation that he's still somehow doing it.
yeah but dont u think now with so much pressure over him that everylittle pawn move being scrutinized he is never gonna have that focus to play a good game no
I don't know why people wouldn't trust Magnus' judgement on this. He's been beaten before, he'll be beaten again, and never had any ill will one way or the other. So why would he be so salty toward hans for no reason? It seems to me be an unjustifiable conclusion to say hans is not cheating based solely on that. And just to top it all off: once a cheater, always a cheater; your character is what you do when nobody's watching, and hans cheats when nobody's watching, that means he is a cheater, whether he cheated in the game against magnus or not.
"once a cheater, always a cheater" is just a stupid saying. It makes you sound dumb and ignorant. Magnus has Aspergergers so I would not trust his skills on reading others emotions.
i mean there is a saying goes “innocent until proven guilty” and lots of people abide by that, but i dont. i agree w you. honestly if some girl says she was sexually assaulted even if there was no proof, if ur actually a decent guy you would side w the girl even if she may be js falsely accusing
You're basically using the Keemstar defense here "If they're innocent, then why don't they come onto my show?" People don't fact check, and if the number one guy puts out a piece saying Hans is cheating then people aren't gonna read it, they'll see the title of the vid or article and just assume thats fact. You saying "I don't know why he wouldn't just let them say whatever" is a headass statement and absolutely ignorant. He put out a statement saying he's clean, then it's not on him to prove he's innocent. Its on Magnus to prove he cheated. A lack of a statement isn't proof of cheating. This is a trend going on where people are "guilty until proven innocent" and I won't stand for it.
if Magnus had evidence that clearly proves Hans was cheating during their game (or elsewhere), why should he have to wait on Hans to say anything about legal consequences? then, Magnus would win a potential court case anyway, right? Hans should not be the one delivering evidence to prove his innonce (that is almost impossible). That must be done by the accuser.
Hans doenst owe anyone anything.. saying if he says nothing it is basically admitting to cheating is just ignorant.. everyone is already breaking down every single game the man has ever played.. your Magnus bias clearly clouding your judgement
I stand by my tweet
okay
Hey Jimmy, can you make a beads cheating device video with Mark Rober?
Give me one million please :D i accept usdt :D
@@mickomagallanes1185 that would be hilarious
Thought this was a fake for a moment
if a world champion wants to catch you in a lie I imagine the trap will be pretty good.
It's trivial what the trap is. Libel and slander can easily be defended in any court by proving that what you've said was the truth, or if the person is a public figure (Hans is) that you didn't do it out of malice. The fact that Magnus cannot come out and say everything without "permission" from Hans means that 1) He cannot show that it's the truth by a preponderance of evidence 2) He cannot prove that he's not doing it out of malice.
So basically he wants the drama to force Hans to make a blunder and give him this "permission" so that he can slander Hans each time Hans wins.
You can never trust a cheater
@@volodyanarchist or his explanation based on circumstantial evidence surmounts to truthiness and it still leaves him open to a lawsuit. Why would he just want Carte Blanche to just talk shit? The insinuation is more than enough to paint that picture while being covered as opinion.
@@Maver1ck911 If all of Magnus' evidence is circumstantial, he shouldn't be accusing Neimann.
@@maxhuzen6329 you do know that "circumstantial" evidence is admissible for a conviction right. If all your legalese is based on TV and the Amber Heard trial you're sorely mistaken.
To be frank, I believe Magnus here. He's by all account a chess genius, and I don't remember him making such frivolous claims before against others who beat him. If nothing else, him being who he is and what he can do should add some significant weight to what he's claiming.
And inconsistencies are still inconsistencies, and Niemann has them.
He is the chess genius. He's never said things like this before to this degree.
Even chess geniuses aren't immune to being rattled, it seems. Magnus's paranoia about the situation seems to have contributed to him playing well below his level and losing to Hans
@@bryansweeney3077 Easy to say, but the fact is Hans has cheated in the past by his own admission. And there are red flags, such as his behavior during the game and his interview after. Study a line that Magnus allegedly did only one time before?
Can you show me at any time in Magnus' professional history where he made this kind of allegation against another player? Any?
Magnus played badly in that game, roughly 47% engine accuracy, way below his normal game or his near perfect games at 94% plus
@@alexanderthered5603 Yeah but the difference is that Hans was the lowest-rated player there which angered Magnus that he lost to him. Losing to the best is one thing but it's another thing to lose to the lowest rated player.
Hans: "I've been working on looking really nonchalant when I'm concentrating on chess. I find it distracts even my best opponents."
It is so strange, that Hans holding his hands into the air while checked with the metal detector and Hans is holding his remote control in the hand. This is clearly a fault from the organizers.
Hans’ gameplay is an expression of something deep inside him.
Lmao is that a vibrating anal bead joke?
You chose your words very carefully right?
Bah dum tss
the perfect choice of words.
I see what you did there
Magnus can feel the vibrations through the board
Lol
Yeah, he should also learn to decode it to know the move in advance and have more time
Magnus just showed he can throw away a game and still come out of the tournament with a +17 score over 28 games. Completely insane.
especially in a tournament filled with high level players
@@iwatchtoomuchhaikyuu5307 Not high level to his standards though; young in-experienced players.
I think that's unprecedented.
In other words...
SUS
just sayin'
@@itsapplesaucetoaboss8216 everybody more than 2700 level
Fischer in the making! Love it!
Literally never clicked on a video so fast. I trust Magnus' judgement when it comes to natural vs unnatural play. However we can't punish Hans without definitive proof.
And that's why he is asking Hans for permission to speak. If Hans is innocent he has to say yes. If he just ignores Magnus then it's even more suspicious.
@@evylrune give him permission to potentially talk as much nonsense as Magnus wants?
I believe Magnus but this is just not convincing enough.
@@FlyingUnosaur Magnus hasn’t talked nonsense before. You must be new here. Welcome to chess.
@@evylrune what permission to ruin his career why does he need permission if he has evidence this is ridiculous world championship means he can spit any nonsense
The “permission” part is another way saying he wants to accuse him harder and without proof. I hope that Neimann doesn’t fall for this trap.
Hikaru always reads stuff as if he's reading a book to children
Tbh, this is why I recently got into his content (due to the drama) but because his words are said in a soothing way
Just the way I like it 😂
That is the demographic or like half his chat
Most streamers audiences are literal children.
Hes reading to twitch chat.. whats the difference
Magnus may have resigned after 1 move last time but in doing so he started a new chess game on another level for us to enjoy watching.
So this is what 5D chess look like 🤯
what do you mean ‘MAY’
Agreed.
@@superitgel1 It speaks for itself
He should stick to playing on the chess board then because he's not nearly as good at this.
I love that Magnus puts "World Chess Champion" at the end. lmao
I know, lmao!
is a true statement tho
Technically he’s still the Champ until Ding and Nepo play their match
Just in case you questioned his credentials lol
gotta let em know
What's sick is that Magnus can just throw away 3 points in a top level tourney (his resignation against Neimann) and still win it convincingly like it's nothing lol.
right? and hans, a player who has made 3 top ten GMs scratch their heads cant make it to the finals with a free win
@@JakeLondonRivers he made it to finals?
@@1994mrmysteryman he lost in semifinals
Edit: quarter finals
@@1994mrmysteryman sorry cant*
@@JakeLondonRivers he lost in Semifinals and Magnus won the tournament with a record score despite throwing 3 points
Some guy responded to the statement “he didn’t even look tense” with “oh so we can put the anal beads theory to rest”
Lmao
hahahahahhaha
Maybe his ass got loose after many matches
For some people beads are relaxing 😇
@@hatakenewt348 🤣🤣
I think Hikaru should examine games of Hans as doubleblind to prevent confirmation bias. Meaning Hikaru doesn't know if its Hans' game or some other youngster who we know doesn't cheat. Therefore Hikaru will analyze the game without bias and just objective thoughts.
I think it might also be better if he doesn’t know which side is which
Except he already knows the games.
The problem is chess super gms like Hikaru can know the game based off the position
@@yesno7889 there is no point in that. Hans plays like a regular player in some matches, and like the best pplayer in the world in others. He's too inconsistent.
@@yulyeong9220 Hikaru definitely knows thousands of games but today for example he has not seen a lot of Hans’ game as well as other young talents like Erigaisi, Nordibek, etc. Those other clean youngsters can be used as a control.
Plot twist: Hans Neiman has a Yami Yugi alter ego that switches during a game. It's not cheating if he has the heart of the cards.
Jajajhhahhhahahha
Haha made my Day
"the heart of the pieces"
This would explain the quality of his interviews
I would say he's taking beta blockers. People do it all the time.
I loved what GM Benjamin Finegold said in chat: "The beads speak for themselves." 😂5:11
Plot twist...Hans is using beads...but just to boost his confidence not actual cheating.
but in his most recent tweet he's bashing Magnus statement calling him crybaby, what a two head clout chaser
@@memegazer no if you use headphones you can actually hear the vibrating morse code
@@CambiacapasYT he’s crazy
@@memegazer makes sense
An interesting thing to do would be Hikaru watching/reviewing Hans' games and saying in which positions he would use the engine. In this way we could have a super GM's POV on how he would use an engine in a "controlled" way
The issue with that is that Hikaru isn’t an experienced cheater. What he decides won’t translate well to someone allegedly cheating professionally their entire life.
I'd rather like to see a comparison of HN expressions during the whole game with Magnus and other games where he is
1) convenient as he has a good position.
2) inconvenient as he has a bad position
3) stressed as the position is equal/difficult with opportunities for both sides.
Magnus mentioned that he observed relaxed behavior.
@@FlorianWendelborn I don't think Hikaru needs to be an experienced cheater. The intuition and feeling for positions by super gms is just so good, they may need only a slight hint of what the engine would do to see an idea from a different perspective. This is what op wanted to see, the crucial points of the game where Hikaru would seek the aid of the engine
@@derrollmops Yeah but it still doesn't translate properly. Even a single inaccuracy could be an absolute game changer if you were hinted that. If you have an accomplice, you don't even need to think about all this yourself. Someone with an engine could show you a way to get a huge advantage (of ~+1.5) after a small inaccuracy. And once you see one of these moves, especially since they're super GMs, most next moves will be pretty obvious.
Also, too much people think Hans would only cheat when he has to. What if he doesn't decide when he cheats, and instead gets "messages". Maybe most of the times he knew about the plans and the right moves, and didn't need the cheat at all.
Danya said himself it'd take only 3 engine moves per game to be world champion with absolutely no problem at all.
Probably already been done many times over past three weeks.
- Hans : former cheater but not cheating anymore
- Hans coach/mentor Maxim Dlugy : former cheater but not cheating anymore
- Two former cheaters not enabling or encouraging each other to cheat
- Hans becomes Einstein overnight and easily beats Mag as black with no stress
All the above allegedly happened. All are possible.
- Hans is suspiciously no longer Einstein during the postgame interview and cannot explain his own moves
We cannot keep playing "final destination" at this point. He cheated.
Best comment.
The pressure of cheating accusations affect his mentality surely have impact his following match result to his defeats
Bro nothing you said is evidence…how can you prove he cheated in the game. You can’t…
You act as if it’s impossible for magnus to lose.
@@donaldvanvliet9039 He’s taken L’s to 14 year olds and shook hands and smiled, Hans’s play and explanation of his play is just extremely fishy.
I love how this drama will become a chess match in and of itself.
I hope it ends with publicly televised "best of" matches. Niemann v Carlsen: The Match of The Century
so meta
And after some exchanges were made we’re looking at an endgame, Magnus’ main domain of expertise.
Or a defamation lawsuit
@@starmorpheus Or a public hanging. I don't care who even. Like we can just get some homeless guy...I just always wanted to see one of those.
Magnus is smart because if it ends up that Hans is cheating, then Magnus is a hero. If it ends up that Hans wasn't cheating, then Magnus enters into his Bobby Fischer era
Do we know if Hans is Jewish? Hahaha
Well, he can resignate Hans games and still win the tournaments. It's his right and his superpower.
It is hilarious to me how many people doubt Magnus. Literally the strongest player of all time. Literally the single best person to guage cheating. Known cheater, lies about how much he cheated ,it comes out his coach is a know cheater, other super GMs are sus, can't explain his moves, miracle prep but you just can't see the reality. Amazing.
@@donquixote8462 well, you underestimate the knowledge of people who have only entered the chess world when covid hit, they are far more trustworthy than the world chess champion and literally the best player
LUL
Absolutely loving this drama. Even friends of mine who aren't into chess at all know about the anal beads 😄
Probably use them themselves in their freetime
If the anal beads industry benefits from this chess drama, it's all worth it
of course you love the drama, you are a typical brainless mainstream media fed sheeple
Same LMAO A friend messaged me asking "Did some chess player cheat using anal beads???"
Gotta love the anal beads, I even use them when I am not cheating.
I'm not afraid to admit that I love this drama lol, probably one of the most exciting things that has happened within the chess world the last couple years
Sure. Cheating is an existential threat to chess. Drama is what gives it life.
Agreed. It's like how the steroid scandal revived my interest in baseball.
@@omniyambot9876 nice quote from magnus you used... 🤦♂
@@kieranb7747 bro your iq is room temp?
It's one of the most dramatic things to happen to chess in history, not just the last couple years.
The problem for Hans is that Magnus isn't retired. If he was better than Magnus, he could just keep playing. Magnus is just willing to concede to Hans and still win the events lol
If that turns out to be how it goes, then I wouldn’t be shocked if Magnus just refuses to retire until Hans does it first.
@@FlorianWendelborn fat chance Hans is 19 lol
"If he was better than Magnus, he could just keep playing." What? No one, including Hans, thinks Hans is better than Magnus and Hans is going to keep playing chess. The problem for Hans is that Magnus got the whole world to believe he beat him by cheating with no evidence when he should have been celebrating the biggest win of his life.
@@volty3454 then Magnus will play till death, no biggie =)
more likely magnus will stop doing events where hans is invited, meaning organizers won't invite hans for fear of losing magnus
I have to say Hans's Interview REALLY matches what Magnus said about that he seemed to not even concentrate fully during the game.
Right meaning it's just his personality, many people have quirky social interaction habits, it's borderline ableist to say "he seemed distracted therefore he was cheating"
@@kylezo he has cheated so many time in past , his coach was banned from website for cheating . His elo jump wasn't natural at all . And you think you are more aware about natural and unnatural moves better than magnus?
@@kylezo no chance
@@kylezo “borderline ableist” lmao bruh
@@justinhuang5245 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ you don't have to understand
This whole controversy feels like a chess match in itself.
legal chess
It is quite obvious Has is a cheater and all the GM's know about it even before the tournament, yet the chess community is acting like Hans is innocent and done no wrong. Every single thing is pointng that Hans is cheating, heck even his coach is a known cheater, lmao.
"[Hans's] rise is one of the fastest of all time"
*The* fastest of all time. The next fastest is Alireza and Hans's climb blows Alireza away.
It's not like there aren't similar cases to Hans. Vincent Keymer has a smiliar rise so does Prag and Eri.
The amount of FIDE games Hans has played is the only thing really unprecedented
Not really. Pragg, Raunak, Nihal, Arjun, Keymer and Nodirbek have all had similar rises in recent years.
@@areebsiddiqui758 Incorrect, it's not even close.
@@areebsiddiqui758 but not like Hans. Beating Magnus in a classical game with the black pieces?
Well, Magnus just spoke for himself
Magnus’ lawyer speaks for himself.
And didn't present any evidence whatever.
Magnus looks like a whiney nerd, who can't accept he got dominated ONE game. His ego is that bad. Prove he cheated against you Magnus or just stfu. The whiney nerd is strong here. Hans is a great player, probably the most inconsistent player as well. And if he changed up something he probably is capable of being the 'best'
@@ItIsYouAreNotYour Why isn't Hans defending himself in the public forum, now that Magnus has offered more information? Hans looks guilty here.
@@ItIsYouAreNotYour i mean if he keeps playing like that he will surely be the best and might have a shot in world chess engine tournaments
Best comment I read so far was the suggestion to analyze games from your POV and giving your info on when a super GM would actually check an engine for help. I feel that at your level you could be really sneaky with it so I'd be interested in that!
I dont think people grasp the chess knowledge grandmasters and in this case the world champion has. He has played against the strongest GMs in the world and im pretty confident that Carlsen can sense that something is off.
I’m confident he can’t and he has no evidence now what?
It's still all just hearsay until he comes out with something of substance. Considering the investigation showed nothing.
@@thomasshepard9149 your confidence is not justified
Or his ego is hurt because he's no longer the young chess prodigy genius in the room. Instead of letting Hans supercede Magnus' legacy, he wants Hans' chess career to be cut short
@@thguzzo17 magnus literally made mistakes in that game
To any young players tempted to cheat take it in how that rep follows you weather or not you continue cheating it will continue making life shitty for all involved. your INTEGRITY is worth more than a chess match.
Where’s your proof on these recent matches that he cheated? Just stop
@@tonyhuynh707 that's why I said weather or not you continue to cheat
@@tonyhuynh707 learn to read
@@tonyhuynh707 ywnbaw
@@tonyhuynh707 this post isn't about Hans its a warning about damages of degrading your integrity
From a body-language perspective, I completely agree with Magnus regarding his game against Hans. If you watch the tournament, Hans was not paying attention to his games at all prior to the increased security. After the increased security, not only was Hans looking at his games more attentively, but his post-game analysis changed and his performance dropped. So, even if Hans did not cheat at St. Louis, there is certainly enough reasoning to suspect that something is off. Unfortunately for Hans, even if he /is/ innocent now, there will be many people that will have difficulty getting past the fact that he has admitted to cheating on multiple occasions in the past, and that stain is likely to be permanent.
Are you just going to ignore that you have no real proof and that this was actually one of Magnus' worst games.
Magnus got a 43% engine correlation. Magnus was playing very badly.
Are you ignoring all that?
Nieman cheated when he was a child 🧒. Doesn't mean he's doing it now. And he's never cheated over the board.
@@sylvesteruchia5263 you say he cheated as a child like he was a child 15 years ago. He cheated 3 years ago lmao
@@sylvesteruchia5263 you have no proof whatsoever to say that hans never cheated otb... 😶
Only he knows, yeah we can't punish him without proof but that doesn't make him never cheating bc there is no proof... that's not how reality works
the thing is, Hans is 19. You'd think the entire chess world basically deeming him a villian and harassing him will let him play his best? Especially when you know that the best player in the world, Carlson, and many of your idols like Hikaru consider you a cheater?
@@aspenxevel8296 I mean he is a cheater
Magnus accuses Hans. Magnus should come up with evidence, not Hans. You can not prove you did nothing wrong, if you did nothing wrong
But he’s not allowed to present evidence without permission otherwise it’s a lawsuit
Obviously the solution to this whole thing is Magnus and Hans need to headline Ludwig's upcoming chess boxing event.
Magnus would hit Hans so hard that the anal beads would shit out 🤣🤣
1rst round ko by Magnus easy money
No one considers the challenges Hans has faced during this whole ordeal. Playing against Magnus is a major pain in the butt.
more like pleasure in the butt for hans specifically.
Nice choice of words!
Lol
This joke speaks for its self
LITERALLY
"The beads speaks for themselves "
The fact that Magnus detected early in the game that Niemanns move choices were so specific to a line that only his inside team would know, likely caused Magnus to play bait moves that were part of lines tangent to that private analysis Niemann should not have been privileged to. So the final 41% accuracy of magnus play was due to having observed Niemann chasing those tangents with knowledge of them. It feels like this is why Magnus wants to be given freedom to speak about the bait he dropped and how not even a computer could have guessed the odd lines his team had preparred in secret and that Niemann was suddenly finding with casual ease.
Magnus is quite the genius. I believe you're right. Magnus might have set the bait to catch Niemann
He is just a cry baby with a large ego. He rage quit the tournament and is basically acting like a spoiled brat. Now with this ridiculous statement he proves - he has no proof and is ready for his minions and trolls to carry on the work. Shameful. Hope he retires asap.
@@mehloser880 W
@@mehloser880 your username is perfect for you🥰
@@icyv6018 Will see how Magnus handles his recent performance. I believe he may have some issue with losing to much younger players who are relatively new to this level of playing.
If a tournament organizer has a choice between Hans and Magnus, that's checkmate for Hans.
They usually do not have this choice
If a tournament feels like they have to make this choice, and Hans loses out on potential earnings, then that's a clear lawsuit for loss of earnings and reputational damage
What do you mean? If I’m an organizer I would have hans and magnus at every event. That’s free drama and attention on the venue I never would’ve had before. If they never play a game it doesn’t matter because people will still tune in just to see what happens
@@hollowichigo1023 Magnus just won't turn up, what happens then?
and soon he will have to choose which diva will still play against what other diva and how he can keep tournament forfeits at a minimum
The fact that you can’t detect a player getting engine assistance in 2-3 moves in critical positions online works against Hans. Once you open Pandora’s box nobody will trust you again because it’s virtually impossible to detect if done well and sparingly.
The match wasnt online tho
If anyone can be accused of cheating without any evidence on that basis then that helps Hans--he is on equal footing with everyone else.
@@trucid2 no, the difference between him and ALL the other top players is he’s been caught and admitted to cheating.
@@trucid2 he admitted to cheating. Also his climb to 2600 had over 20 games with 90% correlation with the engine AND multiple 100% engine correlation games according to chessbase. For comparison Magnus only has on average 70% engine correlation (highest in the world)
@@trucid2 Any evidence??? Lmao. Evidence is not the same as proof. There's a lot of evidence.
-Previous cheating
-Lying about his previous cheating
-Suspicious change of performance in a shorts amount of time
-Not being able to analyze his own lines after suspicious games.
People who keep saying there's no evidence are really pushing for any cheater to get away with it.
Free rating for Niemann every match vs Magnus EZ Clap
Niemann 5Head
Good luck getting invited to tournaments with magnus in lmao
Hans sjould play the bong cloud every time for a big 🖕 to Magnus
@@aluminiumknight4038 You get automatically invited by ranking and wins in most tournaments. It won't be a problem for him
@@conelord1984
If the organizers know the world's best won't play with a specific person, guess who will get uninvited to keep the world champ?
One of the important parts of the statement was that Magnus wanted to resign *before* the tournament when he knew that Niemann was going to be playing. This goes to show that Hans' reputation affected Magnus, possibly even affecting the way he played and making him more paranoid. This is obviously a very delicate situation at play but I do believe that whatever happens next will likely change things in Chess on a very large level.
he is not the only one apparently Firouzja was a bit skeptical but never said it outright and Nepo was also uncomfortable but did not say it before either so this thing was existent before the tournement even started and now Aronian joined in, the difference is that these 3 players did not accuse Hans outright like Magnus
It's classic confirmation bias. Magnus went into it with a preconceived notion that Hans was a cheater, before the match he was concerned he would cheat, and then during the match he decided early on that Hans was indeed cheating and quit the match.
Heres the thing, we need confirmation from a third party (the TO or someone not acquainted wirh magnus) regarding his intention to resign. Also the whole "he didnt seemed focused" is also ridiculous. Unless he has played against Hans over the board multiple times and was close to him personally its impossible to perceive how focused someone truly is. Not to mention, when hans was ACTIVELY cheating his mannerisms/"vibe" would change, and magnus would pick up on that and include it in his statement.
@@TheExFloridaMan fabi confirmed it before magnus' statement
@@TheExFloridaMan 100% you've never played against strong chess players OTB before.
There's literally nothing absolutely nothing ridiculous in what Magnus said, it's super easy to notice if someone is deep in thought or not and if you really were not even focused and not tense at at all in critical positions and yet you still play top moves without thinking for long is 100% suspicious, top players tend to do this in critical positions even if they're playing against players hundreds of points lower rated than them now imagine not doing it against someone who's 150+ points higher rated
Nah once again you show your lack of knowledge about the whole thing, this statement was carefully looked through by a lawyer to ensure nothing legal could be taken against it, so what does that tell you? Obviously it means that Magnus can't include everything he wants to say and that's exactly why he threw the ball in Hans' court and asked him for an explicit permission to speak openly
Apologies if I offended you in any way, just trying to clarify things to you
it's always enjoyable to see the
Okay but magnus made more mistakes in that game than he usually does and it's suddenly hans's fault
Hans defenders were coping with his under performance AFTER increased security measures by saying he was just playing bad from being under pressure. Now I see some Hans coper is in Hikaru's chat saying that the reason Hans didn't seem tense or focused against Magnus is because he doesn't feel pressure while playing. The cope is real, and entirely illogical.
Coping with what, there is literally zero proof Hans cheated lmao this is insane
Half of those people don’t even know how to En Passant! They accuse Magnus for free
@@BoxingMMAFan1 Yes, that's what's being forgotten here, as time goes by.
We're still working without any evidence...I think It's damned likely he's been cheating, but I wont accuse the guy without evidence.
Your whole comment is illogical. Yes if the whole world was accusing you of something you didn’t do, with zero proof, and everyone was believing the accuser just because they are popular then it’s entirely reasonable to assume some psychological effect. You are also completely ignoring the fact that Hans was the lowest rated player in the Sinqufield cup, which means his performance over the whole tournament was always likely to be low. Magnus/Hikaru fanboys don’t ever stop to actually think evidently
@@BoxingMMAFan1 first off this isn't the court room where proof is required, we don't need proof when we have common sense. And secondly, if it were a court room, Hans' admissions to cheating in the past could be used in the same way a positive/negative character witness is used in cases that lack concrete evidence.
Hans sure has had a lot more colleagues question him than support him, so until some more concreate evidence pops up to defend him, then things are already looking bad for Hans and his fan club of low elo cheaters that appear to be defending him.
Completely absurd to see how many fools are twisting themselves in knots to defend someone who BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION has been caught cheating multiple times and who those inside the chess world has been suspicious of for years.
Completely absurd to see people denouncing Hans' performance over the board when there has not been a single shred of evidence pointing to him either being capable or willing to do so. He has been caught cheating once by Chesscom, self admitted to cheating once more when he was 12, and the suspicious is as Magnus said was purely due to the fact he was outplayed by Black at Sinquefield.
If Hans wasn't American he wouldn't get that much support...
Those games were not even rated. It was just a casual online game when he was 12 years old. Cut the poor kid some slack.
He's been CAUGHT two times. Huge difference. No doubt he has cheated plenty of times.
@@pakman184 Once a cheater, always a cheater. Even if he is proved to be clean, Han's name would be the first one to strike amongst his peers and chess fans due to his shady past.
If you play against a cheater, you are most likely to have a very low accuracy percentage because you will be forced into bad positions that your best move might actually be an inaccuracy.
HIKARU ought to do a series on the ascendancy of Hans and evaluate his games to see if he can detect what Magnus claims he can detect in terms of Hans' unnatural progress.
Yeah that would be cool
thats a huge waste of time and energy. There are people whose job it is to do stuff like that.
@@frankthecat1671 yeah and we wanna see hikaru, a person who is capable of doing it, to do it. no money will be wasted... and itll in the end be good content both for hikaru's youtube and twitch... would also potentially make hikaru more well known than he already is..... these are very simple things to think about so i'm just going to assume you typed your shit out when you were sleepy.
Yosha Echecs already posted a video doing that. She showed how Hans had many games with 100% accuracy to the computer best moves from chessbase. You can look at these games for yourself.
Still does not prove anything but it makes it highly likely he selectively consulted an AI in key moments to get his rating up. That could explain why Magnus is suspicious and does not want to play him.
If Hans can still win after a TSA screening and while in a Faraday cage then I think that would satisfy people he is not cheating. But given his history includes known cheating in the last 5 years then I don't blame Magnus.
@@frankthecat1671 And I've heard it said "people whose job it is" don't have the intuitive positional understanding of a World Top 100 player. So they are basing conclusions on weird maths that have their own dubiousness.
Han's interview with Alejandro indicates something fishy. He cannot recalls most of his moves nor analyze it correctly. Even at one point, his thoughts process is already losing badly but he can't tell as Alejandro turned off the engine. Hikaru even commented "that's not a 2700 player". His alibi? Well he said he was just tired. Lol.
Hans is in a losing position here. If he says "I wasn't cheating" then he just gets called a liar by Magnus and everyone else. The only thing he can do is to stay quiet. I have no opinion on whether he did cheat or not, but he's being put in a position of guilty (in the court of public opinion) without any evidence, with the concept that he has to prove his innocence. That's basically an impossible task because any evidence he provides, everyone will just say "so what else is there". I don't, at all, agree with that. This is a screw job whether he is guilty or not.
If he is getting called a liar then he can sue them.
@@BurbenogExpert Which is why they are already calling him a liar, but using noncommittal words so they can wiggle out of it. People see that and see the best chess player in the world is calling this person a cheater. They don't see that there is no proof, no evidence, and that it is an opinion. If he gives permission to speak freely then they can say whatever they want as fact (even if there is no proof) and he can't do anything about it. If he speaks up he simply adds to the fire. His only move here is to stay quiet.
The problem is that you can't have evidence that something didn't happen. If you didn't eat cake there are no crumbs. Sometimes you can prove that you are innocent by proving that something else happened, but that doesn't really work for cheating.
@@schrodingerskatze4308 but with just suspicion is fine to go public, and destroy someones career :D
@@schrodingerskatze4308 That's exactly the problem with what is happening. They've made a game he can't possibly win and are going to continue to bully him for it. The best he can do is shut the fuck up and hope it goes away.
His analysis of the game was with out a doubt a validation of everything Magnus said. Once a cheater always a cheater. The idea that he just suddenly shot up miraculously is bullshit. The idea that he is a genius who does not need to focus during the game under pressure, but falls apart during a post game analysis is for dum dums. He is cheating and sooner all later her will be caught again!
Let me see if I understand..
Magnus: "I need you to give me permission to go into the details of exactly how you cheated without you suing me for it" 😁
More like: "He already hit me with an injunction, so I can't say anything more."
That's how the world works. If I was Hans I also wouldn't want anyone to slander me without proof.
What a shitty statement... "I think he was cheating because no one can outplay me with the black pieces". REALLY???
True 😂
i find that funny, he shouldve just said "accurate play with the black pieces," the inclusion of that statement was odd
You do realize Magnus played Hans in several casual skittles games a while back and destroyed him. Then all of a sudden Hans is beating him in real competition. And considering Hans has a history of cheating....it seems likely he had help across the board. Im sure Magnus saw that he did the number one engine moves at all the critical times and was like, thats not how this guy plays.
On short notice at that
You do realize Magnus and many others have destroyed many young players, then suddenly gotten beaten by them.
Not saying Hans didn’t cheat, but this is just a terrible argument and means anyone who improves significantly at chess is likely a cheater.
Hans is still at the age where he can make significant leaps in his improvement.
@@colinbrash i know right. Most of these comments are made by people who know nothing about chess or top gms at all. But magnus knows a lot about these things. If he's concerned, i think it makes sense to listen
You can be as sure as you want but even the worst criminals should be treated with respect and as innocents until proven otherwise
Hans has obviously been cheating over the board in the last few years. Multiple games analyzed show incredible 5 centipawn games he played in key events where he needed the wins. He's a known repeated cheater that was caught multiple times online. Whoever thinks he only cheated those times he was caught is a total naive rube. He says it only happened online, but maybe people don't realize this salient fact, cheaters are liars. Lies come easy to cheaters, they have no guilty conscience that would stop an ethical person from lying. They have no ethics. As far as I am concerned once it was known that he is a repeat offender chess cheater he should have been permanently banned from FIDE and US Chess events. Not to mention he was working with a coach/mentor that has been banned for cheating.
he’s a super gm of course he plays well in critical games😂
As a math student and hobbyists chess player, I can say one thing - it is not entirely clear to me that the anti-cheating algorithm is designed to catch "clever cheating" on 2600 + level. As many GMs said - a good chess player would only need to cheat once or twice in a game. It means, you can't statistically find it in a single game - moreover, it is extremely hard to find it statistically over many games - as a clever cheater doesn't have to use the top engine line, not even second or third. To give an example, let s say we have an already strong chess player cheating, with help from another already strong player. The optimal strategy - to cheat in a way to not be caught - is not to pick the best lines, but those that require a non-human kind of response to actually be punished. Chess is a game of mistakes, if one is sure that a given move will result in an opponent's mistake (even if the move itself, from the engine perspective, is not the best, or even a mistake) the said move shall be played. This scenario is extremely tricky.
Ps. I am speaking about chess cheating generally, not saying that Hans actually cheated.
I think Hans should defend himself with all the means he has; showing his preparation for this specific game against Carlsen, thoroughly explaining his lines, and maybe even solemnly addressing the problem through a statement in which he declares, and swears, that these accusations are, in the name of good-hearted competition, false, without insulting those who suspect his cheating. I don’t think anything else will solve the problem for Hans, if he is innocent; and this attempt of defending his innocence, in my opinion, will certainly do something to his inner conscience
The only reason I don’t think he cheated is because I can’t fathom somebody so flawed as to devote their life to a sport and, when given the opportunity to compete against the most admired ones, simply becomes a coward and a cheater… I think this would injure any moral person’s inner consciousness so gravely, that a person like this wouldn’t be able to sleep at all
These declarations of Magnus are quite serious, but I will still give Hans the benefit of the doubt
Underrated comment
By this logic, and I am not saying your logic is unsound, there is no way to protect the sanctity of this game. We must assume that every player at the top level is cheating or has cheated in the past. Because there is no way to prove otherwise.
@@Doncr4nk that's true according to theoretical point of view. But a seasoned player who has played 30,000+ games for 20+ years, read hundreds of books, met and discussed chess with high rated chess players to reach a 2500+ rating know the difference between a creative move, calculated move, prepared move, and top engine move. One more point: Magnus Carlsen lost hundreds of games before, even to much lower rated players and he never made a fuss about it. Instead, he often praised his opponents who beat him soundly. Heck, he even played against a lot of cheaters in online chess games and he's cool even though he lost. This is the first time in his career he straight up refused to play against someone in an OTB tournament. You get the point or do I need to spell it even more?
@@CharlesDarwinHimself I hope you’re right but to give a case for the psychology behind cheating, it may be a more common internal mental struggle than you think. When you factor in all the time and energy and dedication these guys put in, they may be tempted to get an edge to see all that hard work pay off in a material way. Elite chess tournaments are so incredibly hard to break into unless you have a stellar run of winning results. Many, many prodigies fail to eventually break into the top 20 players, and in terms of gaining the income from prize money and invitations, there just isn’t the kind of money in chess to spread down to the players that aren’t the very best of the very best.
Think of Lance Armstrong, or any top level athlete found to be doping - they worked incredibly hard, but they also succumbed to the temptation to give themselves an illegal edge. Cheating blatantly all the time doesn’t make sense, it’s too easy to catch. But if you’re already a great player, you might be tempted to give yourself an engine nudge once in a while. Chess is a game of tiny advantages turning into winning results.
Can we start calling him Hans.exe already
Genius comment sir.
Please yes
You mean word.exe?
It’s not magnus alone. A lot of GMs don’t like (have expressed cheating concern over) Hans and all of them will now benefit while Magnus takes a social media beating alone
It just show that magnus really care about chess and the integrity of the game. He can choose to be silent about the issues(which may get worse over time) or take action against it which he did.
@@coldheaven2584 Would be nice if he could actually offer up any evidence beyond "Trust me bro"
@@flamenami dumb take
@@jaasonjones4419 dumb take to actually want evidence beyond “I think so”???
@@flamenami yeah cuz in his statement he literally said there's more he'd like to say, but needs permission from Niemann to openly talk about it. So the fact that you say he has no evidence when he's pretty much saying 'I have more to say (most likely evidence), but need permission to go about those details without getting into legal trouble ', is dumb.
hans cheated
We have to keep letting hans play to figure out if he's cheating
The first meaningful comment I've read in here.
there's one problem with this, all results will be skewed if he's actually cheating
Well he's definitely going to take a break from cheating *IF* he's been cheating
Ya, if he's a cheater he can't stop now because he'll start losing and if he keeps cheating he's gonna get caught
@@hi-ve1cw Then if he keeps playing but stops cheating then his performance will drop significantly. He won't be having multiple 100% accuracy games per year, which will speak as light evidence that he was in fact cheating.
I don't follow chess but I don't see why anybody cares about this statement from Carlsen or how it implies that the ball is in Niemann's court now in any way. Carlsen claims he "strongly considered withdrawing prior to the event" and that "Niemann has cheated more - and more recently" while implying that he was cheating during their game. Carlsen presented absolutely no evidence for any of his claims other than him losing and Niemann's body language which could be interpreted in many ways and don't rise to the level of the accusations. What possible reason could there be for him to need Niemann's permission to bring out the evidence of him cheating? Why would Niemann ever give it to him if it only makes him look bad and Carlsen can't do anything without his permission? Carlsen's claims that he gave without evidence I think can be dismissed without evidence and the whole statement looks kinda dumb and cringe
There should be a "Cheaters' Cup" tournament in which players are expected to cheat. Standings will be judged according to several criteria -- 1) Whether the game was won or lost, 2) how well the player concealed the cheating both in pre-game electronic detection and during play, 3) how well the player performs in post-game interview discussing his thought process during the game. The tournament would be quite entertaining to watch, like a engine battle but with a human element. Moreover, it would get cheating technology and cheating behavior out in the open and greatly inform the chess community. Finally, it the tournament would be a rich data source for social-psychological research into the intersection of AI and society. Google might fund it with generous prize money.
This whole idea may seem dumb but it represents exactly the analysis that must be done to combat cheating. Why not make it fun by doing it in public? Otherwise it must be done in private, perhaps in the university setting, in a limited way, and destined to be too little too late. I say blast through the mess with a full-on assault on cheating with a public exposure of the whole business. We are entering the cyborg era in which normal human life exists in an intimate complex with computing technology, fully embracing of implanted devices. Increasingly, to play non-computer assisted chess will be practically impossible, and itself become the non-human way.
It's actually a fun and effective way to combat cheating. Kind of reminds me of how people will actually hire hackers to try to infiltrate their businesses. It's a way they can truly test their preventative measures. This is kind of similar.
They should a cheating version of professional cycling as well, but only judge it on who wins/survives strapping an orbital rocket booster to their bikes etc.
This would be more helpful to cheaters in the end, because they get to test effective cheating techniques without being banned for it
Worst possible idea in any sports history.
It's like a irl example of chess, and Magnus just put Niemann into check.
lol
Magnus wants to mate :)
Low rated player thinking a pawn on a2 is giving check to the king on e4
Magnus lawyer speaks for himself while Hans lets the chess do the talking
PS: I have a duck video, a chicken video, a video where i am begging for money on Twitter, a walking video, a video where i am playing with my nuts. A short with a blog. A Naruto Arena video... Also a patreon
Soundtrack to this is Busta Rhymes "Woo ha, woo ha, I got you all in check."
5:12 “There’s no other actual answer to all this.”
I could think of one reason that Hans doesn’t give permission, assuming Hans is innocent (which isn’t clear yet):
“No Magnus, I’m not going to agree not to sue you for defaming me so that you can openly defame me.”
you are misunderstanding the situation.
@@miked2205 No that is pretty much it. Magnus has publicly accused Hans and destroyed his reputation without any proof of his claims. Hans has said he would sue if Magnus doesn't stop.
If Hans is innocent then there is no proof that Magnus has that would prove he cheated, just more defamation. So why would he give him permission to continue to defame him?
Obviously now if Hans is guilty and Magnus has definitive proof, then he wouldn't want that to be shared either. The thing is however is that if Magnus has proof, he doesn't need to worry about a lawsuit.
The fact that he is worried about being sued if he shares more itself proves he doesn't have proof.
@@EF-wy3di No, first of all he didn’t defame him legally. He said what he *believes* is the case.
Secondly, even though Hikaru explained this weirdly, he OBVIOUSLY isn’t asking Hans “hey promise me you won’t sue me so I can make *definitive* statements about you cheating without proof”.
There’s something else going on. There’s clearly some information/data out there that Magnus is aware of that Hans has OR Magnus for some reason needs his permission to discuss, that shows whether he’s innocent or not (and clearly Magnus feels is shows he’s a cheat). Has nothing to do with Magnus just wanting to be able to make definitive statements without proof and not get sued. That’s nonsensical.
@@EF-wy3di where does Magnus even say he’s worried about being sued? That’s just hikaru talking. This was clearly well thought out by Magnus. If he was worried he wouldn’t have said anything at all. Again, nonsensical.
@@miked2205 Defaming has nothing to do with what you believe. It has to do with it what you said is true or not.
What information or data? Exactly why do you think it exists? Because of what Magnus is implying without proving. Aka defamation.
Chess speaks for itself
Cause I can’t explain the lines I played although I play +97% often
Magnus played 47% against Hans lol dudes just throwing a fit unless he brings actual evidence rather than using his character gives the whole "you are maya higa" vibe
@@Risinqq cope hans cheated on the past 20 times lmao
good one
@@Risinqq if your opponent is making precise moves then your accuracy goes down.
@@Risinqq "Magnus played 47% against Hans lol dudes just throwing a fit unless he brings actual evidence rather than using his character gives the whole "you are maya higa" vibe"--
Just like you claimed of Magnus, bring actual evidence he is "just throwing a fit" instead of having come to his conclusions this through logic and reasoning.
Since you are not a master of thinking, you probably never considered that he could be playing less than optimal moves to see how Hans would react to them.
Very weak statement. No evidence. Magnus comes away looking for an excuse as to why he was upset by Hans. How did Hans cheat OTB?
How did Hans cheat against Magnus in Sinquefield ?
The simplest answer is that he new Magnus was prepping the g3 line. Or has this be discredited?
@@otherkorean as Hikaru said, it seems that Magnus’ middle paragraph is talking about critical decisions throughout the whole game though, not the opening prep.
He had a butt plug.
He installed stockfish in his arse
Its funny, during the interviews, Hans was asked who his coach is. First he wanted to say it, but decided then to back off :)
Is it the cheater Kramnik?
Why is he not saying anything? Because this tweet was posted AN HOUR AGO. Jesus christ, man, give him time
10 100%+ ? bruh why are people even wondering if he cheated?
Innocent until proven guilty. I mean if he had proof he would have given it if it was definitive. sounds like he is just suspicious. But I am afraid that Magnus is going to use his status to strong arm hans out of the competitive chess community whether hans is innocent or guilty of cheating in the tournament
If you need definitive proof to accuse someone then a lot of criminals will go by without punishment. Getting definitive proof isn't easy and often isn't found by the accuser but by the law enforcement. There first need to be clues and evidence to which then lead to an investigation.
Surely you don't just ignore it if you hear loud children screaming everyday in your neighbor's house? Would you rather report them to the police for an investigation or just say it's not definitive proof?
@@coldheaven2584 (face palm) that's why you call the cops because you dont have definitive proof. Yes our society runs on the assumption innocent until proven guilty. Do you know that is why I cant accuse people blantonly
New chess term for cheaters: Enhansed
CAN WE PLEASE MAKE FUN OF THE LEAKED PREP THEORY PEOPLE
What if Carlsen was making a chess move by accusing him?
That’s what I think.
What if at the Sinquefeld Cup, Magnus played moves which only had one good but unnatural reply from Black just to see if Hans would play it and Hans did. Magnus was upset not because he lost, but his suspicions were confirmed.
Do you even play chess?
No but seriously?
if that was possible to do, wouldn't everyone do moves like that? and if everyone does moves like that, wouldn't people catch up to it and find the "one good but unnatural reply from black". Maybe even give it a name like "internuclear attack helicopter ballistic french declined putin counter gambit"
@@Fred-tz7hs 🤣
We're resorting now to baseless speculation that may indicate magnus isnt a petty sore loser. Well done maggie👍
@@AlcyonEldara now it's confirmed he cheated, how you feel to be wrong?
It’s illogical to expect Hans to prove a negative. Once cannot “prove” one didn’t cheat, the burden is ALWAYS on the accuser. Magnus’ statement said nothing of substance, so the ball is still in Magnus’ court.
Magnus’ behavior is unconscionable (including impacting monetary prizes of other entrants in these tournaments).
I think you missed the point. No one was expecting Hans to prove anything. Hikaru explained that Magnus is waiting for Hans to respond and give him the go-ahead, so he doesn't get sued by saying anything he shouldn't.
I think it's time for Hans to really "stick up" for himself
He literally already did and the official arbiters took his side and said there was no cheating
@@kylezo woooooosh
Seriously?!?! He has to prove himself innocent? It is entirely on the accuser to demonstrate guilt, good Lord I would NEVER want any of you people on my jury....smh
@@kylezo the arbiters said they couldn't detect cheating, but they can't say there was no cheating. Director General of FIDE confirmed citing Ken Regan that they cannot detect occasional sophisticated cheating. Ken Regan has been clinging to pride trying to make his model sound complete, but critical moves and selective moves detection was never part of his main model. In fact, it was a limitation in his model that he had to address. The way he phrased it confused laymen to think his model covers selective move cheating too. The guy is too prideful and he's not a real researcher, he's a mathematician and an associate professor of computer science. he's not really doing proper research methods or ethics, nor are his papers critically reviewed by peers. he's just a smart guy with a hobby in detecting chess cheaters. his phrasing has confused so many people, but Director General of FIDE clearly admitted Ken Regan cannot detect occasional sophisticated cheaters. Ken Regan himself has admitted years ago his methods for detecting selective moves cheating are untested. Now in 2022, FIDE General still says he can't detect them. Ken Regan is so misleading in interviews even now making it sound like his model's got everything covered.
but anyway, it doesn't matter if hans cheated against magnus. remember magnus merely needs to know hans had been repeatedly cheating right up to until before their match, regardless of whether hans cheated in their actual match. that is enough to withdraw from an ex-cheater if you believe they were still a cheater right before your match. as GMs have stated (and done before), if you can't catch someone, you can still not play them based on suspicion. they always had the right to forfeit, but they just don't cause they can't afford a loss.
@@Viewer13128 I don't think anybody made claims to the contrary, this is just a TH-cam comment that claims to know more than modern regulatory bodies. Kind of laughable imo. Everyone is an expert on the internet.
I absolutely love how Hikaru always puts the last pressure on everybody and isn't afraid to state his honest opinion. He said what Magnus couldn't and does an extremely good job at communicating the situation as a whole (and he has been spot on in the last few weeks). Props to Hikaru for that
But his opinion is wrong. You seem to agree, so you like what he said and praise him. You have the same wrong opinion.
Objectively Hikaru is being malicious and should be sued.
@@Fred-tz7hs His opinion is his opinion. It can be unjust, unfair, but it can't be wrong.
@@Fred-tz7hs stay mad 🤣 you can’t really sue someone for their opinion, or win if you do
If Magnus had definitive evidence Hans cheated he would have no need for permission to release it. Whatever supposed evidence he has must be baseless and he is afraid of legal repercussions of he were to run with it.
Hans Niemann IS a cheater. That's undisputable. The only questions are how often and how recently.
No questions to cheater, just ban for live
Carlsen seems to be *trying* to get the ball out of his court by presenting Niemann with an impossible dilemma.
Carlsen is getting the ball out of his court by presenting as little evidence he can, evidence that proves nothing, like "he looked distracted" or "he didn't seem worried about the game." Forgive me for paraphrasing. Niemann is 19. It is completely normal for a nineteen year old to not be perfectly professional, or be thinking about a game while not always looking at the board.
Not only that, but the dilemma the Carlsen put Niemann into with this letter is one where there is no option that benefits Niemann. Either he puts his reputation into Carlsen's hands, or he does not and suffers the consequences of looking like a cheater.
Again, Niemann is 19, and to be in a situation where people are watching to determine your guilt in a court of public opinion must be quite stressful for Niemann.
This kid has history of cheating. AND NOW ... These are the consequences
Guys Hans story is that he live with his mother and he love electronics and programming so much
So in my opinion I think that he for sure made something like engine inside himself or in his eyes idk but he is not Normal in his way he plays
And he is acting weird in Normal life like talking and his face reaction
Soooo.... no proof. Got it. Bye Magnus!
Me watching this video speaks for itself
Former prosecutor for Miami and Orlando here …. Asking for a promise not to sue is something no attorney will ever agree to …. the accuser always has the burden proof. Meet your burden Magnus.
He doesnt need to as Hans would be disinvited from tournaments. So if Hans wants players to play against him, its in his best interest for him to let Magnus put all ifnormation out in the open. If not we can confirm there is a lot more that is suspicious in his play
But what would an innocent man say?
As former UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL, your statement is a load of rubbish!
@@pvstar1323 sure, this is nothing like legal world works-which has been forged with 400 years experience. But in the fantasy chess world: innuendo, speculation and conjecture is sure good enough 🤠
You can't take the word of an admitted cheater seriously. He claims he only cheated twice in his life, which is probably the only two times he was caught red handed. It's like asking a criminal in prison if they are innocent, hint, they will all say they didn't do it except that one time they were caught on camera. This is why it is better to never cheat at all, in this case you won't have to worry about accusations. Kids out there, don't cheat, lie, or steal.
Yeah Hans of course is a target to be suspicious of, however Magnus Carlson definitely played a terrible game in his match against Hans. There really needs to be evidence because it looks like Hans just took advantage of the many blunders Carlson made. At least from a game review.
@@cotacachi12 I think Magnus played terribly on purpose to bait extremely unlikely moves for Hans to take
@@blatantslander I dunno about that, but that's an interesting thought. To me it seemed that Carlson threw out some moves in the opener that were a little less common and unusual, which allowed Hans to take the initiative as Black, Castle first and capitalize on it. Then Carlson got suspicious that he was prepared to challenge his own strange moves so well. Because Hans didn't really have that many strange moves but he responded to Carlsons atypical moves correctly. Then Carlson tried to go for obvious trades but Hans used those moments to pressure other pieces.
@@cotacachi12 no way that a chess world champion blunders so much like that!😱
@@icyv6018 it's not typical but even engines suggest Carlsons playing was extremely poor in his match against Hans
Exactly what I was thinking
0.0 ik you
How is the ball in Hans's court? How can he prove a negative?
he can give Magnus permission to say whatever he wants...or refuse to and live with the cloud of suspicion forever.
This reminds me of Lance Armstrong. For a long time people were suspicious but can't actually prove anything. I am going to trust the intuition of the guy who is the World Champion and can beat a dozen people blindfolded. If he senses something is amiss...it is probably amiss.
Cancel culture is alive and well in chess world… not good 😢
4:41 "If Hans doesn't give permission, it's very clear, isn't it? [that he cheated]." Not necessarily - from Niemann's perspective, he might just be thinking: Why would I give anyone permission to spread falsehoods without repercussions?
Unless its a literal recording of him making incriminating remarks?
Exactly. Hans has zero incentive to do this. Anything he says will be twisted into calling him a cheater, regardless of whether or not he is guilty. The problem is if he doesn't allow it, people will say that's proof of guilt. Classic zugzwang.
Neiman's career is on the line here. He can keep quiet and not be invited to any elite events in which Magnus participates. Neiman has all the incentive in the world to come clean or forget about chess as a career.
@@MrSupernova111 and you’ve just laid out Hans’ slander case against Mangus. All these people thinking this statement protects Magnus are blinded by their bias.
@@sdunigan06 . The one blinded here is you. Hans is a cheater. That's a fact. No one has a legal obligation to invite Hans to "invite only" events. If you organize a chess event at your house and declare it an "invite only" event you can't be sued for choosing who to invite. Get your facts together.
My opinion is if a player is caught cheating in the past, they should be barred from competition moving forward because cheaters do relapse and it’s in the interest of integrity.
Are you dum? He was a minor you pdf file
PS: I have a duck video, a chicken video, a video where i am begging for money on Twitter, a walking video, a video where i am playing with my nuts. A short with a blog. A Naruto Arena video... Also a patreon
Once a cheater, always a cheater.
Hikaru the type of dude to say not talking to the police means you are guilty
Magnus played one of his worst games in years and the opponent happened to be Niemann. Not even the World Champion can play perfectly in every game he ever plays. Maybe Magnus was playing below his level and Hans was playing at his own level or slightly higher. That's all it would take for this to happen.
You’re right to remain silent should not be taken as a sign of guilt. Though I agree that he should allow Magnus to show what he has.
No but if he isn't willing to let MC or others share what they know then that is suspicious and since we will probably never get hard evidence it would do his reputation well to allow what is out there to come to light. Unless he knows it's really bad in which case not giving him the benefit of the doubt is deserved.
he cant get sued for releasing evidence. its not that magnus has evidence its just that magnus cant put out his unfiltered opinion without getting sued
No no no. Truth is an absolute defence against libel or slander. If Magnus would have some actual facts then there would be no need for this trickery. Basically Magnus wants Hans to give him a right to slander without having to prove anything.
If you are confident and honest about your skill in something, you should welcome scrutiny. You have nothing to hide if your talent is legitimate.
@@volodyanarchist I mean Mangus can easily just say whatever he wants anyways. Its not like the "slander" would ever hold up in court anyways because stating your opinion that you think someone cheated can never be considered slander.
The issue is that he knows Hans or someone close to him will probably sue him regardless of if its a legit case or not and thats a pain in the ass. Hell, Hikaru said he was already getting legal threats and stuff too.
You can sue people without a legit case. Magnus can go around and tell everyone he thinks hans is a cheater and say whatever he wants. Its never going to be taken seriously in court because to prove Slander, you need way more than "this guy said a mean thing about me and I dont like it".
This is especially true because Hans would not only have to prove he is in fact innocent and isnt a cheater in order to win a slander/libel case, but he ALSO need to prove Mangus has malicious intent AND he needs to prove tangible damage to his reputation as a result of what Magnus said.
These are all very high bars to actually prove in a legal setting. Hans would never ever win that case.
The reason Magnus still wants permission though is because if given, then Hans cant even really TRY to sue then. It saves him the massive headache of Hans suing just to spite him even if he would lose the case anyways.
The next OTB that Hans is in will be interesting. If he is cheating (which there is currently no proof of), would he be confident enough in its undetectability to try anyway, knowing that the event may have the strongest security a chess tournament has ever had?
If he is cheating, but elects not to during that event, he may be so markedly worse that it's noticeable. Then again, he could play just as brilliantly. The argument against cheating would gain much more traction in the event of the latter, but as referenced before, there will - regardless - be speculation that he's still somehow doing it.
yeah but dont u think now with so much pressure over him that everylittle pawn move being scrutinized he is never gonna have that focus to play a good game no
So you do consider a 100% accuracy in mutiple games from a 2600 player no proof.......right.
@@omedonnie it's proof enough for me, but FIDE certainly doesn't seem to think so
@@onwingsofshadow FIDE, like Magnus, also has to be very cautious here. Lets see what Hans will do now.
I don't know why people wouldn't trust Magnus' judgement on this. He's been beaten before, he'll be beaten again, and never had any ill will one way or the other. So why would he be so salty toward hans for no reason? It seems to me be an unjustifiable conclusion to say hans is not cheating based solely on that. And just to top it all off: once a cheater, always a cheater; your character is what you do when nobody's watching, and hans cheats when nobody's watching, that means he is a cheater, whether he cheated in the game against magnus or not.
"once a cheater, always a cheater" is just a stupid saying. It makes you sound dumb and ignorant. Magnus has Aspergergers so I would not trust his skills on reading others emotions.
i mean there is a saying goes “innocent until proven guilty” and lots of people abide by that, but i dont. i agree w you. honestly if some girl says she was sexually assaulted even if there was no proof, if ur actually a decent guy you would side w the girl even if she may be js falsely accusing
@@shualelglad you're not a lawyer
You're basically using the Keemstar defense here "If they're innocent, then why don't they come onto my show?"
People don't fact check, and if the number one guy puts out a piece saying Hans is cheating then people aren't gonna read it, they'll see the title of the vid or article and just assume thats fact. You saying "I don't know why he wouldn't just let them say whatever" is a headass statement and absolutely ignorant.
He put out a statement saying he's clean, then it's not on him to prove he's innocent. Its on Magnus to prove he cheated. A lack of a statement isn't proof of cheating. This is a trend going on where people are "guilty until proven innocent" and I won't stand for it.
if Magnus had evidence that clearly proves Hans was cheating during their game (or elsewhere), why should he have to wait on Hans to say anything about legal consequences? then, Magnus would win a potential court case anyway, right?
Hans should not be the one delivering evidence to prove his innonce (that is almost impossible). That must be done by the accuser.
I think Magnus set him up by playing bad moves to see if Hans would play human moves.
Hans doenst owe anyone anything.. saying if he says nothing it is basically admitting to cheating is just ignorant.. everyone is already breaking down every single game the man has ever played.. your Magnus bias clearly clouding your judgement