Should Indie Devs Make Sequels?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ก.ย. 2024
- Doing something different today want to work on some more essay style stuff so I hope you enjoy. Also for anyone wanting to watch the GDC talks I use in this vid and some more here you go.
Darkest Dungeon: A Post Mortem: • Darkest Dungeon: A Des...
Dark Souls is the Ikea of Games: • Why Dark Souls Is The ...
Level Design Workshop: • Level Design Workshop:...
Why are you still reading finish my video and the leave ya goober.
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You fell for my trap to click my video Muhahah
We only hear to silk in the despair of this wait
@@rustybiscuit398 i fell for it willingly thats where we are
Fun fact.
Dwarf Fortress was technically a sequel with the full title: _Slaves to Armok, God of Blood II: Dwarf Fortress_
That is a fun fact! Dwarf Fortress is on the list of games I want to get right now looks like a fun game!
the saddest in thing about this video is that he bought darkest dudgeon on epic
Devs should be allowed to do wahtever they want.
Agreed
@@rustybiscuit398as long as they make good games that’s worth our time and money.
Especially supergiant@@rustybiscuit398
Remember a lot of devs do this because they couldn't fit everything they wanted for the first game in it due to time or budget constraints, so with a full budget and enough time they can now make what they believe is the definitive experience. I very much believe silksong will be better that hollow knight. Heck hades 2 came out in early access and I prefer it over hades 1. Also I find that I'm really not a critical person. I quite liked talos principle 2 even though it was less puzzly, my only complaint with it was difficulty and star puzzles, and it seems like the plan is to add some major difficulty in the dlc, which literally just got teased like yesterday.
Hades 2 feels more modern and polished despite being unfinished
Supergiant is in the same position as Fromsoft and Larian where their releases are evolutions of their core formula regardless of whether they are sequels or completely new IPs
Still think silksong is gonna be sick af and I definitely want more of the first game!
Silksong is almost certainly going to outshine HK. It will solidify the foothold of TC in the gaming. Community.
As an indie game developer that has released a few sequels: there's no way to win. If it's too similar, there will be complaints, if it's too different, there will be complaints. And players will be in one of those sides.
Not saying sequels can't be successful though! our sequels sold better that their previous games, but there's no way to please everyone, and that's alright.
Then there is also people who will complain if you decide to not make a sequel as well. But as long as the devs are happy with it though Ill be happy for them.
Rusty talking about Risk of Rain? what a suprise :O
I just think it’s neat
DONT ENCOURAGE THEM, you hear me, we NEED it. Do not give silksong any reason to not exist
If they can make it good and the community wants it, why not?
As a solo indie game dev myself. I plan on making many sequels to my games, because they are designed to be a series belonging to a story universe from the start instead of fully stand alone titles. If they end up successful or not later doesn't really matter to me as I don't create my works for the mere sake of money, I create for the sake of characters & story world that matters to me. One bigger game project I am working on I even been considering breaking it up into few episodes so I can put them out sooner instead of waiting extra years just to have the the entire story arc released at once. I am aware gamers prefer to have finished titles, and releasing stories episodically could hurt sales... but some compromises are better then nothing IMO.
That’s great to hear I hope your projects are both fulfilling and successful. I tried hard to make it a point in the video that I do support and encourage creatives to work on whatever they wish and that if there is a reason for the to keep telling stories in their world even if it’s just cause they want to thats fantastic! Some of my most anticipated games and books right now are going to be sequels!
@@rustybiscuit398 Yeah I didn't assume you were against sequels. I just wanted to share bit of my own view on it from a personal level.
A sequel is just a game.
It gets rated based on how well it competes with similar games.
I've played enough of the "bad" ones to think it's not a bad game, it's devs/publishers that phone it in.
- ENDLESS Dungeon for example has a great concept, but if you play it enough to understand the game never got that deep critical evaluation.
- Darkest Dungeon devs took a shortcut with that roguelike map. There's no other way to describe it.
- Almost everything open-world is the same game with different skins and SLIGHTLY different combat animations.
On the other hand you have success coming in identical circumstances:
- Helldivers 2 changed the genre, became a bit more clunky and definitelly not what players of original expected. Nobody cares because the sequel stands on its own feet.
- Fenyx rising has unique combat and devoted a lot of attention to making world location interesting. They used a template, but they modified it enough where it doesn't feel like assassin's creed.
With darkest dungeon, it's biggest appeal in my eyes is the balance it had and the creativity it lent you as you progressed, watching my team builds change from safe to more unique, getting comfortable using more unconventional characters as I got trinkets and understood the game's systems was and still is the best part about it
Personally, I find it hard to take DD1 fan's negative reception of the game seriously because...
1- dd1 is ridiculously mod-able, and in turn has a large amount of mods that essentially act as dlcs for the game, the people complaining on steam literally have an endless amount of dd1 at their disposal
2- a large amount of criticisms thrown at this game are less criticisms about the game on its own merits but dd1 fans crying that it's not dd1
Yeah I do feel similarly. I think DD1 was partly a woefully under-explored genre, that being management sims. While it's a shame for those who want more management sims that DD2 isn't one, DD2 is honestly a much better balanced game. DD1 is had about the right amount of depth for a single playthrough, with an extremely repetitive gameplay loop, and I think DD2 was incredible in how much additional depth they added while cutting out all of the repetition.
While the progression style for DD2 is more generic due to being a roguelike rather than a management sim, that doesn't mean that the game is any more generic. Nobody else has successfully done Darkest Dungeon combat. They had to change either the campaign format or the combat, or they'd just be making the same game, right? Perhaps they should have just made "Darkest Dungeon but in 3D" like Risk of Rain did 😂 (it's just a joke, I get the point of the vid, although I disagree)
@@kitsunin4690DD in 3d? Wait! Its 3d!? am I stupid for not noticing this?
This is the biscuits of Silk Song Videos.
It honestly depends. If the story is so big that one game won't cover it then yeah, a sequel makes sense.
yeah why not?
Il be fr, i just saw the video and thought it could be intersting to watch. I liked the video and its quality and i just took a glance at your sub count and i was suprise such a small channel makes good content like that. You my good sir, have just gain a sub. Just felt like saying ^^
Thank you for the kind words I’m happy you enjoyed the video!
i think the change of gameplay on darkest dungeon 2 is for the better because a lot of the time there are games where a sequel will just simply wont be good having the same gameplay, also darkest dungeon is already a game with a finish being it defeating the worlds heart darkest dungeon 2 goes for a world expanding aspect who will be infantized more with the kingdoms dlc, also i think that the roguelike genre always fitted with darkest dungeon alot and i am a sucker for roguelikes.
also i should mention than the principle thing that got dd2 a worse recievement than the first is because the players have as you said their own idea of what should a dd2 should be like, hell even people talk about black reliquary being the the real dd2 but that is because people are trapped in the past an they dont se all the things the game achieved did well and even got better than the first, and that dosent only aply to dd2
tim cain has a video where he talks about why he doesn't like to make sequels, which is also an opinion i've heard attributed to some other famous game developers i like. in the vid, he talks about how sequels dilute the IP
Sounds interesting ill have to check that video out!
Many indie devs found out the hard way that one modest hit doesn't guarantee success for the next game. So can't blame them for playing it safe.
This is high quality. For the King is one of my fav games; absolutely crushed my soul that I did not feel as strongly about the sequel. I liked it, but did not love it like I did the first one. Glad you pointed it out in this vid.
For the king is great! It’s one of my favorite co-op games I haven’t tried the sequel yet but I hope I enjoy it when I get around to it
I personally dont mind that Risk of Rain 2, Hades 2, Helldivers 2, Poly Bridge 3, Bloons td 6, Magica 2, Ori and the Will of the Whisps and Deltarune exist.
I dunno about you.
I'm sorry but the silksong segment is weird, no one asked for a sequel, Team Cherry got quite literally carried away after realizing hornet would not fit in the tunnels of hallownest. They have no one but themselves to blame for building expectations that they set up.
No need to apologize its good feedback! Thank you for watching and commenting
I Reilly likeed dd1 but dd2 become one of my favorite game of all time
Is it because of the balancing? I can see why.
@@joseurbanos.domingo6344 hm?
If it's an expansion on gameplay and story, and not just a shifty cashgrab, I think it's fine.
I feel most sequels get less attention than original titles, partially because of a feeling of needing to "catch up".
If you hadnt done the research to know most Final Fantasy games werent connected, seeing a big old 16 on the box might just put you off if you’ve never played any before
Not to mention if people tried, or werent interested in the original, many are unlikely to give the benefit of the doubt and try a sequel.
Heck some sequels are recommended over the original. How many players skipped Borderlands 1 because they were told 2 was way better in every way and they werent missing much
nice video, keep making them and youll certainly blow up :D
I rewatched the Silksong section 3 times because I didn't understand what you actually wanted to say about it. In the context of the rest of the script, it seems odd. You stated that Hollow Knight existed, then they announced a sequel, and people were massive fans so they are excited for the sequel. And then you move on. The end of the statement is apparently that peoples passion... pressures people into making sequels without wondering if they need one? I mean that sincerely, am I getting that right?
Thats the whole segment. Center focus of your thumbnail and that's your entire segment.
There's a lot of implications here that are just strange. The video is about whether or not they should be made, and the thumbnail baits the question of if sequels are "Bad". So you show this without giving a statement yourself about it so I kind of need to guess your intentions. Are you saying Silksong only exists because fans pressured them? That Team Cherry is doing it only from obligation? Is your statement to Team Cherry that they shouldnt have started making one because they were... pressured? If thats the statement, it wouldn't make sense. What evidence is there that they were pressured? Is there an implicaiton of lack of passion on the developer's end? Well maybe you're not saying that. I don't know, your script didn't specify.
Are you saying fans are entitled so they... wait.... im so lost. Later in the vid you specify a comment about making a sequel that will be financially successful. So is the SS segment saying that its a good thing because they're going be guaranteed financial success? Or that its a bad thing because expectations are so high that they wont achieve them? Maybe thats it, maybe you're saying that they shot themselves in the foot with expectations, so its taking too long to make, therefore, um... uh, therefore don't make sequels if your first game would create a fanbase of people ravenous for a sequel and raising pressure upon yourself? Im really trying to grasp at straws here, I clicked on your opinion piece video and you didn't actually say anything at all about the apparent highlight of your video.
I mean by the time youre talking about people often saying things like the first installments always having more heart, youre still playing SS trailer footage. Are you saying SS has no heart? Or that its doomed to be received poorly by its audience because theyre going to be underwhelmed or believe that SS lost its identity? Like what literally actually are you trying to convey to me here?
"Really all this video is a rant about why developers should think about WHY theyre making a sequel instead of just making one because the first one did good". Okay. Okay so... alright well, okay so your first two examples make sense with this angle right? Right? Darkest Dungeon 2, you make the argument of missing sight of what the fans wanted. Then you show Risk of Rain, and show that fans liked the sequels because its what they wanted. Okay, so its not a video about obligations at this point, its about considering whether or not your sequel is the right type of sequel. Which is such a different statement. If DD2 was what fans wanted, would you have even used them as a point. If the whole video as you said in the end was about not making things out of obligation used DD as your first example, are you therefore saying that they lost touch with their audience because they felt obligated, but if they had made a sequel that was in touch, it would no longer have been out of obligation? How do you account for sequels made out of obligation that happen to succeed? And sequels made out of passion that didnt? Both ruin your apparent argument. Or what i think your argument is. The script is so vague.
So with those franchises as precedent leading into silksong, rule of threes, i expect segment 3 to be like the first 2 that had a pattern. So now you talk about a game that isnt out yet, and I have to assume, because of the previous segments, this is some discussion about whether or not silksong will stay in touch with its audience. I think.
And i think maybe, youre also implying Team Cherry did not think about why theyre making one. Or maybe youre saying they did think about why theyre making one. Maybe the reason people are excited is because they see that it appears to be more of what they want. No, maybe youre saying the reason people are excited is because they just want any kind of sequel because they believe sequels have to happen.
Look man, if you have to even write a line at 11:45 where you say "I dont know" to like, the main question of your video. Then like, WHY did YOU make this video? Its ironic, and i dont mean to insult you, but how much did YOU actually think about what you were making with this video, in which you ask devs to consider why they bother making something? Why did you make me watch 13 minutes of someone saying "well i dunno seems to work for some people not for others, i dunno". And then ask me to like and subscribe for more like this, as in like, sequels. More content from you where you apparently will think about why you make more videos.
I apologize for my harshness, but your comment replies to other imply you want this kind of feedback, and if you want to make your voice heard in the future, ask yourself what your voice is. Ask what do you actually want to say, and optimize your content to that aim. Because when you make a video like this that amounts to, "well i just sort of made it, and people know what silksong is so i guess i had to have a silksong segment in it", then you should take another look at what you just asked the indie devs you criticize to do, in this very video.
Yeah I had to drop out of the video early because there was a whole lot of yapping about nothing
I’ve played all of the games mentioned, and just like you said, Hollow knight was my first Metroidvania (the second being a really cool game called Worldless) and I love it to death. I’m just patiently waiting for silksong to come out eventually since I’ve got a lot of stuff to play.
Same I want Silksong to come out but I have a bunch of stuff to keep me busy until it does.
if your game is a hit you should make a sequel as a gamedev. The risk is WAY lower and you alredy have the infraestrutcure to make something, reuzing code and assets, you are the ideal developer for that kind of product now on. Sequels sell better than original content. They sell less than the original HIT that made is the basis of the sequel but WAY more than a original ideia normaly
Yes, it builds and IP and a brand new
Here's a question: do you have a REASON to make that sequel besides just making more money? If it's to improve on the mistakes as last time, or put a new twist on the formula, or anything that isn't "more of the same" that could be covered by DLC, it could be worth doing. The nightmare for me though, would be, "ok the original is shipped, time to start working on the sequel." That isn't enough time to let it breathe, or for you to learn new things you can apply to it and come at it from a fresh perspective, or even to get good, REFINED feedback from players.
10:55 I clapped when I saw the thing!🤣
I'm still working myself through it...
Curse of the Moon 1 is so good.. Too bad that the sequel is frustratingly difficult to a degree even the NES Castlevanias weren't (aside from the lack of a save feature in the first game..)
sure why not. They found a formula that people like and if people want more of that, then that's a win/win. Sequels are quite the risk though as people will without a doubt compare it to what you made and what came before it. If it doesn't live up to the hype of the first thing, you could set yourself up for failure.
I say that sequels are great if there is a story that needs to be told. I say sequels are great if you think you can enhance the experience of what you put out prior.
Sequels are also great, because you can really gauge if a studio has lost the plot or not. It really helps you be able to make a judgement on the intentions of the studio. That studio might have made a good game before, but have they been tainted? Have they been corrupted? You can easily get your answer by seeing their next project and if it's a sequel, it's easier to see, since you already have a reference.
Honestly, you should have brought up BOTW and TOTK as a comparison when it comes to sequels people criticize.
Going into player expectations would've been a heck of a tangent for this video but its a great topic. Mortismal Gaming actually put out a great video the same day as me on the subject. Thanks for the well put together comment!
I think almost all of the most successfull indies are showing something new. And sequels just a more polished copycats.
When I played for example Subnautica it was a one time experience, playing the sequel was great but mostly the same stuff.
Games like Shovel Knight and Dead Cells managed it better, they updated their games constantly with more content, so I kept playing them for a longer time.
I also like what the steam world games did, same universe different genre, so it will never be boring.
Let people make their bread
My biggest issue with sequels is when they make the mechanics and the overall feel of the game in a different direction. Final Fantasy Tactics is a masterpiece with its music, art style, characters and world; it's so engaging. Whereas Tactics Advanced/A2 is just a PG rated version with unsatisfying, stripped down mechanics.
Square is back on track with Triangle Strategy, and I feel as if a sequel to it would polish it up to be on par with its PS1 predecessor if they improve upon what they have, rather than trying to "simplify it"
Yeah nothing is worse for an RPG with good writing and characters to have a watered down sequel. Last of Us 2 isn't and RPG but has that issues in spades.
That's your point of view and I can understand it, but I feel so lucky that I played the advance duology first, so I could experience a more high fantasy and livelier version of Ivalice with more flexibility on the job System before trying the first one, I really don't vibe political dramas and grim fantasy is something that I consume in small doses because those settings tend to bore me, at least war of the lions is a very good game, good enough to not care that the story let me down.
Solid video !
It seems sequels can be a double edged sword
Of course when something is great or even good we want more of that, but if making a 2nd game means you lose artistic integrity or the desire to even create this project than you should probably scrap it, no matter how much cash it’ll rake in!
Well made vid, love the style, keep making more. >100 subs is not nearly enough.
Working on it!
I don't your taking the fact that reviews stack over time. For a fair comparison you'd have to take the amount of time the sequel has been out and compare it to the original at the same time in it's lifespan. Right now you're comparing the height of a tree to the height a seedling without taking into account growth time.
That’s completely fair I could used a better metric for comparison. Honestly reviews weren’t even my first pick but they were the most
Publicly available that also feedback from real people and weren’t just a number like copies sold I could find.
Loved the video!
And Wargroove 2 was probably the saddest indie sequel I’ve seen.
Happy you enjoyed the video. I haven’t played Wargroove yet it’s on my list tho
Great video! Looking forward to more!
Sry to comment on something else than the topic, but there's something wrong with your microphone that makes it a bit hard to listen to. Like a buzz every time you speak.
Yeah there’s a slight buzzing from my pc for some reason I’ll be sure to fix it in the next video
Have a sub. Great video.
It can go good or bad. Risk of rain 2 is Imo more fun than the original but axiom verge 2... Idk what they did there didn't liked it at all.
Great video got a sub
The issue isn't sequels, it's managing expectations. This video didn't consider examples of spiritual successors done by the same indies but I would wager they suffer the same problem of "first kiss" syndrome whereby your established playerbase now compares similar games to whatever first introduced them to a genre or particular gamedev's work.
That in itself sets the incredibly difficult task of shattering the rose-tinted glasses your players are wearing and the only way to do that is accurately identify what everyone has fond memories of and improve on what they DON'T remember or anything they saw as a low point without your changes encroaching on the beloved features.
Darkest Dungeon 2 was an example of when the devs failed to identify why their players loved the original while Rusk of Rain 2 shows that sometimes all it takes is a change in presentation which doesn't make any fundamental changes to the original gameplay.
What about Helldivers 2?
Another commenter mentioned audio issues, but it sounds like your voice is wavering in pickup and depth. Are you turning away from a directional mic while speaking? Makes it difficult to follow along.
I honestly may have been accidentally. I noticed I tended to get quite at the end of sentences as well and I’m working on improving it for my next video.
@@rustybiscuit398 It's better than what I did when I tried doing some recordings. I had my mic backwards, not knowing about directionality. I had to re-record an entire video xD
Nice
Thanks!
Undermine 2 zzzzzzzzz, slay the spire 2 oh ok i guess
I know I saw that Slay the Spire 2 was a thing while writing this and now I'm excited for that.
Counterpoint:
Minecraft started as an indie game and it never needed a sewuel. Perhaps that only applies to single player games. Sequels matter when they bring something new.
Darkest Dungeon 2 turned out to be quite a failure, didn't it... They had to follow the trend and make it yet another roguelike.
Yeah unfortunately it just wasn’t for me. I’m happy for the people who get enjoyment from it though.
Objectively false.
We have review scores and sales numbers showing/proving that it's inarguably not a failure. Don't go projecting your feelings as facts.
great fucking work man, you deserve wayyyyyyyy more views.
That’s you for the kind words
ermmhhm actually u deserve less views