A case for Communism in Pakistan - Dr. Taimur Rahman - Laal - LUMS -
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.พ. 2021
- Dr. Taimur Rahman is a Professor at LUMS, leads the band 'Laal', is the General Secretary of the Mazdoor Kissan Party and a leftist social activist.
Taimur comes on the podcast to make a case for Marxism being the best system of governance for Pakistan. In this deep dive discussion, we discuss how the state of Pakistan can move towards poverty alleviation, escape the debt trap and the state of the organized left in Pakistan.
What is classical Marxism?
Is Communism the answer to our issues?
Is the notion of the state archaic?
Hear us discuss this and more on this week's episode of The Pakistan Experience.
The Pakistan Experience is an independently produced podcast looking to tell stories about Pakistan, and Pakistanis, through the lost art of conversation. We do deep dive long form podcasts to show you the many shades that encapsulate The Pakistan Experience.
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The podcast is hosted by comedian and writer, Shehzad Ghias Shaikh. Shehzad is a Fulbright scholar with a Masters in Theatre from Brooklyn College. He is also one of the foremost Stand-up comedians in Pakistan and frequently writes for numerous publications. He can be found on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and Tinder.
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Prof. Taimur Rehman is an amazing personality. This was long overdue. Thank you for bringing him on.
49:00 Heirachy
55:00 Nation state
1:00:00 misogynistic Aristortel
Anti Democratic plato
1:05:00 cause of creation of state
1:10:00 future of imagined commie Pakistan
1:19:00 state owned industry of commie pak
1:23:00 free market is "failure "
1:43:00 government owned education
1:52:00 scandenevia model
2:02:00 co operative model
2:11:00 argument for state regulations ( great point) anti libertarian argument
2:13:00 Uighur Muslim oppression
2:23:00 religion and communism
2:28:00 Chinese model
2:34:00 Chinese " imperelism"
2:38:00 Korea progress
2:39:30 aurat march
2:50:00 book recommendations
❤❤Z guys juul guys juul guys have hyped used❤❤😢😮😢😢😢juuly😢😢😢😊@@munmunhazarika5247
Gandhi wanted to students to leave their schools and colleges as a form of civil disobedience because the education being provided would be to make them colonial clerks. Tagore vehemently disagreed for the same rationale that mr Rahman gave.
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Gandhi was a deeply problematic and bourgeois thought leader. A colonial agent himself who recruited soldiers for Britain's wars.
@@aunthegeek5788 really. Can you provide evidence.
@@aunthegeek5788 Kuchh bhi? Early on in South Africa he did have problematic views on race but he learnt and evolved
@@aunthegeek5788 and that's how you prove your dumbness. Gandhi agreed to provide Indian soldiers to fight I'm World War bcoz he saw Fascism as a bigger problem.
So nice of you Shehzad to apologise and Mr. Taimur graciously accepted. Well done both of you. Shows how civilised people converse!
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Came to your show because of Taimur, I didn't know we do have a very good podcast.
@@ThePakistanExperience watched the Ishtiaq Ahmad episodes. Phenomenal! One has to have balls of steel and a profound mind to have hours of interactive discussion with academics like him.
Please have another discussion with Dr. Taimur Rehman. Love his breadth of knowledge in politics, history, and philosophy!♥️
Great podcast. Halfway through it and thoroughly enjoying this. Climate activists and leftist social activities should join hands against the capitalist system
You mean Capitalist Climate Activism? Lol what do you want with us?? Go sit in the laps of 'Jordon Peterson' and 'Elon Musk' and 'Bill Gates'.
@@AsadAli-jc5tg she probably doesn't know the history of communism
If you ask me, as an indian, id say pakistan is in dire need of massive land reforms.
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Land reform is a rare domain in which all the ruling class agrees to oppose. Mainstream politicians in the big-three political parties are massive landowners, and they need poor peasants to work on them...so they cannot give up their subjugating powers. Military is notorious for running the biggest land mafia in Pakistan, whether though the biggest housing schemes or the military run agricultural farms. Not to forget they need to distribute thousand of acres every year to their retired and serving personnel. They will have to stop doing if any land reforms takes place. Lastly out mainstream Mullahs consider the land reforms as unIslamic, which simply ends the discussion.
Even in India, we need land reform. Ofcourse in different sense like that happened in Nehru's time. Our land prices are abnormally high, which creates problems for new factories or industries. In China, state owns every land, that's why they gave it at fraction of price for factories.
@@kokuyocamlin07 yeah we also need land refomrs. But china is not a good example to foresee. Cant give up democracy to achieve liberty. Thats a contradiction.
@@zainhasan5165kafiro ke baato m mat aaio
Just started watching it, Dr. Taimur Rahman a guest is everything I could have asked for.
Thank you Shahzad for this podcast.
Edit: Sir Taimur Rahman just converted me to a communist again! New woke/liberal crowd disappointed me so much that I got a bit confused about communism. Thanks to professor Taimur for giving a clear picture of communism and what true leftism is. Enjoyed listening every bit of this podcast.
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I highly recommend reading Michael Parenti.
@@aunthegeek5788 ok I'll give it a try! Thank you.
@@DWAGON1818 I didn't get your question, would you explain?
@@DWAGON1818 I believe state should be secular by all means!
I googled about 76 words only to understand about 30% of the podcast.
Not bad for me still 🤷♀️
I love how he had so much to say , how enthusiastic he is about his philosophy. He must be an amazing teacher.
Thoroughly enjoyed the podcast. The agreements and the differences. Both of you were on the same page, communication was on point.
Are there any middle-ist people as well though? 🤔
I agree. Discovering Shehzad’s podcast has been such a joy and adds so much to my evenings. Absolutely delighted to see such brilliant, well informative and incredibly analytical young minds in Pakistan. This gives me hope for Pakistan!
Funniest compliment ever. Thank you.
Great choice to invite this professor. Dont agree with all of his views but he always have v informative things to share. Just the right thumbnail to see on a weekend
What a delightful and incredibly educational episode! Makes me so happy to see such an enthusiastic, brilliant mind. Taimur was a delight to listen to. If only history coupled with the current affairs was taught like this in easy to understand mix of Urdu and English we would have a far more world aware (as in aware of others’ histories, too) and successful youth. I think we need to see more of him on the show! I’m so glad I found your channel, Shahzad. It is a breath of fresh air. Well done and
Though it is true that modern Scandinavian countries are incredibly resource rich, they're also incredibly imperialist. Their welfare programs are dependant on the exploitation of the global South.
Due to redscare and cold war propaganda, we're quick to dismiss the accomplishments of Socialist states, why would I turn to the Scandinavian model when I have seen the successes of the Russian model which transformed a backward agricultural country to an industrially advanced economy which gave the world's most powerful empire a run for their money and was in space within 30 years, or the successes of Cuba despite the sanctions and embargos, or Thomas Sankara's Burkina Faso, or CHINA.
@@DWAGON1818 hahahahahahaha brother come out from liberal propoganda, all the blaims on Mao was written after his death, even in western media.
@@DWAGON1818 To analyze the success or failure of a revolution, compare it with how the said country was before and after it. Without Mao there wouldn't be a China, and Imperialist powers and feaudal landlords will be sucking away all the resources and labour. Communists had everything to do with it, China has literally eradicated extreme poverty. Famines happen because of natural reasons, perhaps you should learn more about the geographic conditions of China. The only reason anyone would go towards "Democratic Socialism" is because the Imperialist powers aren't as tough on it as they don't threaten their hegemony or Capital, it's woke Capitalism paired with Imperialism. It's a Western White People ideology which doesn't even mean anything, it's a term invented by politically illiterate petty bourgeois is intellectuals. I've written about a lot more than China, you can research more on these subjects as I take it you're not very educated on the topic.
@@DWAGON1818 Mao was only one person lmao, Mao didn't single handedly kill anyone and it's irrelevant really, people are starving in Africa and other places right now because of imperialism and war.
@@DWAGON1818 Read what? Black book of Communism? Cold war propoganda? Taimur Rahman has a video on China, I suggest you go watch it. You lost credibility when you said "cAhMuniSm kiLls pEoPle", the success of China is unparalleled, and you can compare it with that of Pakistan, Neoliberalism and Free Market Capitalism didn't transform China into a super power. I'd prefer not replying to red scare loving radlibs from here on out, I've made my points very clear while yours has been "killed people", and if you notice my original comment I said "successes" of Socialist experiments and states, not failures and mistakes.
@@aunthegeek5788 the only people ‘communism kills’ are fascists. there’s nothing inherently violent about striving for an equal society except for the inconvenient fact that in order to achieve this you have to first get rid of a system built on slavery, genocide, dispossession and exploitation. If you’re using deaths from famine under either Stalin or Mao to discredit communism, then the mere fact that 9 million ppl die each year from hunger in a capitalist world order should be sufficient evidence that this is a failed system we need to move past. Let alone the millions of death attributable to western imperialism which is the very foundation of modern capitalism.
Throughly enjoyed this gem of an episode with Dr. Taimur -
Please please please invite such intellectuals to your show so that people can benefit from such discussions... I thoroughly enjoyed it even thought I strongly disagree on a lot of things with Dr Taimoor
What were the names of the two shows he mentioned?
Enjoyed immensely. Like spellbinding without fully agreeing totally
🙌
Very well discussion
Stephen Kotkin’s writing on history and writings have great relevance to our country today
Prof Taimur Rehman mare pas alfaz nhe hain unki respect k lye outstanding, great, i love and respect him sooooo much
بہت ودھیا
The worst part is we were fooled by Attlee and Churchill in 1947. Jinnah who was probably the worst human being of the last century worked closely with Britain and destroyed India. Now looking forward we should work together and take two actions:
Introspection and understand the problems of Islam.
Create a new federation, USI ( United States of India) consisting of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Srilanka, Afghanistan, Nepal, Bhutan etc.
Wonderful
1:33:22 The most relevant question in Pakistani context.
I have recently stated listening to this podcast and love how Shahzad Shaikh conducts it. I like that he “pushes back “. In our “ Mia baap” society people don’t push back due to fear of lash back as any disagreement is taken as an attack on personality. We just love “ agreeing “ all the time.
Your opening gambit of “ lack of collective joy” is a point well made. Carl young described the phenomena of collective consciousness of human societies and Ekhart Tolle called a collective pessimism as a “ pain body “ - no doubt colonialism has had a profound effect on our psyche and perhaps epigenetics - we are still in a state of collective depression. Nicely done
🙌
I request Shahzad to invite more & more Pakistani icons for such type of discussions 🙏
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@@ThePakistanExperience I would honestly love to see you bring Ayesha Siddiqa on the podcast at some point.
Alternatively: Ali Raza (the Lums professor) whose book Revolutionary Pasts came out a couple of weeks ago would make for a super interesting conversation I’m sure.
@@ThePakistanExperience Call Sanjay Dixit of Jaipur Dialog. India is throwing away yoke of AbraHaramism imposed on it - be it of MohMadism, Christianity, Marxism or CocaCola Wokism
@@salimalvi5178 hahaha... he is good. I watch his show.
@@ThePakistanExperience I am desperately waiting for the next!👍
What a man he is
I would recommend in Andrew Batson's blog to anyone who is interested in Chinese politics.
Wonderful discussion.
Appreciate the intellectual honesty of both the panelists.
Well done Mia Shaizad
🙌
“ It’s his life or his revenge. There is no third choice “ - Nikita Khrushchev 1953
Shehzad's smile at 1:40:44.
How i wish this could've been further extended 😢
Yes true but very progress and educational live Life
in the very first few seconds, Taimur refers to someone Abdul-Baha, (if I heard the name right?) who is or was he?
After the initial hour of shehram’s podcast I came here; I was finding the former, despite the fanfare, vaguely theory-based. This, despite professor’s Rahman’s confrontational manner was a much more rewarding listen; grassroots activism is a different sport altogether and it shows on more than one level. And Shehzad, you played a wonderful, wonderful devil’s advocate. Great episode.
@@ThePakistanExperience bohat taiz ho gai thi knife end pe ......
If you see this podcast in itself then he might come up to you as vaguely theory based, but once put it in the context of his other lectures then it would make more sense,. Hence can justify why he has taken the longer route to explain simple things.
But you also have to appreciate the temperament of this man, as he let Shehzad to be so scrutinous to his arguments, because in the podcast with Ayesha Jalal, which I just saw, Shahzad was very docile. Not even tried to counter question her to some of her claims.
I completely agree with the statement of Prof Tamur Rehman. Education is by far more important than any other intervention. India’s growth is an example of the same. Even with in India look at Kerala and other states where mass education has been the driver of development.
Shukria for this...
Bro finally , I have been waiting sir taimur for a long time .
Sir was my favorite in lums
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کامریڈ تیمور الرحمان نے کیمونزم کا مقدمہ انتہائی مدلل انداز میں پیش کرکے مستند اور لیفٹ کی فرقہ واریت سے بالا مارکسی دانشور ثابت کیا ہے ۔ جس میں سوشل ڈیمو کریسی پر تفصیلی گفتگو کی کمی محسوس ہوئی۔ شہزاد صاحب سے استدعا ہے کہ اس ضمن میں ڈاکٹر صاحب سے مزید نشست کا اہتمام کیا جائے۔
Love you Taimur
We failed to make institutions for every aspect of life instead wants to live in Nostalgia. When ever will eliminate this barrier will remain in same conditions of Political/ Economical/ social.
44:31...how do you pronounce the word? prolodaria?
@@ThePakistanExperience Proletariat
The pawry girl condemning is coming from the collective pschye of pulling others down and never being happy for others. Doesn’t have to do with *joy* and celebration. I reckon. It’s a petty and superficial knee jerk reaction.
P.S. the backdrop is very distracting. Want to have a close look at those black and white photo tiles...
You are intellegent. Thumbs up.
Nice sharing! 🥰
Well done
🙌
i am china and i think communism is the best solution for our country. i support china and i love their system.
From Kashmiri Gate and beyond to Red Fort outer ring road areas, TELEGRAPH and TELEPHONE LINE made the difference b/w the strategy of the Mughals and the British in 1857. Result is before us.
Very thought provoking guftagoo…india laid its developmental foundation in key sectors through state controlled public sector companies - once we developed a solid foundation then state is divesting to private sector except in sensitive areas such as defense nuclear etc - your guest made lot of sense overall in his recommendations 👏👏
The title of this podcast is aptly written, agree or disagree, Taimur Rahman has put a strong case for Communism here. Great discourse once again!
I have just one request to Dr Taimoor Rehman. Please tell us how many people have states killed as compared to private citizens in the last one century or the last two centuries or the last four or five centuries?
Taimoor very right state has the capacity to deliver PIA was a success story till the state was willing to intervene when in 70s nationalized industry captains were sent to government sponsored to Harvard says Babar Ali I quote "to equip them to understand corporate culture and management while doing programm I (Babar) realized lahore needs a bussiness school I discussed came back and started looking for funding once again found support from state owned banks who were looking for training corporate methods and replace Seth culture " unqoute very informative discussion thanks again
In 1995 ❤ unbelievable
Ruined decline 2:15:59 thanks 🙏 mrs ghazanfar
1:34:36
1:41:30
1:30:00
oh yar great shazaad..i thought you would never call him! what took u soo long by the way .. yeh bhai bhi apni team ky hi hain😂😂😂
Also, if you count provincial expenditure, Pakistan spends more on education than on defense. It has not improved education.
35:55 situation nowadays 🙃
Excellent overview to the Pakistan Studies driven mad crowd.... Good one👌
🙌
Modern Educational institutions vs Madarasa Education systems ?
What about rational, scientific and secular Pakistan
In old times property/land was the basic thing for class formation. But in modern times factor like wealth, income, power, job, social status, religion, age, profession all contribute to social stratification.. So how just obolishing private ownership can finish class system and leads towards class less society?
Brother beautiful knowledge given we inshallah makes video is important
Thank you for doing this shahzad..
th-cam.com/video/DprbqZ2-2jY/w-d-xo.html
49:00 Heirachy
55:00 Nation state
1:00:00 misogynistic Aristortel
Anti Democratic plato
1:05:00 cause of creation of state
1:10:00 future of imagined commie Pakistan
1:19:00 state owned industry of commie pak
1:23:00 free market is "failure "
1:43:00 government owned education
1:52:00 scandenevia model
2:02:00 co operative model
2:11:00 argument for state regulations ( great point) anti libertarian argument
2:13:00 Uighur Muslim oppression
2:23:00 religion and communism
2:28:00 Chinese model
2:34:00 Chinese " imperelism"
Parenti is brilliant!!!!!!!!!
Absolutely. Wish more people were familiar with his work.
indeed
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02:41:10 thats what identity politics is all about
Private ownership of the means of production or industry seeks the patronage of the consumers to make profits so they innovate and provide better and cheaper products. Will the state ever do they when they know that consumers have no other choice to buy from? Any monopoly is bad for consumers whether it's is that of the state or private citizens. The monopoly of private sector can be easily broken when the state doesn't protect it.
Great podcast. Shehzad bhai can you do a podcast with Professor Slavoj Zizek?. That'd be great.
That would be the awesome podcast.
@@umayr2935 For sure.
@@ZAIN9858 th-cam.com/video/C2nDneZRaw0/w-d-xo.htmlm42s
Truly said
Railway Hospital 🏥 i
Till1969 was the only hospitals
2:10:06
ملکیت سے محروم سوسائٹی انسانی معاشرت میں کبھی بھی ممکنات میں نہیں ۔ وقتی ملکیت ضروری ہے انسانی محنت براۓ ذاتی محنت کیلئے وگرنہ یہ انسانی خصلت سے متصادم ہے ۔
Looking at Joy and Pleasure with a jaundiced view has nothing to do with History and/or Colonialism. The main reason is the Puritanical Morality in conjunction with segregation equates Joy and Pleasure with Sexuality!
In the '50s while i was growing up, we were still in the cusp of the British Morality, therefore less Segregation and more Joy that was not "immoral"!
This was really fun to watch and a great learning experience as well. It would be cool if you can find someone who is as strongly opposed and opinionated to Dr. Tamiur's ideas as he is to his own.
Also, get Fasi Zaka!
Slaam!
Thanks Shehzad
Hello, and in today's C programming session...
Abdullah, you know!
I have just started the podcast
First 10 minutes hi itny bombarstic ideas sy bhary huay hain
Just loving it.
BTW I was waiting for you you call him on podcast
Let's reveal the Marxist ideology today 👍🤞
This is so good! Shehzad should really rethink his private ownership hangup.
Amazing chat and perspective shared by Taimur, I found the host a little too driven by exceptions e-g considering govts are inherently ineffective and then persisting with notion, a few other instances where ideas were countered argued with events
Governments are ineffective because they're designed to be ineffective within a Capitalist system. They serve the wealthy feudal lords and Capitalists, they're lobbied to keep things to the lowest, to create a need for privatization.
_That's the standard technique of privatization: defund make sure things don't work, people_ _get angry, you hand it over to private capital_ ~ Noam Chomsky
@@aunthegeek5788 true, but is it not conceivable that an effective private public alliance is actually a hybrid of the existing models, best of capitalism, socialism and of course communism at its core? Govts inevitably take their lead from the governing/economic models, one could argue that a communist model through govt's intervention will curb entrepreneurship and all the advancements that come with it, if we took for granted that a commit govts do that. Same Noam Chomsky will be saying something to this effect for a communist society then.
Machines /tools and training.
In Europe education is free upto University level.And local transport is under Government
Consider making Pakistan like the magnificent Natural
Amish. Community ❤ 2:00:16 thanks 🙏 mrs ghazanfar
Inquilab Zindabad.
Communism in its current form is still deriving its logic from the period when privileges of capitalism was limited only to select few , however capitalism has evolved and communism hasn’t .
Hum sirf apney aap ko hi bech sakte hain!! Too good Shehzad 👏👏😂😂
Exactly, tabqati Nizam e taleem ko khatam Karne k liye it's important to nationalise the Education.
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Well-done!
Ap Dr Akbar Zaidi or Qaiser Bengali ky saath podcost kreen plz.
AND also dont forget orya maqbhool jan
😂😂
@@adeelakif6657 us chutya ko nhi.. Orya the bakwas.
We request in village we should open online working learning we should transfer skills in our small towns our mostly in dahat villages . We almost so used to be as thistle sadly we should demand for
Very refreshing point of view, power to the people! Having said that a bit too idealistic. Socialism with all its great intentions seems like a prime candidate for easy exploitation specially in a place like Pakistan. I cant imagine our state running industries successfully and would be very vary of handing even more control to anyone from any form of government here. Also didn't Bhutto kind of already try this? First requisite to any success is sincerity to a cause and Dr.Taimur sounds like he really believes what he is saying, he can barely contain his excitement! love that! But maybe I have grown a bit too pessimistic..
Our political leader should be honest who helps Incase he is not justice ⚖️ change needs to be our local reaches out problem
Tailor Sahib
There was a mzdoor leader name Abdal Rehman died in 1968
In kot lakhpat area Lahore.
What about ‘ROOTS’
MunawarMalik
End private education
Even son or daughter after retirement Job even very nonsense mean very lower skills education levels next time please be are full justice ⚖️ honestly delivery holly work done
It's sad that we have such a low tolerance for other beliefs or different school of thoughts. Why 95 % is only Muslims ? It's the main cause of slow progress. Look at Malaysia or Dubai if you are scared of change.
i m really disappointed by hearing his views regarding uyghurs genocide by china...
Sirs,if Pakistan becomes a communist state what will happen to Arab God,his messenger and the holy book ?
www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1906/12/x01.htm
Anarchism par baat chal rahi hai to I thought to share this reading.
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Concerns of the chattering classes re what is good education are very different from what Taimur is talking about, imparting basic skills.
Thirteen years of non local government by democracy
So 👗 local government ought to be .run by the military too 1:51:58
Re-education camps is one of the best idea of China. USSR also did this.
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